Max Cavalera (Soulfly)

(upbeat music) - Popcars. - Welcome to No Prize from God, episode eight. No prize from God features conversations with creative people about belief, unbelief, and everything between. Our guest today is Heavy Music Icon, Max Cavalera. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) I first had the opportunity to interview Max back in 1998. I've interviewed him several times since, but more importantly, I've gotten to become good friends with both Max and a particular his wife, Gloria Cavalera. Gloria, of course, is also Max's longtime manager. Gloria and I, together with our friend and Mastered-On Manager, Nick John, managed the band Killer Bee Killed Together, which features Max Cavalera, Greg from the Dillinger Escape Plan, Troy from Mastered-On, and Ben from Converge. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) For those of you who may be unfamiliar with Max Cavalera or might need a refresher course, I'm gonna read a little bit of something I wrote just a few years ago, and then we're gonna jump right into this conversation. Max Cavalera is the walking embodiment of creative energy of all of the diverse layers of urgency that are possible from that select few whose artistic output defines genres. Mystic Shaman, protest singer, revolutionary hero, everyday metalhead, furious consumer of heavy music of all shades, husband, father, leader, songwriter. Cavalera reigns as the adoptive tribal chief of a generation of fans, stretching from the roughest slums of South America to the coldest confines of Russia. Anywhere that people are disenfranchised, the songs of Soul Fly can serve as their anthem. Armed with Max Cavalera's four string guitars, unmistakable growl, and instantly recognizable riffs. The muddy tones and constant rhythmic bounce of Soul Fly has retained its gritty edge while pushing the boundaries of what's possible in metal. A trailblazing pioneer and musician with millions of albums sold, who nevertheless retains bound the street cred due to his grimy, raw, and undeniable authenticity. Max Cavalera is one of the most prolific artists around with heavy music as ever known. There's Cavalera Conspiracy, which reunited Max with his brother and former bandmate Igor Cavalera. There was the brutal attack of nail bomb, Max's collaboration with Alex Newport from Fudge Tunnel, which also included members of the dead Kennedys, frontline assembly, biohazard and neurosis when they played on stage. And there's Killer B killed, which I've just mentioned. And of course, there's Max's unassailable work as Sepaltura's founder, leading the Brazilian band from their badass lofai beginnings through their era of sophisticated thrash classics, like Arise and Beneath the Remains, up through the cultural landmark that is Roots. ♪ Roots, I Roots ♪ ♪ Roots, I Roots ♪ ♪ Roots, I Roots ♪ Soulfly began almost instantaneously after Max's departure from the band he co-founded. The self-titled Soulfly debut sold over half a million copies in the United States alone. Further expanding upon the tribal foundation of Roots with its percussive instrumentation, forays into esoteric sounds and multiple guests. ♪ I am honest to me, I believe in you, my faith ♪ ♪ It never did, it's my day ♪ ♪ All that I am doing can never be ruined ♪ ♪ My soul remains insane ♪ ♪ I for the night ♪ ♪ I for the night ♪ ♪ I for the night, I for the night ♪ ♪ I for the night ♪ Across the multiple Soulfly albums and never-ending tours that have followed, Max's work with the who's who, with a heavy music scene as bandmates, guest musicians, and touring members, including guys from Slipknot, Slayer, Megadeth, Deftones, Radiohead, Stone Sour, Cypress Hill, Machine Head, Devil Driver, Fear Factory, Morbid Angel, Throedown, Forknegar, Will Haven, and Cattle Decapitation among others. Max points to Black Sabbath's symptom of the universe as one of the penultimate riffs of all time. Siding Sabbath's Tony Iomi and Metallica Frontman, James Hetfield is among the riff masters he most admires. Even as Max continues to consume new music from bands like Nails, even as he revisits seminal material from Metallica, Slayer, Corrosion, Conformity, and the like, and indulges his penchant for world music, while getting his hands on his other projects and collaborations, it all adds up to a singular distinct, straightforward and riff-heavy machine, known to the world as Max Caballero. So excited to have Max on no price from God. Max had such an intense and unique upbringing in Brazil. Much of it detailed in his autobiography, My Bloody Roots, from Sepulto Earth's Soulfly and Beyond, which was co-written with journalist Joel McGiver, with a forward by Dave Grohl. Max's life certainly hasn't been without its tragedies from the death of his father to the loss of his stepson, Dana, various struggles over the years with substances, and the legendary falling out with Sepultoora, the band that he left in 1997. Through it all, Max's personality, his public persona and his music, has been defined by this uplifting sense of spirituality, even in the midst of this very aggressive music, and oftentimes tales of darkness and anger. Max has never been shy about his spirituality. He dedicated the first Soulfly album to God, which was, as he says in this conversation himself, a very punk rock move in the metal scene. So here it is, my conversation with Max Caballero. This is no price from God. (upbeat music) ♪ I don't believe in God ♪ ♪ Don't do it everyday ♪ ♪ You haven't thought about your soul, can you be safe ♪ ♪ Or perhaps you think that when you are dead, you're staying in great ♪ ♪ But I'm not a slave ♪ ♪ Till I'm gone ♪ ♪ And telling this is ♪ ♪ Now if you can only send a dollar or two ♪ ♪ Maybe a hell of a lot I can promise to you ♪ ♪ But if you want to see a heaven storm ♪ ♪ Make out a jet for fire and time is on board ♪ ♪ Now they never really hate it ♪ ♪ I want you God, but to God all the people I hate is ♪ ♪ When you feel there's something strong ♪ ♪ I feel that you will keep you warm ♪ ♪ I never let you walk alone ♪ ♪ I love you when you still hate it me ♪ ♪ I keep it when I fall into my knees ♪ ♪ I never say it where I don't breathe ♪ ♪ And then the world won't come to this end ♪ ♪ But I will never be the fatefulest one ♪ So yeah, I want to start off going, you know, early days, early, early days, you know, and some things you talk about in your book and so on. I know that your father passed away when you were pretty young. You know, my mom died when I was 11 and I feel like when you lose a parent around that age, I mean, it's obviously one of the most significant and impactful things that can happen to you. And I don't think I'd even realized until I was in my 20s how much impact it had in the sense of how it shaped my outlook on things and the art and the music that I gravitated towards and the relationships that you have, you know, whether it's with women or with friends and, you know, whatever. So I'm curious, you know, the two of us sharing that in common, I'm curious kind of how that impacted you, you think in what ways that kind of shaped how you see things and, you know, who you became as a person. - Yeah, I think that's for me, I think it's huge. I think I'll go even as far as saying that the reason we became musicians and created Seputura and Starplane Metal, he has everything to do with the death of my father. I think if my father was alive, he wouldn't die. Maybe we wouldn't touch music 'cause we just like soccer, you know, we just really just love going to stadiums. We'd hear him in watching soccer and didn't really care for music at all, was not part of our life at all. And then he passed away in '79 and then in '81, a cousin of ours takes us to see Queen playing live in Brazil and that does it, Queen does it for us, you know what? - Yeah, yeah. - After watching Queen playing live, they were touring for the game. [BLANK_AUDIO] amazing show with lights and great music, you know, Queen's such a great band and it was in the same place that we go see our team play, Palmeiras. And that changed our life, man. So I really believe in two things that, by my father dying, somehow led us to discover music and fell in love with music. And he had, the other thing is his presence, always also a really big part of my, especially my anger, you know, 'cause I've really never understood his death. It was like this kind of like, almost like met a God or something for a while, you know, and why you took him away from us, you know, type thing. And so I think like the early stuff, even though it was really kind of created, ripping off European bands, had a bit of that anger towards God, with stuff like morbid visions and best of devastation, even though it's like copying European bands, name of songs, in the inner, somewhere in the inside of that anger, is a bit of the anger against God for doing that, you know. I'm in peace with it now, most of it. And I understand I think sometimes that just happens. God needs people more than we do and takes them away from us. That's like what happened to Dana in '96, you know. You have to make peace with it, you know, but for a long time, I mean the anger was with me for a long time, from the death of my father. And I think it resulted in a lot of the angry songs that I ended up writing. - Yeah, I think without even realizing it myself, I think I gravitated towards angry music and darker music is a way to kind of process a lot of those feelings and those questions. And yeah, and that similar attitude of feeling like religion and school and every other system kind of failed us, you know. Failed to. - Yeah, and then on top of it, we had this drastic lifestyle change 'cause when my father was alive, we made good money, so we lived really good. We had like a nice house, a nice apartment, had a nice car, we had a house on the beach that we go every weekend. He dies, my mom is in total chaos, man. She's like completely lost, don't know what to do. She grabs the three of us, me, my brother, my sister, move back to Belarus on day where we grew up and we end up living in the back of my grandmother's house in a little room, one bathroom, one little bedroom for the four of us. That kind of shock, like the old son were poor, broke, pissed off, we had to work, had to go work in a factory, you know, we had to work in a shoe factory in a hat factory and all that psychological anger you pissed off about all that, you know. You had it all and you lost it all with one person's death, so much can change just because of one thing, one event, you know. Dad levitated us into heavy stuff after Queen, after we discovered like the purple black stab, but you know, we got into the real heavy stuff, venom and slayer. And that was like perfect music for, you know, like that's what I always say, like the aggressive stuff was perfect music for, you know, 13 year old, the third work concert kid is like, it's a no brainer, man. We embrace the music, like this is what we got, this is our weapon, you know. So I've been covering that shock that contrast from living good to going into a shit hole situation, combined with hating your job, not understanding why your father died, then you have heavy metal in your life, like your savior, which is what saved my life as a matter, if I totally honest, I can say I can definitely save my life, metal save my life, it got me out of Brazil, it gave me so much cool stuff. Of course, the whole ride has real bumpy, you had a lot of stuff like displayed up from Sepertura and the death of Dana and all that stuff I wasn't prepared for, but it doesn't change the fact that metal saved my life. A lot of my friends were into drugs and crime and a lot of them are dead or in jail and we made it out of it, man. We mean they got out of there and made our dream come true to live for music, which is great, you know? - Yeah, absolutely. Were your parents religious at all? Did you come from a religious family? - Yeah, my situation at my house is very strange. My father was Catholic. In fact, he baptized me in the Vatican, which was really crazy. I talked about that in the book. Was a really weird ordeal where he knew some people in the Vatican and we had a trip that's a month before he died. We had a trip to Rome and I didn't know at all what was going on. I was nine years old and next thing I'm in the Vatican without all these priests and people speaking Italian and I was being blasted inside the Vatican on the ground in the Vatican by the catacombs type stuff. It was crazy, you know? It was all organized by my dad. He made the whole set up and I never had a chance to ask him why or why he did it. Why was what was the purpose of all that? I never know the answer. I asked my mom, she doesn't know. And then on my mom's side is totally wild. She is part of this Brazilian religion called Dumboa, which is kind of like, it's a bit like voodoo, you know, it's a bit like Santaria kind of, but it's really popular in Brazil. So they have African gods mixed with Catholic saints and they're all together, they're all the same. (upbeat music) We're in Salvador da Valleja, which was the first capital in Brazil and it was also where they had the largest sport receiving the most amount of African slaves. And so because of its history, there is a very important Afro-Brazilian community here and this is also where Candomble, which is an Afro-Brazilian religion started. (upbeat music) This is a very important Candomble Tejero or temple, one of the most important ones in the country and it's also a national heritage site. And tonight they're actually hosting a big important ceremony and we've come here to see it. (upbeat music) Candomble is an Afro-Brazilian religion, which was formed by several traditions of the African continent. (upbeat music) There were several inflows of the slave trade. They brought with them the religion and their faith and their social structure. (upbeat music) In this tradition of Candomble, we believe in one God, which is called Olo Dumare, the all-powerful almighty God. And then we believe in deities, which are representations of energies of nature. In Candomble, the deities are referred to as auditions. There are hundreds of them reflecting different manifestations of God, like fire, water. (upbeat music) - When the Orishas come to us through their followers, they dance and we believe that the actual deity, it comes to the earth through that body of that person, which for us is something very good because we are able to engage with our deities. - For many years, Candomble was driven underground and the tradition still maintains a level of secrecy. - Candomble was persecuted by the police and the religious authorities in Brazil. So anything that went against it, it was considered savage or witchcraft and had to be just exterminated. - In the temple's design, you can still see how Candomble followers once disguised their traditions from authorities. - For instance, in this altar here, he used to be in the old days, he used to be full of Catholic saints and the Orishas does a door behind the altar and the Orishas used to be hidden inside, okay? The Orishas shrines, they used to be hidden inside in the shelves. - Because when the police would come to check what people were doing here, if they were playing drums and doing African rituals, they would be praying to the Catholic saints. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO] Today, Kendom Blair remains a melting pot of a religion, drawing followers from all over Brazil and the world. So for me, Santa Michael and Oshosi are my protectors, you know, so my protector is Santa Michael, but his name is in African and Kendom Blair religion is Oshosi and it's an amazing world man. The Kendom Blair, they have the Orishas are the transformations of the saints. Each Orishai is a different saint and they all have different colors and different outfits. We use some of it on the roots video, you can see some of it, some of the people dancing with like real stuff on their faces and when you watch the roots video, it's some of the Kendom black people. But my mom was really into that. My father didn't care, he allowed it, he was cool with it. So sometimes we had rituals in my house and about 30 people will come and they'll have like drums and percussion and they had like singing, like music, all these rituals, people being possessed. You know, I used to watch that and it fascinated me, I was totally fascinated by it. There's even one time where my mom got possessed in one of those rituals and I was wearing a venom shirt and she freaked out on my shirt and I had to take my shirt off and throw it away. You know, with the gold, which is some serious shit man, like some really crazy shit. And in those rituals you become possessed and you become other ancestors or sometimes they talk like in baby language, sometimes they talk in language that you don't understand. Really crazy stuff, you know, so the Kendom black religion is really wild and I think it's really, I used to do it today, I loved it when they do a record but now we're involving all the other shots and all the entities and make a full record with percussion and stuff like that. Showing the world that side of the religion, that's really cool, that I think is really powerful, colorful, a lot of cool images and stuff. And my mom became really big on him and after a while there was one point where she actually had to shave her head and live in a little room for a whole month. She had no contact with us, she couldn't talk to us for a whole month and when she came out of the room she became kind of like a priestess of that religion, you know, so it was some heavy stuff, you know, so I stayed in contact with her and she blesses me and stuff and gives me a lot of good energy, you know, whenever I see her. So yeah, I think it's definitely made my outlook on religion much different than other people because I had this other wild, you know, I had the upcoming with my dad, my father being Catholic, I had the Vatican experience and I had my mom with all the condom black experiences, made me realize that spirituality is where I am, you know, that's where I belong. So that's why I like spirituality, I think it's a powerful thing, I think belongs in metal, belongs in music and I think a lot of the stuff we do, a lot of the stuff in metal I think is very spiritual, even sometimes without the bands even knowing they're doing it, it's real connected to spiritual stuff and spirituality is also a real connected to nature which is another thing that I really love and appreciate the nature of the world. So it's pretty amazing stuff, you know, if you really, really dwell into it, you know, but I'm glad I had this upbringing and I got to be, I got to see these different sides of religion, I think it's really cool for me, it made me a much more, I think, I don't know, more aware of spirituality, you know, and I know for a fact that when you passed away, I have no doubts about it that you, that the people that passed away are in contact with you after they die, you know, we had many things happening in our house through Dana, sometimes they lie, we just go on by itself, you know, we are stuff like that and I always thought the glory is like, that's Dana, he's doing that, you know, he's letting us, he's around, he's watching you, you know? So I think, and I really believe in the whole spiritual stuff and I think a lot of the soft life instrumental songs are very spiritual, they're created for that spiritual reason and I think it's cool to mix metal with spirituality, I think it's definitely a new way of doing metal. You know, for Americans in the kind of evangelical community, that Pentecostal tradition of speaking in tongues, that might be the closest thing to what you're talking about, like these rituals where people become possessed and, you know, are speaking in these strange ways and things like that, but it sounds also so much more layered and colorful with the Catholic iconography and the blend of all of that, do you know sort of where that tradition comes from? Is that a mix of, you mentioned Africa and is it sort of like indigenous people in Brazil mixing with, you know, Catholics coming from Europe and such? Yeah, it's all of that combined, you know, so there's the, the African side which was brought by the slaves and it's a lot of stuff from Nigeria and you ought to buy, you know, stuff like that, combined with the indigenous stuff, the tribal stuff. So you have stuff like all the tribes of Brazil, all the Indians, they're very spiritual people, the tribes are extremely spiritual, you know, when we visit the Chavantes, we got to, you know, see that in front of us 100% and there's no doubt there's total contact with nature and spirituality through the chants, the rituals that they do, and then of course the European also, influence. All that together, I think created Candombla and it's a fascinating word, I mean, you can actually Wikipedia later if you want and you know more about it, but it's like it has all the saints and they all have images, different images and one of the craziest ones is shoe, a shoe is kind of like, it's almost like evil a little bit, you know, it's like really kind of like, I guess in Indian, from India, you know, they have the, I forgot that I think it's a calli or one of those kind of like evil incarnations of spirits kind of thing. So it's all dressed in red and black and it has a big sword and Ashasi is kind of like the Saint Michael one, he's always like a hunter and he comes from the jungle, you know, so he's really, and that's the tribal side of it that comes out on the stuff. So I'm fascinated about, like I said, I love one day to really know more about it and the place to go is Bahia, that's the north and north of Brazil where the roots of video was filmed. That's where most of the condom blood, that's where condom blood was born and that's where you see a lot of the, you can go see gray rituals. We actually took Mike Patton to a ritual when, when Fadenomer came to Brazil, Mike was completely insane, he went crazy with the stuff, you know, he's like, you know, knowing Mike knew he would and he saw the whole thing and he was like, he got bled by the priest and the whole percussion thing, he loved them and you know, I think it was so cool. In fact, they had four shows booked in Brazil and the first night we took him to the condom blood sessions, he went out and bought a whole white suit which belongs to one of the entities. Forgot the name of it, but it's like all white suits, like Papa Naboo from Haiti, you know, with the hat and the cane and he came out like that on the show and that was amazing. I was like, I had goosebumps, man, Mike came on all dressed in white suit with a top hat, with the cane, like an incarnation of one of the condom blood figures. I never forget, that was one of the coolest things I ever seen anybody do. music and it was amazing and it was all from that experience, you know. So it's cool like one day I like to do a lot more. I think you learn more about it and I really need to talk to my mother more about it and find out more details but I just think you'll be such a cool thing to do a record involved in all these especially for people in Europe and America that don't know what that is. Yeah I think they'll really it's a bit more wild than roots like roots was going into the tribe and it was elemental Brazil. This is going into the spiritual world so it's like a whole different nother level of different stuff to show to people but I think done with a lot of respect and the right way with the percussion I think I believe it can be done I think it can be very powerful. And I think it's interesting too when we were talking about the origins of that tradition and how it's a blend of you know this amalgam of different cultures and things intermingling with one another in terms of myths and rituals and beliefs. I think in a lot of ways you can describe that as as what Sepertura was. [Music] [Music] But yeah that mix of everything intermingling together and creating something new and magical I think that could describe you and your brother and your your journey and music because I think kind of a big part of what Sepertura and and everything you've done since added to the metal community was you know their pieces of European metal like you mentioned and American metal and things with them through this very specific prism of not only Brazil but you know the life that you guys had lived as children and the and the different beliefs and things that inform that perspective. Yeah and I've always been really fascinated by you know and I think that's all connects to spirituality a lot of the tribals of around the world you know you know we we visit some when we were on a soft light tour in Siberia we were in we saw a lot of kind of like the was near Mongolia I was like saw a lot of the Eskimo tribes and I was always fascinated by the and you have here in America to the Navajos we do a lot of stuff with the Navajos which is I just did like a month ago show they did an anti-bullying prevent suicide event and the vice president of the Navajo Nation is a metal fan he was a Sepertura fan and growing up grew up grew up with my music and I was so good to meet him and you know like he was he was a full on fan and knew everything and I end up doing a jamming with a with a Navajo metal band we played two soft light songs two Sepertura songs and and right before this jam there was a whole Navajo dance and they bless my family they bless my whole family because I had was me my wife my son Igor and my grandkids or with us so they did a whole ceremonial ritual blessing dance for us and that was amazing you know so I love all that man I think that all it's really spiritual really powerful stuff and I think it's cool and I think we need more of that in metal and I'm you know I'm like I'm the guide to do that I'm very into doing a lot of that stuff for the future including a lot more of that into my stuff in the future I think you'll be really cool I think it's it's I guess you can say kind of start with roots but it never stopped it you know and pieces by pieces so if I want had a lot of it prophecy was really cool with traveling to Serbia dark ages we went to Egypt Turkey it's cool man I think it's all part of it and it makes metal different and more exciting and also spiritual you know which I think is it's really good that's one of the one of the reasons I like stuff like gojira I think like they think about nature and stuff like that you know like like like oceans and saving the whales and shit like that you know it's like it's really cool nobody really kind of like does that man you know and or you have like stuff like mellicash from the Middle East talking about all their things from Babylonian times and and warriors and things like that I think it's really cool I think more people should do that you kind of alluded to this earlier and I agree with the sentiment that even some of the the more extreme black metal bands oftentimes unknowingly or something like integrity you know I talked about this a lot with the wood and exploring the occult or kind of this reactionary aggression against the more repressive forms of organized religion there's a spirituality to that as well you know it's like a lot of the guys who make that music would probably hate to hear that but you know for me as somebody who's a believer I can still be inspired even from some of the darkest of of nihilistic kind of because I think it you know goes back to as funny as this is a person to quote bono from you too I saw this interview with him once where he said that all of the best music and art is either running away from the light or running toward it and what it all has in common is that it recognizes that God is kind of a pivotal point you know so it's like the best art is like trying to embrace God and love and positivity and all of that or trying to reject it and run from it but both sides acknowledging it yeah yeah I believe that and I think I'll go even as far as saying somehow not really taking credit but I think I think what roots did in a way was showing like like people from different parts of the world that they can embrace their own culture and I think a lot of the black metal bands like enslaved and immortal starting embracing their Viking you know origins and has musically has nothing to do with roots you know like it's totally different it's pure black metal but I really think it's good to embrace their Viking heritage and in a way that was really similar to I think what roots did and I really dig that you know and I think you know somehow I think it's connected you know I think at some point one of those guys must have seen roots and probably had that deal like we should do something similar you know with with our own culture with our own heritage the same goes out to stuff like metal cash like all the same which I think is a fantastic band and there's a lot more others you know around the world that probably doing the same thing embracing their heritage but I think it's really cool and and I'm totally totally agree with you sometimes I think those guys don't even know but what the stuff they're doing is very spiritual and they'd not even aware of it which I think is even cooler you know yeah I mean in a weird way you could even say something like baby metal with its mixture of of religious deities and and pop culture and silliness and you know that it's embrace it's very it's a very Japanese take on metal you know think always how is connected somehow but I really like kind of like the a lot of it the visuals of the a lot of these bands here's I think it's really cool I was watching this the rear of this director that we want to try to work it's called jump Simnovis and he did the Nile he did one of the Nile videos and a couple septic flash videos and a rotting christ video and it was really It was all this weekend stuff, you know, but. really kind of spiritual but all this with really pagan look to it but really powerful stuff man really cool visuals you know mix with the music mix with with kind of black metal becomes something really really cool I think was really I really enjoy watching it I thought it was really cool you know so I think even some of the some of the behemoth videos I thought was really cool for for their last record some of the visuals were amazing like the blow your trumpet Gabriel I thought that was a great song you know and and it was really it's really biblical you know like like say either going towards the light or running away from the light you know and but I I think I think the Satanist album was really really biblical and really inspiring in many ways and a lot of the visuals they use for their record I thought was really cool like really cool stuff it wasn't like the generic satanic stuff that that you you normally see that was like more like a pagan feeling to it that was really kind of cool yeah and their goals definitely somebody that I want to have on as well to talk about all this stuff he seems very fascinating and yeah I mean some of the some of the satanic stuff in metal I mean you know I mean obviously we both love venom but with venom as an example it was very theatrical it was almost like kind of like Halloween costume shop you know whereas some of these some of these other bands that we're talking about are delving into things that I think are much more nuanced and complicated and and kind of more straightforward and serious you know which makes it interesting I love that you're so open-minded about all of these things and I think that that's something else that you could rightfully be credited with and introducing it into metal not only in terms of the experimentation and the you know the tribal stuff and the percussion and all the different things that you guys introduced in the mid-90s but I think even continuing forward you know all the collaborators and guests that you've had throughout its whole flies career the sort of pure almost punk rock things that you've done with cavalier conspiracy at different points I think that you know that same kind of open-mindedness really seems to be a reflection of your worldview in terms of spirituality you know because you have that also that same idea like you're not you're not dismissing any of these traditions and you're also not holding one above another but you seem to be embracing and exploring all of them yeah like I believe in God but that doesn't stop me from listening to to black metal music for example you know I think I think when you cross the line and you become extreme person that you don't accept anything else that's when it becomes a problem you know when you are just totally when you when you are very prejudicial against other people and you only accept your way look the world is not just one way or it's many ways and people have different tastes and different feelings you know and I think in my own my own thinking why should I stop listening to metal because I believe in God so I just not listen to metal at all just because I believe in God to me that doesn't make sense you know like metal is the music that actually metal is the music that limits your God you know I'm saying it's which is which is a really crazy but in a crazy way is what happened you know tours tours the end of stuff like the beginning of chaos a D and roots where I become more aware of real of spirituality and God in my life and I got a more start dedicated and all the soul fly records to God which I thought was kind of a punk thing to do in a anti-god absolutely I thought the same thing when I have records to God it's a punk rock thing to do like nobody else is doing that you know yeah but don't stop me from liking some of the the black matter stuff that I always like you know that matter for that reason you know like I love death metal I love suffocation and emulation and incantation all the Asians of the world you know yeah so I don't divide things man it's all part of it and I'm sure I'm sure God understands that you know I mean that I believe my God is more open-minded than that you know I think and I kind of like your things that God was it's kind of like how a little bit what we we see in the way in the in the we read a bit in the Bible and we see a little bit in movies like hanging out more with prostitutes and low lives than hanging out with rich people I think he was more that kind of I think Jesus was more that kind of person and he's the son of God you know so I like to think that my God is more open-minded and it allows me to do that so okay that I like that stuff and I will not stop being a metalhead because of that but I embrace it you know I embrace my spirituality and I'm totally I'm totally comfortable telling people that that I believe in God I don't have a problem with that you know I would think that you know you mentioned sort of that time in your life where you started to embrace this a little bit more in that that KSAD and that roots era and obviously with Dana passing away so close to that time period and and the split with the old band and everything you know one could argue that whole idea of things happening for a reason that you know God becoming a bigger part of your life just before you endured these you know this huge tragedy and this huge change in your life and identity you know that that was important because like you know imagine if that if that transformation so to speak hadn't come to you just a few years before you went through all that you know it could have been a much as hard as it was it could have been even harder in a different way I would imagine yeah I believe I think those some some of the stuff are like tests in your life they have to pass through them you know and I think dealing with the death of Dana dealing with the split of Seputra the all tests I believe from God you know to see if we can if I was able to pass them you know to survive them you know and I think that's sometimes that's what makes me most proud of it is that I actually survive all that that's that's some some rough stuff a lot of people I don't think people realize sometimes how difficult that is to make that transition from a big successful band to create something new without knowing if that's going to work or not that unknown is really scary you know so where I found myself in 1997 creating soft lie soft lie one was probably the most difficult record I ever made in my life because of such uncertainty and and so so much uh unknown you know I'm surrounded by unknown I don't know nothing I don't know if this thing is going to happen uh in my head I'm thinking in in a era it can be all this is going to be all gone nobody except my new band I'm done I'm done I'm finished you know um so all this flowing through my head at the same time my the other side of my brain is just telling me you got to keep going that's all all you have all you always have in your music in your life was music so Sepapura was like my weapon and I was I don't have that anymore so I have to make a new weapon and that's soft lie you know so I create a soft lie as a new weapon but I kind of like view the weapon a little bit different so I think soft lie came with more spirituality which I think is definitely I think it's like there's a growth I think there's you can sense a kind of a growth on a person and and I embrace in that spirituality also I think was really cool so even in the stuff like the soft lying instrumentals um so but but I think that the best to me out of all that is the actually just the fact that I managed to survive that and and made it true and I got to share my journey with all my heroes like to me recording when we're doing these sessions with other people everybody that you know the killer be kill record was one of my favorite things I ever done all the collaborations um you know which are hundreds of them and those are all stuff that I really treasure and I really they're really cool really important my life and I'm some just real blast that I had the chance to work with a lot of my idols and a lot of my heroes you know and I think that's um yeah it's a it's a great feeling a great feeling when when you're able to do that and and I like to to see the future with more of that you know yeah and I think that's also you know something that you can be credited with really helping to expand and inspire in the heavy music community is that uh attitude almost like you know I remember at the first time I ever interviewed you I was when I still lived in Indiana it was a phone interview uh But it was, it was right when the first Soulfly record was coming out, and two things that stick out to me that I've seen you maintain since then, as we talked about the name Soulfly and how, you know, Sepultura grave, you know, was this dark name and obviously it has a lot of power and it still holds power. But Soulfly, the idea that, you know, you have this opportunity to start over and that you very purposefully chose a name that was spiritual and also positive and uplifting, you know, that gives you an attitude of something different. And also I remember talking about, you know, around the time, I mean, that was when Wu Tang was like in their prime and I remember talking about with you about hip hop records and how accepted it was in hip hop to work with different producers on different tracks and have different guests and, you know, collaborators and stuff and how you wanted to really expand that deeper into metal. And I think, you know, in the several years since that first Soulfly album, I think I think you've done that. I think it's, it's awesome. Yeah, I think Primitive was actually like, it was so full of people. Some people were actually kind of mad about it. And I read, I read some of the, some of the reaction being positive and some of being negative. And the other day, I think was the right cool record to do. I work with a lot of great people that I really love like Tom Mariah and Cory and Chino. Sean Lennon, you know, like itself, just, just doing us only Sean Hennon to me was just a kick ass thing. It's like, it's nobody can ever imagine that to happen. You know, so I think that's totally crazy. In saying kind of cool idea, mixing beetles and then metal together, you know, beetles, depotora thing together was, to me, was so cool. But yeah, you know, so I always love the idea of guests. I think, I think metal needs more of that. I think it's more, I don't like, I don't like to see metal as as competition, more of a, we're all on this together and we all get to the top together faster if we all embrace each other and go on, on, on without really. You can have a spirit of kind of like, I guess, combat or trying to outperform another artist on tour. You know, you always hear that, you know, you always try to play better than the other band. But it's in a friendly, cool way, never done in a malicious way, you know what I'm saying. But I always love the guest idea. And I think I see all the more bands doing that today. And I think it's really cool, you know, a good hero. I don't know, stuff with, with Lamb of God. And then so many others, man, so many others, like there's been a lot of, you know, the fire burn, the thought project, that sounds like bad brain. I thought that thing was awesome. Yeah, yeah, with the, that's what that said, the band with Israel, who was in the singer for bad brains on that one record. Yeah, yeah, that was great. That thing was great. Yeah. That was one of my favorite things I heard this year. That was really cool. And I'm so surprised that it's hard. It doesn't sound laughing like nails. Sounds like old bad brains, you know. Yeah. But at the same time, it doesn't totally surprise because I know that knowing Todd's background comes from the hardcore world. He's really knowledgeable of all that. So it's, yeah, but it was just so nicely done. It was so well done. Even the ragged song was like, what, yeah, man, this is great. Yeah, and it's funny because it is real. And Israel sounds more like HR on that record than he did on the bad brains record his own. Oh, he does. Yeah, some more HR than HR himself. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, perfect. That's the perfect place to wrap up because, you know, what's more spiritual and heavy than the bad brains. Right on, man. Well, it was real nice talking to you, man. There's a brand new Cavalera Conspiracy album, Psychosis, which is dropping in October. Max is constantly on tour with one of his bands. It's be sure to check in with Max Cavalera Cavalera Conspiracy Soulfly online on social media to keep up with what they're doing and when and where he will be. Any Max Cavalera performance is always a celebration of heavy music, of his faith, of the joy that he gets and playing the most brutal riffs anyone's ever heard. If you like this conversation, if you're enjoying this podcast, please, the best way you can help us at the moment is to go into the iTunes store. Give us a five star rating and leave a nice little review because the more of those we have, the higher the visibility of the podcast, which means more people will discover it and get to hear and share in these great conversations. You can find me at Ryan Downey on Twitter, @superheroHQ on Instagram. You can also find no prize from God on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter as well. No prize from God is part of the PopCurs podcast network. As always, you guys have been great, and I've been Ryan Downey.