Meaningful Conversations — Growth, Innovation, and the Future of Water

[MUSIC PLAYING] Welcome to Meaningful Conversations with Anise. I'm your host, Anise Bakwell. The purpose of this podcast is to invite you in to Meaningful Conversations with inspiring women from the water industry and beyond. In each conversation with our guest, we explore the future that we desire and plant seeds for so many beautiful possibilities and intentions. Each woman brings a unique and thoughtful perspective adding to the tapestry of what will serve our global human community. Water runs through our bodies, our homes, our communities, and our environments. It reminds us of how connected we are as a human species on this incredible planet. These conversations are about so much more than the water industry. They are about what we want for our collective future globally, whether that is tomorrow, a year from now, or 50 years from now. The conversations are about slowing down, tuning in, and noticing what is emerging. We co-create in real time. My hope is that through these conversations, we somehow get to know each other collectively. And when we gather in person in different places all over the world, it will feel like a reunion instead of an introduction. Thank you for joining us, for giving us a chance. I hope you find these conversations useful, hopeful, and energizing. I am honored you are here. On this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Kamakshi Sharma. She is the director of marketing and strategy at Aquatec. She is also an engineer like me and in this conversation, our love of engineering shines through. We delve into some of the ways Kamakshi is seeing the future possibilities of a more circular economy. You will hear me diving in to the technical details a bit more than I normally do on this episode. I just couldn't help it. I hope you enjoy this delightful conversation. I got to have with Kamakshi, and I love it that we geeked out over water together in this one. So I am so happy to have you here because I feel like we are long overdue for a conversation. So why not do it on the podcast, I suppose. So welcome. Thanks for your time for doing this today. I'm excited to just get caught up, and I think the cards will help us sort of get started in that, and then yeah, we'll go from there. So I just shuffled the cards in front of you. I'm just picking the top one. I'm gonna show you, oh, it's the growth card. Can you see that? - Yeah. - Okay. So what does that card tell you about from where you're standing now? What is that card? How does it inform you about your sort of desire for the future of the water industry? And we've kept this broad because I really believe that we can't really think of a human future without water. And so yeah, so just how does that start to speak to you about what you're hoping for, what your desires are, what do you see sort of from your unique perspective? - Yeah, so I think the water industry is at a precipice for growth in that we have a lot more capability to impact the world around us, especially as the conversation around climate is changing. Before water was kind of considered an ancillary part of industrial systems, for example, but now it's kind of coming into the forefront and very much, you know, a part of the conversation for industries around the world. Similarly with municipalities because we're dealing with so much water scarcity, water is coming into the forefront as a conversation early on when municipalities are making sure that they can adequately manage the resource. - And sustain the growth that some of them are seeing. And we know that there's some substantial growth. I mean, especially in North America, I mean, I can speak for Canada, we're seeing such growth that it has to come into that conversation, but yeah, at the municipal level. - You know, when we think about growth in the water industry, what kind of growth inspires you or sort of lights you up? Because I know we can sort of go through growth, our market share increases, and we can have all these really practical business things. But I'm really curious about what part of this sort of ignites you and do you get excited about? - For me, I think the biggest thing that excites me is water becoming sexy. - Yeah, that's fun. - I think so far water has been kind of one of those things. Like it's, you know, people are managing plants and people don't really talk about what's happening. I think water is becoming a lot more a part of the conversation. And also on the flip side, I think there are so many new industries that are coming up and developing so many new technologies. And water is really kind of at the forefront of that conversation, whether it comes to semiconductor, microelectronics, or critical minerals, or battery recycling, or data centers or anything. I think water is kind of a part of that conversation, which is really exciting. It's not just the traditional industries anymore. For me, that's exciting. I think the other thing that's really exciting is the growth of diversity in our industry. So earlier, it was kind of a male dominated field. There's a lot more women that are entering the industry early on. It's changed a lot from even when I joined 10 years ago into this industry. Now when I walk a conference floor, I just see so many more women there, so many more diverse opinions, women aside as well, which was not the case when I started in this industry 10 years ago. Yeah, and I think we're seeing that sort of from at all angles, but not like it's starting. I don't know how prevalent it is. I think when I started, there was a lot of sort of young women who now I see them, they're like, they're managing the divisions. And that's really starting to see that growth and then that attraction as well. I was just with a company and we were doing some work, sort of with some, you know, some people were sort of seasoned engineers, but some were like that beginning of the engine, like they're beginning of their career. And I think we had equal men and women in the room of that in that young space. And so, and from all different backgrounds, like, you know, the diversity wasn't just between genders, but from all different backgrounds, from different countries, from different perspectives, coming in, which I think is really powerful. And I'd like to see that growing. I sort of think it'd be nice to walk like a weftech floor or a big huge conference floor and really see that come to life even more, I think will be hugely beneficial. I love that you're bringing this, especially the industrial aspect to it because I think, well, a lot of the conversations we've had have been a little bit more, maybe munisply focused or, you know, in lots of different ways, but in that industrial world, I have been a little bit out of that, that sort of specific loop for a little while. And what are you seeing there? Are they sort of leading some of the innovation edge? I know that for municipal water treatment, it's traditionally been very conservative because we're not, we don't wanna mess with public health. And it's been that long story, but are you seeing some of the new innovations in water treatment come into the industrial realm first? - Yeah, I think so. I think in industrial water, one thing that's really good about industrial water is especially when you're not working on a bid system with a bigger industrial company. I think industrial companies are more willing to work and co-develop with you. So if you're trying to test a new technology, you know, in wastewater or membranes, membranes is something I'm really passionate about and I work with closely. A lot of industrial companies are willing to pilot test with you and kind of work closely on you testing their actual feed and kind of validating the solution for them, which is a really exciting thing. I think, I think when it comes to actually getting a technology into the market, industrial water companies are good or industrial applications to do it because you can kind of work closely with the customer and you're not working in a situation where you're necessarily dealing with kind of a complicated buying process necessarily. If you're working with a very customer, it's an exciting place to test things and actually develop a solution with a customer based on their feed. - Yeah, awesome. And how are those and those co-partnerships? I'm assuming that you just said that they're starting to come up earlier in the conversation. So it's not like the new plants being developed and then someone's thinking like, oh my God, and we have to slap a water treatment plant on the back end of this or else the municipality won't accept our waste of water. So how is that sounding and looking different than maybe it has in the past and yeah, how's that sort of unfolding? - Yeah, so I mean, okay, I'll take an example. So we were working with, and this is one of our customers in India called ACG pharmaceuticals and they had a very complicated pharmaceutical wastewater that they needed to treat. Pretty early in the conversation, we got their sample and we developed a solution that had many unit operations of our technologies. And we did a lot of like close piloting with them where they sent us different feeds from different parts of the system. And it was a very collaborative process of kind of testing in our facility then at their site and so on. And we were able to actually get in our new technology at that time, which was advanced vacuum memory and distillation into the field because we worked closely with them. In that development, basically with them, we decided we would test a variety of their different streams from different plants and validate that technology closely. And now it's running in multiple of their facilities. So it worked really well because we were able to kind of fine tune the technology solution based on it. It wasn't just AVMD that we offered. We offered a stream of technologies, but that process we were able to offer AVMD closely and work with the customer in actually solving their challenge. While still making sure we are able to innovate. Yeah, and do you see, I love that. Like that's sort of the, if I think about what I like miss a little bit about like being right in the thick of things is sort of that whole, that piloting process that like back and forth, that exploration together, which is so fun. And do you see the growth, so in that growth phase? Is it really around in that industrial realm? Is it that the awareness? is getting higher, it's at the demands on the effluent getting more stringent globally. Like, you know, this example was in India, which I love to sort of widen our conversation, like, into many parts of the world. Is that, like, do you see that growth because our awareness is getting elevated and people are responding to that? Is that, like, are the sustainable development goals from the UN sort of, like, pushing some of that? I know that we, I know there's a lot more conversation about the circular economy and it's becoming much more of a conversation in the water space than I've ever seen it before. And so from your lens, what is, like, what's shifting in that dynamic? And I'm also curious about the people who are sort of pushing that forward. Like, not only are the rules, maybe the rules getting stricter, but like, how are you seeing those passions emerge? Or maybe even the growth in our mindsets as the professionals in the industry that are saying, like, yes, let's go do this. And maybe the pull from the industry to say, come on, let's go. Water folks, like, we got to figure this all out together. Yeah. So I think it's a few things. Obviously, the regulations are getting more stringent. There's more push on ZLD and MLD solutions in industrial, which makes a big difference. We talked, I feel like we, like, dabbled in that, like, literally almost 20 years ago in a few different areas of the world that we're looking at it. But I feel like that's becoming, you know, Israel's been looking at that for a long time. There's some places in China that we're looking at it a long time ago. But it almost felt like at the time, like, are we ever going to get to this? Is it ever going to become mainstream conversation? But it sounds like it's moving in that direction, which is. Yeah. I think ZLD is hugely prevalent. Aquatech was actually a pioneer in ZLD because we started, we're one of the pioneers and evaporator and crystallization solutions. But beyond that, I think there's also a big move and push for not only ZLD, but also MLD solutions. And even on ZLD, moving towards membrane-based ZLD, typically ZLD has been, I mean, one of the challenges sometimes has been the energy of ZLD. But then on the sub-site, it's been an important solution, especially to deal with industrial waste waters and, you know, meet the regulations. Yeah. I think there's obviously a regulation part of this aspect of this argument. But I think beyond that, I think what's changing is customers are, or industrial manufacturers basically are often having to talk about water earlier because they have limited, there's more scarcity in the world and there's limited water you can pull from the grid as well. Additionally, the water that they're having to deal with is becoming more and more challenging as industrial processes are evolving. They're more challenging contaminants. There's more challenging feed water considerations. All of those things, like for example, semiconductors need extremely high-perity water. That sort of thing. Yeah, and it's a good point that the feed water is that they're dealing with. Not only is it is there a scarcity piece around that, but also the, you know, we've talked about, I don't know if you know, Lee and Foa. She was in the hour blue world and she talks about how not that long ago, so many of our rivers were drinkable, right? And that's kind of her thing is how can we make rivers drinkable again? And then the flip side of that is, oh yeah, anyone trying to pull in any type of feed water, whether it's into industrial or to municipal, is that they're dealing with, or possibly dealing with more challenging, implement waters or feed waters into their process. So more technology or treatment is required. Yeah. And there's also, I mean, one more thing that's going on in all of this, which maybe is the, it's early stage right now, but I think things are moving is like, valorizing brines or making value out of your water resources as well, whether it's taking the valuable salts out of it or whatever it is. That type of conversation is also, I think, an important one as time passes, because it's not just about treating the water. Sometimes it's also about what you can extract from the water, other resources, whether it's different types of salts and so on. I think that conversation will be changing in the next 10 years as well. Yeah, and that's really where we get to the, the circular economy conversation is that is there valuable things to pull out of there? And then maybe is there a market for that feel like I doubled in the desalination world when it was unpopular still? Like, when it's a long time ago? And there was often that conversation is what do we do with the brine? And is there something that we can do? Or I'd love to know where, why do you think those conversations are shifting? And what's changed in the marketplace that says some of this brine might be more valuable? Like, what's shifting or what's developing? They are that again, some of these conversations, I feel like they were all they started. I was kind of in the infancy of a lot of these conversations, but now I kind of stepped away from the industry in a, and not completely, but like not so in the technical details. So I'm curious about what has developing in the market space that says, yeah, there might be some value for what we're pulling out of this. Yeah, so there are manufacturers who do detergents, they manage soda ash, chloralculi, other types of manufacturers that can kind of be off-takers for this. And they can take some of these valuable salts and use them for their manufacturing process. So I think there's a demand for that in the market. I think, I don't know if you remember, but some time ago they had kind of mentioned that some of this, the salt from ZLD can be used even for like road salt or other things. Yes, I was kind of rudimentary, but I think there are more of the market things that's evolving. I mean, companies like Neom and others are also developing things at the forefront as well. But I think when you come back to why, the realm of membranes is also changing, where we treat these things more, maybe economically and more energy efficient, than the traditional solutions of evaporators and crystallizers. Or we be a little more competitive, you might still need evaporator and crystallizer, but to hit a ZLD situation. We have a partnership with a membrane company, FTSHTool, which they manufacture and develop OARO membranes. And forward, most of these membranes as well, they can reach a very high concentration of salt. They can reach up to like 220 to 30 grams per liter salt concentration. And that kind of changes the conversation a bit because you can get to that high concentration of salt and generate those salts a little more sustainably. Yeah, awesome. So I think in general, I think the technologies are evolving as well to get to those. And I think there's a demand of a market that can offtake those or like they act. It's like merging, right? Like they're coming together, like those more sophisticated, you know, manufacturing is coming. And then with the mix of the membrane development, that you can get to that higher concentration that it feels like it's something more reasonable. If you're talking about traditional OARO, you're at like 40% salt, you're not at something that's a meaningful concentration. Or that wouldn't require a significant further processing to get to that value that's in there. So the technology is changing the conversation basically. And I also think the customers have a demand for this. And frankly, like the water industry has been decelerating for quite a while. There I think there'll be, it'll be an interesting realm of opportunity for us to actually, you know, be in the value conversation beyond the water as well from the process. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. I haven't been in those like those deep conversations in a long time. So it's kind of nice to get like a little, a little cold notes version of what's been going on. When we think about the water scarcity, I'd like to, it sounds like you've put a lot, you sort of deal with this a lot and a lot of thought into this. It feels super scary to just keep talking about water scarcity or that. I know we can't look away from it. But when we talk about water scarcity, what does it really mean? And then what is their action happening that's yes, water is getting scarce or I don't know is more scarce or there's just more people in locations where it's scarce, right? Like there's all those complexities of the conversation. And then is there anything from your end that you think about the technology is getting better so that if we have more contaminated water from more scarce areas and then retreating the wastewater hopefully to a higher level, that's going sort of back into those waterways. Is there a world where through this process that we virtually end up cleaning the water as we go so that we're sort of filling those places back up with better water than what we're dealing with now? Do you know, like it's sort of like the water cycle conversation in this is I don't know and I don't even know that I've ever really thought about it like this until I'm hearing you talk, but I think about how do we overcome the water scarcity issue at the same time we have to treat the water that we have from the scarce sources that we have. And so from your lens is there I'm sure there's lots that I'm missing, but like can you start to fill in the dots about what does this look like for an overall sort of water availability on the planet? And then is it possible that the quality of the water improves over time because of this? Yeah, it's a pretty complicated and nuanced question, but I think yeah, I mean I can take a stab at answering it. I think one one thing that's really important in all of this is to remember that I remind my friends of this sometimes as well when everyone says you know we need to use less water, we need to use less water because we're we have water scarcity. I kind of say yeah that's true, we should do that, you know, we need to be judicious citizens of the world, but I think at the same time I think an important part of this to remember is like industrial manufacturers are the largest consumers of water in the world. What we can do as a with agriculture being in that bug. I would say industry and agriculture, like, okay, great industry and agriculture. Let's correct our The largest consumers of water in the world. It's not really only about consumption It's about what they are putting back into the environment as well because it's not really I mean not everyone's doing zero liquid discharge You know there is Dischard back into the environment. It's about leaving it a better place than it is and allowing them to have closed-loop systems I think I look at reuse as one of the biggest opportunities for us as a market or a water industry to solve because I think That that's a lot more impact that we can drive than for example taking a five-minute less shower I think I should do those things. I think those things are really important But I also think like in less your mental health really needs a five-minute longer shower Right like and I say it almost jokingly, but like it's kind of this like constant Balance that there's only so much like that the individual can do and that there's these like systematic We have to look at it more of a systematic way Yeah, so if you're listening in your mental health really needs a five-minute long nice warm shower Please please do that. I know the industry still Yeah Yes, so sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but so the the reuse piece you can continue Yeah, no, I was just saying like I think I think as we can work with it as an industry for reuse I think that's the maximum impact. I think we can drive. I also think desolination is a huge part of that conversation whether it's water or brackish water desolation because I think that there's a lot of untapped resources that we can better help with dealing with the scarcity issue and so much so many of us live on a coast or near a coast right like if you think of it The world population. It's like so coastal in so many places a lot of the most water scarce regions because of deserts and so on Many times are also near some somewhat near a coast. Yeah, I think that really helps I mean you've seen in the middle east how they've tapped into desolination and that's really helped them yeah deal with the inherent Challenges of being in a desert climate. I do think desolination is a large part of the conversation Reuse is a huge part of the conversation, but also just municipalities, you know if you work on the municipal side working to better Make those systems efficient. I think it's a really big thing too and a big frontier for for us because not only is it about having the municipal Palates building more water systems or more capability. It's about making those systems efficient so that we're not having so much wasted as well So I think there's there's a lot of work to be done, but I'm excited about it because I think scarcity is not really The puzzle. I think it's more about solving Availability the water is probably there. It's about solving how to make it more available and and how to manage with what we have better Yeah, yeah, I agree. What is giving you? I can see it just like light up people won't be able to see your face because it's only an audio podcast But I can see your face light up like when you said you're excited your whole face lit up and so what's that like what's alive in you when you talk about that like what's the hope what is fueling the hope what is that what is that excitement like why is that so I can just like see it coming off your face when you said that and I just want to Know what that is so that other people if they're there might be days that they don't find as much hope I thought oh, what is that that like totally fuel your whole expression when you said that yeah I just think I think what fuels me is like working with customers to solve challenges And I just feel like there are so many challenges to solve that actually will drive impact that's really what keeps me excited I think sometimes when we're in our day to day we get kind of lost in our emails and meetings or other things that are going on process But at the end of the day like when we take a step back and we think about like how much the world is changing but how much potential we have to impact The conversation about climate I don't like to think about it in a depressing oh climate change is happening and it's really terrible I like to think a bit of like okay, I can do something to like lessen the impact or at least Improve water availability that keeps me motivated I think when you bring up Climate change because water and climate change haven't always been much of a conversation right? It's hasn't been we think about greenhouse gases We think about carbon footprint when we think about climate and I know that conversation is changing and from your perspective How are those two linked and what is the what's the impact that the water Freshness in the water industry can have on that like how how does how does that show up in your world? I know there's lots of different ways, but for you how does that show up not really sure how to answer this question and ease That's okay. I think I don't think water is the part of the conversation that's about like Climate change necessarily, but what climate change leads to droughts and other parts of extreme water events I mean extreme events that involve water at their core so droughts for example or floods or other types of extreme events I think have a big impact when you think about it from you from immunosupples standpoint for a second those types of extreme events really stress our water systems and lead to a lot of challenges I mean people lose water for days for months sometimes I know situations but I think finding a way to Make systems resilient is a big part of what our challenges as a water industry or and also our opportunity I also I always like to think of challenges with an opportunity. Yeah We have a lot potential to impact the resiliency of our water systems But also with industrial customers make sure that they are not impacting or further Increasing the impact on climate change as well through our water. Yeah And our industries thinking about that a little bit differently like as they're designing for their water treatment plants Whether it's feed water or waste water that there like that wasn't much of a conversation We we would design for you know high fluctuating periods and with industry a lot of it's pretty stable If they have a 24/7 operations, it's a little bit more consistent But I feel like now at least from a municipal side of course they're starting to think about how do we deal with the influx of these severe weather events Whether it's like how do we handle all of this rushing extra water to our waste treatment or what are the impacts of all of that Rushing water how is that impacting like our sources right how is that disrupting the rivers and and all of those things from an industrial standpoint are they is that influencing the design are they thinking about that in a little bit of a different way since these sort of weather events Has shifted due to climate change I think from a perspective of design I think design is getting impacted in the sense that you're having to design for more changes in temperature And also you're having to design for more fluctuations and water quality because of these types of events yeah that is That's all that all gets back to the conversation of the water is always getting harder to trade But I think on the flip side like I also think it's an opportunity in that industries are having to think about water more early in their process Because it's an important part of how they show that they're impacting the world around them You know, whether it's to their investors through ESG goals or to the communities around them Or even for their own corporate mandates that's a big part of the conversation now and also for Municipalities that they're in they don't want to be polluting those municipalities So that conversation is happening kind of earlier than it probably was before It's not necessarily a later stage conversation It's kind of you know when you're when you're coming when you're building a facility or even when you're maintaining a facility Like how do we make sure we're not impacting around us? Yeah, it's part of that value add to the community and risk assessment conversation probably upfront And I and we are seeing examples of ESG goals and targets from corporations and their own sort of policies I've seen that shift a lot in the last I'd say 10 years with a real meaningful step forward And a real partnership in the communities that they're building Some of these like especially new I think it around new plants. This is more of an easy It's an easier conversation right in these new areas new new communities that they might be building or growing Into that it's almost this this nice mix of the corporations shifting their policies the community demanding them to And then you know working within the the local municipality that they're impacting or the watershed that they're pulling from And really making that plan and I love to hear that it's happening more and more sort of upfront And with the right partners like you know with people like you Okay, so just my last question is if you You know sort of could wave a magic wand. I feel like you have something in here I don't usually ask this question, but if you could sort of wave a magic wand and really like impact Like what was it? What would be the biggest impact that you think could be made say in the next 10 years With a magic wand in this water space It's a hard question I mean I think hang on I'm just trying to think of the right way to answer Yeah put your thoughts together Can I ask you a leading question maybe Of course Yeah Would you like this to be more technical or would you like this to be more like Like from you from your perspective just like from the human Kamakshi who has dedicated her life to the water industry or at least a portion of your life Like maybe it's like technology acceptance or policy And if this is too hard of a question we can just scrap it it's no big deal I just felt like I don't know I haven't asked a question I just kind of felt like you had something in there that I thought let's pull that right out to the surface I could wave a magic wand I think one of the most interesting things over the next 10 years would be Technology adoption improving that process I think there's a lot going on in the world and a lot being developed that never really makes it to the market Because it gets stuck somewhere in pilot purgatory as we might call it. Yeah. Yeah. I think a part of waving that magic wand also means like improving, improving collaboration between different partners. Yeah. This is a magic wand question. So I know that one wave may not fix all of those things, but I do think jokes apart. I think one of the biggest things we can do as an industry is continue to innovate and improve the technologies we bring to market and how quickly they get to market because I think there's a lot more that we can provide quickly to the industries, but sometimes things get stuck somewhere in between. Same with municipalities. Many municipality water infrastructure plans are aging and kind of giving new technology a new life to those is a huge part of it. I can only come with better technology adoption quicker. Waving a magic wand would be improving that process so it doesn't take seven to ten years for things to make it to life sometimes. Yeah. It feels like we don't have that time to wait anymore. We had that time to wait, I think, at a point in time, but and maybe when a lot of that was sort of set up, but it feels like that's it's not the time in our evolution to for it to take that long. Yeah. I mean, if other industries like AI and can you imagine seven to ten years? Yeah. I mean, things have changed overnight for some of those industries. I'm not saying we're that fast and obviously we're working with physical real things that involve health. Yeah. You know, those things take time, but the speed, I think, is a huge thing that I would I would really think would work really better if we could wave that magic wand. Yeah. And the mindset to believing that the technology really can do what it says it's going to do. Right? Like, I think that there's a, I don't know, we believe in so much technology. And yet, it feels like the water industry is just like lagging in that sort of belief even though we've made all kinds of roads. Like, you go to the hospital and there's like updates there and like, your computer is getting a download and update every few days and your phone's getting updates regularly. And I know that they're not like, you know, physical tangible, like pumps and valves and, you know, sand filters. In a lot of cases, still, if we're talking municipalities, right? But there just seems to be a little bit of a hesitancy that, yeah, if we could overcome that and sort of move that. And I think it's coming. I think it's a great magic wand answer. And I think a lot of people would agree with you. A lot of people are trying in a lot of ways to move things across the line. But there's just so many different factors that play. Yeah. Yeah. Speed is a very simplistic way to put it. But I think that ease of collaboration is a huge part of it too. Yeah. The ease of collaboration. And then also that opening of our mindset of of which is essentially the whole point of this podcast is like, what is possible? And how do we move from sort of the reason why I asked you kind of dig into the scarcity question? This is all coming together now. And then with your like magic wand question is I think that there's a way of looking through all of our challenges through the lens of like, you know, sort of like fear and scarcity and protecting and like all of these things that are they're all okay. And I thought, can we start to allow some ideas, some opening, some really wonderful possibilities over the next 10 years? So sort of how you said every time you see sort of a challenge, you like to think of it as an opportunity. And I think if we take that one step further, it's like, what is the possibility? So there's a possibility that good technology gets adopted quicker, makes a bigger impact, maybe shrinks our footprint, maybe saves some old systems that improves what we have that reuses in the places that we're already, you know, treating waste water instead of trying to find a new source for clean water is that we just reuse. We add on one more step and we're reusing to at least be able to feed the golf courses and our toilets and art. You know, all these places where reuse is very acceptable. I know that there's places pushing it right to drinking water, which is, you know, we, you and I know as technology people in the water industry that that's all possible. But I think there is that and how do we open that up? And I think there's possibilities that certainly I haven't thought of. That's why we're having this conversation with so many people from so many different lenses is, you know, how do we open up all these possibilities, having these possibility conversations so that who knows what happens then, right? But I just know when we, when we believe in a big wide, beautiful world of possibilities, it sort of, it heals our nervous system a bit. We can all take like a big like sigh of relief and say like, yeah, how do I participate in moving towards that possibility instead of only moving from like a fear based sort of sense of it, right? Then we sort of have that choice. And so I think you gave us lots of reasons to move towards possibility and lots of ideas even through, you know, the examples I shared of where it's going and your belief that in the next 10 years, there is a big shift in what we can pull valuable from water and how do we make that circular economy a little more real, you know, there's, we can talk about it a lot, but like there is ways that it's going to become more real. So yeah, so thank you for breathing sort of possibility into all of our ears and and giving us a perspective that we haven't had yet on the podcast. I'd love to this perspective. Thank you. We all have the potential to do something to help our world as we adapt to a changing climate. And I think that water is a huge part of it. And everyone who's listening to this who's in the water industry is placed really well to drive impact. And that's a powerful thing. I don't think everyone who works on different things in the world can say that they can drive so much impact to the world. Yeah, definitely. And if they even just borrowed like a little bit of that sparkle that you had in your face during this conversation, then I have no doubt that we can move mountains over the next few years. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you, Anise. This episode of Meaningful Conversations is brought to you in partnership with Grandfoss, a global leader in water solutions who promise to respect, protect, and advance the flow of water. [Music]