Meaningless Mutilation Murders - Farmington, New Mexico

This week, in Farmington, New Mexico, a series of strange murders, all very brutal but very different from each other, happen over the course of a couple years until a tow truck driver's phone found near a murder scene leads to a serial killer and his two accomplices. Welcome to Small Town Murder. Hello everybody and welcome back to Small Town Murder. Yay. Yeah, indeed, Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Petrigalo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wiseman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. And another crazy wild. I mean, really awful. Just bad addition of stuff. It's so funny. It's a bad story. It's been so much time here. This in Farmington, New Mexico. Yeah, for work, right? Yeah. For APS, yes, for the electric company. Don't say that. Well, that's where you worked for years. Fuck them. You're not working for them anymore. Jimmy worked for them for years. Fucking didn't do half his work. They still pay him. It doesn't matter. They can't do a damn thing about it now. So eat Dick's APS. Here we are. Now, feel good to be able to do. Put that out on Netflix. Suck a dick APS. Holy shit. That is fantastic. I love it. I'm so happy for you right now. That's great. Yeah. Fuck you. I mean, thank you. I mean, thank you so much for years of gainful employment. So we'll get into all of that. And the Farmington and everything about that. Before we do, definitely head over to shut up and give me murder.com. Get your tickets to live shows. Everybody also merchandise. Everything you could want from shower curtains to coffee cups to skateboards. In addition to that, get your tickets. September the 18th Milwaukee at the PAPS. We love the PAPS. Great venue for us and for the audience and for everything. Can't wait to go there. And then September 19th. Many Apple is at the state there. Get your tickets right now. Minneapolis Milwaukee. Those seats are going fast. You want to get those tickets pretty soon. Minneapolis. You better start getting some more tickets. Get in there. You better figure it out. Yeah. And then October 3rd Dallas October 16th San Jose. October 17th Sacramento. November 13th. Harrytown. November 14th. Boston. So get your asses in there and come see us. Shut up and give me murder. Murder.com. It's going to be awesome. We can't wait. In addition to that, you definitely want to listen to our other two shows. Crime in sports. Which you don't have to like sports to like. Trust me. And also your stupid opinions. Because who doesn't like reading terrible reviews of things. That's wonderful. And making fun of the reviewers. So check those out. Get yourself Patreon. My friends. Patreon.com/crimeinsports. Just like the name of that other show you should listen to. That's where you get all the bonus material. Anybody five dollars a month or above, you get everything we put out. Yeah. Including as soon as you subscribe, you're going to get almost 400 back bonus episodes. So many. You'll get those. That's like a whole other, you know, whole other feed to binge. And then you get new ones every other week. One crime in sports and one small town murder. And you get them all everybody. And this week, which you're going to get for crime in sports. We're going to talk about that the Christian power team. There are these guys in the on TV in the 90s that would do Street Street pizza. What is it called? A feats of strength. Super feats. It's calling peaks of strength with feats of strength where they would like bend a rebar. Or rip a phone book or like bench press 500 pounds and then scream. Thank you. Thank you. Jesus. They would do all of that. Turns out it was more. Thank you. Anabolic steroids. And also there's some scandal. It happens. Some tricks. And for small town murder, it is internet salad time. We're going to go all over the internet and find everything that we find entertaining to make fun of. Except for politics because we feel like you probably get enough of that everywhere else. So we'll fill in the gas. So in between. It's a lot of fun. hatredon.com/crimein sports. And you get everything we put out all the shows. Crime and sports. You're stupid opinion. Small town murder. All add free with your Patreon. Add free. Add free with your Patreon. And you get a shout out at the end of the show too. You'll miss your pronounce your name. All sorts of different ways. That said, disclaimer time. Hey everybody, work comedians. Fried so. This is a comedy show. Fried so. We're going to make jokes. And there's going to be dead people because it'd be a really weird show if it was called small town murder. And it had no dead people. So that's how it works. You go, why does that work? That sounds awful. Why would you guys do that? Well, to me, I think it's a little easier way to digest the murder. To get some jokes around it rather than the odd murder porn way. Some people go about it. And that's fine if that's what you're into. But I mean, and then her head was removed from her body. And so I'm a little creeped out while scary music plays. No, no, no. We try to put a little humor in it. We don't do, though. When we go out of our way not to do is we don't make fun of the victims or the victims' families. Why is that, James? Because we're assholes. But. But we're not scumbags. See how that works. It's very easy. It's a very easy thing to do there. So that's all it is. There's plenty other stuff to make fun of. Small towns. Who cares? We're all from somewhere that's worthy of being made fun of. Maybe a police force. So let's a murderer go free for years. Kill more people. Maybe a murderer will make fun of. Because. Fuck them. And what recourse do we have other than a fun of them? We're comedians. We can't go to the jail and. You know. Get their hoodlums taken away. They won't let us get their ramen taken away. All we can do is make fun of them. So. If that sounds good to you, you're going to hear a crazy show. If you think true time and comedy should never, ever go together, we might not be for you. But we might be. So. Yeah. I would, I would check it out. And either way, no complaining later. Or you'll end up on your stupid opinions. That said, I think it's time everybody to sit back. What do you say here? Let's all clear the lungs. Arms to the sky. And let's all shout. Shout out. Forgive me, murder. Let's do this everybody. Okay. Okay. Let's go on a trip. Shall we? Oh my. There we go. We're going to a place Jimmy is familiar with. By the way, Jimmy hates New Mexico. It's. I do. It's his least favorite state. Um, this is farming to New Mexico. Yeah. This is one of the reasons I hate it. You've been forced to send to me. So horrible. That's what I hear from the reviews that will get into it a little while. It is horrible. It's in northwestern New Mexico. So close to the kind of to that northern Arizona. The four corners. The four corners and all of that. Uh, it's about three hours to Albuquerque. Mm-hmm. About three and a half hours to Santa Fe. And six hours to our last New Mexico episode. Hondo, New Mexico, which was episode five 17. Jesus Christ. This is seven hundred and one. Yeah. It's been a long time. Yeah. That was slaughter at bloody ranch, which I believe is the one. That was the ranch. I think Sam Donaldson owned. Wasn't that the. I believe that's true. Yeah. It was so long ago. I can't even remember. So that's pretty crazy. I'm in county. Uh, area code 505. Nickname. And I, I really couldn't figure out why. Uh, but it is called baseball town, USA. What? Not Cooper's town. Not, you know, any of the plenty of these other places that. Farmington. Farmington, new map. Baseball town, USA. Okay. I have no idea why. Because. No clue. You'd rather get hit out of here. That's makes no sense. Um, now a little bit of history of this town. Obviously it was. And still is very much populated by Native Americans through centuries and all that kind of thing. Um, Spanish and American mineral prospecting happened in this area. Yeah. But there wasn't a lot of permanent settlements because you've been there. It's not. That's a place you look at and go. Setting, setting up shop. Can't wait. Lay the foundation, everybody. I know where I'm moving. Yeah. There's three rivers that come through here. So it was originally known as Junction City. Yeah. Junction City. But in 1901, Junction City, but in 1901 it was named Farmington and incorporated and they had 548 people. March 18th, 1950. And we might do a bonus episode on this. Farmington was the site of a mass UFO sighting in which over half the town's population reported seeing large saucers in the sky flying at rapid speeds. This was, this was like 5,000 people said they saw this. This wasn't. Two drunk guys, you know, in the woods and they also, you know, we're like, fuck and take an ether and shit. Like this, this is 5,000 normal people saw. Oh my god. So we got to do it. We're going to do a bonus episode. They saw saucers or light. They saw saucers, large saucers in the sky flying at rapid speeds. Was this at daytime? I need to know every night. Probably night time. Right. Day time. You can see exactly what it is. Yeah. Yeah. In 1967, part of a joint US government El Paso electric operation, an underground nuclear detonation occurred 50 miles east of Farmington. And apparently this was the pilot project of Operation Plough Share, codenamed project gas buggy. Jesus. Fuck. Was an attempt to fracture a large volume of underground bedrock to make more natural gas available for extraction by wells. We set off nuclear weapons to try to get more gas out of the ground. Doesn't that, doesn't that seem like I would ignite the gas? You know what? I'm not going to get into the science of it because that seems dangerous. It seems well above our pay grade number one and number two, 50 miles. That's not far enough. That's what I'm thinking. Maybe that's the problem with this town. Maybe there's some fallout. Right. There got to be some radiation leaking out. I don't know what's going on. That would explain a whole lot. Again, we're not scientists in case you're wondering, it's a true crime podcast told by two scientists reviews in this town. Let's find out what other people think. We know Jimmy thinks it sucks. Maybe other people like it. Let's find out. - Fucking way somebody likes it anyways. - It's got 3.5 stars on niche, which is not great. And that's like I said, you wouldn't eat Chinese food if it was 3.5 stars. And that's with a lot of reviews too. Here's five stars. I love this town. - Wow. - Love it. - Farmington doesn't need any changes to be honest. - Perfect. - They've never stayed in a hotel here. - Perfect. This town is filled with uniqueness and diversity. Everyone here is always nice and greeting. - Okay. - Are they nice? - I disagree with that. Everybody there was very nice. - Oh, at least they're friendly. That's good. But if they're not friendly, no one's ever stopping there again. - But I've said it. And if you stay in a hotel in Farmington, ask to see it before you pay. - Oh, I bet. - Oh man. I've never, I've spent my whole per diem on the weekend. Paying for a room, getting into it and going nope and going to another one. - I think you're replacing an M with an H also. - There. - Oh, 100%. - I think there's a lot of motels here. - There's not a lot of hotels. - No, I wouldn't think. Here is one star. Okay. Farmington is an Indian town with high crime and little to do. - I didn't know there was that, but I'm kidding. - Okay. Farmington is one of only 10 metro areas in the Southwest US rated as a most dangerous place to live in the US. - How dare they call that metro? - Metro. He doesn't say what metro is that? - There's nothing metropolitan about this. There's very metropolitan, you know, it's cosmopolitan, but we're still, I will say. It's number 33 out of 50 US metro areas rated most dangerous. Poor school, high crime, horrible local government, just a sad, dirty town. Only good thing I can say about it is people are friendly. - They really are. - I mean, they have to be. - Yeah, and then they can find cup of coffee. I'll say that too. - They're fighting with each other because they're miserable. And then a visitor comes in and they're like, "Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up." Hey y'all, how you doing? Yeah, come on in, yeah, no. This is fragile, my best friend. They're not from around here. They don't know that we hate each other. - They had knives out two minutes ago, and they're like, "Shut up, shut up. Here comes a car without estate plates. Everybody shut the fuck up. They're from Utah. Stop. - They got Arizona plates, everybody. - One star, we have it all here. Math, crack, severe alcoholism, homelessness, and an almost non-existent police force. - They said that. They said that. The housing is still priced as if the oil field is booming, but hasn't been booming in years. And did I mention that's the only major source of income here? I hope you like working at McDonald's and dealing with belligerent, racist, drunken people all the time, just to live in an apartment with six other people. - That's stranger. - That's what I mean. Seems like there was no choice. They just got assigned five roommates with six roommates. I've lived here most of my life and I've watched it go from bad to worse. It's unfortunate because the landscape is so unique and beautiful. But the ignorant, horrible people who live here make it unbearable. We're also next to towns with some of the highest sexual assault levels in the country. Then all caps in this sense. Don't ever take your eyes off your children here. - What? - Jesus Christ. Just peddled to the metal if you got kids in the-- - Yeah. - And we boast some of the highest DWI, DUI fatalities in the state. Most of the people here have no license in six plus DUIs, over six. Wow. And you have six roommates in six DUIs. Sounds like a very balanced thing. Our justice system is a joke and half the cops won't take down the meth labs. I can't wait to leave this hellhole. - I didn't know there was meth there, but I mean the-- - The Southwest. - Yeah. - When you're pulling to town, you know, what do you do? I mean, I'd probably have to do drugs to be here. - Yeah. If you see sand, there's meth there, period. If you see dirt like that. Like every Arizona is a giant meth lab. And so is New Mexico. And so-- - And that area. - Southern Utah and Southern Colorado. - Yeah, that four corners area. You could drive a 20 mile radius circle. It never changes. The landscape is the same. - That's exactly the same. People in this town, 46,696. It's a lot. - That's shocking. - It's gone up a lot since like 2002. They've gotten a lot more people. More women than men, 50.9% women. Median age here is low, 34.7. That usually has something to do with outdoor jobs for the most part. - Yeah, dangerous shit. - Yeah, family in this town. It's about 45% married, which is below the national average. Higher people, more people have single with children, also here, but not a lot more. Race of this town, it is 45.5% white, 1.2% black, 0.8% Asian, 24.5% Native American, which is the rest of the country. It's like 0.7% in the whole United States. That's a lot, and then 24.9% Hispanic as well. - And you have to drive through native reservations to get here too. - Oh yeah, yeah, like everywhere. - Window rocks or something? I mean, there's something rock. There's a several rocks that you have to go through to get there. Four, yeah, there's slip rock around here, I know. - Ship rock. - Ship rock, there you go. That's in the story. 41.3% of the people here are religious, which is below the national average. They looked around and they're like, "There's no God, no God made this." - Talked it. - Don't blame God for this shit. Never mind. - This flex is hell on earth. - And it is like spread around too. There's no dominant religion or anything. Unemployment right here, a little bit high. - Really? - But the median household income's a little bit low, so that's not great. $56,045 a year is household, and it's 69,000, the rest of the country. Cost of living, that makes it real important. 100 is regular power average. Here it's 80. So. - That's not great. I mean, it's helpful, but it's not great. - It's not great. The housing is the low thing here, which I guess that's good. median home cost here, $216,100, which is too much, but also cheaper than everywhere else. If we have convinced you with all of our propping up of this place, that the only place on earth for you is Farming to New Mexico, you're in luck. Because we have for you the Farming to New Mexico, real estate report. Okay, your average two bedroom rental here, $1,050. Okay, so that's lower than the national average, but again, it seems high. Here is a three bedroom, two bath, 980 square foot, ugly trailer. It's a trailer, but they have put somehow green wood paneling on the outside. I've never seen a trailer with wood paneling on it, with like, you know, siding. It's got siding, it's got wood siding on it. And it's green. I wonder if it's that that tongue and groove channel shit? - I don't know, it's not helping either way. Whatever's cheapest, I would say is what it is. Based on the inside that the stove in the place looks like it's in an apartment in 1982. It's horrifying. It is no square, no land, no acreage or anything like that. 980 square feet, 39,999 bucks for that. - And probably a lot right? - Lot fees too, yep. This next one is a depressing looking house on the outside. Inside's not too bad. The outside, it just sits on this lot that is just barren and it's just ugly man. It is ugly scenery. Three bedroom, three bath, technically a tea bowl for each and every beehole. 1904 square feet, 0.29 acres of dirt and gravel. - Leave that. - $200,000 for that. - Wow. - And inside, it could use some updating. But nice wood, it's got really nice hardwood floors throughout that look really like really nice wood. - Interesting. - Which is very strange. And it says it's being sold as is, which is never good. Next up, three bedroom six bath. That's a tea bowl for each and every beehole. And some more for the neighbors, 5,690 square feet. - A three six. - Big ol' house, three bedroom six bath. You can tell it's new work as they started doing that. Five acres of desert looks like you get here, but the inside's very nicely done. The kitchen's very large, it's very fancy. It looks like a little resort is what it looks like. One million, $775,000. - Almost two million dollars. - To live in Farmington. Farmington, fuck you. - Wow. Well, luckily if you do spend that kind of money, there are things to do here. So let's find out what those are. Okay, the New Mexico Core Fest. - Core? - Core Fest, like hardcore. - Oh. - Yeah, a metal axe, hardcore axe. - Okay, got it. - Yeah, shit like that. This is the, I'm gonna read you the 2025 lineup here. It says that it features a lineup of heavy metal and hardcore axe from across the four corners region. So there, these are local people. These are desert hardcore axe. They didn't even bring anybody from LA or anything. - There's a black box. - To make a festival? - Apparently so. Here are the bands that they had. Elite Alliance, which is an Arizona band, it says. Blood of Lilith. Lilith. - Like Frasier's wife. - Lilith. - Here, Frasier's wife. Lilith there. Grave of the monuments, okay? Taj THJ, Taj of one less. - I don't even know what that means. - The fuck are, stop trying to be so fucking interesting. - That's, see, the next one is so much better. See, they're trying to be all Taj of one less. Like it's the next one, just dry heave. That's so much better. That's so much more descriptive. - Right on the nose. - Dry heave, cinematica. I like this one. Decapitation of a new day. - Gonna cut the new day's head off. anticipation of a new day. will go decapitation in in Amicus. I don't know who knows in Amicus. One last summer, I guess before you're dead because all these have death themes. I do this last one. Yeah. Mirari, M-I-R-A-R-I, like, I guess Ferrari, but with a with less with less hours, broken chains and falling fire will be there. Also. Yeah. There's also a four corners metal festival as well. I don't know what's going on with this area, but it's all metal. Yeah. Native Americans do love metal music. And if Osfest skipped, Albuquerque came here. I know. It's very sweet. Native Americans love hardcore metal music. Okay. All of them, what do you think? It's I realize it sounds awful. But if they skipped Albuquerque for Osfest, they would come here. And then Osfest here would be a giant population of Native Americans here. Yeah. Yeah. But if they skipped here and went there, I guess they watched it. I don't know. I didn't go down. There's a few bads here. There's a lot of bads. Most of them have names like class violence, obliteration, million dead, hell thrown, you know, metal shit. So there's that crime rate in this town. What we are interested in here, property crime is about one third above the national average. So. And then violent crime, murder, a robbery, and of course, assault. The Mount Rushmore of crime is about 50% above the national average. So it's it's high here. Pretty dangerous. There's some shit going down. That said, let's dive right in. Let's talk about some murder. Let's go. Okay. June 7th, 2000. Let's start there. Oh, fairly recent. Yeah. 26 years. But I mean, it's not like black and white times. It's not, you know, the 70s here. We can all picture 2000, I think. Now it's a Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday morning, mid morning, you know, 10, 30, 11 o'clock. There's an electrical line inspector. Jimmy's like, he's got the wand. He's doing us all thing. He's working the rural electrification grid south of Kirtland near twin mounds. Yeah. Okay. He's driving slowly along a dirt road looking for a particular pole. He notices off the side of the road. This guy is very upset. He's looking for a pole mind you. Yeah. Supposed to be looking up, motherfucker. Yeah. I don't know why you're looking at the ground at the dirt, but he notices off the road. What looks like? Tell me if you'd notice. You've driven an electric truck through areas like this. Would you notice what looks like a trail of blood drops in the dust? No. And also I would not follow that. No, I don't care what that is. I don't know what animals do to each other with people do to each other, not my business. But in this area, hey, yeah, you find a blood trail. There's probably a family of coyotes dining on something. You don't want to see it. You want no part of that shit. No, this guy not only somehow notices blood drops in a dust trail. He's somehow. And he said at first, he thought, oh, I bet somebody poached a deer because there's a, I guess the four corners area has a lot of problem with off-season deer hunting around here. They do? Apparently so. So, you know, he said he's seen this before. So he's a trail of blood in a dirt road is, you know, he's seen it before because people are poaching the deer. So this guy, in addition, they're poaching deer is what he thinks. So he's looking for a pole. He's not work. He's looking for a pole. Seas blood drops things. That's probably a deer got poached. He says, better get out and make sure. Make sure. Which is again, put yourself in this guy's place. I'm driving. I'm not getting out. If it's not a deer, whatever made that blood trail is now going to try to make me a blood trail too. Yeah. So I'm out of here going. There's got to be a list of numbers that you call when you suspect that, right? Not my problem. Turn it in and roll. It's not the electric company guy's problem, probably. Probably not up to her. So the trail leads off the road through low brush. And he comes across a human body. That's his fault. Which is a you, you, you, you begged for this, sir. You asked for it. He definitely asked for whoever's family. This is, this is a great thing. But for him, that's so great. It's an adult female partially undressed. Now, the body is covered with just kind of some sticks and some brush and some, you know, there's not a lot of, yeah, not a lot of a foliage out there. There's not a lot of vegetation. There's not like, you can't go break a branch off the oak tree and lay it on top or anything like that. It look like basically the way you just throw some shit that you found on top of a body suit. It wouldn't be super visible if you were just looking over the area quickly. But it's obvious that, you know, you can see it in daylight from a few feet away that it's a body under some, under some sticks and some, you know, some leaves. And so, and the body was leaking all the way to the final destination. It was well dragged or carried because it's dropped. So, right. It had been carried and dropped there. So, the electric company guy sees this and goes, "Oh, this is a way outside my purview here." For sure. It calls the San Juan County Sheriff's Office and deputies arrived. And they secure the scene. They get the sheriff and everybody, all hands on deck here. Because this is a, a fresh body. This is not a, hasn't been here a while. The body is still warm to the touch, they said. Oh my god. Like, it's not, you know, fully cold yet even. So, if somebody put the body there, they heard the electric guy rolling up. Or it's a little loud because it's warm out. It's June in New Mexico. So, it's warm still and that would have kept the body a little warmer. But not only that, there are three sets of footprints that they find around there too. And I would assume four, but one is the electric company guy, which is another reason why you should probably just, if you suspect anything, call a cop, let them look at it. Because otherwise, you could be fucking up a crime scene, which is not good. They also find fresh tire tracks in soft sand. Okay. Like, that's something. They find a still bloody knife thrown off in the bushes. Jesus. Yeah. Also, they find a, this is crazy. Near the road, they then find a bloody sledgehammer. Two, yeah. Two murder weapons. Now they found, and I liked that the guy didn't see a bloody sledgehammer, but he gave some drops of blood. Some of the droplets. That's crazy. Then they find articles of women's clothing kind of strewn about as well here and there. So, they're like, this is obviously a horrible scene. Yeah. And it looks like from what the cops say, they feel like whoever did this, did this before it got light outside, because it looks like in the dark, it would look like you hid your stuff well, but in the light, it's pretty obvious to see. But in the dark, you'd go, okay, I don't see anything. It's great. So the medical investigator here shows up and starts doing some work on the body here. Turns out this woman has been stabbed in the chest and bludgeoned in the head. Okay, cause of death was blunt force head trauma, and they assume that's from the sledgehammer. Sure. The chest stab was a contributing factor, but not her main cause of death. Frenzied. Frenzied is what, yeah, multiple weapons. They're thinking is this multiple weapons, is this multiple offenders, multiple attackers. We don't know. So they do get three sets of shoe impressions at the scene, which mean at least two people and the victim. They said. So they figure there's two weapons and two sets of footprints besides the victims. This is probably we're talking about, you know, two attackers here. And they find the tire here, the treads on the tire marks they find, they find three different sets of tire treads, which is interesting, but not from three different cars. Right. It's just a one car with three different tire treads on it. Yeah, just somebody who don't break laws when you when you're when you're living like that. No, that's you can't live like that. You better have a like a buttoned up new Honda Accord or something. Yeah, just calm. All four same size camera or some shit. They're all tires that match. So then they find on the dirt near the road, they find a cell phone. Okay. They're like, okay, they find out it does not belong to the victim. Okay. As they find out who it belongs to. And it's a guy named Charles Bergen, B-E-R-G-I-N. Yeah. He works for Bloomfield Towing. So they call him and he picked up the you know, picked up the phone and they said, yes, I was out there last night. I was near 12 pounds. I had a job in the pre-dawn hours and lost my phone out there. So pretty happy. You found it as a matter of fact. Can I have that back? He said, yeah, he said, I, I towed out a Ford aspire out of the soft sand, which is a bad car. Oh, bad, bad, bad. It looks like a Ford aspire looks like one of those little tikes cars you get for your kids that have the red ones with the yellow roof on it. That's what looks like. Imagine if you made that for an adult and said, yeah, and I get in that and put three separate tires on it. But the thing is those, those pieces of shit, I think they came with three separate. I think they do. Yeah, they just said this is what you get there. Yeah. We'll put a good year of fucking. Sorry. There's like junkyard parts in the engine, but in there, that's how we make brand new. There's junkyard parts in it. That's what I mean. They come right off the line like that. Yeah. There's no help in it. Um, so he said, yeah, I was getting a, not only a sport aspire out of the soft sand, but also another vehicle. There was a pickup there. They also towed out of the fucking sand. And he said, I could subscribe. I could give you described the people involved. He said, I can give you names as well. I have names. He said, I got their names. They paid me in cash. That'll be helpful. And they said, well, what the fuck were they? Yeah. And he said, well, Bobby Fry and Leslie Eng. Eng is ENGH, not like Charles Eng. Well, weird. You know, the other serial killer. This is Leslie Eng. Um, so not Asian. That's what I'm saying. Um, so now let's talk about Robert Frye here. Quick. Bobby Frye. Robert Ray Frye. Um, name of Bobby is what he goes by. Born August 18, 1973. Okay. Um, so he's, you know, 27 at this point. Um, he's from farming to New Mexico. This is area. Um, he is the last of four kids. He has one full sister and two step siblings from his father's first marriage that live with them. Um, dad had been married before. His dad's name is James. His mom's name is Gloria. Now, this is an intact family. Wow. You know, there's no craziness at home that we know of. Gloria works for the San Juan County probation department. She worked for years for them. Uh, she was worked for the, she is the adult misdemeanor administrator, which as she is the, basically, she processes every adult misdemeanor case in the county. Fascinating. So anybody who fucks up, she knows who they are, basically, um, a minimal one, uh, a small, a small, disorderly conducts. Yeah. Fefs, you know, indecent exposure. I'm sure it's like that. Yeah. Yeah, in a bar fight, whatever the looks of the days, he's non felonies. Um, so she's been there a long time. Good at her job. Knows all the locals, you know, all those illegal system. A little bit about Bobby. Um, here is an incident that gets brought up a lot and will be brought up a lot. Um, in every profile of him, um, the Radford University psychological profile, the, uh, several books, forensic files, all this thing. They all mentioned the same incident. Now there's no proof of this incident, like, you know, there's no pictures, but this is like family lore that everyone is accepted as fact. Oh, I'm on the edge of my seat. We have no reason to be whatever, uh, to, to do not, to doubt it. Um, age three, this happens to Bobby, okay? Um, it happens to Bobby. It is known forever more as the ketchup incident. All right. There we go. Um, he's three's in the care of a babysitter. Now his grandmother just died within the month at three, but I mean, you don't even know a debt as a three. Yeah. No, I mean, barely know your grandma. You barely know anybody. You're three. You don't know anybody. You know, your mom pretty well. Everybody else is just some weird peripheral figure. But so it's very strange. So he's being babysat. Like I said, at three, you don't even usually tell three year olds when somebody dies for a while. Cause what's the point? They can't, they don't know what that is. They can't process that. They don't understand. They don't have any reference of death. Yeah. My great grandmother died when I was like four and they all told me I had to go to the funeral, but that we're Italian more, but death is a more big fascination with these people. So I, I, yeah, my great grandmother, I was three, I think. And yeah, I don't, they didn't even tell me. I mean, I don't know later on. I mean, obviously she's dead. I've never seen her. Hey, where's great grandma? Well, I remember. Have a great grandma too. You do. Guess what? I still remember them jumping in the casket. I might keep on screaming and Italian jumping in the casket. It was wild. Me and my cousin were freaked out. We were both four. We were like, this is crazy. What is happening? So anyway, somehow he knows all about death, I guess, apparently. And he's in the care of a babysitter. Now, the babysitter has some sons also, okay? Yeah. Who are older than three. And they thought they would play a joke on the three year old, which, yeah, playing a joke on a three year old is hide their fruit snacks for four minutes. That's a joke for a three year old. There's no, they don't have much of a sense of humor. Three year old's, really. I mean, you put them in a closet and hold the door shut or whatever. Jesus, that's just mean. Is that what you're doing a three year old? That's what we did to three year olds. Jesus. This is a nephews and cousins. Yeah. No, my aunt used to, my aunt, who by the way, is the sweetest person alive. Yeah. It's so nice. He used to torment me when I was a fucking kid. Yeah. At three years old, she was making me and my cousin, Jesse, eat ants, telling us the black ones were chocolate and the red ones were strawberry. That's nice. Having us like, tried to get us to eat dog food and like, just all sorts of mean shit when they were handcuff our right, right wrist. He was a cop. Yeah. That's it. My aunt was like, he's an adult. What the fuck? My aunt was like, she's like nine years older than me. She was a teenager. So it made more, she just wanted us to leave her alone. That makes sense. Handcuff your right wrist to your left ankle behind your back. Okay. That guy I want in prison right now. Because imagine when he does the suspects still. Not anymore. He's a long one. Good. Well, it's like 75 hopefully something will come up and we'll put that guy away because he's done bad things to people. I guarantee it if you think so. That's awful. That's fucking dope. My family's trash. Sorry. My at least I will give you a huge pass. You were 14. You didn't know any better. You're fine. You were 13. You're good. Yeah. This is crazy. We're trash. I don't know. She did types and hospitals. We're trash. She tied my cousin Jesse up one time with bungee cords and shit and like bandanas and stuff. Yeah. And then I went and told my grandmother who was outside and her little garden. And I said, grandma, grandma, she tied Jesse up my grandmother yelled at me. He said, what the hell do you want me to do about it? My you go figure it out yourself. And that was that was it. I was like, sorry dude. I went back up there some I was like, sorry, I told grandma she had everything to do. And I just like, she's not at it. She got mad for bothering her. So anyway, the trick they play on this kid is to all of them, they they smeared ketchup all over themselves, which sounds really sticky. Sounds horny and pretended to be dead. Oh, for fuck's with blood all over them. So he walks in and sees his babysitter and her teenage sons lying on the floor covered in blood. Some are skilled in pretending to be dead exactly, but a three-year-old. So that's the story. And apparently this is he always brings it up as this really fucked him up good. Really? Yeah. I mean, come on. How much ketchup? How much should you have in the house to cover all of yours? It had to be just a little bit on the face. But to a three-year-old, any amount of what is a lot. So in school, he's basically a fat kid who gets picked on and then bullies people afterwards. Yeah, that's how they see evolution. It's a cycle. Yeah. If you ever gets big enough to fight to pick on other people, he's going to. Yeah. So that's basically what he does here. There's no like documented. There's no like sexual abuse. His parents are in alcoholics. There's none of that shit. The house is pretty stable. And that was with a babysitter. That wasn't even that. No, no, no. CPS never got called or anything. It's, you know, one of those deals. His handwriting sucks. Okay. He's left-handed. His handwriting sucks, which a lot of kids handwriting sucks. Mine was shitty, though. Mine was right for so long. Really? Stop doing it and start typing everything. See me right now. Holy fuck. So embarrassing. Mine I was always like going and trying to go 10 times faster than I could. So he's always like scribbly because I was always looking at caps for a long time. Oh, that's weird. So that's yeah. So the school decides to force him to right-right-handed now, which is what they used to do like in Catholic school in the 50s. They tried to get my mother to right-right-handed. She's left-handed with the Catholic schools. So they tried to get, yeah, because they left that's evil. That's satanic if you're left-handed. That's the wrong side. Exactly. So that's what they do now. I don't know if that's what these people are doing, but either where they're like, they forced him to right-right-handed. Basically, he got like seas and dees in school. Family and teachers just great. They say he's an average to above average IQ. He's not dumb. He's not smart. He's just kind of there. You know, he reads and writes and does all that. He's just fat and lazy and pissed off all the time. That's sure. That's the crux of it. He saw a school psychologist at some point in here, which is good. That's a start and didn't usually happen back then. But that's good. We don't know for how long or if it helped anything. In his teen years, he gets more into his later teens. He gets into kind of fantasy stuff because he gets picked on a lot. He's, you know, that's what he does. So he gets into Dungeons and Dragons, which is, you know, the refuge for people who are looking for something to go to. When this reality sucks, I'll make my own. Yeah. And usually the Dungeons and Dragons kids are usually the really nice kids. They're usually really smart too. Inclusive. Yeah. They'll, anybody's allowed to play. We need another anyway all the time. Yeah. They're very smart usually too. Sometimes a little nerdy, but smart. Usually you get the smart kids playing that dumb kids can't follow that. It's too complicated. Yeah, you got to have an open mind too and dumb kids. Generally don't yeah, there's a lot to remember. There's a lot of things and rules and this one's got this and it's eight points for that And you know, even the dice would be confusing for the die. Oh God. How many is it 10 12 somewhere than that? I camera I've used to buy them 20 20 side it there's 20 side in ones. I know that yeah, I used to get him for my daughter Old things you place a bunch of different ones too. I think there's eight side it obviously. I'm sure I don't know what the standard like you know Oh the standard thrillers is our D&D dice. Yeah, I don't know what that is He also played vampire the masquerade Okay, which is another game that game. I know nothing about I had to look it up It's apparently set in the quote world of darkness Where players portray vampires navigating political intrigue political intrigue the fuck we really got to get Johnson elected in the As the fucking This cabinet's bullshit. This is great. We got to get Johnson elected as the city's new aldermen or else really we're in a lot of trouble So put on your fangs and let's get out there in the campaign trail Political intrigue some doors Yeah, personal hunger or personal horror and hunger in a gothic punk modern world Created in 1991 What a weird game sounds weird. His favorite band is the misfits which if you went to high school in the 90s You've seen seven trillion misfits shirts, you know So that's pretty cool one of the cooler t-shirts of all time. That's date for for a You know band who didn't ever sell have a platinum album. They sold a fuck load of shirts Fuck load of shirts man and like every Spencer's and every mall in America had five misfits shirts And I mean that people it's just it's probably just because the band name is fucking rad Well, they have that cool logo, too, or the face. It's fucking nailed it. It's pretty cool. They did a good job with that. Yeah so Anyway, he's Bobby is just kind of this kid he's playing D&D's kind of doing things like that He tells bullshit stories as like a lot of teenagers do Well, he's also in a in a land of make believe and he Climates reality. So he's gonna create his own reality and usually when people get picked on a lot too They create this these stories about how tough they are and so he starts telling stories about Getting in knife fights with people and stuff like that. He's a fact that it plays D&D He's not getting a knife fights with anybody. No point in his life in high school He's a knife fight. He's getting stabbed to death. Yeah, he's tell star. Hopefully his fat layers will save him at this point Stories about putting people in the hospital and you know Being a badass. He likes telling all these stories about being a badass. No one believes him at all Okay, Bobby's telling stories again. Whatever. Here he goes He barely graduates high school, which is still better than I did. I didn't graduate. I got a GD So hey good for you. You finished I barely graduated. So I get it. There you go at 18 He volunteers with the local fire department Okay, and by the way, and he has an incident that is he and his sisters and mother talk about But I don't know if it's documented anymore else We're apparently he responded to a car accident scene, which that's what volunteer firefighters do Yeah, and he had to comfort a dying accident victim So he was holding someone while they were covered in blood and dying and that I said that fucked him all up as much as the catch-up incident It'll be fine. Go to the light. Yeah, it's all back. Yeah Now this is 1991. He's 18 He starts to drink and do drugs to at this point He's going to be in D and he's volunteer firefighting gonna give himself kept got kicked off that fire Well, I'm probably not I don't know. I don't know if they probably need fireman around there. They probably don't care Volunteers though. I think oh, I think everybody has to be a volunteer right in that come in the community If it's a volunteer force when it's a volunteer force, I think you have to volunteer Well, yeah, I think a volunteer force, but I mean I think in a small community Yeah, at least tasked with having to yeah, that no no, no, you don't have to be a volunteer fire But no one can force you to go to an accident scene and fucking clean up the debris No one can force you to do that. No, you have to volunteer to be a fireman I'm not paying for it and then also having to volunteer too. I pay for it You know what I mean like right? Small communities where they don't where they don't pay for it where they don't have you have to volunteer still you have no I mean, but you don't have to volunteer exactly you have to but you don't have to Yeah, we've all been told me no, you know, volunteering no voluntarily only volunteering So it's there's also an accusation at this point that he raped a woman around now around age 18 But that never really gets substantiated and we don't know what actually happens But there's no charges no charges nothing like that So he enlists in the Navy So I want a nothing going on here and what he's also doing it looks like is looking for things to join To be a part of I'm going to be a part of the firefighters. That's a group now They have to accept me right I'm going to go in the Navy where we're all. Yeah, it's a bunch of people that don't Kick you out exactly and he's a big guy at this point, too. He's six one. He's 250 pounds. He's a big old guy He gets sent to Guam And then he came home here After a while the Navy kicks him out dishonorable discharge ends up getting That's the way to get kicked out. Yeah, that'll do it So that's about it. So he gets home from the Navy now he's been Kicked out of the Navy. I mean he wasn't there for five years or anything like that. He's home within two years and He starts telling stories again. He loves to tell stories about what a bad ass he is Now he's telling everybody in the bars around for a Farmington that he's what You know what he's gonna say A war hero navy seal. Oh, yeah, babe That's right. Yeah, like a navy whale I'm a navy seal like he could make it through the training Number one, and he couldn't even make it through the basic program never mind The the buds training and all that just a whole separate thing. It's crazy. So Now he would tell all this shit The friends would always say that nobody believed him They all were like one friend called it his flights of fancy. This is what he does. He tells stories. He's full of shit. He does all that Now another friend of his Larry Hudson who knows Bobby pretty well Said that he liked to perform in public basically. He'd tell stories. Everybody knew he has a big knife collection and stuff like that He tries to play you know Johnny badass over here And so they all kind of just take his seal claims grain assault They all laugh at it when he leaves the room. They're like this fucking jerk off every time That's that's who he is though. He just likes to be this big guy big person Now the knives he has Okay, he names his knives, uh-huh like evil names Yeah, if you name your knives, that's bizarre. I'm worried about you other than this one This this is the big one. This is a soup. This one's fucking sharp. I call this the fucking sharp one. Be careful with this one Yeah, this one do not touch that plate even to rub it backward against the blade Just don't touch it So don't touch he had one that he called baby Bubba the butcher knife. Oh Jesus. That's gonna go well So interesting he he owned more the in his little collection. He had more than a dozen knives From a you know kind of fancy little jack knives that are like ornate to a huge bowie knife with a big Fucking blade That's the one he called Bubba the butcher knife baby Bubba the butcher knife That one we knife. It's a booey knife a big Rambo knife Wow, and he told all his friends because he carried that one a lot and he told all his friends And you know Bubba's not made for cutting up animals Bubba's made for cutting human flesh Oh Jesus. I don't know what specific differences in the manufacturing process you'd have to put in to make it go from Cutting a deer to gotten people, but it seems like similar things probably yeah, I can't imagine it metal Yeah, I can't imagine the density of Either are that much different. No, and unless it's a medical supply place I don't know who's what manufacturers going now this lives this knives for chopping up people This is here's our hunting collection now we have our Our vivisection people collection that we're gonna have here. That's gonna be perfect Here's our our our feral water vermin section. That's that's for those Um, so he would brag about how he'd Use this to cut people open and barfights and shit, you know all that shit and all of his friends are like sure Okay, no problem Bobby whatever So he's back in Farmington now after the Navy telling stories talking about his knives being a jerk off We all know this jerk off We all know the guy far too old to be being this guy. Yep got kicked out of the military And he's back at home when he tells stories. It's a giant a giant 13-year-old It's pathetic and you get get a life, you know what I mean? Yeah, we all know this guy though every town has them So he takes a bunch of shitty marginal jobs He drives a car for a halfway house giving people like rides to court Um, you know shit like that people to and from their jobs. He worked as a security guard Who the hell would hire this guy? He worked as a bouncer for a little while because he's a big guy Um, yeah, he worked construction. He did some oil field shit. It all is very short time temp jobs till he gets something else Quick turn around quick turn around um That's about that. So he likes to hang out in the 90s. He likes to hang out. Go to the bars of Farmington. Fantastic. Loves it. There's bars. I didn't know it. Oh, there's 46,000 people here. Now there's like 30,000,000 back then. There's bars on Main Street. There's bars on the highway. There's bars everywhere. All over the place. Oh, yeah. One is called the turn around. He goes there a lot. It doesn't exist anymore. It's a shithole, but it was a dive bar in the middle of nowhere. So he goes there is working career. The quick turnaround. His naval career. Also coffee shops that are open and late that they hang out at. Those are kind of like kind of like goth kid hangouts. Sure. The coffee shops. There's also a place called the eclectic on North Allen Avenue, which is a block off Main Street. It's a head shop essentially. Sure. Yeah, they have bongs and shit like that. They have like swords and goofy shit that head shops have incense and crystals and it's kind of an all encompassing type of joint here. You've seen it. So anyway, he, you know, posters and, you know, probably hanging out there. He hangs out there a lot because also they sell like shit for D&D and stuff like that. So he hangs out there and, you know, him and his friends will hang out there. Now he has a also at this place is a glass display full of what are called ornate knives and swords. This shit you hang on the wall that you know the guy who has ornate swords and his wall that generally when you buy them, they're unsharpened. Exactly. And they're just they're not just having an unsharpened knife on the wall. It's all for show. Katana blade, shit like that. It's silly stuff for like the real ornate ones with like crazy stuff coming out of them and, you know, something from looks like it's from a movie, shit like that. So they had samurai swords and regular swords, broad swords like replicas like, you know, Conan type style swords. Some had like the curvy blades that are just, you know, just for show. Some are actual like hunting knives with like turquoise handles and fancy shit. Just own handles, bone handles. Yeah. Collector pieces, not anything that you'd go out and do anything with. So Bobby hangs out all the time. He comes in drunk. He talks too loud. Tells everybody about how he was a Navy seal and how he's killed people and he gets in barfights and all that shit. So they said that his friend Larry Hudson said basically his stories about his constant violent actions were so just so constant and insidious and just up his ass with it that they became you don't even hear him anymore. He said it was just that they just shut him out. There's shut him out because it's another one of those stories again. Yeah. Anything that comes up is like, Oh, I knew a guy in that town. I killed him with my with Bubba, you know, and they're like, okay, sure. So they just all after. He's the guy they all laugh at when he leaves the room. They got Jesus. I thought he'd never shut the fuck up. So at this point, he's six foot one, six foot one white dude, big kind of a big stocky guy. He's been a construction worker, security guard, halfway house driver, an oil field worker. He's been like in the Navy's, but most of the jobs of the village people he's done. He's been yeah, basically every village person besides the Indian. He's been every other. Because an aimless nerd door who changes, changes his look with whatever career he's got. Usually, at least with nerds, they're smart and they do things. Like he's the worst kind of nerd. I've ever heard of that lazy nerd. And you know, he name, he's a guy who names his knives for Christ's sake. I mean, he's really a lack of creativity on everything too. Oh, yeah. And he's in his 20s. Like there is. Oh, it's almost growing up. Yeah. This is he's still stuck at 16. If it's not pathetic and sad at this moment, it's about three months away from him. Wow. Yeah. It's bad. He's also as a dumb shit buddy of his that we'll talk about here. This is Harold Pollock, P-O-L-L-O-C-K. He goes by either Hal or the name I saw on a newspaper that would be much cooler for him, Harley. From Harold to Harley, if your name is Harold, that is the least tough guy name that's ever been given. Harold is like an old joke where you hear like some old lady calling her a Harold. What are you doing in there? That's what that is. That's an old guy who maybe does your taxes. He's bald like Homer Simpson. That your name isn't Harley if you're Harold. Sorry. This guy's sat around going, how dare you, mom? How am I going to cool this off? Harley. How hard? I'll give you Hal. Now you just sound like an old man. That's fine. You're 100 years old. That's fine. How wild too. I didn't know that was short for Harold. I would have gone with Harry. Absolutely. Harry'd be the first one, but nobody wants to be Harry. Nobody wants to be Harry. So, Hal, I'll give you. I see an H, I see an A. I see an L in there. Great. You can be Harold if you want. You can't be Harley though. That is not a nickname of Harold. It is absolutely not a nickname of Harold. And also a nickname or a four short is supposed to be at least less letters. Same shit. Same thing. Harley. Well, not really. James and Jimmy are the same fucking amount of letters too. I guess. And yeah, and James is one syllable. Why do you guys make it harder by going to syllable? No idea. It's great. So here is, he's a couple years older than Bobby. And he's also pretty dumb from what a lot of people say. All right. Pretty dumb. Now, on September, I'm sorry, Sunday, November 24, 1996. Yeah. Okay. This is four days before Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving week. Yeah. It's a Sunday. So we have Bobby hanging out with old Harley Pollock there. Jesus Christ. So stupid. He's hanging out down by the mall, the Animus Valley mall. I guess here. So I guess he, he runs into old Harold there. And Harold's already there doing something. Bobby starts drinking some beers. Everybody said that he'd drink five beers to your one. Bobby Harley would. No, Bobby would. Oh, he hammers be hammers beers pounds them and then drinks a lot. Then he gets drunk real quick. And then he becomes real boisterous and agitated and tells you about how people he stand. Now, how Pollock said that night, he said, quote, we all partied and kicked back. I'm not sure how much I drank, but I wasn't sober. Bobby at one point offered to find a prostitute and bring her back to the apartment. He's right. Some apartment near the mall. Okay. That's some offer. Now, gee, thanks. You're going to bring a stranger into my house that you picked up off the street and paid money for sex work. Well, yeah. I'm going to give him my, please. Yeah. Don't be so judgmental. Use my bed. Wait, let me put some of my valuables out first. Let me make sure to lay them out so she doesn't feel uncomfortable. It's some offer. Thanks a lot. So how said he wasn't particularly into that, not into that idea. Yeah. It's, it's, and he knew it was trouble. What a gift. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot. He knew it was trouble too. He just said him and, you know, fucking Bobby and this and it's too much. It's too much. But he said he went along anyway because basically he was more sober than Bobby and Bobby told him you're driving. So let's go. Okay. So he's, Bobby's so fucked up. He can barely walk straight. He's trashed. Oh my god. So they get into Bobby Fry's blue for the spire. Fantastic. It's Bobby's. Yep. And hit the streets of Farmington looking for some ladies of the evening here. Okay. Six foot one. That's overweight man. Oh, jams it into a spire. Hey, the passenger side too on this one. But everybody says that that's a funny sight watching Bobby stuff himself into the aspire. It's I believe everywhere. Absolutely. So they're driving. They're not finding any ladies out at this point. And they pass the eclectic. The store they both hang out at here. And that's one of their favorite hangouts are always there. Sure. You know, doing whatever. So Bobby saw lights on in the store and told Pollock to stop the car. He said I need to take a piss. And this is the only place that's open that I can go in there and they'll let me piss at the breaks. Let me go piss. So now normally he would have just pissed in an alley. But apparently the fact that this place was open and he can piss in a bathroom made it better because it was a cold night. Yeah. So he knew that the people in the store that were in there would let him in because they knew him even if it's locked up. There's a guy named Joseph Fleming who's 24 years old. And he technically, I guess, works there or he's a security guard for a company that patrols the mall area. And did security work at local events. He's not really working security that night. I don't think I think he's just hanging out playing video games at the eclectic at the eclectic. Yeah. Then there's 18-year-old Matt Trecker. T-R-E-C-K-E-R. This is a lot of dudes. It's just a couple of dudes hanging out in the back of the store. Yeah. And Trecker's asleep in one of the back rooms. And this is every all of this group they've all spent the night at the eclectic from time to time. Follow asleep in one of the back rooms. Nobody cares. So Fleming here again, I believe it's Joseph Aaron Fleming. He's 24 and a security guard and he's hanging out. He's a former US Army soldier, a sergeant first class, you know, honorable discharge. Didn't didn't get kicked out. Probably doesn't tell crazy stories. And Matt Trecker, Matthew, he's an 18 year old kid who likes hanging out in the store. He likes role playing books and all that kind of shit. He's just, he's into that. So everybody is very loose about this. The manager even is loose about the whole thing and they don't, he basically doesn't mind if a bunch of 19 to 23 year olds hang out in the store at all times. Basically, there's nothing they can hurt as the way he looks at it. As long as they don't steal anything, I guess there was a bunch of steal, right? Yeah, I mean, there's swords and books and things. There's plenty to steal. It'd be obvious if they took something though, right? That's the thing. And it's, also, this place is a, this is a small town in Northwestern New Mexico. So there's not a lot of weird shit. So anybody who likes is into anything kind of cool or weird or off should be in path. This is where they all hang out and gather because this isn't the only place to do that. So Bobby pounds on the front door here. So let me in, let me in and Fleming let's him inside. So okay, here we go. Joe Fleming says, come on in. Talks with them for a little while then goes back to his computer game. Now, Fry uses the bathroom. Bobby does and then he and Pollock end up in the main showroom looking at everything. Bobby is looking at the display case containing all the knives and swords. That's what he's into. So, you know, that's his thing. So he tells, you know, he's telling me, look at the knives. They're pretty cool and Pollock's like, yeah, whatever, I don't care. The display case was unlocked. So Pollock watches, Pollock watches, Bobby pick up an admire some of the knives. Look at this one, put it back. Look at this one. So while they're in there, Joseph Fleming didn't, he was playing his computer game and didn't watch these guys. There were friends and everybody hung out here and who cares, basically. So, and also, Fry was working as a security guard at the same time. So it's like, you know, we're both security guards. It's fine. Even though neither of us work here. No big deal. Yeah. Okay. So it's very odd. Yeah. Now he's shit face. Like we said, Bobby. Right. He turns to his buddy here to Pollock and says, I'm going to steal some, some of the knives. Now, Hal said he didn't think it was a great idea, but he didn't say shit because Bobby is a hundred, weighs a hundred pounds more than him and his shit faced. And he doesn't have any interest in it. So he knew that, you know, Bobby can get into shit and be, you don't want to talk him out of it, especially when he's drinking. And when he doesn't get his way, he gets pissed off. So he, he said he reluctantly helped Bobby gather up several lot of knives and they're expensive. He's not. What? Several thousand dollars worth of expensive knives. Why is he doing this? Because he's told him he's doing it. And they let themselves out of the store without telling Fleming, even that they were leaving. They just took off. He basically took about a dozen knives. There's a samurai sword in there. What the fuck? All sorts of shit. Now we don't know exactly because there's no security footage in there or anything like that. And basically, there's not a lot of inventory tracking in the head shops, glass knives section, you know, glass display case of knives section. It's pretty, pretty Lucy Goosey with how they do the books here. So the two of them leave, they drive out into the desert north of Farmington to a place called, what they call it, I guess, the locals call it choke cherry canyon where they bury all the knives and swords. Bury him. What the hell? Why steal them? Right in the ground. Why steal them? If you're going to drive to, there's nothing like they play with them for a while. And a week later, so they drove right to the desert to bury them. What's the point? Now you're digging a hole in the middle of the night. This is a, you've made our nightway worse by doing this. Right. You're digging a hole in the middle of the night and putting metal in the ground where it can be destroyed immediately rust. The moisture from the ground will kill it right off the top. It's stupid. It's very stupid. It's very dumb, but it worked. Nobody noticed the knives were missing right away, right away, because there's a bunch of them in there. He didn't take all of them. He just took some of them, which is very interesting. The problem is, I don't get what he's going to do with these things. What's the end game? You can't hawk them. No. They're going to say, where did you get these? They have to tell them. You can't do anything with them. So it just doesn't make any sense that he would do that. It's very strange. Now, I guess later on, and this is from a book that will give you the title of later. Harley Pollock said, the knife display case was like a magnet for Bobby. He had absolutely been obsessed about these knives for years. This is his thing here now. These particular knives, he's loved for a long time. Staring at him in that case for years. November 28, 1996. I don't think they sell a lot. Those knives are mainly like for like decoration vibe type shit. They probably sell one a year or those fucking things. They're not selling that a lot. It's kids coming in to get 20 sided die in the lake. When somebody says, I want to buy that knife. They go really? Yeah, they go. Okay. I guess. I mean, so yeah, we don't even know how many years they've been sitting there. It's not like, I'm not like every day they go through the inventory. They're like samurai sword. Check it. It's still there. This one there. The price tag to be reminded what it costs. Yeah, they don't even know. So that week, November 28, 1996, that is Thursday night Thanksgiving night. Yeah. Okay. Now Thanksgiving night, they're in the apartment again near the Animus Valley Mall. Small group of kids gathered for a post Thanksgiving party, which young people, I remember doing that when I was young all the time after your family stuff. Then you all get together. Everybody goes like a diner or you go to a bar or a little depending on your age. So they're all hanging out drinking beer, doing a little bit of drugs here and there. You know, nothing crazy. Loud music. Just a party with a bunch of kids, 20 year olds, 22 year olds. Bobby's there. Harold Pollock is there. And about a dozen other people ranging from 19 to 25 somewhere there. The misfits are bumping over the system there. Let them have it. They're drinking like crazy. A little bit of drugs, but it's mainly a beer party. That's what's going on here. Listen to music, do in their thing. Bobby, you know, it's loving this because he gets to drink. He loves the misfits. Everything's this is all things he loves. He's drinking. He's loud. He's storytelling as usual. Everyone's trying to ignore him. They said, basically, he was getting crazy over the course of this night, like telling a lot of stories, really getting in people's faces, gas themselves up. Really just kind of getting in people's personal space and just a little too aggressive tonight, basically. He's wearing work boots, a black misfits t-shirt. And also he has a knife on him as well. At some point, Bobby decides that, you know what? This is, this is boring. He said, let's make this. And he said, let's make this a Thanksgiving to remember everybody. Let's never forget Thanksgiving. And he says, sure, how do we do that? Well, we got to make it memorable. We got to have it as a is a grandma's last Thanksgiving. Maybe it's possible. The way we will fix this is let's go get a prostitute. That'll do it. That's a solution to everything. Let's just go get a woman off the street and pay her and then we can all. So anyway, that's what he said. We're going to all share one. Well, mostly everybody kind of ignored him. Like, yeah, okay. That's his plan, though. Let's just go get a lady or we'll pass her around. Like it's a some weird bachelor party from hell. Let's all go get different ones. Nope. Just one. That's it. So Bobby said, no, no, we're going. Yeah, everybody. I'd never forget about Thanksgiving. If you and I put a lot of money in kind of prostitute, it would be very memorable because that would be an odd thing. Exactly. So he needs someone else to drive. Yeah. And he again knows that Harold's the guy who will do that. So he said, Harold, Harley, Harley in the car, my friend. Let's go. We're driving. He said, fuck, okay. Let's do it. So he says not enthused again. Doesn't want to really do this. But he knew that if he told him no, the shit would get worse. So they leave the party sometime after 11 p.m. and get into Pollock's car. Now, the aspire different car. Yeah. They drive around downtown Farmington looking for, you know, a woman out, you know, what? Buying her wears. Now, the, the, the trope of a lady walking. I don't know. I don't know how much street walker action goes on in a town with like 33,000 people at the time. Yeah. You don't see that a lot in small towns, just the ladies out walking. There might only be one. Just one. That's her. We know her. They call her downtown Debbie and everybody knows her. That's what it would be though. So they're looking and they don't find anybody. It's Thanksgiving night. And, you know, family. Yeah. There's nothing even else open. It's Thanksgiving. So everyone's closed. And even clothes on Thanksgiving games. Yeah. Everything's closed. So they are, they're going, they find that after midnight, so they drive around for almost an hour in a small town. And then they find the eclectic the lights are on inside again. Okay. Okay. So this is just after midnight. So Thursday into Friday morning. Joseph Fleming is still there. Okay. He's still there. 24, 25 years old. They believe 25 with some sources say 24. Doesn't matter. He's working. He's there. He works there. Apparently that's he's. He's ahead overnight. I guess because the place isn't open. It's locked. Right. But he's there all night. I don't know what the deal is. So anyway. He goes to the he's in there. So he's at the front and you know hanging out looking at computer shit. Now Matthew Trecker, remember the guy from last time he's asleep. He's still there. He's in the back of the store. And he's basically hanging out. And guess what he is? A sleep in the back. I can. Yeah. This kid needs an apartment for Christ. So he's 18. He's asleep. You know after Thanksgiving was doing his thing. So Bobby walks in and Pollock walks in behind him. The door is open. The bell on the door rings. They go in there. They all know each other and everything like that. They play video games with Bobby in the store and everything like that. So everybody knows him. Now what happens next comes from Pollock. And there's two versions of it. Oh, Harley here. Now Pollock says he went to the bathroom. Now what he says is when he came out of the bathroom, he saw something and he didn't know what was he was like confused by the whole thing. He said, I saw Bobby on top of Joe wrestling with him. Bobby had his hands around Joe's throat. Then he stood up and stepped on Joe's throat. He was wearing work boots. He was acting scared. Joe had a lot of blood around him and he wasn't moving. I saw Bobby wiping blood from his hands and arms. Oh boy. This guy escalated fast. So that's how it goes. Now that is the first version he gives. He also gives another one where he is more of a participant unless unless of a shocked guy who just got a fucking bathroom guy who just stumbled upon an assault. That's basically what it is. Now he says that Matthew Trecker came out of the bathroom back room and saw Joe on the floor and saw it was happening and he was like looking like what the fuck and then Bobby sucker sucker punched him. He never saw coming. He just got him from the side never saw coming knocked him down and unconscious. So at which point now Pollock says that Bobby Fry reaches in his pocket, pulls out a knife and cuts Joe Fleming's throat with a knife. Wow. Yeah. And then later on the medical examiner will say it's blunt force injury consistent with a heavy boot crushing the windpipe and throat slit. A painful shitty death is what this is. So then he turns to Matthew Trecker goes over. He's on the ground unconscious. He pulls up Matt's shirt and starts stabbing him in the chest multiple times just attack brutalizing this kid. This poor kid. He's 18 years old for Christ's sake. And then he handed Pollock the knife. And he said quote, we can do this. We can be each other's alibi. Full proof. I'll say you are with me over here. He'll say I was with you and then we're golden crisscross was cross. What the fuck does that mean? Nothing is a moron. You just killed two people. I didn't put that. It's okay. Anytime you kill people as long as you do with another person, it's full proof because you can just both say you were somewhere else and then they can't they can't possibly crack that story. It's over. We can be each others. No, bitch. What are you talking about? So I don't need one. But he's handing him the knife. Say stab him too and we're each other's alibi's. Let's do this together. So Pollock says he stabbed Matt Trecker three or four times with the knife. Then Bobby walked over to the display case took out two more swords. This is going to get worse, Jimmy. One was a big wavy bladed sword. The other one was like a samurai sword. Yeah. So Bobby handed Jesus Christ. Bobby hands Harley the samurai sword and says quote, let's cut his head off. Oh, hey, what about that prostitute? I've been getting I feel like if we don't get out there, we're really never going to find a lady like anything to get him out of here. Yeah, hungry. What the fuck? I thought we were going in halves. He's on pussy, man. Yeah. I thought we're going. I thought you thought it was on you tonight. What's going on? I was really excited. So anyway, he said, let's cut his head off. So Pollock said basically that he and Bobby tried to be head Matthew with swords. Oh my. And these are not unsharpened. These are that's the problem. These are display swords. These are not sharpened swords. So he said that he or Pollock said he reluctantly took the sword and stared down at Matt. He said he always liked Matt, but what's he supposed to do? He's got a giant psychopath who just killed two people as a sword next to him. He's supposed there's no way out of this. This is according to Pollock. I'm not saying it's true. So he said, if I don't do this, I'm sure Bobby's going to kill me. So Pollock said he was shaking and nearly crying at this point. He said he bent down and placed the what would be the sharp edge of the sword, just not the backside, against Trekkers throat, then began to like, uh, at it. Christ. Okay. With like a spoon for Jesus. It's hard to find the butter knife, essentially. Um, and he couldn't get through it. And they were, they were trying to cut his head off. They couldn't get it. Pollock later said to the cops, quote, it was hard. It was like chopping wood. Way worse. Disgusting. What? What the sock? This is crazy. So they couldn't chop through his neck. They never got through his neck. His head ultimately stayed on his body. Yeah. And he died from stab wounds instead. Jesus. So now what the fuck do they do? They realize, oh, shit. We're inside of a locked store. Yeah. The store's locked. They locked us on the way in. They locked the door, which has a key, but they, they, they didn't know what to do. Um, now, depending, there's a couple of different versions. Pollock said they broke the key off in the lock on the way in or way out. They're not sure which one, but the key was broken off in the lock. And the back door has an alarm on it. And they don't know the alarm code. So they're trapped in the store now. Two dead bodies that they've killed. And there's no way to get the fuck out of here. Um, so eventually they got out. No, we're not sure how they got out. They think they possibly damaged another door that didn't have an alarm on it got out that way. Whatever it was, they ended up getting out, but it took a while. Okay. So they drove away. Where do you go now? Well, back to choke cherry canyon. That's our hideout spot apparently, where they had buried the original swords and knives. They try to clean up and figure out what the fuck they're going to, they're going to do now. Um, Pollock said Bobby was excited. He said he was energized. That's the exact words he used here. Um, he said he'd finally done the things he was telling stories about. So he was into it basically. Pollock said he was sick. He was just sick. He said he couldn't believe what he did. He couldn't eat. He couldn't sleep. Horrible. Yeah, this is disgusting. Yeah, that's that they maybe don't hang out with this ass all. So normal reaction. He said they agreed to never speak of it again. Okay. This is a going on in the vault here. Now the next morning, the day after Thanksgiving is a big shopping day, especially at the head shop, yeah, even at the head shop. It's a big shopping day. So that day, they opened November 29th on Friday morning and a regular came to the door. They come all the time and it's locked at a time it should be open. So they're like, what the fuck? Look and try and try to open it. Won't open. So they looked through the window and saw a foot on the floor between the counter and the back hallway. That's all they could see was a foot sticking out from behind the counter. Obviously a bad sign. Right. Um, so he called the police department. Cops came. They had to force their way inside and they found the scene. I mean, I was not what they expected. Um, Joseph Fleming had injuries consistent with Pollock's account, blood force trauma to the throat, um, consistent with heavy boot crushing the layer. Uh, uh, damn it. Laryn, larynx. It's so hard to say. I want the larynx. Larynx. It's, I want the end is at the end before the X Y N X. Yeah. Larynx, but you really want that to be before larynx, larynx, you want it to be like two ends, but yeah, I've always heard it later next. That's how everybody on earth says it, except for if I say it like that, I get 7,000 people fucking messaging me. I said larynx wrong. I'm like, I don't care. Am I a fucking doctor? Do I look like I know much about anatomy? I'm a fucking idiot. I don't know all the time that we're not doctors. The amount of people, I have to tell them that a doctor or a scientist or a medical examiner or a lawyer is incredible to me. Like, but you know, it's wild. You see people on these, on these 48, they all say larynx. That's how everybody says it. They all do it. Why? Larynx. It's hard to say because it's hard to say it the other way. It's harder. Yeah, I guess. But larynx just, it makes more sense, doesn't it? it sounds I don't know they both now I now they all sound the same in my head they're all but now I know which one's writing more such as that but I've seen so many have heard people on TV say Lairnick so many times yeah it feels like that's the right way to say it it does I also know it's blood spatter and not blood splatter exactly exactly you hear all the time too but yeah we're not we're not doctors lawyers cops medical examiner's scientists of any strike precreate or first type we're not we're just not that yeah and it's fun and you get you get a pass on this shit that's the other thing you could fuck yeah you could say the wrong is shit in the world and everyone's like oh that's nice did you think because they because they think you're dumb and you're not Jimmy's not dumb by the way I'm pretty dumb you play a dumb guy on TV you're not a dumb I mean I don't know a lot what I don't know is fucking that it's staggering but you put yourself in a sweet spot where you can be as wrong as can be and people go what the hell does Jimmy know it's fine they act like I think I know I don't know anything I'm just as dumb but you guys act like I I know shit and like you're gonna correct me if I'm wrong I don't know either I'm just trying my best here I don't have any I did somehow jockey myself into the sweetest spot in any business on the planet according to every comedian that sees our show yes how many times have you been told if anything happens to you yeah I'm taking that spot how many comedians have told you make sure James calls me I have been told that by people who are dead yeah I'm the lumpy of some bitch on the planet man I'm in that spot no but it's a you get to they yeah they're they're like oh Jimmy's just you know he doesn't know and it's like oh he knows just as much as me don't know I'm saying hold him responsible I'm saying hold neither of us responsible that's okay let us be too dumb comics that's all yeah oh man so his larynx is crushed so his larynx is crushed anyway so yeah that's how that goes crushed larynx all that type of shit the also a deep single drawing style cut across the throat consistent with a buoy knife slidding someone's throat like Rambo one motion yeah one shot yep defensive wounds on the hands are consistent with a brief struggle no other significant trauma to the rest of the body died of his fixation and ex-anguination so choking and bleeding order of injuries was throat cut or throat crushed then throat cut who was likely conscious for the throat cush cut crush and unconscious or dead by the time the knife came out oh my he's conscious for that now Matthew Trecker his poor kid had bruising to the face and scalp consistent with a sucker punch to the head so we got that multiple stab wounds to the chest and torso consistent with a single a edged blade of about four to five inches in length partial chopping injuries to the neck consistent with multiple impacts of a moderately blunt edge like you know a sword that's only for decoration yeah also so the cause of death the stab wounds for the chef to the chest the chopping injuries were post-mortem and he wasn't alive when the sword came down so that's good it both bodies are in a big pool of their own blood they're both cold it's been it's been a while since this happened the store has been ransacked the knife Kate display is now empty or almost empty all the swords are gone the drawers are open looks like a robbery but nothing else of any monetary value seems to been taken other than the swords and knives and they said the cash register was either untouched or they took they didn't take all of it that was in there if they took a few bucks and nobody noticed it but that's it otherwise no they didn't like empty the shit they treat it like their mother's purse you take a 20 and she won't notice hopefully she won't notice yeah she's got paid so they said the motive look like a robbery of decorative weapons that got into you know obvious bad territory so the bodies were arranged in in the store in a way that suggested that the killers had moved them probably out of the view of the window is what it was yeah because they only saw a foot sticking out out of this whole scene they just didn't didn't notice that foot would be visible probably so enough that the original positions were preserved though you could tell where they went down though Pollock said later on that they tried to cover up being there before realizing they couldn't get out of the store yeah basically they wiped down the surfaces and did all that kind of shit to try to get rid of fingerprints or anything like that they do find a size ten and a half bloody footprint on a linoleum near the bodies that's the main thing that's the only real piece of physical evidence they have of a killer is that's a problem that's a problem that's a big problem so Matt Trecker's mom Christina and we're gonna hear from her multiple times over the course of this here she told investigators later that that morning before the bodies had been discovered she didn't know her son was dead yet no idea they were somewhere in Farmington she was Bobby Fry bumped into her and walked up to her and made small talk with her knowing whose mother she was knowing what she did what he did to her son yeah that's right obviously seeing if they've discovered it yet that's probably what he was doing oh yeah yeah and she's having no how you doing oh fine you know blah blah oh my gosh your son's not dead yet oh that boy yours I said hello yeah well she said it was a casual conversation just you know chit chat to a guy she met so this investigation basically goes nowhere there's a ten and a half shoe print in the slot that's it no fingerprints nothing of that nature the store is kind of ransacked nor swords and knives are gone yeah to dead people it just looks like somebody is you know attacking now Bobby was on a list of persons of interest because he's a regular at the store and a knife collector so anybody was a regular at the store they talk to first and people his own friends have heard him talk about different murders and even yeah even that murder he has told his friends that he did this what now they think he's full of shit right I think he read about a murder in the newspaper and I'm the tough guy but his friend oftentimes yeah his friends told the cops and the cops talk to Bobby and he was like no I was just talking shit yeah ask him a hundred other things I said I did that aren't true and they talked to Pollock and Pollock said I wasn't anywhere near the eclectic that night blah blah we were out looking for a chick and that was that um there were other suspects the other people that hang out at the eclectic that all you know had their own everybody had about the same amount of motivation here not much so and culpability I guess to yeah yeah so they did exactly and they were looking at one of those weirdos that hangs out at the store and and they just didn't really pay that much attention to it so for that's it that's it it's oh basically the the whole thing goes cold yeah very quickly he would be telling people and bragging at parties and telling anybody that anybody that he could tell that you know I'm a Navy seal and I killed those people at the eclectic and I killed all these other people tells everybody he wants to tell nobody believes him so it's referred to as the headshot murders in the local press and basically by the middle of 97 it's a cold case and it's in a file in a drawer and that's that stop naming them after where it happened uh yes the yogurt shop one for cold cold case forever too forever that's what happens don't name it that please don't November 1997 there's a young man who's 18 named Travis Killing K I L L E and killing wow he's killing he should have a bit of comic but he he's a friend of Bobby fries and he disappears never to be found again killing disappeared killing is is gone we don't know what happened to him but he's a friend of Bobby's and he disappears so in my head that's suspicious um March 31st 1998 Bobby has a new pal now oh and Pollock has tried tried to edge himself away from him there yeah he doesn't really want to be friends with him he seemed to actually be freaked out by what happened he's just busy today yes a little bit no I'm still busy Bobby real busy I got five jobs now yeah this guy's just getting all these jobs just so Bobby will leave him alone working at McDonald's doing double shifts two hours a day this guy doesn't matter got away from that guy March 31st 1998 here so this is his new pal Leslie Eng ENGH like we said he's 22 years old sometimes in some accounts he's called Lester Eng but it's Leslie now between 96 and 98 somewhere in here he made friends with with Bobby okay he lives in Kirkland with a K Kirtland which is outside Farmington born and raised in Farmington though not really didn't fit in with the clean cut crowd always he's a trench coat kid they got a clean cut crowd in Farmington the jocks yeah I got the jocks and they got the nerds and they got yeah yeah they got those kids get a quarter back yeah it's baseball town USA I remember Jimmy so you know yeah everybody's got a quarterback no matter what but he He is and think about when this is, this was the late 90s, so, you know, he is pre-columbine trench coat kid though. Yeah. And we all knew the trench coat kid. Go back to the, I believe it's episode two, fourteen of this show possibly, which is the one fishkill New York. Yeah. Find out about the kids I called Hitler and the A team in high school who ended up murdering a family. Yeah. They were all trench, trench coat kids. Not to say anything wrong with a trench coat, but I'm just saying there's a certain. But in the late 90s, there was ten kids at every school that were the trench coat kids. They were, and there are certain type because they weren't just like the, they weren't goth kids really. They weren't, they weren't, they were kind of without a group, but all the kids that wore trench coats were like into like weaponry shit. They were all like weird. Yeah, they were all nice kids. They were all nice kids. Yeah. Yeah, knives and they were like talking about guns and shit, remember Hitler and the A team. That's why I called them that. The Ten of My School also were in the hackers that movie and they all roller played it everywhere too. Oh, Jesus. Imagine that Ten kids in trench coats on roller blades. That is, that sounds like something made up for a team movie. It doesn't it? The kids in My School would never even go near roller blades. I don't think they'll give each other nicknames and shit too. Oh, God. Now these kids never had time to because I gave them nicknames. They were going to murder people. I would have been the first fucking one because they would try to like pick on people and try to intimidate people. And I was like, fuck all three of you little fucking bitches. You know what I mean? You're a Hitler and the A team. Yeah. No. I've recently found out that a few of the kids have formed a band in their Werner fucking forties and they play like the lakes around. Jesus Christ. At the marina. No. What are they form in bed? They're 40. What are they doing? No. They're playing. I don't know what the fuck they're thinking. Yeah. What are you going to do? Yeah. You're 45. Unless you, you know, you can reconstitute the band. We can't form one. Yeah. I think they're just, I think they're just like trash just having a good time just being like trash. Interesting. Well, anyway, Leslie, I, where's a trench code? He reads philosophy books all the time. No. He got kicked out of Farmington High School for behavioral problems. He's like a Heath Ledger character or some bullshit. That's kind of what he is. Yeah. He went to the local alternative school and got his high school diploma because he's pretty smart. And if you go to the alternative school, you can get by pretty easy and that fast. Yeah. Fast. You can do a year's worth of school in two weeks. Yeah. He basically didn't really have to try the graduate from here. So it is. Yeah. So after high school, he moved in with his friends, got a job checking natural gas lines and then would just do drugs and party in the off time. Yeah. Just like a guy from a small town in the middle of New Mexico. So everybody, a lot of people work in the natural gas industry up there. He reads philosophy. He writes poetry reads philosophy reads philosophy books rights poetry is a very quiet kid. At one point, this is funny. This is from a forensic files episode and other people have said this to people describe him as looking, quote, like a baby chicken, which is not a compliment. What the fuck? I've seen his picture. I see it. He's kind of fuzzy. Big eyes. He's kind of fuzzy headed. He's a little baby chicken. This is the best way to put it. Yeah. Real big black eyes. Yeah. He tells the sky is falling all the time. It's real weird. Baby chicken. Thank you. You know, it goes. So. This is a specific look. Very specific. Yeah. And now a new item. They hang. Baby chicken and baby. Healy. Yep. The two of them to go. The babies are chilling. So this night, they head out to a bar. Okay. This is March 31, 1998. They head out to the turnaround bar. Yeah. Turn around is it's kind of, it's on the way out toward the reservation. Sure. Um, and basically this night, they meet a guy named Donald, uh, Tossi. T-S-O-S-I-E. Yeah. It's Josie. Josie. Um, uh, he's a 40 year old man. Uh, he's from originally Ganado, Arizona, which I've never heard of. Um, have you? Ganado. Ganado. I think it's on the resort. He's a Navajo. Yeah. And he's from the res. Yeah. So that would make sense. Yeah. Why we never heard of it. Not a lot of, is there an apostrophe in there somewhere? No. No. No. No. No. It's not a plasma. Oh, my, he's really down. It's down. And the plasma pays like 30 bucks a bottle over here. It's nothing. Yeah. So it's nothing. But if you have nothing, that's something 30 bucks a lot. Do you remember our buddy Teddy used to do that like absolutely? As frequently as they'd let you to. He's a comedian though that I understood. That's a terrible lifestyle you're living. You should see what he was eating. Yeah. Nobody would want his plasma. Cellular is plasma. I know a lot of comics that sold plasma and bread and anything they could sell. Fuck yeah. Yeah. Jesus. That's terrible. That when you see a guy on stage, they might have sold plasma. They might have sold by a logic or something. Yeah. Absolutely. That's scary. So that's what he did. He came to Farmington to sell plasma. And apparently these plasma centers are a big thing around these areas. That is where people get some money once in a while. Buming, a lot of poverty around here and they pay cash out the door. So that's it. So Donald is 40 or 41 years old. We're not sure. Basically Leslie Eng and another person both say that Bobby focused in on Donald to see. So see because quote, he looked like he had money. How much money could he look like he had? Good for him to figure out how to look like that. He blew into town to get $30 for plasma. Yeah. What do you do? He looks rich as shit. Now by the way, this is a thing and we have to talk about it in the 70s and 80s. This was formally investigated. A big deal. There was a big local activity apparently among the white teenagers and early 20s kids called quote, Indian rolling. What? This is where a bunch of white kids would drive into town and find a drunk. A drunk person, a drunk native and beat him up and rob him basically. That's fucked up. It's fucking ridiculous. It's a shitty to do that to anybody or whatever they're any see a people do that to homeless guys sometimes. Yeah. What are you doing? What the fuck is wrong with you people? You know, someone who could fight back at least. So this was a big deal. It's well-docs and then that there was voters in the 70s over this. Yeah. What would I say that was terrible. Somebody could fight back at least. Well, yeah, at least someone who's drunk and ready to be pushed over. If you want to fuck with someone, fuck with someone. Go find some bikers on his first beer. Yeah. Go find some bikers on his first beer and try to roll him. What do you mean? Find out. Find out. No shirt with a leather vest and a. You know that guy. You earned his plasma money. Yeah. That's some guy who can barely stand up for Christ. I dare you. Fuck with that guy. Yeah. Fuck with that guy. That can be who can fight back. Yeah. But this is a big deal and it's a very known thing in the area and it's one of those things. And many of Bobby's friends said that Bobby liked to quote get drunk and roll Indians. Uh-huh. Okay. So that night Lesley offered, Lesley and Bobby offered Donald to ride. So they will give you a ride and he was 40 years old. He shit faced, uh, Donald is and he is nowhere near his home town. And so he said, sure, I'll take a ride. What the hell? So they drive Donald outside of Farmington. They drive south into the canyons around the city, okay? Bobby's driving Lesley, Ang is in the back seat of Donald's in the front. Okay. Um, Ang reaches up from the back seat as Bobby's driving and strangles Donald's OC. He said that he did this so Bobby wouldn't get in a car accident trying to kill him from the driver's seat. You know, he can't kill people like you're driving. It's very difficult. You know, you know, driver needs to like open something. You open it for him so they can keep your eyes. They need to kill a man. You just do it for him. You take their empty, you rebear him and we, you rebear him. You put a new straw in their fruit box and there's juice box and you give it to him. So now that's crazy. So Bobby then pulled the car over on a remote canyon mesa near the Arizona border. They dragged Donald from the car, which is obviously, um, you know, scary here. They drag him from the fucking car here, which is great. They strangled him. He strangled him from the back. So they pull him out, um, wow, this is wild shit. And they said that they're, you know, as we'll find out later, they throw him at the bottom of a cliff, basically, about 150 feet down at the bottom of a cliff. They rolled him off the cliff. They just tossed him off the cliff. Yeah. Oh boy. Um, it's fucking horrifying, um, wow, um, so, um, they got nothing out of this. No, nothing. And by the way, the forensic files really had a ball with this part. The forensic files had the guys saying, an Indian, we got one, which is wild, like they're in deadwood or something. I don't know if that's what they were true saying, but they said that's what the reenactment guys said, reenactment guys, we got an Indian, we got one, that's the reenactment guys. Then that goes until late April, 1998 when a hiker in this canyon here, by the way, it's reported either as April 1st or April 29th, we're not sure, but seems like April 29th, it's consistent with the reporting of the newspaper. So we'll do that. He discovers a decomposing body at the base of a cliff face, about 150 down, 150 feet down. The fall had broken the pelvis and several ribs, but the skull bore trauma not consistent with the fall blunt force injuries from blows administered before the fall. There were also pointy sticks at the scene with blood on them. Poor Donald had eye socket injuries consistent with having a sharpened stick being poked into them. What the fuck? They were stabbing him in the eyes with sharp sticks. At the after they threw him off before what the fuck, why would they do that? They beat him and stuck sticks in his eyes. I don't know what the purpose of that would be other than their sick fox. Now, there's no wallet on him. The pockets he's been completely gone through. But he's wearing boots inside of the boots written in pen is a name. There is boots. It's Donald's house. These boots. Sure. So they're like, okay, that's at least a lead of wearable names. And he could have bought him a goodwill, we don't know, but it might be his. They also, so they find the blood silk sticks, broken broomstick fragments at a shovel handle impression in the dirt, like someone who left the shovel laid it down. Okay. There were tire tracks, but they couldn't really compare it to anything. There were footprints also. So within a couple of weeks, fingerprints from Donald's hand confirm his identity. His family was notified. They opened the investigation. It goes cold very quickly. Real quick. Real quick. They have nothing. Nothing whatsoever. May 29, 1980, '98, there's a man, 22-year-old named Pernell. Wow. How-in-gone-a-tua. Oh, that is a native man. Yeah. T-E-W-A-N-G-O-N-I-T-E-W-A. Yeah, I'm not going to consider him. That's a tough one. Yeah. Not a chance. He knew Bobby Frye, Bobby Frye, he knew Bobby. He was last seen May 29, leaving the Gators bar in Farmington, where Frye was a bouncer. He's considered the Frye's considered the last person to see him alive. He just disappears off the face of the earth. We don't find him. We don't know. So that's the second person that's close to Bobby that knows him, that it was in proximity to him when they disappeared, that no one ever found again. Wow. Yeah. So time goes by. Both of these are cold investigations. No one's looking at Bobby, nothing at all. He keeps getting shit faced every night, getting shitty jobs that he does, playing Dungeons and Dragons, and keeps telling people that he's killed all these people. All this type of shit, he's got a shitty fort aspire. Yeah. It's not good. He keeps hanging out with Leslie Eng, who must have enjoyed doing this type of thing because he keeps hanging out with him. Pollock isn't hanging out with him anymore. Pollock said he was avoiding Bobby because he didn't want to be around him. He said that being around Bobby is dangerous and he didn't know when it would, Bobby makes you an accomplice. Quickly. Yeah. And he said he thought he was escalating and getting more and he didn't want any part of it anymore. Yeah. So June 6th, 2000, Bobby, he's 26 years old now. He's out drinking with Leslie Eng, who is 22 at this point. They're out drinking at a bar. After the bar closes, they go to a nearby restaurant, which for some reason is open later than the bars. Yeah. That's weird. I could see like a Denny's, but this place has booze that's, they're still serving apparently, which means it's odd. Bobby gets into an argument with another customer at the restaurant because he's Bobby. He's drinking. Bobby goes out to his car and comes back in wearing a jacket. Oh, here we go. Witnesses and all the way there basically saw a bulge under the jacket. And Bobby leans into one of his friends and says, quote, I have an eight inch booey knife and I'm going to stick somebody tonight. That's what he says. Now, they don't, there are his friends that haven't done murders with him or like, yeah, right there. Yeah. He's trying to feel like a big man. So at that point, Bobby and Leslie and left the restaurant in Bobby's fort aspire to go to a convenience store for cigarettes. Okay. Now outside the 7/11 is a woman on a pay phone crying, making calls hanging up crying at the pay phone crying. So this is Betty Jean Lee is her name, LE. She's 36 years old. She's a member of the Navajo Nation as well. She's from Shiprock, I remember you mentioned that earlier, about 25 miles west of Farmington on the edge of the reservation. She's 36 year old divorced mother of five and not having a good night, having a bad night. And we'll find out her friends kind of suck as we'll talk about here. She's a nursing student, by the way, going to college for nursing currently. She likes gardening. She likes gathering herbs for cooking stuff like that. Nice lady. It's basically what she has. She's got a brother, whenever she needs a ride somewhere, she knows she can call her brother at any time her brother will give her a ride, basically. So that night, June 6th, Betty went out with two of her girlfriends. Now we'll call them Gloria and Tina. Okay. That's what the book called them. Anyway, you got Tina, you got Gloria, and you got Betty Lee here. They went to the turnaround bar in Farmington, familiar spot by now. Now at the turnaround, her friends Tina and Gloria met a couple of guys. Oh, strangers. Yeah. Okay. One, by the way, called himself Johnny Miller, which is what you tell women we don't want to give them the real name. Um, he was probably worked for the electric companies married. He's here for a couple nights. He's on perdium. He's on perdium. My room's gross. You y'all come back to the other, uh, basically they can't remember his name. Now they decided Tina and Gloria said, we're going to leave the bar with these two guys and go to a motel, which is fucked up if you came with three women and you're like, you're on your own. We're going to go fuck these two guys in this hotel. Yeah. Yeah. That's fucked up. Yeah. You can't. You can't get that you leave together. Ladies, you come together. You leave together. You can't do this shit and leave this woman all by yourself. That's crazy. Unless you put her in a fucking taxi and whatever that's her home and then drop her off on the way to the motel. Yeah. But he said, no, we're going to the motel. So Betty is fucked and she's 25 miles from home. Oh, Jesus. She's got nowhere to go in its midnight. She lives in Shiprock. Yeah. She's 25 miles away and now she's got no friends, no nothing. So she walks to a pay phone at the 7/11 trying to call her brother. She calls him over and over again. He doesn't answer. So she starts crying. Now she's completely stranded and fucked basically. So she starts crying and it's at that point, Bobby and Leslie pull up in the four to spire. Jesus. Bobby pulls up and says, I hate to see a woman cry. At least if I haven't caused it, if I caused it, great, but that's what he said to her. I hate to see a woman cry and she's crying and all that. And so he offers her, I'll give you a ride and he goes, why not? I'll give you a ride. And he seems nice. He's a big guy. Seems friendly. Says he hates to see a lady, great to see a woman cry. Not fun to watch. Emotions to his turquoise blue for the spire and says, I can take his, I can take his far as Curtlyn. I mean, that's something, you know, car will make it. I mean, you know, it's a four to spire so it'll, it'll get about 900 miles to the gallon. Oh, yeah. I mean, I'll get you there. I've had the same, same tack of gas since 94. I mean, they, she thinks about it and she doesn't have anybody left to call her sisters watching her kids and her sister and told her, don't, please, don't be too late. I'm going to get the kid. Well, lifeline. Yeah. She told her sister, I've just been so busy with school. I just need to get out. Just please watch them just for one night so I can do this and whatever. And then she sees at this point, it's almost 215 a.m. and she's like, oh, shit, I'm going to be in trouble here with my sister. So she says, okay, thank you. I'll take a ride. It's at that point, a blonde man who looks like a baby chicken walks out of the 7-Eleven. Yeah. Packing a pack of smokes there on his hand and he opens up, he opens up the pack there. Feathers went over to Bobby and then offers one, two, Betty as well. And Bobby says, yeah. 'cause this is Leslie and I'm Bobby. - Yeah. - Sounds great. They've offered to give you a ride. They've given you a cigarette and they seem friendly and they're introducing themselves. - You know that, yeah. - They all walk to the car. She says my name's Betty and they're all happy. So she climbs in after Leslie, Leslie gets in the passenger seat. She climbs in and she can see everything happening. Bobby lights a cigarette and they start driving away. Okay. Apparently at some point she rolled down the window. I think she's in the front seat. They rolled down the window, you know, to feel some air. Now also a clerk at the convenience store heard a man fitting Bobby's description, offer a ride to a woman fitting Betty's description. And also said there was a blonde kid. Look like a chicken, it was weird. He was there. - A real chicken face. - They draw, draw the way in a car. So Bobby starts driving down an isolated dirt road. Okay, now if any woman out there, if you're in a car with two male strangers and they just turned down an isolated dirt road, your spotty senses are fucking tingling hard here. Okay, so they drive for a good few minutes through the darkness and there's nothing there. So Leslie is in the back seat. She starts to feel a little bit uncomfortable as one would, even if they've been drinking a little bit. Finally, Bobby stops the car and he turns and says, I gotta take a piss, so stops the car and gets out. What she does is decide, this is my only chance. - Yeah. - This guy's in the back seat. He can't do shit. That guy's over there pissing. She fucking swings the door open and jumps out of the car. - Starts running. - And starts running back toward the highway. Unfortunately, there are five minutes down an isolated dirt road there. - Yeah. - No where to run. And she hears Bobby screaming, hey, come back. What are you doing? Hey, come back. So then they get in the car and they drive up, pull up next to her and Bobby says, where are you going? I told you I'd give you a ride, didn't I? And what are we doing here? What the fuck, get back in the car. What are you doing? Like, are you crazy or something? - What the hell's going on? - So she looked out, she's in the middle of the desert. What the hell is she supposed to do? So she gets back in the car. She's like, well, I'm stuck out here and I can't do that. So she realizes I'm kind of fucked here. So she gets back in the passenger side and Bobby's like laughing like, you know, what are you crazy? Like trying to make it real friendly. Like this is, okay, whatever. I mean, you know, hey, I get it. But don't turn me like a little weirdo. - Yeah, like what the fuck? So they drive a short distance back down the dirt road and then he stops the car again. Okay, he gets out and starts going around. Now she tries to get out as well. - Uh-huh, but he's like there at the door before she can even get out. - Right. - He grabs her by the hair and pulls her out of the car. - Oh boy. - This is terrifying. He's trying to get her down on the ground. He's wrestling with her. He tells legs Leslie to hold her legs while I get her clothes off. - Oh, Jesus. - Jesus Christ. So she's struggling, struggling, struggling. He's got his eight-inch booey knife. - Yeah. - He sticks it in her chest. - It only goes in about two inches though. - That's far enough. - Which is far, but not far enough to kill you. So it penetrated the breastbone and the heart sack but did not pierce the heart. - Oh my God. - That close, okay. Now she's a fighter, Betty. She's not going down easy, obviously. She pulls the knife out of her chest and throws it toward a ravine. - Wow. - Which is, I mean, I think you start swinging that motherfucker. There's what you do. You pull it out and start. - Hang on to it. - Yeah. - Let's go. Yeah, get close to me. I dare you. Start swinging it like a maniac, just windmill that shit. Screaming. - Like a lawn mower. - Yeah. Yeah, that would be the best way to be safe in that moment. - Yeah. - People are just going to, they're going to give you three feet. But she's just trying to get away fighting for her life. She just takes it and throws it so they can't stab her more. Which is crazy. She tries to run away again. - Oh my God. - She gets up tries to run away but they catch up to her and tackle her and remove her shirt and pants now. - Oh my God. - Leslie goes to look for the knife. Also, gotta have that. So, at that point she tried to run again. - She got up again. - She's trying to get away. She's fighting. She's fighting. She's fighting. So, this is wild. Then Bobby goes to the car and gets a 10-pound sledgehammer out and comes over while Leslie's wrestling with her and smashes her in the back of the head. - Good God. - At least three and up to five times. - Oh my God. - Huge 10-pound sledgehammer. Disgusting. Just terrible. Then Bobby and Leslie drag Betty's body into the bushes by the ravine. - Uh-huh. - Okay, and they also kicked articles of her clothing off the road into the dirt on the side of the road, which is where we have found them in the beginning of the story. - Okay. - At 4 a.m., as he's trying to leave, they're all done with the murder now. They've dragged her into the bushes. Bobby gets his car stuck in the soft sand. - 'Cause it's a Florida spire. And they call Bobby's parents, Gloria and James Frye, who are asleep at home, they get a call at 4 a.m., by the way, they believe the call that he made was using Gloria's county-issued cell phone for her job. - Oh my God. - Okay, so they said, can you come pick us up? We're out near a dirt road by the twin mounds, the car stuck. So they show up in a pickup truck, which also gets stuck in the soft sand. - Shit. - Son of a bitch. So now they're like, what the fuck do we do here? They're, we're all fucked. So what they do is, and by the way, they're all standing feet away from a body. - From where they just put a body. - Yeah. - With mom and dad, okay. So this is fucking crazy. Now, here's a different thing. There's two different versions of what happened here. One is the forensic files and one is from the Albuquerque Journal newspaper. So whichever one is right. But the forensic files version says that all three of the vehicles, the aspire, the pickup, and the tow truck all got stuck. - Oh. - Ultimately, the owner of Bloomfield Toeing, Charlie, Bergen, the guy with the phone from the beginning, had to come out and pull all three of them out. - God. - That's one story, but the Albuquerque Journal reports that they reported that Gloria and James Fry, the parents didn't initially get stuck. They pulled up, got Bobby out and drove Bobby home so we could change clothes, clean up, and drive Leslie Engholm. And then they went out separately to the desert again to retrieve the aspire. - So mom and dad were definitely out there post-murdered anyway. - Either once or twice. That's the only thing we don't know. - And these two men that just stabbed and bludgeoned a woman, they had to have had blood on them, right? They're covered in blood, covered in people not. - That's the point. - What the fuck? - What the fuck? Now, this account also has this truck getting stuck on the second trip instead of the first trip. Either way, kind of irrelevant, kind of academic at this point. - This is a lot of time after the month or two. - So much time. So they go home, Bobby cleans up, fresh clothes, and gets dropped off at his place. Gloria and James go to whatever, retrieve the car and everything like that. We have Charlie Bergen either dragging two or three vehicles out of the soft sand, depending on whichever there. Either way, Charlie Bergen saw Bobby, saw Leslie, saw the Ford Aspire, he didn't know what was going on, but then later on he figured it out 'cause he dropped his cell phone while he was doing all this. If he didn't drop his cell phone, the cops have, who gots. Nothing. The fact that he dropped his cell phone was the only connection they had to go on. - Also, it's saying that this man dropped his cell phone within fucking feet of a murder. - Of a murdered body, and had nothing to do with it. That's the first time that's ever happened. That's what they were like. We got our suspect, here he is. - It's always that guy. - And he's like, yeah, I was out there toeing. - Sure, thanks for finding my phone, and they're like, hold on a minute here. - Love to have them back. - Yeah, so Bobby and Leslie, either way they got home before sunrise, changed their clothes, did all that shit. Bobby threw the bloody black t-shirt and his work boots just into a pile in his bedroom. Just on the floor there. Nope, that's how much he was so confident he'd get away with this. Then he went to sleep. - They never talked to him ever, may as well. - Yeah, so that same day is when the electrical line inspector finds the body that we talked about here, being a little too curious. Now, the evidence that they find here is way different than the Tosi or Tosi, Tosi crime scene here. That was like in the desert, no DNA, no preservation. It was there for a month, he was there for a month. The eclectic scene had been cleaned up evidence and shit like that. This was totally different. Fresh body, still warm. Blood everywhere, three sets of footprints, fresh tire tracks, a still bloody night. life off in the bushes, a still bloody sledgehammer near the road. Articles of women's clothing that belong to the victim on the side of the road. I mean, this is a different story. - It's messy. And it's messy because the man drives a four to spire. And it's going to be messy. - And it's going to be messy. - They're going to do a spire things. - They're going to aspire to do something. If you see anybody with three different tires, that is a window into their soul. - It's probably a four to spire. - It's a window into their soul. They have mismatched shit going on in their brain. - That's what's going on. - That is a life of chaos. - Yeah. - Or they're very poor, which either way, that is a life of chaos. - Chaos, yeah. - But you can't help at that point. - You can't. - They've been there. Now the body, they figure out is Betty Jean Lee. She'd been stabbed in the chest and bludgeoned in the head. Jesus, so chest stab was a contributing factor. Not the cause. The blunt force head trauma is the cause. Three sets of shoe impressions at the scene, one belonging to the victim, meaning there's at least two assailants as well, three different tire treads, meaning there's mismatched tires and somebody's a mess. So they find the cell phone and all that kind of thing. So it's 2 p.m. June 7th. They have a body, a name, an autopsy going on, a knife, a sledgehammer with prints and DNA on the mind. - Oh boy. - Three vehicles worth of tire tracks, a cell phone belonging to a guy who has business records that will link them to why he was there. - It's trouble, Bobby Fry. First thing they did here, they called Charles Bergen. Like I said, they found out all of that. It's an aspire, blah, yada, yada, Bobby Fry and Leslie Eng. So by the afternoon of June 7th, they're on their way to the Bobby Fry house with a search warrant at this point. By that afternoon. Okay. - That's amazing. - That is fantastic. - That is so true. - That's really fucked his life. If he doesn't get stuck in that sand, nobody knows that god damn thing. This guy keeps on killing for god knows how long because otherwise it seems like they're pretty inept around here. They don't seem to really be doing much well. So they search Bobby's home. They find a pair of work boots, size 10 and a half with visible blood on them. - Okay. - They're like, all right. Well, that's exactly what we're looking for. Couldn't possibly have anything more with blood on it. I mean, a shirt you throw out, but shoes you keep. You're rare. - You keep some pants, anything? - Well, a black t-shirt crumbled in a pile of laundry in his room with visible blood on it. So that's interesting. Oh, by the way, the boots are consistent with the shoe impressions at the scene. And that's nice. And also, witnesses describe him as wearing a black t-shirt the night of the killing before the bar and everything. That's not good. The car, which is sitting in the driveway, has blood on the steering wheel, blood on the passenger's side door interior, blood on a flashlight in the glove compartment, and a single earring on the floor of the passenger's side that does not belong to any female in the fry household. - Uh-oh. - Okay. That does belong to Betty Lee. - Yeah, to Betty, yeah. - Yep. There's so much blood. There's blood out. Everything's got fucking blood on it. - There's blood everywhere. - Yeah. He interesting. So they said that the blood on the knife and sledgehammer and the car, the shirt, the shoes and flashlight all match DNA samples from Betty Lee. - Uh-oh. - So in addition, they seize a pair of black sneakers belonging to Leslie Eng with blood on them that also matches Betty Lee's DNA. The also, there is a blood spatter expert that will say that the Bobby shirt and shoes and Leslie Eng's shoes indicated that while many of the blood stains on the shirt and shoes were created by medium velocity impact spatter from a blunt instrument striking a blood source in front of the person wearing the shirt and shoes, Eng's shoes contain only low velocity transfer stains and no spatters or projection type stains. Based on the blood stains as well as the spatter stains on the sledgehammer, the expert says that the person wearing the clothes with the spatter, that is Bobby and his black tee shirt and shoes, was leaning over the victim and repeatedly striking a source of blood with the sledgehammer, whereas the person wearing the shoes without the spatter did not strike the victim with the sledgehammer. - He's getting cast off. - He's getting cast off just from the hardness of the smashing of a witness, by the way, because they take knives, one of the knives at the scene, the big with the eight inch buoy knife, they take it around two places to see if anybody knows of this knife. Did you sell this knife? And somebody said they sharpened it for a kid named Bobby Fry about a week ago. I know that knife. Interesting. And the tire tracks, if it wasn't enough, the tread on the three different treads were determined to be consistent with all three of the different tire treads on his car. - Yeah. - Couldn't be worse for him. - No. - Leslie, by the way, we said with his spatter and all that kind of deal. - No, by the way, they also said, Leslie Eng's bedroom walls were, quote, "papered in violent and gory images." - Okay. He's got a lot of "quar posters." - Yeah, who gives a shit? So the police talked to Bobby. This is the day after the murder. He tells them, I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't wearing a black T-shirt and I wasn't wearing those boots. I don't know shit. I don't know anything. And then he just stopped talking. He just said, "Wouldn't speak again for the rest of the interrogation." - Okay, well, first smart thing he's done. - He's got some shit to explain though, doesn't he? - Not if you don't want to. - Yeah, I guess, take me to trial then. - I'm just saying, I'm not, I have a right to remain silent. Fuck off. That's it. Okay, you're under arrest then, stupid. The victim's DNA is all over you, dummy. You know, what are you gonna do? So now, Eng is brought in. He sits down and basically immediately broke. He was quickly, quickly. - The baby chicken couldn't handle the stress, James. - Couldn't do it. - It's a long interrogation, but it's because he's giving all the details. He gives the location, Bobby's role, his own role. He said that, and he even confessed, this is horrible now. He said that he could hear Betty making gurgling sounds and making sounds for some time after Bobby finished swinging. - Ah, fuck. - He used the word begging, like she was begging for her life. We're not sure, but they think basically, or brainstem was producing reflexive sounds, and that's probably it. She was probably already dead. You'll make sounds sometimes after you're dead still. They said the sounds were probably involuntary, but in Eng's mind, they were begging, which is, should haunt this asshole, I would hope. - I hope so forever. - The police, by the way, Eng keeps talking and they get a bonus murder. - Wow, 'cause he's like, we killed somebody else too. And they're like, did you now? - Is that right? - Donald Tosi, got him too. Yep, he told them everything, the turnaround, he jacked him for plasma money, the shovel, the broomsticks, they know he's telling the truth because they're up hoping. - He doesn't know they've got nothing. - No, he has no idea. - There's no idea. This is a gold case, and they've got nothing. - He just starts spilling it. He just starts doing like, fucking shunken goonies. - Yeah. - And then I do this in the third grade and then I threw up and I blame him, my brother. That's what he just starts doing. I'll admit to everything, I don't care, just don't hurt me. It tells them he pushed him off the cliff, gives the details of stabbing in the eyes that only the killer's gonna know. And they said, well, why did you do this? Why did Bobby do this? And he said, well, yeah, it's a Donald had cash and looked drunk and Bobby liked to roll Indians. So that's what we do. He gave them all of that shit. So they're both arrested, obviously. - Yeah. - Now, the charges for Betty Lee for Bobby at least are first degree murder, kidnapping, attempted sexual criminal sexual penetration and tampering with evidence. - Not good. - Not good, then Harley Pollock comes in here and they arrest him as well. He's arrested on June 8th. He wasn't involved in these murders, but they got him. Basically, oh, he's not arrested, I'm sorry. He's reading the paper on June 8th. And sees Bobby Frye got arrested for murder. And he's like, oh, uh-oh, he must have, he must have freaked the fuck out at that point. So late 2000, few months later, Bobby finally air about Pollock there, finally goes to the cops. He goes to the cops, he contacts investigators, he asked for immunity, saying he had information. - Hi, I'm Harley. - I got a story to tell. Which is not, I stabbed a guy a bunch of times, which is what he did. He came in and gave the first version of the story where he came out of the bathroom and he's a passive bystander and Bobby killed Joe and Matthew alone, but they were like, listen, stupid. - Yeah. - When you're ready to admit the rest, we'll talk to you more. Otherwise, go sit in the fucking jail cell. So eventually, over a series of statements over months, he gave the second version, which is probably the truth where he came and did the same. - If he's got immunity. - He doesn't, by the way. - No, the version has the samurai sword and chopping wood. It's all that shit. It lines up with the evidence much better. So now, his statements will be sealed under his immunity arrangement at first, but then in 2004, he's gonna have problems and it'll be unsealed. We'll get to that. - Oh shit. - So Eng flips as well. Well, Ang pleads guilty to first degree murder and kidnapping. Uh oh. He must testify against, uh, Bobby at trial. Yeah. That's part of it. So Bobby here, uh, he suspected in others too. The San Juan County Sheriff's detective Tyler Truby tells the press that he's also a suspect in the pernell, uh, Tehuangana, Tehuah murder and Travis Killan as well. Right. He said, quote, fry cannot be ruled out as the suspect in those two killings. There's also an unidentified woman found near the Animus River in 1997 that was never stalled. Sold. There's also a stabbing victim found in a Farmington alley during that same time. Yeah. And none of them have been tied to Bobby because they don't have any evidence to time to Bobby. But they all seem like shit. Bobby would do. Oh boy. They said, uh, the detective said, in fact, he would definitely meet the criteria of a serial killer, adding that the FBI will make that determination in the end. But if I had to say, is he a serial killer? He's a fucking serial killer. He's certainly got a lot of problems. There he is. I would fucking say, yeah, um, and he's done at least three separate acts now. There's a serial killer. That's a very little benefit out of the downtime. Yeah. He's killing out of any of them except for the actual act of murder. Yeah. And he's drunk every time. There's another thing that look at, um, now, Christina Trecker, Matthew's mother, blames the cops. Really? Yeah. She said law enforcement made a serial killer out of this fucking guy by not arresting him. She said, quote, he wouldn't have been a serial killer if they would have arrested him 48 hours after he killed Matt, right? Which is can't argue that. All those people would be alive, but they had no evidence, um, 2002 trial for Betty Lee, death penalty firmly on the table here. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, the federal prosecutor here, uh, the federal prosecutor wants to introduce testimony, which claims that Bobby Frye told people he hated Indians, quote, unquote, all right to defense attorney objected in court saying, quote, they just want to portray Mr. Frye as a mean red neck. Yeah. Yeah. That leads up. Yeah. That's what he is. I would call him a mean red neck. That's a problem. It's a good way to put it. Yeah. What are we talking about here? Um, they just want to portray Jimmy as a guy with a beard and glasses. It's strange. It's a problem. Weird. So the prosecution's case is Bobby Frye kidnapped Betty from a, from a payphone with the intent to commit a sexual assault attempted to commit that sexual assault, killed her in the course of the attempt and then tampered with the evidence afterwards. Those are the charges. The aggravating circumstance offered for the death penalty was murder committed with an intent to kill in the commission of a kidnapping. So they bring in the convenience store clerk who saw the encounter at the payphone and placed both he and Ang with Betty, uh, also a friend at the restaurant who heard Betty say or heard Bobby say he was going to stick somebody tonight with his blade. Another guy who sharpened the booey knife for Bobby a week before the killing. And Charlie the toe tuck truck driver who identifies both of them as the guys he pulled from the sand at four o'clock in the morning. This is not good. All of this. Then they bring in the blood spatter expert, uh, Ron Engler, who is a retired Portland area detective or deputy, who have built a second career as a leading blood stain pattern analyst. So, um, he testified in by 2002 he had testified in 300 cases across 25 states. He takes the stand and said there's medium velocity spatter, which happens when a hard object strikes a wet blood source, tiny droplets, you know, aerosolized back at the swing or low velocity transfer, which happens when blood touches fabric incidentally without high energy impact. Sure. So he talks about all of these shirts. He said that the, you know, um, Bobby had the, uh, black shirt and the work boots and the, you know, they had the other guys tennis shoes and they talked about what we talked about before that Bobby's shoes based on the spatter and shirt means that he repeatedly was swinging that over his head. Yeah. So, and they said not, not with Leslie, though. They bring up Leslie, and he he testifies really. He fucking spills at all, too, he, the defense cross examines him really hard, calling him a self interested liar who had to cut a deal to save his own life, right. Like he would. And it's, you know, every, every co-conspirator they do that with, um, the defense, their theory and their, you know, what they're putting forward is that eng dut it, did it all by himself and was framing Bobby. Oh. They said, well, what about the blood spatter, then? Yeah. And he said the analysis was flawed. Yeah. That's all his fake. Yeah. They said the DNA. Sure. That's not great. You're right. But it doesn't place Bobby as the swinger of the sledgehammer. Yeah. He was there, but he wasn't the killer. Okay. That's their story. The defense brings in its own blood spatter expert who disagrees in some, with some particulars, but really doesn't challenge the central theme of he has the higher velocity shit and he's, he's there. Um, the verdict comes in. Guilty of everything, got him. First degree murder, kidnapping attempted, attempted sexual penetration and, uh, uh, tampering with evidence. Okay. Sentencing comes around here. Okay. The state brings in four witnesses for victim impact testimony. Betty Lee's brother, two of her sisters and her minor daughter. Oh, Jesus. Yes. We'll definitely not give her name. Um, the, I think they wanted to hide it then, so we really want to hide it now. So the brother here, um, described Betty Lee. He described her as a sister who left ship rock to study nursing. He described her as a divorce mother of five who wanted to come back to the reservation and serve as a nurse and help the people. Oh my gosh. She was going to come back and practice medicine on the reservoirs. What a name. That's why she was going to. Yeah. Um, he described her as, you know, gardening and she said that he said that she tried to call him from the pay phone and was unable to reach him. Hmm. Two sisters. I'm sure he. So I feel terrible every day, every day because he, because his, his ringer wasn't loud enough, you know, just, he was asleep at two 30 in the morning and phone is don't oftentimes wake you up. That's what happens. Yep. So, uh, his, the two sisters talked about Betty Lee and say that, you know, they grew up with her and, uh, you know, now the, her kids have to grow up without her and, uh, Betty Lee's daughter. He also, um, made a statement here, you know, saying horrible. It has to lose my mother, obviously. I can't imagine. So, uh, basically the legal question, did the aggravating circumstances, uh, which is kidnapping with intent to kill outweigh any mitigating circumstances offered by the defense? Now, I don't know what mitigating circumstances he could possibly have here. Right. Think about it. What does he have? He's not like, he doesn't have like a 68 IQ. No. He wasn't like tortured as a child. He would. Oh, but I did see ketchup smeared on some people. Thank you. I was, thank you. That's exactly the thing that's what they talk about. He saw ketchup when he was three. Yeah. I can't even use hines anymore. I can't do it. I can't do it. I, I, I only hot dogs and only with mustard. I skipped that aisle at the grocery store. Can't even get peanut butter and jelly. Same aisle. Same aisle. It's all there, babe. Salad dressing has got dry lettuce for the last 20 years. Had ranch. I don't know what it is. It looks good on the commercials, but I don't know. I've heard white clothes love it on pizza. That's what I hear. So the, uh, these, I psychologist testifies that Bobby, given a life sentence, would be statistically very unlikely to commit further violence. He put the probability of violence against other inmates at less than 10% and the probability of violence against guards at less than 1%. Oh. So this is a risk assessment thing that they, they try to put on here. Um, that's going to be great crap. Yeah. It's all good. You put them in there. You're going to throw away. You don't have to kill them. He'll thrive. They also, uh, they have actuarial tables, clinical, all sorts of these crazy things here. Um, so the jury, um, yeah, the basically they're saying if we lock them up forever, they'll be all good. What do you know if they worry about them? The prosecution does not cross exam and cycle a psychologist heavily on the methodology. The state's judgment was the jury is, you know, not deciding whether he's dangerous. He fucking kidnapped with intent to kill. That's what we're talking about. If he's dangerous to other inmates, who's dangerous as fuck, as fuck. So they definitely bring up the ketchup incident. That's a big deal. You know, there's also a pastor. Oh, they tried to pull this shit with Corey Richards and her, her sentencing to they read a letter from a pastor in jail who says she, she tries to help inmates come to the churches and find Jesus. I don't give a fuck if she's helping them find M&M's Jesus. Okay. Whoever you want, Buddha doesn't, what the fuck difference does that make? How does that mean? Oh, they're a good person. Right. I don't understand why that makes them a good person. That, that, that's ridiculous. That we equate that. So fucking state. Yeah. It's, uh, and the, and the way that the, that person is convicted of, of a crime, the crime that person's convicted of is fucking wild. Yes. If she was talking about shit, what she's done. If she was that into Jesus, maybe she shouldn't have done that shit. I don't know. So, uh, the pastor testifies that Bobby has grown spiritually in prison. Okay. He also read aloud letters from two of Bobby's sisters describing his childhood, the babysitter, the catch-up, the bullying, forcing, forcing to be switched from left to right-handedness. The volunteer fire department, the dying accident victim, all of it. It just was too much for him. He described Bobby as, he goes to Bible study in prison and has conversations with Bobby about repentance. Letters describe Bobby as a young man whose darker tendencies had been visible from childhood, but whose family had loved him through them. The letters describe the babysitter incident, the bullying, volunteer fire, all that stuff. The pastor was convinced that Bobby has found God in jail and convinced that given a life sentence, he'd be a genuine pentatant for the rest of his penitent for the rest of his days. He will be sitting there just saying a sorrow, saying a sorry's every goddamn day. Try the 10 cup across the bars. That's right. Gloria testifies his mother, about just, you know, don't kill my son. His father James asked a jury for mercy saying, don't kill him so we can keep visiting him. The defense plays a videotape from the maximum security wing of the penitentiary of New Mexico depicting the conditions that he'll face as a lifer. Look at how shitty this place is. You really want to fuck with him, put him in there forever. Okay. You're giving him an out if you kill him. Yeah. The argument was it's worse than death in there. Okay. Bobby speaks as well. He apologized to Betty Lee's family, admitted what he did. He didn't admit it out loud. He said, I did this and I'm sorry and it was horrible. At least he gave him that much. Yeah. And he asked the jury to please spare his life for the sake of his loving parents. He's afraid to die. It's sake of his parents. Now before sentencing here, the trial judge talks to the jury and instructs them that under New Mexico's current parole math, a life sentence for first degree murder plus the other consecutive sentences in this case would mean Bobby would not be eligible for release for 67 years, which would be in his over to the age of 90. Okay. So basically, if you give him life, he will die in prison. He ain't getting out. Yeah. Unless he's a hundred years old, unless medical technology comes a real long way in the next couple of years. They said he will die inside. The jury says, okay, that's great. And then they return a verdict. You, sir, may fuck off death penalty. They didn't give a fuck. They were like, good. He'll die in there. Let's make it as fast as we can. Oh, he'll die in there for sure. They said, yeah. You bet you will. So the prosecution here was talking about this and said, there's no motive or no past acrimony. He just kills people. And apparently he enjoys killing people. That's what it sounds like. Yeah. He just likes this. There's no other explanation for it. 30 bucks from plasma is not enough to kill someone. Now, mom, his mom, Gloria Frye is in some trouble, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. A coalition of local victim advocates delivered a 250 signature petition to the San Juan County government demanding that she remove from her position. Oh, she's in the probation, yeah, misdemeanor person. The petition cited the cell phone, her car at the crime scene, meaning her truck was at the crime scene. And by the way, that was a county issued vehicle that ended up at the crime scene. The truck she drove the county truck to go pick up her son who was using the county phone allegedly and apparently. Oh, my God. That's not good. So they said that she showed up later on. By the way, when the officers were still processing the crime scene she showed up at some point, she that's according to the report though, she was as per the early reporting allegedly trying to find her son, which doesn't make sense. She already taken him home. Yeah. So I don't know how that worked unless she took him home and then he disappeared again. I don't know. She said she drove to the scene because she had heard or suspected that he wasn't some kind of trouble there, got out of the car. Her multiple officers present. The deputies were still photographing the body location and bagging evidence. Don't know if that's true or not. Don't know. But that's in that's in the documents of her, of the petition and everything. On June 7th, 2002, she is fired. Yeah. So that's it for Gloria. Now Leslie Eng pleaded guilty to first degree murder and kidnapping in the Donald Tosi and Betty Lee cases. His negotiated sentence was may fuck off 40 years. That's it. That's it, which is against the state's recommendation they asked for more. Yeah. 40. That is wow. So they go to trial for Donald now as well. Eng testifies Bobby Fry just the same shit used to roll Indians after getting drunk. A second witness corroborated Bobby's pattern of rolling Indians. Not our term, by the way, this is what they say. The defense attempted to put the killing on Leslie Eng again. Yeah. They said, well, he's the backseat strangler over here. Let's remember that. So, you know, and they said, Eng had a personal interest in framing Bobby. Also, that's what the defense said. The defense said, you know, he's got interest in framing Bobby because he's the one strangle in the guy. Vertic comes in. He's a guilty again. Okay. By the way, death penalty on the table again here. He says, Bobby speaks again. He says, quote, I ask you today, God, please don't kill me. I don't want to die. There was no damn excuse for what happened to him. So he tells the truth. Yeah, that's about right. How you're getting it still, but he has sentenced to the gavel out this time. You, sir, may fuck off life in prison to run consecutively to the death. After the death. Yeah. We'll grab his corpse and bring him back in a cell and sit him there for another 40, 50 years. So if that ends up getting, you know, taken away, he's still consecutive with the life with life in prison. So he's fucked. Now Harold Pollock, remember all Harley, 2004, he will have plead guilty at this point to being an accessory in 2004. That is because he refuses to testify against Bobby at the upcoming trial. He doesn't know it, even though he's supposed to because he's an idiot. Yeah. He refuses to testify. This is the eclectic trial for those two murders. He refuses to take the stand. So the prosecution reads his preliminary hearing statements into the record of the trial over the objections of the defense. This testimony here is the second one where, you know, they're trying to chop his head off and all that kind of shit. Okay. They heard I saw Bobby on top of Joe wrestling with him. Bobby had his hands around Joe's throat, stood up, stepped on Joe's throat. He was wearing work boots, work boots. We can do this. And of course, let's cut his head off, which is crazy. The state called other witnesses here, medical examiner. They called Larry Hudson, Bobby's friend who testified to the knife collection that he named the knives. He brags about violence. They called in witnesses that described that basically said that Bobby described the eclectic murders to them exactly how they actually happened. Yeah. They brought him on. They said, what did Bobby tell you he did? And they would describe it and they go sounds like the record, doesn't it? Okay. I heard that. Bobby takes the stand this time. Yes. He described what he called. This is amazing. His theory of how these killings might have happened. He has a theory. Yeah. Yeah. He said that the prosecution argued that they were basically that it's just they're all only here because they've heard shit that I said. Oh, the prosecution said it was too close to reality to be overlooking it, basically. Like the stories, new shit that only the killer knew wasn't publicly released. So they said his hypothetical of how the killings could have happened was so close to actual forensic record that it was like a soft confession. Yeah. Because he gave his during, he's well, he talked to the cops. He gave a polygraph at one point giving his theory, which was exactly what happened. It's just what different people doing it. But what do you do? Detective Tench? What are you doing? Yeah. He knows. I'll tell you exactly how it went down. Holden. So the holden, what's up, holden? We're going to profile this guy. Now the verdict comes in. 11 hours of deliberation. Wow. That's a lot. Is it? That's pretty. That's a lot. That's a good amount. Fuck yeah. Wouldn't take me 11 hours on this one. I don't think. So basically Pollock's hearsay testimony was a problem for some jurors that they admitted his testimony. They said our only real evidence is this guy who's not even here. Right. Like it's a piece of paper. We can't even look at the guy in the eye and tell if he's lying or not. Yeah. But they come back and find him guilty. Two counts of first degree murder, plus larceny tampering with evidence and intimidation of a witness because he'll allegedly try to scare a witness off, cooperating with the original investigation. Yeah. He is sentenced to you, sir. May fuck off again. Two consecutive life sentences consecutive to the death penalty and the other consecutive. Jesus. He's got had hundreds of years and a death penalty now. - Are they gonna keep doing more? - Oh, they're gonna keep doing it. Plus the larceny and tampering and intimidation time all tacked on consecutively at the end of their toe. Total sentences, one death sentence, three consecutive life sentences, plus various decades worth of shit for the other stuff. - That's up there. - Literally like 300 years and a death penalty he's gotten. It's no possibility of parole no matter what, even if the death penalty is taken away. Christina Trecker, Matt's mom here. Now I get it, she's pissed off. She said that she would let, this is a wild thing. She said that she would like to put the needle in his arm herself. - Really? - And then in the same breath said, but she's pro life. - Yeah. - Those two things that cross, I never will understand at all. It's the weirdest thing in the world. - Yeah. - I don't get it, but that's fine. She said, I do think he got his just desserts for what he did to Matt. And she'd sort of his mom, I totally understand what she's saying here. She said, she doesn't like, this is ridiculous too. She doesn't like to think about him being wind and dined in prison. Have you seen what maximum security prison is? - She thinks that they get the final meal every day? - She watches a certain channel where they probably tell you constantly how easy the prisoners have it. They don't have it easy. It's shitty, the food's terrible. They have to pick bugs out of it, it's disgusting. The whole thing's terrible. He's not being wind and dined in prison. That's crazy. First of all, that's dumb. But I get-- - Why do anybody think she thinks he gets to just pick every day? - That's such a, you hear tons of people say in that. Most of the people will say that. - These guys are in there living it up in prison. Really? Been to a prison? Stupid? - I've seen it make. - Now living it up. - Prison Hooch, and yeah, Cokane smuggled in somebody's asshole, guard's asshole, a copic man of a man's asshole. - Imagine how you're living it. - Look, I get that her husband's been murdered and she's pissed off. I totally get that. I totally get her saying, I don't want him being in prison. I don't want to pay for him to eat anything. I don't want to pay for him to eat slop. But to save the mind and dined, I mean, what do you want? - Wined and dined. I mean, that's, oh, new cutlery, please. This play setting has got spots on it. You got a lot of silver auto bottles on the wall. - Yeah. - A lot of camus. - Well, when they come to the table, they're like white or red and they take the other glass away 'cause they have a red glass and a white glass. - Let us. - It's different. - Swirl in a little bit. - Yeah. - Yeah, make sure it's not vinegar. - She said, I just wish the death penalty they gave him for Betty Lee would be carried out and get it over with, get this garbage off the face of planet Earth. Like I said, totally get it, understand. Harold here, 'cause he wouldn't testify. - Yeah. - He ascends to you, sir. May fuck off two life sentences. - Holy shit. - Yeah, he went to the cops this fucking moron. - He fucked up. - He didn't have to do any of this shit. He's just an idiot. So that's crazy. Now, in jail, Lesley does some interviews. So does Bobby. - The chicken. - The chicken. Now here is an article from a meal, Emily, but spelled weird. I am I-L-I-E. - Yeah. - Emily Carrick-Sorrosco, she has been apparently really working on this case. Here's a quote, quote, I remember the day I first interviewed Lesley in the San Juan County Detention Center a few months after he confessed. Although I had seen him before in court appearances, we'd never met face to face. I sat waiting in an interview room that was completely filled by large metal table and chairs. When the guards brought him in, unlocked his handcuffs and left him there, I was amazed at the fear I didn't feel. He offered his hand for a limp handshake. He barely met my eyes. He sat, his shoulders slumped as if he was trying to take up his little room as possible. His hair was blonde, cut short, and he wore wire rim glasses that gave him a bookish look. His jumpsuit was short sleeve for summer. And as he sat down, I noticed the tattoos across his bicep. His biceps, the demon tattoo across one arm gave my stomach its first nervous jump. His face showed little reaction to my presence, although his voice, nervous and hesitant, betrayed him as eager to please. He punctuated nearly every sentence with a high pitched laugh. We talked about the first meeting, icebreaker-type things, his favorite books, what would he do to pass the time in jail, his life before all this. I was surprised to learn that not only was he an avid reader of Nietzsche, he's philosophy. Yeah. But he was also a card carrying member of Amnesty International and a passionate advocate for independence and Tibet. Those are all great things, but you can't kill a bunch of people first and then be like, hey, free Tibet mother fucker, who are you talking about? Who are you talking about? This is, yeah, she's very glowing. He told me how he spent much of his time helping his cellmates, leading Bible study sessions, helping the literate, the illiterate learn to read and teaching them about their rights. He became known for firing off letters to the ACLU when the prison guards got out of hand, something that has made him a favorite target of the authorities. He said, when he was not helping others, Leslie was busy writing short stories and poetry, oftentimes using mediation or yoga in his jail cell as a way to get his creative juices flowing. We spent much of my first visit to speaking of flowing juices, Jesus. It's enough glowing shit here. Take it easy, lady. Hoof, we spent much of my first visit discussing philosophical questions. What exactly is art? How could one succeed within society's definition of success while staying true to their art? What? Start a podcast. Works great. You can do whatever you want. If people follow it awesome, if not, plug it. Maybe Netflix will put John. It's weird. That's how you do it. Who are we? What does we mean? Who am I? Who are we? With a murderer and have that conversation? He says this, quote, mainly I'm a poet. No, mainly you're a murderer. My poetry is really a piece of my soul. I write a lot of abstract and freelance poetry. Freelance, like he's going to be contracted to write. Like they're going to say, hey, please. Yeah. There's a magazine. We really need some poems from this dipshit. I've heard more about his murders than his poems. So I'm going to say, mainly he's a murderer. He said, once you get the structure, you sacrifice the art. For me, I don't want the success if I have to go that way. Yeah. Success. Yeah, I don't want commercial success. I do things for the art. I'm real free spirited about a lot of things, which, of course, jail doesn't help a lot with. Said, when Leslie and I eventually spoke about Betty Lee and Donald Tosi, he was clear about what he perceived to be his responsibility, quote, "I don't like being in jail or anything no one does." But I realized where I was wrong, and that's the price people pay. Okay. He also felt a certain pride in putting Bobby behind bars. He said, well, he's able to explain his involvement in Betty Lee's death on a rational level. Leslie seems oblivious or obviously shaken when he talks about that night. He says, quote, "I grabbed her legs when I was told to and I looked for his knife." Leslie told me as he looked down and carefully inspected his hands, his voice barely above above a mumble, I didn't look real hard for it because I just heard screaming, something that I won't wish on anyone to hear. It was real agonizing. Even worse was the stop to the screaming, because by then, especially after he stabbed her, she was running. He went to catch up with her. The screaming was just hard. I wake up and cold sweats to this day. But even worse was the sudden stop to the screaming because there was no doubt what had happened. The article goes on to say, he stopped then and looked up for a second, but didn't meet my eyes. When it came to Donald Tosi, whose death was arguably equally brutal, Leslie showed little emotional reaction. He said, that one wasn't as hard to deal with because I didn't know he was dead until the cops asked me about it. You didn't know? You didn't know after you strangled him and threw him off a cliff. Yeah. Jesus Christ. He treated him like a discarded road runner accessory. He'd fall off the cliff and make a poof at the bottom. He said, I knew Bob had beaten him up. I guess I should have figured in some ways, but in other ways, I just figured he got beat up and walked away. Leslie said he only strangled Donald to keep them from getting in a car accident. He said he was restraining him so that he and Bobby wouldn't, so that he wouldn't fight Bobby while he was driving the car. He says he thinks about Betty and Donald every day. He's considered writing letters to their family to apologize, but decided that any contact from him might do more harm than good. Leslie goes on and say, I often wonder if Fry thinks about his deeds. He wrote in a letter to me, meaning to the reporter, I myself try not to, but can't escape my guilt. Sometimes I think how much easier life would be if I was a sociopath, just kidding. LOL. Yeah. What the fuck? San Juan County Sheriff Bob Melton was the lead investigator on Bobby and Leslie's case. He never believed Leslie's innocent act. He said, quote, I don't buy that he was terrified of Bobby and feared for himself if he didn't do what he was told. I think he was into it. Yeah. I think I agree with that. He seemed to show some real fervor for it, some real aptitude as well. I think he's an actual gusto, held the legs for Christ's. Yeah. They said Sheriff Melton stood out in San Juan County. He became a police officer because he wanted to help people after years in law and force when he developed an intuitive sense about people that helped him cut through the stories [BLANK_AUDIO] to the truth. Sheriff Melton and I work together often during my time at the daily times and I came to respect his intelligence and compassion. Melton said about Leslie, quote, "I can see a person being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but not twice and maybe more." That's the truth. When he initially strangles Donald, he is sitting directly behind him and has his belt at the ready. Sounds pretty bland to me. Yeah. Yeah. They also talk about the the shit in his bedroom, saying his walls were plastered with pictures of blood and gore and he said the room looked like it was inhabited by someone who reveled in cherished and revered violence. That's a little that's crazy. Okay. They said the quote, "even for Melton, the season-law enforcement official, the site sent chills down his spine. I try to picture this room in my mind. I try to picture Leslie, the Nietzsche reading, Amnesty International member, fellow prisoner teaching Leslie, selecting these images and carefully placing them on the walls of his inner sanctum, the place where he is, who he is, and no one ever has to know. Who is the real Leslie? I came to believe that Leslie is no better than Bobby. In fact, with his ability to conjure up compassion to imagine his way to sensitivity, he just might be a whole lot worse." So she started out that article with practically, you know, we're going to, we're going to the comb coming dance. Yeah, yeah. And then at the end, she's like, he's worse than the other fucking guy. I think he might be worse. Yeah, because you don't know, at least the other guy you know you're getting a psychopath. This guy, he can play, he's disguised like Ted Bundy. This guy, he's playing the role. So here's a problem. The lawyer who represented Harold Pollock during Pollock's plea negotiations on the eclectic charges was Randall Roberts of Farmington Attorney. Randall Roberts was simultaneously representing Robert Frye on a different unrelated case at the time he was negotiating Pollock's plea against Robert Frye. Why would you do that? Because he's a fucking asshole apparently. He wanted to make a few extra bucks. That's all I could imagine. I don't know, allegedly. The same attorney's working both sides of this can't do that at all. Couldn't be more of a conflict of interest. Crazy. So also Sandra Price, the district attorney of San Juan County, knew about the conflict, knew about it. It was okay with this. The state's attorney general's office and the appellate briefing coming up conceded that she had known about it. So even the fucking office admitted she knew about it. And the AG's office characterized her conduct as having fallen short of the ideal, but argued that it didn't rise to the level of a conviction turning, overturning violation. By the way, Price would end up going on to win a election as a state district court judge and remains on the fucking bench today. This idiot is fucking idiot. Okay, great. By the way, I better hope I don't get pulled over in Farmington. Don't go to the front. That's what I do. It's a bad place. No problem. Easy. That's an easy one. Done and done. We're not going there for the show. That's never on our tour schedule. And I can't imagine going there just to see the sights. Yeah, if I ever had to drive to Oklahoma, I would certainly go around, go up and around. So 2005, Bobby appeals to the state Supreme Court. Now they unanimously affirm his conviction of first degree murder, but the chief justice, Richard Bossin, dissented from the court's decision to uphold the debt sentence. So it's still upheld, but he dissented. He said that he should have been remanded for new sentencing hearing, contending that jurors weren't properly instructed on the legal standard needed for capital punishment in New Mexico. He said the new sentencing hearing was needed to make certain that the jurors understood that the intent to kill for the kidnapping aggravated circumstance was different than the intent necessary to convict him of felony murder. Oh, there's a very fine line there. He said the jurors must be properly advised of those legal distinctions to ensure that the death penalty is imposed fairly and reserved for only the worst crimes. I'll check with that. 2006, Bobby Fry speaks from prison. Why? He says, by the way, he's not guilty of any of these crimes. Oh, even though he apologized during that, we got the wrong guy, the wrong guy. It's mistaken identity. There's another fat guy in a misfit shirt walking around the space. What all over it? Square one. Yep. He said, as far as for me being in prison, for what I've been accused of, for what I've been convicted of, I still say I did not commit these crimes. Here. A lady's what was on your shirt in your bedroom? Well, that's okay. He said, that's fine because he's made peace with God. So he said, quote, the hardest thing for me has been to ask for God's forgiveness. Oh, yeah. That's so hard for anybody. So hard, obviously. Adding that he feels sorrow for the victim's families. He said, quote, do I feel sorry for the families of those who died? Yes, I do. Good. And I said so in court, and I told each family member, I'm sorry for your loss. And I wasn't still am. Okay. Now, Christina Trecker heard that. Matt's mom and said, he's a liar who enjoys killing. I hope he rots in hell. He says, he doesn't think that's going to happen because Fry says, quote, everybody's guilty of sin. Some have greater sins than others. Hold on. Religious bullshit. Yeah. It's all the same. Along as you asked for forgiveness, Jay walking's the same as murder. Oh, that says, that's all fucking, that's what he says. James, I fucked a woman before we got married. But say it's okay. Might as well cut her throat afterward. I should get a desk. God's, everybody's fine. God would have been cool with that. Oh, he hears about the abortions. Oh, man. He also says that he's come to terms with the rest of his life and what he faces. He says, uh, people can like me. They can dislike me. They can hate me. In my life, I know there's some things that I've done wrong. I would say no. I'll kill to have a little bit of sin. Everybody sins a little. Trecker's mother said, I'm suffering for the rest of my life. I've got every day to remind me. My son was a living breathing human being who had a right to live. She said also she's going to write a book that will tell the real story of the eclectic. She said she's searching for closure and it's very difficult. She said, Matthew was a good loving kid and wouldn't do nothing to hurt anybody. And she also says she wishes there'd be more of a focus on the victims and unfri. I hope we did as well as we could there. Um, 2009. Okay. The New Mexico state legislature votes to repeal the death penalty in New Mexico. Oh, effective July 1st 2009. But the repeal is perspective only. It's not regressive. Okay. Nothing retroactive. Nothing retroactive. So it's basically if you're on death row, we're going to kill for a main row. Yeah. But no more new ones on here. There's only two men on death row at this point. Robert Frye and talk about the, by the way, we've done this. We did his episode, I believe I believe this was Florida, Vista, New Mexico, Timothy Allen. Talk about the not as nearly as bad as I feel terrible for this guy. He's got to have that asshole's name. Can you imagine? I'd rather have a murderer's name in that hack. But anyway, so he's on death row for strangulation of Sandra Phillips who is 17. I believe we did that episode nine years ago. So legal findings based on this repeal, Robert Frye's lawyers file a bunch of motions arguing that perspective only repeal is unconstitutional and they need to apply it retroactively. The district court denies all that shit. 2011 state Supreme Court, which by the way, the New Mexico Supreme Court consists of three coyotes, two jackrabbits, Snoopy's brother and a chunk of turquoise. Yeah. That's what sits up there. It's weird. The turquoise is the chief justice too. That's the interesting. And the hair of Geronimo. Well, there's a, that goes on the side. That's hanging on the wall behind them. So he appeals. They hear his arguments that confrontation argument was the serious one about the attorney thing here. The sixth amendment guarantees a defendant the right to confront his accusers. Pollock didn't take the stand, but they read his statements in. Also, the conflict of interest argument, all that type of shit. So basically, the New Mexico Supreme Court said, now you're good. Stick around. Stick around. By the way, this prison sucks too. It had a huge 1980 riot that's very famous and it's a mess. They've really beefed up security by 2002 when he's there. It's bad shit. Now, Leslie in prison, he wrote letters from prison to the victim's families begging for forgiveness before deciding that he was doing more harm than good and stock. Yeah, you can't do that. You can't do that with some people do that and they love it. I'm telling you, I listen to shit and the Corey Rich and sentencing where multiple people said they became close and tight with the people that killed their family members and tried to get them out of prison because they reformed themselves. It happens all the time. What? It's crazy as fuck. You didn't watch that sentencing. You're out. But the, but the, but the victims have to invite the conversation, right? You can't just know why they just write letters saying they apologize and then they think about it and some people go, man, well, you know, if they're, if they're really reforming, let me see if they're really trying. And then they write something back and who knows? It happens. I wouldn't do it personally. You're telling Ted Bundy could have written the families of those girls from Florida state? Yeah. If you wanted to, you're right. any letter you want to anybody, unless there's an active restraining order against you, you can write it a letter to anybody. That's so sick. That you want. Yeah, it's something, like I said, some people want it. I think it's crazy, but that's some people want. By the way, profilers that looked at him also think that he might have multiple personalities, Leslie Yang. We're not sure. Yeah, he's currently inmate 419-862, New Mexico Department of Corrections, MSNBC, did a documentary segment, including an in-sell interview with Robert on camera in his prison clothes, holding a Bible. All he talked about was God, and there's nothing he'd done that God didn't forgive him for, didn't apologize, just said that God told me I'm good. So 2013, Christina Trecker writes a letter to the editor that is just scathing. Basically, this is who my son was that you don't really care about, essentially, people out there. So, yeah, it's pretty long. Otherwise, I'd read it right now, the whole thing. But either way, she says, thanks to the McCormick Elementary School, I still have pictures of him as he grew, basically. Oh, yeah, you get one every year. You get one every year because Frye cut the picture taken short. They also say that Alex was. They talk about another guy, the owner of the store. Yeah. It's actually an interesting letter to the editor, but never mind, June 2019. Okay, Bobby's still on death row. There's tons of challenges. They don't have the drugs to do it anymore. It's a mess. So, this is when he found Jesus, he's walking around with a Bible, telling everybody that he's always holding a Bible. This is a prop for him that he can. If anybody ever holds a Bible up to show you how good they are, it means they're a fucking liar. And shoot that Bible out of his hand like blazing saddles. He's full of shit. So, New Mexico Supreme Court there. By the way, in the last half century, they have only carried out one execution. To 50 years? To 50 years, who was sentenced to death for kidnapping, raping and murdering a nine-year-old girl. He fucking earned it. He abducted her to her brother's ranch, retortured and raped her and shot her in the head. A nine-year-old and her body was discovered in a shallow grave. Jesus Christ. So, anyway, there's all these appeals here. There's Fry and then there is the other guy, Timothy Allen. They're both the two guys on Death Row. So, they go over the whole thing here and they said that there's no meaningful distinction justifying their continued isolation as the only two scheduled for execution. So, the court vacates both their death sentences and rescences both of them, the life in prison. Commutes them. Commutes them. But I mean, now he's got four consecutive life sentences. Yeah, these totally fucked here. Under New Mexico's math though, basically, the math takes him out to 165 years before he could get parole, even go for a meeting. There's a chance. There's a chance. For Tim Allen, though, life meant an additional 25 years tacked on, it was an existing sentence. And so, he would have to serve 55 years before beginning parole, which could actually happen. Wow, that's crazy. What did you do? Just murdered somebody that. Yeah, he murdered like a 17-year-old, I believe. No, a woman, he was horrible. I think it's Florida, Vista. I wanted to say something, 82 of small-town murder. Bobby in prison, he's at the penitentiary of New Mexico in Santa Fe, number 5, 6, 8, 5, 9, maximum security wing. Yeah, he's at 165 years. Leslie Eng here has 25 years tacked on his sentence, consistent with the Allen treatment, because he, too, has been involved in the cases. So, he'll be in prison, at least, his late 70s. Leslie Eng. The eclectic is closed down. The building's still there. And people show up and do you two shots of the outside of the fucking joint there. Joseph Fleming was buried at the Green Lawn Cemetery in Farmington. Matthew Trekkers buried near him in the same cemetery. There. So, yeah, Donald Tosi's family said they did a, like, a Navajo ceremony is quiet, private, religious, cultural thing. And I don't know where Betty Lee ended up, but I'm sure they took her somewhere respectfully. Shiprock, it's fucking cold up there, man. So, in the media, this was a forensic files episode, season 10, episode 24 on the floor, and also the book Monster Slayer by Robert Scott. So, there you go. That's Farmington, New Mexico, everybody. What a fucking mess of a town and an awful story. If you enjoyed that story, well, you're sick fucking, we love you for it, thank you. And also, please give us a review on whatever app you're listening on, or thumbs up on Netflix. All that should help tremendously. Follow us on social media. We are @smalltammerter on Instagram, @smalltampot on Facebook. Shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of your tickets. Come see us for a live show. Also merchandise, everything from coffee mugs, to skateboards. Come see us, Royal Oak is sold out, but we have Minneapolis and Milwaukee. Milwaukee, September 18th, Minneapolis, September 19th. Those Milwaukee tickets are getting, well, grab those tickets if you want 'em. Minnesota, get your shit together. 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Frank Gary Howard. - Frank Gary Howard. - That was a wild story, Frank, thanks brother. - You're amazing, Frank. - We got to talk to you, Frank Jesus. - You got quite the tale, thank you. - Yeah, Gary Howard is in high point, I think that's North Dakota. - Gary. - Dylan Carrico and Betty, are Beth Bue, Bue, Bue. - Oh, thanks for the bowl, too. - Thank you all so much, you're amazing. Other producers this week are Brendan Abel, who is Vasquez Spendin' Clark, Penny Boyce. Happy hour, check it out in Splendora, Texas. - Some of them are Rayville, Nathan Rose, Monsonja, happy birthday. - Happy birthday. These are like a lot of our old school favorites these weeks. - It's a bunch of people that jumped on to love it. - Thank you all this week, thank you all so much. - Other producers this week, Olivia Colwell, and then also another Olivia. I don't know if they're related, it's possible. Chloe Miller, Rain Ellery, William InScape. We've been around for a while, he may have just gotten right back into Patreon. - Diana with no last name, Ashley Carey, Matt Scherzer, Anna Pinero, Tony Bauer, Melissa Gerber, Lindsay Cook, Kiki with no last name, Boogey and your Butt. - Oh. - I wish she didn't. - Marissa W. - Please don't. - Kristen Elric, Michael with no last name, Dustin Grace, Angela Warren or DeAngela. I don't know, there wasn't an apostrophe. Tina Raidon, check it, Jay Nutt, Michelle Davis, Cara Boutcher, butcher probably, Jeanette with no last name, Leon French, Nicole Smith, Anna's daughter, I imagine, Kelsey Jones, John Archer, Aaron Maxson, Julie Parrish, Ram with no last name, John Finnegan, Heather Page, Samara Samara, Samara Jenkins. - Probably thank you, all right. Freddie Smith, Brian D's or DS, I don't know, Jonathan Graves, Maddie Hall, Larry Baker, Jr., Scott McDonald, Dustin Shenalt, Karen Schumaker, Danny with no last name, Ashley Marks, Alec Hadad, Denise Deige, or Dei, D-A-I-G-H, that's Deige usually, Sandy Pocock, Pocock, Ingrid Mayer, Meyer, maybe Kyla with no last name, Terry with no last name, Lauren with no last name, Sam Fenster, Lori Sullivan, Elizabeth Heitner, Eileen Schilling, Melissa Hernandez, KK, Sarah with no last name, No, no, with no last name, please no, no. Haley Yee, Jackson Baxterson, Zach with no last name, Joey Matthew, Heather Pates, Michael Penland, Penn Land, Trevor Wood, Shane Philbin, Patrick Haggardy, Alan Cress, Lil Pumpkinhead, whatever that means. Sarah Black, Jessica Roberson, what is it? - Tiny and orange, it's one of those. - And that's what it's all about. - Neil, I imagine, was that Neil Gatton? - N-I-L-L-L. - N-N-N-L. - I-A. or Neal. That's Neal, right? I don't know. Yeah, it's got Neal, and foreign from America. And McGee. That's probably a British person going to foreign, my ass. Joanne Sagar, a birch heart with no last name, Mel Coss A. Z. I don't know what that means. Vanessa O'Connor, Beth Churchill, Nigel Hanan, Hanan, Cambie with no last name, Byron Ma, Rhett Reed, Tyler Libby, Kitteni Sharaya, Kelsey Chekk, I don't like the Czech Republic, Jolene Naven, Cindy Gamble, R, this show brought up two by the letter R. Brian Crawford, Hannah Marie Mayer, Pluto with no last name, Kristen Hawks. Nope, that's Christopher, holy fuck, two different people. Jen with no last name, Emily Boyke, Nick, what is this? 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