1209: Medinah Preview with Mike Cocking

[MUSIC] >> Be the right club today. [MUSIC] >> That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most, better than most. [MUSIC] >> Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the no-ling-up podcast. Sully here, we are back from the Netherlands and back ready to talk about another team golf event. The president's cup is next week at Medina. We brought on Mike Cocking from his design firm OCM to talk about the pretty dramatic renovation, not a restoration, re-imagination of Medina number three that we're going to see next week in great detail. We go through routing changes, a bunch of considerations to win into this. I think it's going to get us all prepared here for the president's cup. This episode is brought to you by our friends at Titleist Voki Design Wedges. The most played wedge on tour, a Voki SM 11 wedge fitting is one of the easiest ways to dial in your short game. It all starts with playing the right setup of loft, bounce, and grind and Voki offers an industry leading 27 combinations in the new SM 11 models. There's even more grind through Voki's Wedge Works program as well. But imagine trying to figure that out in your own 27 different combinations. You're probably not going to. Just go get a fitter. They're going to guide you through the different options, help you unlock cleaner contact, a more controlled flight, and a more optimal spin performance with your wedges. There's a reason my Voki wedges have been the most played on tour since 2004, and my eight of the top 10 in the OWG are play at least one Voki wedge. Head to titleist.com to find a fitting near you. Here's Mike Cocking. So people know Medina from hosting a rider cup, PGA's, and a lot of people might look at that golf course and not see or understand why it should be totally reimagined. I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised when it comes on their TVs. What were you tasked with at Medina? Take us into that process. I think it takes probably a lot of member buy, and I would think to completely re-imagine a place with that kind of pedigree. How does all that happen? Well, it was a fantastic board. I'm so the controlling group there were incredible. And I think they, I mean, if you think about it, they were probably one of the last country clubs to go through any sort of major renovation. It seems like all the big clubs in America have kind of done their restoration or renovation or whatever, choose to call it. And look, they realized that it was an incredible club with an incredible history. But the golf course wasn't as good as it could be. And I think perhaps some people probably weren't looking at the quality of the architect through itself and getting, you know, swayed by the history and all the various tournaments. And so they thought it could be a lot better. You know, when we went there, well, we actually, it was an interesting story, but we won that job during COVID. So we couldn't actually, we actually won it before getting there, which was strange. You know, I was like, I remember I was in Fort Worth. We were finishing Shadios because I was like on the last green. It's green to be changed and got an email from the course of print-in and saying, would you be interested in having a look at Madonna? And so, you know, you're obviously your, you know, emotions are like sky high. And no, this is fantastic. Start looking at the calendar. How can we get there? And two days later, got an email from the Australian government saying, if you don't come home now, you may never come home. So it was just like the highest of emotions to the lowest of emotions. It's like, well, we're not going to win the job now. So the club's credit, they were really patient. We came home, I had a really good friend in Chicago. And he, I asked him whether he could go to the club because you guys weren't closed at that stage who were, you know, it was business as usual in the US. So he offered to do some drone footage and I kind of spoke with him on the phone. I'm like, well, can you take a photo from here? Can you do some drone footage there? The club had this incredible collection of historical records and old aerials and plans. And so, and Jeff had played there as well. So he played in the PGA there with Tiger and Phil in like 2006. So crazy group. So we kind of had enough information to cobble together a pitch, basically. And the final piece we interviewed, we put together a lot of information and then we're really lucky that Shadeoaks was about to open. So we kind of arranged for them to visit Shadeoaks and they got to tour the course like the day before it opened. So it's in great condition. A couple of members of the board walked with them and could explain. They sort of acted on our behalf and were able to explain some of the philosophies and what we did and why we did it. And then yeah, we were lucky enough to win the job. So then we started putting together ideas from Australia because we still couldn't get there. And then finally, after about six or nine months, we got special approval by the government and actually and I went to the States for about six or eight weeks and spent three weeks at Medina with the members and doing course tours and presentations and kind of refining the concept. But you know, interestingly, the bones of the design, we really came up with in Australia. So we made some refinements when we got there, and we can talk about in a sec, but you know, we rerouted the whole sort of the last six holes. That idea came from our desktop here in Australia. Was there a surprising element? Like anything you were surprised by that didn't come through on the aerials or drone footage or just photographs? Well, there was a concerning element that was concerned that like, oh, I hope this is right. Because you know, sometimes that first day when you land, you get lagged, you're not thinking straight. And we've kind of asked, then I have this rule that you don't make any decisions on day one. Because it's like, you know, you're just not seeing things clearly. No, we were really lucky that because of all that drone footage, and we'd done so much, we'd never researched a job like it, to be honest, because that was our only way. Normally, we would default to, wow, we're going to spend time walking the course and we'll get to know the course. And we might have a loose concept, but we'd refine it in the field. Whereas this, we did most of that work from home. So we were lucky that when we got there, the holes looked as we thought they would look and they really weren't too many things that we might have made a challenge. What's we got there? It was just lots of little refinements. What was the state of it when you saw it? Because I, you know, again, when I was, I live in Chicago during the 2012 Ryder Cup, I went to that event and just getting to walk like when, as a, you know, kind of medium golf fan at that time, I was just amazed by the whole place. I didn't know anything about architecture at the time. I came back seven years later and played it. I was like, huh, that didn't really do a whole heck of a lot for me. I feel like it should have and I feel like it's really revered. Why didn't it? What was the state of the golf course that you saw and kind of what gave you the license to make as dramatic a changes that we're going to detail here in a second, but to make the dramatic changes that you guys were able to make? Well, I was easy to get caught up with the, like, I had a good, it had a great feel because it's such a big property, like it's got enormous scale for three courses, obviously. We're talking about Medina three and there's two or three 18 whole courses for the listeners. Yeah. Yeah. So the whole property is like 700 acres, but course three is 350 acres. So it's a big course and you've got these big sweeping contours, there's incredible trees. Like they've got some oak trees there from the early 1600s. I love that plaque that's on the one. Yeah, it's still there. I think Bebs oak. I think it is, but yeah, there's a couple there that, you know, I think, you know, well, predate Australia by 200 years. So. And so I had quite a good feel, you know, and a lot of contour, a big scale contour, which is sort of unique for a lot of the clubs in Chicago and then the lake, you know, Lake could either right in the middle of the golf course. So I think it's easy, even if you didn't know anything about architecture, it's easy to get swept up in that because it's got this big scale feel. But the irony was, you know, it's 350 acres, there were 24 acres of fairway out there. And I remember saying to the members that the presentation, I said to put it into context, and maybe this is too far the other way, but there's one fairway at mammoth dunes that has almost the same amount of total fairway. So it's like, so it was kind of you had this incredibly skinny golf course that was at odds with the big scale, you know, of the property. And so it was really, really hard for the average golfer. They played from the rough all day long. Meanwhile, it wasn't that hard for the tool players, you know, that people often talk about that BMW went just in Thomas shot 24 under and I've, it's been interesting. I've heard him talk about it and I don't think he likes getting sort of blamed with the reason that they renovated the golf course, but you know, to case in point, it wasn't that difficult for a tool player. So it was kind of, it was the complete reverse of what as architects were trying to do. And then, you know, it was, I guess it was the fashion at the time, like 90's, early 2000's, but a lot of the courses built by that firm kind of looked the same. The members joked that or the board joked that the greens were all alien heads. So if you looked at them from the air, it looked like an alien face. It was narrow at the front, wide at the back and there was a bunker left and a bunker right, which were the eyes. And if you looked at it from the air, there was like 13 greens that all looked the same. So kind of had, they didn't have that incredible. of a variety of some of our favorite golf courses. And then strategically, a lot of the holes were sort of a flip of what we like. We tend to build hazards on the inside corner of dog legs and build greens to favor a player around that position. Pretty classic sort of strategy 101, whereas a lot of the holes there, they had trees on the corner of dog legs, bunkers on the outside. Again, that made the holes really hard for the average golfer because they couldn't reach the corner of the dog leg. Meanwhile, Rory and JT and those guys just whiffed it straight over the trees and chipped on the grain. And then there was, they didn't really have a great short path for, they'd rebuilt a hole in the back nine, 15, which didn't really work as those, all our favorite short foes where there's five or six different options from the tee and sometimes it's confusing and you're not sure where's the pin, where's the wind, how am I playing? What do I do here today? That they didn't do that on that hole. They had like three par threes that will look the same, particularly 13 and 17, that would like next to each other, played in the same direction and they were just like carbon copies of each other. - I still have some. - Like by brainers, to which one is which. They're like, you see? - Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, and even two was straight across the water. It was played in the other direction, but it was, and the lake didn't really come into play, you know, it was just cool hazard, but it just kind of affected the average golfer 'cause usually you played kind of perpendicular to the water and good players, they know what, they know the yardage is so well, they're never gonna finish 15 yard short of a grain. So it's, they weren't, it wasn't hard for them, but really hard for the, you know, the 20 marker or 15 marker. So it's kind of, so there's a whole range of reasons why, you know, we felt, and they felt the time was right to kind of look at reimagining the golf course. And they were, yeah, they were an incredible club and board. They recognized that this wasn't a long lost McKenzie. There was no sort of old, you know, carbon plan in the top desk of the superintendent's office that showed, you know, this thing, you know, backer on an incredible sort of, you know, design that was never to be. It was a Tom Bendelow course that started as nine, it became 18, and there were probably four or five architects that changed it over the years, but there wasn't sort of a pedigree where you sort of could argue, let's go and restore it. But there were elements that we definitely were intrigued by that figured in the renovation, whether that was, there was some cool old aerials from the 30s that showed a really interesting, almost telling us like bunker style, you know, really golden age style, rugged, big sprawling hazards. They had, looked like they had a fence in play on old, old six, which was kind of the inspiration for what would be the fence on five, six, and seven, which we can talk about. So yeah, so elements, and there was a lot more fairway grass too. There was, you know, a wider fairway. So, you know, sometimes when you're talking about renovations with members, I think it resonates when you're trying to restore something, you know, you're not necessarily putting trin in part your, you know, your mark on the course. So there was, in the end, it was kind of this nice mix of, there was probably a third of the golf course was there were elements we wanted to restore. Maybe another third that holds kind of stayed as they were or certainly in the basic framework. And then there was another sixth that were major, you know, renovation rerout. So kind of appealed to all the sectors of the membership, you hoped to, the ones that wanted to blow it up and completely change it all the way through to the ones that said, there was nothing wrong with the course. We don't want to change too much. It's amazing because I've never, like I'd never laid eyes on it other than what I saw on TV prior to last year. I played there last year with, actually with Ryan Pots was on the committee. Oh, yeah. And then, and then I played there again this year. And so that, like that's all that exists in my head. So I saw, so I've only seen the current iteration. And I can't even fathom the other, you know, previous iteration of it. And so I came back last year and I was like, man, like that was so much fun. That was a blast. I had all these kind of half shots. And it just made me think all day. And the Greens were, it's so much going on. And Sally was like, what are you talking about? Did we play the same golf course? I was like, I did not play the same golf course. Honestly, I'm so scarred to shoot out from it. I was like, yeah, they're going to redo it. I'm like, okay, but it's still like not going to be good. And like you got, you came back and just because like, that's my image of Medinas. It's just like, I don't know what you do with that. But that, that, that's kind of where I was starting with that. You guys had so much license to, you know, push the envelope a little bit. And we can talk about some of those bold choices. But it sounded like, listen to your interview with Garrett Morson as well in terms of like, there was a, on top of, and I want to talk about how agronomy relates to all of this as well and trees and whatnot. But it sounded like the place wasn't draining well to begin with and was going to, whatever they were going to have to do was going to cost a fortune anyway. And, and, you know, over, kind of overseeing a big redesign of it, you say, you might as well do it. If you're going to have to replace the drainage as it stands. Yeah, that's right. They had to, they really had to rebuild the golf course purely from a drainage point of view. Like, yeah, there was no major drainage system out there. So when it, when you had big storm events, the fairways just flooded, you couldn't play it. Like, even the Greens drainage would go out to like a catch basin. But there was no outlet. So I didn't actually go anywhere. So just, so they had to, they had to go around with pumps and pump out of the pits like after rain events. But this is a, you know, major club in America, you know, cart, even things like cart paths were all trashed. Irrigation system, well, you know, an irrigation system these days is four million bucks minimum straight off the bat. And then, yeah, there was treework, shade issues, agronomically, the Greens were sort of too small. They had to be rebuilt. The profiles were no good. So you kind of, yeah, you go through it and it's, it makes the conversation with the members a little easier if it's like, well, you know, you can spend the next amount and do nothing architecturally or just spend a little bit more for really no extra inconvenience and have a much better golf course. So has your process changed at all? Having gone through the process of reviewing this site and this course and this project site unseen and, and from a far, did that yield any, any kind of big learnings or any big takeaways that you've taken forward of, hey, you know what? This is actually a best practice and we should, we should kind of utilize this moving forward. Yeah, it has a little bit. We'd probably spend more time now doing some work on the topo and particularly with the renovation before visiting, whereas in the past, we would tend to wait until we got there and spend time on site. We're actually just, we're doing a big project north of Toronto at a, at a course that used to be called Taboo. So it's an eight-end-hole golf course and we're turning it into two courses. And that was an interesting process because in doing the routing, we basically wanted to forget that there was a golf course there to try and get the most out of it. So that was kind of a good example where I think spending too much time on site actually would have been, would have been a negative because you wouldn't be able to forget the holes. You know what I mean, you almost want to, like once you see them, you can't unsee them. And we actually wanted to forget there there and just purely look at it as a one, it's a beautiful property, but one incredible property. And then kind of figure out, okay, if there wasn't a golf course here, what would that look like? And then we sort of switched on the aerial and there were sections of holes that were still part of the new design in a couple of areas. And so we incorporated them in, but we, yeah, we didn't want to look too hard at the course prior. So take us to the what will be the closing stretch for the members. And as I understand it, I haven't confirmed this, but is it right that the presence cup is going to start on the fifth hole? Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So as I say that, that's to give you some confusing hole numbers for what people should expect here. But the final six holes, the golf course were rerouted as the members route would have it. Now those holes were bumped up in that routing so that more matches will get to them. But take us to what that finishing stretch was and kind of what people will see that's drastically different. Yeah, so I guess the idea of the rerout all came all started with what was the old 17th hole, which was the past three. You remember, probably remember, it figured in most of the matches in 2012. I'm going to run away too well. Way, way, way too well. Blow that hole up. I hope this is something like that. It was such a good wake, wasn't it? For whatever reason, our eye just kept moving to the right and looking down the lake because the lake just sat on this really interesting diagonal and staring at what was then the 14th T's, which was the path four, the path five, sorry, that you played back across the water, it just looked like a really interesting short path four. And it was like, huh, you know, and there were just trees in the way. It was a hole that you could almost build. And we thought, could this be the great short path four? It was like a k-pole. And that kind of was the start of it. And there was also an old plan in the 30s that showed the original 17th played along the water, rather than over the water. And we thought, well, if we could try and, you know, try and get a bit more variety in the path trees, you know, that would be that would be part of the puzzle. So we ended up, the 12th hole was a great hole. It was kind of famously bunkerless. We ended up putting two backbunkers. behind the green, but it's essentially mudclips. And then as you come off the twelfth, you used to play across the water towards what is now the 18th fellow, just to confuse everyone. But instead we played alongside the water, so we played to the left. So that's new 13. Slightly blind, there's a couple of different teas from the left tea, the greens completely blind from the right tea, you can see it. But this plays into the predominant wind. They didn't really have a short par three. We liked the idea of having a kind of a nine iron or wedge or eight iron sort of par three. And you have to really deal with flooding the ball because it's always played into the wind. It's easy to lose it right, hit the bank and roll down the water. So that was new 13 and then you walk to the top of the hill and play 14, which plays down the old 14th fairway, but the green pushed way back sort of halfway down the what was then the short par four 15th. Then the next hole is the old 16th, which is basically a similar sort of format to what it was. That was the hole that Sergio hit from behind the tree. That tree's long gone, pride of us, but it's still a very memorable shot for people, you know, our age. And then then you walk up the hill to play this k pole, this par four along the water. Really interesting hole. And one of the things we were wrapped with and it's unfortunate that it's not evident with the presence cup order, but we love one through 18 because all this drama is building around the lake as you finish like there's so much action around the lake. And to have a short par four as your third last hole, it's like perfect time for a hole like that, you know, you're one down in your match or you're playing well or you need a birdie or whatever it is. And there's so many different t-boxes too, like they're they can set it up so many different ways as well. Yeah, which is interesting because you can you can make it short enough where you're thinking about trying to drive the green or if you play from back, it's more of a it's more how much the water do I want to take on? Do I want to leave myself with a nine nine or six on? There's a nice edge really front right pin there. But is that little bump in the green that we added in? Yeah. And it's really deceptive. It's interesting how you think it's it looks shorter than it is. Like it's actually quite a long way across the water and you sort of you you leak your drive just a little bit and you shore it over the fairway, but the number over the edge of the hazard, but the number of times you see it splash is really interesting. And then so it's it's the short four or the short to medium four and then we played back across the water with 17 again, kind of the water's on a diagonal. So this is a completely new hole. This took a bit of imagination because it was sort of a forest behind, it's basically butteen behind the twelfth green. And then 18 the original 18th you played up this corridor. So we actually kind of reinstated the original corridor. So it plays you know in the same just next to the first fairway, but from back across the water. So we kind of introduced the water carry again which they'd lost with the changes to the old 14th. And you play it pretty much to the same green site with the flag behind the green. And then we were left with all this space where the old 18th fairway was. And it's a cool entry because you used to see golf and so we wanted to reintroduce golf. So we ended up building a like a five hole short course and a big pudding green near the driveway which has been fun for you know if people want an extra hour or hour and a half of golf after they ran or they got kids or you know there's a lot of families that play at my diner so it's been popular within. So that was kind of the that was sort of the genesis of the last six. So cool it's so much yeah it's like it you know I just I feel weird because I have an I to be critical of golf courses and I have no I to actually how to improve them. And like I just listened to you explain how each hole works and what you did I'm like oh that makes perfect sense but I could have never come up I would have just that's not what my I see that's not how I take golf courses in so I love I love just hear the process of how it works. Well then it's like it's cool too on the number outing because you get like on like two is a part three across the water like you're introduced to it kind of right away and then you've got was 13 kind of an unlock as well playing 13 was a bit of an unlock here and that was yeah 13 and 16 I would say with the two that sort of unlocked everything and it was funny we when we were presenting so again this was presented from Melbourne and because you could kind of sense that the club were getting not frustrated but you know every month went by we couldn't travel anywhere and it was like you know and I felt like it was starting to get to and I'm I'm sure if you asked Ryan he would probably say the same but you could kind of just sense that we're starting it to the point where it's like we need to get there so to kind of stretch time we said well why don't we present six holes at a time our initial thoughts our initial concepts so we did that online again without seeing the course but we were somewhat confident that you know these are these ideas weren't necessarily meant to be locked in stone but to give them a good idea so we sort of did the first six and they really liked them but I remember yeah Ryan saying afterwards we were sort of hoping they were a little bit more sort of the guys that wanted to see major change we're sort of hoping for a little bit a little bit more so then then we did the second six but at the end of the presentation we said look we've got an idea here and we're not sure how you feel about it but we kind of wanted to give them a peek behind the curtain and so we put up on the screen this reroute idea and you could just see their eyes kind of light up because it ticked all these boxes that they were hoping for you know that the change in the path 3 is the short path 4 you know after we really found out this later but straight after the meeting they went out on the course and they walked it they walked to the reroute and they loved it and so then the feedback was yeah keep going down that path and so then we kind of worked up that concept and bought you some more time to write and bought us some more time or the plan to be music to your ears like you're probably you know do more is kind of like okay if you want me to I got ideas here usually you guys are the ones stopping me but I got more in the tank yeah well and it shows what you know that's how great they were as a client you know that they were open to all these things they just they just wanted the best golf course they could have shoot nice starting point if you live somewhere where it gets cold in the winter your golf season is about to end I'm sorry to report that but there are ways you can make gains in your golf game in this off season I promise you if you go to the stack system dot com slash NLU use code no laying up at checkout you will come back in the next golf season with a faster swing speed an easier swing speed it will be easier for you to reach whatever your your fastest level is right now you can turn that into your median level of golf swing it will dramatically dramatically improve your muscle movement and this is this is me ad libbing this you've ever been talking about this for several years now I had unbelievable gains when I was really committed to it in 2024 I have a much busier lifestyle now but I'm still quite committed to it my grit score is taking a little bit of a hit but when I do go play golf I'm amazed at how fast my golf muscles how how my golf muscles still feel like they're there I've been moving a little bit the 15 minute stretching routine has just been great for my overall physical body health it's a great workout overall and I look forward to doing it I set my schedule and when I'm home I do not miss my stack workouts and I've got the speed gains to prove it my favorite thing about it is when it feels like I'm swinging like 80% on the golf course now the ball still goes I don't know how but it goes it's science Dr Sasha McKenzie can explain it a lot better than than I could you can check out the podcast episodes we've done with him for details on how it all works or just go to the stack system dot com slash NOU use code no laying up get the stack bundle come back next year swinging it faster back to the pod I think another thing I mean you know we're going to see a lot of this golf course here as of next week as we were releasing this and five is one of the holes I've seen that is most photographed are most different in terms of you we're going to see the before and after of that I assume on the broadcast as well and that's going to be the opening hole and presence cup cups actually do have a great reputation I think for having kind of a really nice fun atmosphere opening hole and I think it's going to be really cool to see that to start but take us to your use of defense lines on what will be one and two what are five and six on the member routing of this golf course and kind of what goes because I know I know out of bounds is going to get my my co-host here pretty excited oh it's like my favorite underutilized feature in golf yeah it's just really simple and the way that you place the bunkers up the right and you know that that kind of interplay is just yeah it's like it's it's simple but not easy stuff which is brilliant it's finding that isn't it that like I mean as Australians we typically when we were juniors and playing competitively would always go to the UK and we played because we could have funded trips there I think that was it it was like a breach of amateur status to go to the US so we always tended to go to the British amateur and play all the events there and when you've played a lot in the UK the use of out of bounds is just part of the yeah part of the design of so many golf courses I mean most of the back nine at the old course you know you're dealing with the out of bounds there but holes like the first at press week and you know tune and Ross and George's and like there's this it's so common and yet you know through the process we realized that it's not that common in the US and so people would sort of question a little bit even the tour and you know the the genesis though of that was those holes out the back there were really plain if they're probably it's the flattest part of the golf course you know you're away from from the forest today. areas in the lake. And so that kind of lacked a bit of an identity. It was like it was just a bit blar, sort of out near the boundary. And then we found this, you know, I said before the club had this great collection of historical photos and aerials and things. And there was this incredible photo that we think was the fifth green of people putting out and you could clearly see right against the green, you could see this fence, this metal sort of fence. And then on the old bendel our plan, there was a tea immediately behind the fifth green, which looked like it played up the boundary. And so it looked like they were kind of using the boundary as, you know, as a hazard. And I kind of feel like this was a bolder move than the last six to be honest. But we thought, well, do we reintroduce that? Like they had some issues with six and seven, they played right against the fence. You couldn't screen the boundary. You could see cars and houses, but they were lucky they had all this space in land. So we kind of shifted the holes in land a lot. But then, and we'd moved them away from the fence. But then it was like, well, what do we now do as a hazard? And then we thought, well, yeah, I mean, from a tournament perspective, it made sense to have a perimeter road. We wanted a room to plant trees. But we kind of thought, what could we reintroduce the idea of a boundary fence and just build like a post neural fence? And there wasn't really any pushback from the club. And we thought, well, that would introduce a new theme to this sort of bland section of the golf course. Suddenly, you had the forested areas and the lake areas, but you've got this three-hole stretch with the out of bounds. So that was kind of where it started from. We wanted to mean to us, you know, for it to be an effective hazard, you've got to have the playing surface right up hard against it. So we ran the fairway all the way to the fence on five as the whole you were talking about, John. And the idea there was, it's a short par five, the bunkers kind of, if you, if you flare one right away from the fence, you shot to the green is blind. And you're coming across the green at an angle with a lot of bunkers right of the green and the boundary fence immediately height behind the green. So it's kind of, it's a pretty simple strategy. If you drive it up the left, you're just hitting straight up the green. Six sort of similar, but the gap between the bunkers on the right and the fence is about 30 yards. But if you play short of it, it's probably 70 yards. You're pointed right at it off the tee, too. Whereas five, you're more like playing alongside the fence where you're playing towards the fence on six and it all really put the fear of God into you a little bit. And six were, yeah, we wanted that green hard up against it. So, you know, we're hoping that it would be well received. There was a few questions at different times about I shouldn't it be, you know, what if it was 10 yards further back, but it's like, but if it's 10 yards further back, it's not safe. I mean, it's not the same thing that would be like growing 10 yards of rough on the 18th of pebble. I would hope that it would be well received to be honest with you. I would hope it would make people uncomfortable. That's kind of the point, right? It is the point. Yeah. And look, fortunately, there's been a lot of people that have played their sense of their innovation and they loved it. But that was one we were a little bit, be interesting to see how this is received. It reminds me a little of the second hole at talking stick. And I forget which course it was. I don't know if you've seen it or referenced it. But like, I think about that hole all the time. That's a Bill Corbin Crenshaw golf course there. It's a par five that the Greek is nothing piece of land. Yeah. It's completely flat. And I think about it all the time because it's like the most fair golf hole the green is there's OB all down the left. And you got a few, if your T shot goes way far right, that means you're looking right at the OB as you're approaching the green. But if you drive it, take on the risk off the tee, you're hitting alongside of it. And it just, it feels inherently so fair and feels like I feel like when when even pros get to a hole like this, they're going to have to make some pretty clear decisions, maybe not a club, maybe a, you know, par five guys are going to pull drivers. But on how much risk they want to take on because the penalty is not, oh, I just go into the rough and hack it out. The penalty is, I got to reach into my bag and get another golf ball. That just seems like it drives real strategy for every golfer that would play it. Yeah. And then there's a nice line about that hole that talking stick where, you know, at some point on your journey down the hole, you have to deal with the boundary fence. Like you can give it too much, you can give it a little attitude off the tee. But to your point, the second shot, you're aiming straight at it. And you can, with your second shot, you can play away from the fence if you really want. But then the third shot, you're going to have to be playing straight at it or it's a difficult pitch across the bunker with the boundary fence behind. And, and that's what, yeah, I just think, you know, out of bounds like that is so underutilized in design because to your point, it's not, it's not the same as water, you know, if, if that was just a water hazard, you can find two or pro still taking dead aim at the green because they know that if, you know, they can drop a ball up there, but you can't do that with the boundary fence. It puts more pressure back in the failure as to whether you really want to take that shot on. It's like, what's that whole at, uh, lawns del links, you guys, it's 16. Yeah, yeah, you can go for this if you want, but you go along left. You're, you are reteeing. I mean, it's, it's it's very black and white decision. Did that happen to you if I remember that? I really do remember that, but, yeah, that's out of bands era. And we're going to talk about some of your, of course, your sand belt experience and everything. But what, what, what, what is it like working to create the right agronomic conditions on pieces of land like this? You guys are afforded a ton of benefits on the sand belt in terms of being able to create fast and firm surfaces. This is quite different. What can you do to achieve firmness you'd like and what, you know, I'm saying, what kind of limitations do you have? I think we're not expecting sand belt level firmness. Of course, but what can you do and what did you do to get yourself, you know, to get it as much as optimal of playing conditions as you possibly can? Yeah, we worked very closely with the superintendent there. And they had a couple of consultants involved as well. The grains are all, you know, sort of a modified USDA style grain. So the improved drainage, they're actually a variable depth green that's called, which may or may not have heard about, but it's where you vary the profile to try and get consistent sort of moisture. So traditionally high points like mounds on a green would dry out quickly. So if you reduce the amount of growing medium underneath it, it makes it, it increases the amount of moisture as compared with a section of the grain that's flat. And then if you've got a big hollow, you do the reverse, you actually increase the amount of it. And then, you know, a lot more drainage added, we didn't go to the extent of like sand capping or anything like that. Everyone felt quite comfortable that the soil was there were good. But you are, the reality is you're still exposed. You know, I mean, the key with making, of course, that whole, making it, you know, playable for the average member and hard for the tool pro and adding more fairway and short grass around the greens is, you know, it's one of the ways to achieve that. But the final piece in the puzzle is firmness, you know, getting the greens and the greens around firm. Because that just puts so much pressure on someone back in the fairway. You know, if you've got a raised green with short grass peeling off all around it and really firm conditions, it's not like the traditional park lane courses where they can just take dead aim at the flag. And if they miss it, they've just got an easy chip, you know, if the conditions are right, you miss that shot near 30 or 40 yards away, and then you've got all sorts of interesting recovery shots. So the firmness is key. And look, you know, there's, I mean, if you think about Augusta and remember the, the COVID masters, that November masters, you know, remember campsmith almost plugged the three would next to the pin on 15. So even a course like Augusta, which has got everything thrown at it to, you know, they got sub air and the whole, you know, the whole light. If you get a two or three inch storm just before the event, unfortunately, it's there's not much you can do. But they've certainly got, if we just have a nice lead up to the tournament, they've got the ability to dial that in and make it play, you know, fairly firm and fast, I would say. Well, within the limits that what, you know, probably the tool, which we'll come up with. How much was the like one of the biggest things I noticed going back one year later was how much all the, the heather and long grasses have come in. Yeah. How much was that a part of the plan as well of just adding that texture and kind of that visual element. Yeah, it was a big part. We just, it just felt so, you know, the, it was three hundred and fifty acres of lush green cut rough, you know, just was just this monotone of green out there and we felt it would really benefit from some longer, uh, browned off kind of fast, you different colour, but also different texture. So we added about sixty acres. So they went from zero to sixty. Um, we were pretty careful. We didn't want to bring it in everywhere because we were concerned that if there was pushback from the members, you know, long rough has the potential to, if people get frustrated, I've seen it before where they just end up cutting all the rough across the golf course and you're back to square one. So I think with long rough introducing long rough like that, you just want to sort of creep up on it. So we started in fifty or sixty. Now in post post tournament, we talked about converting a few more areas. So then that might sort of, that number might creep up. But I felt it also makes a tool as well. Like it's used on six to to keep you honest as far as, all right, you want to bail out to the right. Cool, you're going to have to deal with this up there right now. It's like six, seven, eight, that stretch of the golf course, I felt like the long grass really added a little bit more, just more structure to the side of the hole that doesn't have all the hazards on it. - Yeah, and that's a feature of that flat section. So that was an oak savannah, like prior to the golf course being there, it was sort of oaks up on the high ground and then just these fields of sort of native grass. So we liked that, again, that was sort of adding, that's the character of that section of the course, is that it's more the long, the long fescue, the out of bounds fence and these sort of oaks up on the high hill. And I guess from a purely from like a conservation point of view, those long ruffs you don't irrigate. So we were able to reduce the amount of heads out there. So suddenly we're not, there's 60 acres of rough that aren't being irrigated that previously were. - I think for some people they would see, they remember 2019, Justin Thomas 25 under, and then they hear that you came in and widened the fairways and think that those two things, maybe you know, maybe you should narrow it more and grow more trees and grow more rough. We've talked about this a lot over the last decade on this podcast, but I never tire of hearing other people explain that much better than I can as to why the width philosophy does and can make sense in the right circumstances and why that's an architectural, I guess, style that you preach pretty evangelicalically like the rest of us do. - Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of golf courses out there, I think that you can point to that and Augusta's a great example of really wide fairways, but with firm conditions and very clever greens that use tilt and slope and you know, and they've got a sparing use of bunkers, but really well positioned bunkers. I mean, it's such a brilliant way of, it's still very challenging for the, you know, for the best golfers to the point where they can almost dial in the tournament winning score at the start of the week, it would seem, and yet it's fun for the average members. At Medina, you know, I think from zero, from the T through to 250 yards, it doesn't really matter how wide you make it. It's not affecting the two-player. So we felt like there was an opportunity to widen the fairways leading back to the T's, there's a bunch of holes there where the fairway goes all the way back to the T. So there was opportunities to make it wider without nowhere where the better players were hitting it. But then, you know, we just felt, and you know, you see it around the sand belts as well. The quality of greens there could be improved a lot and just by using angle and tilt to really emphasize the correct position on the fairway and the incorrect position. We felt that they could handle more with, you know, 40 or 50 yards and we penalised the good players sort of more subtly by being in the wrong angle and having a really difficult shot into the green. The green surface tilting away and some big buck 'cause, you know, perhaps between you and the whole. So it was, yeah, and I guess the other point is around the greens, you know, we find that you see it a lot less so now, but the traditional Parkland sort of US Parkland course would have rough around the greens and it just led to such a one-dimensional style of recovery play. It's just a lob wedge or a sandwich, every day is the same. And, you know, even when the pins were tight, those guys, they would never not consider flying at the pin because if they missed it, it would only finish two or three yards off the green and it was for them, it was a relatively easy chip back. So we would much prefer to see short-grass extending off the green, particularly if the green top's elevated and start to introduce different options with recovery play. It's great for the average golfer, they can always pull a putter, but for a better player, the ball finishes further away from the target and you end up with really some interesting options, whether it's a bump and run or a three-wood chip or a part or a lob wedge or a sandwich. And, you know, irrespective of whether it's easier or harder, it's just more interesting. You know, it's just chopping out of rough. It's just such a boring way to play the game. So there were sort of different areas where we felt it could handle more fairway. And, to be honest, it's not like it's incredibly, I think there's 55 acres now of fairway or 60 acres of fairway. So it's not like it's crazy wide. Arguably, it's a more sensible width. It was two now for, it was only 24 acres of fairway. So I'm, yeah, I think I'm not sure. I mean, I had to answer that question. - There's certain holes too. Like I think 10's a good example or 15, where like the whole angle's a certain way and you still run the risk of being blocked out by a tree or by, you know, like there's still some things going on that it's like, it's not just thoughtless off the tee. You're trying to earn an angle up one side of the fairway or another and, you know, trying to take on a little bit of risk to do so. - Yeah, and it's interesting. We played last year, we had a couple of days there with the international team. So Jeff had the guys there, probably, well, probably 12 of the group, like the short list. And we spent two days playing the course and it was really interesting 'cause one of my favourite holes there is the eighth, eighth is the members player, the short puffer. And that green is a skinny green that's really heavily tilted from right to left. So you have to up the left side close to those bumpers to get a good angle in. And there's quite a lot of space to the right, but it's a really difficult pitch. And these guys, there's, you know, 12 of the best players in the world and they just couldn't figure it out because they're like, yeah, there's, you know. - No, you just keep trying. - Yeah, they kept trying to hit driver. And it's like, have you considered that like maybe hitting a forearm or something? And that concept was like the moon, you know, was like, what do you, you know, but, but, but I don't want to be able to hit my driver. And it's just interesting and you get, it's easy to be critical of it, but then you sort of think through it and it's like it just doesn't happen that many times on tour where they, where they have to, you know, really think about there's this three or four different options here and I've got to think about where I position my ball. They're just so used to fairly soft conditions, hit the ball as far as I can. If I'm in the semi-refer, it's not that difficult to pitch shot. So. - So overwhelmingly that's the smart move on tour, right? And that's how your brain gets programmed. And I think that's where some of the super nerdy data guys and some of us that like a little bit of the artistic side might get in some back and forths of like, yeah, the data is going to like clearly show this is what you should do. But there's nuance when things get firm and there's nuance to really well designed golf holes. And the wind direction might change exactly what your strategy should be. And if it's, even if it's a crosswind of some ways the only way to get to a certain quadrant of the green might be from a certain side of the fairway. And that's where golf gets fine, I think. - Three to both playing and watching. - Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. - Yeah, absolutely. And that, you know, to your firmness question, that's when you add firmness into the equation that's when it becomes truly three-dimensional because then you're starting to think about landing a ball 20-hour short. And if you've chosen to kind of have a hollow or a little bit of movement short of the green, then you've got to start thinking about flight. It's not just length. It's not just, you know, I know I hit this 155. It's like suddenly, you've got to land at 135, but it's how much spin is the ball got? What's the angle of approach? That's when it starts to get really interesting. - Interesting to us, anyway. - Now is the time to visit Pinehurst Resort. At the cradle of American golf, Pinehurst is more than fame number two in anchor sight of the US Open. It's Tom Doek's Masterful number 10. Four historic hotels and newly built luxury cottages at Pinehurst number eight. The one-of-a-kind title is shop at Pinehurst and the new Peter Miller shop. A trio of dynamic dining experiences in station 21, plate and the upcoming wiregrass. Pinehurst blends timeless charm with the very best in the game today. Visit pinehurst.com to plan your stay back to the pod. - Solid, you're going to love eight. I think eight's my favorite hole in the course. Like a gasp of a salt. Man, it's just brilliant. - It's fun. - Yeah. - I guess transitioning to your career at large and just I think you're background in Australia and then bringing that over to the States. Tell us a little bit about Shady Oaks. Was that your first commission here in the States and how did that come about? - Yeah, that was our first, that was the start of it. And yeah, we'd pitched on the job at Trinity Forest in sort of South Dallas. In sort of 2014, how am I gonna say? And I flew over and Jeff and I went there and met the client and I came up with a, did a routing and a concept and they really, they loved it. And my understanding is that was their preferred concept but at the last minute Bill and Ben, I think they really wanted Bill and Ben, you know, for a number of reasons, make sense. And so the, and at the last minute, Bill and Ben were interested in the project. So they won the job. But we stayed in contact with the client, stayed friends and I heard through a contact that Shady Oaks were looking to renovate. And I rang our contact that Trinity Forest and he happened to be standing next to Bill Call in a bunker and they were chatting and Bill said, I know that. a pro at Chadio, some good friends with him and I'm like, right, I'll give him a call. The hearing Mike and suggested they look at us and I heard from Mike, we flew over there, spent the day with the committee out on the course and put together a proposal and we won the job and I still think about, I mean, it was a major sliding doors moment. Maybe we would have made our way to the US anyway, but we won that commission, we ended up doing the work just before COVID and sort of that trip I was talking about, we're actually an eye cam over for six or eight weeks, well that was to sort of consolidate the plan and our relationship with Medina, but on that same visit we went and had a look at a property south of Georgia which became the fall line and I just feel like if we hadn't have gone on that trip, maybe the fall line would never have happened, maybe Medina would have gone to another architect, maybe we'd still be in Australia, maybe we'd have no work in America, I'm not sure, but it was, it was so critical and then sort of in very quick succession we started winning other work and we got a new commission for a course in Minnesota which is called Teppi Tonco which we opened just a couple of weeks ago we were there playing with the members which has turned out great and then sort of a number of other new commissions or renovations, now we sort of, I guess there's about 15 or 16 clients we have in the US and Canada, looked at a couple of projects in Europe, doing a couple of big projects in New Zealand and then we're still busy in Australia, so it's just very interesting how it's all, it's all occurred, it's funny I was telling a story to someone the other day, not that I'm, I don't think about these things all the time, but it was this amazing moment where I was at home, I was waiting for the phone to ring about the job at Shadiaks and I don't know whether it's serendipitous or not, but I was, my kids were really young and I was trying to, I was home with them and I'm like waiting on this call and it's like, and that as I'm sure you're aware, looking after kids, that can always be an awkward moment when you've got a client about to ring and they're yelling and screaming, "Sally's got three kids under two and a half, so I'm preaching the choir here." And I had, I put on a cartoon and I was sort of trying to keep them occupied because I was expecting Mark right to ring and I wasn't sure whether he was ring to say we didn't have the job or maybe we did have the job and I put on up, which is a great cartoon, you know, a Pixar movie and there's a scene in it where they're trying to convince the old man to go and do this retirement home and it's like leading up to this moment and I'm looking at my phone and it's like 759 and he said he's going to call it eight and I'm like giving them food, I'm trying to make them comfortable and I looked at the screen and the guy throws into the old man's hand this brochure for their retirement home and he opens up the brochure and it's called Shadiaks Retirement Home. The second he opened it, my phone rang and it was my cry. That's incredible. And I looked at the TV and I'm like, oh my god. And then I'm like, well this has to be good news. Sure, sure enough, he was ring to say we had the job. So Shadiaks is such a good incredible. I feel like that's such an incredible property to have, like as your first project here in North America because I think it's, it's just under the radar enough and just almost mysterious enough for the general public to be like, oh man, like you kind of keep hearing about, man, you got to see what they did over at Shadiaks and it really just kind of peaks your curiosity, I think. Yeah, it really was that it was our, it was the perfect first project for us. Great club, great membership underutilized, nice bit of land but underutilized and it's kind of all the things we, you know, that's how bread and butter is renovation work. That's certainly what we've done a lot of in Australia and in all the holes there could be made better without too much controversy, you know, we did a bit of tree removal, a lot more short grass, you know, interesting bunker style, better set of greens. And yeah, I remember Mike Wright actually saying, you know, he actually said, I think it was a good thing that you didn't get the job at Trinity Forest because our concept for that property, well, they were limitations because it was a landfill but our concept was fairly similar to what Bill and Bended and, you know, it's, I guess it's been a little bit polarising that style, of course, in that area and his thought was that we might get pigeonholed as to that's kind of the work that we did. And I think, I think it's probably right. I mean, it would have been a great job to do but I think Shadiaks to your point was sort of, it was the perfect entrain to the US. And yeah, it does, it kind of flies under the radar. It's such a cool place because of the Hogan connection, particularly, you know, that it's one of those courses that everyone's aware of. And it's just a really nice experience going there and play. So I still, for me, so go ahead. So no, I was just going to say for me, going back there, it's still, it's like a second home, you know, I love going back there. This is so many good memories there. Were you worried at all or did you face this at all of getting, feeling like you were getting pigeonholed into being the renovation specialist and not, not getting a lot of the looks at completely green sheet, totally original projects? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And there's just not many new projects in Australia that happen too. So, you know, we were quite well known for our renovation work here. And I think that's why the fall line was such an important job for us. You know, it was, you know, because really the only time you get to showcase your ability to route a golf course on New Land, you know, because it's up to you to how you want the golfer to experience the property. And that's a, you know, and even to set up the sort of the cadence of the golf course, and what are you trying to, the goes beyond just the basic design of holes, which you never really get to do on a renovation. So the fall line was so important for us, such an important job. And now we're really lucky that we've got this nice mix in the US of new and renovation. So I don't feel like now we're pigeonholed too much. It's kind of the perfect balance because we still enjoy renovation work and restoration work with, but yeah, we've also got this ability to, yeah, sort of half a dozen new projects. So can you describe the fall line for a lot of listeners that are probably unfamiliar with the project? Yeah, sure. So it's two hours south, due south of Atlanta, which if you know Georgia, there's not much down there. They're all sort of hunting properties. Guy by the name of Bert Guy, reached out. Care is sort of the character. From Alabama, he's a lawyer. We've become really good friends. And he's very good friends with Gill Hans, so they've known each other for a long time. And Bert's now sort of doing, and he's kind of assembling these, you know, he's connecting architects with clients and property, you know, and he's done this a few times now. And yeah, we, I went to the office one day and there was a voice recording on the anti-ming machine, and I don't really, we don't have an office anymore, but back then I didn't go very often. And I'm lucky I did. And it was just Bert Guy and I rang him back and sort of explained who he was and whether we're interested in having a look at this property and Gill very kindly had recommended. He'd done a hoopy and this was just a bit too close to a hoopy. And he had some very nice things to say about us, and that's how we got sort of connected. So they weren't, they didn't really go to other architects. So we visited there. It was 1500. Well, there was three properties we looked at. And in the end, Ashley and I felt that this one particular property was, was best suited. It was 1500 acres. They had to buy a neighbor's property to create the 1500 acres. And the lady that owned the site, she was a real character, had all these signs on the front fence, like intruders will be shot, you know, don't come in here. There's like video cameras and it's like, what have we got into here? Welcome to South Georgia. Oh yeah. But she was brilliant. And she just lost her husband and actually and I ended up staying with her for probably the first years of the project. And it was, she was like a surrogate mother to us. So she had had an interesting history and her husband actually built the first general Lee from Jigs and Hazard. He was like a panel beta. Yeah. So interesting truth. So anyway, so, yeah, this 1500 acres, it's called the fall line because it's like a geographical term. It was the edge of the shoreline and it extended from Columbus to kind of Augusta. It's his deep profile of sand up to 200 feet of sand. And this property is just nicely undulating, not steep, not severe, kind of broad contour is 50, 60 feet contours, long leaf pines, and sort of this low scruffy native sort of grasses and plants that looked a bit like the sand belt vegetation or maybe the heafland in London. So a really nice property. And you know, I think early days, I'm not sure the client's really knew what it was going to be. They wanted, they wanted a great golf course, similar sort of structure to something like a hoopy private. And so we got to work, we're after pitching for the project, we won the job and we started on routing 18 holes. And it was an interesting property because it was very spread out. And there was a really interesting piece to the lake. left or to the west, interesting bit in the middle and an interesting bit to the east. Prom was, that was too big to fit 18 holes on. So we pitched the idea of 27. And we had this idea that the middle nine had some alternate tees and things. So you could play 36, so you could basically play the western 18 which would be the middle nine and the western nine or you could play the eastern 18 which would be the middle nine and the eastern nine. And we really liked this idea, they liked it, we started clearing, we started building. And then like as we're, as we're building holes, they're like, well, we feel like there's a bit more golf out there, you know, more cowbell, they said, that was a Saturday Night Love reference. And so we hung on to the concept though, to the right to the end where the first hole, we love this idea that there were two, there was sort of, it was like a wisehaped hole. And so two team positions, but a single green and we liked to this side. So we had 35 holes and we loved this idea that you played the first and then there was an arrow at the green that was like, well, me, they're going west, I'm going east. And we sort of did all the math and we're like, look, you can have 220 golfers a day with this concept, you can, and we would, we'd built probably seven holes at this stage and we'd cleared a hole and they're like, in the end, they're like, no, we want 36. And I'm so, we're so lucky that we ended up finding a new first hole and rerouted a couple of holes to create the 36, but there was a chance we were so far down this path, but it was really hard to let you can't just find another first hole, you know, which first hole got added versus which first hole, first on the east. But the second on the east was part of the west and like, it required some sort of the champion thing. Yeah. And, you know, I think we're really lucky there because I think if they had known they were building 36 holes in a short course at the outset, I'm not sure we would have got to design them all. I think that would have gone different architect for each course. But we were, you know, we're still very good friends with them and, you know, we were so embedded in it that when it went from 18 to 27 to 36, the discussion became, or what, what do we build for the second course? And we threw up, you know, an idea to do 36 in the same style and then have a composite, which is kind of down the Royal Melbourne theme, but in the end, they wanted two different styles and there were parts of the property that looked a bit like the old photos of Pine Valley or, or felt even a bit Sandbelt like in terms of contour. And we pitched the idea of a Sandbelt course, which they really liked. And we wanted to sort of, at that stage, we wanted to show America what Sandbelt golf could be because there's been so many courses built in the US where they say it's inspired by the Sandbelt or, you know, we wanted to build the bunkers of Kingston Heath and, you know, disrespect, but they're not at all like it, you know, it might be a passing resemblance. But we really wanted to not just have it look like a Sandbelt course, but have it play like a Sandbelt course, which is the important part, you know, of the puzzle. How much from that was required you to do a bunch of soil testing and figure out what kind of sand was there? Because it's a very specific type of soil profile and sand profile, right, to support bunkers like that and support bunker faces like that. Yeah, it is. We didn't, it was more probably the feel of the sand that we, it was working in the sand that we felt that it was capable of holding up the lips, that the big part was the bunk ridges. We wanted the bunkers to go all the way into the green, which hadn't really been done in the US. And we've sort of, we'd built enough sandbelt courses to sort of, we had a few tricks up our sleeve. And we got the superintendent out to Australia and wanted to make sure he was comfortable with it. And yeah, so they were, they were ended up sort of going down that path and it worked really successfully. It feels like a sandbelt course. Yeah. I mean, it's only that's Bermuda grains, really, that that's the only, you know, we couldn't do bent grass. But, um, yeah, so and we had our shapers that we'd worked within, you know, in the sandbelt as well. So we had a really good team assembled and brilliant and like brilliant short fours. And it feels like it's got the characteristics as well beyond just the aesthetic profile and, you know, the bunkers. Yeah. And we found a grass that, um, Congray used the same grass called tiff grand, which is sort of in between greens, height and fairly height, I guess. And that was the nearest thing we'd found. We're actually, we're looking at, uh, we were at Show Creek and they'd used it in the green surrounds there. It was really tight. I was the nearest thing we'd found to like the sand or I know that you have in Melbourne, where, you know, it was a golfer, that feeling of being able to compress the ball against the turf is very much a sandbelt thing. You can, you know, and it spins, whereas it just felt like so much of the muder in America, the balls sort of sat up. It was like almost too much air under the ball, if that makes sense, um, which the average golfer loves, because they can clip the ball easily off the turf, but it, you can't compress it and spin it. So that was a really important part too. Um, so we found that grass and again, the superintendent was on board. And we worked with an ecologist to basically select, uh, some plants and grasses from site that we felt was, would give us the look of that sort of sandbelt, um, you know, he, he fland, I guess. So we, we did a lot of receding around the course. Um, and then with it, with the other side, we wanted something really different to the sandbelt course. The sandbelt course was big. It was sort of 7,400 yards, big wide fairways, about 70 or 75 acres of short grass. Um, so three times the original amount at Madonna and, um, the other course, we wanted something different. One of our favorite courses is Swindley Forest in London, uh, we've always loved the Heathland. And again, it just, it was a different part of the property and it, for whatever reason, it kind of reminded us a little bit more of the Heathland courses. It felt a bit more intimate. And we thought, well, maybe we'd do something that's that kind of offering. So 6,600 yards, six par threes. So we, again, we, we, if you're going to go down that path, we just don't feel comfortable you know, dial it just sort of having this a passing resemblance to the Heathland. We really wanted to go all in. So we, we'd, we'd traveled there quite a bit, but we ended up going back for about 10 or 12 days and just doing a bit of a, or a, or a fresher, we took the superintendent again. And we kind of really wanted to be all in on this sort of Heathland style. So the greens, there's a lot of restraint shown out there, you know, it's very easy on those sites to just sandy wastes and, you know, extra fairway and this and that. But we really, we kept having to check ourselves and go, this, this is what we would normally do, but we want this to be a Heathland. So this is what we're going to pair it back. So there's a lot of greens there that are on the ground. We used sort of some diagonal ridges, different bunker style. So the bunkers one more, we liked the Heathland more in the 30s, I guess, than sort of current Heathland. So the bunkers have a little bit of a lacy edge to them. And grass, we went with Zoisia because we sort of, Zoisia almost looks like a cool season grass, kind of looks a bit fescuey, the ball, it's a bit slower. So different playing characteristics, you know, different tea style, different, we kind of every sort of, every step of the way we wanted it different to the east. And it's really nice that we kind of thought everyone would like the west more, you know, because there's a bit flashier, there's a lot of sand and the sand belt bunkers and stuff. We just thought everyone, but it's interesting. We've had a few clients have been there and lots of, we hear feedback from different people that have been there. And it's, it's really split. It's like 50, 50, which is the ultimate compliment. It's the absolute ultimate. Yeah. I was surprised. I thought it'd be more like 70, 30, but even Jeff, I think, likes playing the east course more than the west course. And it's such a nice, it's such a nice walk to, like I feel like there's no, like the floor is so high over there where like you feel like every hole is just at least an eight, you know, eight or a not. It's just a bunch of eight points put together and it's like, there's no weak spots. It's, and it's just like it, I mean, solid. It's like playing the bar, sure, a little bit of like, oh my gosh, we get to play another part of the re like this. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the picture's ever right down. Yeah. Yeah. TC came back Raven when he, when he went last year and I was kind of even though I heard of this place and added to the list for sure. A golf course, we visited on our most recent tour saw season is recently announced. Peninsula Kingswood is hosting the Australian Open next year. Yeah. You guys were redesigning that course, what, eight, ten years ago now, I guess at this point, what can, what's that like for you to see it come to, to the Australian Open come there and what can people expect from Peninsula Kingswood? Well, I've got a great personal connection there. So I joined there when I was 15. So yeah. Which one did you join? Did you join Peninsula or Kingswood? Peninsula. Yeah. I joined Peninsula. I had a lot of friends at Kingswood though, which was the other course. And, um, yes, I knew them both really well. Um, Ashley and I, when we started out careers with Michael Clayton Golf design, they'd done work there. So we'd kind of been involved there since the start of our careers. And then, um, I got a call in like 2014 or 2015 from the president. Kingswood to come in for a chat and we started having coffee sort of every month or two and they were it was interesting They were that club they could see the trend they membership were declining. They didn't have enough money to maintain the Course to the standard they wanted and Kingswood were kind of suffering a similar thing Peninsula was the perfect merger part now 36 holes under golfed not many members and a great bit of land and So the merger happened and and then it sort of became a little bit like the Madonna story They knew they had to add an irrigation system and a few other things But then they figured well while the hood's up. Why wouldn't we try and make it better and so the scope just kind of grew and grew and grew And it became this sort of three or four-year renovation project. It was probably the biggest thing that had been done in Melbourne since the Courses were built to be honest in the 20s. It was peninsula was the only course or there were two courses that when Mackenzie came out in the 20s Him and and the people he partnered with Alex Russell and the Malkmans kind of influenced every sand bell club You know so that Mackenzie philosophy that the construction skills of the Malkmans that that classic kind of sand bell look was evident at pretty much all the sand bell courses except peninsula and Huntingdale which is another course we just recently renovated so they were really the only two But it was this great little land and Yeah, some renovation work had been done on it. They were good courses. I think the South course was about 40 or 45 in the country and the north might have been about 20 But we felt it could be a lot better and Yeah, we embarked on this major project the course conditioning there had never been great and we managed to poach the superintendent who was a friend from Metropolitan We assembled this great team, you know, we introduced the greens to the edge of bunkers We rebuilt you know every part of that property and Yeah, I think the north courses now rated about five in the country and the south's about 12 So it's something it's probably one of the best 36 hole facilities, you know, I would say it's in the top 10 in the world of 36 hole facilities The north's knocking on the door of all top 100. I think it'll get there at some point And it's this yeah, it's a great bit of property interesting holes aesthetically there's a big wow factor there, you know, it looks fantastic So I think you know, I think it's going to photograph incredibly well for the Australian open We've played around with a few different we continue to consult there and I'm still a member there and We've played around with a few different composite courses So I think they've chosen one they've been working with Gulf Australia said as a I think they'll play a composite course for the tournament And I think people are going to be Shocked and surprised I would say Americans tuning in because they were most of them will never have heard of this place Yeah, and they'll sit on TV and suddenly it'll be it'll go straight into their top five on their bucket list So I think it's it's going to be an incredible event. I mean, we're super excited and just And for a personal point of you just nice to see it, you know, in the spotlight So absolutely from an agronomy perspective or both courses there is it the same same grass types throughout On both the north it is Yeah, we we worked closely with Glenn the superintendent on a different construction method for the Greens to try and get them firm So and now to their to the point where you get that incredible. I don't know. I'm trying to think what time are you guys with there? But um you can kind of drop your putter on the green that sounds like you're dropping it on a timber floorboards Yeah, so it's got that amazing. Yeah So there is firm as anything you can they'll be super super firm for the event um, but it's consistent throughout which and we wanted You know, there's different pockets of the property that feel different but we deliberately didn't try and make the north course different from the south. It's like this is a you know It's a consistent property throughout it should be a fairly similar style and I'm glad we did because that opens the door to The composite course, you know, whereas you couldn't do that otherwise One other place we visited that uh, we we got to rock. Oh, I'll walk around with you actually when we went for the Asia Pacific amateur, but it's sandy links. You know, we've talked a lot about some of the private golf courses You've done, but what you've done there at sandy links is one of the coolest things a bit fortunate enough to see Travel around the golf world Yes, Andy was it's great great story um, it was kind of a joint venture between the the government and um golf Australia and the um Australian PGA So it sort of become the the center of golf I guess for all of those bodies. So it's a fairly big building All the high performance guys use it as a practice area. Um, so that took up some golf So we had to kind of stitch the 18 holes and so in the end we Came up with the idea of you know, given there's so many great par threes and short par fours around the Melbourne Sandbelt What if we had 18 holes that was kind of just a combination of great threes and short fours there's a couple of medium length par fours But there's no par farts And it's it's maintained by Royal Melbourne. They've got the lease on it and Richard Forsyth who is the super then I sort of asked well is there a chance we could grasp it with the same Sutton's mix as the greens at Royal Melbourne And he came back and said yeah, we could do that so We ended up I kind of liked this idea that You know for the average golfer they can't really get access to the sandbelt courses hard to get a game there You might you might be able to as a bucket list, but you know once in your life, but We like the idea of giving the average public golfer a sandbelt experience So they've got essentially the same greens as Royal Melbourne same bunker style um firmfast conditions and just this combination of you know cool threes and short fours and it's 50 or 60 bucks and Yeah, you can play any time you want so it's it's right next door to Victoria and Royal Melbourne So it's a great pocket of golf in in Australia Um, so yeah, so it's it's worth you know, it's just fun. It's just a fun, you know, it's wide and it's all the things we like with sandbelt golf Because I remember we drove by a T.C. When did you guys do the work there? Like it was during COVID It was so it was about 2019 20 but I'm remembering this right because I remember driving by it and just being like well That looks a little little rougher on the edges golf course right next to Royal Melbourne When we were there in 18 I mean, and then came back for the age of Pacific and was like whoa Well, that looks completely different than the last time we were here. So yeah, yeah, it was always they I mean, it was always a bit of it Yeah, it was just it was it was Jason, but it was never yeah, they never had the money to spend on it right yeah We gotta get you back on at some point talk bonny dune hunting down Yeah, I was like we're gonna let you go now because I think we got another like two hours and I we didn't we didn't warn you This was gonna be three hours as well, but hopefully we'll run into you when we're up at Medina for the president's cup But I really appreciate you spend some time with this Mike and As T.C. likes to say things cocking is the future. So we Well, right. We have to have you we have to have you on here in the future as well, but thanks for spending some time with us Okay, true. Thanks guys great to see you. Thank you