Materialists: Love or Money? (with Tourmaline) | 58

So let me tell you something about being loyal. Just as I declared myself a lifelong New York Knicks fan, the Oklahoma City Thunder, which I guess legally by birth I should be a fan of, won the NBA championship. Did you watch or did you find out? No, I didn't watch, but I watched the score. I was like keeping, I was watching Love Island, but I was like keeping up with the score on my phone. Okay. Bisexual. But let me tell you, I'm a Leo. I'm loyal. I said, oh, wish it meant something to me. It doesn't. Really? Damn, you don't ride for your city like that. No, I don't. I don't switch up. I do. Yeah. Well, verse. But let me tell you something. I'll be your shotgun rider till the day I die. I'll be your shotgun. No, I'll be your backseat baby. You moving to Paris? Driving you crazy. I might be. I might move to Paris actually. Because who has been asking for Two Most Wanted with Miley Cyrus live from the very beginning? From when I pressed play on the album. And who gets it? And how many times did I see Beyonce live? Three. I saw Beyonce out of house and home. You paid American USD to see it. Well, no. Well, yeah, because we went together, but then I paid for my New York City ticket. Oh, okay. I was going to be like, oh, she got money. Let's get her. In the rain. And guess what I got? The same little three, three little lines of Two Most Wanted as she crossed the stadium. Yeah. Yep. And what did Paris get? Miley Cyrus live. I said, it couldn't be at the Grammys when everyone could witness it. Now I have to see it on grainy videos. It's not right. It's not right. I just don't know what Paris did to deserve anything. Girl, Paris is where blue was conceived. That's what Paris did to deserve it. They provided a place to fuck. And she said, we owe this city everything. Jay, come on out. That's crazy. No, like Paris really got, although Paris night, Jay-Z came out. I did not like Beyonce's wig that night. Oh, wait. They got the good wig. Yeah. They got the good with the other nights, but the bad wig on the Jay-Z night. I thought it was all in one night. And I was like, that's so selfish. No, I think it was either two or three nights, but I think it was three. Why was Miley in Paris? Girl, I don't know. I just, I thought that we would have her in LA. Same. I thought that the LA privilege would finally work for me. Work in your favor. Listen, but then I, at the end, like at the end of the day, I get it. I would not want to be in raggedy America where they're starting wars. Yeah. Miley said, let's take this. Let's take this elsewhere. She's like, we can't have this here. I've never seen her perform and I've always wanted to perform. Oh, you've never seen Miley perform? No. Neither have I. But she doesn't like touring. That's like been her, like, yeah, it's like very like, you know. Which is why this felt so privileged. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But listen, one thing about Tumas wanted was a song about friendship. According to Miley's Instagram caption, she said, I'm so happy to sing my song about friendship. Okay. With Beyonce. So not only the word choice of friendship is so funny in the gayest song ever. Well, define friendship. Well, that's what I was going to say. Miley Cyrus is historically known for trying to get her little lick in with anyone that she's doing a duet with. The one with Ariana Grande, the backyard session. Now that started some stuff. You have had a coffee today. I said, let me try to get a word in. I don't know. Shit. It's a solo podcast now, I guess. Damn. If you are selling a coffee and you see this woman, lock the door. She's activated. No, it was actually extra too, because when I went to get a coffee, the baristas were arguing about who's the greatest vocalist of all time. And he said, well, funny thing. I said, actually Whitney Houston. Oh my God. It's so great that I'm in this conversation now. It's Whitney Houston. Did you actually get involved? I did. Did you win? Well, no. Yes. I had some support in the room. People stand up and they applaud. They were like, yeah, actually, yes, Whitney. And then someone said Aretha. I said, okay, totally valid. I can hear that. And then someone, oh, someone said, I don't want to say who it was, but I was like, oh, not her. Let me tell you that. In a coffee shop? Oh, you knew the people there? You're familiar? No. So you were beefing people already? You came in, got a coffee, have beef with someone? Well, I was like, oh, not her, but okay. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Keep going. I'm just so happy that we got two most wanted live. We did and delivered. Something so special about the way that Miley Cyrus bit her lip, looked at Beyonce. Beyonce looked like, looked away and said, no, I don't know this little, lesbian ain't biting her lip and me. Not this way. What do you think of Miley's boyfriend? The lesbian? I'm glad that you said that. Miley's going to find her way back to bisexuality no matter what. Find your way back. Also a Beyonce song. Yep. It's short circuiting over here. I know. I'm getting nervous. Really stressed out. My back hurts. Okay. Okay. From carrying the podcast. Yeah. No, you're doing it right now. I'm just along for the ride. It's a bumpy ride, but I'm in the car with you. Say your thing. Two most wanted, you and I both. Oh my God. I don't have a thing. I thought you had a music thing. Oh, girl. See, I forgot because it's all wrapped up in you. This morning. Happy pride wrapped up in me. Okay. You really got to tone it down a little bit. I'm getting tired. Keep that in too. Please. Okay. Well, this morning I started piano lesson. The artist's way. I'm really good at piano. I forgot that. He was like really impressed. All right. Alicia Keys. Yeah. Well, quite literally. Where do you think I got it from my mother? No, literally Peyton Keys. Yeah. I'm so back. So anyway, who knows? Next thing I could be on tour with Beyonce and Miley. Yeah. Except actually next week, you know where you're going to be? In Los Angeles. On stage at Eats Con. We will be at Infatuation Eats Con doing a little chat. Our LA privilege kicks back in. Again, yours, not mine. But we hope to see you there. 28. Yes. 1.30? Is our time? Girl, you know time zones confuse me. I don't know. I don't know what time. We'll leave a comment. Someone check there. What are we talking about this week? Oh, my goodness. Oh, thank God. This week, we're talking about the new A24 movie, Materialists. We're doing a little Love Island catch up. And thank God, because I have to defend Ace's honor. And we're joined by Tourmaline to talk about Marsha by Tourmaline, her new book. So let me say this. Are you looking for a home for your worst opinions? Are you a hater first, but a lover of pop culture second? Consider this a glorified group chat. We're not calling you out. No, no, no. We're calling you in. It's a safe space. To talk shit. Of course. From Wondery, I'm Peyton Dix. And I'm Hunter Harris. And this is Let Me Say This. I've been saying too much. You've been saying a lot. Let me say that, actually. Quiet as it's kept. Okay. I've been dying to talk about Materialists, because I have many thoughts. Any good? I have two good thoughts. Really? You found two. Oh, Lord. She's starting. She's starting. I'm sorry. Yeah, where's my coffee? Okay. Quickly, Materialists was written and directed by Past Lives director, Celine Song. And it follows Lucy, played by Dakota Johnson, a New York City matchmaker who has to choose between, guess what, a rich man and a poor man. Rich man is Pedro Pascal, poor man is Chris Evans, with veneers that look too expensive for him. I'm like, bro, I thought you were broke. How do you have those veneers and that hairline? Do we start there? Do we start at the poverty line? And he has roommates and veneers that expensive. I was like, wait, the math is not adding up. Hunter, we need to say the true thing. Chris Evans' character was too poor. He was too poor? He was too poor. He was too poor. Hear me out. No, don't come for me. They think just because I'm in L.A. Let me actually get a fork in a knife because I want to eat the rich. Hold on. Excuse me. Excuse me. My tummy's talking. I'm hungry. Okay. There was no need for this near 40-year-old man, the way they do numbers here, let's call him 40, had two roommates in Bushwick at best. It was giving. It was not giving Bushwick. Ain't never went to a commercial audition in his life. He wants to be an actor. Get real. Don't piss me off. I was like, sorry. How are you too good for commercials? Allergic to making money. Allergic to a check. No, no, no, no, no. I don't, I just, I, there's, there's that, I need to call, stop calling it the poverty line. I feel like I need to work, I need to work around that. But that was crazy to me. But then we need to talk about Dakota Johnson's salary in this. 80K before taxes. Okay. Everyone is so obsessed. Obsessed. Her lip combo, her lip combo alone, $50. I saw Mac everywhere. Everyone is obsessed with her making 80K. And listen, guess what? Oh, excuse me. It's a movie. It's not real. It's real to me. It's fake. It's real to me. Guess what? There's an actor and there's a director and there's a little mark on the floor, a little X on the floor. Uh-uh. Uh-uh. And there's someone with lights and someone with a microphone. No, no. And they say roll camera action. It's a movie. In these trying times, you're going to put Dakota Johnson, who doesn't even know what, 80K is a waking up for her. You're going to put her in this movie and you're going to deliberately put that line in. 80K before taxes, you're deliberately going to put that in. You know you're just, just shaking the table for that. You're just pissing people off. That wasn't the really like crazy part. The really overt part to me, the really overt part was making Dakota Johnson scripting for her to say that she's not a good actress. Oh, yeah. Multiple times. That was nasty. I was like, no, that's not nice. Yeah. And I love Dakota Johnson. Of course. And I will ride for my sister and I miss her tooth gap and I don't think that she should have been saying I'm not a good actress, especially in a movie where it's not her best performance. No, no. That's a bigger splash. I think. Or that one Maggie Gyllenhaal movie. A bigger splash. Great movie that a hunter wreck never misses, except for when you made me watch this. Because I think that in general, the thing that I noticed that was really pulling me out of it was these crazy juxtapositions between like Pedro Pascal's wealth and Evan. Chris Evans. Chris Evans. Evan. See. that's how pissed I am and his poverty and then the distinction between like her character and all the women that she works with at adore the agency that match makes for people it just felt all too obvious all too on the nose it didn't need to be that dramatized for us to understand the wealth gap or you know the bridge and personalities between these sorority type girls that all move together and then her as this lone wolf that like carves her own path yeah yeah I mean I it did kind of really draw um continue to draw your attention back to like her being a cynic and her like not wanting to be like all the other women are like in the office or so excited about engagements and so excited about you know falling in love and making like building connections for other people and she's like well I don't really care and and I'm like it's almost it's not like cool girl but it's like a a version of that you know yeah that kind of took me out of it um but I think the biggest thing is that for a movie is sensibly about people who are thinking about like wealth and money and class um and also just like not like shopping necessarily but like having things that other people can't afford and like the value in that there were shockingly few um markers of that in the movie shockingly few markers of like other ways to show that you're valuable other than just like being with a tall man um and so the good thing I can say about it is that I did feel like in Pedro Pascal's apartment which did look like a one hotel lobby and I was like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I'm like oh my god I was really I was like the sheets the silk sheets that he had I was like okay now those are sexy yeah that is like a uh that telegraphs something about his character that nothing else in the movie really is like like nothing else works on that level yeah it's like oh this is a man who likes nice things and wants the nicest of everything yeah and that kind of made sense for everything else in the movie I was like I don't really buy that these are people who live in neighborhoods who have friends who have a coffee order none of them have friends who go to like a real restaurant you know and that it all kind of felt like a lot of ideas and conversation that all really was reduced to one idea which is that oh you want you think you want to like be valuable but actually you just want to fall in love which is not that's like a yeah that's like a um five paragraph essay you said and I wrote in college turned it in got an a-minus girl I wrote that in Jane Meslinga's middle school class you didn't write that on Emerson College someone wrote that at Emerson College and it turned into material okay no we're so no I'm I'm this this movie kind of irritated me in every possible way I think something that also really we got to talk about it the the height surgery reveal no okay that that played that worked for me that worked for me the entire way because because I felt like that was the first time that these characters had ever had excuse me the second time they had a real conversation yeah it's like finally we're getting to the meat of something here where it's like we are not in love and this is not working and actually we you know despite being like we're so adult we're so modern we just want to like feel something deeply and it's like finally two characters admitting that and I only wish that she had said like this is the first real conversation we've ever had about how we feel about each other that's not about like you're too good for me or I think you you could be doing better yeah which those conversations oh my god let's get a grip let's get one singular grip I can't take the thing the materialist did over and over again was like get up girl why are you talking I know that you're putting relationships in numbers but having to be like I'm not good enough for you like this is what I offer in both relationships doesn't work yeah I'm sorry straight people have many many problems well yes well yes well yeah I was like if it taught me anything if the materials taught me anything I was like straight people are not okay and all they have is Dakota Johnson and Chris Evans to and not one of them just Dakota Johnson and Chris Evans but I think Pedro Pascal was the strongest piece of this movie to me because he was someone well of course but he's someone who was like first of all whenever he sit sat next to her at that wedding yeah and he moved the card I said oh I do love a man I love a gay man too I was looking at that every time they would make out I'd be like what's a um denial is a river in Egypt your husband is gay they had no physical chemistry not well but I think that that worked that was a character yes that was like a character play because yeah of course they're like kind of like square whole round peg because it's not present for them like the attraction really isn't there um but I did feel that I don't know I just kind of didn't buy that Dakota Johnson wants to be in love badly like decides like okay I do need I want to be with someone who I love I don't just want like a rich man with like nothing going on upstairs um and then here comes Chris Evans but it's like I never came around to the fact that it's like but he also has nothing going on he hasn't he hasn't earned this at all what so what he says he's like I don't know I don't know okay I'm gonna guess what go out for an Arby's commercial and I'm gonna take on more catering shifts I was like that's not that's also not what she had like as a character said her objective was she wants to be in love and here comes Chris Evans and he's like when I see you I see our children I was like girl but also the why there was no that nothing was set up to me enough to like believe in any of their relationship no that's what I mean that's what I mean because 10 years later and you're still doing the same shit and she's like actually let's give this a go no that that's what it didn't ever connect like why she and Pedro like did not work out made complete sense to me like that it was like a closed circle but it's like all of a sudden Chris Evans is just there yeah and listen there are more straight men in New York than that I was gonna ask do you have if you had to choose between Chris and Pedro who would you pick have we not been friends for 15 years damn near who would you pick who do you think I'm picking don't piss me off okay okay I think you would pick Chris Evans because no no I'm not done I'm not done I'm not done I think you pick Chris Evans because at the end of the day real real hunter core real in the gut you love you a Boston man no yeah you do get yeah you do know the one that was in prison you just don't even talk about that you truly just pissed me the fuck off you really did how dare you why would I not pick Pedro Pascal no why would I not pick a man who excuse me has a nice kitchen who can afford good delivery I just like to get I just like to get under activated as if she wasn't already activated from the coffee I come on this show every week to piss hunter off I say how can I ruffle some feathers what about me I don't want to have a child until I can fight private who's who's gonna give me that life that's the audience I don't know nobody in this room no you deserve you deserve you deserve you deserve a beautiful gay husband who will love you tall or short I'm who do you deserve in this movie I don't even none of them you deserve you deserve to go to jail you deserve to go to jail you deserve to go to jail you deserve to go to jail you deserve to go to jail you deserve to go to jail you're running through West Village trench coat button at the top ballerina flats a big forehead with the hat yes that's what you deserve I think that coat was the row though so I actually would take it oh my god no yeah I wouldn't pick any of them but that's my whole that's my whole being gay thing it is kind of a strange like um I don't know I don't know what to call it that I did not really enjoy or appreciate this movie but I did appreciate an interview that Celine Song did with the New York Times where she was talking about the romantic comedy not that I think materials as a romantic comedy no um but I want to read you this quote because I want to know what you think of it she was speaking to Kyle Buchanan in the times she said when we see trailers for a movie like this people just start calling it a chick flick there's a very easy way that you can dismiss it I'm really interested in directly addressing the way that we completely dismiss matters of the heart not a single one of us can actually escape this problem which is love why is that it's the one thing that we're considering as not important in movies and see they could have read that and I've been like period the movie could have been that quote and I would have loved it exactly no but I I it's just such a funny like um almost like I believe so much in this vision and I don't think that materialist really um executed on this premise is this doing well at the box office um yeah relatively yeah oh okay I thought it was flopping after seeing it I was like there's no way this could be doing well but I sorry Jesus Christ sorry I loved past lives you you were not a past life lover no okay it was fine okay I loved that film and I was hoping to feel at least a version of what I felt watching that movie and the amount of like detail in yearning and backstory and like creating a moment that exists within a glare I was like oh that is like something I want to feel here and I felt devoid of any emotion and you know me I'm filled with emotion yeah button to the top with emotion yeah and I guess like hearing this quote is so lovely but I I didn't feel a single piece of that in the movie yeah it does the whole movie kind of feels like shockingly impersonal yeah to me in a way that you know I wasn't the biggest fan of past lives but I do think past lives was ultimately accessing like more interesting ideas about like I mean identity and culture of course but also about like how to really know someone and how much like you can become different versions of yourself in different relationships yeah um and I didn't get any of that from this it's like Dakota Johnson was the same in both relationships and both men never really felt like they saw her I mean it's like what shows Chris Evans because he's like looking at her face being what are you thinking right now girl nothing I think I think I had to pay some bills that's what I'm thinking about spend 10 minutes with the lesbian she's gonna look at you and say what are you thinking right now spend 10 minutes with me spend five minutes with me I got Hunter I never get that yeah I never she's like what I know I never get that treatment I'm told to be quiet Tiffany that's what I get told speaking of the the difference in her two films I also think there was a lot of interesting shifts in visual language in this she played with a ton of physical comedy in a way that I maybe didn't expect definitely didn't need but felt almost campy again in comparison to past lives but like the moment when she is at his apartment for the first time and she's like pulled almost like a cartoonish way like into his bedroom or even the way that all the little sorority girls that work at a door move almost like little penguins and shuffle it's funny to call like Dasha a sorority girl working at a door but okay well and I just I don't know I thought that that was an interesting choice and I'm curious these films feel so so different to me and I'm curious what she really thinks about both of them or which she finds herself more drawn to create interesting yeah I did something that worked for me in the very beginning of the movie that kind of made me turn on it halfway through is that it really feels like it's borrowing or kind of mimicking like the visual language of like how to lose a guy in 10 days or two weeks or even my best friend's wedding where or even Legally Aligned where it's like you have to kind of get readies with me get ready with me's like all that like walking through the city devil wears Prada kind of stuff it all felt like it was um really gesturing toward that visually and yet it's like both material and an actress who is not so comfortable in that mode you know which made it feel like I'm watching almost um like a version of that but without any like the big romantic swings of those movies because even at the end it's like the Chris Evans monologue where he's like you know that should be on paper like a pick me choose me love me Grey's Anatomy like big Shonda Rhimes big emotionality big swing and yet it all just kind of felt like like really anvil dropping it's like nothing's really I I don't I don't know what I'm supposed to be feeling right now and the the amount of monologues in this damn movie oh my god this Dakota Johnson always has something to say and talk about being long-winded she got it from me um wait something two things two quick things about this movie the new the minute I knew I was out which yes this is in the very beginning of the movie was when we cut to the cavemen immediately out I don't want to escape but that's literally minute one girl that's literally minute one of the movie yeah and I was out and I stood on business for once and I saw the dirt under their fingernails and I actually thought oh Hunter would hate this I was like I could feel her skin crawling given with what they had during the time what what are they gonna do take a take a sharp rock and give themselves a little manicure maybe one of the hardest pills for me to swallow she didn't have a passport Dakota Johnson didn't have a passport and it's always a who does not have TSA preach like he's talking about she doesn't have a passport oh now you do and now you do and how long has it taken you actually it only took two days by the way to get it with 30 years in two days yeah totally no sorry I wasn't two years old with TSA preach the thing that I got hung up on continuously is that both um the client played by Zoe Winters and Dakota Johnson both had you both have apartments on the first floor the first apartment in the building you both have that no girl it's a wrap for me but shout out to my girl Celine this is like when you called Sophia Richie boring three times in a row and said oh but I but I don't want to offend her but I love past lives she's an icon she's a legend and she is the moment now come on now with us today we have Tourmaline who is an American artist filmmaker activist editor and writer and friend of the pod welcome Tourmaline oh my goodness thank you so much for having me I'm so honored thank you for being here um I have a very important question for you do you consider yourself a lover or a hater uh you know I reveled in the hate for most of my life but now I'm in the loving moment lover era oh my god is that a recent change when would you say that happened I think it happened in 2020 it was like the lockdown I was just like listening to a lot of laraji and other kind of like meditative music and it felt like it was so freeing to let go of everything that was holding me down and also I really needed to be in my hating era in order to get to where I am today and say that we need a hater era to get to the lover era always and I'm still I'll get there one day Hunter's still deep in that hater era but she's on her way out she's seeing the light and there's no better or worse just to say you know like it's not it's there's no hierarchy of emotions I think I couldn't have been reveling in joy without having gone through rage and revenge for for so long I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know are you a lover or hater of pride in New York City you know I'm a lover I have to say like I don't think I ever was a hater I came up you know through organizing and just seeing a bunch of people who you know like hanging out on the pier who this was like this is you know 2007-2006 this is the one day you know folks are able to like turn up the volume on their lives and be out and be with each other that was a huge change for me I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know like those were my first prides and so forever I'm just I'm like all about it are you a lover or a hater of rainbows okay it has gone like first lover and in 1993 I got my first rainbow from like my gay uncle David Farwell and I was like oh this is amazing and then I was like this is so corny and then in that moment of like um 50607 everyone just being like from the door on the pier Christopher Street Piers you know it's like everyone with the rainbow like I was like oh this is so beautiful and then I was like oh this is so corny again and now I'm kind of like I don't know I I love I love flowers I love adornment so um do you with that with your technicolor you know I always say the people who love rainbows are always straight you should see my mother's closet oh my god she's leading a pride parade you would think because of the amount of rainbows she's always like I'm no gay person and it's my daughter put it right here but okay last lover hater question are you a lover or hater of being queer oh yes I'm a lover honestly um you know there's these moments where you're like oh is this even my community anymore anymore it's like gotten so whatever but I'm ultimately I'm ultimately a lover yeah at the end of the day it's like you couldn't pay me top dollar to be straight and I and I tried I gave it the good old some of us still are yeah well well um oh yes yes I'm straight okay I'm so sorry I don't know please I first of all this is my best friend so I get it daily like she's seen this she's like never I don't want to be gay she's like you couldn't pay me top dollar to be gay I've seen the struggle I've witnessed it firsthand but thank you for asking hunter if she is gay because most people kind of just know there's a there's a knowing with you respectfully most people are like she wore an apple watch in 2021 so yep she's straight yeah that's apple watches are either so gay or so straight I don't know yeah they're real that binary is so gay or so straight nothing in between nothing in between we obviously want to take some time to talk about your new book Marsha which is about the life of Marsha P. Johnson the civil rights activist through the first brick at stonewall um so we want to take some time to ask you what even drew you to this project what made you want to write this book so this book has honestly been a 20-year culmination of researching of being close to the people who knew and loved Marsha P. Johnson um I moved to New York as a teen and then very quickly found a community in the West Village on Christopher Street Pier who were shaped by Marsha and as an organizer working around health care and welfare and housing uh in the early 2000s and up until like 2014 when I went to to make film and art Marsha's legacy was just so incredible so tangible and I needed to know more I needed to know who this beautiful adorned beautifully adorned person was who was also like leading the way in terms of organizing sex workers and organizing around housing and doing performances every day and so to me there was something about her life that just plugged in the light for mine that's so beautiful um I want to know well actually something I learned from your book is that the me and Marsha P. Johnson was pay at no mind stood for pay at no which I had never known and that's so cool um but I want to know from you what were some of your favorite facts or quotes from Marsha that really um stood out to you as you were writing this book I loved how she moved to New York City in 1963 as an 18 year old and very quickly found a community she found a 13 year old Sylvia Rivera who was out hustling on the streets because she wasn't comfortable or safe at home and she used to rent these hourly hotels Marsha for her for her life and like adopted young ones and in them they would just dream they would sit together and imagine a world where they could go outside and feel less shame and more power and more beauty and not be harassed so I loved hearing about how Marsha, even as an 18-year-old, hit in Times Square, whereas, you know, taking care of her community, and then I loved learning about how she was an LA girl, and she was living in Calabasas, she was living in WeHo, she was living in Skid Row, and, you know, to me, that just felt so beautiful. She took her art and her magic everywhere she went. She performed in London, and so there's these expansive aspects of Marsha beyond, you know, the flowers in her hair, and which is so important, but about how she mothered, how she performed, how she showed up, and how she dreamed a world beyond the harsh conditions that she found herself in. I also didn't realize how young, yeah, Marsha was, but Sylvia. When I was reading the book, I didn't realize that she was so young, and something I think is really beautiful is, is your ability to show the fullness of, it's so easy to other, an activist, to make them put, put them on a pedestal, and only think of them in that way, and not a full person, and you really give a full personhood to Marsha P. Johnson in a way that I think we haven't maybe quite seen before. Well, I just think it's so important that we get to live full lives beyond just being only heroic, or only the villains. Like, sometimes we may mess up in relationships, or sometimes we're having, like, hard mental health days, and that, to me, was important to show, you know, Marsha navigating. How would you say your relationship with Marsha P. Johnson has changed since 2018 from your film, Happy Birthday, Marsha, to now with this book? You know, to me, as an organizer, you know, in the early 2000s, it was about her, Marsha's organizing tactics, and then as a filmmaker, it was about Marsha's performance, and now it's really about Marsha's spirit, her, like, spirituality, how she knew her life didn't start when she entered her physical body, and didn't end when she left it. Marsha's spirit abounds around us, and to me, I'm just, like, really reveling in that in a moment when we're all, you know, you can't open a screen, or hear from a loved one, or go outside without immediately being hit with a world that can be really hostile, and so, to me, I'm, like, tuning my dial to that Marsha spirit that pays it no mind, and also brings all of our community together, and I think that's really important, and I think that's really important, together, and that's been a huge change. Yeah. Something else that I was really curious about that really moved me in the book is how you talk about Marsha's, like, how she would adorn herself, and how that kind of quality came from her spirituality, and also from, like, growing up in the church. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Absolutely. So, you know, Marsha grew up in the church in Elizabeth, in Black Church, Mount Tiemann, and she also was taught to light candles for the saints, you know, so she was taught to light candles for the saints, and she was taught by Sylvia Rivera, and she had a real consistent spiritual practice that involved candles, prayer, and adornment with flowers on her head and flower crowns, and so that was a really big part of Marsha, and her favorite holiday was Easter, you know, resurrection, you know, and she really just, like, she was living out that lineage, you know, and that style, you know, and, you know, some of my favorite photographs. in general are, like, you know, Marsha, or, like, other Black women on Easter Sunday, like, turning up the volume of who we are, and so I love seeing Marsha step into that, but then also, like, make it extra camp, like, extra loud, extra, you know, it just is, yeah. Um, that's, I, there was a similar feeling in the way that, were you at Cecilia Gentile's funeral? No, I was in, I was in London, but I, I knew Cecilia for, like, over 15 years, um, but I, those photos were incredible. Yeah, being there felt like such a similar visceral feeling to what you created in this book and shown through Marsha, the, the camp, the drama, the legs, the tights, the, um, yes, I would say, like, all of the performance that kind of comes with not just queer people, but being in the church, that is something that I thought was such a beautiful bridge between, you know, Marsha's interest in the church, and then her performance as an artist, um, and just as a trans woman, but. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. I think that's so real, like, I grew up in the church, that's where I started to perform, you know, do theater, um, and it was a Catholic church, but there were so many queer people, and that's who was leading theater, you know, and so, you know, similarly, there's a church on Christopher Street, St. Veronica's, that Marsha was, you know, organizing candlelight vigils for her fellow street queens that were, you know, dying in the early, um, moments of the HIV AIDS crisis, and so there's, we always find each other, and we're always in these spaces, regardless of if the institutions want to, like, erase us, or, um, like, say we're not here, we're actually, like, we've always been here. More queer people in the church than many, like, to realize, okay, I'm gonna say Catholicism is camp. Yeah, Catholicism is literally camp. Literally, Catholicism is literally camp, exactly. Look at the Pope. I'm like, look at the Pope. Come on, Pope, where you go? Um, we touched on this a little bit when we were talking earlier, just about, like, the rainbow of it all, and the rainbow washing of Pride. How do you feel, you know, with the story of Marsha, and looking at where we are now, how do you feel about the contrast of Pride starting as a riot, and the way Pride now can kind of feel like a big marketing campaign? Yeah, I mean, that's so real. I think part of it is, you know, like, Pride, started in the back room of Stonewall, on the dance floor, Marvin Gaye, heard it through the grapevine, people reveling in this rare and often contested space of being together, right? Like, Stonewall was not a very welcoming place for people like Marsha. She could be there sometimes, and couldn't be there other times, right? And then the police raided it, and so there was this huge uprising, you know, that many, many, many people saw Marsha play, a primary role in, and also the young street queens in Sheridan Square, right? Like, people demanding that, you know, the state, the police recognize that, like, we are not going anywhere, like, and so, to me, that's really what Pride is about, and, like, we are not going anywhere, we are actually finally attuned to our beauty, and the, you know, United States Supreme Court, or the UK Supreme Court, doesn't get to tell me how I feel about myself, right? They're not, like, making any declarations about my understanding of me that I'm going to be adopting anytime soon, and so that's Marsha, and, you know, like, I think that's the real origin, and the real heart of Pride, and especially now, when our conditions are so harsh, like, that's the one I want us to all be tuned to. Are there any specific Pride rituals that you do every year? Oh, that's a really great question. You know, for a long time, I used to throw flowers in the water on Christopher Street, and just kind of pollinate the water, and I was doing it without knowing, I, you know, in the process of writing the book, I was watching Marsha's funeral procession, and they're all throwing sunflowers in the water, and it really was incredible to be like, oh, I'm, like, a big, and I was, that's exactly the spot, that I was doing it, like, without even knowing it, I was kind of, like, in this process with Marsha and Marsha's spirit, and so I think flowers in the water, I think, like, you know, dreaming, like, what would it be like if I knew my beauty, like, what, what would, how would I go out today if I, like, knew my beauty in an even deeper way, you know, like, or, like, how can I support our collective knowing, of, of our value in an even deeper way, I think those are some ones, and then just, like, you know, like, hey, just a key, you know, just a key on the corner, that's a big ritual for me, too. How are you celebrating pride? Hey, like that, yeah, yeah, yeah, do you ever go to Reese Beach, is that ever your truth, are you ever there? Yeah, literally, I've been going to Reese Beach, since 2005, and that has just been, it's been amazing to watch it change and not change, and, like, every five years, there's, like, you know, some big thing where we're, like, oh, Reese is never going to be the same, and yet it continues to be a place that we all go to. I remember, like, also, it's, like, you know, it's, it's not the nicest beach, I remember one year in, like, 2010, everyone that day, you know, it's not the nicest, no New York City beaches, just to be fair. Do you, wait, do you all go to Reese? Yeah, I've been, I, honestly, I didn't know there was, like, another part of the Rockaways. Oh, honestly, I was, like, I thought it was only Reese for the first, like, three years I lived in New York. I don't know, I'd be, I love Reese for what the feeling is of, like, being in queer community, and seeing so many bodies, and seeing bodies so free, and then I'm also, like, so that's human shit, love, love, and, like, you know, like, and I'm doing my best, I'm doing my best to see through it, but I'm also, like, oh, God, let me get my nutcracker and get it together, but. There was one year where we were all, this is, like, 2009, every single person was, like, covered in some kind of sea bug. I was, like, why is everyone washing their hands? themselves out like in the bathroom like people were ripping off their clothes in the bathroom like just take and i was like oh it's because there's some deep infestation in the water today like little did we know and that's reese it's like the contradictions and the beauty and queer joy i'm actually never getting in that water again just to be clear this is what queer joy looks like it's like a sea monster um literally this is such a hyper specific question you did a dream baby press love and hate list we've we've done it as well very seasoned yeah um but one of yours i have to call attention to has nothing to do with marsha b jones it's just a question on you said that you love theme park influencers and i'm gonna need you to say more on that yeah no okay so right now um my partner cameron is a an attorney in miami and so i've been living in miami for two years and we get the i you know cameron doesn't like theme parks but there's a discount discount you get for living in florida it's like 75 you can go to disney and so i just take these long drives to disney and like listening to my manifesting things and then i'm like what's going on here and i never as a child like i didn't grow up going to theme parks like it was a totally not part of my part of my life and then i went and i was like oh i get it it's about as an artist creating a emotional experience through physical infrastructure and sound and smell and so i'm like oh that's what i try to do with my filmmaking and my art like i try to have something that calibrates an audience to a paradigm shift like oh we have value or oh like we can go after our dreams or oh like we're really beautiful so that's a through line through my art and so the the reason why i enjoy theme park influencers is because there's a like there's a vibe of like oh nothing serious is going on here and i'm gonna like take you through this ride that is like a roller coaster or the new harry potter you know maybe not the new harry potter yeah i was like bold brave the new mario kart nintendo land or you know what i'm saying like and i'm like oh this is really fascinating this is on a scale that i really want to create on like for my art you know like right now i'm like oh this is really fascinating this is on a scale that i really right now i like make a short film or a show in museums but i want to create like just a really big immersive environment where people can move through and have that kind of paradigm shift that marsha was offering by doing um thrilling or ease filled or pleasure filled uh experiences like trans pride la was like that it was like those blocks and blocks and blocks anyway so all that is theme park influencers are just like living that life they're like going to the park and going every day you know like oh this is the food to eat at epcot or like these are the top 10 attractions this year and to me that's just something like i just get lost in the sauce with it that was a very long answer to that to the question i went on no i learned i was like that was actually a beautiful answer for something i was really nervous about yeah i was like you have to legally say more because theme park influencers can go either way but i liked your framing up yeah thank you so much for your time if you haven't go get marsha right now stop what you're doing and i'll see you next time this podcast for keep playing it as you walk to your new year's bookstore and go get marsha thank you so much tourmaline where can people follow you so i'm on instagram tourmaline with three eyes and also on substack it's uh yeah so thank you so much for having me and also at your local library or bookstore you can be you know picking up your copy of marsha it's also on spotify who knew anywhere you can listen to books it's available i did the narration it was really a process and i really appreciate y'all's time having me thank you thank you yeah happy pride i'm like get me out of new york city get me out get me to reese beach no i literally i had to really be like this is the beach but you're from la you're a beach snob i am a beach snob sorry but it was really beautiful until i like got in the water and i said that's not where i need to yeah but i'm gonna be a fan on the side i know we're gonna fight today we already have like 14 but i know we're gonna fight i know we're gonna fight right now let me say something off the top sure i love me some ace i don't care i don't care boo his tomato tomato i don't care that's my man and i'm standing by him he did nothing wrong jeremiah had to go no he had to go before austin for maga austin for that sharp face motherfucker we'll get to that but here's the thing jeremiah's a different type of time because ace from the very beginning from the very beginning ace clocked you're you're just unserious you want to like talk to this girl like stay with her throughout the whole thing no this is a game for people who win hunter let me tell you what you just told me there are cameras there are characters it's a show it's a show no no no he don't need to be serious no he can be as goofy as he want to be totally because we went on someone else's time on someone else's clock but ace clock ace's clock no ace i saw the tweet that's like ace is 22 and running that house like the navy and he is i love i mean ace looking at taylor uh you're have no sense of urgency no excuse me you know you need to you need to pull it together this is a landress on the line you need to lock in ace to um jeremiah i don't know what you're talking about how to you're you're love bombing each other and it's too much and it needs to stop it's too much drama here and then the conversation with ace when uh huda was on the chopping block and ace and shelly like were one of the couples who voted to save her and huda turned to ace and was like and asa helma i said uh god forbid a man's in on business is it even clocking to you the business that he's standing on right now a hunter yvonne harris moment if i've ever seen one i said i don't fuck with you i'm not fucking with you and you know at least with amaya papaya he did say straight up i don't like the babe i miss me with that i don't like all like the touchy-feely stuff i i'm not that into this i cannot defend him on that and but i'm glad that he said it because listen look at austin look at austin not saying it give the opportunity well austin is a trump supporter and she said i'm dominican and he said oh i mean i don't even know austin's just there cleaning the pool half the time of his life getting sunburned my god get him off the show the issue with sunday night's elimination was that one austin was right there you are all going to vote to get jeremiah out why because he's your competition that is the only reason no no no no no because they saw that fine ass woman walk in i've never seen a body like that body so tea i'm dehydrated oh waste where he dehydrated it can it can hydrate in some circles and that's not the point of this totally okay i mean she's literally the baddest witch i've ever seen in in maybe like a year or a month in love island history at least no she's she's 10 on 10 except for personality he's not really giving that's why she and jeremiah she's so hot she don't need a personality she is fine right where she is period and say that and that's what people say about me often actually except i have a huge personality we have too much personality on this show it just felt like ace was threatened by this person they all love them some i forgot her name and so i do think that like andre what is it adreina i definitely butchered that that's fine but i just feel like ace the minute i saw that it was who was a voting ace that one step lesbian taylor and uh nick yeah taylor who literally taylor's built like a stud taylor taylor being like i'm built like a hooper no you're built like a stud my king i'm so sorry to tell you the truth oh my god he ain't lifting nobody but those two were right behind ace always they based in on business and that business is ace and they said it's over for jeremiah even jeremiah's face was twitching just like i know i know no i was watching um ace fan cams this afternoon this morning and i was laughing having a time girl and remy comes over to me he wants to see what's on the screen no it was no i swear to god it was so funny but let me tell you ace is playing the game it's not called friendship island it's called love island it's not called ace island it's a million dollars island i don't even know how much money they win not from the beginning clock that jeremiah was annoying and and he executed he had a plan he the way that ace had his sights set on getting jeremiah out of the house maybe because he is handsome but absolutely to graduate from this show to train him to be a good person and he's a good person and he's a good person and he's because he'd win in a heartbeat okay wait i do have to ask how did you feel about the girl eliminate um they eliminated hannah i don't care about hannah that was fine i don't say that they could lose pepe too like he's hot but i their relationship was never giving to me they're just like kind of random well now i think that huda's gonna step her pussy game up as if she hasn't before and make a beeline for pepe now i think that they should because definitely he's not tj's not feeling her no he made that clear yeah that was quite obvious i do think that hannah or excuse pepe from anyone in the house yeah um but who do you think's gonna go after andreina now everyone who has eyes include shelly shelly should shelly i'm still getting over the way that ace was dogging her so i'm really pro i'm pro shelly just being a little bit more bi because i will say in terms of who's acting the most gay right now not shelly who came out is actually sierra sierra oh yeah i'm like is she gay or she just liked that i can't tell i love sierra i love sierra i love - I love Sierra. - I do and I was sad that Nick made her cry. Nick lost a few points for me. lost many points but of course listen men are i'll say dumbasses and so nick and ace putting their heads together they're like oh it's because you guys had sex no it's like did you not hear the conversation you just had this is what i'm like oh my god they just had sex with her and was like but you could do whatever you want like because i'm gonna do whatever it's so crazy ace usually on he's he's usually he needs to tighten up and if he does usually give good advice he really does he should be the future host of the show and listen because you know ari monix is not giving oh it's very jennifer hudson show i don't watch ariana monc ariana maddox's hosting capabilities is very jennifer hudson it's like well so someone has to talk someone has to be the host here beautiful gowns oh beautiful gowns beautiful abs beautiful body yeah yeah yeah she's in the gym working on her fitness yeah we're her witnesses but i'm gonna say something i'm gonna say something okay i might be on that huda redemption arc really i just you know people were shocked that she was not in the bottom three but i wasn't because someone who has so many haters has that many more people to talk to and i'm like oh my god i'm gonna be on that huda redemption arc that ride hard for them and maybe because my palestinian princess she's just having a hard time is she from palestine she's palestinian i don't think she's from palestine but um well okay yeah and i don't know who they're let's i'm hoping that the casa boys hit at least oh no they do show them the preview um the asian one i forgot his name um fine as fine as fuck but crazy very i'm from london haircut oh very like blunt cut very turf bob but fine as hell everywhere else i didn't see i didn't look that closely i just like a clip of them and i was like i couldn't even see faces really i was just like oh they all look fine i'm spy kids meme i'm like let's see truly okay who do you want dropped from the villa next for the boys next up i want austin totally want him gone out of the girls iris isn't doing i know they need a token white which one is iris exactly the white the missable white who's paired up with her missable other way with the lip filler yeah um no i she's fine i i i don't mind her i guess no i guess if someone has to go but i know everyone loves amaya i'm kind of like i don't think it's i don't think your man is in this villa i'm gonna be honest i don't think he's here i don't think i also i could go with huda leaving too truly i've had a bit i've had enough no no i need her i need her to get her no alandria uh shelly sierra and i we've had a bit much we're we're all aligned to like girl alandria's exhausted your your man's not coming here you know basketball that's the meme of that guy that's alandria and the in love island all bent over oh my god okay wait back to you who would you kick off next boy and girl uh 100 austin because i've he was cute at first but oh you know what i was saying though um uh 100 austin yeah i've had i'm just kind of tired he doesn't seem to have any new connections either he's like not really talking to the girls he's not trying um exactly he's not trying and that's what that's kind of business that ace stands on you have to he has to see effort to stay in this house you ride for your man i'll be your shotgun rider that's about you and ace no i was thinking beyonce my house who they came to see me okay what girl are you kicking off amaya amaya i want better for her i don't think it's here for her twitter's gonna have a gun to your head for saying that okay fine iris fine i'll bow to peer pressure and say iris i just need this is a call to action even though the girls have no access to internet but i'm gonna say i need them to slut it up and casa more i want the whores in this house okay that's all i'm asking that's all i'm begging for please god and zine yeah well that's it for this week as usual we are two online so you don't have to be but we will be offline and at infatuations eats con in los angeles on june 28th we will see you there and hopefully we will also see austin because he will be out of the villa why would i want to see austin i don't and quickly but let me tell you what i am listening to the new hyme album we didn't talk about this week but oh i love it but i do have clear favorites or clear standouts yeah well we don't have time for that right now follow us on socials at let me say this pod at peyton dicks and at hunter h let me say this it's hosted by me peyton dicks and me hunter harris let me say this is a production of wondering yo it's a fast talk my talk let me say this yo i go off when i want let me say this yo oh my god yeah we love it too we hate it yo get your fast i'ma talk let me say this let me say this let me say this is hosted by me peyton dicks and me hunter harris let me say this is a production of wondering production services by dcp entertainment for dcp the producer is ryan ronkema the executive producers are adele coleman and felice leon our theme song is by scott velasquez for wondering eliza mills is a development producer our managing producer is taylor sniffen nick ryan is our senior managing producer our producer is kate young our senior producer is brian taylor white our senior producer is kate young our senior producer is kate young our senior the executive producers are aaron o'flaherty and marshall louis hi i'm nicole phelps global fashion news and features director at vogue and co-host of the run-through podcast each week on the show our listeners get an all-access pass into the world of vogue on tuesdays join me as i interview influential designers like calvin klein rachel scott and simone bellotti on thursdays join chloe mal head of editorial content at vogue us and showman nadi british vogue's head of editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like doja cat and margot robbie listen and watch the 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