Maureen Paley

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With this guest in the early 2000s, my boyfriend, Dan Theo at the time, his best friend, Max Moogler, worked in a gallery in East London, very close to Bethnal Green. And I remember vividly getting on the tube from North West London, going all the way down to Bethnal Green and making the pilgrimage to this gallery. And it literally changed my life. The first time I walked through the doors, you had to ring a buzzer. And it wouldn't-- you couldn't just walk in. You had to ring a buzzer and wait for someone to welcome you. And then they'd come and open the door for you. And then you'd go inside and it was like a beautiful space. And I think it was just before it changed name to our guest's actual name. Back then, it was called Interim Art. And I saw some incredible, incredible shows. And it literally just changed my life to the point where I wanted to become a gallerist, you know, after many, many years of visiting. I always used to feel incredibly magical, incredibly sort of inspired. And it was a place to learn and a place for community. Because at the openings, there used to be this kind of outdoor space. And everyone would have beers and like hang out. And I got to make loads of friends like Sarah Jones, the artist and Rebecca Warren and Wolfgang Tillman's. And just loads of amazing artists would gather. And it was the first place I began to realize that you really could go to an opening. And you could just be yourself and people would welcome you. There was no kind of hierarchy or bullshit or like any kind of, like, meanness. It was just a very open sort of friendly space. And yeah, it sort of changed my life. And I can't believe we're going to interview her. Because I love her so much. So we would like to welcome to talk art more. Marie. Hi, Marie. Hi, Marie. Uh-oh. Hello. Hello. Hi, Russell. Hi, Robert. Hello. Wonderful to be here, finally, and to speak with you both. Where are you today? I'm in Hove. And I'm in that location for the summer. But I'm always very, very close to East London in my heart. But yes, I'm by the seaside. Robert's just talking about, you know, going to the gallery and buzzing the bill. And I had the same experience when discovering your space. And I would say it is quite intimidating. That does add to the getting over the threshold of entering a gallery. But once you are opened at the door, is when I first met Oliver. Oliver Evans is one of the directors now with you, who's incredible, when he would sort of welcome you in and then give you a tour. And it becomes very bespoke, like a bespoke experience. It's like it's tailored to you as you enter the door. And that original space on Herald Street, this is in East London, it was a magical space. And the exhibitions that I, it's Robert saying that I've seen there, well, have been, you know, defining for my taste or my experience of what are, is what London art can be, international art. There's a very queer aesthetic I always found that I was really leaning into. And the space, I mean, how did you know, or what did you know that you wanted to achieve when you opened that space? And what was this bell thing? Why didn't you have a system where people were just walking? Well, I think that actually came as a little bit of a hangover from my original space, because when I first opened, which was in 1984, I was a project space and I was actually running out of a tourist, a Victorian tourist house in sort of near to London fields. And for sort of just kind of in a community way and kind of in a welcoming way, we began there and we would always answer the door. And somehow felt that people rang a bell to kind of gain entry. It was a, it was a bit of a private thing. But at the same time, it was open to the public and it had, it had public days. And I guess that worked and we just never questioned it. So we continued doing it as a kind of East End procedure. And that just kind of was how, how, how it happened. And I don't think we even tell I'm hearing you speaking about it. I don't think we even questioned it. It was just the way we did it. I think, I think I always used to find it really exciting, because you'd have that weight outside. And then once you get let in, it sort of defined that this space was different. And I think that's what art can be. It can be a place of transformation of like, you know, taking your mind and your soul somewhere else. And it was specifically your gallery that made me feel that. Like a lot of the West End galleries, it was super commercial. And often they'd be quite unfriendly as well. But your space was always like, everyone was so polite and so lovely. And like, yeah, even your office with the glass door. And I always remember you sitting in there. It was, you could always knock on that door and say hi to you. And you would like, open up your bookcases and give books away. And like, you know, you were really keen on encouraging people to be inspired by new art. Well, I think that we often talked about how it was somewhat of a tardis, you know, to behind the door when one entered the original space. But then it was interesting that in Herald Street too, we always talked about it being both the space, which was, you know, a gallery. But I was always very interested in the idea of a reading room and a lab. So we had this idea that a lot of experimentation was going on amongst the artists. And we were welcoming a public that might not be fully aware of their work. So we had kind of sense or I had a sense that I imparted to my, the people working with me and to the artists themselves that we would be like a point for information to be kind of gained. And I think that that was something very special, very important to me. And I was thinking about this because knowing I was going to be speaking to you both was kind of looking back over all the years I've known some of the artists that are most associated with the space and realizing that, you know, I met Wolfgang Tillman's when he was, you know, so young. And I met him around 1988-89. I didn't give him his first solo show till 1993. But I had met him in Hamburg first. And then he had come to study at Bournemouth College. We kept contact all the way through. And I showed him in the unfair and colourful in 1992. And I showed Lutz and Alex sitting in the trees, which is now very iconic work. So I was the first to show that as an inkjet in that fair, which was the unfair, so not quite a fair. And then we did a solo show in 1993 as did Daniel Buchhol just before me. And I found it really interesting to look back, thinking that I was going to speak to you both. Because that was such an important moment for me. And the gallery was evolving in a project space way just before that. So from '84 till the point where I was showing him or showing Gillian Wearing, who I also met in 1993 and showed in '94 in that first space. What does that use? So you considered it a temporary space, right? So you had your space in your house for like one or two years you were planning and then you had the intranart and you thought that would be for two years? Well, a couple of years, yes. I think that was the kind of the belief. And then it grew. And somehow I was able to show a lot of work that was international very, very early on. And the inspiration for that space came from a visit I made. Because I used to go back and forth, I came originally from New York, as you know. And I used to visit New York. And I was very inspired myself by galleries in the Lower East Side of New York that had been set up by people who were similar in age to me. And they were doing fantastic shows. And I wanted to bring some of that energy back to the east end of London. And I think the approach, which again, you know, you're talking about Rob and Russell coming into the gallery and feeling welcome. When I went into those spaces, I really got that feeling. And often somebody did greet you at the door. And they were a shopfronts and also not huge a lot of the spaces. They were just very, very edgy. And that gave me a lot of courage to open. What was it about London? So being from New York and you're inspired by the Lower East Side galleries. But you suddenly go, well, I want to bring all this and take it to the east end of London. What was the aesthetic of the UK that it was giving you? Well, you know, I stayed in the UK after graduating from the Royal College of Art. And I-- I think that I was drawn to the whole scene that was sort of surrounding me at the time. So I really found that the music situation in London and a lot of the punk music, a lot of the people who were recording, I was very intrigued by people like John Peel who were giving opportunities to musicians where they were playing songs on the radio and then those songs were somehow syndicated worldwide like very quickly because of, you know, his efforts and his kind of instinct and vision. And I think because I was being kind of taken up and running around at clubs and going out in London, London was my home and I really felt that if I could bring some of this art activity into the situation, it would kind of, in a way, complete something and maybe continue something that I had begun in terms of living in a place that appealed to me so much. I mean, I love London. I love New York but I love London. Was you a punk? Well, I wouldn't go so far but I was certainly like I'm going out to all the gigs. I was very drawn to the scene. So I was going out everywhere and meeting everyone. And I was actually thinking about this the other day because people who are associated much more heavily with being punks are people who are friends of mine to this day. So they know I was there. So cool. With the punk music, was there an art aesthetic at the same time? I'm picturing things like Sid Vicious and the posters you sort of saw for that time? Was there a movement that you could feel at that time alongside? Well, I think what it was was that I was at the Royal College of Art and I was there from '78 to '80, which brought me very close to King's Road. So I could kind of wander down there and go to boy and go to Vivian Westwoods and Malcolm the Clarence shop, which kept changing names and went from kind of into various transitions. And I think that it wasn't so much like I was trying to, in a way, introduce that aesthetic. It was more that I was really aware of the art from New York from the '70s and also looking at art that was emerging in the '80s. And I felt that I could provide a role in translating some of that into a kind of a London situation. And I think that's an important thing in a way for me because I wasn't looking at it only that I would at that time, and it's changed now, but I wasn't only looking at it that I would only represent and present work from the UK. I was always looking at art that was being created everywhere, was looking quite a lot in the States. I was looking in Germany and there was a sort of sense when I got started that I wanted to have, if one could use this word, like, an international presence. So my viewpoint was international. It was like, think local and act global. Think local act global. I love that. That's a mantra. That's amazing. When you were 10, I've read that you were asked by your art teacher in your art class to critique everyone else's work. And you look back on that moment as being something that you realised that they saw something in you, which you hadn't realised about yourself yet, but you know that that was there from the start. But then when you went to do the Royal College of Art, you went there yourself to train as a photographer, is that right? Well, the thing that was very interesting is that the art that I was most drawn to and even to this day was conceptual work. And a lot of the conceptual work that I was interested in used the camera. So the camera was part of their way of documenting and locating the art that they were engaged in. So a lot of the artists that I had looked at through that period were sometimes lens-based though very much guided by concept. So when I went to the Royal College and I was applying to go there, I think they felt that I'd be best in the photography department. And though my interest was much, much broader. So yes, I went to the photography department at the Royal College of Art and then proceeded to look at all sorts of things. And what brought me to the East End was reading actually in a stamp on the work of Gilbert and George that they lived in Fornier Street. And I decided I needed as a young art student to make a pilgrimage to their house. So I went and you can imagine, I think Rob, you really would get this. I mean, Fornier Street was considered so far away. So when both of you were making pilgrimages to my gallery, I was going to this dusty street in Spiddlefields to look at this house. And it was somehow then that I fell in love with the East End and thought maybe I can look around and find some property nearby. And the property I found actually, I was led to through going to Covent Garden, again, these are all these kind of student forays, to find a place where I could have both studio and home. And I went to what was then the Acme Gallery. And the Acme Gallery was in Shelton Street. And they were very progressive and they were doing a lot of experimental work. And I was very drawn to what they were doing. And someone told me, if you go upstairs, you can tell them you're looking for a property, they might find you one. And then luckily, they did. And that was where the gallery then got located. So all of this is part of like a kind of London, sojourn and a London kind of, yeah, like London unfolding in a very particular way. It feels like a more romantic time because you mentioned Gilbert and George. That used to write their address on their artworks. So anyone who saw their artwork, like you said, you were able to make a pilgrimage outside their house, knock on their door. You opened your house to the public. You allowed people into your live-work environment and to experience art. But then your bedroom is upstairs, I'm sure, and your belongings, it feels like that was a time which doesn't exist now. Did it feel more kind of? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to sound so nostalgic for it or about it, because in actual fact, I think people now still create project spaces, and there are younger artists who are doing things in their front room and creating things in studios where they have open studios. I think that the experimental end of art and the way that art evolves often is allowing that DIY element to still be alive. And I know what you're saying. I think things have gone into another realm. It can appear far more corporate now. It can appear that a lot of this has been forgotten. But I do see it that there are people who are still setting up and doing things in Marguer doing things in New York on the lower east side, doing things in London and South London, where they are actually being vulnerable. Yeah, totally. And I actually think it's interesting. I always remember talking to Margo Heller about you who is the head of the South London gallery and has been for a long time now. And she used to make it pilgrimage to your space just like I did. And we actually became friends bonding over the idea that we both loved Maureen Paley. And then collectors like Helen Rander, Helen Thorpe, like she would also make the pilgrimage to you. And it sort of became this thing like this idea of the journey. And I think when Carl Friedman first said to me about moving to Marguer, I was like, "Well, actually, it could be possible because there is something magic, isn't there about about people having to make that kind of journey?" I think there's a commitment involved. It's a destination. And a passion involved that when they arrive, it's a kind of magical thing. Well, I think that energy and then also you communicating that to others means that if you create a destination, people find their way to that destination. That's also happened like creating Marena Deluna down in Hove. I had vowed that I'd never open, you know, something outside of London that wasn't necessary for me to do. So actually, I think inspired by Marguer, but understanding that I had a locational connection to Hove, I opened. And it's kind of been very interesting. I mean, the shows that we've done here have been very well-tended. It's kind of, it's run in a quite idiosyncratic way, but I actually quite like that. I looked at galleries in the Hamptons outside of New York and sort of felt that one could, you know, attempt to do something. And I think that sense that you can make things possible. And it's for love of the art, but also it's for like a kind of immediacy, like a belief in what could be possible. I also feel like really strongly that if you think about your space in Hove, which is obviously right next to Brighton, it's quite easy to get to from London, but also it provides such a different experience for the art themselves. And Russell and I, I remember we flew back from New York. I think it was before the pandemic when Rebecca Warren had a solo show with you there in Brighton. And I remember being a bit confused when we turned up because I was like, it's going to be a really small space for Rebecca. Like, you know, she makes these monumental giant sculptures. And then when we arrived there, it kind of all clicked because I was like, oh, I see, like, you know, you're giving the artist an opportunity to be an artist, you know, and explore a different space. Yes. And her show soul was one of our, you know, a special we loved having that there. I mean, as you know, you know, we gave Rebecca, well, her first show with the gallery was in 2000, which was the agony in the ecstasy. And that was when she first introduced like her works in clay in the gallery space. She went on to do like in 2003, she went on to do she. She's done very, very iconic work for the gallery and with the gallery. And I was thinking about this a lot because I was in Vienna and very, very excited this July to see that she has just opened a show at the Belvedere 21, which is called the Now Voyager. And looking at those bronzes, which were just so accomplished, so special, it felt very important that we also had done something at Marina Deluna that she felt had in some way inspired the next step that she has taken now in Vienna. So I think that that show and the people who came to to be at the opening, so you both being there and so many of the people that she was so close to actually enjoying their time in Brighton for her and being with her inhove, we didn't feel that it was any less attended. And we also have felt that it was very appreciated once people arrived. And again, had that tardis experience of not knowing what to expect. And then coming through the door and realizing that something had occurred, something like very significant had been made. Is there a bell welcoming there as well? Have you carried that through? We will. We do. We do. I guess it just must be something that we do. It's your trademark. Absolutely. Yeah, so you met Rebecca Warren who me and Robert dear friends with him is again one of our absolute art heroes. You met her after you did a talk at her art school, right? Yes, well, you know, I was also looking back and just trying to piece together like where I had, you know, come across her first and, you know, what I was thinking about. In 1997, I had seen a show at the Hayward, right, which was called a material culture. And it was sculpture from the 1980s and 90s. And she had a dream piece that was in that show, which was called every aspect of bitch magic. Yes. And I love this piece. So I wrote her name down. You didn't have iPhones in those days. I couldn't take a picture and I couldn't photograph the caption. But I thought she seemed very interesting. So then, yes, I did sort of meet her at her art college. But I did also see something that she had done in 1999 in a show that Glenn Brown had curated at the approach gallery. And it was called the show, it was a group show and it was called It's a Curse, It's a Bird. And in that show, again, a very iconic work was presented, which was her helmet crumb work. And I remember looking at this clay work and thinking, oh my God, I love this work so much. This is just genius. I have to show this person. So we met. And at the time, I remember her saying to me, almost shyly and bit concerned that I might find it awkward, but I didn't at all, given my origins, I have to say, I'm very open to all sorts of possibilities in terms of what artists can do and not do. So she said, I don't have a studio, but she met me at St. John restaurant in the bar and showed me some polaroids of some clay work that she was making and might like to show. And that was it. So we did our show, which was the agony and the ecstasy in 2000. And I presented many of those works. And she just went away and continued to work on them. They were very important, very, very significant work. And again, she surprised a lot of people who knew her conceptual earlier works and were interested in her as, you know, an artist that was extremely broad in her background. But that too interested me because my background was conceptual work and looking at a range of work. Because when I was a student at Sarah Lawrence and then later on at Brown University, we were, you know, going into New York quite a bit to look at the art that was being shown at the time. So we were looking at Donald Judd, we were looking at Salawit. I was looking at, you know, variety of things. There was a lot of work that really Ava Hess was very influential for me. There were things that were quite moving to see in both galleries and in museums. And I was thinking about it now because, you know, when you were talking about the queers that I grew up and like things that I might not have seen at the time, I'm interested that I'm now going back into that period and revisiting things. So I didn't see Paul Tech then, but thinking about him now. And I didn't see Peter Who's are then, but thinking about him now. So people that were overlooked in that time are people that I'm being able to resurface in this time. But I think that my whole orientation really helped me to understand Rebecca's conceptual thinking, which is very important to me. It feels like, so this was in 2000 that you had the agony ecstasy. And we were talking about Wolfgang Tillman's middle of that trillion wearing. And these are artists that you have connected with at the very genesis beginning of their careers really. And you have nurtured and worked alongside them and supported and encouraged. And it feels like that is a real unique asset that you have this loyalty that these artists have had to you and that you've had to them. And what would you put that down to for yourself that these relationships, these marriages, I guess, you've had with these artists throughout their whole career? What is the fundamentals of that for you? Well, I've been thinking a lot about that because I thought you might mention it. And I was thinking about how things evolve. I suppose that there's certain, well, there's my love of art. So I think that's the first. And then the second is that when I have picked people to work with, not all relationships last as long as these have. But I do feel that I picked these people on the basis that they spoke to something very deep inside of me and that I really felt a very intense connection to. One of the other things is that we are all continuously evolving as you know. And you know, you as people who are looking at art, collecting art, thinking about art, showing art, all of those things curating, all the things you do. These are all things I love too. So in a way, it's not just that you decide you want to show something simply to show it. It's also being immersed in the whole practice. Really thinking about what it is that these artists are engaged in. And I think it was like beginning a dialogue. And it was actually in some ways like a true marriage of spirits. So there's a kind of sense of like belief in what this person was bringing to the world. And that thing that they were bringing to the world was something that was aligned with my thinking. And I was thinking about this being of quite a benchmark year because Gillian wearing just had a solar show, you know, that was Gillian wearing wearing masks at the Guggenheim. Wolfgang is about to open a solar show this September coming at the Museum of Modern Art and we're extremely excited about that to look without fear. And then Rebecca, as we mentioned, you know, is at the Belvedere 21. And there it goes on, you know. I was actually thinking about someone like Hannah Starkey, who I met in 1997, who graduated from the Royal College of Art, who I still work with. And she was just given a freelance award from the freelance foundation and is going to open this September of huge solar show at the Hepworth Wakefield. So there's a lot of activity, you know, and I was thinking too because of Rob and Hardy. And thinking how she's been given a Chinati residency that's going to come up this autumn and she's going to go there, but she's also been nominated for the Mario Marz Award in Torino. So when you think of picking people, and I've had so many artists that are wonderful in the gallery that I am not mentioning, who've been honored, Lawrence Abouhamden being one of them, who also has been in the Toronto Biennale, isn't currently in the Berlin Biennale. All these things are part of evolution, revolution, and thinking behind the ethos of the gallery. So it's not just about selling the work, which of course, you know, we are delighted to place with great collectors and with museums. But it's also about being very close to the making of the work. And maybe because I actually was trained, not only in art history, but in art practice, I actually feel very close to the installation and making side of things. I really love the installation phase. Even at fairs, I am present doing that because it means something to me. It's not just something that, you know, and I love doing it with Oliver Evans, my director who you mentioned, who is quite wonderful. So the curatorial side is incredibly important, like prior to the gallery and during the starting of your own space, you were doing outside curation. You did a lot of shows. You've done shows at Camden Art Centre, done leads art gallery, the Henry Moore sculpture park where you put like YBA young British artists into that exhibition. So when it comes to your own space, do you see that as an ongoing curatorial project and the installations? That's very important to you as well as the art you show. Very much so. And it's an honor to work with these artists, you know, to have nurtured them for so long and for them to believe in what we are doing together. And also to see it, that's a very exciting part of what we do. You know, we've also brought some new younger artists to the program recently, so we're very excited to be working with Felipe Bebeza, who's currently on in the Venice Biennale and was selected by Cecilia Alamane there. And he's in the milk of dreams. He graduated from Yale, a friend had told me I should do a studio visit with him in Yale, which we did virtually. And I have to say that that was very, very moving and important and we feel, again, you know, honored and delighted that we represent him. He's been a great addition to the gallery. And as well, we took on Chioma Ebonama, who's a Nigerian American artist who is living in Athens. But again, in curating the show with her, that was a real revelation in the space. The works were floating in the space and she and I were very much having a kind of synergistic relationship to how the show got installed. This queer aesthetic then, I want to go back to that, which has been really important to me, especially with Wolfgang Tillman's work and discovering that at a really informative time in my life. And of course, for Rob, it makes me think, and you're saying that you're filling in, well, I'm saying I'm filling in the gaps now for these historical artists that, you know, you experienced the time in New York that was post-Stone War pre-AIDS. And for the queer movement, for gay men, for gay people, that was an incredibly powerful, vivid, inspiring time. And then we lost so many to AIDS and that gave art history the ability to overlook that. And now, it feels like there's a reassessment of these artists that have been there, and me working in New York at the moment, it feels so like it happened yesterday. And these artists were lost yesterday. But this queer aesthetic that you've had, I mean, you created a show with Felix Gonzalez-Torris in '94, like two years before he died at Camden Arts Centre. How was that been important for you? And was that, you know, bringing the queer voice in, and the queer narrative into your program? Was that something that you brought from the New York scene and experiencing, you know, that lifestyle alongside yourself then? I think very much so. I think that I, along with hanging out in London during the, you know, when I was just graduating from college, I went to New York as well. But so many of my friends and so many people who've nurtured me and people who have mentored me and been very, very illuminating for me to have known and to know are people who are, in fact, gay or people that are queer and aware of their queer history. And I think that the sensibility is something that's just really true to me. It's not something I thought I should adopt. It's just something that is very much part of how I feel like the literature I've read, the things that I was actually moved by, all these things kind of fitted together. And it's interesting that when I look at the gallery, I mean, we do show and represent Peter Huzhara. We work with Paul P, we work with General I.D.N.A. Bronson. We work with Tom Burr, Felipe Biaza. There's a variety of people that we work with who are very specific in their work addressing LGBTQ issues and talking about them at length and writing about them. General idea are actually currently on in Ottawa at the National Gallery of Canada. And there's this huge catalog that A.A. Bronson has painstakingly put together that is really worth having. It's available through the gallery, but it's also available through them. I think that, you know, the Huzhara Show that was on at the Morgan Library was so significant. And that was an interesting thing because Vinseletti, who's a great friend who lives in New York and is a writer for the New Yorker and writes, you know, in general and has been a curator, he curated a male show or a version of his great male show for the gallery. And he's someone who also really was very instrumental in my getting a chance to work with the estate of Peter Huzhara. So we feel very grateful to Vince for doing that. And every time I go to New York, I make a point of seeing him. He has the most eccentric and special apartment in New York in the Lower East Side. It is absolutely filled with a treasure trove of catalogs and books. And his collection, which you should see Russell and you should see Robert, is absolutely remarkable. It's a very, very idiosyncratic, but very, very tender collection of works that he's, you know, put together over the years. And he's been a real champion to all of these things and a great inspiration to me. I really vividly remember the first Huzhara show I saw, which was actually at your space in Herald Street. And it was back in 2008. And I wasn't really familiar with the work. Was there a work in that group show as well, the hidden that you did that had those amazing like Graham Derwood paintings that I was really into? Yes, yes, I think that we had a self portrait in that show. Yeah, exactly. So that was probably the first time I saw his work. And then slowly over, you know, since 2008, like if you think how well known Huzhara has become. I literally saw it on the goals of your gallery first, like what, what, what, what does it feel like to sort of affect culture in that way? So I remember talking to you about the idea of culture and how sometimes it can feel quite difficult because there's other galleries or other institutions that have so much money to like, you know, spend on marketing and all these things. But I've always felt like you are always there first. And actually, you're always ahead of that curve, like, and you are affecting culture with the artist that you're showing. And, you know, give it a decade. We'll all be hearing about the people that you show. It just seems to be the case. You've been described as a true pioneer of the East End by Time Out magazine as well. So it's official. Well, you know, it's very interesting because I was thinking about different women who inspired me in the early days of, you know, growing up and growing up in America, no less. And so it was very interesting that people like George O'Keefe, who really did have a pioneering spirit and, you know, did kind of create a romance for me of like how one would kind of be quite singular in the world. Like, be able to emerge, have a vision, act on that and follow, follow your heart, follow your vision. She was, you know, for many, not just me, a great icon. And the other that I was thinking about that I came across when I was at college was free to color. And I think that again, you know, there was a great deal of tragedy and pain in her life. But extraordinary beauty, extraordinary vision, very, very, very stick to it of this pioneering and kind of, yeah, just a one off. And I think that finding people that you could look at who followed their vision, who followed their heart, who actually had the courage to stand on their own and to see something that maybe other people couldn't see. Or wouldn't yet see, but might see if they were able to lead the way was very, very inspiring for me. And I went with Oliver Evans to visit the Frida Kahlo Casa Azul, her Blue House and Museum in Mexico City. It was very, very important to see that and to see her studio with Diego Rivera. But to also see that every single thing she collected, the way that she like lived in her environment, all those things were very, very meaningful to me. Yeah, it was so precise. And actually that reminds me of your office, because I always remember your office having shelves and like almost like the trees that you could like on each shelf, you would have different objects or either crystals. Yeah, crystals. I said to Rob yesterday, I just bought some tangerine crystal now, I ordered it and that's arrived in because I was reading an interview. that you did and I was like I need tangerine crystal in my life right now. I also vividly vividly vividly remember it's such a weird anecdote but I remember going into the bathroom for the first time at Herald Street and washing my hands and getting the towel out of the towel dispenser and sort of pausing for a minute even though there was a huge queue and just looking at the actual like hardware like the actual like sink and the and the towel dispenser because it was so other and it was like this kind of fascinating way to create a different world and then I later found out all of that kind of bathroom hardware was from a prison or something or something. Well no no no indeed I'll tell you pictures and fittings are another obsession and another aspect of one's curation of spaces so there's a sense that I love that you know that is strong of that. Those things industrial design is something that you know I'm very very drawn to and very very interested in and then things that are almost functional kind of institutional kind of fixtures and fittings are things that I have always like researched for both like you know galleries and homes but there was a kind of desire to have these institutional kind of fittings and fixtures and I think that it was looking at spaces like the deer and also looking out the Museum of Modern Art in New York. I remember just thinking about certain spaces that were usually in Switzerland, Germany or the States that guided me towards the kinds of things that I was interested in ordering and we often couldn't order them in Britain so we would order them from abroad and then we were so excited when they would arrive because our notice board that we have in the gallery comes from Germany and when that arrived with the lettering that we put into it it was all just part and parcel of this other world that you know I had looked at and I wanted to bring something of that back to where I was in the east end of London. And I think as a collector it really gives you confidence in you like there's something so visionary about the attention to detail and I remember like every note you would write was so sort of thoughtfully you know when I bought work from you and you kindly used to let me pay an installments I've often quoted it because I couldn't really afford to buy you know everything that I wanted but you were always so encouraging to me and I don't know I just felt like that precise focus and attention to detail and level of care meant that you know I also invested my attention to detail and focus on everything you were showing it's really interesting. It's incredibly considered so it makes you feel safe or comfortable that you know at every point it's been thought about it is nothing's a fluke you know it's all there and it's all there to support the experience and it's a rich tapestry isn't it it's like a it's a kind of sensory experience it's really good. We'll go back to the comment about the 10 year old girl who was asked to you know comment on one's classmate's artworks. I think that you know when people talk about careerism or it being a career if it's your life's work and it's your like it's what you're meant to do then all these details and all these things are all filled with meaning so again I thank you both for noticing them because it's so important to me and the fact that they meant something to you and I was also guided by people like Iliana Sana Band and Leo Castelli because I remember reading that Leo Castelli allowed collectors to buy things by installment and that this was something that he would let people do and it was kind of like a practice that he engaged in and it seemed noble to me and very very thoughtful understanding because if you really wanted this particular work of art and that was the way you could achieve it then the gallery would understand that as the way to help to do that and I another thing that I think is also very close to you Russell and close to me too is that in progressing over these years and I realized that in 2024 the gallery will be 40 years old congratulations congratulations but you know it's 38 years old now and what I thought was that when I began the first two years thinking it was just a project space and for the first 10 years it really was just a project space and it was not representing artists and then even the next kind of 20 years was like learning on my feet because I really was more of an art historian artist as opposed to somebody who was thinking of it as a business so I think I was given the chance for it to evolve right over time so in each of these like 10 years segments different things have occurred and it was as late as 2004 that I actually called the gallery in my name so yes you said it began as as interim art then it went to more in daily interval that was the 20th anniversary right so that's 20 years ago okay it was it was and so one of the things I was thinking about though is that in all of that it's something where it it is like your life's work it is not actually just something that you're doing you know and it would be described as your career yeah yeah yeah totally and interestingly parallel to that you were the person that taught me about guardianship and I remember when I first came to your gallery I was buying prints and I was buying the odd thing and I think I felt like you know when you bought something it was yours and it was my conversations with you very early on that made me realize that actually you know we're not going to be here forever and things we buy aren't really hours you know on a really all we are as collectors is guardians and when I heard a while ago that Anne Hardy was being considered to have work bought for the Tate I remember thinking like now's the right time to give the work that I'd bought from you to the Tate as well as a gift because you'd got it in my head really early on this idea of like everything I was collecting is more about protecting it for the future generations and hopefully that you know when I die the collection can go to you know to local museums or across the country through contemporary art society or to the Tate so when I heard that Anne was having that work you know acquired anyway I was like oh this is a perfect time and I think you you were the one that instilled that in me and I think that's really extraordinary for a a galorist you know who's on the commercial side to sort of care that much being kind of aware of works eventual home and where they they kind of go to and really being concerned that you know a wide variety of people will get to experience them and sort of value them and see them but again I now realize what I was I was getting at too about along with doing well and having success for the gallery artists and success for the gallery was putting back in so this idea of giving back is very I think very important a very topical right now and one of the things I know that Russell you've been engaged with and I have two is the magic breakfast yeah also you know thought a lot about the Felix project so the gallery being located in the east end of London there's a lot that is needed in the area there's a lot of need and poverty and and issues and I think that we were aware of that and so from very very early on we you know really are I have really made a point to contribute to things that benefit people in our immediate location. I also remember seeing your name really early on places like Chisenhael and like even like bigger institutions like you know ICA or all the different ones but I always remember thinking you were one of the only galleries back then like you seem to have been supporting other artists. Yeah you've been a patron and support all the early school east yeah studio Voltaire obviously we've met multiple times white columns in the states Camden Arts Centre the Chisenhael ICA self London gallery takes and other things like white university for other art spaces and for new ideas is just extraordinary. Well thank you I think it's it's it's very important we just or I just decided as part of a legacy of things to kind of contribute to that I'd give a bit more to the Tate in terms of the conservation department because they are doing wonderful work to help artists and when and Hardy's gift was made to the Tate recently she was so impressed by that department and how they handled every little detail of her work and I think that this is something where you know her liquid landscape which is currently now on actually in the British art show in Manchester was handled so beautifully by them that it made me think perhaps this would be something to kind of do some additional funding for so I think all these things are especially during the pandemic the magic breakfast and things like the Felix project so essential because these things you know when galleries are closed institutions are closed schools are closed people still go hungry things still are going on and I think that there's a sense we have that people who have been able to achieve must look after everyone that they can and that's the artists and then it's the immediate like location totally and I also I think your choice in artists was really progressive and interesting in the sense of supporting artists with practices that it's harder to sell. It wasn't like you were just showing regular, you do show painters, of course, but it wasn't like you were showing artists that had easily accessible works that you could very simply buy. And I think that's also quite an interesting sort of journey in your gallery's history. Well, I was thinking about that too with somebody like Jillian Wearing. I saw her show with her and came to meet her in 1993 at City Racing in South America. Oh, yes. And I went to that show and she was making a lot of her sign work, which is iconic to this day. And you know, her I'm desperate has been, you know, talked about endlessly. It's kind of extraordinary piece that she made. And then it turned out that we did offer a show in 1994 and she revealed to me that it would be all video and I was delighted. Where again, if you have expectation for artists that they will do what you thought they have done, therefore they can't change, she went on to make extraordinary videos after that. And the ones that we showed, I was thinking about this, which are in many museum collections, but we actually showed dancing and peckham at that time. And we also showed a confessor on video. So my interest in work is varied. And I also think if you have that belief, then that can be communicated and it somehow can be received in a way that we've been very, very grateful for. Absolutely. I just want to mention that the Magic Breakfast is an incredible charity at the UK base that feeds kids breakfast from low-income families who are not getting the meals they need so that they can sit and be educated and receive information because when you're hungry, you can't think. And it's an amazing charity that Maureen's attached to and I'm a patron for and they feed. I think now it's like 60,000 kids every morning up and down the country, which is just incredible and sad that it's needed but amazing they're there. And then the Felix project, which you also mentioned, is a charity that collects food that's fresh but it cannot be sold still and then they deliver this surplus food to people that need it and charities and schools so they can then also provide food banks. It's such an important thing as food waste is just unacceptable beyond. How important is spirituality to you Maureen because we mentioned, we touched on the crystals and the tandering quartz which is en route to me to change my life. But it feels like there is, I've heard you mentioned like the cosmic law of dharma and personal behavior virtues and the way you know cosmology and spirituality. These feel like things that as well as considering the artist you work with and the curation and the attention to detail in the space, it feels like there's a higher order that you also lean into and look to for inspiration. Well, I think that if you think about the people who have made art and what art is and even the early evolution of art and how going back to the ancients, what people were thinking of, there's a communication of information and there have been many different visionaries who in a shamanic way have communicated to people about the world trying to understand the cosmos. So I think that from early on I was doing parallel readings with things that were contemporary, with things that were cosmological, things that were spiritual and sometimes I guess when you are trying to find your way and you could feel lost, you could feel concerned, you might need that for guidance. And it's like again kind of finding some meaning in a higher power, something that you know could guide you. I think it's very interesting in a moment now that you know people looking at him off-clint and people are looking at hildogon being in again and things certain discoveries are being made. But somehow all the way along, I guess the goddess thing and the sense of meaning coming from these things has spoken to me and then I've sought to find out more about those things. So I've done quite a bit of reading and also talking to people who I feel have wisdom who can guide me. I want to also touch, but it's incredible. I mean it is and you're right, I did the first things you do to realise is these betrays with the crystals in your office when you used to go in and on top of books that was like what is that doing? That's given you some great energy. I want some of that. But I want to talk about women's contributions to contemporary art and especially women gallery directors and contemporary art women run spaces. You know you've got yourself who's in complete icon but there's so many names that spring up like Barbara Gladstone and Tauri Miro who again is another East London gallery space or open the space there. Marion Goodman, Paula Cooper, Sadie Coles, Kate McGarry, Julia Peyton Jones who now is a director to today's Rope Act gallery but run the Serpentine. There's been incredible trailblazing women. And a vulnerable, of course. Yeah, of the white chapel. You know, these trailblazing women have been there art historical Peggy Guggenheim, you know, that have made incredible impacts and changed the narrative of art and had these incredibly successful gallery spaces and and rosters of artists that have become art historical. Why do you think that is not saying undermining the women can't do it? But why do you think there has been such an affinity for women to run gallery spaces act to such a successful right? I think it's historical that women were given that chance very early on and I think that looking back with contemporary art and with modern art there was a kind of opening that occurred and I think people like Gertrude Stein, the collector who was kind of not necessarily correct collecting women but was showing art and thinking about art and kind of displaying art in her home. And then Peggy Guggenheim, as you mentioned, I think that some of the four runners who were doing some of the first work were able to collect as well as display art and it wasn't questioned somehow. So maybe they were not rivalling the male artists and they were actually able to be enablers and I think that there's a sort of a dual discussion because women who have been able to show art and to great effect and actually have been able to further their galleries and further their artists didn't question historically whether that was possible. Whereas I think women artists have had a different trajectory and they've really had to kind of battle with the sense of the patriarchy and a sort of sense of being overshadowed at times not rightly and unfairly within that. But I think that there was a very, very rich history of women who were able to run spaces, both public and private. And I remember when I was again getting started and still a student at Sarah Lawrence, you know, I was devouring books about Peggy Guggenheim, I think even the fact that she was a little bit wayward made her intriguing, you know, the fact that she was not necessarily an angel. But she was very adventurous and even this recent visit to Venice, which I made because of Philippe Biazza being in the Biennale and being so proud of him and so excited to go. I always make a pilgrimage to her Palazzo. We've actually done that together a number of times. Yes, we have. I do exactly the same. We kindly took me to one of the, I previews, one third, remember? Oh, so we went to a really special breakfast. We did, we did. And what I think is that visiting there and I'm glad I go all the way back to having visited in 1985. I think was my first time seeing it was, we're just, you know, rather late actually. I wish it was earlier, but somehow I remember really looking at the cold of Bedstead and looking at the Eve Tanghi earrings and looking at all the furniture there and the way that she arranged things very, very precisely. And I was so drawn to it and very, very, very inspired by it. And so it's interesting that then just this recent visit, there was an incredible exhibition about surrealism, women and magic in the, you know, in the museum space. So it is there. And it was fabulous looking at Leonora Carrington and looking at Leonora Fini and looking at also Remedios Varos, who is a great artist, who's a Mexican artist that I love, who is absolutely spiritual in what she creates. And she's someone, too, that Felipe Bezos very fond of. And I think that's the other thing with the gallery artist. There's often a discussion that we have about art in general and what we love, [BLANK_AUDIO] with each other. And I often love looking at exhibitions with artists. It's really fantastic. Wolfgang Tillman's was the person who took me to see Ali Fioritz the Soul and I was absolutely drawn to that and it's become one of my favorite films of all time. But I again feel so grateful that he said we must go see this and we went to see it together. Well they show you they show you the world artists. I think that's why we're all so drawn to them because they they open up areas of the world. We haven't considered possibly exploring before and that's what it's about. But you mentioned Gertrude Stein earlier on and a quote that she had is it takes talent to recognize genius which I think relates to you imperfectly Maureen. I think it is you have seemed to have had this talent and continued to have this talent to recognize absolute genius when it comes to art and that's an incredible energy to be around and to know and it's the biggest honor to be talking to you today. Yeah and I know that so many of my like colleagues and contemporaries even just from my generation like are so inspired and pretty much doing what they're doing because of you. Like the example you've set to all of us to be brave, to be bold, to be yourself as well I think and you know not every gallery has to be the same. It's about us all sharing all the different facets like all the different rooms of art and I I I can't thank you enough for the contribution you've made to culture and to contemporary art like it's just like there's no one else like you it's extraordinary. Oh thank you both so much it's really hard breaking to hear that and in a good way I hope yeah in a good way and no and like I say we all are on the surface to try and leave it in a better condition than we found it. Yeah okay well we're going to get to our final questions we've you know but before that as well as collecting on I know that you have a collection yourself you also collect gloves you scenes have acquired a massive collection of gloves how many gloves are we up to now and when was the last time you got a pair? Well that's one of those ones there's a certain surrealism to collecting gloves and there are certain people who make them who are artists in my mind and so I did actually collect something from Maison Fabre recently that I had gotten from their shop in Paris which I go to they are very intriguing because they have on them printed as if tattooed on your fingers love and hate and they're just the most wonderful gloves I can't wait to wear them. Oh God the gloves need to show themselves. Exactly you're never true. So the questions we ask every guest the first one is if you could do an art heist and I know that you have a great collection and you have the Reverend Howard Finster that you live with amazing outlier artist if you could have any work of art in the world to yourself to live with what would it be and why? That's a very interesting one probably I would collect the Frida Kahlo portrait that she made of herself with Diego Rivera sort of in her far head. I don't know it's title but I do think that that's a very significant and very haunting picture. Yeah the one the one where he's like on on her mind. Constantly. Who do you live with like collectivising? I did just mention Howard Finster but I'm sure I saw it years ago a Catherine of Fritch sculpture. I have one of her editions of yes her Vendana editions which I do love that I have. Of course I have works by the gallery artists there's a number of pieces by many of them that I collect. It's a very idiosyncratic collection but it's somehow is meaningful to me and one of the things I make a point of doing is I often collect things from my fellow galleries and colleagues and so I've actually bought work from you know Sadie Coles. I bought work from Kate McGarry. I bought work from Harold Street Gallery. I bought work from Mother's Tang Station. The approach gallery. Variety of different places and I own counter editions and I like that I have those works and they're specific artists that I don't represent but I admire in other people's programs. I looked up the Frida Kahlo images so there are two paintings that I found. One is Diego and I which is an earlier work I think from 1940s and then another one from the earlier 1940s which is Diego on my mind. I think maybe that's the one. It's Diego on my mind yes. Well now I'll know what you pick up in the highest. Can you just direct me to where is that hanging please? The other question we ask every guest is what is your favourite colour? Well this is a bit predictable and I'm slightly embarrassed by saying black but it's black. For everyone who might not have met you or doesn't know you, black is a colour that I do associate a lot with you because you often wear black. Your hair is also the most beautiful black colour and can you explain why you love black so much? Well I think it has a depth to it and I really think that I like it almost in the way that the Japanese talk about black as being a kind of elegant colour. A colour that's not only kind of, it has like a lot of spiritual meaning and kind of connectedness to you know the universe in certain ways. When I wear it and when I actually think of it it's in textures so it's like about the shadow and I'm very interested in the concept of the shadow. That's another thing I do a lot of reading about and I think that black evokes the shadow. So when I did my show called The Hidden it's also thinking a lot about the shadow. Marina De Luner is Wolfgang Tillman's has named you which also roughly translates as dark head one of the moon. Indeed indeed and I do have a kind of fascination with the moon. I'm very interested in the idea of moon goddesses and the way that the moon guides us. So a lot of things that have been kind of attributed to the moon, the moon you know guides the tides is dealing with things to do with the crops it's to deal with you know just the way that the universe kind of evolves and and kind of revolves in the world. And so yeah I think that the moon blackness and somehow all that is lunar is fascinating to me. Yeah and it's also the light isn't it? It's not just the darkness it's like yes moon light. Yeah yeah yeah. What's the best advice you've ever received when it comes to your career and art practice I guess? Well I'm going to mention somebody that I miss very much and who did actually give me some advice that meant a great deal to me in 1991 and I'm thinking about this because of recessions and things like that. And I sort of had to rethink and restart my gallery in 1992 and '93 kind of that 10 year period had led to a move that hadn't gone well and I needed to kind of think about the future. And Cost and Schubert came to see me and I said in a very histrionic and theatrical way it's over it's absolutely over. And he said it is an over you must continue. I hung out with Castan in stitches one night Castan Schubert me Michael Craig Martin and we ended up at a drag bar and this was about 10 years ago. As you were there there was one of the best nights and I always found Castan to be incredibly generous and whenever I turned up in his space he would be there and be like right until talking me through everything and you know as a young collector feeling as we all do and still continues to do at times and timidated by everything like yourself he was a welcoming character who you could gravitate towards and feel safe. Yes well I think that he touched many and he is someone who was very encouraging to me and I do appreciate that and think about him quite a bit now that he's gone. You know there's another fact about you which is that you showed officially and vice really early on in your space didn't you in London. I did I did I think that one of the things about the early first 10 years and the the project space aspect of what I was doing was that I look back at that and think these were not people that I was going to represent or get to represent or even think at the time was you know possible but I did get to show them they did come over to London they wandered through Broadway market and bought things for sandwiches and came back to the little house with them. I got to show Christian Markley I got to show Charlie Ray I got to show Mike Kelly there were a variety of different shows I showed Richard Deacon actually with listen galleries blessing there were a number of things they were group shows that had you know claustolton bird's ray guns in and it was it was very exciting in those early days because it wasn't about me representing it was more curating and thinking and getting to work with artists that I really wanted to do projects with and the things that they did with Fishley Bice they showed in my space and then they also showed something at the ICA and spoke with Richard Wentworth about De Lafterdinger their film that they had shown and they actually talked about making do and getting by and created a friendship with him that went on for years and continues even with you know David Bice no longer being with us to this day with Fishley so this and you know Parkette and all these things that were happening artists that I worked with getting into Parkette as a magazine making editions with Parkette leading to the editions that they then made with you know other people counter editions very especially and then things for the serpentine I was thinking about it there's been quite a trajectory and I do love collaborating with public space so I like that when the artists show with us I also like that we do have a role to play when they show with public space and I'm very encouraging of that I feel like that's a very important way of expanding their practice and expanding what is known about them. It's also so much part of your DNA because you curated exhibitions for a long time in other spaces like with the Henry Moore Sculpture Trust that amazing show The Cauldron which has the most beautiful orange hardback catalog and I remember when I first met you going back into the archives of all your earlier shows and trying to like almost like find out all the details about all the shows you've done and I learned about like Angela Bullock and Georgina Star and Jillian Wearing and like Steve Pippin you know and Christine Ball and just from that show. It's interesting too because Roger Malbert when the Hayward Touring Exhibitions asked me to do a show again in that kind of liminal period the period of like 92 to 94 I did my Walter Wall Show that toured and that has a wonderful catalog too and he was very instrumental in saying why don't you and I thought rather than do something that was all about objects again my conceptual side came out and I thought people who worked directly on the wall like people like the great Lawrence Weiner who came over to the serpentine and actually did his wall work himself with one assistant it was really incredible that the Baumgarten came by the Kruger participated in that there were some fabulous things that happened and many many many great artists did these wall works that then were included in the catalog together with artist pages so all these things then informed like how I would go on to continue with the gallery but I think having that opportunity that I really still to the state thank Roger for was was very very important and to have been recognized because of my project space status as being able to do that not being viewed entirely as a dealer or only a gallery was a very great thing about maybe things being less defined at those times. What is your greatest achievement then Maureen because you know we discussed earlier upcoming we have Wolfgang Tillman who's going to have a major survey show at a moment New York which then travels to MoMA San Francisco which is a huge moment for any artist that's like our history cemented pinnacle you know these are experiences that you're having with the artist you've represented all this time what are your greatest achievements and how do you stay ambitious to this to this level. Well I think it's again it's it's it's the engagement being true and everything being mainly about the artists I mean it's it's what they are able to do and then you act as an enabler to assist and yeah it's it's it's it's very one has a lot of gratitude to be able to be on that path with them for such a such a long time and I do think that this is a very particular benchmark here absolutely when are you writing the book oh yeah that would be so good maybe it'll just be a picture book that's still be great that's still be great well this has just been incredible I'm going to be seeing you soon because I'm out here filming at the minute in New York so I will be seeing you for Wolfgang's big you know moment here which is very exciting very very exciting and and people can check out shows your space in East London three cults lane you have as we said Marina Deluna which is in Hove there's a new studio M that opened at the Rochelle school and canteen which is off Arnold Circus in East London which you opened up to 2020 which is another invite invite we're not invite only but you can book online to go and see shows there well you know you can actually it's open Wednesday through Sunday I think that was during the pandemic period but it's open Wednesday through Sunday and it's open 11 to 6 as if you show I hope you do have to ring a buzzer but of course yes you can be let it and no and I must say that studio M and being in Rochelle and actually in Rochelle school and near to the beloved Rochelle canteen which is just extraordinary has been a very great addition to our little constellation of spaces and I think all of this is actually adding to what you're talking about what keeps you alive what keeps you going what keeps you vital is change in growth and for everyone listening you can go to Maureen Paley.com and what I recommend you do is go to the exhibitions tab and then obviously look at what's on right now but also look at what's on in the past tab and you can go all the way back I think to like the early 90s maybe like 93 and you can it's such a rich resource of all the exhibitions Maureen has kind of curated and overseen and discovered and championed so many different artists who over the years have just really changed are you know for the better like James Welling love James Welling I think we could talk forever Maureen but I think what Maureen Galas I think we love Maureen Galas but I think what's great is that people are going to hopefully listen to this episode and go and check out the spaces and meet you and engage with you and have the experiences that we had when we first went into the art world and discovered it and became our biggest passion via you you are you know at being an enabler can have negative connotations sometimes but with you being an enabler is magical and thank you so much for doing that and you want to Instagram Maureen I have indeed yes so the gallery has an Instagram account and it's Maureen Paley and you can look that up amazing so you can follow Maureen there and we'll also be posting images to talk off and looking forward to seeing you very soon and actually I've always loved going to your dinners Maureen that's another thing you do very well yes at St John at St John which has been a wonderful series you're very loyal to the book yeah we used to go to be used to take a lot yes and now we're using Rochelle canteen quite a bit wonderful thank you so much for coming on and we see you soon everyone thanks for listening everyone we'll be back very soon bye bye you've been listening to talk art with Robert Diamond and Russell Toby follow us on Instagram at talk art where you can view images of all artworks discussed in today's episode with music by Jack Northover subscribe to talk art at apple podcast Spotify eight cast or wherever it is that you get your podcasts give us a rating and write us a comment thanks for listening