Medicine Made Me Murder - St. George, Utah

This week, in St. George, Utah, a woman disappears from her home, leaving behind only blood and a bullet hole in a window, only to be found murdered in the worst possible way. The case unfolds into a national news story with the accused murderer using a very new, very unique defense. But will it work? Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay! Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today on another insane, crazy, wild edition of Small Town Murder. It has been crazy lately. It's only going to get crazier, everybody. Here it goes. We have a wild story for you today. Before we get to that, real quick, definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Get your tickets for live shows, also merchandise, new stuff up as well over there. But definitely get your tickets. After the summer, we have more live shows. 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It's going to be a poll on Patreon, either The Crash, which is that Mackenzie Sherilla killed her friends driving into a wall thing, or Corey Richen's Part Three, because she's so much more stuff came out in sentencing. Her kids' statements came in, which contradicted everything she said. And you get to hear from the jurors a little bit, and her wild statement that she made for an hour, her rambling elocution of bullshit. So either way, whichever one you don't pick will be the next one. And then it's prisoner dating game time. So do that. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all of that. And you get everything we put out. Crime in Sports, Your Stupid Opinion, Small Town Murder, all ad-free with your Patreon as well. You bet. And you get a shout-out at the end of the show here, where Jimmy will try to pronounce your name properly, but no promises, everybody. What do you want from me? What do you want? Their names are hard. They really are. So that said here, disclaimer time. Hey, this is a comedy show, everybody. We're comedians. There's going to be murder, obviously. Sure. The show's called Small Town Murder. It'd be weird if there was no murder. And there's going to be jokes, because we can't help it. We have to make jokes. Part of it, yeah. To me, to us, it makes us be kind of more. We're comfortable with the whole thing. The serious talk about a murder seems kind of creepy. Let's lighten it up a little bit here. And you're not around the murder. There's plenty of stuff to make fun of. We make fun of the murderer. We make fun of if some police force doesn't know how to do their job and lets some guy go free and murder more people. It's the type of thing we make fun of. But what we don't do, what we never do, is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why? Because we're assholes. But? But we're not scumbags. See how that works? It's real easy. It's real easy. It's real easy. So if that's how it works, then we're not scumbags. So if that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a hell of a crazy story if you think true crime and comedy should never, ever go together. I don't know. Maybe we're not for you. But this is what we're doing. So check it out. And if you like it, you like it. If not, no complaining later. That's all. You're not going to change it. That's it. That's what the show is. That said, I think it's time, everybody. What do you say here to sit back, clear the lungs, and let's all shout. Shut up and give me murder. Let's do this, everybody. Let's go on a trip, shall we? All right. We're going to Utah this week, which we were in Utah a few weeks ago. Not bad. It's pretty anyway. It's a beautiful place. Beautiful place. Not for me, but I mean beautiful for anybody. But the place isn't quite for me, but that's fine. That's all right. People seem to enjoy it there. This is St. George, Utah. It's in southwestern Utah, like all the way in the corner there. You know where it is from the electric company. Yeah, it's just northwest of Page. Yeah, there you go. It's about an hour and 45 minutes to Las Vegas, about four hours and five minutes to South Salt Lake City. It's a ways up there. It's a way up there, which was our last Utah episode, episode 662, The Master of Deceit. That was the one where they had to basically piece somebody's body together like Hangman, finding body parts here and over there. That was a crazy episode. Utah, when you guys decide to kill over there, you're pretty repressed. But when you just decide to go nuts, you really go all out. I'll give you that. Extreme. It's pent up from decades. You just explode on people. This is in Washington. I think so. Swear words, drinking regular beer, not even 2.5% or whatever they used to have there. Running across the border to get real alcohol. Yeah, over there. This is in Washington County. Area code is 435. It's got a nickname and a motto. Is that right? You get both. The nickname is Utah's Dixie. What? We'll explain why that is very quickly in the history here. There's a reason for that. And the motto is, quote, it's the brighter side. Oh. Of what? We don't know. Of Utah? The other side is fucking. Maybe it's. Well, I mean, it's pretty bright, too. Mostly just white people, but. Well, yeah. And I'll tell you what. You go outside anywhere around there, it's bright. Yeah, it's bright. The Southwest and this desert area and all. Yeah. It's like. Nuclear flash bright. Yeah. Speaking of nuclear stuff, there's some nuclear stuff involved in this town, too. Oh, the sky is like. In the summertime, people are like, oh, the sky's so blue here. It's not even blue. It's fucking white. It's white because it's just a glare. White hot. It's a weird, odd glare. It doesn't even. You don't even get a blue sky, but yet there's no clouds. It's so weird. It's just white. History here. The town was settled in 1861, meant to be a cotton mission, which is why it became Utah's Dixie, because it was supposed they were wanting to grow cotton. Growing and operations. Now, never became a successful commodity around the area. It just didn't quite work out. But for some reason, the area kept growing in population anyway, even though the thing that people came here for failed. Doesn't make sense. But basically, compared to Utah, St. George is more Arizona than it is Utah. Yeah, it's that. There's no mountains. When you think of Utah and you think of like all the rock formations and the red dirt and shit like that. The big mountains and the snow. That's here. No, no. All you're talking about. The red shit is down here. The red shit's down here. Yeah, this is. That's not anywhere near. None of that shit's near Salt Lake. Yeah, not this. I said no mountains, but I meant no snow covered mountains. None of that shit that's in Salt Lake. No, there's no skiing around this area whatsoever. It's 115 goddamn. It's mostly hiking trails and very hot shit. Yeah, if you like to hike when it's 115, this place is for you, basically. Right up your alley. So the settlement is named after George A. Smith, who was an LDS church apostle, of course. Yeah. Yeah. In 1877, the LDS completed the St. George, Utah Temple, and it was the church's third temple. And it's the oldest still in active use in Utah. No shit. Yeah, it is. Now, in the early 50s, this area, St. George, received most of the bad shit from the fallout of the above ground nuclear testing that went on. Whoops. Yucca Flats, the Nevada testing site that's northwest. It's a place in the west of Vegas where they would have parties where people would, remember they have the rooftop viewing parties where people would eat dinner and you'd watch the nuclear explosions and just get shitloads of radiation because if you can see it, it's getting you. All that shit rode the jet stream right into fucking Utah. That's the problem. The winds go right through there and basically carried the fallout directly to St. George. It was like, I might as well have brought it in like a package with a bow on it and said, Candy Graham, and handed it over to St. George. And then fallout comes out. So this. Here, another eyeball. Yeah. So there's, oh, a tail. That's not normal. So there was huge increases in the frequency of cancer in the population, including leukemia, lymphoma, thyroid cancer, breast cancer, melanoma, bone cancer, brain tumors, gastrointestinal tract cancers. I think they could just say all the cancers. Holy. This was reported from the mid 50s until the early 80s, basically, until all those people kind of died off. Wow. And it's like, oh, my God. 30 years of that time. In 1980, People Magazine reported that from about 220 cast and crew members who filmed the 1956 movie The Conqueror on location near St. George, 91 of those people out of 220 had come down with cancer. 91 out of 220. That is a lot. That's a lot. Among the cancer deaths were John Wayne, obviously, and Susan Hayward as well, the film's stars. So even they died of cancer. John Wayne was old, and I think he smoked like three packs a day, too, so that doesn't help. He lived into his 80s, didn't he? I think so. But I guess the lifetime odds of developing cancer for men in the U.S. population are 43%, and this place is a lot higher than that, apparently. In 1992, the St. George earthquake destroyed three houses as well as a bunch of utility shit, which you probably had to deal with at that point. Not in 92. You were a little young for that. 2005, they had a 100-year flood. The flood come through and just destroy shit and killed a person, and 28 homes were destroyed. This is extreme desert weather. The earth doesn't want you here. No, no, no, no. That's what it is. The lizards survive here. That's it. This and that. It tries to shake you off. You don't leave. It tries to wash you out. Drown you. I mean, for a bunch of people that believe in God, they sure don't take signs very much. You know what I'm saying? Jesus. Yeah, they aren't taking the fucking hint. They're not taking the hint. I mean, reviews of this town. I've never been here, so let's find out what people think of this place. They might love it. Here's five stars. St. George is where I was born and raised while still currently living here. Okay. That's a weird way to put that, but sure. While still currently living here. It said, I still live here. Matter of fact, I still live here. Born and raised ain't left. Nope. It's a great in-between of small town and plenty to do with a variety of residents. Also known as Dixie. There's a great variety of public schools. Schools, sports teams, job opportunities, et cetera. I enjoy living here. Hence the five stars. It's an exclamation at the end, too. Here's three stars. St. George is a very friendly town for those who are wanting a good place to settle. On the other hand, if you want any nightlife or just fun activities to do, it's really not the place to do it. Right, because you've settled. Yeah, you've settled. If you like church or walking around in the heat up a rock, this is for you. It's beautiful. Otherwise, find somewhere else. There's a lake. I think there's a lake there, too. Maybe. Yeah, I'm sure. Here's three stars. Very family friendly, but everyone is caught up in keeping up with the Joneses. That's a big Mormon thing. There's a fucking TV show about it. Yeah, absolutely. Everyone seems to be copy and paste. And then finally here, one star. This person is unhinged, and it's wild. St. George wins the award of being the most hated city for domesticated animals. Okay. By who? We'll find out in the review here. Good luck finding a place to rent when you own an animal. They especially hate dogs here. Okay. No one wants to rent. There are people on trails pointing guns at hikers' dogs, telling them they have the right to kill their dogs. Kill me? What are you talking about? I'm going to shoot your dog because I can. Which they don't, in parentheses. Police doesn't care. They don't care, man. Is it one police or there are several? Because you may be using that wrong. Chuck doesn't care. Police doesn't care and won't do a thing because they're all related to each other somehow. Right. If he means in whatever way or if he means, you know, cosmically, I'm not sure. Somehow that happened, yeah. Yeah. So everything gets put on a shelf, right? Speaking of feelings, come to any place and you can feel the heavy feeling of repression. The air reeks of repression. Of repression and low IQ points. It's noticeable, which makes me laugh at first. Then it makes me cry because I live here. Wow, that is depressing. All right. Population in this town, right now it's shot up like crazy. Yeah. 92,875. God damn. When the murder happened that we're going to talk about in 1990, there was 28,502. It is shot. 90,000 people have moved here. It's crazy. 80,000. 30,000. In a fucking, in a decade. Two decades. Three decades. In 2000, it only had 49,000 people in 2000. So it's almost 50,000 people have moved here in the last 25 years. So that's pretty impressive. More women than men. 51% women, but not a lot there. Median age is right about the national average, 37.9. It's a lot of LDS, so it's a lot of families, a lot of kids and things like that. Matter of fact, it's 60% married, basically. 59.7% married people. Very low single with children, people. It's very much, you know, families here. Race in this town, 80.7% white, 0.8% black, 0.8% Asian. Is there like a quota here or something? That's it. No more. They closed the gate. That's enough now. Sorry. Families reaching for each other through fences. That's 0.8%. That's all we can handle. You can kind of feel the migration pattern of this town. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 0.9% Native Americans. 13% Hispanic. 78% of the people here are religious, which is about as high as it gets. It's 50-50. That's about as high as we've ever heard. Normally, yeah. It's in the ballpark of other Utah cities, basically. And a whopping, I mean, this is not even close. Far and away. 70.4% of the people here. So 78% are religious and 70.4% of those, not of those people, of everybody. So 70.4% are Mormon here. It is. A Mormon town. Nobody's even close. As we know, the LDS are the Baptists of the Western mountain regions here. Whatever it is. Whatever it is. Unemployment low here. Median household income, $63,604, which is below the national average. Yeah. Which is odd for Utah. Usually, they make decent money in Utah at a lot of these places. So you would think the housing would be cheap also. No. But cost of living here, 100 is average. Here, it's 110. And the housing is the highest thing of everything. Yeah. It feels like when the population rises like that in a rapid succession, houses gain value fast because supply and demand, babe. That's what I mean. They can't build them fast enough to have that many people come in here. Median home cost, $485,000. Holy shit. Which is well above the national average by $150,000. So if we've convinced you, damn it, you like the heat, you got plenty of space, you got sunscreen, and you got your hiking shoes on, and you don't want to bring your dog, we have for you the St. George, Utah Real Estate Report. The average two-bedroom rental here is $1,270, which is like right at the national average. So renting seems like the better option here. But if you need to buy, here they are here. We have, number one, two-bedroom, one-bath, 1,050-square-foot trailer. Oh. It's a trailer, around other trailers. I mean, it's got like wood around the bottom. Oh, that's nice. They made it look like it's not going anywhere. There's like a metal carport outside. Inside, it's got some carpet that has been there a while. Let's just say that. It's like gray, and it looks like it is. I don't know if it was gray to begin with, but it's gray now. It's old. It's a bit dingy in there. Just had a price cut, by the way, of $19,000. This house is $81,000. That is 20% off, man. 20% off. That's a smoking deal. They couldn't sell that thing. Next up, three-bedroom, two-bath, 1,039-square-feet. So, it's pretty small. It's smaller than the trailer by 11 square feet. It's not a huge house, but it's a house, and it looks nice from the outside. It's not a big lot, either. It's a small lot, kind of crammed in. The houses are right next to each other. Sure, sure. It almost looks like those patio homes in Phoenix, how they are with the retirement communities. Almost a lot. It's not a condominium, but single-level. Yeah, single-level, single-family. $293,000 for that. That's a bit much. That seems pricey. It just had a $5,000 price cut, so they agree. It was a little much. Then, next up, four-bedroom, four-bath, T-bowl for each and every b-hole over here. 4,340 square feet. Goddamn. A.34-acre lot, so not huge, not small. It looks like one of the nice. It's like West Phoenix kind of houses, basically. It's a lot of beige. Ranch style, you say? Yeah, a lot of beige. It's got the tile roof and some stonework around that goes three-quarters of the way up. You know what I mean? That Phoenix house they built around 2007, 2008, it just had a $50,000 price cut, as well. Apparently, the real estate's not doing great in Utah, or in this portion of it, anyway. $1,169,000 for that. Which it just doesn't look like it's worth it. Three-quarters of an acre. Yeah. I'd like some more land if I'm going to pay that much money if I was looking for a house. It's only 4,000 square feet? That's stupid. Yeah, 4,300. I mean, it's not like it's enormous. That's absurd. You couldn't have eight kids and live there. It'd be tough, so it'd be impossible. Things to do in this town. All right. Not a whole lot, I got to be honest with you. It is mainly hiking. Really? Outdoors and shit. Yeah. Even these things are still outdoors type of things. There's the St. George Water Lantern festival which looks real boring um yeah water lantern is like uh opposites oh lily pad things yeah and then with the things around them you float them on a lake yeah one of those experience the enchantment of a magical the enchantment of a floating candle can you handle it jimmy can you handle that kind of enchantment yeah yep uh a magical evening at our water lantern festival join us as we gather by the water's edge to celebrate love hope and dreams all illuminated by the gentle glow of floating lanterns is that what we're celebrating hope love and dreams babe that's it when that's happening uh i don't even know what it is doesn't matter that's how we're celebrating february then fucking stupid yeah what are we doing as the sun begins to set you'll be captivated by the serene beauty of the scene all it's a lot of words that mean boring serene gentle all the other words that mean boring serene gentle all the other words that mean boring serene gentle all these words mean boring a lot of silence a lot of silence not a lot for the kids i wouldn't think here then there is the saint george dinosaur discovery site i believe that tons of dinosaur shit around here big dinosaur footprints in the dirt and shit like that cool stuff if you're into that um this is an indoor museum built directly over thousands of actual dinosaur tracks and fossils they built it over so you can just go in and look on the floor and so they probably destroyed some for making the foundation for this probably or possibly either that or they were real careful um now i found a couple of reviews and i think this is the best way to find out about this place here's a five-star review this was an incredible discovery on a recent trip to saint george it's so educational and fun it's good for kids and adults adults with intellectual curiosity it was so enjoyable to see actual dinosaur footprints and impressions of skin left in the ancient waterways plan to spend more than an hour on this place they have an excellent selection of books to learn more okay skin left skin left impressions of where the skin was and yeah where it like fell down and died in the rock bed and probably yeah yeah i don't know uh then there's a one-star review very disappointing mud tracks only no dinosaurs oh holy sorry it wasn't jurassic park you fucking this is america everybody or not even america the world this is this is who we're living with what the fuck when people go society's all fucked up you can't have a society when people go there's no no dinosaurs you can't have a society like that this person dinosaur on the sign that's not fair when this person's driving on the road you are counting on them to not just drive into your children like because they're so this fucking stupid it says 10 to 15 minutes to go through the entire place and mcdonald's thinks we're capable of bringing up our own food yeah no can't do it you can't even know no there's a fucking moron thinks there's dinosaurs yes and there's a there's a fucking insane there's a uh response here yeah hi i'm sorry to hear you were disappointed during your visit i'm not sure what you mean by quote no dinosaurs as we have hundreds of dinosaur footprints on display and several real life restorations of what these animals looked like when alive so just making sure you mean you thought dinosaurs would be here like walking around you could pet them yeah it's a petting zoo they want to ask are you okay but they know they know uh crime rate in this town what we're interested in here property crime a little bit below average but not too much they can't figure it out but no violent crime murder rape robbery and of course assault the mount rushmore of crime is about half the national average yeah they can't figure it out no they don't know how guns work probably they're like what happened they click it back they're like i'm pressing a lot of suicide just looking down the barrel oh no damn it uh that is incredible no dinosaurs that's the dumbest review we do a show about dumb reviews and that's the dumbest review i've ever seen for anything it's a fucking idiot that's an idiot he doesn't know dinosaurs are extinct okay he's like i saw jurassic park there are dinosaurs you could have used they used them why couldn't you use them so sad borrow some dinosaurs from jurassic park um okay let's talk about this murder now okay let's start out 1990 as a matter of fact july 22nd 1990 it is hot hot hot around in these parts right now buck 10 every day i mean dry cooking oh cooking um let's talk about a lady named nancy snow now nancy is in her late 30s at this point and she is at this very moment thrice divorced oh okay three times three times very recently is the third time third one so i'll give you that you get married especially it's you know utah maybe she got married when she was 18 maybe she was forced that's not gonna work or you even just thought it was a good idea to do and if it's encouraged by everyone around you you do it and then you go jesus who why didn't you tell me not to do this or you get married to run away from whatever the fuck was bad or that nine kids in the house or some shit or just whatever just found someone she thought she was in love with either way that didn't work out maybe you think oh now you found the one and now you know who knows maybe he's not who he thought maybe he's like the pattern that you got away from and then uh things are starting to get ugly for here now she's a receptionist at a nursing home and she has a friend here that works at the nursing home with her technically it's kind of her boss i guess um yeah i mean she's a receptionist this woman's kind of like the head of the nursing staff but i don't know if it's her direct supervisor but you know whatever uh but they hang out all the time they're like best friends they've gotten pretty close to each other um now her friend doesn't show up for somewhere she's supposed to be i believe work on the morning of july 22nd she doesn't show up and so nancy snow calls her house and she doesn't answer either so she's like god damn it she drives over to nancy's house now she had dropped nancy off at her house the night before she's like i know she came home the night before i dropped her off because they had gone out to a bar the night before to hang out um so but uh the friend here that she's looking at uh is not mormon by the way okay as we'll find out um just as she went to a bar and all that she wasn't like oh i'm gonna go to a bar and i'm gonna go to a bar and i'm gonna go to a like doing it in secret she's not from here um sometimes they do so they do in secret this wasn't a secret is what i mentioned yeah she's not hiding it she's just living her life um now the friend who uh here goes over to her house you know nancy snow goes over to her friend's house to say where the hell are you basically um it's a two-story residence and she finds it in complete disarray uh-oh from the outside you can see there's complete disarray there is there there's like the back screen is like messed up on her kitchen window um there's blood that she can see in the house things don't look right they're disheveled um so she nancy heads to the saint george police department right from the house to say my best friend janice is missing i didn't see her blood all over her house i didn't see her in there but she might be in there but i she's not answering her phone she didn't show up and she's very dependable and yada yada yada um even more than that she says by the way if she something happened to her i think i know who did it as a matter of fact which if you're the police that's very helpful nancy you're so good at this someone comes in not only to report a missing person but then to solve the case for you as well it's pretty impressive you get a lot of information don't even put your coffee down wow yeah let's do this so she said i bet it's my ex-husband that did it this the last one not her yes my ex-husband not janice's ex-husband nancy snow's ex-husband um she said a few days ago three days ago we had gone out to a bar and there was a confrontation between me and my friend janice and my ex-husband okay where he came up to me and wasn't supposed to be bothering me because i have a restraining order against him but we were all in the bar at the same time and so when we saw he was there yeah nancy says me and janice got up to leave and he bothered us so janice was yelling at him and telling him to leave me alone and to go you know let us leave and don't bother us and things like that and he got really mad at janice he's my ex-husband but we had a confrontation with him together three days ago yeah yeah and there's restraining orders and we're talking this multiple restraining orders are going on oh he's a bad guy then janice had went and got a restraining order because of the bar incident oh because they had gotten into it at the bar she went the next day and got a restraining order so within the last three days now there's nancy's got restraining orders on him and now janice does as well um so when they when the police they take her seriously i mean they go oh jesus so she just and they look it up and janice had filed a complaint a couple of days ago so they go okay this makes a lot of sense let's look into it so they go over to janice's apartment um they find the kitchen window and they go okay this makes a lot of sense let's look into it so they go over the window is open the screen from the window is on the ground that's not good that's not good really good track covering by whoever did this right um speaking of track covering there's also a footprint in the dirt outside uh-oh because there was a hanging plant there that is now taken down and put onto the kitchen counter as well and some of the dirt from that spilled oh when it was being taken down yeah it was in the way so that's how they can tell it definitely came in through the window and then there's dirt from the window and then there's dirt from the window and then there's dirt from the window and then there's a footprint in the dirt footprint in the dirt you know shoe print um so that's all that they you know shoe print um so that's all that they think that has to be the point of entry is the kitchen window um so the police detectives here say they found a large amount of blood on the carpet of the townhome yeah janice's apartment here uh blood was also found on the front door which now there's another yeah entry exit point here so they found it on the front door on the tile inside the front door a little tile foyer there landing yeah a little landing and on the porch concrete outside the front door okay so blood big pile of it in the living room and then looks like whatever happened because there's no body here by the way oh they don't find her she's not here there is no people in this house dead or alive okay so they see obviously whoever now they don't know did they leave on their own were they carried were they dragged he started leaking and then there's a trail of leaking all the way through the house yeah janice nancy's the reporting one yeah um in addition to that which i mean that looks bad enough as it is they also found a bullet hole in the front window of the ground floor which is right by the where they find the blood stain and near the door um there so they find a bullet hole in the window and if it went through out or in it looks like out okay it's an out because your glass would be on the outside and there's a nine millimeter even more proof of it is there's a nine millimeter shell casing in the kitchen on the inside so yeah definitely shot from the inside they also find um like i said the kitchen window opened and all that kind of shit so and there's one plant on the counter and then there's a couple more plants that were just like taken down and thrown somewhere uh so all together they have a nine millimeter shell casing which is good evidence um they have blood on the carpet blood on the door blood on the porch which they can test and see if it's janice's at the end of the day and 1990 that's not dna but they can at least kind of blood type or anyway a bullet hole through the front window and no victim and plants moved all over the place and plants all over the place and a footprint in the dirt outside right um so they they basically they're they're going we have to investigate this as a homicide because there's a lot of blood i mean there's carpets soaked in blood there's enough blood where it doesn't look like whoever bled this much is probably medically okay they didn't bleed this much and then go out to dinner and come home later like there's a there's a an issue and then certainly so yeah they're looking and the fact that they're not there and this person didn't like check into a hospital or anything like that so yeah we don't have anywhere close by of them getting help no so they're investigating this as this is a crime scene obviously and we have a murder investigation with no victim which is strange to have you you don't even know if the person's dead you don't have any idea where their body is but you already have a suspect which is in because you've already been given a suspect by somebody now obviously they say it all sounds right but at the same time they're like you know you have to look into nancy because she's the one who reported it and she came to the apartment first and she's the one saying i bet it's my ex-husband so who knows the last one to see her and exactly she's already steering the investigation yeah so they have to look at her but they don't she seemed pretty genuine they think when she came in she seemed genuinely freaked out yeah and like really scared that her friend was missing essentially so the other thing they find at the house is janice's car is parked in front of the house so they look at the car which is smart police work they could just say well her car has nothing to do with it if this happened inside the house and you know has nothing to do with it but instead they really look over the car well and they find that the car has scuff marks suggesting that it may have been driven through brush and also they find a very specific type of vegetation up in the wheel wells as well this has been a great great find it's a real good fight yeah this where they yeah where they they are very specific where this particular brush grows is yeah that's not inside the city limits scientifically forensics has become botanists as well yeah oh yeah absolutely we've seen cases where they they do all sorts of crazy grass samples to see how long it would die under a car and these conditions i mean like you really got to that's amazing yeah you want to be a forensic scientist you better take some botany classes because yeah you better get yourself a ranger rick yeah you're gonna need to know where this particular type of shit grows and why it's there and yeah everything so pay attention at your doctor's office at those national geographic definitely so the friend that they're looking for the missing woman is janice elaine fondren f-o-n-d-r-e-n janice um she is born april 20th 1960 april 20th same uh birthday as cory richards and hitler right uh yeah she's a few years younger than nancy um now janice she born 1960 she just turned 30 a couple of months ago now she's an interesting story she's from south carolina from monks corner south carolina m-o-n-c-k-s monks where the fuck is that it's in berkeley county just north of charleston okay uh so and if you've ever seen like live pd or whatever they call it now on patrol berkeley county is one of their counties and it is there's some rural shit going on and it's a lot of like chasing people through the woods and then they have tons of guns on them and drugs that seems to be berkeley county never an id no idea driver's license ever of course it's probably not their car but they're driving i love that you have a license no people are acting like why would i have a license a license for what can you just hand me the weed it's legal in this state just please i don't have any okay all right we'll get out and run our frisky what's all well where's all this weed coming from they never say the weed's legal in this state in south carolina yeah it's not not fun which is why you don't see us playing in south carolina because uh i'm not going to fucking some southern prison because i want to have a good time before a show when they do it in in arizona it's always that though they always yeah they don't tell them that they have weed on them and they're like yeah i'm not going to do you have any any drugs on you no and they're like it's legal in this state you could have just told me well then it's not drugs i get it but if you're you have to tell them they can still give you a dui for it is my point yeah well they don't you don't have to tell them if you have a six-pack in the trunk so why would you tell them if you have but they know that they know if they see it then they're going to assume that they just smoked it now oh okay yeah i guess and they're getting arrested for dui because arizona loves it yeah they just love that's how they make money in as duis yeah let's let's be realistic here in other states they aren't like they are in arizona and people aren't smashing into everything drunk all the time it's they're just making money probably are but they know how to drive drunk are you kidding me in milwaukee anything less than an 18 pack they they're fine those people that's a they're a different breed up there so janice back to her uh she her parents are john and betty joe and um they she has a sister beth and her brother john the third oh nice family working class family her mom betty worked for uh county supervisors and uh when she retired she was the berkeley county finance director oh so they do well you know nice middle class family basically uh janice is a real happy person uh sings in the choir and high school and all that kind of thing she's a cheerleader um everything like that she's very outgoing very south carolina absolutely uh very into stuff now she goes to college at the medical university of south carolina in charleston she goes for nursing so she gets a bachelor's in nursing and uh the whole way she was whole time she was in school she was paying her own way through school and she did that by working with the elderly like as an aide in a nursing home because which is what she was trying to do in her career so she's just getting her feet wet um she's described by her teachers as an excellent student she earned two scholarships from the state and local chapters of the business and professional women's organization of the thing so she's a she's somebody you want to you know put your put your chips on she looks like she's not going to waste your money um she graduates from the university at that point and her father john said i tried to get her to stay home in south carolina when she was a little girl and she said i'm not going to let her go i'm going to let her stay where she belonged but i lost that battle he said she she loved the west so much she just wanted to wanted to go out west okay wanted some open horizons here yeah um now there's differing information here there is information that she moved to las vegas first for a minute yeah it was there for a few months and then ended up in utah and then there's other it was like this sucks well it was that she wanted to go somewhere that was uh not so she's from like a small town and vegas is a little much for anybody it's much for anybody i don't care where you're from it's too stimulating even if you're from manhattan it's too stimulating do you like fun we're gonna shine a bright light on it yeah and show you it even when you're trying to sleep vegas is the equivalent of somebody uh sitting you down tying you to a chair and having a machine that just feeds you ice cream continuously until the machine is tied up which is never. That first couple bites, you're like, hey, ice cream, I like that. A half hour into it, enough fucking ice cream. And that's what Vegas is. It's too much ice cream. And when this machine breaks down, we're going to have Chris Angel come in and do it. And then when he gets tired, Wayne Newton's going to come do it. Yeah. It's just too much. And then we're going to feed you to a fucking tiger. And then Celine Dion's going to sing at you for some reason or whoever the fuck is there. So she is known as a pretty private person. Here. She never talks about herself ever. It's like one of like kind of like seems like a rule of hers to not talk about herself. And a lot of people, it's not polite to talk about yourself. Right. Yeah, that's a thing. Some people also say that she's also pretty private anyway. It's not a me, me, me person. And she's just kind of private anyway. So one of her bosses at the nursing home later on said Janice was, quote, a very private lady. Not a person who talks. She talked about me, me, me. She was cute, had an infectious smile and was always, always, always smiling. Very happy young lady here. So she gets herself a cat that she names Rambo. Yeah. Because it is the late 80s. It is 90. In the late 80s, you might name your cat Rambo. It's just what you did. Is Gizmo or Rambo? Those were the two animal names that you were allowed to have. Gizmo if it was cute. Rambo if it was tough. Have you got one of those like bounder cats? It's got like. You know, fucking one eye and a weird limb because you found it. Now that's a Rambo cat. You get a fluffy little white thing. That's Gizmo. You know, none of this shit. Gizmo can't make it dress up as Rambo. That's true. Gizmo can't make it outside. Gizmo's going to get eaten by an owl in like, you know, two nights. Whereas Rambo, Rambo will get by. Gizmo's got a weak bladder. Yeah. Rambo's like the cat and always sunny. The junkyard cat. Always sunny in Philadelphia. So she's still. She still talks to her mom, too, despite moving out there and being, you know, almost in her late 20s. She still talks to her mom four or five times a week in the late 80s, which, by the way, that's long distance bills. That's expensive. That is fucking. We discussed this recently on a show. Long distance. Now you just call wherever you don't even think about it because your phone, it's all the same. Whether you call in your own house or you call to California, it's the same thing. And they don't even care how long you talk for now. Forever. No, no. Back in the day, if you called. The next area code, which could be 15 miles away. It costs money, period. It was expensive. You were outside your area code. You were in deep shit. So she did that. She would pick up the phone four or five times a week to call her mom. A lot of it would be just to ask her, what do you put in that recipe that you have? And oh, wow. Yeah. Just trying to keep close. Her mom said she'd be in the middle of cooking something and she'd pick up the phone and ask me how to do it. So walk her through it. So, yeah. By 89 is when she ends up going to Utah, basically. She wanted to be able to move to a safe place where you could sleep with your windows open if you wanted to. Stuff like that. So she picked St. George, Utah, which has about zero murders a year. Wow. In general. Yeah. In 1990, there hadn't been a murder in St. George in four years. My God. So it's very small. So she moves to Newtown, St. George. And she ends up at the St. George Care Center, which is a nursing home in town because she's a licensed registered nurse. Her boss describes Janice. She says you'd watch her come into the to work. She said I'd see her through the office window because it's by the parking lot. I'd see her coming in every morning. And she said I'd sit there. I'd sit here in the morning and watch. She'd get out of the car. And it was almost like she'd skip into the building. God damn. That's a different level of happy. Yeah. That is I'm impressed with because if you're going to work at a nursing home. First of all, if you're going to work at a at an ice cream factory where you're the tester, like, let's go back to ice cream because it's wonderful. If you're an ice cream tester, you're not. It's eight in the morning. You know, I'm never skipping into that anywhere. Anywhere. Yeah, you could. Your job could be to get blow jobs. And I wouldn't skip in there with every morning. I would walk into an ice cream. Testing job like I was lactose intolerant. Yeah. Every day because I had to go there. I don't want to go here. So that's impressive to be able. I'm going to go, you know, watch old people deteriorate and, you know, get yelled at by someone with Alzheimer's, then clean shit off of somebody. And she's like, yeah, my son does it now where he goes and feeds at one of these places. He, like, makes the food for these guys. And it's already it's already wearing on him. Yeah. But to be. To be honest, I mean, yeah, everything wears on him. Yeah, you're always complaining about how he doesn't want to do anything. So he's not the most active boy. I mean, he's not the most active boy child you ever saw. Oh, that's funny. He'll feed him one day and come back and their rooms cleared out. There's a new person in there. They're dead. Yeah, that's a that's a bummer. It's tough. He's he's starting to get a real taste for what life is and say that is a serious life lesson. Yeah. You want a serious life lesson. There it is. This is what's going to happen eventually. And it won't last long. So fucking enjoy your the guy who made you your pudding yesterday will be like, oh, he's gone. That's it. That's that. All right. Well, that's our footprint, babe. That's all there is, man. So she loved Utah, loved her work. She loved working with the elderly. Her mom summed it up perfectly, I think, describing, you know, give an umbrella quote here. Quote, she was a sweet girl. I think that's the best way to put it. She's a sweet girl. So Nancy Snow is telling the police as they look for this sweet girl. It's it's got to be my ex-husband. I know it's my ex-husband that did something with her because nobody else in this town kills anybody. So it's got to be him. Who's got the restraining order. So, yeah. Yeah. Because she said, I went over there. It's the color view townhomes is where she lived. Janice. And she said the night or July 21st, which is the night before I had dropped her off. And we were hanging out over there. And I saw my ex-husband through the back fence looking at the apartment. So he was like looking through the back fence, spying on them while they were hanging out in the in the apartment. I mean, she's making all the sense in the world of why to look at this guy. Yeah, that seems awful. She notified Janice, who went to check, but he like ran away when when they started like going toward the door. He took off. He was watching. Um, so they're like, all right, who is this guy? Okay. It is Joseph Charles Gardner, Jr. J.C. He goes by, you know, they call me J.C. Like, like the other one. But, you know, not quite. He's born November of 1957 here. He grew up in Nevada. He grew up with two sisters. So just him and two sisters. His mother, his name, her name is Connie. And we'll talk about her a whole lot. Connie's got a lot to say. So they're kind of an outdoorsy family. They hunt, they fish. Dad's around. Yeah. And J.C. being the only boy is real close to his dad. Yeah. Dad likes to take him to do, you know, boy, boy shit. Yeah. So he's the youngest of the three kids and the only boy. Nevada. Nevada on the west side. Probably. No clue. No idea. If I knew, I would have said he grew up in this part of Nevada right away. Probably near Tahoe, somewhere over there. That's where all the outdoorsy shit is. It would seem like that. Yeah. Vegas would be a real lame place to hunt and fish, I think. I'm going to go hike the strip. I'm going to go fish the reservoir for a while and see how that goes. Threw my line in that Bellagio fountain. Didn't catch shit. Not really anything. I did actually. I caught like a tourist from Iowa, but that's because I was using a dollar. I didn't catch about 30 feet of air. I was using a dollar as bait, so that's why. So, yeah, he's close to his dad. He's the youngest and the only boy, so you know his dad wanted a boy and he finally got one and he's trying to take advantage of it. Now, he is a real, he's a swinging wild kid, boy. I mean, when you hear like the phrase, like a wild and crazy guy, it's him. He's on the edge. You can't control him. His favorite thing to do, his mother said, when he was growing up, his favorite thing to do was read the Webster's Dictionary. Is that right? He's out of control. He's wild. I'll tell you. He's out of control. Wild. How are you going to stop this kid? Hey, listen, that's your dictionary curfew. It's 1030. Put it down, bud. Come on. Jesus. I had one of those. It was laid with gold leaf on the cover and shit. That thing was incredible. Oh, the dictionary? Yeah. It was a very impressive book. Very impressive book. It's not the Bible. You thought everyone was thinking, I was reading it like, oh, he's going to be a big Bible guy. Nope, dictionary. So, his mom said, quote, J.C. has a kind heart. As a child, he didn't like to see his playmates' feelings hurt. Oh. He's just a big, big softy. When he got older, a lot of people brought their problems to him. Oh. Because he's just, he absorbs it, you know? Yeah. He's just such an empathetic figure. And he would probably sum up all your problems in one amazing word. Well, he's going to have words for, actually, he's like, did you mean this word? He just constantly corrects your word usage. I don't think you use pervasive correctly. Let me help you with that. It's not the word you want. It's like the word you want right there. Let's find a better one. Come on. He starts opening the book. Now, here. Okay. The other thing his mother said, he could see things, things that weren't obvious to everybody else. He could see how things fit together. What? So, I guess she's saying he's very smart and sensitive is what I'm getting. Yeah. Observant, I guess. Yeah. She sounds like a mom who's real enamored with her son, you know. She loves this kid. And an only son, too, in a family from, like, early 60s, too. He's born in 57, so, you know, they wanted a boy. He had a bedroom painted baby blue. Someone to carry on the name. Imagine how much cowboy shit he had from the late. Oh, he had the little gun belts and the fucking hat and the whole lone ranger. He rode around a horse on a stick. Totally. He's also an Eagle Scout. Oh, that's impressive. Because, if you don't know, by the way, the Mormons have completely taken over the Boy Scouts. Have they? Oh, this was 25, 30, 40 years ago. They took over the Boy Scouts. What? They have taken over the Boy Scouts. The Boy Scouts are a Mormon organization, give or take, now. What? Absolutely. Girl Scouts. This is all news to me. Go on. Yeah, the Girl Scouts aren't. The Mormons are like that. And they kind of have taken over scouting, basically. How about it? So, being an Eagle Scout, if you're a Mormon, is, like, one of the things you do. Yeah. Not everybody, but it's a very common thing. Like, you go to church. You do your mission later on. It makes sense. You become an Eagle Scout. It's a very structured lifestyle, which kind of falls in line with the religion itself. And it kind of guides you how to go ahead and just continue that shit in our building once you're done being outside in your fucking tent. Here's how you don't think for yourself, ever. Here, you start here, and then you do this, and then you do that. Here's how we control all facets of your life. This is how we do it. Distract them with making them go out in the woods and find the fucking spruces. Well, now you can tie a knot. Great. That's terrific. Now, hey, maybe he can be a forensic scientist. Now he knows what pieces of brush are from what places. Now he knows what a cottonwood spark looks like. That's perfect. He went on a mission as well. His mission, not too bad. It is a crapshoot with these missions, by the way. You could end up in, like, the jungle, or you could end up in, like, oh, you're going to South Central, door to door. Philadelphia or El Salvador. Or they might send you. They might send you to Pago Pago. Like, literally, they might send you to some tropical island. They might send you to paradise. They might send you to, like, you know, Paris or something or whatever, some place you'd want to visit. Would it even matter? You can't even partake in the good shit there. No. I don't know what they consider the good shit. Sugar? Sugar. We got sugar, everybody. So he goes to Switzerland. So he gets a pretty decent one. Honestly, that's not bad. It's a two-year mission. I don't know. I don't think they're allowed to have chocolate yet. No. Now they can. They can have sugar now, yeah. And caffeine? Yeah. The Mormons are a fun one because they— They adapt based on what's fun? They're a business, and they don't hide it. Like, they just adapt to what they think would help them get more business. Yeah. Like, up until 1980, they said, if you were black, it's because the Lord was punishing you. Because you're cursed. Yeah. You're cursed, and you're being punished. Then in about 1980, they were like, Jesus, the Jeffersons are on, and this is a little harsh. Good times has just ended. It's useless, people. What's happening is over. This is pretty mainstream. Then all of a sudden, they were like, oh, you know what? We could all see some tithing. Yeah, there was a smudge on that part of what Joseph— Yeah, there was a smudge on that. Apparently, black people are loved by the Lord is what it is. So yeah, they're more than welcome now. And they do shit like that. It took forever for the Catholics to go, okay, fine, you can eat meat on Friday. That took centuries of people. That took centuries of people fucking bitching about it. Whereas this was like, hmm. They had a marketing meeting, and they were like, hey, we're missing a market. And so lately— A lot of tithing was given. It's almost like Mormonism is the mainstream country music of religion. It is, yeah. Handed to whatever group is popular. Whatever's going to sell a few more downloads. And that's kind of what it is, where they have— Also, like they have— Like now, the big thing is like those— Dirty sodas that you hear about. That's all from Mormons. Yeah, they made them. Because rather than going out and drinking, which isn't socially acceptable, they go out and have, you know— Dirty sodas. A soda that has enough sugar for like three months of your life, basically. And that's like, oh, man. I did so— Isn't this— We had a wild one last night, boy. I had whipped cream on it and everything else. It was crazy. I'm still going. I got the shakes from it. Like booze, almost. Yeah, a little bit. Close. We're trying to get it to be booze. I got the shakes like booze, but I can still remember everything. But I can still remember. I'm real sticky, too, for some reason. Everything's sticky. That's the same. It's the same. So he gets sent to Switzerland for two years. Yeah. Comes home, enrolls in Southern Utah State College, which is now Southern Utah University. That is in Cedar City, which we've done an episode on. Yeah. Cedar City. Now, he gets a degree in— Want to guess his degree? Ah, botany. Close. Zoology. Yeah. Zoology. He likes sciences and nature shit. That's what he's into. Yeah, he can tell you what stage this fucking insect is in. Probably. I don't know. Well, I think that would be—that's a different thing than zoology. Like botany? Isn't that like— There's a separate thing that's an insect person. Oh, all right. Yeah, it's a totally separate—but I mean, maybe zoology covers that. Sure. I know like an insect specialist is not a zoologist. Yeah, there's probably a vague universal coverage. Probably, yeah. You know everything about—everything from zebras to mosquitoes. You can figure it out, and you're good. So then, 83-84, he goes to Tuba City, Arizona. Oh, no! God, Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, why? That's a bad move there. So he can teach junior high. I didn't even know they had schools in Tuba City, Arizona. Isn't Tuba City—I thought it was only natives. I didn't know that they even allowed— I thought once you sprouted your— White people don't work there. I thought once you sprouted your first pube, they just stuffed you in a mine. I thought that's how that worked over there. I didn't even know they put you in school in Tuba City. Is it a reservation in Tuba City? Oh, okay. I didn't know that. There's a large population of—that's where Lori Piestel is from. Okay. So anyway, it's six months he spends doing the school teaching, teaching junior high science. And I don't blame him for wanting to get out of Tuba City. I could not get out of there fast enough. If I was stuck there working. He will later say that a recurring throat infection made him not be able to teach anymore. Yeah. That feels like a cop-out, right? It's just a—you know what I mean? I can't teach like this. It's just tough. It's tough to get it out. Perhaps it's the dust, man. I don't—yeah, or it's that. So in 1986, he spent two months as—this is so—his whole life is Madland. Like, it's—he's a junior high science teacher. He's a junior high science teacher in Tuba City, Arizona. Then he's a deputy police officer. Where? He's a cop in Mojave County, Arizona. I'm trying. Northeast. Northeast? Over by, like, St. John and shit? I think it's up that direction, if I'm not mistaken. I think that's Mojave County. Wow. Oh, no, no, never mind. Kingman and Bullhead City. So west. Okay, so yeah, over there. Over there, going toward Vegas. Over by Vegas. Big, just open spaces of meth labs. That's all it is. A nightmare up there. He works there for two months. Yeah. I don't blame him. That's depressing. Eight weeks is all you can take. That's all you can do. He's also a licensed EMT as well. My God. So, yeah, he does a lot of shit. In 87, he moves to—I guess his family, his parents, had moved from Nevada to St. George. I guess his dad wasn't doing so great health-wise. So he decided he was going to move to St. George in 87 to be close to the— to be close to the family, be around his dad as he, you know, doesn't do so well. So when he moves there, he starts working as a home health aide because he's an EMT. Basically about 10 hours a week he's doing this, just kind of part-time. He works with elderly patients in their homes. He's really running a full public service career in life. Yeah, and he's got a zoology degree and he's doing this. In-home health care, too. Man, let me tell you. That is a wild job. It's not. That's a tough one. No, that's a tough job. Anybody who can do that and do it well, holy shit. Hats off because I don't know how you do it. Travelling nurses that just go to different people. All that stuff is so nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go to places that don't have a lot of nurses and stuff when they need to. Yeah, it's interesting. Now, her—so that's where he goes. Now, his boss at this job said, quote, his patients loved him. J.C. seemed very— Very stable, very sure of himself, very capable of doing the job that we had him—that we had him for him. He always had a smile on his face. I don't think he ever came into the office grumpy. That's fascinating. Yeah. He's got restraining orders coming out of his asshole. And he's just nice to everybody else. For now, he's doing great. Yeah. He worked for the—for a time for the Medivisit Extended Home Care and for the St. George Surgical and Medical Clinic as well. Okay. - She's doing really well. really well um real normal kind of boring nice mormon guy in southern utah that's just who he is in his mid-20s by the 80s here you know professional of the box 30 yeah that's it helps his sick dad works with old people comes to work happy seems like a great guy at the time um november 1988 his dad dies of a heart attack fuck now this is hard on him and apparently he's real close to his dad they do all the outdoor shit together and they're real close and uh you know he moved to saint george to make sure he was close to him and all that kind of thing and then he dies apparently he goes into a pretty pronounced depression after that which is tailspin happens you lose a lot you lose somebody close to you depression often follows from that it's just the way it is um so he actually seeks help for his depression which in the 80s is no small feat different in 1989 that is not a small feat for someone to go to the doctor and say i am depressed can you help me because back then that was not standard operating procedure yeah it wasn't people would it was a much different era people would be like well fucking you know you just got to get over it that's what people would tell you yeah get over it yeah there's i mean there's a lot of uh tropes about it too in the 80s and movies where somebody just fucking didn't didn't do anything about it and had a a nervous breakdown it was like a a joke it's like i don't know man life piles up yeah leave me the fuck alone and whenever you'd see too in the 80s a huge movie and tv trope was the psychiatrist in the 80s somebody's sitting on the shrink you know i'm like i'm going to see my shrink and they're sitting on the couch they're never talking about depression never they're always talking about some fucking thing that either happened in childhood work problem or they're stressed out and they don't know who they are they're trying to find themselves it's always some like existentialist existentialist essential philosophical they're sitting on the couch laying on the couch like this and the you know the shrink is like smoking with his pad out and they go well oh what do you think of that and they go huh i never thought of it like that and they haven't in real life the psychiatrist is people that are sad and you're trying to figure out why you're sad what happened to make you sad to begin with and now let's work on that back from there in real life it's just a lot of that guy scribbling and then going yeah that's normal yeah totally yeah that's how you feel and then going you're not fucking unique yeah this isn't you're not a yeah but they actually have to treat it like you kind of are because in your head you are that's the problem but they tell you a lot that your problems aren't as complex as you make them that's kind of the point of therapy that's that's a big as you're making them right yeah but in the 80s a lot of not psychiatry but society was i'm depressed so is everybody get over yeah my job sucks i hate this my blah blah blah who isn't depressed get over it that's what being an adult is that's what i would you know what i mean that's what i always heard growing up was yeah being fucking miserables that's what being an adult is oh okay shit that looks bad this is how it is the trope of of it all was the the they were going real fucking deep in into what makes you who you're that's not what therapy that's not at all really breaking it down to simplified versions of yourself to i mean build tools of dealing with this tomorrow because you're not going to see me every day motherfucker so you might feel great for this hour yeah if you have plenty of money and you feel like dicking around and you got the time to do it sure yeah maybe you could do some of that but most of it what is trying to fix it an active problem that you have and get you your tools stretching you to your next appointment they prescribe him prozac oh now prozac is pretty fucking new at this point yeah because this is november 88 prozac was approved by the fda in december 87 so it's less than a year on the market yeah we don't think yeah we don't think now because now there's you know all all sorts of drugs for it and things like that but back then this was a new thing these ssris were pretty fucking new was this one of the first ones approved yeah i believe so yeah so um it it basically um prozac it becomes kind of the standard that everybody in the 90s if anybody was doing something the common throwaway joke was why don't you take get on your prozac and people would say that that was the common like weird yeah hacky fucking trope that comics and people would use so it basically increases the serotonin in your brain you're depressed you increase it now you're not so depressed um it was the biggest psychiatric drug in america in the last year i mean it was a lifesaver for a lot of fucking people this is i mean people if you are you know horribly depressed and you know suicidal and things like that if this is a you know a lifesaver for some people by by 1990 there's three and a half million users worldwide and really yeah eli lily is the drug company that puts it out and they are making a fortune off this shit right um the drug works based on their you know research here works in about 60 to 70 percent of patients yeah a lot of people when they go very depressed to get something like this they have to go through a few of them before they find the one that works correctly for them and that's the fucked up part about these things is that it also takes it often takes several weeks for it to really start working yeah and that's fucking crazy because with their with with depression and those kind of thoughts the last thing you've got is three to six weeks yeah exactly yeah especially if you're at that low of a spot where you you wait until you're at your lowest to go see the go see a doctor and yeah and deal with the type of shit so at that point it's like it's it's that's the last thing you've got is all kinds of time yeah and there's a ton too there's prozac and paxil and there's like your well butrins i think sarazon and this one and that one and now there's a bunch more of them that came out zoloft yeah those are all the kind of 90s ones and there's a million of them would you say i think that's an antacid the one last one you said zoloft oh no not as i thought you said zomig if i was like that's an antacid zoloft yeah i thought you said zomig after that there's all kinds of them the uh i mean i could keep going but yeah there's a ton of them so it uh you know basically is it's not like the other stuff they used to give you before that was shit that would just kind of knock you out it was like a horse tranquilizer you'd be sleepy a lot of them would make you get fat and lazy basically so if you're depressed fat and lazy isn't the best addition to your body changing and making you feel less happy is just going to make the depression well that's also some of the ssris make you have zero sex drive whatsoever which you know um some people don't care about because if you're in such a fucking horrible place of depression that you're worried about killing yourself sex drive probably isn't your first problem that you're really thinking about so you're happy just to feel a little bit better but after a while you're like hey i'd like to be normal you know so then it's you have to deal with that and so there's all sorts of different things and they can give you a different drug that helps with this and all sorts of shit like that so anyway um the university a psychiatrist quoted in in a news piece here dr fred reimer the director of the university of utah medical center's mood disorders clinic said prozac is effective because it's biochemically different in uh different in its actions okay so the demand gets very big um at one point here the uh that health expert said that the drug is quote so common here it should be considered one of the four food groups oh which i bet because also you have a lot of uh you have a lot of like housewives that have eight children also so i bet you they're kind of depressed from time to time that you know what i mean general area that everybody's on it huh in utah yeah now his mom connie said after he started taking it he just got to be very different he's a different guy she said he suffered insomnia headaches mood changes he fidgeted he just wasn't jc when he was on prozac wasn't interesting wasn't that guy um now they're not and these are the documented and warned about side effects headaches insomnia mood changes fidgeting trembling shit there's a there's a list of side effects that are possible that are basically in every drug you take that's what they are no matter what it is every goddamn thing there is yeah huge um you know that's the fda approved package insert has all these on there the only way for the fda to ban a substance is for them to have approved it in the first place and so all these things that have all these fucking side effects they're okay with that that's fucking yeah well what are you gonna do if it over if the overwhelming right if it's you know more good than the fix yeah and you're okay with these side effects then whatever and that doesn't mean it's not everybody that's the other thing you might not have any side effects or you might have a few or you might have and then you have to weigh is that worth it or not that's all i think that's how you do it just to take it yeah so 89 tough year for jc uh he tries to kill himself twice in this year while he's on prozac while he's on prozac with uh barbiturate overdoses he goes for so two two different times um that's a lot here i would say um So, he, the first time he tried doing it, Wrote his mother a note first before he took the pills. He was really planning on going out. Then, before he took the pills, he called his LDS bishop. He called his church bishop and asked the bishop to come over because, quote, my mother's going to need you in a little while. So you should come over. Oh, to console her. To console her. So he calls, writes his mother a note and calls the bishop to try to set his mother up beforehand. And so, yeah, the way he wanted it was he wanted his mother to come home, find the body, and have the bishop already be there so he could help her. Like, okay. So he survives both these attempts. They keep him on the Prozac. At some point, the doctor increases the dose at some point and doesn't take him off. Now, so his dad's dead, living with his mom. He's still working 10 hours a week. He's like 31 years old. His life isn't going exactly. How? That's how he wanted it to at this point. It's not great. It's not great. And the other thing I would say is the depression of losing a parent should be a temporary depression. Yeah, there should be a low. And then from there, it's a build, but it's an ebb and flow build. It's like a really good penny stock. Yeah, whatever the, which means it doesn't exist. It's a good IPO, I guess. It's just that at the beginning, it goes up, then it comes down a little bit. It's a roller coaster for grief. It's brutal, and it's not constant. No, no, no, no. But it's definitely something that unless you're eight, as an adult, you should probably naturally get over in a little while. Yeah. It's the circle. It's literally the circle and cycle of life. Certainly, yeah. Sometimes you just take the grief with you for the rest of your life. It's dulled a bit. Yes, but I don't know about that. I mean, the grief, yeah, and everyone would say, oh, I still grieve my mom and all that. But you're not actively thinking about your dead parents constantly, and you shouldn't be for 20 fucking years afterwards. If you're a depressive person kind of prone to that to begin with, it's one thing. That could end up just kicking you down that path. But I feel like if you're a happy person, normally, you have no depressive features. Your dad dies. You're a little bit sad. In about a year, you should feel better. Not 100% better, but to the point where you'd be like, okay, I've come to terms with it. Sure. That sort of thing, I would think. I mean, everybody's different, but still. They're also these people, Jim, that are so close to a parent that they are happy because that parent exists. Yeah, that's true, too. Because that relationship with that parent exists, that's what carries them. And then when they lose that parent, it fucking decimates them. And maybe if the dad wasn't too old. Yeah. It was a surprise that he died, too. That can be worse if it's a surprise. Because when someone is sick for five years, you. You should know that there's an end to this. Well, when someone's sick for five years, the death is drawn out. So it's not that big punch, and then you have all this depression. It's this depression that kind of gets watered down over time. And by the end, if people are honest, they actually are happy the person went. Relieved, yeah. Relieved. If it's not happy, it's certainly relieved because this poor bastard is not. Yeah. Doing all that bad shit that I've watched him do. It's not only that. In reality, when they're honest, they're actually happy because they've actually started to resent that person for being alive. Not on purpose. But that. No, that's what they say. Any psychiatrist will tell you that. They will. They are resenting that person for being alive, not on purpose. And they may feel. Putting all of us through this, yeah. They're just tired of it. And as a human being, you're like, fuck. But then they feel guilty for having those feelings, which compounds the whole thing and makes them feel terrible. So it's a horrible cycle. We're way off the subject. Anyway. Nancy. Back to Nancy. Remember Nancy Snow? In October 88, about a month before JC's dad dies, she goes to an LDS singles party and meets JC. Yeah. Okay. By the way, Mormons have very big mixers and singles and events and all kinds of shit like that, basically. Now, at this party, that's when Nancy and JC meet. And she's a few years older than him. Yeah. Been divorced twice. She's LDS, though. Born into an LDS family and all that kind of thing. So, close enough. You know, twice divorced happens. But one thing, the Mormons do divorce quite a bit. Yeah. But you are expected to get remarried real fast. And wear a cream dress. You can't wear a white dress. No, no. You can't wear a white dress, obviously. But they. That's a big deal. Like, they want to. You got to cook yourself right back up again. Otherwise, you're. A single person is not. With children is not respectable in their thing. In the 80s, anyway. I don't know about now. So, she's looking for a guy. And like I said, she's working as a receptionist at the St. George Care Center. Janice is the. You know, works there as well. Now, JC pursued Nancy after the singles party. He sent her flowers, bouquets of roses. Oh. Very romantic. He's very much. Traditional. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Shows up to the nurse. You know, sends the flowers. They show up to the nursing home. So, at work, she's got the big flowers on her desk like some people like. And he also shows up a lot at her job because he only works 10 hours a week or so. Uh-huh. And so, he just kind of hangs around her desk. Yeah. Which is weird. Like Jim from The Office, but he's not getting a paycheck for being here? I don't know that reference. Yeah, I know. Like. Like. Yeah. Like a. Like a. I don't know. I've never watched The Office. It's horrible. The. I'm talking the. Like. No, he's like a guy who's like 15, 16, and his girlfriend works at Dairy Queen. So, he always hangs out at Dairy Queen. He's just standing there. Because he can. Yeah. Yeah. But this is like an office and like a professional environment. You shouldn't be hanging out with your girlfriend. So weird. The administrator of the place said that Nancy, quote, became like a little rabbit. She was more like a possession he owned. Oh. Little rabbit's a weird way to put it. But I get it with the possession thing. Nancy doesn't tell her coworkers really what's going on. She also tells the coworkers that JC is smothering her and he always shows up and I'm tired of these flowers. And she doesn't really act like she likes him that much. She's like, I don't know. I think, you know, he's too much. Then in April of 89, after knowing him about six months, she just shows up one day at work married. What? We got married over the weekend. The courtship worked. Fuck yeah, it worked. It worked. Yeah. I'm Nancy Snow Gardner now. Wow. We put it on my paperwork. That's it. Like, got married over the weekend. So it's interesting. Their marriage doesn't go very well. No? No. Now, Connie, JC's mom, said he wanted to make it work. And off and on, she did. It was like a continual yo-yo. She just didn't want to be married anymore. Huh. That's right. Connie also said, I don't know. She also claims that Nancy used to call all the time, call Connie, her mother-in-law, to say that she's the source of the marital problems. Very convenient for Connie to remember that. She wouldn't blame myself. Oh, Connie, you're doing this. No, no, no. I'm doing it. Oh, Nancy is. Nancy would call and go, I'm fucking everything up. I'm the source of all of our troubles. Let me tell you. I'm wrong. Just all the time. God, am I terrible at this, Connie. It doesn't seem like it probably happened, but, you know, that's what Connie says. Yeah. Nancy moves out in three weeks. What? They get married, and in three weeks, she's not living with him anymore. Moved out of the house in three weeks. Three weeks. I'd like to say that is a crazy thing, but I'll tell you after the show, when I was a kid, I experienced an exact same thing, a three-week. Marriage? Sort of. Well, no, because it's lasted about 40 years, but it started out lasting three weeks. I'll tell you later. So, enjoy. June of 89, she files for a divorce. Uh-huh. Done with his bullshit, apparently. She also files for a restraining order against him when she files for the divorce. Ooh. Same day. September 89, the divorce is final. Now, JC doesn't take divorce as final. No? It's pretty fucking final, I would say. We can rekindle this. This is as final as it gets. Now, there is the claims, and apparently he does have some proof of this, that Nancy's sending him love letters over this period, though. Like, they're. Yeah, so there's mixed signals coming from both sides here during this whole thing. Love letters or explanations of why we're not together? Some love letters. Wow. Yeah, like, you know, I do miss you and that kind of thing. Okay. With the restraining order, too, so this is bad. Can't do that. And then sometimes she's saying, I don't want you near me, and sometimes she's sending him letters, and so, yeah, whatever. So, he then went over the top. He would stop with it and would show up at her job, show up at her house, send her letters, refuse to leave her alone despite a restraining order. Yeah. You know, if she actually is sending him letters, he needs to throw them right in the garbage and say, I'm not dancing with this fucking shit. I'm not doing it. But instead. Yeah. I don't even know if the letters are real, but that's what he says. Yeah. At that point, you'd got to be thinking, she got a restraining order on me. She's sending me. These are baiting me to come to her so that I go to jail. I'm not doing it, I'm not buying into your shit. Yeah, I don't think Mormons have that. dark of a turn of thought though no i think they honestly i don't think they think that that maybe they do but i feel like there's a that's because he wouldn't or she wouldn't we're from i don't think he would think that way or neither would she i think they would think that like oh you know this is on the surface i just i don't know they they don't seem quite as uh subversive and quite as uh you know quite as i don't even know if cynical is the right word here yeah they just ah they don't they don't seem to have as much street smarts as i mean they're raised to not really have street smarts that's the point i don't want them to have street smarts so it's not an insult to mormons to say you don't have street smarts just a lot of literally yeah everybody knows what for christ's sake so people that know that aren't street smart no so nancy snow and janice during this time uh where they're broken up nancy snow and janice become best friends okay are best friends here um nancy's the receptionist janice is the nurse um janice is going to get a promotion to be head of the nursing staff pretty soon here too uh they work in the same building see each other every day go out to lunch together you know whatever um and janice really is necessary for nancy nancy's really happy to have her there because she becomes her sounding board that janice becomes nancy's sounding board janice will listen to her support her because janice is a sweet woman she's just she's a nice girl as her mom said that's it um janice is the one talking to nancy about all of her problems and all the pressure she's under and janice gives nancy some advice okay she would uh this is from a co-worker she said fondren nurtured snow so janice nurtured nancy after the divorce urging her to stand up to her ex-husband oh stand up to him um she said janice is the friend who told her that quote you don't have to put up with this tell him to leave you alone don't let him be a creep you know don't just don't go along with this don't just let it happen if he violates that restraining order you call the cops every time that's good therapy yeah it is that's what she needs a good friend and you know janice just has her head on really straight that's just how she is as a person so jc continues to harass nancy she experienced all sorts of harassment including telephone calls uh even some like physical confrontation where he apparently roughed her up a little bit pushed her shoved her pulled her up against a wall why are you doing this shit like that um she eventually obtained a restraining order again but he continued to come to her residence and even would leave notes on her car proof that he was there which is the dumbest shit ever you're not supposed to be on my property oh i wasn't there i wasn't there well are you why is this note here and under my windshield wiper then stupid jc and give me a difference did you write this on the back of the chinese food menu that was left on her doorknob because it's here um may of 1990 is when janice gets the promotion uh to director of nursing um her boss said that janice was terrific one in a million she was one of the new young nurses who had such a deep deep energy and love for long-term care patients that is such a rare quality that's wow that's a great person to have around there so july of 90 at a bar that's when some shit goes down now st george does not have a lot of bars no really doesn't it really doesn't even salt lake city not really overflowing with bars and the ones they have are real fucking weird they're real weird we found a good place yeah that seemed like a lot of other people found there was a whole lot of people drinking in there after that volleyball tournament let out we found a way to get good wine drunk in salt lake city you're not allowed to buy a double in salt lake city they can't serve you to drink no that's weird that's so silly no but we had no problem drinking a bottle of wine look if somebody wants to get drunk we'll figure out how to fucking get drunk stop passing laws to try to keep me from getting drunk all it is is okay fine you're gonna have to walk back and forth one more fucking time is what that means if i'm at a table because i'll take one then give me another one what are we talking about here go get me another when you drop this off because it'll be gone by the time you get back that's it go uh start it start it going um so most of the bars are like uh there's hotels and things like that for tourists because people who come from out of town you know they're normal and want to drink like we don't have to partake by your fucking rules yeah i don't want a dirty soda i want something so it'll make me forget my problems at least i feel them as much nope so jc approaches nancy at the bar janice is with nancy and um janice was basically janice is the one people said that was out for drinks that night nancy was just hanging out with her she wasn't drinking or anything jc shows up and approaches yeah janice says let's just go and gets up and there's witnesses around saying this and janice yelled right in his face leave nancy alone shouting at him really getting in his face and saying get the fuck out of here and uh multiple witnesses heard her telling him to back off and leave her alone and you know go away so we can get out of here and really out of quite a confrontation that everybody saw then july 21st 1990 janice filed a complaint on her own behalf because he's getting her now he's harassing her right he pops up behind her back gate she's scared of him essentially um july 21st was the day that nancy saw him peeking through the back fence now july 22nd in the morning that is when they show up at the house there's blood yeah all of this so you can see why nancy said look at my ex-husband yeah because you can't think anybody else yeah now july 23rd 1990 the day after they discover the apartment and she's missing we still don't have any idea where she is janice we just know a large amount of what's presumed to be her blood is deposited on her living room floor and entryway so this day jc is arrested not for murder not for kidnapping not for any of the above he's arrested on misdemeanor charges including two counts of criminal trespass one count each of lewdness and telephone harassment oh now this isn't even stemming from the last couple days this is stemming from incidents on july 6th and july 9th involving janice and nancy snow that they've been investigating that he's yeah so they decided they were real and they arrest him for it actually it's violation of a restraining order lewdness all that he is released on july 25th after posting a three thousand dollar cash bail that's high so that's a lot for that so he for two days he's in jail till the 25th and they also know he is a suspect obviously now when they arrested him he was wearing shoes that matched the track pattern found outside the kitchen window yep so that's not good that's how they got uh richard ramirez by the way the night stalker those are fucking avias so that's a not great they were no super yeah do they even have uggs in 1990 i don't uh i don't know they may have only been in australia because that's where they came from yeah maybe um that's where you need boots australia yeah good hot warm boots good some nice furry hot warm boots for me to sit in the fucking outback when it's 140 degrees really good boots is what i need wool lined boots yeah essentially in our mind in australia you should either wear a sneakers sandals or something made of crocodile skin we're not sure what one of the three or or you cut up an old tire and string some string through it to make a flip flop yeah that's fine you can do that um milk carton now witnesses here they also find out that between 2 a.m and 2 30 a.m on the night that she would have disappeared this witness heard a vehicle outside janice's apartment and observed quote a man doing something to to janice's car and the car was backed up to the front door of the apartment oh so they saw her car backed up to the front door where all the blood drag marks were where there's like a hood up or something because they're doing something to the car yeah doing something they don't know what now the vehicle was observed pulling away 10 minutes later okay okay runs now a second witness also observed a male drive janice's vehicle into janice's parking spot at about 3 a.m this witness was walking to a friend's apartment and saw this so that she drives she had a ford thunderbird an 80s thunderbird and uh that's the car that they see yeah backed up and then someone else sees it pull in so we know about when it left yeah and about when it came back between 2 and 2 30 the car took off and then around three o'clock the car's back in the in the lot so presumably the body went into the car right drove off half hour and came back so we know the body isn't in oregon no it's uh it's a 15 uh 15 minute halo around here that's it has to be so that's something they figure out too that it can't be that far if those are the timelines and you never know people's times are fucked up but still whether it's within an hour an hour and a half it still means it's not in yeah you know uh you know we're really really far so all of this is enough to get a search warrant for jc's apartment house yeah house They get the search warrant. They go there. They find a folding shovel, like one of those shovels, two pairs of rubber gloves in the trash. In the trash. In the trash. A 9-millimeter handgun, which, by the way, 9-millimeter is the caliber they think went through the window. Yeah, because we got a shell casing of it in the floor. Up there, and we got the shell casing. So they found that. They also find 9-millimeter ammunition as well that he has there. So they send all that off to the lab. That's going to take a couple of days to get the ballistics back on that. So two days later, the police are informed by the crime lab that the pistol that was taken from J.C.'s residence is the one that fired the shell found in the apartment. Well, that was easy. That was pretty easy. So essentially what they believe is, this is the theory that they have working, on July 21st, after he knows he's got a restraining order and all that, he's sitting at home stewing. Because we knew he was home based on some calls that were made. And he's been thinking about Janice now for a few days because she put a restraining order on him and he's all pissed off. He somehow, in this period, he bought a folding shovel and bought two pairs, and bought gloves, rubber gloves. So he has two pairs of rubber gloves. And he already had a 9-millimeter handgun. Okay. Now, he tells. He will tell his mother. And his mother will tell everyone else later on that that day he took a double dose of Prozac. Double dose? Double dose. I don't know why he would do that. I don't know why. That's what he said. He told his mother that he was feeling, quote, extra depressed that day. Well, look, man, that's going to hit in about six weeks. I'm double depressed is what I got going on. It's a double the shit. So then they think of July 22nd, 930, he drove over to the apartment. The apartment has the back kitchen window that opens onto dirt, popped off the screen, male men's sneaker that's, you know, photographed and matched to his other shoe, goes in the kitchen window, has everything, the gloves, the 9-millimeter, the shovel, and, you know, did what he did. And we'll get into what that is exactly in a little bit here. So now Janice's parents say that she knew him. So they said, does he know? Does your daughter know this guy? Nancy said she knows her, but does she know him? And the parents said, yes, she does know him, but we wouldn't say they were friends. That's all she would say. There's some weirdly weird reporting in newspapers from the time that say that Janice had gone out with JC for a while in the interim. Did not happen. The mistakes. I was like, you can't put that in the newspaper. Jesus Christ. Luckily, we check more than one source when we're doing this to make sure to find it other places. I'm like, that's in nowhere else. As a matter of fact, she hated him and got restraining orders against him. That's just a mistaken. And Nancy met him first. Some reporter heard that and missed, missed, put that onto Janice and wrote an article about it. So that's tough. I'm sure they did a retraction or at least a correction on that one. So Betty, Joe and John, her parents arrive in St. George. That's Janice's parents. They arrived from South Carolina to go there and they're prepared for the worst because. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Obviously, it doesn't look like their daughter's alive. They told the Daily Spectrum newspaper that even though their daughter's case was being treated as a missing person, quote, we have every indication that our daughter is dead. They said, right. Betty, Joe said, the thing that has me so upset is that I may not have a body to take home. That's what's killing me. That is fucked up. That's fucked up. But there are definitely not nobody. No crime here. This is there's a crime and we're looking into it for sure. So at least there's not that. At least they're not going, well, I mean, she could turn up any point, so we really can't look into it. She may have left on her own. You never know. So they also said there's a lot of secrecy around the investigation, and the couple said that that is also very frustrating. They're not telling us everything. Yeah. Cops can't give you the information because if it gets out, they hold things close so they can get the real guy. You could accidentally let it slip in a press interview and then, you know, we're fucked now. So they said at home, meaning South Carolina, if this had occurred, there would be people coming out of the woodwork to find her. That's not happening here for. But they are. They're not just out randomly looking through a field, but they're looking. They're trying to figure this out more and more scientifically, I believe. But I get, hey, you show up. Your daughter's missing. They don't find her right that day. You're frustrated and understandable. It's also how we put people to death for false confessions in South Carolina. Maybe we take it a little easier down here. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe we do that. So her car is the thing they're really looking at her car. They note the there's black brush. It's what it's called. Black brush stuck to the undercarriage of the car. Now, it's a desert plant. It's a Caliogene Ramesissima. That's the if you were a botanist, you'd know it by that. Unfortunately, neither of us are botanists. Very common in the Mojave and Great Basin. So if you drive your car off road into the desert, basically, it's going to get up in your wheel wells and people will know you were in the desert and you'll move it somewhere else and then it'll rain and it'll grow there, too. That's right. That's how it works. So July 26th, 1990. Now, this is a day after J.C. gets bailed out for the harassment and lewdness and all that kind of shit. This is in the Chivwitz Reservation. Now, so we're outside the town. We're on to a reservation. Now, this is the fourth day that they're looking for her. Somebody and we don't know who we believe it's a police department. It wasn't a random person. Someone finds a body out here. It's a hundred and fifty feet off Camp Spring Road. Camp Springs Road. One mile west of Motocua. Is that how you say that? M-O-T-O-Q-U-A. I've never heard that one. Mataquoa? I don't know. And a few Mataquoa Road and a few miles north of U.S., old U.S. 90, old U.S. Highway 91. This is 15 miles west of St. George, which is the perfect amount of time. That's 15 minutes away. Bang, bang. Do what you need to do. Get back in the car within an hour. You're back 60 miles an hour, right back the other way. That's it. And it's on a highway. Yeah. Now, by examining the type of brush and tree limbs and road dust found on the Thunderbird belonging to Janice, they figured that the car was used to bring her out here, obviously. This is evidence they're putting together. Now, based on the foliage at first, that's why they were looking in this area. Oh. They were looking for basically, 'cause they had two parameters. They basically had, okay, place where black brush grows that is within this halo of us. Yeah. And they were looking for the white brush. 10 degree heat. This is a pie land out here, by the way, on the reservation. They find two blankets nearby from her house. They also find her pink pajamas there and her underwear in a pile nearby. So she was going to bed. Yeah, she was in her house. It was the middle of the night when this happened. She was in bed probably. She probably heard a noise, came out, and this confrontation happened. As you can imagine, I'm sure she wasn't shy when she saw him. She probably said, I'm going to call the cops, fuck you, and this is what happened. And they also find a beer can nearby. This beer can would be so helpful now, useless back then unless there's a fingerprint on it pretty much. All we notice is that this is somebody's brand. This is somebody's beer can. They never can forensically match that beer can to JC because there's no DNA. You can't get DNA off a beer can back then or anybody. Yeah, no, it's just a random beer can. But it seems it's right next to the. Pajamas and underwear. Certainly part of this, yeah. Looks like it goes together. Basically, this location is consistent with someone who wanted the body basically the fuck away from wherever they were, middle of nowhere. The body is identified as Janice by multiple things. Her number one, her clothing and things like that, and then dental records eventually to make it 100% positive. So now they go and arrest JC. All right. He's arrested outside the Hall of Justice building by law enforcement officers. I think they asked him to come in for something, and then they just, as he was walking up, they slapped the cuffs on him. And he's charged with first degree murder. Oh, boy. Oh, yes. And four related misdemeanor charges as well. Okay. So, yeah, Chris is a basically that one of them is that also they're saying this first degree homicide was in the commission of an aggravated burglary as well. What did he take? He broke in. Oh, got it. Yeah, that's. Yeah. So. Breaking and entering. And also stole her car. He brought it back. There's that. Yeah. So his bail is set at half a million dollars. Like I said, this is the first homicide case in this city in four years. Half a million sounds low, too, doesn't it? It does. But it's 1990. You got to look at it that way. That's like, you know, four million now, basically. Sure. Three and a half million dollars now, which still. And also, I think that he just has no chance of raising half a million. I don't think so either, yeah. Yeah. Back then, especially. Um, so at his arraignment, the judge denied his request for appointed legal counsel due to varied financial assets. If you have any money, they won't declare you indigent until you spend all that money on a lawyer. Then they can give you a lawyer. Um, so during the indigency hearing, uh, the, uh, he, JC said there was a large number of guns in his home that had belonged to his recently deceased father, which he had access to use. And which the court viewed as collateral for hiring his own attorney. Oh, so they said, sell those, sell you a bunch of, sell all your guns. Do that. Yeah. Now here is the theory that they've put everything together. He left his apartment at 1am with a nine millimeter Ruger pistol, entered the apartment, obviously taken off the kitchen screen when Janice heard it and came downstairs because her bedroom's upstairs when she came downstairs and confronted him, he shot her in the chest. Now they believe. I believe based on the wound and even with the decomposition that she died pretty much like she was dead within a minute. I mean, there's no, there's no, she wasn't being dragged out there alive or anything like that. Um, so they don't know, by the way, she shot once in the chest and there's only one shell casing. So they don't know if the bullet wound was a through and through that went, then went through the window. Probably. Or if that's a second shot. Uh huh. That went through the window. If he shot twice on the first one, she went down. The second one hit the window and the casing is just gone somewhere. Either that or he might've picked that casing up, but couldn't find the other one. Right. Cause you're in, you're frantic and it's the middle of the night too. So it's dark. So you might not have found them. Um, blood on the carpet, blood on the door, blood on the front porch. Um, you know, obviously dragging. Um, so they know the shot was from the inside of the apartment based on the shell casing and Janice. Um, they said basically, uh, so they're trying to figure out the number of rounds, but either way they figure he shot one of them. So it doesn't matter or both of them if there was two. So, um, he either shot twice or once essentially, uh, then he carries her and drags her out of the apartment to, uh, to her car. Obviously. Um, there's blood all over the place. He wrapped her in a bedspread and then placed it in the trunk of her own car. Which was backed up to the front door. Um, so this is just, I mean, he's just, he wrapped the body up and put it in the trunk like, like it was a fucking package. Um, got into her car. He had rubber gloves on and he wiped up some of the blood in the apartment. That's one of the things, some of the blood like on the walls is like wiped up. There's evidence of that. Um, drove out to the Chivwitz Indian reservation and turned onto a road leading to the Beaver Dam. Wash where he disposed of her body after he did, took her clothes off and God knows what else he did. Um, they found the black brush. Like we said, that's there. Um, then when he's done three o'clock in the morning, he drives 22 miles, uh, or that's we drove out to 22 miles out to there. This spot is 22 miles from Janice's joint, uh, from her place. Um, so he must've stripped her, removed her clothes and underwear, pajamas. Leave them behind. Also left the blankets behind a beer can. And, um, that they do say from the report, the evidence also suggests Gardner sexually assaulted the victim after he killed her. Terrible. That's, that's in the court documents. So that's horrifying. Then he drove back to St. George, um, with the black brush and the wheel wells and gets in his car and goes home. Wow. Like it never happened. Puts his rubber gloves in the trash, which by the way, they were still in the trash. That is four days, four days later at his home. Um, a lot of taking out the trash at this house. Yeah. Puts the folding shovel, which I don't even know why he had, I guess he got out there and was like, what am I going to dig a fucking hole out here? I'm not. Well, those holes are, uh, it's a hard ground dig with one of those little ass shovels. Oh, that's the best equipment. Deserts are so fucking hard. It's so hard to dig. That shovel is, that's to build a small fire pit and then be exhausted and sit by the fire. Exactly. In like the woods and soil, not in a fucking, not in the desert. So, um, anyway, that was there and he brought all that back and went to sleep, got up the next day, went to work, acted like nothing happened. Wow. Acted real normal. So can they get a confession from him? Because they have a lot of evidence. I mean, he kept it all in his apartment like an idiot. Yeah. If he doesn't confess, uh, he's real dangerous because this is fucking, well, this is fucking insane. He claims to have a hazy recollection of what happened. Not really sure. He doesn't really know what happened here. Um, apparently here he entered the, he said he entered the front door, which we know isn't true. You know, he came in the back door. Um, he says he climbed in a window. It's not even a door, not even a back door. So he claims he went over there. He believes it was very hazy recollection. He went over there to talk to Janice about reconciling with Nancy. Okay. Because your, your ex wife's friend really wants you to come over to talk at three o'clock in the morning. That's really when they're, they're up for relationship counseling. The one that yells at you in bars. Yeah. So he said, then she turned the lights on and threatened to call the police and mace him as well. Oh, she said, I have mace and I'll spray you. Cause she came down with mace. Cause yeah. And she came down and said, I'm going to mace you and call the cops. And so he shot her instead. Um, it's basically a quote. This is from the report. The next thing Gardner knew she was lying on the floor. Gardner reported. He became frightened, disposed of the body and brought the car back. Okay. Okay. Now, by the way, here are some reactions to this whole thing here. Um, remember her boss said she would skip into work. Yeah. She said last day she saw her quote. She just bounced across. That parking lot. And that was the end of her. It's just really disturbing. You know, the exact same reaction I had at three in the morning. I was like, what the fuck? God damn lady. That was the end of her. Like that is depressing. It's like a terrible nursery rhyme. Yeah. No more. Nope. That's it. Kids enjoy. So sure. Lesson. Don't skip. Don't be too damn happy about everything. That's the lesson. Uh, hold a little bit back. That's the lesson close to the best. So for later, one of her bosses says she was a friend to everyone. She was one of those people, uh, one of those exceptional people, one that won't be easily forgotten. I can honestly say I didn't know anyone who didn't like her. Um, and they also said, this is an enormous loss, not just to us, but to the entire nursing field. Okay. The world over the world over which one she's a good nurse. Yeah. She could have gone anywhere and plied that trade and done well. and help people. - Yeah, it's fascinating. His confession leaves out the part Where he shot her. Next thing I know, she's on the ground. That's how they always say. Yeah, next thing I know, she's lying on the ground. What do you do then? Who knows? So the problem now is jurisdiction. The murder happened in St. George in the city limits. The body was dumped on the Paiute Reservation. Which that, by the way, is an interesting thing because they're talking about in some scenarios that would trigger a federal jurisdiction. Under the Major Crimes Act. Which gives the feds jurisdiction over major crimes committed by or against Indians in Indian country. The problem is Janice is not Indian and neither is JC. But it's hard to determine where she died. Where she shot, we know. But when did she die? We don't know. She died in less than a minute. So she died in St. George. So then she died back there. That large pool of blood is unsurvivable, they say. That was enough blood to die on the floor. She was dead before she left the apartment. They know that much. So the killing happened off the reservation. The disposal happened on the reservation. Under the case law, particularly Section 6A, by the way, defines that where a killing legally occurs, the killing is where the death act occurs, which is St. George. So the jurisdiction is the state. But if either one of them had been Native American, it would have been a whole different thing. Then it would have triggered something. Then you would have had a fight over. It was on the reservation, but it happened in the city. But there are actually Indians, and it was on the reservation. It would have been a mess. So, yeah. Anyway, the prosecutor here is W. Brett Langston. I like when people have an initial first. In the 90s. W. Brett Langston. Really hanging on to it. Brent, not Brett. Brent. Yeah. So that's what they do. Now, the defense, he has a court-appointed attorney, and he is a character of the highest order. Wow. The court-appointed attorney is Alan D. Boyack. B-O-W-A-C-K. And you can go to a newspaper archive and just Google his name, and, oh, boy, there's some wild shit that comes up. He is a character. A character. And a very famous lawyer in this area here. Now, he is a real colorful guy. I've got to kind of give you a little on his background. He's 50 years old in 1990. He calls himself a big man and a big man. A big talker. Okay. That's what he says of himself. He says he's a big man with a big talker, and he tells stories with the flair. This is the Deseret News newspaper said he tells stories with the flair of a TV evangelist. Oh, boy. He's very bombastic in the courtroom, and he's a big guy, too. Big guy. He's very loud. You know, all this type of shit here. He also here was a Green Beret in Vietnam. Uh-huh. He was a special forces guy in Vietnam, retired from the Army as a lieutenant colonel. Those guys rarely talk. That's what I mean. You know, he's a big talker. He, you know, does all that kind of shit. They said about him, the Deseret News did a profile about him, and he said that he keeps the Green Beret in his office there. Oh, he still has it. Still has it and keeps it there because he wants people to notice it. Uh-huh. He said in his. In his words, the Green Beret is evidence that I like a good fight. I don't back down. So it's an intimidation thing. Yeah. He passed the bar in 1976, and this is hilarious because it piggybacks a conversation we had a few days ago. He passed the bar in what he describes as, quote, four and a half tries. My last attempt. Four and a half. I don't know what that. Yeah, I don't know what half a try is, but he said. Probably his first try. He said, I'm so stubborn that even. He just did half of it and left. I don't know any of this shit. He said, I'm so stubborn that even after four failed attempts at the bar, I kept going. Which normally. We were talking the other day, and that was our number, too. We said, if you fail your road tests for driving or the bar four times, you just don't get to do it. That's it. I think we landed on three. Three for a road test. Yeah. I don't know if we came to a conclusion on the. On the bar, but for a road test. I think the bar should be three also. If you can't pass it after three, I think you're done. Three on a road test is good news, bad news. Yeah. Good news. Or bad news first. You didn't pass. Good news is, here's a lifetime bus pass on us. You're never allowed to drive again. Yeah. Sorry. Be real kind to the Uber drivers. You're going to need them. Yeah. So that's what he's been doing. He gets that. He also. He pilots his own plane. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. He flies back and forth. He has a satellite office in Century City in L.A. In L.A.? Yes, where he has. He commutes by his own plane between L.A. and St. George, and he does a bunch of celebrity-type cases, including he worked on the estate of Howard Hughes. Really? Howard Hughes, Howard Hughes, billionaire, eccentric lunatic. After he died? Yeah. Yeah, he worked on the estate for that, which was a big, giant case. He was a public defender in Utah for years. He's on the list of public defenders in the area, people that can be called to do this. He's handled multiple murder cases. And the other weird thing is, at the same time that he's a high-powered, multi-jurisdictional defense attorney, he's also the Mojave County, Arizona coroner. What? What? I don't know. I don't know. That's what he also does. I guess you'd have to live there, right? I guess not. I don't know. It's across the border there. Who the fuck knows? But I imagine, Bullhead City Kingman, there is death there all the time. All the goddamn time. Those people are so fucking old. Plus, they're killing each other over meth constantly. Yeah. And the heat, between the heat, the meth, and the old. And the age, yeah. It's all day. So he's got a radio mounted in his car that connects to the whole sheriff's office. Wow. He does that. Which is really weird. So technically, he could drive, declare a body dead, and then go back and defend the guy who killed the body. Technically. That's unbelievable. Which is crazy. I don't know if that would be allowed, but it's interesting. He was also, and this is another thing, before he was an attorney, he was a police officer in Bountiful City as well. Where the fuck is that? That's in California, isn't it? That's in Utah. Oh. So he's been special. Horses, Green Beret, a Hollywood attorney, a pilot, a coroner, a cop, a public defender. This is the guy that he needs as his lawyer because he's done all that shit too. He knows that. Yeah. He's like, listen, you think that's a lot. So the first thing he wants to do is pursue an insanity defense. We're going straight insanity here. Oh, we're going to go, I admit it, and I'm crazy. That's right. He says about Prozac, quote, I let it go right over my head and was pursuing an insanity case. I had never heard of Prozac. I didn't know what it was. Really? Which is interesting for a coroner. You'd think that would be a- Yeah. And a guy in LA. Yeah. Well, you'd think that would be a substance that would come up in dead bodies once in a while. Yeah. It would be that. So you- You'd think Howard Hughes was mainline in that shit. I would hope so. Well, maybe not. That's why he was so weird. Well, yeah, he may have been dead before that anyway. Well, he was dead before 80. Was he dead in the 80s? 88. Yeah. I thought he died in the 70s. Did he? Doesn't matter. He died on a plane, James. Isn't that crazy? He loved planes. Yeah. So he learned about Prozac only because during talking to a buddy of his about this case, a pharmaceutical salesman who was a fraternity buddy of his mentioned it casually offhand. And this pharmaceutical sales rep he knew mentions at some point that, hey, this drug Prozac, I hear people do weird shit when they're on it. You should look into that. Yeah. So then he said, oh, boy. So he interviewed mom, Connie Gardner. And when he's doing this, he's just building his insanity case. But he gets J.C.'s biographical material, says he's, you know, reads the dictionary, Eagle Scout, LDS mission, the whole deal. Then he hears about the Prozac. And he said he called it his, quote, light bulb over the head moment. He said that he heard from Connie that that J.C. was extra depressed on the day of the murder. And she said he took a double dose of Prozac. So that was then that was after he had heard from his fraternity buddy who told him about that shit. And he says, hold on. Wait, tell me about that pill again. He says to his buddy in the pharmaceutical sales. But I want to know more about that. And he said that that's when he started thinking about building a defense on involuntary intoxication. Oh, involuntary. Now, here are some Prozac issues. And this, by the way, they've been talking about this. For almost 40 years. And it continues to this day. And there are people who say they should ban all the SSRIs. That would be a disaster. Oh, you think there's a lot of. Unmitigated disaster. You think there's a lot of death and carnage out there today. Oh, forget about it. Unmitigated. Yes. Unmitigated. Exactly. There's. People do weird shit on everything. Whatever you do. Some people take Benadryl and freak out. So it's not. It's you got to find the right. thing and every once in a while something happens but if you ban this then you also have to ban other shit that that well you gotta understand that any drug that you're taking that's uh a drug that's to balance chemicals in your body can have an issue and that thing in there that little noodle is so fucking fragile oh yeah everyone is different everyone is different for the most part at least when it comes to how their brain chemistry reacts to medication very different and very much it can go it's multiple different ways delicate balance but to to ban those things because some people have a problem with them would be akin to banning fucking peanuts because people are allergic to them sometimes like you can't do that you know if you do that and we still sell fucking ar-15s i don't want to hear your you know if we do that point you know what i mean we're still allowing people to throw you know what i mean all their money away on fucking fan duel then fuck you that's what i mean you don't care about people react to things differently exactly so now in february of 89 a harvard psychiatrist dr martin teeker publishes a paper in the american journal of psychiatry so this is very legitimate now the paper documents six depressed patients four of whom were also taking other drugs at the time okay which is important and by the way it's also important for our guy that we'll talk about and they developed some of these developed intense violent suicidal preoccupations after two to seven weeks on the prozac this paper estimates that 3.5 percent of users may be at risk for this particular syndrome which is minuscule it's also about the amount of events based on how compared to how many people are on it yeah no but i mean 3.5 percent of millions of people is a shitload of people yeah but it's still a small percentage compared to the people who get helped by this shit as well so who knows and we're not we're not doctors and we're not fucking we're not members of congress or the fda so we're just going off of what this research research says and we'll dozens and dozens of people that medicate and are doing fantastic because of it oh absolutely that we're a mess before oh my god and it does it will change your i had i had a girlfriend in high school that her mom got sick and she went on prozac and she was within a week a completely different person we were never we never like liked each other again like it was it was just she was just a totally different personality was completely different but she wasn't suicidally depressed that's so you know that's good for her kids in a bathtub that's nice that's nice yeah so i mean there was that i mean you know so i mean it will change who you are a little bit because anything will yeah you know you just got finding finding what works for king enormous so it's big good luck on your journey now the this paper even though it sounds kind of pro prozac yeah saying that the people who had the problems were people who were on other drugs for the most part and either way it's only 3.5 percent the people who don't like this type of thing at all jump all over that as like see that's why you shouldn't do it number one church of scientology number one two and three are them because they don't believe in drugs and they don't believe in psychiatry they don't believe in any of that shit one two three are l ron hubbard uh tom cruise and john travolta they believe that if you give them all your money you'll be fine and you will and you'll be fine um so they run an anti-psychiatry advocacy group quote unquote called citizens commission on human rights they got a lot of balls calling it that meanwhile it's horse shit to force people to do our dumb shit that we want them to do even though we are a crazy cult so danny masterson rapes people that's right and we we help cover it so by 1990 they're putting out press releases about prozac the scientology people are um they talk about uh september 1989 a 47 year old printing pressman named joseph wesbecker in louisville kentucky walked into his former workplace the standard gravure printing plant attached to the louis louisville courier journal with an ak-47 and shoots 20 co-workers killing eight of them before shooting himself dang he'd been on prozac for about five weeks when was that 1989 september uh he had a long history of severe mental illness had been institutionalized and was not only on prozac but a quote cocktail of psychiatric medications and the prozac was the new one but the families of his victims advised by personal injury lawyers sued eli lilly and like saying the prozac is what did it not the complete cocktail of other shit he was on um so they had a trial this is all by the way we're not just trying to give like uh this is how we feel about we don't know shit we're not doctors we're just giving you the legal background on it because it's important for the actual case later so there was an 11 week trial in 1994 well after this murder thing here the jury finds an eli lilly's favor but five years later it comes out that eli lilly had reached a secret out of court settlement with the victim's family before the verdict came in and never told the judge basically they wanted to look like they'd won a jury trial but they realized that they needed to pay out so they paid out so it's a settlement out of court essentially now the judge went back and changed the official designation of the case from verdict in favor of defendant to settled so that way they couldn't say that they won the case essentially um but that was in 1995 so that's way later now they also um conducted studies on prozac for eli lilly as well as the clinic uh clinic's internal use and uh as a therapist and researcher this one guy the reimer guy said he had seen it work on about a thousand patients and plans more studies the american journal of psychology is the one that talked about the harvard guy they said the patients who developed the violent suicidal preoccupations all had self-destructive thoughts before um and they said that the they suspected that the drug may have contributed to a new intensity in it and that's by the way one of the side effects they say is suicidal thoughts sure but i but when you have those you have to go to your doctor and say you're having those and then they try to fix the medication that's not working with you um seems like that's what they're trying to tell you is that it makes you okay with things do you know what i mean that's what it's supposed to do yeah yeah it makes you okay with going forward with some of those bad things maybe it makes you not so sad about it you know what fine um other studies have shown uh on thousands of subjects have shown opposite results and doctors acknowledge that the depression itself can result in suicide and violence they're like these are people who are suicidal to begin with so this they might just this might not have worked enough on them but actually rather than intensifying those feelings it might just not have worked enough which then would make them even more depressed that i went and i got medication and i'm still depressed and they kill themselves i tried to get help it didn't work fucking and my ass is fat and i got a fat ass but this doesn't cause that so that's good now then there is the grunberg precedent this is very important for utah the boy act the lawyer the green beret coroner lawyer thought the prozac defense might have a shot in front of this judge in saint joseph george philip eves uh because a couple years earlier in a different drug case there's the uh elo grunberg case or ilo grunberg uh this was in 1988 june 19th 1988 in hurricane utah there's a town called hurricane that's never seen one it's about 20 miles northeast of saint george still in the county though okay um now this ilo marie grunberg was 57 years old lived in a mobile home in hurricane with her 82 year old mother mildred oh god now mildred has alzheimer's she's hard to deal with uh ilo is the caregiver okay now it's tough um the two women have a hard time as anybody does dealing with an alzheimer's person in a one you need help with that you know what i mean they get very irritable because they don't understand everything that's happening and they're adults and they fuck yeah i don't want to be told what to do yeah yeah and they're violent they're nasty uh they get really mean sometimes so mildred according to later filings is a burden to ilo she's tired of it ilo had recently lost her job and can't find any more work and money's tight and stress is going her mom's getting worse and worse and worse mildred is on uh you know she's an alzheimer's patient and ilo is on three different medications valium and a brand new at the time not brand new but reasonably new sleeping pill called halcyon what which is a strong one that's a strong by the way halcyon is the shit all the wrestlers in the 80s used to put in women's drinks and knock them out and fucking do weird shit to them they all say oh yeah just drop a halcyon in their drink and that's the end of that she's taken painkiller uh uh to a painkiller valium and then and then this halcyon's to sleep yeah um that's manufactured by upjohn by the way which we'll get into now halcyon at this point was the most prescribed pill in the world. Sleeping pill, not pill. Prescribed sleeping pill in the world. It's in the benzodiazepine area there. Same family as Valium Xanax, Ativan, that kind of shit. But it has a, basically, it's got a short activating window where you take it, you sleep, you wake up, and you feel fine. You don't feel like, oh boy, oh man, I need another two hours of sleep. Yeah, so the dose she was prescribed, Ilo Grunberg, is 0.5 milligrams a day, a night. Take it at night. Now, March 88, three months before the killing here, Upjohn stopped manufacturing the 0.5 milligram tablets because they'd been getting reports that 0.5 was too high for some patients and causing a lot of side effects. So Upjohn didn't, they stopped manufacturing it, but they didn't recall the 0.5 pills. Okay, so once they're out there, we'll let them get rid of them. Even if they're in pharmacies or whatever, don't pull them off the shelves. And they didn't tell the doctors that the 0.5 milligram had been discontinued. They sent letters to pharmacies about a suspension of the dosage, and the letters didn't go out until eight days after Mildred was already shot. It didn't help there. So Ilo Grunberg was prescribed a dose that the manufacturer didn't really want to make anymore here. And June 19, 1988, Ilo Grunberg, gives her mother a birthday card because she turned 83 that day, then shoots eight bullets into her while she's sleeping. Her mom's sleeping, and her head and neck just shoots her eight times with a handgun. Then sits down and writes a detailed confession, then calls the cops. Oh, my. She snapped. So a deputy with the Washington County Sheriff's Department arrived, and he, by the way, is Ilo Grunberg, Grunberg's former son-in-law, because it's a small town, that's what happened, which is crazy. So the responding deputy is the dead woman's grandson-in-law, and, you know, it's crazy. So anyway, they charge her with second-degree murder. In that case, the defense attorney here, it's in front of the same judge that J.C. has. Now, Grunberg's defense team brings in two psychiatrists who testify that Ilo Grunberg was involuntarily intoxicated by the Halcyon at the time of the killing. Too high. Too high. Now, the judge, on February 8th, 1989, dismisses all charges against Ilo Grunberg, rules that the killing was a result of Halcyon intoxication that rendered her temporarily insane at the time, and they let her go. They even get her on, like, a secondary charge. Fucking shocking thing I've ever heard. It's crazy. Yeah, she's, like, the one person who that shit worked for. Wow. So, this was the first successful involuntary intoxication by prescription drug defense in a murder case in Utah history. And it worked. And it worked. So, first move after being freed is filing a $21 million civil lawsuit against the Upjohn Company. The suit alleges that Halcyon is a defective drug and that Upjohn failed to warn regulators and the public of its severe and sometimes fatally adverse reactions. This goes on for two years, which is a lot. Now, in 1991, on the eve of the trial for Upjohn and Ilo Grunberg here, which, during that trial, Upjohn would have been made to produce 8,200 pages of internal documents about how Halcyon's side effects work and all that. To the public, that shit would have been open. Instead, they settle. As part of the settlement, that shit never gets released. There's confidentiality. And we don't know. How much she got? Nope. The 8,200 pages were sealed by a federal judge as part of the settlement. And Grunberg's attorney, who argued the documents need to be public, agrees to the seal in exchange for a shitload of money. It's multiple millions of dollars. We gotta stop that. That's insanity. We gotta know why that happened, right? I think we should, probably. Yeah, that's crazy. I mean, I get that it's. I understand it's a company. Legally. And it's a company. And we're talking about trade secrets. They can always say there's trade secrets buried in there and all that. So I understand that we're fucking. We're fighting with public. With public need and public safety against the privacy of a person or company. That's always just gonna be litigation in this country like crazy. Those two things really butt against each other. Every day. All day. In this country. All day, every day. Now, JC has a strategy here. Okay. Okay. And we should say his lawyer, Bayock, has a strategy. He calls Joseph Charles Gardner, Mr. Wonderful. He's Mr. Wonderful, this guy. Don't worry about it. Paul Orndorff over here. He's the type of guy who'd look after elderly, home, healthcare patients. Even on his days off, he'd go do it. He's just a nice guy. His lawyer said all that changed when a general practitioner prescribed the antidepressant Prozac. A year and a half later, this wonderful. Mr. Wonderful, this nurse and this lovely man and this, you know, he knows all about zoology, Mormon missionary. Now he's a first-degree murder charge. Caganova's had no way. He said JC Gardner is not, in the classic sense, a murderer. This is what he says. Okay, classic sense. Quote, what you become on Prozac is a psychopath. Oh, sir. Yeah. He said that, you know, he started taking Prozac. He was melancholy over his father's death. He met Snow. Around that time, in the meantime there, he exhibited marked personality changes, became irritable, obsessive, and suicidal. He tried suicide twice. They say also Gardner, who suffers from recurring throat infections, was taking 13 other medications. Oh, my God. Okay, you have no idea what the Prozac did to his brain because he's on 13 other things that could fuck with that, too. Yeah, 13 other things that are working in concert. That's. I mean, you strip down Dave Matthews' band's performance, the song changes every time you take an instrument away. If you add 13 more instruments, it's a fucking mess. It just sounds like. It sounds like if you gave. Everybody shut up. It sounds like an orchestra comprised of five-year-olds at that point. That's basically what Dave Matthews is in a nutshell. Five-year-olds just sliming shit together. There's worse shit out there. Is there? I don't know. Yeah, anything country. Everything he does, though, has a million fucking sounds. It's just too many sounds. It's an assault. You know what, too? I haven't listened to a lot. I know somebody that played live stuff of Dave Matthews. I was like, that's not bad. That's what I think. It's not bad live, I think. I don't really like the songs, though. I'm really into it. I just don't remember a Dave Matthews guy. There's just too much shit happening. And he doesn't even put words to it. I don't know what those words are. He's got a very good drummer. So, 13 other things. 13 other medications. That's absurd. His lawyer, quote, won't say what they were, but is having a forensic pharmacologist research their interactions. And then he never comes back with some, oh, here it is. This made it happen. So, we don't know what the fuck happened in there. And we don't know which one of these medications. Do we know are they prescription or over-the-counter or anything? We don't know. He won't say. He just said he's on 13 other medications, which makes me go, and you blame that one? That's that. That particular one, yeah. And not the reaction between whatever. When you take, when they prescribe you Prozac, do they say make sure you take 13 other things with it? I don't doubt that. I think there's a pharmacist will tell you, don't take many other things with this. As little as possible. Take this only with food. Don't take this with alcohol. Alcohol's not great. There's all kinds of things not to take with them. So, now, the lawyer said that Gardner remembers being at Janice's house, but that he blacked out. And can't recall pulling the trigger. He said, this is an amazing quote. An amazing. Janice Fongren was almost an incidental figure in this. The murder victim is almost an incidental figure. You know, not a big deal. Wow. But he focused, but he'd focused on her. If you put it in rational terms, there was no motive. It was spontaneous as hell. No, there was a motive. She was filing restraining order. She was filing restraining orders against him. And she's the one saying, get the fuck away from your ex-wife. She doesn't want to talk to you. And also putting that in the ex-wife's head. So, he has lots of motives to kill her. Tons. And even if that's not the case, if I'm sitting on the jury and a lawyer says that to me, I go, wait a minute. He didn't have a motive. This was spontaneous. He's much more dangerous than I thought. Yeah. Well, that's his way of saying the Prozac just put the thought in his head all the way. Kicked him over the edge. Right. Yeah. Meanwhile, this is something that he's clearly been pissed off about for a while. For a while. Yeah. So, yeah. The deputy county attorney here, the prosecutor, said the prosecution does not believe that he is a victim of involuntary intoxication, although if he wants to raise the issue, go for it. He said that's the ultimate issue the courts will have to decide. Put it this way. If he asserts a defense that he was not in full possession of his faculties, we'll try to prove otherwise. Okay. This explodes into national news. Oh, God damn it. Prozac is the hottest word going. Prozac becomes the. The Viagra of the early 90s. Remember in the late 90s, every joke's punchline had the word Viagra in it somewhere? This is – Prozac is the early 90s version of that. Four-hour boner. Yeah, that happened later. Four-hour. Four-hour. Four-hour erection. That was what people used to say all the time. Yeah. So the – March 1991, it comes out huge. There's a 3,000-word profile by a reporter in the Deseret News with the headline, Prozac on trial, involuntary intoxication? Defense attorney in murder case intends to prove wonder drug is guilty. Wow. Okay. In the same issue, by the lawyer's accounts, he said that there are about a dozen active Prozac defense criminal cases pending in Utah, in California, Florida, and New York. Wow. Judges in California and Illinois have already agreed to allow Prozac evidence in criminal trials. Huh. And some have started letting juries hear. Side effect testimonies. This is wild. I never even knew that this was a thing as a defense or a label for that drug until after Columbine because one of those boys was on it, too, and they claimed it for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is – It's a bit late. Again, how much planning? What are we talking about here? You know? Yeah. You've got letters. Come on, dude. They made bombs. It took a long time to do that. Yeah, they had tons of time to figure that out. They drugged them into the school. Like, there's so much. That's what I mean. So much. You got dressed, bitch. Yeah. That's it. Eli Lilly had been named in over 50 civil lawsuits by spring of 91, alleging Prozac caused a, quote, out-of-character suicidal or violent actions. So, now, this is – mainly there's a personal injury lawyer named Leonard Fines or Fins that has 60 individual plaintiffs lined up. He's Mr. I got a hammer and I'm looking for some nails here. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I'm looking around, looking for people to add to this case. Someone famous jumps in here. The widow of the former – or not really former. I guess he was still doing it. The musician Del Shannon. You know who he is? No. My little runaway. Run, run, run, run, run, runaway. That's a 60s song. 60s, yeah. Early 60s or whatever. That's him. Carhartt music. And his widow is? He apparently died at 55. Apparently committed suicide at 55. He died at 55 in February of 90 with Prozac in his system. Now, back to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights, which is a euphemism for Scientology horseshit, which is really what it should be called. They start pushing the story everywhere because that's their agenda. You don't need this. You just come to Scientology. So, Eli Lilly has a full-on PR problem at this point. Oh, boy. Yeah. They say that this is one doctor here. This is Dr. Fred Reimer who says he's seen a three-year-old. He's seen a three-year-old. He's seen a thousand patients on Prozac and hasn't witnessed the horror stories and thinks the drug is an important drug that helps people. It's fascinating that people that are unwell mentally that are on mental mood stabilizers are unstable. And then they blame the drug. Like, they weren't fucking whacked before that. They were trying so hard to get okay. Perhaps they're too far not okay. It makes no sense. So they also said, and this, I think, is what it all is. It's all about, quote, Prozac may be overprescribed. That's the problem. A little bit overprescribed. Everything's overprescribed because people want to give people what they want. They shut them up and get them out of their office. It's just that's human nature. But it works for some people. So when it works, you're going to prescribe it because fucking this might work. Because it worked. Yeah. Absolutely. So Prozac may be overprescribed and doctors may need to monitor users more carefully. The standard 20 milligram dose may be too high for some people. And also says it shouldn't be overprescribed. It shouldn't be combined with other drugs or alcohol. And it says it right on there. And when you do that, all bets are off, which is, you know, duh. So smoke weed and then drink. Do them separately. Then do them together. They feel much different. It's weird. It's just that you combine the two. Now you got a different thing. But when you're taking something that's a suppressant and you're taking another thing that's a suppressant, you're going to suppress so much. Yeah. And then also maybe two negatives. Two negatives equal a positive sometimes. And that's a problem, too. Maybe that'll make you more aggressive rather than two suppressives. Two suppressions equal one aggression. Who knows? We don't know. This shit isn't meant to be done together. So September 1990, J.C. is admitted to the forensic unit of the hospital here so the doctors can evaluate his competency to stand trial. In February 1991, the state's forensic psychiatrist concludes that Gardner is incompetent to stand trial. Is that right? Yes. Incompetent. The doctors are then ordered to continue evaluating him to determine when he will be competent. And as a part of this, they're specifically tasked with evaluating the effects of Prozac on his brain because that's what the defense is going after. While they're monitoring him, they monitor him both on and off the drug. I'm not curious. So they run a clinical comparison with a medicated J.C. versus a non-medicated J.C. They keep him under observation. They take notes. His lawyer visits him at the hospital and he says, wow. And he says that this is one of the better, wow. He says, quote, they found my client funny at the funny farm. That means he's incompetent to stand trial. He is a quote machine, this guy. Well, that would take so long because the drug takes a while to get out of your system to get back to the balance. And then to re-drug takes as long or longer. Yeah. That balance. They have to do whatever he's competent. That's just pushing trial two years down the fucking road. They don't really care about when it happens. They need it to be medically. Yeah. So he also says, quote, I can tell the difference from the legibility of his writing and the trembling of his right arm. He says he can personally tell the difference whether he's on Prozac or not on Prozac. They said trembling, by the way, is a documented Prozac side effect. Psychomotor agitation. So a little tremble in the hand or whatever. He also says that the lawyer says that his strategic position here is that, quote, truth is the longer his client stays at the state hospital, the better. It buys him some time to build a case against Prozac. Basically, he also says, quote, in my opinion, anybody facing the death penalty for murder earns the right to depression. Weird, weird thing. So he remains in the hospital. He says that the lawyer. Said doctors believe Gardner is so totally depressed that he cannot assist in his own defense. Then he says, I agree. He said, if Gardner is depressed, it's because he's facing a possible death penalty. And yeah, that's terrible. Janice's family. The problem of all this. There's people waiting for results here. Like you were saying. He said that they're frustrated with the wheels of justice cranking so slowly and they're afraid that Janice's murder is going to be forgotten. It's going to get pushed under the rug somehow. So in Utah now, OK, there are there's a statute here that defines mental illness, the defense of using mental illness. The statute says if you can prove that at the time of the crime, you suffered from a mental illness that prevented you from forming the required mental state for the crime, you have a defense either. Yeah. Either insanity or diminished mental capacity. The statute also has a clause that says if you're under the influence of voluntarily consumed alcohol. Controlled substances or volatile substances. You're not excused on the basis of mental illness. That's voluntary intoxication. OK. You can't say. Yeah. The controlled. I got something prescription. That's not prescription to you that you're not supposed to be taking. That would be voluntarily took a leisure drug or whatever the fuck. Yeah. You can't say having fun. I didn't mean to strangle my wife. I was real drunk because there'd be about half the murders in this country wouldn't be. I didn't mean to strangle her. I was on PCP. And I thought she was a squirrel. Boy, I mean, I hate squirrels, by the way. Hate them. It was rabid. Trying to steal my nuts. I don't take that shit. I don't take the mouth and shit. You got to strangle those. I keep a large collection of nuts in my house now and I don't need them taken. Now, the statute, though, does not say what to do with involuntary intoxication. So he's trying to find a loophole here. The legislature, when they wrote it, didn't address it. They don't address. The doctor told me to take a pill. That's not involuntary. Now, to make it worse, the statute used to be different. Prior to 1983, Utah's mental illness defense statute used what's called the irresistible impulse test. In pre-83, the statute said if you suffered from a mental disease or defect that caused you to lack substantial capacity to either appreciate the wrongfulness of your conduct or conform your conduct to the requirements of the law, you have a defense. Okay. Basically, in 83, the Utah legislature took that apart. They repealed the. irresistible impulse prong leaving only the cognitive prong did you know what you're doing is wrong if yes you're guilty doesn't matter how crazy you are essentially and a lot of states did this in the 70s there was they went too far with people getting off on getting quote getting off on mental illness things so in the 80s everybody made laws that said basically if your head is attached to your body you did it and fuck you doesn't matter how crazy you are doesn't matter if you have nine personalities if you thought you were on another planet doesn't matter if you ball the body up in a in a bed sheet and take it out into the woods does that prove that you knew the wrongness you know what i mean i would say so absolutely but like that this is mainly like in georgia that chloe driver case the girl the young lady who killed her baby and then tried to kill herself and she was literally fucking insane had no idea she was on another planet crazy and the everybody knew it including the judge including everybody but the prosecution the only way in georgia for this to be okay is if she's so crazy she thought the baby was trying to kill her so that was what it was that's the it's such a narrow thing you have to be so crazy that you think they're trying to kill her there's no way to prove she thought a six-month-old was trying to kill her so she was automatically guilty even though everyone in that courtroom knows she's crazy as a fucking loon and doesn't belong in prison you know at least right not yet um so anyway that's what they're doing um so the pre-trial theory from bayock the lawyer is my client took prozac doctor prescribed it that means it's involuntary the code the utah code doesn't address involuntary intoxication therefore the court should fall back to the pre-1983 standard which is the same as colorado's current standard at the time which includes irresistible impulse under that standard jc lacked the capacity to conform his conduct to the law because of prozac's side effect there we go it's good this is why he's got a plane this is what i mean you have a plane for a fucking reason this is clever shit i mean as far as legality goes not guilty your honor no yeah if you're if you're the fondren family you want to fucking murder this guy with a fireplace poker but if you're you know if you're everybody else just in the legal system it's it's it's gamesmanship you know so the judge says um i'm holding that involuntary intoxication even if it leads to temporary mental illness still falls under the current utah code meaning the defense would have to show that jc gardner lacked the mental state to commit the crime under the later statute not the pre-83 one so they're fucked essentially is what that does um so this isn't a separate stat there's no separate statute for involuntary intoxication the judge is like i ain't gonna make one so it isn't happening essentially um by the way this judge also was the same judge in the halcyon defense case so i think he doesn't like the publicity he got for that so he's trying to make sure that's my it would be my guess anyway yeah leave me the fuck out of it i'm involved fuck shit so under this basically under utah statute 72 76-2-305 the question isn't could he conform his behavior it's did he know what he was doing and did he know it was wrong okay this is not good um because bought a folding shovel bought rubber gloves took two pairs drove to the apartment came through the window shot her in the chest carried her body out stripped her probably raped her took fucking her stuff dumped it out went back to the house drove he didn't sit in the front lawn covered in blood and go i feel terrible about what i did or place around going what have i done what have i done you had a beer man yeah that's yeah you had a beer to chill yourself out here um every said basically did he know what he was doing it's obvious he knew what he was doing so you're not you can't go on that um by the way 1991 there's a big garden placed in memory of uh of janice by the way um the former director of nursing there was killed and they said the memory of janice will rest peacefully here she is dearly missed so it's a nice garden i believe at the um at the the center there and they said uh that a five hundred dollar nursing scholarship will be given locally in her memory to a student who specializes in gerontology as well so now what is what can jc do here um well he can do what's called a conditional plea conditional plea is when you plead guilty but reserve the right to appeal a specific pre-trial ruling oh so if the appellate court reverses the pre-trial ruling and the supreme court of utah uh says the judge was wrong then the standard for involuntary intoxication is different then the conditional plea can be withdrawn and the case can proceed that way all right so it's not a final final end um it's interesting so january of 1992 jc gardner enters a conditional plea of guilty to first degree felony murder in exchange the state drops the aggravated burglary charge which that's the death penalty aggravator death penalties off the table so the plea is conditioned on gardner's right to appeal the judge's pre-trial ruling on the involuntary intoxication standard okay sentencing comes around you sir may fuck off five years to life in utah state prison which is standard utah sentencing indeterminate sentence you go in front of the pardons and parole board every so often and they decide when you get out but it says quote that he contends he it was wrong for utah legislature to eliminate an irresistible impulse clause from the state's murder statute in 83 and he'll make that argument with the higher court um now this sucks because the fondrens were very happy that he was going through going to prison they didn't give a shit about the death penalty they just didn't want to go through the trial they did not want to see all these pictures of their daughter and you know it's horrible a trial for the victims the whole thing it's fucking terrible you know it's the worst so um he's sentenced he's pled great fuck him this is essentially what they're saying now uh so that's what he's trying to do here um he says i won't rest until i get the involuntary intoxication defense based on the belief that it's our belief that mr gardner was under the influence of prozac which caused those things 1994 remember ilo grunberg yeah our halcyon induced eight shots in our eight shot shooter there she moved to las vegas and on the anniversary of her mother's death she hung herself her mother's death she hung herself her mother's death she hung herself or hang yourself wherever you want to put it yep committed suicide um yep one year or like several years later it's five years later i think wow but on the day six years later on the anniversary of it um the former son-in-law who was also the cop who found the dead mother said money isn't everything because she had millions of dollars he said money isn't everything they could take care of her financially but the guilt even though it was not her fault i think finally just got to her holy yeah she obviously had some mental problems yeah and that results in that so utah supreme court now the defense is arguing that since involuntary intoxication doesn't appear in the statute the statute doesn't contemplate the defense and therefore the court should adopt the standard which is more lenient like we said the utah legislature has not adopted a separate statutory provision dealing with involuntary intoxication um okay so um they also go through all of the and his appeal all of the different cases from michigan indiana and others addressing these questions cites people versus cauley a michigan court of appeals decision involving a defendant who killed someone after taking excessive amounts of halcyon again different case out there the michigan court held the defense of involuntary intoxication as part of the defense of insanity when the chemical effects of the drugs or alcohol rendered the defendant temporarily insane so that's kind of what this judge said before did he know temporarily insane would mean he didn't know the wrongfulness of his actions so they still say he knew the wrongfulness of his actions uh the judgment is affirmed okay okay he's in prison what do you think he's going to do in prison hang himself read the dictionary yeah he does graduate level work in ornithology what's ornithology birds fucking birds he's a he loves animals i believe that's birds yeah uh through a correspondence course with cornell university too good college um it's birds now he had a bachelor's degree in zoology so that makes sense uh that he would do that the cornell lab of ornithology has famous correspondence online course called big called bird biology course which dates back to the 90s he does that and he's an expert on birds now here and earns a master's degree in business information systems from utah state university um which is a master's degree in business information systems from utah state university which is interesting uh participates in naturopathic studies through an academy program gets in zero trouble has zero disciplinary things nothing he just he's the model prisoner when he gets in there okay august of 2000 he goes before the utah state board of pardons he's the least dangerous person on earth right now right now it seems like that right but for christ's sake wouldn't trust his ass still fuck him nope um that was a good one what he did was calculated as fuck so bad so he goes to the utah board of pardons here and they said that you know he's been a model prisoner All this type of shit, you know, he's serving five years to life and he's been doing great. He claimed he's under the influence and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now, at the parole hearing, he said that he did not go through the front door like he had originally said. He actually tells the truth about that because he knows he has to. He says, I came to the back door and as I leaned against it to knock on it, it simply came open, which we know is true. That's not true. Nope. As far as the rest is concerned, about my recollection, that is true. I went through a chemically induced hell at the Utah State Hospital for a year trying to recover memory and treatment, which did not do so. He says he's been on – has not been on any psychiatric medication since he left the hospital in Provo and he's much better now. Gardner said the basic things about what happened at that time are true. There's a lot of other information in there in the report that this is the first time I've ever heard many of those allegations. So the board member of the parole board said it was interesting that Gardner remembered a detail about going into the apartment but doesn't remember much after that. Regarding that, he said, that's the thing that bothers me every day. He's like, me too. I know, right? Unreal. You think you're stumped? I'm the one here. Think about how I feel. You get to have coffee at home every day. I really got egg on my face here. I mean, I'm really – I don't know what happened. I'm in your line about swallows? Swallows? Swallows? Swallows? Swallows? That's the thing that bothers me every day because this is one of the actions. What I did is something for which there's no way to recompense anybody. I can't bring her life back. If I could, I certainly would. He said there's nothing he can do to lessen the pain. He said the fact is it affects them, the Fondren's family, actually far more harshly than it does me. And I realize that. And that is something that is continuing – it's a continuing sorrow for me every day and will be regardless of my situation for the rest of my life. Janice's family, shockingly, they don't want him out. No? She's surprising. Yeah. And I wonder why. I wouldn't either. So they said that Beth, the sister, told the hearing officer, during the past five years, much has happened to the Fondren family, none of which we could share with our sister Janice. Why? Because she's no longer with us on this earth. And why is that? Because J.C. Gardner senselessly took her life in cold blood for no reason. He decided to snuff out her young life. He purposely, maliciously broke into her apartment to kill her. He should spend the rest of his life in prison because my sister is having to live with the sentence J.C. Gardner gave her, death. Okay. Mom, Betty Jo, and the younger brother also testified. They talked about the memorial garden and all that kind of shit. 2017 here. Oh, my. So that goes – he's denied parole there. 2017 comes up. They did say during that that you will be paroled in 2020. That's what we decided from 2000 is we'll probably parole you in 2020. Okay. But you still have to have your meetings every once in a while. 2017, he says in his parole hearing that his memory of that evening is, quote, really sketchy. So they press him and say, why did you go to the house that day with a gun and gloves? And he said, I do not remember making the decision. I did not remember making the decision to bring the gun with me into the house. And they said, what about the gloves? And he said, I can only think that the rubber gloves were a deliberate attempt to obscure my presence while I was there. No shit. Why else would you wear rubber gloves? Unless you're going to go up somebody's asshole, I don't see what you're wearing them for. I just like to wear them because my hands sweat and it feels nice. I was going to break in and do her dishes and they just get – you know what I mean? They get chafey and dry. It's not palm olive. It's not good. He can only – wow. He says, I can only think. Then he says, what I did 27 years ago was a horrendous thing, a tragedy. No way to express his sorrow, the remorse that I feel toward any of those who have been so terribly affected by what happened here. Janice's sister, again, said, I prayed every day that you will not allow him to get out even earlier than originally planned. Now, they also have mental health findings that since he's been in prison, he's been in jail. From prison, they found out. He has borderline personality disorder, which was just recently diagnosed, though, in the last couple of years. Yeah, which could have came on later. Sure. But they said it – maybe not. It's probably a longstanding personality disorder. It's – if you don't know borderline, it's unstable relationships and impulsive behavior, fear of abandonment. Basically, if you're in a relationship with a borderline person and they're trying to start shit and you won't start shit, they will make sure that you will start shit. They'll make sure. They'll fucking punch you in the face if they have to to get a reaction out of you. They need you to fight back. They'll cheat on you and make sure that you find out about it. Because they want drama and chaos. They need it. It's a – not a good person. It's tough – it's nothing against the people, but it's not a good person to be in a relationship with. It's a hard person to be in a relationship with. It's behavior that's not conducive to relationships. Absolutely. They also said he's still blaming Prozac for much of what happened, and the board member says she doesn't like that. She's concerned about Gardner making excuses versus – She's taking responsibility for what happens. She also says she's concerned that the report showed little change in his personality compared to his first evaluation 25 years ago. JC says, look, here's what I'd like you to do. Don't let me out now. Let me – I need three more years. Let me out in 2020 like we planned. I don't even want to get out now. I'm good for a couple more years because I'm just concerned about what's right, obviously. I got work to do in here. I got a lot to do in here. August of 2020, JC is released on parole. Wow. He's let out. Within a month, Janice's mom dies. Oh. Coincidence? Who knows? But she dies. Now, he's paroled, gets a parole officer. He's living in St. George still. What? Yeah, he goes back there. He has nowhere else to go. So the conditions include report regularly, no firearms, obviously, no contact with the victim's family. That should be obvious. Standard shit. Get a job, check in, whatever. He gets a job. In October of 2022 – now, this is two years later – a 54-year-old woman is arrested by St. George police on multiple felony counts of theft, specifically stealing guns and knives. Now, we don't know who she stole them from, but we're not – that's pretty – it doesn't matter. It's academic at this point. It doesn't even matter at all. But she had stolen guns that got recovered, and she got arrested. When the police asked her, what did you do with the rest of the guns you stole that we didn't recover, she said she, quote, sold the guns to J.C. Gardner. Oh, my God. Guess who's not supposed to have guns? That's right. So that's interesting. She could have said anything. I sold them to some – I don't know who the hell he was. She said J.C. Gardner. So they're going to go talk to him. Did you buy guns from this woman? He said, of course not. I didn't buy anything from her. That's crazy. And then he says that he – then he goes, she did ask me to store the guns at my residence for just a couple days, and then they got moved right out of my house, though. He said, I never purchased them. I was just holding them for – I mean, if someone said, hey, hold this for a second, you wouldn't make sure you were allowed to first. You just hold it. That's what people do. It's easy. Here, hold my sandwich. You go, sure. So does he still have them? Well, then they do. They find phones. They find phone records, because now it's 2020-fucking-2. So they find this. They go through his messages, and on his parole, they don't even need a warrant. They can just look at his phone if they feel like it. The messages on his phone show him sending the woman messages inquiring about purchasing guns, making offers, negotiating prices. Would he do this on fucking Facebook Marketplace or something? Texting her back and forth or social media or whatever, maybe Facebook Marketplace. So, yeah, he sent all these texts. So he gets charged in the same court that handled his murder with four counts of being a restricted person in possession of a weapon. Idiot. Then they search his home and find a 9-millimeter handgun. His favorite. His favorite. Same caliber. Interesting. There, they have – he has a – it's a cheap one. A – what is it? SCCY? Sky? That's how you pronounce it apparently. I guess it's about a $200 subcompact 9-millimeter small. Shitty, cheap street gun basically. He has thousands of bullets. He's not allowed to have any bullets. Thousands of different calibers, three different calibers. Then through more investigation and text messages and everything, they find that he previously possessed other firearms including an AR-15. Nice. Murder, parole. You can't have none of this. So the thing is the 9-millimeter is from Florida. It's manufactured and sold in Florida. Somebody had brought it into Utah from out of state, which means the federal government is now involved in this investigation. So they – this – the law requires that the firearm have at some point moved in interstate commerce. The minimum nexus is nothing basically. Every firearm in America is made in one state and sold in another. So it's just basically if it's illegal. Yeah. So the U.S. District Attorney's Office of Utah picks it up. 2023, he pleads guilty to one count of felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. You, sir, may fuck off 102 months in federal prison. Eight and a half years. Almost 10 years, yeah, yeah. Plus three years of supervised release after that. How old is he now? Well, when he gets out, he'll be, he's 65 when they sentence him there. So he's going to be like 74 years old, 73 years old when he gets out, which is rough. God damn. So we don't know. Now, the Prozac question keeps going on, too, basically. In 2004, here, the FDA issued a warning on Prozac and all SSRIs for increased suicidal ideations in young adults and adolescents. In 2007, it expanded the warning, but, you know, we all know what it does. It's fine. It's the reason I don't take those things. It's tough. I mean, Janice is buried at the Berkeley Memorial Gardens in Moncks Corn. Berkeley County, South Carolina. So they did bring her home anyway. That's nice. The family at least was able to bring their daughter home to be buried at home and not have to go to fucking Utah to visit her corpse. So there you go, everybody. St. George, Utah. And this is just, this was a wild kind of famous precedent-setting case. So we kind of had to do this case. It's a real weird case and just a weird, this guy is just a, I mean, think about what he is. He's a stalker. Yeah. And I think that's who he is. I mean, you know, Prozac doesn't make you a stalker. Yeah. He doesn't. But when you're 30, that's, there's a lot of different things that go into the psychology of a 30-year-old man that feels inferior. Absolutely. You're not ready for the world if you haven't been through some things by then. If I could just hurt this lady who's in my way, then everything would be fine. Because she was sending me love letters before and now this Janice is in her ear. Like, give me a break, dude. Grow up. So anyway, there you go. There is Utah. Hope you enjoyed that. If you did, get on whatever app you're listening on. Give us five stars. It helps a ton. Give us a thumbs up on Netflix. Also helps a ton. Sure. Helps drive the show up rankings and do all that fun shit. So keep doing that. Follow on social media at Small Town Murder on Instagram, at Small Town Pod on Facebook. For sure, do that. Definitely head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. Right. Oh, boy. Get there for tickets for live shows. September 18th, Pabst Theater, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Those are almost gone. So get those now. Now, September 19th, State Theater, Minneapolis. Let's go, Minneapolis. It's going to be good. We can't wait. We love Minneapolis. So get in there, especially in a nice time of year when it's not four degrees outside. It's going to be awesome. Do not let Milwaukee punk you. Get in there and get those tickets right now. So do that. Then listen to Crime and Sports, one of our shows where we're doing a show about the Yahweh Ben Yahweh cult right now because there was a professional football player who murdered a bunch of people for him, Robert Rozier. So we're doing that. Not a multi-parter. Check that out. Also, Your Stupid Opinions, which is just hilarious. Our faces hurt from making it because it's funny. So you should like it. Then get yourself Patreon. Oh, boy. Patreon.com slash Crime in Sports is where you get all the bonus material. Anybody, $5 a month or above. You get everything we put out. I'm talking as soon as you subscribe, you get hundreds of back bonus episodes you've never heard before. You get them all, everybody. That's right. This week, what you're going to get for Crime in Sports, we're going to do Theme Park Disasters. It's back again because we keep getting popular demand on this. Hey, where is that? It's been a few months. What's up with Theme Park Disasters? People are losing legs still. Oh, they're all over the place. Then for Small Town Murder, listener's choice, everybody. Your choice. Either The Crash and the story surrounding The Crash documentary, the McKenzie-Sherilla car accident, not accident, murder with the car, or Corey Richen's Part 3, which is so much more informative. She's a bigger liar than we thought. It's amazing. Her kids' statements come in now, which contradicts everything she said. You get to see exactly what a more calculated lunatic she is. It's insane stuff. You get to hear about the sentencing. One or the other, it's on Patreon, the poll. Vote now. You get not only that, all the shows we put out. Crime in Sports, Your Stupid Opinion, Small Town Murder. Add free with your Patreon. Add free. On top of that, you get a shout out. Which happens right goddamn now. Jimmy, hit me with the names of the best goddamn people in the world who would never, ever, ever murder us just for being nice people and then blame it on something innocuous. Jimmy, hit me with them right fucking now. Firstly, thanks to everybody that came out to Boston, or Detroit and Buffalo, especially Emily, who makes those. She refurbishes the ponies. Yes. Oh, she's great with all my little ponies. We had such a nice time talking to her and her wonderful dad outside, too. Sweet people. Wasn't bothering us at all. We were very happy. We were very curious about that pony. She can talk to us about those ponies all day long and we'll listen. She's a good kid. Thank you. Executive producers this week are Penny Boyce, Tracy Poetz, maybe Poetz. I don't know. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Elena Zemel. Elena Zemel. She's terrific. She was in Buffalo, I believe. Liz Vasquez. Who is? Lisa Michalski. Ashley Williams. Happy birthday, Ashley. Happy birthday. Lisa Wharton. Oh, yeah. Gary Howard is in Kenwood, Michigan. Gary. You missed that show. You missed that show, but he's up there. Damn, Gary. That's too bad. Sorry we missed you, buddy. Happy hours in Nogadoches, Texas. Oh, boy. I don't think that's home. I think he's on the road. That's tough. Yeah. Other producers this week. Matt Studer. He found $5 at a taco stand. Didn't know who to give it to, so he gave it to us. Well, thank you very much. We'll take your taco money. We appreciate that. Peyton Meadows. Scott Richard, or maybe Richard. Dina Snyder. Life with an Autistic Child. Janice Hill. Dubrovsko. What is this? Dubrovsko. Oh, Dubrovsko and Stephanie. The real estate broker. Thank you so much, you guys. You're the best. Thank you. Parker Adelson. Hannah Hockenberry. Vanessa Boondell. Boondell, probably? Boondell. Boondell. Crystal Shamsie. Norma with no last name. James Barnhart. Crystal with no last name. Catherine Ballard, or Bullard. Ballard. Ballard. Ari Nash. Ari? I think it's Ari. I don't know. PJ Hatmaker. Elena Sergi. Michael Elliott. What is this? Haley Grace. Glace. What? Glace, perhaps. Haley Lemonade. Lemonade. Oh. Lemonade. Lemonade. Brandon with no last name. Brandon. Wendy Brown. Judith Voigt. Eric Shalito. Scott Gamester. Gamester. Tammy Cunningham. Richie's sister. Tony D'Elia. The lost sister. D'Elia. Justin with no last name. Reagan Baumgartle. Wow. Brett Carone. Jennifer Heights. Brian Winch. Michelle Hurd. Chris Butler. Jenna Ryan. Cheryl Lucas. Tyler Smith. Diet Punk. Cynthia Meinhold. Meinhold. Meinhold. Sarah Beth. Robin Norton. Chris Kaufman. Leo F. Jonathan Peterhans. Wow. He has been just demolished. His whole childhood, right? Gym class was rough on him in seventh grade. Peterhans? No. That's a tough one. That's a tough one. Can't be that. John. You'd have had to drop out of school if you went to New York. They would have been relentless. It would have been tough. I'm sorry, sir. He might have a GED. We don't know. You don't know. I wouldn't. I would. Run. Run from school. It's worth it. Jeremy Springer. Jerry's kid. Heather Fitzpatrick. Ellen Hilbolt. Alexis Sarber. Kinsey with no last name. Sonia with no last name. Sonja, perhaps. Paula Dawn Stevens. Julie Strand. Valerie Harden. Stephen Kay. Sarah Leahy. Dave Seagraves. Brian Lurett. Lurett. Lurett. Lurett. Brian, it's never going to happen. Lurett. We're trying our best here, Brian. Maureen Donovan. Courtney Andrade. Jess Rice. Adriana Siskey. Alessandra. Alessandra. Alessandra Grant. Will with no last name. Melissa Taylor. Nick Arduini. Vanessa Evans. Lindsay Craig. Court. What is it? Courtney. It's Courtney. God damn it, Courtney. Court-tick-knee. Don't do this to me. Randy Miller. Dave and Amanda Yarlow. Yarlow. Jessica Dillon. Peggy Perkins. Allison with no last name. Me. Kim Ashdown. Riley B. The lead dispensary. Or the lead dispensary. Jody Showmaker. It's not Shoemaker. It's Showmaker. Maureen Medeiros. That's Espanol. Shamil. Camille, maybe. Loja. Camille with Z-H. That's not right. That's Shamil, right? I mean, you can spell it any way you want. Like the. Shamil. What's the dress shit? Is that Shamil? Oh, Chiffon. Oh. Chiffon is C-H. Isn't it? I don't fucking know. I'm making shit up now. Haley McCoola. Sammy Navar. Nava, perhaps. Ava Mangiello. Manginello. What is that? There you go. Close enough. Rose Conklin. Clayton Lovelady. Chris with no last name. Dan Copps. Becca with no last name. Jerrica Perkins. Go 24, KKR. Nikos Lynch. Jennifer Smith. Jenna Plating. Paige Harmon. Chase Mazur. Ray Mazur, probably. Rich Adamek. Adamek. Adamek. Shane and Ibby. Glenn S. Keith. Keith Bassett? I don't know. That's not. Is that Keith with an A? Keith. Keith. No, no, Kate. Keith? Keith Caith? You can't put an A in Keith. Tay with no last name. Kyle Fell. Tell, maybe. Jake Winkler. Crystal Brooks. Nick Belgiorno. R with no last name. Just the letter R. Alex Schumacher. Ron Barnes. Michael Mouse. Mouse. Courtney Happner. Andrea Rafe Snyder. Belinda with an I. Elijah. Alicia Ludwig. That is Jeremy A. Laura Bennett. Heather Koston. Lana Dovin. Devon Dovin. Dovin. I'm in. Cowboys Fandow. Fandow? Do you mean Fandum? That's a W, not an M. I didn't mistype that. Bradley Burns. I made this for you. That's a person. Megan with no last name. Catherine Fiafilla. Feliato. That's a tough last name to have. April Park. Maxwell Bernard. J. Just the letter J. Zach Chelsea. Katie Purnell. Tim Papp. Andrew Neal. New Schaefer. Mark Holmes. Mark. Mike Erickson. Matt Maline. Cherie. Cherisse. It's Cherie. Denny. Right? Carrie Kovach. I'll talk my name out of anything. Talk myself. All right. Lee Kleinert. Amy B. Diggy McPitts and all of our patrons. You guys are the best. Thank you. Thank you so much, everybody, from the bottom of our hearts for all that you do for us and for hanging out with us for just everything. Thanks for coming to live shows. Thanks for doing everything that you do for us and with us. We damn well appreciate it. So keep hanging out with us. Keep following. Come to live shows. And if you want to follow us on social media or get any information about anything we're doing, shut up and give me murder.com is where to do that. It's all redesigned brand new. So check that out. Keep coming back and seeing us. And until next week, everybody, it's been our pleasure. Bye. Bye.