Matty Greene - How To Turn An Interview Into A Winning Conversation. And Create The Dream Role You Deserve

They set themselves up in a frame where they put somebody above them. And as a consequence, I'm coming trying to real-time sell myself into a series of boxes that I don't really understand what they are or what they do. And I'm trying to get that, you know, as I said, real-time connection. And the thing is when you come from a position of, as we sort of talked about before, right? If you come from a position of needle-lack, that creates an imbalance. And that's not what you're looking to try and imbalance in your energy, in your. Well, as how you turn up, right? So if I'm sitting there and I turn up and I have a conversation with you, we're equal. We're just two human beings having a conversation, engaging in a discussion. And then we can co-create something that's going to be pretty magical, no other. But if I'm sitting there and I come from a position where you're an employer and I desperately need your job because I have a need, more money, I need, money, I don't like where I am. And I'm coming from that place of need and I'm trying to sell myself. You feel that. So we talked about the quantum, we talked about the energetic, but the neurophysiological and the psychological sign. I'm looking, I'm feeling the intensity coming from you. I'm listening to the pitch and the international in your voice. I'm looking at the look in your face, your mannerisms, your gesticulations are going to change. You're going to look tense, you're going to look a bit uptight. I know. Good day guys and welcome to another episode of the before we get started podcast with your host me Simon Gould, the founder at Sydney Digital Marketing Agency. And today I have my good friend, Maddie Green, back on the pod based off the success of the first one that we did together not so long ago. Maddie's joined me to come back in and dive a little bit deeper into the four pillars that we had outlined in the first pod. For those of you who don't know who Maddie Green is, Maddie's a registered psychologist, he's been in the space for, well, he's been a registered psychologist for about 30 years, but his career has dived deep into executive search, placing very high performing executives, leaders, CEOs globally across fintech, banking, insurance, construction, and in very, very lucrative roles, you know, sort of up to eight figure packages. So, Maddie knows a thing or two about people and performance, and welcome to the show, Maddie. There's very, so great to be back. I really enjoyed the first one and the feedback and all the stuff we got at the Sydney first, deeply hum. So good. Just happy to be back. So good. No, the first one out of the box, it got a lot of feedback, a lot of engagement, and I'm excited to dive deeper on this one. And we've talked about the four pillars that you work with or have worked with over the years. Yeah. Starting, I think it was with commercial, and then we had just somatic psychological and then the quantum based near for yes. And I think we're going to kick off today with a deep dive into commercial. So before we get started, give me a top line overview of what the, the main things are that you are sort of coming through this commercial lens. So the main thing for me, as I was kind of thinking and just kind of feeling my way through, was how do we kind of make this conversation is deliberate, but also, you know, connect with as many people as possible. So how do we make this as relevant to as many people as we possibly can? And I was thinking about how do I take, you know, the 30 years of psychological and then the commercial experiencing a press it into, you know, a short sound bite that's kind of have impact. And so what I landed on was, you know, the interview and that constructors, you know, people go for an interview and how consequence I'm coming trying to real time sell myself into a series of boxes that I don't really understand what they are, what they do. And I'm trying to get that, you know, as I said, real time connection and the thing is when you come from a position of, as we sort of talked about before, if you come from position of need or lack, that creates an imbalance. And that's not what you're looking to try and imbalance in your, in your energy, in your, well, as how you turn up, right? So if I'm sitting there and I turn up and I have a conversation with you, we're equal, we're just two human beings having a conversation, engaging in a discussion. And then we can co-create something that's going to be pretty magical. But if I'm sitting there and I come from a position and you're an employer and I desperately need your job because I then need more money, I need money, I don't like where I am and I'm coming from that place of need and I'm trying to sell myself. You'll feel that. So we talked about the quantum, we talked about the energetic, but the neurophysiological and the psychological side, I'm looking at face, your mannerisms, your gesticulations are going to change, you're going to look tense, you're going to look a bit uptight. And I've got a minion gig pro, you've got the phase lock we talked about in the first episode. Yeah, on the first episode you talked about that where you literally walk into the room. So you get the vibe, right? But when you sit down with somebody, you get a vibe for them. You know, they're really relaxed, they seem really connected, they're really ceiling. And we had a great conversation. And so this is the frame, right? I'm kind of, you know, everybody's been for a need of you, everybody's been for the job. But if you go for a conversation rather than an interview and that's what I used to say to all of my candidates, this isn't an application. We're just going into you at just two people sitting down and you want to get the balance, you want to get the 50/50. You are buying as much as you are selling. That's a really good point to pause you at there because you've said over the couple days that we've sort of been having this conversation about this second episode. Yeah. Let's break that down a little bit in terms of that because that's a big thinking shift for a lot of people who are going into an interview situation to sell themselves. So maybe double click on that one for us. Yeah, so I mean, the thing that's really important is to understand if you are again coming from that position of needle wand, what you are creating, and we've all sat across from somebody in a situation where you can feel that that anxiety from one of a better description. And so if you come from that position, you're only going to create a certain dynamic. Where if you come when you're just having it in interaction and it's a balanced conversation, again, what is available to you is exponentially more. So is we sort of pause on the frame? And then what I used to do is I would go into really getting somebody because the most important thing is if you're going into that situation, you want to understand who you are, why you're there, and a general desire. Now the desire isn't to, I want the job. The desire is to create connection. So you've got to make connection within yourself to be able to have connection within somebody else. So it's literally like if you go to try and sell a product in an interview that you don't really understand what it does, nor why you are there, nor what the pain point of the perchanged or buyer is. Mate, what do you think the likelihood is you're going to? It's marketing for my perspective. We're putting my marketing hat back on. It's marketing 101. You know, know your audience, know your USB, know the unique selling proposition. Absolutely. And if you come back and then one of the other questions I used to ask individuals all the time was you know, you spend as an organization, millions, sometimes hundreds of millions of dollars annually to understand your differentiated value proposition and your North Star strategy. So you'd understand where we're going, why we're going, how we're going to get there, how much money, what kind of return, which markets, what products, and you'd look at mitigating risks. So you go multiple markets, multiple products. And so you'd spend millions understanding that North Star. And then what you do as a commercial entity is you then roll that through to structure people's systems processes or all the KPIs or your short term incentive or your long term incentive all is aligned to that North Star. And that North Star is then communicated to shareholders, boards, markets, all that sort of stuff. You are constantly, everyone in that business is micro managing every single day, nuance, supple degrees. All the way down to the people who touch the customer and customer support, customer service, engineering, every other part of your business to hit that North Star. Now you think of the intentionality that goes behind that and the understanding and the time, energy and effort. And one of the questions I used to sit there and especially with guys that were struggling with the concept when I'm working with them as an individual, I would say how much time, how much energy you start to dot and they go, okay, so if you think about how much time and how much energy you've thought in turns of strategically who you are, why you turn up, where you're going, how did you get to where you are now, and what is your differentiated value proposition? But who are you? Yeah. And the look of despair and visceral discomfort would sit on their face. When you're kind of sitting there asking them to try and understand, confront themselves, confront themselves. It's not a confrontation, it's literally find a word, but just find a pathway I have never ever thought about this. Yeah. And you go, So I would then go. So if you think about how much time and engineer that you've invested in yourself, understanding that strategic value proposition while you turn up who you are, and what you want in terms of intentionally creating something in terms of that next step for you, view put as much time and engine to that as you do, and then you'll apply that to your business. - Yeah. - Where do you think the business would be? - Yeah. - Or where do you think you'd be in terms of applying the perspective? And most of the guys would get to, and this is not just a gender-based thing, this is men and women. - Yeah. - Most of the people would sit there and just go, "I'd basically be unemployed. "I'd be unemployed." - Yeah, "Unemployable." - "Unemployable." But then you, so if you turn up to the interview, then you are at the behest of the values in the institution, the organization, it doesn't matter where the C1, C2, C3. You are indoctrinated and you are just taking on their values. Now, if you think about, we'll come back to the beginning. What is the primary value construct? Maximizing a shareholder value. - Hmm. - Hmm. - So now, that is, and then you get on the merry-go-round, and we'll come back to the next day. - Most gonna say, yeah. - 'Cause the individual, you get on a life journey and you go on that journey, and we'll break that down when we sort of, because what I wanna do is, I wanna give the listeners the frame that I use that I constructed over decades. - Awesome. - You go on that self-discovery journey to really think about how you can turn up intentionally, take that next step. - Well, one of, excellent. One of the lines that you came up with, or that we spoke about recently, that really made me stop and think and really struck home. It's probably a good segue, but yeah. Without telling me, you said, without telling me, where you live, who you work for, and what school you went to. - Yeah. - Tell me who you are. - Yeah, yeah, that's it. - And, just again, for the listeners, I'll repeat that, without telling me, where you live, who you work for, and what school you went to. Who are you? - Yeah, yeah. - And I'd love to, if anybody's listening, they wanna put something in the comments, but back to you, Maddie, I love that one. - Yeah. - So where you'd start is you'd pick up the phone, right? Because that's trying to get an understanding of their identity, and that's a trick you want to start with. So where you'd start is you'd pick up the phone, go, look, I'm speaking to Dave Merri, I've got this great job. This is an opportunity, it's really expansive. They're going through this transformation, and it's pretty exciting. So, and this is who I am. - Yeah. - And this is my background. I'd really like to sit down and have a conversation, if you're open for a coffee. No, I kind of remember somebody saying no, when you're launching with that, because it's an inquiry into you've given them enough with the psychology and then the commercial aspect. And you just go, my God, I can't, yeah, of course, I'll make time. - It's how we met. - Yeah, it's how we met. - It's exactly how we met. But I was trying to get you on a Zoom call, that you just said, "I'd like to come in to meet with you and get to know you." - Yeah, have a conversation. - Have a conversation. - Yeah. - And then, you know, what turn for supposed to be half an hour, I think turned into two and a half hours. And, you know, we finally finished that conversation and I haven't stopped ever since. So, you know, you would sit with somebody, and you asked, you develop a bit of rapport and a bit of a frame, and then you said, like, my, the question I'd ask them is, like, just tell me a little bit about how you got here. - Yeah. - Like, what's the journey been? And depending on where they'd start, because what you wanted to do is help them get back to the lens, you know, the zero to seven, that was probably too far back for most people with commercial sounds. But, where'd you go to school? Where'd you grow up? Did you go to uni? And so, it's a frame of really where you're trying to get to is, so you're born into a family, you grew up in a certain area, you went to a certain school, now those certain school and that certain area, they, you develop a certain number of lenses, right? Sociocultural, sociodemographic. And so, why did you go to that uni? Well, that uni was close, all my mates were going to that uni. - Yeah. - Why did you do those subjects? And why did you do that degree? Mum, dad, culturally, I needed to, was engineering, or finance, whatever it was. Was it your passion? Well, I was good at it. And then, so again, unintentional decision. And then you're getting, you do your degree, did you change? No, no, I did that one. Okay, did you enjoy it? Well, I finished it. Yeah, like, yeah, we was okay. I had a great time at you. - Ticking boxes. - I'm ticking boxes. - Yeah. - Again, is it intentional? - Yeah. - And so then you go, so you had to get the job. Oh, dad knew something. I saw something in the paper. I applied online. It just happened to be, it's just, it's literally, you like the feather in the breeze. - Yeah. - And then you got your first job. You got a couple of promotions. You got a headhunter. Somebody left. You got promoted again. And then you start on that life journey, right? And then you go, I met my husband, met my wife. - Yeah. - And now we're doubled in come no kids. And we're renting. We're having a great time. And of course, the next thing you do is a great Aussie dream by house. - Yeah. - So buy a two bedroom unit. And then all of a sudden you find having a great time. Someone's pregnant. (laughs) And then so baby number one, that works okay, because you're in your two bedroom units to be cramped, like you're living the dream now. And then so, but then there's childcare fees. And then you go, well, actually now baby number two has come along. - Yeah. - And all of a sudden you're going, well now there's a primary and then there's a secondary income, because now we've got to kind of look after the kids and maybe then there's a child number three. And all of a sudden now that's, that secondary income doesn't make sense because the childcare fees outweigh the secondary income. And there's more and more. So now that the two bedroom unit definitely doesn't work. So now you've got three kids and we need a backyard, we need a pool. - Yeah. - We need a bigger car. Now a holiday is an event. It's not just you and your husband, or your wife, it's an event. You've got kids three different age groups where we're going to go, how we can get there. And then you've got school fees. And then you've got a mortgage. And then it gets beat. And then you get on the snowball. And again, all these decisions you think that you're making so unintentionally. And this is a thing, but I used to sit in front of these people at these flexion points in their life and you would take them on this deconstruction of their life. - Yeah. - And you'd go, "Where was the end?" Where was the, where was the North Star? And like you can't change like the Buddha said, you can't untake a past breath. You can't take a future breath. You can only take the breath that is in front of you. This would be present. - Yeah. - And it's about the realization that if you go on this journey to understand your ikigai, which is your life purpose, and we'll break that down a second. But as you go on that journey and you sit in front of somebody, it's like, I can help you go on this journey. So you now are going to, from now on be intentional. And it's not a one-lane thing. So many people would sit there in executive searching. So I've got a job. It's a box. I'm trying to jam you in that box as fast as humanly possible because then I can maximize my shareholder return. And that's what I did. I really did differently. It was always about you as an individual. And so sometimes I would place over 25 years. I'd place some three or four times. - It says, yeah, amazing. - You know, and I would go, they'd become my clients, they're my candidates, and then they'd be somewhere else. And so it was this really beautiful evolution that I've really working collaboratively co-creating a journey and understanding intentionally with people. And this is the thing that I'm trying to help, you know, people understand is, you can do this. Like you don't have to be the feather in the breeze. Set the North Star, understand who you are, and why you turn up, and help create that differentiated value proposition for them. And we can get into the rest of the frame that may not be sitting in the question. So I have to ask, the question I had was, you've had, except before, you know, you've met with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, thousands of people. - Thousands, yeah. - Thousands of people over the years. And you've taken this approach and the framework, we're gonna break it down shortly. But what I'd like to maybe understand or inspire the listeners with is, what do you see before we get into the framework? What do you see is the biggest pieces of resistance from, and we're talking, I'm talking specifically here about the senior executives, you know, the high-powered people that you're working with, who have come to you and said, "Shit, Maddie, I'm 55. I've got this role, you know, King of the Castle." But I've just not got that fulfillment there. What do you think of the main, let's keep it to two or three barriers that stop high-powered leaders, executives, CEOs of both genders, diving a little bit deeper and find fear. - That's a number one thing, right? So you start to unpick some of these sort of stuff and you just go, "How did I get here?" And then that look of, "Oh, wow." And you know, you say, "You know, I'm the King of the Castle." And like, I'm reaching and I have all of this structure and then I have a societal structure because at work, there's a lot of structure. There's a lot of expected, there's a lot of boxes, there's HR, there's legal, there's all these different paradigms around you. And if you're a senior executive, you hold a position of power through that structure. And people have to, you know, capitulate to fit into the box. So all of a sudden, when you start removing that frame, because this is a thing that you see those senior executives and they are successful in one lane in life, you know, because those skill sets that they develop in that environment are not applicable to any other part of the world. They're not applicable to friendships, family, certainly not applicable to kids, your wife, your husband, your friends, your, you know, your mom, your dad, your brother, your sister. None of those rules are there, none of the structures are there. So these people infest so heavily in this unintentional journey that they go on. And then they get, you know, either retrenched or they become redundant or they're, They retire and they make that is, that is a devastating realization, pension point for them. Because all of a sudden, like we were chatting about before, they used to think all these people were calling them because of who they were. And then they have this epiphany to realize that it wasn't them. It was the role and what they sat in front of, the reason why all these people were contacting them. So if I say, if you ask me, you know, what is the number one by far unilaterally across all age groups, or across all sectors of the market, across all countries and all cultures, when you start expanding and stepping back and getting, and it's always about the perspective, because if you can stand far enough out of the play, you stop narrating and being involved and dancing to somebody else's script, you get to write your own. But in that perspective, there's a lot of fear. Because I know I'm wired, I understand this. And when I stand back and I see what they think is they're trying to think their way through this problem with the structure in the school set they've always had. And that's not applicable in this world anymore. And applicable with the friends, family, I mean, even things as simple as health. So you say it's not applicable anymore in this world to think it through? No, no. Because the world that they now can see, they're opening slowly their eyes to the structure that exists in a corporate environment doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. And so what they know is what they recognize is I am now consciously and hideously incompetent. And I don't have any of these sort of skill sets. And that results quite often in that mid-life crisis, where I'm just going, people say, "Don't go, what is this all about? What does it mean? Why am I here?" I've got the house, the houses and the trips overseas and the cars and the boats and the. So the number one thing, buddy, it's fear. And so you've got to really gently lean into the journey. And that's why that structure is really important. You sort of. It's the first thing is like, how did you get here? And you take them on that journey of self-discovery about, and that's about connecting the dots. Yeah. How did I actually get here? Like, where do I want to go from here? What's important to me? Because if you go, it's kind of like, you know, it always amazes me that people go, "This is me at work." And this is where we get to another part of the frame. He's odd-asked, three words of phrase. You just describe yourself to me. And they'd kind of sit there and again have nothing. Describe what you good at at work. I wonder, that's your strengths, development areas. We'll get to that. And this is back to your question. You know, if you take you, we can't describe, you know, what and how you do work. And we can't describe where you grew up. How would you describe yourself to me? Yes. Yes. Take those frames away. Yeah. Who are you? Who are you? I love that one. I love that one. And again, that look of. And it's a visceral discomfort. And you've got somebody who's used to being a multi-million top of the tree, highly intelligent, really articulate. And then you ask them a question about themselves. It's all outward. That's it. That's just so definitions of the. Do you remember we talked about, you know, that psychological phrase about the locus of control? Yes. And everything's about the stuff. I have got all the stuff. I am ticking all the boxes. Yeah. I am providing for my family. I am going further and further up the food chain. Look at the title I now have in society. And everybody moves behind me because I am this person. Yeah. And that's my identity. So if you remove that identity, who are you? And so this comes back to the interview. You know, it's like if you turn up as an identity that somebody else has guided and is only driven by that one value, which is creating shareholder value and growing market share. It's just confined to money. And so you. Of course. You knew on set underneath that, but like fundamentally who are you? So this is the thing turning up for an interview is creating a construct where you are just going to create a very small, very limited. I'm in my experience of 33 decades, 30 odd years. Yeah. You're not going to be happy there. Yeah. Whereas you re-engineer, this is who I am. This is why I'm here. I'd love to have a conversation with you about you as a human being because behind you, in this conversation, I'm going to ask some really beautiful open-ended questions and you're going to feel that authenticity and you're going to feel the vulnerability that I bring to this conversation. And then you are going to be struck by that. Now, it's a spectrum, right? Because the right person is going to be deeply engaged and intrigued by that. The wrong person is going to be fearful and challenging of that. Yeah. And you know what? Right. You are self-selecting out. Yeah. But if you create the chemistry and now all of a sudden you are co-creating in a conversation, now what you've got is a situation where there's two human beings looking at what they can create together because quite often you've got someone sitting on the other side who's got no idea because they're trying to employ someone to do something they've never done before and they can't do. And they don't understand. So let me give you a scenario, right? Business has been expanding. It doesn't really matter what sector. We've grown from point A to point B. The skill set in terms of the CEO and the senior executives no longer, you don't have the people systems processes or know-how. And so we need to scale up through that next phase. You don't usually take some investment. Yeah. Just hypothetically some private equity guys come in, they dump 20% into your organisation. Now all of a sudden you've got two guys on a board, never had one of those before. And now there's risk, compliance, board, governance. Never seen any of those before. Now there's an HR department. What department? Yeah. And now you've got a chief legal officer and you've got a head of finance. And I'm the guy who's head of strategy and I drive new markets and maybe I own sales as well. And now I'm interviewing somebody who's got to drive this new innovation because we're opening new markets and I'm going, I don't understand any of this stuff that they're talking about. I've got no idea about this new market. We're supposed to operate it. The heaven forbid it's overseas. Yeah. And then you get, and so then if you go in there with an interview, can you imagine this individual's got a list of boxes that they've heard of. Someone's given them that and they need to tick. But if you go in there and you have a conversation, you go, yeah, look, I'm really intrigued to understand. I've been on this journey. I love change. I love supporting people. I love co-creating. Yeah. Really, can I have a conversation? And all of a sudden, authentic vulnerability, oh man, I completely remember being there. You know, I know what that feels like. I've, I've, and then what you do is I give you these, wrap it up with a ribbon examples, right? And what that is is when you're in the co-creation, the authentic vulnerability is, let me take you on the journey. And so what you do is like, when you're having this conversation, let's say with Mary, and Mary's never done it before. And I'm having this narrative, this interaction with her. And we're exploring something and it's, it's identified a space in her business that needs to be filled, which is trying to do that with another human being. Again, it's always about the people. And so now Mary feels really connected to you. She's deeply intrigued here because you've asked some great questions that she kind of can't really answer. Yeah. But also because you've created such a satan environment for her because you're so connected to yourself. Yeah. She's feeling this is great. And you go, I'd, do you mind if I give you an example? And so here's the context, Mary. This is what was happening for my business and this is where I was. These were the people context. There's a first bit. Keystaker or Gageroom is the second. And so these are the people who were around me. This is what we did. And then outcome. And this is what we were able to achieve. And you get two minutes to wrap it up with a ribbon. Yeah. And so know what you've got is a foundational, safe, trusted, values, but values based conversation with Mary. And you are taking Mary on a journey. And now you're giving her a working example of where you've actually addressed this. And you've given her a two minute soundbinding in her head. The chicken now take to the CEO of a board or whomever else. Yeah. And she loves you now. Then HR, green dock box ticking ex that left the building in a couple of minutes. And now she's going, oh my goodness, this individual is so amazing. This Simon guy. I need to introduce you to the CEO. I need to introduce you to the board. Would you be open? Now I'm asking, would you come in like a consultant and have another conversation? So you're not sitting there going, oh, did I do a good job? You have co-created together something that didn't exist. Yeah. You've been yourself. You've been transparent. You've been authentic. And I think authenticity is definitely the word that we use a lot in terms of what we do at the agency. And also the people that I bring on to the pod, we want to have these authentic conversation where people can, as they did with the first one, they can turn around and say, wow, I really got something out of that. I really felt that this conversation was authentic. And that has ripple effects in terms of inspiring people to perhaps be maybe just a little bit less fearful. Brave. Just a bit more brave. Yeah, brave. There you go. That's the opposite of it. That's it. And then you become as good as you used to say, you know, you become the change you want to see in the world. And so again, if we just pause right on the structure. And then we kind of talk about the quantum principles we talked about in the first podcast program. And so you go quantum principles, superposition, all versions of reality co-exist simultaneously. So as we are going on this enlightenment journey for ourselves and you go through this structure and it's holistic. It's not like putting a drop of blue dye in the corner of the bar and saying it's going to stay there in the corner, which is what a lot of people think it's like this is just work. And I'm going to say you are a human being, you don't exist, just work. You are a part of the collective consciousness. Right. So you've got the frame for the quantum. So all versions of reality co-exist simultaneously. And then you've got the, you've got like it's the radio, right? So if we grab one of our iPhones or you know, an android and you're sitting there and just going, I am just trying to find not a podcast. I mean, you've got the entirety of the knowledge of humankind on that device. Right. So you've got petabytes of data floating around. Do you see any of it? Can you taste it? Can you touch it? Nothing. But if you learn how to use that phone properly, you can select and create in that very intentional way, that beautiful connection to that song that you love that you want to share with somebody in that moment. You think about it, you get an electrical impulse, you go on to your phone, you go through the right app, you're very intentional about what you create because you know where you're coming from, you know what it's going to do. You're sitting with that other person. I've got this great song. It reminds me of when I was younger, really loved a shit feeling. And all of a sudden your phase locking brain, heart coherence is kicking off and then you find the song. And now what I am creating is, you know, multifactorial, but I'm going into reality. I'm going into the quantum and creating something very intentionally. Now I could have picked any song. I could have picked any podcast. I could have picked any movie. And that's the quantum. You can get any of these things at any time. Yes. But if you don't turn up intentionally and understand how to use the device, you're the device. It's you. And I think most people think more in terms of a binary outcome. Good, bad, black, white, yes, no. But when you're talking about anything being possible, you know, you can think to yourself, oh, there's two possible outcomes here, but there's billions of possible outcomes. And a lot of them, as you say, exist all at once. It's infinite. And it's infinite. It's infinite. There's infinite outcomes because if you actually sit there and just think of these interactions as with us. Yeah. And like, if you're going, you're trying desperately to think, what's Maddie going to say next? And you've got no idea what I'm going to say next. And if you're kind of through control, then the energy exchange is profoundly different. Yes. But your ability to be able to change what I say, you might be able to influence. And the thing is, if you're intentional about the space that you hold and how you turn up, then what you're going to create around you is, it's like Hebs Law. It nerves it. Fired it either. The more intentional you are, the better the likelihood you're going to be. You're going to create in the present moment because you don't want to be future bombing yourself. Yeah. You want to be really present. And this is the same thing in the conversation. Once the conversation going to be like Maddie, what should I say if this happens? Well, yeah, let's talk about how you're going to find yourself being present. Let's reconnect with you. If you find yourself being a little uncomfortable, how do you take that deep breath? How do you reconnect with yourself in that moment? And then how do you find that connection with yourself? So then all of a sudden you're co-creating something that's centered connected, balanced with somebody else. One thing you've mentioned as well that comes up often, is that non-attachment? Not being attached to the outcome. Well, it's like the Buddhist principle of loving non-attachment. But what you're trying to do is like in a really simple form. The term is you're looking for the gift, not the trade. So if I'm sitting here just going, "Man, in this interaction, I want something." So buddy, I'm having this conversation because I'm really trying to drive a certain initiative and a certain outcome. You're going to energetically feel that and I'm coming from a place of lack. Whereas if I'm sitting there just going, "Man, I'm really hoping to just do a beautiful interaction. I've got no idea where it's going." So I don't have any attachment to what it's going to be. But I just said deeply grateful for actually just the chance to be here with somebody I really care about and really have a great conversation and something that I'm not like, "No, I don't hear where that goes." And whatever it's going to be, that can help one person. Just one person. Man, that's what I did that LinkedIn post. And I got a call from a client and he told me about his mom. Yes, that's right. They had that light in a rod moment. Man, I seriously had to pull the car over. You know, I had to pull the car. I had a tea stream down my face. And I'm just going, "You know what I like?" It doesn't matter if this doesn't touch one other person. That client's mom would never, I would never would have got the opportunity to have that connection with her. And she gets that light in a remote 20 years of counseling. And as a consequence, the conversation that he has with his mom and the impact that has on their family and him and his kids and his wife and then he how he turns up in every other aspect of his life. It's like a ripple in the pond. And it's, you know, talking, I said this on the last pod, you know, everything's a story. Everything has a story to it. And to be able to give people analogies that they can nod their head and go, "Yeah, actually, that makes perfect sense." That really struck. Strikes home with me so people can relate to it. And then they can fall back when they find themselves going back into the melee of daily life, the grind, the family, kids, the grind. For me, you know, it was that one breath that you pointed out to me when we first started working together, it was that one breath. And I can go, I can go there, it costs me nothing to get there. And it's with me all the time. I've just got to go, "Oh, yeah, take that breath. Just take that breath." And for anybody listening, I know that might sound not even woo, woo, but it's just being able to remind myself in a situation that I might be not breathing and therefore I'm feeling a little bit more tense or anxious about something just to take a big diaphragmatic breath. And it instantly changes the way my whole body feels and my brain feels as well. Okay. So what happens, right? Like just because some people go, "Oh, that's very, I breathe all the time." Yeah. I've tried deep breathing. It doesn't really do anything for me. But what we did with the anchor that breath, right? So we were going on experience, we're having a conversation. And as you are going on the journey of the conversation, things are shifting energetically within you all the time. And then I'm asking you and I'm suddenly, I'm looking at, I'm feeling your energy, I'm looking at you, I'm looking at your body language and I'm asking you questions and you started lifting your eyes up into the left and you kept pausing. And so as you were pausing, I could see this was getting and I could feel the energy you were crystallizing something, it was coming to an awakening realization, right? And so I was gently guiding that. What you did is like, I asked one question and you looked up into the left and you took this really deep diaphragmatic breath and I said, "But where did that go?" And you stopped and I can see your kind of little eyes moving back and forth and going, "That's it, where did that go?" And then when you identified where it went, you said, "That was a really deep belly breath." And I said, "How does that feel?" And then you came up with an emotion. So again, we are like the radio. We are timeless and boundless and this thing, we come back to the 75 trillion cells within each one of those cells. There's a trillion atoms within that, 99.99% of that is space. And so when you feel something energetically, it's niagraphals. When you try and think your way through it, it's the eye dropper. And so when we attach something physiologically, then what you do is you have a 75 trillion cell awakening. And then when you go, "I just have to catch myself, take that deep diaphragmatic breath and it brings back that emotion of connection and safety." And then your ability to then real, "I come out of the one gig and you come somatically into your body." And this is the same principle. I mean, that's in the somatic based stuff. But in the commercial lens, it's the same principle. We're really trying to create a connection within yourself. If you've got that deep connection and understanding, you can remain present in that Buddhist principle, you can, like with the phone, create pretty much anything. But if you come from the back side of the consciousness card where you are consistent reacting, either from my past story or future bombing myself, and what most people do, like because if you only do that, you're in the back seat, you're not controlling anything. And so this is the frame that if you turn up for an interview, then you're going to create something out of a place of lack. If you turn up for a conversation, you have the device. It is you. You are connected. What you can create is boundless. Boundless, man. You know that one song that you want to share with your beautiful wife or your daughter or one of your kids or your mates. I love this song. I remember when you give them and you're excited. And then you share the song. And that's the conversation. You turn up in an interview. You've got a device you're looking at and just going, "Wow. So that's a very expensive paperweight. I have no idea even how to turn that thing on. And that's how people exist. And they go, that's the commercial side. And the other thing is there's someone sitting on the other side of that table who's probably in exactly the same situation as you. And actually probably has just as much need because in that change, Mary who's sitting there, she's terrified. She's never done this before. - She can't make the wrong decision. But I also have no idea what that decision looks or feels like. I'm just terrified. I'm overwhelmed. And she's interviewing you. - Yeah. - So she's terrified. So I'm sitting there going, oh my God, I'm terrified as well. And then what comes out of the conversation? It's not a conversation. But as Simon turns up and he's really authentic and he's vulnerable and goes, well, I'm really excited about that. I'd love to be a part. I'd really like to have another conversation. Mary's sitting there going, oh my good Lord. Simon might be my savior. I think I'm my lovely Simon because you might be the answer to my fees. - Yeah. And we've all got them. - And then we all have them. - I'd see you. - Yeah. Out of, we've talked about co-creation. We've talked about, obviously we've talked, we are concentrating very much on the one pillar here of the, of the commercial pillar here of the form. We'll go into, we'll go into the other three, you know, subsequent. - Yeah. - Subsequent. - What would you say to anybody we're coming into that time of the year, you know, December, our family get together, hanging out with people that you really, you're only gonna see once a year. You don't really want to hang out with you, you've got a new year coming up. There's a lot of change out there in corporate. There's a lot of downsizing going on. There's change. What would be your advice to anybody who's looking at, who's listening to this, who might be suddenly inspired a little bit further to become a little bit braver? What would be, I'm not gonna even put a number, you know, top three, I'll just hand it back to you. What would be your suggestions and. - Subsequent, spend some time, do eat this process, right? So firstly, how did you get here? Secondly, what constitutes your ideal? And because what you're really looking for is that concept of ikigai. And so that is a very simple Japanese construct and it's about finding your purpose. What do you love? What are you good at? Where can you create value within your community and put a financial model around that that is enough for you? For very simple key things. And within that, what you have to look in, it's not an outside construct, it's an inside construct. So let go of all the things that you've been told and where you are and the job that you're in now, and really deeply start to explore that ikigai as a construct. And then. - You go, I-K-I-G-A-I. - Yeah, yeah. - And then, so from there, then you wanna do is strengths, weaknesses, background, development areas, all of those sorts of things, the things that are pushing you from an organization, but within your values, when you're asking about those three things. So you wanna understand, what is this environment that those, that ikigai construct thrives? I want authenticity. I want non-political. I want some autonomy to be able to implement this change. Do I have funding? You know, where's the change for teeth, threshold in this organization? Do I get empowered? You know, do I have a good relationship with my peers? Is everybody on the same page? Is everybody's incentive programs on the same page? 'Cause we're instigating change. You know, we all wanna be on driving in the same direction, right? So it's a cumulative authentic communication and vulnerability open communicative. These are all values. And I can't tell you how many institutions I worked with over the years, and someone had bought them out or they'd get a new marketing department, they'd get a new series of values. And you just go, those values that you had on the wall that you just got pulled down and put up the nuance, they're fundamentally different. The last lot of values. There they are. And I'm just going, DNA of a company. You feel the DNA. - It's the DNA. - It's the DNA. - Yeah. And it's like the zero to seven. It's like the lenses you look through. Same with organizations. People have been there. There's DNA in the brand, but in the people. And if I look at, I could tell, I used to work with companies from North America, London, the Middle East, Asia, Denmark, Israel. And you could tell the DNA where they were head office. Right? The sorts of things they prioritized. And when you go and change your logo and change your values, people don't change values quickly. And they're all there as a group and a collective. So you are the sum of the five people you spend the most time with. And you're going to spend a lot of time with people at work. And then you go and change the value statement on the mission statement on the front wall, or on your email. And you're going, yeah, we're going to drive this through. And you're going, this is a third value, fundamental value change. - Look at the agency that you did well out there. - Yeah, with those values for you. - That's fantastic. But how is that rippling through your organization? Because change fatigue for some people. Like Dave, that might be where you actually keep the tea bags in the lunch room. That's change fatigue. - Yeah. - And so then you're changing the values or we're opening new markets or we're actually, we're going from a hardware company to a consulting or a software company. And that is in their DNA. - And they have something to change. - So just coming back to your three things, right? Go through this process. - In some time looking inwardly to understand what I used to tell you is your differentiated value proposition. So you got to understand who you are, why you turn up, what your values are. But then on the back end of that, you've got to think about, okay, well, this is my experience. This is where I've operated. This is the vertical over there and this is my level. And now I'm not trying to sell it, but I can certainly talk to it. And I can ask some great questions around that. - I think it's great. - Authentically, because a great question gives me a deep insight on the other side of your level of knowledge and understanding. And again, if I ask that question and you don't know the answer and then I feel you doubling down and fudging the edges of it, and not being authentically vulnerable. - Well, that's a great question. I actually don't have the answer to that. Then all of a sudden, I'm getting a great read on you because if you're supposed to be my manager and you're not owning the fact you don't know and I do, I'm getting a vibe from that. I'm just going, wow, that's authentic vulnerability. You're not walking that tall. And that's a profoundly important thing for me. And so now maybe I ask another direct question about that. And if you doubled down, I know I'm done. - Yeah. - So again, understanding who you are, why you turn up, what your differentiated value proposition is, and then just be brave. And because if you don't start taking that step and it's just one step, it's just, and time thinking about it. Talk to the people that really care about you, they know like how do you see what is it? I'm really struggling coming up with these sort of identity based statements for myself. Ask someone and spend, and again, as you say, you don't want, it doesn't have to be a daunting decision where you're saying, right, we're going to turn this oil tanker or this cruise liner around in a week. It might be saying, right, I'm going to carve out 15 minutes on a Saturday, Avo, Sunday morning, or whatever the time is. Just to start writing down your qualities, because I think what happens is a lot of people actually get overwhelmed. As we've said, they forget who they are, once you take away those, those, they're quite often, it's just never new. - Yeah. - They never knew who they were. But building on, you know, writing down, and I did this with somebody that I met recently, who came to me for a little bit of mentoring help. And he was sort of at an inflection point, let's say, and I just said, look, what's your best quality? And he said, oh, it's this, I said, what's your next best quality? It's this. And I said, do you reckon you could get to fit, write those two down, do you reckon you could get to 50? And they could come back to me and let me know. And just that small conversation itself was a game changer for him. That's all of a sudden. - Because it's a frame. - Yeah, but it's a step. - Yeah. - It's seen most importantly, where's he looking? - Inside. - Yeah, inside. - He has to think about who I am. What am I good at? And it's the equal, I think. What am I good at? And what do I love? You know, he got like, well, you went to uni. Why don't you go to uni? I was good at those subjects. Did you like doing accounting legal? No, I hated it. If it was good at it, you know, I was talking to somebody who was talking about a family member and there was a young person within that family that she was super successful. She'd gone to one of the big private schools in Sydney. She'd gone on this journey. She was in New York. She was earning lots of money. She was in investment banking and on paper, and she should be just absolutely stoked knocking out of the park. - Yeah. - Like 20s. And she just had a breakdown. And you know what she said to her parents was, you know, like, I'm so miserable. And she goes, you know what? All I ever wanted to be was a florist. - Was a florist. - All she ever wanted to do was be a florist. And the thing is that there's this machine that tells people, you know, you're great, you're great analytically, you're great mathematically, you're female, you should be, you can, and they get on this journey where, you know, the masculine construct, not divine feminine, not divine masculine, that masculine construct of an outcome, money, money, the bill and end all. - Yeah. - And here she is in her late 20s, literally having a breakdown. - Yeah. - Because all she ever wanted to be and she could never say it out loud because the school, the family. - Think what will people say? - Yeah, I actually just want to be a florist. And now here she is in New York. You know, on paper, she is one of the biggest big investment banks. She's knocking out of the park. Everybody's going, wow, she's amazing. She's so great and she's having a breakdown. Because all she wanted to be was a florist. She's okay. - She's, but this is the journey. - Yeah. - Don't wait. - Yeah. - Do it today and be brave. - To loud. - It's 58, man, I'm 58. I'm literally, I'm going, wow, like, yeah, I have little reminders around me. It's just not to say, hey, get on with it. But just little visual cues around. Say, hey, you know, time's ticking. We haven't got forever to sit in a situation that we're not happy with or we're not finding our authentic. Either being our authentic self, but also living our authentic life as well. So you bounce out of bed in the morning and you're happy to get on with the day. - Because the thing is, Matt, if you don't even know what authentic is, and you don't know what that look, life looks and feels like because everybody is told you like that young lady that you should be doing your braid-ach should or must. And that's a narrative. And then you're just going on, my parents said, and then I got this job and I got a promotion, another promotion, then I'm off to New York. And this is a thing. I can't tell you how many thousands of people buddy that I've sat with over the decades. How did you get here and the look on their face as we go on this journey? And it's not a linear thing. It takes as long as it takes. - Yeah, really? - Everybody's journey is different. That's easier for some than it is for others, because some people have kind of ended up with something that they're actually, wow, it's not too far away. I actually do quite enjoy it. It does, I've got a beautiful balance. I've got a beautiful partner. I've got beautiful kids. I love where I live. And I really love my job. I'm super excited. Equally, and I would say the majority of people, they would sit there and just go, wow, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, and that look of fear and despair. You can see it. I know, I commute in from the beaches most days into the city. And you can see the people that are happy to be heading, heading into another day of work. I think it's like 50% of people are deeply dissatisfied if not hate their, their job. I can't imagine what that must be like to live that, live that life. - Man, I, I, you know, I, in this statement, I don't want to limit it just to the work component, but I can't tell you, there are very, very, very few people that I meet, whether it be in a commercial environment, whether it be in one of the, you know, the guru-based environments. I know a lot of those retreats and breath and meditation and plant medicine and all those different modalities. - Yeah. - Made I see as many lost gurus in invertebrate commas that, you know, use that platform to escape. - Right. - And again, it's that I do in the commercial world. - Yeah. - I see very few people authentically living a vulnerable, open, intentional existence across all modalities. So it's not just the 50% buddy and it's not just work. It's your whole life. You know, your partner, your kids, the moments that you create, what is important for you? Like if you literally get to your deathbed and you look back, what are you going to be so grateful for? I mean, I, and if you're not doing that, I have started having those little conversations and it doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be tectonic. It's just one breath, one step. And that's the principle, one breath, one step. Just have a think about it. It doesn't have to be life-threatening because that's what happens with your ego. - Yeah. - If you start changing this, there's a whole story that takes off. Who am I? Where would I go? Oh my goodness. And the school fees. - Yeah. - My husband and my wife, my parents, my friends, what would everybody say? - What would everybody think? - Or even worse, they don't say, but what would they be thinking? - That's it. - Yeah. - And so, and that's the fee. It's a fee really unknown. But I promise you, man, if you sit on your deathbed and you look back, you know, you know, the bill that you pay now versus the bill at that time, you're going to pay for regret. - Yeah. - Let me tell you, they are not the same. And I think the one that's beautifully said, the one thing that, you know, they did that study, or there's been a few that have come out, I think recently doing a bit of the circuit on social media or etc. But there was, you know, people have gone and spoken with the 90-year-old. - Yeah, that's it. - Oh, 100%. - And said, you know, and the number one regret was, think, worrying too much about what other people thought. - I prefer thinking. - Yeah, that's right. - The people you really get. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's the quality time. - Quality time with people you love. - Yeah. - 100%. - Because you know, I mean, it's a, it's kind of quite a horrendous statistic where you think about it. You, by the time your kids are 12, you will spend 75%, 75% of the time that you will ever spend with your children by the time they're 12. By the time they're 18, it's something like 90. - Mm. - Yeah. - And you just go, oh, wow. 90% of the time that I'm ever going to spend with my child by the time they're 18 is gone. - Mm. - And you sit there and begrudge, you know, athletics carnival, the teachers meeting, or the, you know, when they come and talk to you and you're busy. - Yes. Just a second. - Yeah. - Yeah, just a second. - Dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad, see? - Yeah. - I'm just on the phone. - Just a minute. - Let me just find out. - I'm just having a conversation. - That's it. - 100%. - No. - But if you look back, mate, I promise you having, you know, a son myself, and mate, he used to look at me like, I was the world. It's like I was like a walking version of incarnation of Jesus. And, mate, he used to, if we were sitting down somewhere, he was always sitting on my lap, all the way until he got to 12. And mate, it was a ritual for us. We'd jump on the couch, you know, we'd eat fruit salad and we'd watch a movie or a cartoon. And that was our ritual just before we got it bad. And it always lined up for me. I'd lined down the couch and lined up in the end. I mean, then one day, one day, man, he went and sat in the couch. And that was the last day he ever sat on top of me. That was the last day I ever got one of those cuddles. It's the last time he ever looked at me like that. And it was the last time he called me Daddder. - Yeah. - The last time. So just remember, there's always a last time. Thanks, mate. Always. - Thanks, mate. - So, man, for me, the wrap-up, you know, if I'm kind of looking at that commercial lens, firstly, it's like the analogy to do the blue dot of dye in the bath. It doesn't stay in the corner. This is about all of you. And this is about, you know, how you start the process. And most people find the easiest place in the safest way. It says, starting the commercial lane. - Yeah. - So for me, this very simple structure of the one that we just outlined before, and it's literally how did you get here, what's your ideal, think of the icky guy, run through those three words and phrases, strengths, development areas, push pull factors, and it's a one-page of it. It's literally, you can put all of that on one page, just start that process because all of those things, you have to start thinking about yourself. And that creates a differentiated value proposition. And then the thing from there, never, ever, ever go for an interview. It's always a conversation. Just in that mindset, just that one thing, if I can give you the one thing, it's the frame and then it's never go. It's a friendly interview. It's always just a conversation. And what you co-create there is going to be boundless. It's going to be the quantum. It's going to be the radio. You get what you focus on, right? That heaps, heaps of law. How do that, again, another great conversation, everybody listening. I hope you've enjoyed this deep dive with Maddie Green. Maddie Matthew Green on LinkedIn. Maddie Green to his friends. Where can people get in touch with you? Maddie to continue the conversation. I know that you've got a pretty full book these days. But man, I'm always up for a conversation. So, peeing me on LinkedIn, just pick up the phone. I'm pretty sure my phone number's on LinkedIn. I put it on there. So if you want to call. Just, and you want to have a conversation about where you're up to and what's going on. And maybe want to next step might feel like. And I've done this thousands and thousands of times. And I love it. Yeah. And man, this is a really, really, I mean, there's nothing quite like helping somebody connect the dots and turn on the light in a dark room that they've been fumbling around in for the entirety of their existence. And you go, he's a light switch and they turn on a light. And just like the look on there, it's like, what? This is crazy. I can vouch for that. For sure. For sure. Maddie Green, that's green with an e, grwne. You can find Maddie on LinkedIn, as he said. Maddie's business is San Ivan Wellness, that's S-A-N-D-E-M-A-N. Wellness. We will be back again with another session where we're going to be diving down into the second part of the four. So, we're going to be doing this, and we're going to be doing this. We're going to be doing this, and we're going to be doing this. did this in medical, the psychology. Awesome. Thanks coming in Maddie's been great to have you on. And thanks listeners, my name's Simon Gold. You've been listening to the before we get started podcast. And we'll see you on the next one. Cheers. Take your marry. [Music]