Media Day Headlines, X Factor Players, All-Stars, and More!

>> Coming up on the Zach Lo Show, it's media day across the NBA, which is generally not that interesting to me. But more to kill and I found some fun tidbits to talk about from Kauai being back in Toronto and kind of just yada yadaing a whole damn thing in Los Angeles. On the next media day as defending champions, Nicola Yokic committing to Denver, really kind of blah media day and Golden State with some bad news about Christophe Sporzingas after the good news of the Steph Curry extension, Yannis versus iguanas, much more. And then the real media of the podcast, Mo and I pick each pick three under the radar ex-factors for the season. They were supposed to be players, mo cheated, and picked a coach to find. I respect cheating. I picked a duo as one of my three players. So that is in the can and then we also pick our, we go through the landscape for who's going to make their first all-star team. If anyone could be no one but we both make picks for that. And then Keith O'Brien is here. He's the author of a book called Heartland about Larry Bird and the Indiana State's Sycamores is awesome. I loved it. I enjoyed it so much more than I even thought it would. Then I thought I would and he's here to talk about that book and his process of Larry Bird and all that. It's a fun show. That's all coming up on the Zack Lo Show. Welcome to the Zack Lo Show. It's more to kill and we may not see you for a little while more because you've got some exciting news that can happen at any minute. If this podcast ends abruptly, it's because Mo had to flee for the best possible reason. What is the reason Mo? Expecting my first child, my wife is pregnant and we are literally up on the deep brain. Very pregnant, very pregnant and in the, it's going to happen sometime soon in the very foreseeable future. Well, hopefully we're not at during this podcast. So let's get going. We're going to discuss a lot of things today. Let's do a media day roundup, media day weekend news roundup. Are you ready Mo? Let's go. Item number one, Stefan Curry signed a two year, $116 million extension over the weekend with the Golden State Warriors, $20 million, south of what he could have gotten total. So about 10 million per year, could be very important in the Warriors, potentially, potentially opening up Max Cap space, depending on a whole bunch of things like does Jimmy Butler want to be on the team a year from now? Do they want him? Is Dremon Green going to be on the Warriors? And he'd take the room exceptions so that they can really maximize the room. Is Brandon Pajewski coming back? I would bet on him coming back on an extension. We'll see. What about Christophe Porzingas with a $20 million player option next season that is sneakily only $3 million guaranteed. The Warriors could have Max Caproom. They could have not much Caproom at all. They could use their cap flexibility to make a lopsided trade where they take in more salary and use the picks they have. I frankly think that seems to be the more likely outcome, particularly considering Nicola Yokech's comments today, which we will get to. But the Steph extension, plus the Porzingus news today, which is that Christophe Porzingus will miss in a definite period of time with the health issue. And that's all we really know right now. It's an interesting sort of double piece of news for the Warriors. Look, the Porzingus thing, we don't know, right? We're recording this. All we know is it's a health issue. They're not saying anything more, obviously we hope it's nothing serious. As a basketball issue, Mo, it is just the latest blow to the Warriors team that I was already low on to the point that when I did one big question for every Western conference team with Rob Ahoney last week, my question was, is there a magical 60 game Porzingus season left in his career? And if so, is it this one because that's the only way I could see the Warriors with Butler out for a while, aging roster, it's Moses moody out, et cetera, et cetera. That's the only way I could see them really treading water in a serious way. And now that may be off the table. I mean, this is a, did the idea of the spacing five unlocking everything, yeah, they still have Harvard, Harvard's 40 years old. Obviously, reaction number one is knock on wood, Porzingus is okay. reaction number two is, man, I was already low on the Warriors, Mo. I think there's a clear top six in the West, you know, San Antonio Oklahoma City, Minnesota, Lakers, Rockets, Nuggets, depending on whatever order. I think after that, I definitely would put Portland Phoenix and Utah above the Warriors. That's nine teams already. So I guess I'm looking at this and like, I think there's a world where they just missed the play and completely in our 11th or worse in the West. Yeah, I mean, I think you just look at how good the West is underneath them and these other teams that are going to start kind of climbing up, you know, we listen, Memphis is going to be better. I don't know if they're going to be playing better, but they're going to be better. Dallas is going to be better like all these teams that are behind them where I think there's a legitimate chance. And if Curry misses like any extended period of time in knock on wood, we don't want that, but if that's the kind of thing that happens, I mean, they're toast, you know, if he misses a stretch of 15 games, like, I don't know what they look like. I don't know what, I don't know if they're watchable at that point, you know. And I know we're excited with, you know, the rookie and everybody that's coming in and you're having everything, you know, it's all Steph. It's all revolved around Steph at this point. And we never got to see the five out dream really with with Porzingus, you know, because like he said, they have Hartford, but even he's playing limited number of games, limited numbers of minutes, it's, it's not something that we've sort of got to see and explore. I don't know there's a way you could feel comfortable or confident in this Warriors team going into this season and think, I mean, at best, they're playing team to me. Oh, there's no, I mean, there's no question about that. I mean, I think I said this last week with Money, I'm higher on Memphis than, than consensus. It's hard to really believe in the Pelicans, but like so, so right now this is as of this morning. So maybe it went down. Warriors over under was 38 and a half on Fandall. I was actually ahead of Utah's at 37 and a half. I would have taken Utah over Golden State before this, before this, before this Porzingus thing. Phoenix 39 and a half, Portland 41 and a half. Portland's got, it's a little bullish on Portland to me with all the questions they have in the Morant Fit, but whatever. And then it goes all the way down to Dallas 33 and a half, Memphis 29 and a half, Clippers clipping around at 29 and a half. And I just, and New Orleans at 28 and a half. I think one of New Orleans and Memphis is going to, is going to exceed that win total and maybe by a decent, decent margin. And that's the team that, to me, if I'm the Warriors, I'm looking down at and being like, oh, oh, and also, or, or do you go the other way and be like, yeah, you know what, if we, we have to pick in the lottery in the new randomized lottery and we have a, we're a three ball team, you know, that's, that's not bad for us either. Yeah, I mean, it's going to get it, it's going to get really fascinating for them in terms of how they handle the season, but like, this is a problem and we've kind of seen this coming, right? Like, this has sort of been the slow crawl that's been, you know, coming to an end. It's great. That stuff took less money on the extension. We'll see what Raymond does as you said. We know that poor Zingas is deals only three million guaranteed for next season with the player on the player option. You know, there's opportunities there for them to build, but none of that will help really that much this season. And you can talk, yeah, you can talk me into like, Oh, Deanty and Melon's back great. Pajemsky is a good player. I like Landaburg. They have Gi Santo showed real flashes last year. Georgian Yang is here, you know, can they cobbled together some backup five out of those kinds of guys in place, super small, Charles bat, whatever, like, it's just talent-wise because it's just not there with the rest of the West's greatest stuff is he missed a bunch of games last year with runners knee. He's 30 what, 36, 37 years old, whatever he is, like, you can't count on him to be healthy for 80 games, 75 games. And the games he and Butler are both out are going to be extremely difficult for Golden State to manufacture enough points to win. I just, the poor Zingas thing is such a bummer. It's been a bummer for a long time now. That's the story of his career, the guy is a Hall of Fame talent who is just not his body in myriad different ways has not held up. And so there we are. I mentioned Yokech, immediate day headline number two is Yokech saying flat out, let me bring up Adam Morris's Twitter or I had it up and notes gone. Basically saying, I'm not leaving the nuggets, I'm going to resign if they will have me back next year. I mean, look, I've been saying all along and I've been saying this to people in the leave. He's asking me about Yokech and whether he's going to leave. He's like eyes that I take him at his word. He says that. I believe that he means it. And he says, he says, this is the tweet. Yokech said very definitively, I'm going to sign next year if they want me. Okay, then he's a nugget and we can put this all to bed. >> Yeah, we don't need to do a whole season of, every city he goes to, what do you think of us? And we don't need that. It's over and done with, I think it was kind of with you in the beginning of the summer when he said, no, I'm going to resign. I'm coming back and all that and nothing about Yokech makes me feel like he's flighty in any way. So can we preemptively just not do the thing where in two years there's a segment of the media that's like, this guy is content with losing. Why doesn't he ask out and go to this other place and just be like, he's fine. He won a championship, he likes Denver, it's cool he's going to be in Denver. >> Just need something to do in August. sometimes. We do. Um, uh, as for the nuggets this season, we'll see, I'm not, I'm optimistic about them winning a lot of games as long as Nicolio could just healthy because that's just what they do. I am not optimistic about them competing for three rounds in the Western conference playoffs given that Aaron Gordon seemingly cannot last one round in the playoffs. Despite trying his damnedest and tough being as tough as they come. Remember that game seven and Oklahoma City played on one leg and played pretty well. Um, but, you know, you can't ever totally slam the door on them as long as you'll get you's there, but, um, I don't know where you will are in the nuggets. I think they're like really solidly in the three to six range, probably on the high end for me. But I, the idea that they could win three playoffs series as presently constructed. And maybe they are, they got this pick from the calves in the Payton Watson tree, but I don't, I don't see, they will not be my pick to make the finals. Let's put it that way. The losing Payton Watson was a big blow for me in my book in the where I stood with them as actual contenders. I think, yes, they're going to win a lot of regular season games, assuming good health. And as you said, currently constructed and they don't make a major trade, I think we're going to have a better camp Johnson year. They really need Christian Brown to kind of have a massive bounce back and find his shot again and be able to kind of get going. But I, I just worry so much about this team defensively. And yeah, at the end of the day, how much can you really depend on Aaron Gordon hamstrings at this point, really lasting long stretches? It's, it's brutal. And that really kills them defensively even more. So I'll be curious to see how it plays out. You've been on top of this where you've been talking about with, I like the de Rosen signing. So that that's less Murray and Yoke, it's being split up into Rosen kind of coming and may, I mean, it's a great concept in that way. If let him man the second unit, so Murray can get more rest with Yoke, and you can maximize their minutes together. That's gonna be important. But at the end of the day, I just, their defense is something I'm really going to be keeping an eye on. I mean, again, conceptually, that's interesting. Try keep bringing it up. I also think that's a regular. If like that can't work in the playoffs. Yeah. The backup, the opposing lineups in the playoffs when rotations are going to be sure are too good for that. But maybe in the regular season, they started to get through the season. Media day item number three, Kawaii Leonard was reintroduced in Toronto and boy, did he look chipper mo and the very first thing he did was say, I know you guys want to ask him about the clippers and aspiration and all the extra money I appear to have pocketed. I've been advised by the league and the players association that we should just move forward, talk about the raptors, how excited I am to be at the raptors. And, you know, that's it. So let's talk about basketball. And there were basically, I'm not sure if there were any follow-up questions about it. I certainly didn't watch the whole media availability. I haven't seen any quotes other than that. And that is a tough environment to press somebody on something like that. But that better not be the last time the Toronto media asked him about it. And hell, I'll do it when I go to Toronto for the holidays. If nobody's done it by then, it was, it's so chicken shit of him to preemptively be like, I'm not answering questions about the other thing where the other franchise that I chose is like ruined for a long time now. I paid 700 about $1,000. That's not nothing. Like people are papering over it. That's it's almost a million dollars. So it's a big fine that he paid. Obviously, he allegedly pocketed a lot more than that. But this idea that just because he says so that it's time to move on that we shouldn't ask any follow-up questions about it. No one, that he should not have to have a little bit more of a like look at, look at people and say I, the idea that he knew nothing and it was all the rogue uncle. Like, I'm sure Dennis was doing stuff he didn't know about. But like, it's obviously nonsense. Clearly, he knew something. He still won't answer for it. And I think at some point, like, it's fair to be like, Hey, how much money did you make? Why did you do this? What do you, what were you aware of? What were you not aware of? I just thought just laughing and transitioning from that to like, Hey, you guys remember when I laughed? And it was very funny. Want to talk about that again? I can laugh again if you want. Let's talk about that. I know who's not laughing or the clipper fans who I actually, you know, have endured now this massive pain where not only does he basically kind of dime out the clippers in this investigation and to basically, he turns on them to get a lesser penalty. But on top of that, then go sign $115 million contract, you know, extension on top of that. Like, then you're kind of looking at it and then it's just go on and laughing. Like, that's just really kind of, you know, really sort of just fit in the face of the clipper fans that really did rock with him and support him from the moment he got here. And I think that's really something we're pretty frustrating. And I'm with you. I hope he gets he needs to get those questions all the time. And when he comes to LA, if he does decide to come and doesn't take that game off when he comes to play the clippers, like, I, I hope he gets bombarded with those questions of like any remorse. Okay. So, so that game, I haven't looked at the schedule see what that game is. All the jokes have already been made about video tributes and whether there should be a video tribute bill, joked about the video tributes, you just be images of quiet and street clothes on the bench and like forestry shots and stuff like that. I mean, all joking aside, the threshold for getting a video tribute is so low that I, I'll bet Dave will for sure have meetings about like, I don't know, like, this guy we've got, we like helped us make the conference finals like he's got some buzzer shots. It was a huge deal when he came here. Clippers do not even think about it. No video tributes, no pomp and circumstance. The PA announcer just introduces him like any other player at small forward number two, Kauai Liner and move on. Nothing. The more interesting thing, by the way, because it was Toronto, they asked him today about his decision to leave in 2019 and free agency. And if he ever looks back on that, now I'm quoting Michael Grange, quotes Kauai, saying Michael Grange of the legend to Toronto media, I don't go back and think about it much. I made the decision to go back to LA based on family. I had older people I was able to see who have passed had seen babies being born, all those times I cherish. And he went on to talk about how family was the reason he went and that's it. This to me goes back to the question that no one has really given me an answer for is like, where else was he signing? Because I don't think he wanted to go to the Lakers with LeBron. He's indicating that he was going to LA come hell or high water. Why did the Clippers like continually go out of their way to do all this stuff that they're getting docked draft picks for now? Like what was the threat of him not going there or leaving to go elsewhere? I haven't found a credible one yet. Obviously he could go wherever he wants. He's a max player. He's a superstar. If the minute he decides he wants to leave, teams would be after him and obviously he's he's been traded now. But I just thought that was that was interesting. Yeah, it just never felt like even I remember in 2019, it just never felt like he was going to sign with the Lakers. And it never felt like he wanted to actually be in Toronto. Even the during the season when he won the championship, it never felt like he wanted to be part of that organization long term. It was always felt like he was coming well, even when the trip before he got traded to Toronto, he wanted to come back to the West Coast. He wanted to be on the West Coast that whole time. So it just felt like it was kind of ass and iron for the Clippers to have sort of just not called his bluff. But I also think that just showed you how desperate the organization was at the time to make a splash. And we're so afraid of the Lakers signing him. That's all right. It's it's fear and desperation. It's the idea that if he doesn't come here after we've been tracking him around like a jilted girlfriend stalking somebody or a jilted boyfriend stalking somebody Lawrence Frank just appearing out of nowhere in every Raptor's game. And if he leaves after he comes here, it's too embarrassing for us as an already embarrassing franchise to take. And I just have never been given a credible, you know, alternative media day item number four. Lebron James is a Philadelphia 76er wearing the Jersey speaking at media today and said an instantly iconic quote. I didn't leave my family to lose in the second round, which just feels like he's very knowledgeable about how far Juel and beat and the Sixers have gotten in the playoffs during the entire Juel and beat Ira. I just sort of was cool quote. I have no notes on that. And he did confirm through Dave McMendamins exclusive reporting at ESPN what Rich Paul had said on the game over podcast hashtag Spotify ringer that had the nicks not won the championship. He likely would be a New York Nick, but he decided that would not be a great look and also like why rock the boat. I don't know cool alternative reality that Jalen Brunson SNL star has driven into the ground. Yeah. And I think that's just the fun sort of little like caveat of, you know, it'll be a fun what if if the next didn't win the championship, what would have looked like would Lebron go in there or be fun to kind of have that he's going to be living in, you know, New York part time during this. I was in the the story from Dave McMendamins, you know, as well as having a place in Philly. So he's going to split his time there. Let's see how that kind of works out. I'm excited about the Sixers teams just because there's so many different teams within one. I'm so curious about this plot. How could how could you not be and it also recalls the sliding doors moment of game seven Oklahoma City Golden State 2016 game seven Cleveland Golden State 2016 and the Durant like decision to go to the Warriors who had lost the finals. And I don't think he ever would go there had they won the finals. But be that as it may media day item number whatever you pointed this out to me. Yanis has a rivalry with iguanas in Miami and has come out with a very hot take that iguanas are not cute. They're scary. I guess iguanas are appearing at his apartment. You sent me a video of an iguana. I don't know if that specific iguana has approached Yanis's apartment. I'll say this, Moe. And you know what? The iguana defense fund can come at me. Come at me. Yanis is right. iguanas are not cute. They are scary. And I would like them to get the hell away from me. I don't want an iguana approaching me. They're not cute. Does anyone think they're cute? The people have, what's that show that Seth Rogan is in? There's like a pet live giant lizard involved? Those things are scary. And they might eat me. I don't know what they do. I don't want them around. I'm not saying he should commit violence against any intruding iguana. I'm just saying he's right. They're not cute. The only thing I really know about iguanas is that in the winter time in Miami, they freeze and just like sort of fall off trees and stuff like that. And everybody assumes they're dead. But then once they thought they continue on running around. There's some iguanas, they're like boy, why is that so real thing? From my understanding, I could be totally wrong. I'm not saying checking that. That's too good to be factored. I don't know my thoughts. I don't know. Number six, GQ, because when an athlete wants to talk, honestly, about basketball, why not go to GQ has a story about Steph Castle and Dylan Harper is the back court of the present and future in San Antonio. And in it mode to kill is an interesting little exchange. We're Dylan Harper says, I'm going to win six man of the year. You're not going to be six man, Castle said. Who are you going to be six man for? I don't fucking know. God's Harper answers. Don't really get that. Does God need a six man? Are there five guys? I don't understand. And then Castle says, you don't actually think you're coming off the bench, right? What's the political answer here? Harper says, looking down at my recorder, again, according to the reporter, Cam Wolf. He calibrates his voice into its curious pitch. I'm going to do whatever the team needs me to do, man. If that's come off the bench, he stops. Harper stops. That's crazy. Fuck no. I ain't coming off no bench. Oh, all right. Okay. And then Mitch Johnson is then asked about this. The head coach of Spurs said, I don't envision anybody being in this starting lineup before adding Dylan and Stefan have very big roles. That is the door is officially open to Deer and Fox coming off the bench at some point. I've been assuming all along that he will continue to start. He is a low turnover, sort of low risk bell weather for the Spurs offense, a stabilizer. But Mitch Johnson had the opportunity to definitively say that. Maybe he'll say that media day today while we're recording this, he did not choose to say it there. There's the idea that perhaps the three guards could play together more than they did in the regular season, which was not very much per minute. They used that line up a little bit more in the playoffs than in the regular season because Harper was just too good. But it was not a big part of their toolbox. And yet, I think they're going to play Carter Bryant more. They added to buy his Harris alongside Harrison Bards and called to Johnson. It's not that easy to just get to those three guys together for eight minutes of game. I forget what Harper, I get like I guess he just I just felt like saying that. And then Mitch Johnson given the opportunity to like walk it back forward Dylan Harper does not do it. Look, Fox had a bad playoffs and a bad finals. He was injured. He had the all time like mental block on the layup attempt against Anonobi that he should not have taken in game four. We need to end Anobi's tip and all that. I said after that series, I think he needs a year to rehab his trade value. But I do think if the spurs got a better than neutral offer for him right now, they would have to at least hold a long meeting and consider it because the contract is just really prohibitive and you do risks just having it be stuck on your books. That that this stuff is like a red alarm to me at least not like available now. I don't think they want to make them available. They want to see what this team looks like, but it's interesting. Well, it's interesting. Well, I mean, there was like hints of this stuff during the finals, right? Like after the after they lost the championship, I think it was Julian champ any mentioning it in his press conference of them having these conversations with Harper through the course of the year. There's it's kind of been floating around. And I think part of it is it's sort of a good problem for the spurs in the sense of Dylan Harper was further far advanced than anybody expected when he came in. And I think that sort of caught everybody off guard and it has put the situation where all right, you're going to have Fox for two to three years. And then one Harper's ready will hand it over to him. Well, he seems certainly ready now, especially by his performance at the final. So, you know, it's going to be really curious for how the spurs juggled their rotations. And how did they figure that stuff out? And like, when we watch this stuff, like, the most important thing for me is when Fox wasn't playing in the games, the spurs were a turnover machine. Like when he missed those game, when he was out those games with the the sprained ankle in Minnesota and Castle had 20 turnovers, I think, over two games. It's a brutal number. And it's that's he still has value for this team. So unless they found a way to fix that, like, it's going to be hard for the spurs and just be like, you know, we're not going to play Fox big minutes and we're going to give all most of his minutes star, or it's going to be hard if it's still a problem of like, we can't keep the ball on our hands. Well, and then another guard has to set up and maybe play more minutes. And who is that guard that has a handle on their team? You know, Jordan McLaughlin is going to play more. Okay, fine. That's the dilemma, right? Like, the spurs very clearly can win the championship right now, as is with the air and foxes, their starting point guard. I might actually pick them to win the championship. I haven't decided yet. And imagine that they decide, let's just get off the air and fox, Dylan Harper is ready. We'll trade him for two expiring contracts attached to players that like don't really help us now. And a couple of draft assets just to have, well, then you've downgraded your championship hopes for this season and probably upgraded your championship hopes for the next four seasons. Is that worth it? How close do you think you are right now? It's a very tough dilemma. And of course, they couldn't find a different kind of trade where they get a helpful player who replicates some of what Deer and Fox does, but you mentioned the turnovers. I think you'll have a better jump shooting season this year than you had last year, but we shall see. Okay, last media day item. Jalen Duren, as expected, did not show up at Piston's media day. Mark Stein reported he's actually not allowed to as long as he's not signed a deal. Coming across the proverbial wire just five minutes ago, Trayjan Langdon made a statement where he said, basically, I expect Jalen Duren to be on the team where I'm going to be thrilled with his contributions. He has until Thursday mode to decide whether to sign his nine million dollar qualifying offer and become an unrestricted free agent after this coming season, which would be kind of a disaster for the Pistons or sign something like a five year 200 million dollar deal to remain a piston or the Pistons could try to open up sign and trade talks if they really believe he's going to sign the qualifying offer and execute that before that. I mentioned last week that base your compensation rules really complicate that. I should also say there's the possibility of him holding out into camp even into the season. Tristan Thompson did this many years ago with the calves and people have asked me, well, what if he sits out the whole year? If he sits out the whole year, he's a restricted free agent again, so like that doesn't really help you. I don't know, man, tick tick tick, I've been assuming all along, cooler heads prevail. $200 million is a lot of money. I think he should take it. If I were advising him, I'd advise him to take it. I think it's a fair offer. If I'm Detroit, do I up it like a million more a year if it gets it done? Probably at this point, I would just to do it. But we shall see every day that ticks away the potential for something crazier happens. Yeah, and I think the hardest thing is just looking at it from Durham's side or looking at it if I was advising Durham's camp, there are way too many stories of guys who have taken the qualifying offer and it not worked out for them afterwards. That next contract wasn't as big. You're looking at $200 million sitting on the table right now. That's really hard to turn that down and you have to be absolutely sure that hey, I'm getting that $200 million back in free agency next season and that's going to be there. If you take the qualifying offer, how do you walk into the locker room after that and how does that affect the locker room chemistry? What happens if you have an average year? Not a down, you're just an average year. I think it's really going to be a situation where you have to. You're putting a lot of pressure on yourself. You're betting on yourself. We know all the cliches that come with that. But it's a huge risk. It's $9 million versus, I don't know, the math off the top of my head, like 40 million a year. If you assume a max is waiting for you. How would you know that? I don't know. If you assume a max is waiting for you, by the way, what if you suffer again from a massive slump where you look adult and out of sorts in the playoffs? Is that max still going to be there? If the max is there, a four-year max from another team next off season, that plus the qualifying offer is equal to more or less over five years. The same amount of money that the pistons are offering now. There's not a big financial upside. It's just if the relationship is that broken, we shall see. We'll all learn in three days. All right, let's take quick break and then we're going to go around the league with some seasoned preview content with the great mode to kill. This episode is brought to you by Lincoln. What if your vehicle could help give you a reset? Lincoln Rejuvenate is designed to do just that. This multi-sensory feature combines expansive visuals, digital sense and a seat massage for the driver and is available in the 2027 Navigator SUV. Visit Lincoln.com to learn more. Lincoln Rejuvenate does not operate in listed vehicles in park when the vehicles off or if any doors open. Do not use the feature in a closed garage or in any other enclosed areas. See owner's manual for important operating instructions. All right, Mo, you came up with this idea and we were batting around fun segments. So let's pick some under the radar X factor kind of players for the season. I define under the radar as pretty damn under the radar and I said, let's focus on the contenders so that we're talking kind of chalk guys who could really swing the championship back with the picture. We each picked three. Actually, pick cheated and picked four because one of mine is like almost a tandem. I'm going to bet we didn't tell each other who we picked. I'm going to bet we at least have one in common. Let's rapid fire go through our picks. Who is your first, whatever you want to call it, X factor impact guy? Matisse Tybal. All right, we're old for one, but I like the pick and you is on my long list. Yeah, so do you want me to go there? You want my whole list? No, let's go in and let's dig into Matisse Tybal for 90 seconds. I think it is just so important for the Lakers. Like this was such a huge pick up for them because when you looked at the roster before they got him, who was defending on the perimeter that you felt comfortable with? Vanderbilt, like that's okay, great, but like we know the offensive limitations with what he has. I'm kind of off the whole experiment at this point like it was fun for a while, but getting Tybal, I think really changes the situation for the team. He played a limited number of games the past two seasons, but it shot incredibly well. When you look at it in cleaning the glass, his number is surprisingly better in the above the breakthroughs and not in the corners. And I think those are things that for what this Laker team needs, a guy that could defender along the perimeter and he is their best perimeter defender, smart cutter, being able to kind of do all that stuff off ball and then knock down some three balls for them. It's such a valuable position for them, such a valuable need for them that I won't be surprised if by the end of the season he's in the starting lineup. I know there's a lot of questions of what their starting lineup is going to look like. JJ said he knows three spots for sure. There's two that are wide open. I think there's going to be a lot of juggling through the year. I think he's going to cement himself as that just because they need his defense along the perimeter. Ain't going to be Austin Reeves and ain't going to be Luca defensively who's going to chase down the guys like Shay and so on. To me, this signing went under the radar. It was a late signing in the off season. And I think it's so huge and just a pure fact that if he can continue to shoot and the shot is actually real, this is going to be a huge pick up for the Lakers. And he's a great case study in how long does he have to make open shots before he's guarded like a guy who can make open shots because he's not going to be guarded. People are not going to care about this percentage and they're not going to care if the volume has been actually pretty okay, particularly last year in Portland when he came back at the end of the season. They're not going to guard him. They're going to clog the pants. They're going to clog Luca's pick and rolls and force him not only to make shots, but to make plays off the dribble and off the pass when the ball is kicked to him. But I think he's a great pick and wasn't under the radar signing. Okay, I'm going to go. My number one pick was Jalen Tyson of the Cleveland Cavaliers. I don't know if you see on your list, not on my list. So I talked about Sam Merrill as my sneaky under the radar. Six man of the year candidate last year, last week. Jalen Tyson is neck and neck with him simply because from the playoff rotation, Outwent Dean Wade, Max Truce, Dennis Truder and a little bit of Keon Ellison in came really just Peyton Watson and List Malik Thomas is really ready to contribute. And so that's going to be more on Merrill and it's going to be more on Tyson who has flashed the potential to be a three and maybe some defense three and D guy plus a little bit of secondary playmaking. He's been a short role guy when they have played mobility at center and he can screen and roll with mobility space in the floor. He's been a little bit of a secondary playmaker for them, like dribble handoff, both the handoff guy and the ball handler. It's not great, but he's got a little interesting on ball ingredient to his game. He can guard up in size pretty well. Like he can jostle against bigger guys in the post. I like the idea of hard and Mitchell Watson, Tyson and one of the bigs on the floor. And most importantly, he shot 44% on three's last year. That declined to 24% nine of 38, I believe, in the playoffs where if you look at the tracking data, he was not guarded as closely as he was in the regular season teams just ignored him into playoffs, not ignored him, but he missed open shots and contested shots in the playoffs. I just think he needs to have a big year. There are not very many teams that are under more pressure than including Cavaliers to-- I mean, they broke through to the conference finals last year. They've now doubled down. They've re-signed Mitchell for a gazillion dollars over four years on an extension. They're going to need Joe Tyson to be a steady contributor on both ends of the floor. He's got a lot of skill. I just want to see if it translates. So that's my number one pick. Yeah, no, that's a great one. Just as a sense of like, I kind of-- the more I look at the Cavs or Oscar, I kind of like the way they're getting kind of set up. They have a lot of rotational flexibility in terms of there's so many different little things that Kenny Ackinson can do. So many different lineups, he's going to be able to throw out there in combinations and how does this work? I mean, it's going to be an experiment early on. Try to figure out-- and this is the case for pretty much most teams. Figure out who works well with who and what not. I think Peyton Watson coming in was a great pickup for them. I think he slots in immediately as to starting three, but then being able to bring Tyson off the bench. And the defense is not the same as Watson at that level, but it's still pretty good. I think he's actually more physical than Watson, but he's not-- and this manifests on both offense and defense, he's not like the quickest guy changing directions in small spaces. He can be a little flat-footed. So I actually think that meshes with Watson who can guard the quicker ball handlers and Tyson can guard bigger guys. Obviously, on the other end of the floor, people will hide small guys, big guys, whoever on him. And he's got to punish that as a screensetter, as a playmaker. And the release on his jumper is a little slow, but who knows? By the way, we'll see about Cleveland. It's something-- I was super high on the Cads last year. It took the over who was a lock for me. I don't know what their line is this year. Obviously, I think their floor is super high, because the talent is just the talent. When it clicks, it really clicks. There's just something about the way they got a little boggy on offense in the playoffs, a little dribbly. Didn't like Donovan Mitchell's playmaking in the playoffs last year, compared to his usual standards. Something just kind of smells just a bit funky about them, and I'm interested to see if they find the right combos to defuncify it. By the way, speaking of the Cads, I just want to note, I am wearing my Metzad today. We did not make the playoffs, and I'm not sure you know that. The Metz had tied with the Houston Astros for the best run differential of any team that was in the American League West. So analytically, the Metzad were a playoff team this year, Mo. OK, your second pick in the impact guide draft. My second pick is, I'm heading east. I'm going with Aaron Neesmith with the Indiana Pacers. Interesting. Was it on my list? Had a pretty bad year-- first off, everybody with the Pacers had a bad year last season. And again, it was limited games. Didn't play a bunch. It was hard a lot. But it's funny when you go looking through the numbers and when he was on the floor. Like, his at-the-rim number was according to cleaning the glass in the 5th percent tile. That's not good. That's not where you want to be at all. And it's not like he's normally in the 90th or something, but he's normally at least league average. And for that to be that low, and maybe that was a product of just the way the team was set up, and the scramble, and the tanking, and everything, he is so important in the way I think they're sort of set up is that if Halibur ends back to normal, it's Halibur and Siacum and Zoo. It's going to be their main core right there and getting everything going. But he's so important for them defensively. He's so important when one of those guys goes to the bench kind of picking up the slack, making some big shots, being able to keep everything going and rhythm, like I find that when I watch him, when I watch the Pacers, I do end up finding his energy when they were going on that run, really being contagious and part of what sort of set them apart from everybody else. And I think it's really important that like, this is an underrated guy that may not get talked about as much. I know he had that big game against the Knicks and game one years ago, but like at this point, like we've kind of forgotten about the Pacers in general. And I think that's led to us to kind of forgotten. Halibur and Neesmith is going to be to this squad just because he kind of ties everything together sort of as that role player that sort of around the margins makes them so much better. - Yeah, and all the focus justifiably on that Pacers run on the pace they played with, on the egalitarian style of the offense with just so much ball movement, quick hitting passes, cutting all of that. It was a little bit lost like what a great shot making team. They were from all over the floor. And Nemhart and Neesmith kind of rounding out that starting five visceral. liable jumpshooters and defenders was just like a huge part of that. It's funny. I'm pretty confident in what Aaron D's with is and what he isn't. Like I think this is about what he is. If I had to have picked a pacer, I probably would have picked Obi-Toppin just because I wonder he was so emblematic of the pace and the spirit that they played with and played so well for them two years ago. Might need to play a little bit more backup five this year than he did then given their backup center situation. I like J. Huff fine. He would have been my pick. All right, I'm going to go. I'm now we're going to get to my cheat pick where I have two guys. They're not even really related. They just play on the same team and they come off the bench for the same team. I took Terrence Shannon Jr. and Johann Baron J as a pairing for the Minnesota Turnbullos for obvious reasons. Like Baron J is now going to be thrust into a role as the no doubt about it back up five to really go bare after playing limited minutes and showing a lot of encouraging things and showing a lot of youth in limited minutes and Terrence Shannon Jr. For better or worse, sometimes better, sometimes worse, just shot out of a cannon every time he gets onto the floor and he is going to have to figure out how to be shot out of a cannon playing with a rim running center pretty much all 48 minutes that the most play they're going to have go bear or bear J on the floor. There's that he Shannon looked most comfortable in those like Randall plus Reed minutes when the floor was a little bit more open. Look, like Baron J is very young. He's untested and Terrence Shannon Jr. is a little bit a little bit wild at times or get some tunnel vision when he has the ball defensively Chris Finch has spotted enough mistakes that he kind of gets fed up with it, but he did shoot 41% on threes, fairly open threes, but he made his threes and I just think, you know, if the wolves, by the way, both of these guys is, you know, a total non shooter and bear J's case. He's a rim runner. That's what he does. He has real gravity as a rim runner. That's undeniable and great hands on the offensive glass. A little bit of a glimpse even more of like a one dribble catch one dribble put on the floor game a little bit of glimpse, but like both of them are going to have to figure out like the cominga question is tied up in this too. Like how many shaky shooters can you put on the floor at once, but like these guys are pretty high on the death chart now with Devon Chenzo injured and stuff that if Minnesota is going to hit the way they think they might be able to hit one or both who need to be real good for 15 to 18 minutes of game every night. Yeah, the thing for me was Shannon that worries me a little bit more is how much of it is the ball has to be in his hands more, because that's really when he, you know, that run in the playoffs where it's because those guys were out and he had the ball in his hands a lot more. He showed how much more comfortable and even Finch, Finch even said it in one of his post game press conferences, right? Like, you know, I played major crunch time minutes and pretty much every close game against the Spurs and scored 24 points in the closeout game against Denver. Yeah, I mean, so it's, you know, but now when you're when he's going to be on the floor, you know, with with some sort of combination of Ant or Lamello, how often is the ball going to be this? Can he make him? Can he figure out now how to play a little bit more off ball? Now that he's we've seen what he can do when he has the ball in his hands, but he's not going to be the ball's not going to be in his hands a lot. And I think that's where I'm concerned about with him with Baron J. It's, you know, these are great picks because these are guys that like like you said, they're going to have to play major minutes for them. There's not really another alternative. Can they step up to the level? Which the wolves are going to need them to to be able to make this stuff all look. Hey, we made all the right decisions we need to make in the soft season because if Baron J doesn't pan out or has, you know, the sophomore slump type of season, it's going to look really rough because who do you go to as you're back up big after that? Like you're really just in a terrible position. You're going to play incredibly small. It's going to be difficult. That's what it is. You play small. Yeah. And that's just at that point, like it's tough. Like you're you're really going to be challenged at that point if you're a Minnesota. So these guys have to hit for them. It's a great point about Shin and having the ball and how Ant was out a couple of those games where he really thrived. And by the way, credit to the wolves for gutting out some big wins without Ant in the playoffs last year. His first step is like outrageous. And you can imagine a world where he has the ball in a five out environment and like you can play off of him if you want. You're not going to be able to stay in front of him. And like when he runs pick and roll, which he does like actually more than I thought when I went back, I'm grinded some of the table. When he rejects picks and goes the other way, if teams aren't being smart and playing back and going under, he's like at the rim in a blur. Now he only shot like 54% at the rim last year, which is really bad. A lot of his for his position. A lot of his takes are a little bit wild. Like once he gets going full speed, he's not stopping. And a lot of his passes are sort of desperate last minute kickouts that maybe get intercepted or deflected. And when he misses it, the room he falls over and their transition defense is compromised. And it's the kind of stuff that drives coaches nuts. But there's something there where you can see him. You talked about off the ball. Like he's going to have to improve as a cutter, mover, all that. But like he's going to have to do things like Ant go bear pick and roll. Ant hits go bear in the pocket. Go bear rockets into a hand off with Terence and junior coming from the empty side corner where the reads are a little simpler. Defense is already compromised. He's going to have to be able to execute that stuff. And bear in J the defensive rim protection is real. The role gravity is rose guy get better as a screener. And his defense of rebounding, I think, was a little bit glessier because he's trying to block everything. That's typical young guy stuff. But yeah, I mean, like, this is a really interesting team. But these guys have to hit to at least some I'm not expecting like all star turns, but they've got to hit to some degree. All right, you want to make your last pick? We're having a real lap. Yeah. I'm disappointed. I don't think my third guy is going to be one of your picks. Well, I know we're not going to overlap because you cheated. So did I. Oh, okay. I cheated. Maybe we'll have overlap. I want with Billy Donovan, who came in as an assistant coach. You really cheated. I really cheated. I really cheated on this one. So I was a little bit happy when you told me you cheated. I was like, okay, cool because my cheating won't have looked as bad. But just the pure fact of the spurs him coming in as an elite assistant. His first offensive numbers look look good, right, especially in the regular season. They're offensive rating, all that stuff. There are so many times where the offense looks rudderless at moments where they kind of don't know where they want to go. And I think there's a level of like, we need to kind of figure out our offense. Their crunch time offense was terrible in the playoffs, right? In clutch games, their net rating was minus 10.8 in 11 games over the course of the regular season. And don't fact check me. It's small math. So it's close, but might not be totally accurate. Except we accept low math. They blew about 14 to 15 double digit leads. And that's probably to be in young, but that's a product also of not really understanding, you know, how to play with the leads and things like that. I think having a guy like Billy Donovan as your lead assistant, I think kind of brings that like I'm excited for that. It was funny because when the news was announced, everybody was like, oh, Mitch Johnson better watch out. I was like, no, this is actually the opposite. This is going to help them so much. Just allowing Billy Donovan to just, hey, let's focus on our offense. Let's figure out how we want to use, how do we want to deploy Wembee? Where's the Wembee spot? Like that's the one part of his game that hasn't quite been figured out. I think we're all, I think it'll end up being the high post and be kind of like a jerk-esque type thing, but they still haven't figured out their flow offensively. And a lot of times it looked disjointed. And I think for me, like an underrated X factor is the effect Billy Donovan's going to have on their offense. Because I think that's going to be the goal. They know what they're going to defend. Sean Sweeney gave them the defensive package, the blueprint, what not. Now they need to figure out their offensive system and blueprint. And I think that's what Donovan's going to do while he's there. And I think it's really important. And if they get that part figured out, like, man, everybody's going to be in trouble. Sean Sweeney would have been good coaching, cheating, wild card pick. You know, if we're going to cheat this exercise, like you did, but it's a good, that's a good pick. I have a lot of respect for Billy Donovan as a coach, only additive for this person. I'm going to make my last pick. And I forgot to mention this about Terrence Shannon. A lot of the guys that I'm picking at least, and even like a guy like you picked like Tybal, I picked Jalen Tyson and Terrence Shannon Jr. And now I'm going to pick Jacobi Walter from the Raptors. A lot of these guys, when they go and get stuff in the playoffs, are going to be the guys that other teams put either their smallest defender on or their worst defender on, or hey, can we hide a big man over there? Because he's not so dangerous. And we can then switch pick and rules because we won't have our big man defending the opposing big man. And the commonality is any of these guys to really hit has to figure out how do I hurt, how do we hurt that scheme? How do we can do? Can I bully a smaller player? Can I go into a DHO if I'm guarded by a bigger player? Can I be active on the second side? Jacobi Walter to me won that shooting guard Derby over Grady Dick and to a lesser extent Jameson Battle last year. And I just think he and Colin Murray boils, whether they start, whether they come off the bench, now I'm assuming they will both start the season coming off the bench, are just so critical in rounding out the Raptors. Like quickly, Barrett, Barnes, Leonard, Pearl, tons of size, tons of physicality, lots of ball handling, kind of lacks a guy who doesn't need the ball is willing to space the floor can maybe make enough plays off the dribble against closeouts, and I think that's the next frontier for Walter. But look, he had 41% on almost seven threes per 36 minutes in the regular season down to 33% in the playoffs, but took almost like eight and a half per 36 minutes. That's and defense really well at the point of attack and on the wing too. That's like the starting template for an important player on any serious team. And I again, I don't know how many minutes he's going to play what his role is going to be I've talked about RJ Barrett's, you know, kind of future in Toronto. He's up for an extension. Collide just got paid the math is what it is. I don't really know what's going to happen there. Nobody does. But Jacobi Walter to me is like everyone's high on the Raptors. I'm high on the Raptors. He's one of those guys who if the Raptors are this 50 win team that people think they can be. He's going to have a solid year in a lot of like maybe not starting but closing a fair amount of games started in the playoffs because of injuries. Like I there's something interesting brewing there. The thing about it too is like if he rises up to that level, it really changes the calculus of what you do with RJ Barrett. It's almost like you can't really give the extension so much to RJ until you know what you have in Walter. And how do you kind of play that out and how does this work out and how are we going to figure these things out. And so it's it's really kind of important not just for how they can play and win in this season. But almost how they're building out over the next couple seasons of what they're going to do because yet like they're. I mean the the yack a portal contract extension kicks in next year. When is he eligible for an extension again the Raptors we got to get ahead of that like we got it before. Can we can we send him now five years 150. So I think this is I think this is like a this is a great pick in the way of again this rounds everything out. And if he does figure out how to attack the closeout. So many opportunities from that not just from Scotty Barnes creating from it. But everybody's going to double why like if he can kind of create those if he can figure that part out of his game or flesh that out. Like things are really going to open up for the Raptors. It's so critical for what they're going to be and how are they going to be you know going into the Eastern conference is going to be ridiculously tough like it's funny how. We talk about all the big names is how the margin guys respond really are the ones that make a difference especially when we get to the playoffs. Absolutely and every team needs a guy like this sort of actualized version of Jacobi Walter whether that guy and and the next step is even in being a little steadier is a three point shooter. He doesn't drive the ball a lot and I went back and watched a lot of his drives because what a loser I am. This is what I have time to do. And he is like there are a few scattered in there where he looks kind of explosive. And it makes you think it's a decisiveness confidence issue because he looks kind of tentative and a little slower to attack close outs. Then then he does on those those other times where we're like whoa where's that guy who just drove baseline and made an up and under and it makes you wonder like as as he begins to register like I'm getting closed out on or the defense is really tilted away from me. I've got a runway. Why don't I just take it is there something else there so he was my pick. All right, let's take another quick break. We have one more fun thing to do. And then Molly will go on baby duty. You know, I've never done this before. Because it's a segment everybody does when I figured what the hell is kind of fun, particularly with the new all star format first time all stars who is going to make an all star team for the first time. I wonder assuming the NBA uses the same format as they did last year, which everyone seemed to like with the two US teams in the one world team. There will be 12 all stars chosen from each conference 24 total got that 24 that's it not 29 not necessarily. 16 of them must be American players a to them must be international players that can play on the world team. The first batch of 24 does not meet either one of those quotas IE if it's 14 US players and 10 world players, Adam silver will add two more all stars so it gets the 16 and 10 so they'll be 26 instead of 24. So I really wanted to sort of do this properly, which was like, let's see how many spots really are up for grabs because it's hard to make it all start to mother's only 24 spots. So I sent you this over email you may disagree or whatever, but I there's no all there's there are very few true all star locks given injuries and under performance whatever I made a list of guys who I called it. I would be pretty shocked if they didn't make the all start game this year and it total 16 guys so already 16 of 24 spots are gone. I like I'd be shocked if they don't make it guys you may your mileage may vary people. Jalen Brunson I'm going east to west Jalen Brunson Jason Tatum LeBron James LeBron James is going to be in all stars long as he plays it. Yes, period Carly Anthony Towns because I just think that the nicks are getting to all stars right off the bat. So, Yannis is at the Cumpo Kawai Leonard, now that's one you could global with, but I'm putting him in Cade Cunningham and Tyres Maxi in the west. Nicole Yokech, Shea Gilges Alexander, Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Luca Donchitch, Antti Edwards, Victor Wimbanyama, there are lots of great players who I didn't put as like stone cold locks like if something bad happens they can't make it like there's no second thunder player. No second spurt there's no Kyrie Irving there's no second piston there's no second Cav whatever there's no Scotty Barnes but those are my and if you reminded me that cat played for the world team last year because he's Dominican. So that would be I think what do we have nine US players and seven world players out of the out of the 16 that I just mentioned and so we got eight spots left. If I have nine players from the East and seven from the west it's sorry I mess it up it's 10 US players six world players 10 US six world and nine East seven West. If I do if that all proves right the best kind of person to be is an American player from the Western Conference is I have the most openings for you, but do you have any issues with my 16 I'd be shocked if they weren't all stars all stars. So I think that's the right list you know apart from like okay maybe a second thunder player. Maybe you know it's hard in that vein to kind of figure it out but I think that's the right list the other the one guy I thought was like oh maybe Jaylen Brown but the problem is like or three spurt or three six years going to make it. It like and beat same thing well and beat may not plan up like so I have and then I wrote down after those 16 guys to again put in perspective how hard it is to crack this is a first time. I wrote down pretty much every other name I could think of that are you either have made an all star team already like the guys you just mentioned or I could see like a plausible path to making the all star team this year for the first time. That was 48 guys for 8 remaining spots I had a lot of guys on there but there's a there are super duper stars on this list Tyree's Haliburde like he's Pascal see outcomes a multi time all Scottie bar Anthony Davis and sure young on and on and on. So that's the Devon Booker like there's just Larry Marken and tons of guys that's how hard and they're all either have either made recent all star teams or like plausibly I could see you getting there. So that's what we're working with Mo give me your like top two picks if you had to bet money actual money which I do not keep going I don't bet money. But if you had to bet money on a first time all star who is your number one pick be I have a like stone cold number one let's see if we have the same idea. I have stone cold Cooper flags a lot what going to be an all star this year second year player I think there's going to be so much I mean just having Kyrie within I think is going to free him up so much I'm so excited for the second season of Cooper flag where he really started to kind of come into his own a little bit at the end of the season. I'm going to be really fascinated to see what dusty made us first time NBA head coach getting that opportunity and seeing how that kind of flows through everything. I have it as a lock Cooper flag and he only I have another guy that's a lock that he just edged out. I will see if I don't name him because those I bet it's going to be my guy because Cooper flag was not my number one stone cold like if I had to bet one I'd bet one he's on my very very short list he's high he's in high later and everything my only my only worry would be are they are they under 500 because sometimes the coaches won't vote in somebody from a losing team and Kyrie also will be on on this list as it's not a first time but an all star candidate. I if I had to pick one I would pick Austin Reeves American player Western conference high wattage team with the Lakers LeBron has gone the hierarchy is clear he's already shown that playing next to Luca he can average 25 27 a game with efficiency up the wazoo playmaking I think the Lakers are going to be good. I would look forward to the day when the spurs get one all star in the thunder get one all star in the Lakers who are 10 games behind them in the standings get to everyone goes crazy. and it's a lot of angry takes all day long. And by the way, the thunder are going to get to all stars for sure. Jay Dubchett, one of those guys will make it. But also was like, he was here number two pick. He was my, he was my, the other guy who I had two guys in my notes. I write my type my notes. So I had the the lock emoji next to it. Those are the only two guys I've had as locks who I think will be first time all stars. All right, I'm going to, I'm just going to name some other guys. Steph Castle, Michael Porter, Jr. Don't take the net to win enough games. And now I'm being very generous and you're going to see how, how high, unreasonably high I am on one particular Western conference team. If it's a Zubat, don't think he's going to do well enough in Indiana to make the all-star team in these. Okay, so I'm just going to preventively say just don't laugh. So don't laugh. And this was a long list. It's an extended list. It includes 48 players. One of them is Zach Edie representing the world team. Would that do the plays he puts up numbers? That's all I'm saying. And the other is my pick for rookie of the year. Cam Bouser. I think Cam Bouser is walking in and putting up big numbers. And if the Grizzlies are at 500 when the voting happens, who the hell knows? Long shots. Now, now, and then I have Oman Thompson. Conconniple. Brandon Miller. Again, a little worried if Starlet's like 10th, 11th and the East. Are they getting an ulcer? I don't know. And how is there in Conn's? Obviously now there was this hamstring thing. They came up last week. Not sure how long. If if any, he'll miss. Miller is, excuse me, always injured. And now I'm going to get. Now I'm going to get to my two other candidates that I think are interesting. The most obvious one is Franz Wagner. I think he would be neck and neck with Austin Reeves for me. For like one of my like number one or two picks in this draft. Did you have them on your list? I had them on my list. As especially with the Euros, the world team, excuse me. He's, I think that's a good guy to have on that list. I mean, he's almost disadvantaged because they're just the eight world spots versus the 16 U.S. spots. It's hard to crack. But I thought he was the best player on the magic last year when he was healthy. I think they probably win that series against the pistons if he doesn't get hurt. Would I take him over Paolo if I were starting a team? I might actually might because I have a little bit more confidence in him fitting into a second error role than I do with Paolo, but you know, your mileage may vary. My other one, I just wonder, I just wonder Mo. So a lot of shine, a lot of residual shine on everything that touches the next. And for good reason, I just wonder if they're the number one seed in the East as the voting takes place or the coaches make their picks. And this guy is doing mostly what he did last year when I thought he had a pretty good fringe all-star case. If OG Aninobi cracks the all-star roster, was he on your list at all? He actually was. And he's actually like those were the kind of the two spots I had was front and OG. Part of it is if it could, on that thinking, if the nicks are the number one seed and they're rolling and just coming off the championship and just the residual of the OG tip in you know, from the rafters. Like I feel like that's something there. It's challenging because there's even the two world spots could be up for grab that may not go to first time all-stars. You know, we still have Denny Advia in Port-Ledona. There's tons of guys. If your guy has not been named, don't expect there's just too many guys today. I'm not going to sit here and say, come on, it's a bonus just to say his name there. I said it. The king's thank is not going to make you off 13. It's just like, but it's just the way I look at it. You know, OG versus Denny, I would, I would, I got to go OG in terms of if they have the similar type of seasons, I think it's him and then just off the weight of coming off the championship. I had him as my eighth year world player. Very good role, a very good job by OG on SNL. I did not catch it yet. I think you should catch it. Do you want to me to give you my brief review of the deal and play in SNL? Please. OG, great cameo in the opening monologue where all four of the other starters ask questions from the audience. The question from the audience thing is always the gimmick SNL goes to when they're not sure how good the guy doing the monologue is going to be or they have and or they have no better ideas. OG, very funny. He asked Joe and Brunson, I, hey, remember when you missed that shot toward the end of game four against the spurs in the finals? And then Joe and Brun said, yeah, and OG is like, do you remember what happened after that and the crowd went insane? Have you, have you seen the clip of the office MVP? I'm not saying anything. I've been in wallowing and pain and misery with my college football team. He plays kind of a Clark Kent. Yeah, sorry about USC. I'm not that sorry, actually. He plays kind of a Clark Kent office worker trying to make, you know, trash can baskets and he can't do it. And then he reveals himself as actually, Jill and Brunson and says he just wants to be a common man working in an office and make garbage, make trash can shots and he can't do it. It has a great line directed at Sharon, Sarah Sherman, who I love and I will not spoiler the line. But he missed his a million shots with papers. He's missing on purpose. And then he has one at the end where he reveals himself as Jill and Brunson, the crowd starts cheering smoke. Mist comes up from the ground and he shoots up what's not a paper. It's a clearly like a ball at the trash can. And now they have used Moe pretty much the biggest office trash can you could possibly imagine for this. But he made it and then everyone goes crazy. They chant MVP. I wonder they must have planned it altered at ending in case he missed it. But in true, Jill and Brunson fashion just nothing didn't even hit the rim, just nothing. There's a great high school musical parody where Jill and Brunson is a new kid coming, coming to the school and wants to join the basketball team and they're eventually mean and standoffish to him and then of course he dominates them. I'm going to give Jill and Brunson's full grade as SNL host of B minus. He was fine. He was fine. He seemed kind of nervous, which I would understand. It takes some courage to get out of your comfort zone in front of a giant audience that's very season premiere, all of that. And it does make you appreciate like you really like actors are super skilled at a million different things. But one of them is talking loudly and clearly in a way that regular people in their regular lives do not do. And he was rushed a little bit in some of his dialogue. But I think he nailed some of the lines. He had to nail entertaining, entertaining overall. And the monologue with OG and Cat and Michele Bridges and Josh Hart, of course, is very good. I recommend it. It's a good getting watch it before the baby comes most. I'm going to have plenty of time holding the baby and watching stuff. So I will be putting that on the the area. I'll make sure I get on that. Shout out to Jane Wickline, who you know, I is a little hitter missed for me, but she had an incredible impression of the CEO of Anthropic on weekend update. And Jeremy Cole Hayne, who I think is very funny is the star, the other star of the high school musical parody, who is victimized by Jalen Brunson. He's fantastic. And now it's over and it's back to the season. And Nick's had their media day today. And Jalen Brunson was basically like on to the next. I think everyone on this group is on to the next. Cat talked about his looming extension talks that have kind of stalled out and how it's just kind of a thing. They do strike me as a group mode that is on the one hand, every team that climbs the mountain top can rest on its laurels a little bit because it's like 82 games, a lot of games, but they don't strike me as a team that's going to just be like, "Oh, we did what we set out to." I think they're like, I think they're, no, we haven't had a repeat in eight years. I thought the Celtics had a great chance to do it after 24. Obviously the Thunder had a great chance to do it after 25, neither did it. I think the Nick's probably have less of a chance than either of those teams would appear on paper. They are my pick to make the Finals out of the East, and thus I changed my mind before I make my official official picks. But I think they're pretty hungry. And they strike me as a team that's going to chase it, which I absolutely love. I think they're going to. I think they're all in on this stuff. They still have a few things to figure out. Andre Drummond's a very different backup center than Mitchell Robinson. And sort of presents that stuff. It wasn't just Kat, though, who brought up his contract. It was, you know, Josh Hart also mentioned it. McBride also mentioned it. And it's going to be interesting to see where those guys kind of a guy that could have been one of our underrated ex-factors who had to be curious about is Diara. I like him. He was a guy that I was thinking about before I decided to go off the wall and cheat. And I think the, I think there's going to be a lot of stuff that they still have to sort of figure out and fill in. But I don't think they're resting on their laurels. I think they want the juice. You saw how juiced up the city was. I think they want to continue that run. And I think that's what we're going to get from them. All right, Moe. I mean, who knows when the next time we'll pot is you're going to have a wonderful event happen for you. Best of luck to you and your wife. Enjoy it. And I, you know, I, I don't wish the Dodgers any ill will in the playoffs. But I will be the low family will be throwing its baseball royalties for the second consecutive season behind the Milwaukee Brewers in the National League. And of course, my dad's favorite team, the Boston Red Sox in the American League, doubly so because the Boston Red Sox are playing the evil empire in the first round of the playoffs. That would be our official allegiance. My daughter has agitated for watching playoff baseball, even though the meds are eliminated. I could not be happier about this agitation. So that's where we are mode to kill. Best of luck. Preemptive. Congratulations. Have some fun. Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I'm not going anywhere, Zach. I'm going to be farting throughout all of this, so I'm ready. And maybe maybe take a little time, Mo. Okay. You're not the MVP here. Okay. Just set some picks and come back to us in a while, but we'll see you soon. All right. Excited to welcome in our next guest, the author of this book right here, Heartland, about Larry Byrd at Indiana State University, Heartland, a forgotten place, an impossible dream, and the miracle of Larry Byrd. Keith O'Brien, you are the best selling author of five books. This is the most recent one. I loved this book, and I just want to have you on to talk about it. It's been out for what nine months, so I'm late to the party. I read it a long time ago, but I've never too late to talk about a good book. Never too late. It's only been six months, that's where good, we're good. We're in the, we're still in the promotional tour. Okay. Um, it is a bold decision to go to a publisher and say, I want to write a book about one of the eight to ten at worst greatest basketball players of all time. And that player is Larry Byrd, and it's basically not going to mention the Celtics at all. It's not going to extend into the 80s. Magic Johnson is going to be a peripheral character just in the championship game in 1979. And I'm going to write a lot about these anonymous dudes who were his teammates at Indiana State and had very unlikely backgrounds and connections with him. And yet, that is what I loved about the book. I loved digging into all of these guys lives before Larry Byrd, after Larry Byrd, the community, the sports bars that they go to. But was it a tough sell or did you already have like a book deal, like multi book deal already done? Like did they try to dissuade you from this and be like, can you write something more obviously commercial? >> I love it, great question. So yeah, I mean, there were lots of questions, but he wants the Byrd Magic thing, it feels like, right? It's certainly the big publishers want to hear that. And no, to answer your question directly, I didn't have a multi book deal. So I was shopping this, shopping it fresh once again. And certainly, there were some places who passed on it. One point somebody said, why don't you do a whole Larry Byrd biography from start to finish. And my answer was simply, I feel like we've done that, I feel like we've heard that. And for me anyway, as a sports fan and as a storyteller and as a reader of stories, I want to tell something new. And I just didn't know what new ground could be covered with yet another Byrd Magic story. And so what I always wanted to do from the beginning was what I did here, which was tilt the camera in that slightly different direction. All these years, the past 50 years, while we've been telling the Byrd Magic story, this other story's been sitting right there. And it's always gotten short shrift because when you always do the Byrd Magic thing, where do you fit it all in? And so, to me, it was an origin story. And I always thought about it in my mind as, you know, I'm not writing Star Wars episodes for, you know, I'm writing like Rogue One, you know, I'm writing Rogue One, a backstory before the story that gives us everything we need to know about this guy who we'll know later. I think if you asked, engaged NBA fans, hey, what do you remember about Larry Byrd's college basketball career? I think most of them would say Indiana State. I think most of them would say, landmark championship game, undefeated run to that game and they lose to Michigan State and Magic Johnson. I think most of them would say, wait, wasn't there the weird thing where the Celtics drafted him a year early when he was still in school and had to wait for him? Like, how did that work? I think some percentile them would be like, wait, didn't he go to Indiana for a hot second and hate it and leave and I'm not really sure what happened there. And then there's a vague like maybe he was a garbage man at some point. But I think fleshing out all of the like, you have a lot in there about his time, his recruitment, which is fascinating. His decision to go to Indiana under Bob Knight and why that didn't work. I think fleshing out all of those things leading up to the Indiana State Sycamore's team was super interesting. And I definitely learned stuff that I didn't know about his recruitment and his time in Indiana. But my favorite thing about this book was that it feels extremely lived in. Like you go to Terahote, you go to French lick. It's very clear that you spent a concert about in a time there. You outline the geography of it. So you've clearly driven around probably stayed God knows how many nights there. There's a bar called the Jubel, am I pronouncing it right, the Jubel bar, which you describe like lovingly as a place where people would all congregate, including Larry and his family and his dad who you get into his dad's suicide, which is another thing I think probably people would know. But so, and it just, it's rare to find a nonfiction book that take that can close my eyes and really picture the streets, the roads, the bars, the houses that houses that all of these players lived in growing up. How much time did you spend there and how much time had you spent there kind of gathering stuff before you even had this book deal signed? >> So I'll take the second half of that first. I didn't set foot in Indiana until the book was sold, I'd sold the book, sold the idea. I had done a lot of phone interviews, I had done a lot of leg work, I knew the story, I could see the story, and I knew exactly where it ended. And so I knew all of that, but I don't set foot in Indiana until I know I've got a book to write. And at that point, I'm spending a lot of time there, you know, I spent a lot of time in French like, yeah, I would stay at the best western on the edge of town, that was my place. I spent a lot of time in Tera Ho, I always sit at the same hotel, write downtown, write by the Larry Bird statue. And, you know, I wanted this to be a story that was more than just a story about Larry, but a story of a team, a time, a place. And in order to make it about a team in a time and a place, I got to know that place. So, you know, it was a lot of time and take, for example, the Jubilbar. This was a bar on the little country highway in West Bay in Springs, Indiana. West Bay in Springs in French like, are two little towns right next to each other. Big time Larry Bird's fans who bend down there, you know this, bird grew up in both of those towns, you know, throughout the course of his life, not just French like. There's essentially one community, go to the same high school. And I didn't know that Jubilbar was a place. And the Jubilbar isn't a place technically anymore, it's gone. It was only in the library, you know, in French like, going through the old Springs Valley Herald, the old newspaper page by page, day by day, that I begin to see stories about the Jubilbar, see advertisements for the Jubilbar. And now I'm starting to wonder, what is the Jubilbar and also wanting to know the next question. You know, Larry's father was known to be a drinker and an alcoholic, did Larry's dad spend time at the Jubilbar? So, you know, these are questions that come up only after I'm reporting the book and chasing down only after I'm there. And you know, I came to find out that the owner of the Jubilbar in the 70s, I'm talking 50 years ago, still alive today, by interview them, you know, tracks him down. And you know, he of course, have vivid memories of Joey Bird, Larry's father being at the bar. You know, now the Jubilbar is a character, is a place, you know, in my story. And that matters because without spoiling it for folks, the Jubilbar will figure in the end scene of this book as well. And so all of that happens only with boots on the ground reporting. You know, only when you're there, can you begin to sort of really see the story? You know, you mentioned a time and a place in what's remarkable about reading this book about starting with the teams that were recruiting Larry Bird in the mid to late 70s. It was still possible then for coaches and parts of the country to either not know that there was a Larry bird in this little town in Indiana or no too late to even get into the recruiting process. Like Louisville gets in, Kentucky gets in, but kind of late compared to Indiana. And and he doesn't even make, if I'm remembering credit, he doesn't even make like all state in Indiana as a high school player. And then the most remarkable thing, I think it's 1977, his first season at ISU, they play Houston in the NIT. So like the NIT is still a pretty big tournament and it's beginning to be known as the second cousin of the NCAA tournament, Houston's a big program. And Larry scores 44 points in that game, they lose. And Guy Lewis Houston's coach says, the famous coach of 5 Slamma Jamma years later, says after the game, I'm sorry I didn't even know this kid's name before we played them. It's like, he's already in college and like this, you have this coach admitting like, I didn't even know who this dude was and he just lit us up for 44 points. It's really incredible. >> I mean, we forget what the world was like, you know. Larry Bird nearly disappears in 74 after he briefly enrolls in Bloomington and then returns home to French lick, hitchhiking home, you know, that's the one to worry. >> Hitchhiking, he leads Indiana University. IU, the holy grail of college basketball, hates it. And I want you to get, I want to put a pin in that because I want to get back to it. And he hitchhikes home and then like vanishes. >> Yeah, well, we will come back to that. I was just saying like, he nearly disappears that winter, right? It's not just that he drops out and he, you know, works on a garbage truck for a while. He nearly disappears that winter forever. You know, Bird is telling everybody, I'm not going back to college. And one thing I learned about Bird in the writing of this book is he, he only says what he means. That's it. He said what he meant in 1974. He says what he means in 2026. That's it. He doesn't say things for effect. He doesn't say things to stir up trouble for drama. He doesn't want any of that. He just speaks his mind, right? And so if Larry Bird was telling his mother, maybe most importantly, and the winter of '74, '75, that he's not going back to college. Well, you can bet he's not going back to college. And, you know, it's only, you know, Bill Hodges, this down in his lock assistant coach who goes down to French Lake looking for Bird, who's sort of almost in my mind. And I always thought about this way, Zach. It's like he just, it's like Bill Hodges almost grabs Bird by the shoulder right before he disappears forever and pulls him back from the brink. And it's that personal connection those two have. I tell you that story because, you know, in 2026, even a poor kid in rural America, you know, wouldn't disappear forever if they had the basketball talent that Larry Bird had. You know, they would have a team of handlers, lawyers, marketers, agents from the age of 14, 15, 16. They'd go looking for you. You wouldn't have to go looking for them. And certainly Bird wouldn't have slipped through the cracks like he did back then, all the way to Indiana State. But, you know, French Lake is way down in the southwest corner of the state. It's remote. It's hard to get there. It's hard to get there today. It was really hard to get there in 1974. And so yeah, you know, back to your original point. Larry Bird is not first team all state, 1974. He is not second team all state, 1974. He is honorable mention all states. There's at least 20 guys who are considered better basketball players than Bird and 74 in Indiana, which is one reason why Bobby Knight is even really sure what he has, you know, in Larry. And he's not totally committed to him. And Knight suffers from that flaw that a lot of, you know, important men suffer from. It's hubris, you know, he believes he knows what he has with his team. And he doesn't really care about this kid, Larry Bird. Well, so in my head, if you had asked me before to, I read this book, why did he draw? Why did he leave Indiana University? I would say, you know, it's like, I think it may have been just too big, too much attention. He's a small town kid. And like, there's part of that in the book. But he's also like mocked there by his teammates, which I didn't either, didn't never knew where you have refreshed my memory or uncovered fresh reporting. They like basically are telling Larry Bird, you suck, man, like we're not even picking you and pick up games, like you're a joke, where are you from, what little town are you from? And he leaves, and he goes home to French, Link, West Bay, and whatever. And works for the city as a sanitation worker. And I believe at this time, it rolls at like a community college or like a technical college in place for that local teams, the local university's basketball team. And I wonder, like, I don't think you interviewed Larry for this book, but I'm not sure. But I wonder, like what I read the book, and then he eventually goes back to Indiana State, as you mentioned, he's pulled back in. It honestly seemed in the book that through the winning, the fame, all of it, the happiest Larry Bird seems in the book according to people around him is in that time where he's working for the city and playing for a nothing technical college and just living near his friends and his family with no pressure. Obviously, I'm being a little facetious. He goes on to become a gazillionaire and a GM of the Pacers had coach, all that. But there seems to be like a brief period there, according to my interpretation of your book, where this is like, that is the core of who he was as a person. And he has a level of happiness as a sanitation worker that he doesn't have anywhere else in the book. >> You know, again, Larry told people that winter, he liked the job. He liked the work. He liked working outside. He liked working with a crew. He loved having specific tasks that needed to be done outside with a crew. And, by the way, Larry Bird still loves working outside today. He would not speak to me for this book. I tried many ways. >> I think a lot of us have our stories of, I've only made one real run at getting an interview with Larry. And it was for a big piece I did during the fight of the pandemic when nothing was going on other than the last dance. I wrote about game seven of the Pacers Bull Series in 1998. And I just tried every possible avenue I could find to get to in my head. Intermediaries, Jackie McMullan tried to help me jail. And Rose tried to help me. Other people tried. It got to him and it got to his assistant. And he was basically like, no. But if you have a yes, no question, like a fact check maybe through an intermediary, I can do that. But that was it. I think we all have those stories. >> Yeah, and I knew that going in. We all know that Larry is a bit of a reckless. And he wanted to be in the 70s, you know? From the moment the spotlight finds him in 1977. In the months after that game that you mentioned, the Houston Indiana State game in the spring of '77, the spotlight will find him and it will burn brights. And from the moment it does find him, he wants to escape it. He wants to get back to the shadows, back to where he was. And in a lot of ways, it feels like some 50 years later, Larry is finally managed to do that. He's finally found the shadows again. But back to that winter of '74, you're absolutely right. He leaves Indiana, he hitchhikes home. He enrolls at that little vocational school, which was, by the way, a school that existed in the framework of an old burned out hotel. I mean, it was barely a school itself. He does play for the basketball team there. I interviewed as many people as I could who were on that team. You know, on the Northwood Institute team in the fall of '74. And you know, the story they told me about Larry Bird, walk him into the little gym there in West Bay in Springs. I mean, he was unbelievable. But within months, you know, he quits there. You know, he's now working for the city, Holland Trash. And yeah, he's happy. He's happy. But all of this is happening in that dark, dark winter. You know, where Larry's father will take his own life. So this is really the moment where we could have lost Bird Forever. And in my opinion, based on my reporting, we very nearly did. A couple of other things that I learned about Larry from this book. I mean, you know, we know that he's a feisty character as a basketball player. There are at least-- I think there are three different fights in this book that he gets into. One, as part of a US team traveling around the world, traveling to former Yugoslavia, I think, to place him international teams. I believe the fight is during a game against Cuba. And two with fans. One, at the '78 NIT, I think, where a fan kind of grabs him and starts taunting him and calling him bird shit after Indiana State loses. And another against New Mexico State, which is a huge rivalry of Indiana State. One of the great things about this book is, like, I know there are 33 and 0 going into the championship game. You go into game by game, some of their most dramatic games. And I'm like, I didn't know they had a big rivalry with New Mexico State University. And it was like a blood rivalry. But those-- and in the New Mexico State, when I think he dives out of bounds, and the fans are holding him, trying to keep him from going on. So he's often-- he's like, mostly defending himself or his teammates. But there are a couple, like, he-- in the NIT, when I think he, like, pops a fan. And there's blood all over the place. And you talk about how the local papers kind of decide. We're not going to write about this because this guy's our favorite son. You have a black teammate of his actually saying, I think if a black player had done this, the press would have been much, much worse to him. Talk about, if you could reporting those things and reading about them and how much was just you, kind of like, wow, this is like, did you know about any of these fights before you went in? >> No, I didn't. I didn't know about the fighting against the Cuban national team in the summer of '77. I didn't know about the punch he threw at that fan at Rutgers in the spring of '78. And then the punch in the middle of the game, the middle of the game in the stands against New Mexico State and a regionally televised game that game was televised in New Mexico and back in Indiana that night. But let's be honest, you simply couldn't get away with it today. No player could, no matter your race, no matter your race today, you can't throw punches at fans, you can't do that, it's verboten. And the punch by the way that Burd throws at Rutgers on the floor, I mean, he lays that guy out. He had to go to the hospital, I spoke with about 20 people who were on the floor that night when Burd throw the punch. One of them told me, I thought the guy was dead, blood was everywhere and he was flat on the floor and it is fascinating to see how the media handles it. By then, Burd is going to be a first team all-American and he's about to be selected in the first round by the Boston Celtics, even though he's going to return to school. So he is a star, even though he still hasn't played on national TV. And most people have never seen Burd play, but he is a star. And the next day's papers in the New York area are very critical of Burd and the punch and the moment. And there's interviews even with the student who he injured. So it's a big story on the East Coast, but in Indiana, there's literally nothing written about it, nothing. It's like it didn't happen at all. They describe it as like a kerfuffle or a confusion on the floor. >> Confusion. It's a hazy chaos. >> Yeah. >> We don't really know. >> Well, I mean, so, he gets away with it because he's a star and I do agree with what the couple of players told me, that if it was a black player who had done that, does Larry get away with it? I don't think so. >> Look, I mean, there's plenty in this book about Larry Burd. It's like just as a heroic admirable person, a guy who is all about work and not about glitz and really cares about his friends and his teammates. But you get into his warts too and this is one of them. And another one of them is like, we all know he likes his privacy and he's a recluse now and all that, as you said. But the degree to which he ducks the media throughout Indiana States, like meteoric run to number one in the country, is like, he would have gotten kind of ripped for that today. Even they lose the national title game to Michigan State. I did not know this. He does not speak to reporters after the game. And the guy, the real heroes of this book are the Indiana State PR staff because they're constantly covering for him and like typing out quotes and handing it to people and being like, hey, you can attribute this to Larry. Some of those people I'm sure you interviewed and they are delightful character. That's another thing about this book is, do you get into the inner workings of even in the late 70s, the mechanism behind a big traveling college basketball team and all these staff members that are largely anonymous to the public, but know these players back and forth and are doing so much for them. And like the PR guys are the heroes of this book. >> Well, as a journalist and as a historian, the often the best stories are kept by those people, right? It's the staffers, it's the workers, it's the people in the room had a job to do. And you're absolutely right, the PR staff at Indiana State, which was rather small. It was two people, it was two people. They are caught in this crucible between this crush of media interests, reporters from across the country who want to come to Terahote, just to meet Larry and talk to Larry for even five minutes, right? >> Like you've got to say, when Sports Illustrated comes in, when Sports Illustrated is the biggest game in the world for anybody in sports, they fly in and they're used to people rolling out the red carpet and Larry's like, I don't want to touch these guys. >> Well, and I talked to Larry Keith, the legendary basketball writer. He was the first national writer to show up in Terahote. It's January 78, he comes in really blind to tell this early underdog story. Indiana State was having a good season, they were starting off undefeated in 77-78, they were like 10-0, 11-0, 12-0. And Larry Keith comes in to write a story of this little underdog team around Larry Bird. He doesn't even really know much about it, he doesn't know Bird's backstory, he doesn't know about Bird's dad, he doesn't know that Bird once worked on a trash truck, he doesn't know any of that. He just knows it's a good story. He gets there while now the stuff starts to spill out, but Larry won't talk to him. And so, Larry Keith, again, legendary basketball writer does what legendary writers do. He calls around, he makes other calls. He's come to Indiana to tell this story, he's doing it, whether Bird is in or not. And ultimately Larry's story, Larry Keith's story is very friendly, but Larry Keith makes a mistake that infuriates Bird. Larry Keith calls Bird's mother down in French Lake to interview him. >> Who talks to him? That's the most improbable part, she's answers the phone, he's like, hello Sports Illustrated, what do you want? >> She's thrilled. She's thrilled, her boy, her boy from French Lake, a town with unemployment, hovering around 20% where everybody's struggling, is about to be profiled in sports illustrated heck yes, she wants to talk to Larry Keith, she's a proud mom. And so Larry informs Larry Bird informs Larry Keith while he's still there, that he has broken the rules, he has violated the rules. And with that, really Bird shuts down and we'll talk to anybody for the next year and a half. >> Have you heard from Larry Bird or anyone in his universe since the book came out? And they've had a chance to read it if they've read it? >> I've not heard from Larry Bird, I've heard from lots of people in his universe, including people quite close to him. I did, while I never did speak with Larry, I did speak with people who are quite close to him, interviewed them at lengths, spent lots of time with them. And I'll say that, people feel that the book was fair. >> They should feel that it's fair, so I don't want to spoil the whole book, people just need to go pick it up. But I will say this, my favorite kinds of books to read are the ones that surprise you with how fun and interesting they are. If I read Jonathan Abrams, who I love, a former colleague of mine at Grandland, has a book coming out about the James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant, Thunder. Obviously, it's going to be amazing, I'm going to love that. This reminds me of a book, I always cite this book, Sam Anderson wrote a book called Boom Town about the Oklahoma City Thunder, and about the history of Oklahoma City. And I cracked that book, and I'm like, I'm not really sure I'm going to be super into this like Oklahoma City, local history. And it turns out to be absolutely delightful, and one of my favorite nonfiction books I've ever read. This is the same way, in the sense of, you tell the story of all of these teammates at Indiana State, and not Harry Morgan, who maybe people remember because the team was Larry and Harry or Harry and Larry, and a bunch of anonymous dudes. You tell the stories of like, this guy gets in a tractor accident when he's a kid and he ends up playing with Larry Bird, and this guy, and each of them gets their little turn in the spotlight in the book. And in your head, you think you're going to say, can we just get to the Larry parts of this? And you end up like just being so amazed by the level of detail, and that's the best kind of compliment I can give to a book like this is just like the pleasant surprise, or like that. I'd actually like to live in this guy's life even a little bit longer, and I'm guessing you've heard from, I'm guessing they were delighted to be interviewed as just, they are aware that they are side characters in the story of someone larger than life, but they're proud of being side care. They made the national championship game. >> Well, yeah, I agree with you, they're not just side characters. Remember, Larry has three great years in college, all three of them are great. He's averaging 30 points a year, basically every year. It's only that last year that he's magical, only that last year. And that is a function of who was the coach, and who was on the bench, and who was on the floor with Larry. And when I started tracking, when I knew this is the book, I wanted to write, and how I wanted to write it. And I started to reach out to those guys on that bench, to those guys on that floor. People whose names you don't know, and track them down and told them what I was doing. Sometimes one of the first things they told me, one of the first things out of their mouth, after we got through the pleasantries and everything, was they say, you know, like that whole season, that whole time with Larry. change my life. And I would say, tell me, tell me how? And so, it's like we were almost starting at the end, you know? And for each of them, it was different, you know? I mean, they were all changed in different ways. Larry was changed in different ways. And to me, you know, that made it, I don't know, somehow more special than just bird magic, you know? We all know bird magic. And we all know March 1979 in the NSA at Michigan State and 50 million people watching, most watched college basketball game of all time. We all know that story. Well, we don't know really is how they got there, how this little team from Terahoe got there. And then we don't know what happens when they turn, you know, when they leave and fly home that next morning. And to me, there's just human story in there that's bigger than sports. It really drew me in. And so I'm so pleased to hear that it did draw you at as well, Zach. Well, and like you get into the, I don't want to spoil, but you get into the aftermath, and there are falling outs that he has with people that are like surprising. And I did not know about them. And it's just, I'll just leave the rest to people to go buy the book and read it, because it really was just a delightful. And it just, like you said, it goes to show you. There are interesting stories everywhere. And when you find people who are willing to be open and candid and someone like you who's going to go to the best western for God knows how many nights and dig in, like you get those stories. So the book again, I'm going to hold it up like I'm a late night talk show host, Heartland, a forgotten place, an impossible dream in the miracle of Larry Bird by Keith O'Brien. He's the author of four other books, I think five total or is it five? That's right. That's right. If you're a basketball fan, this is, I do not say this lightly, and I did not say this about everybody who has a book that comes on this podcast. If you're a basketball fan, you have to have this in your library. Even if you're sports fan, you should probably have it too. Keith O'Brien, thank you for writing it, and thank you for spending a little time with us. Oh my gosh, Zach. So great to be here, man. Thanks for having me. All right, that's it for today's Zach Losho. Thank you to Moldekil. Thank you to Keith O'Brien by his book Heartland. Thanks as always to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. And thanks to you all for listening to and/or watching the Zach Losho. We'll be back later this week, likely on Thursday with our second episode of the week, who knows maybe Joe Lenturne will have signed by then. Maybe not. We'll see you all then. 21 or over in president select states for Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas, Starkisino, or 18 and over in president in DC or Wyoming. Gamla Problem, call 1-800-100-Gamla, or 1-800-My Reset, call 1-888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghealth.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplinema.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 1-877-8 hope and why, or text hope and why in New York, for Louisiana, call 1-877-770-7867. [BLANK_AUDIO]