Mastering Resilience, AI’s Unstoppable Rise, and Can We Truly Change?

drew have you felt the agi yet the agi yeah and i don't mean athletic greens you're an adjusted gross income that's where my mind would god i'm a fucking nerd oh my god that's right where my brain went artificial general intelligence okay agi yeah you know have i felt it have you felt it do you know do you know what i'm referring to i is this a dirty joke you're sitting up here what is this no felt agi no so what do you mean i'm not referring the sex bots okay or uh yeah so like a year ago there was all this uh speculation around open ai's like new chat model and that maybe you know there's like all this doomerism of like right you know are we gonna is the ai gonna destroy the world or and there was like this brief period where a bunch of the founders and top researchers at open ai left around the same time and you know i'm not referring to the sex bots or uh yeah so like a year ago there was all this speculation around open ai's like new chat model and that maybe you know there's like around that time one like one of the top guys posted on on twitter he said he said feel the agi and then he like mysteriously left the company okay and so there was all this speculation and like conspiracy theories that like open ai open ai had invented artificial general intelligence okay yeah and they were freaked out and they were like trying to hide it okay but it has since become a meme of like as we all like use ai more and more i felt the agi like a month ago and i i couldn't tell you exactly when i was using it but i was like using it using ai for something and i just kind of had this like sinking feeling in my chest of like why do anything like this like this thing this thing is gonna soon be doing everything in the world oh yeah value so why try why even like it was like this very it was this very dark and like existential despair but it immediately flipped towards like oh my god i'm never gonna have to worry about anything again because the agi is just gonna take care of me like the way i take care of my dog like is any of this registering with you at whatsoever no oh my god i mean i mean we have so much to catch catch you up on we do all right maybe i'm never mind you're getting a little ahead of ourselves the listeners understand you do okay some of them okay if you felt the agi send leave a comment felt the agi i don't remember that if you felt the agi leave a comment tell us what it felt like have you felt the agi so it's like that deep inside you like that penetrating it that's what i was that's what i thought you meant and so now i'm trying to sort that out from what the fuck i'm actually trying to suppose to think about this i don't know okay what is this episode about well we're gonna talk about agi later but you got you got it yeah you you're you got some spittle oh god i can't take you anywhere i know mark let's get into the fuck of the week and then we'll talk we're gonna talk about resilience because you're gonna need it when you feel the agi is that where you were going with this okay that was all right all right god with the time who's steering this shit it's 2025 it's 2025 if you've not felt the agi you're not using ai enough people andrew roll the clip thing where we do the fuck of the week please please please we're doing it here we go it's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host mark manson all right what are we doing the fuck of the week is resilience um oh i want to talk a little bit about what resilience really is because i think there's some misconception about that sure and then how we can be more resilient in our lives um if there are concrete steps um maybe some models we can look at or anything like that so yeah but to start it off let's talk about what resilience is maybe a good way to do that is what do you think most people get wrong about resilience i think what most people get wrong about resilience is that they think it's just about enduring pain for an extended period of time that it's just it's that's not resilience it's pure suffering okay i i think a large part of resilience is actually kind of there's there's a lot of people who think it's just about enduring pain for an extended period of time so i think it's kind of there's a lot of people who think it's just about enduring pain for an extended period of time so one thing that i talk about a lot is is that there's this allegory from buddhism called the two arrows right and the buddha said that every time you experience pain you're it's like getting shot by two different arrows and the first arrow is the physical pain you know it's the arrow piercing your skin but the second arrow is the narrative that we create around the first arrow right so the first arrow is inevitable but it's also the narrative that we create around the first arrow it's also temporary but the second arrow it's not inevitable we created ourselves and it's also not temporary if we don't let it be right so it's like we all have uh first arrows that happened to us years and years ago like pains struggles that we went through embarrassments failures and all of those momentary pains went away at some point most of us at some point in our lives we're like oh my god i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this pain and told us stories about ourselves that enhanced multiplied the pain and multiplied the suffering and made it more difficult to bounce back from it right so i think what most people get wrong is they think resilience is more about sustaining the first arrow like just knowing how to get shot and grit your teeth and deal with it but really what resilience is is managing the second arrow yeah is not not spinning up the the stories that torture yourself and managing those narratives and stories in a way that like you don't make things harder on yourself that you can actually like uh maybe propel yourself forward using that pain right yeah and you wrote an article about uh basically about post-traumatic growth a long time ago yeah how to grow from your pain or something along those lines and the big point in that was just that it's not it's not the the pain or the trauma itself that's the uh even the thing to focus on or the thing that catalyzes change is what you do afterwards and i think that's a big well we'll probably come back to that time and time again in this discussion but right that's a huge huge point that i think a lot of people miss is that it's not yeah it's not the pain that makes you stronger or anything like that it's what you do in reaction to it right it's the the it's the meaning that you attach to it and there are certain types of meaning that you can attach to pain that can actually be leveraged to grow okay yeah yeah okay well you you did you wrote this article too on on resilience as well uh and conquering adversity and all this and there was this fun little experiment you went through oh i think this was the impetus for the article anyway is when you were testing all these like mental health apps yes um can do you want to go into that sure so what happened this was probably four or five years ago it was actually during the pandemic so uh i briefly became really interested in and potentially developing like some sort of mental health app or personal growth app and so i was testing all the different apps on the market and there are tons of them like dozens and dozens and dozens and so i was logging on to all of these and it uh i was just quickly intensely disappointed because every single one basically had the same functionality which is it immediately validated whatever i said you know so if i got on and said oh what are you dealing with today and i'm like um i'm a little bit anxious about this podcast right the first thing it would say is like i know being anxious is very hard is there anything else you'd like to tell me about your anxiety and then you know i tell it something else and like i'm so sorry you're feeling that way and i'm like i'm so sorry you're feeling that way and i'm like i'm so sorry you're feeling that way it's really hard being anxious isn't it mark tell me more about your feelings and it just went on and on and on and it just became this like circle jerk of like oh my god tell me how you feel it must be so hard to be you oh you're so special i wish you deserve so much better and like i found it so intensely unhelpful and in some ways counterproductive because like don't get me wrong i understand that some people when they're in a lot of pain they do need their emotions validated to a certain extent but very quickly you need to get past that emotional validation and get into the second arrow right get into the meaning of like okay what is it about this podcast that you feel anxious about do you think you're gonna fail at it do you think people are gonna laugh at you do you think you're underprepared do you think drew is gonna be a meanie like what is it that is intimidating you right and then let's pick apart that narrative and see if there's any any evidence for it or any truth behind it or if you're just kind of being irrational and like blowing things up in your head there was none of that it was all just like oh i'm so sorry you feel bad here here's a balloon image to make you feel better uh it was beyond useless it was it was insulting to a certain extent essentially that what you're saying you don't build psychological resilience by feeling good all the time you build psychological resilience by getting better at feeling bad that's yes you've said that in various ways throughout the years and i think that's the main takeaway about what resilience really is this is not hey how do i just feel better right um or or how do i yeah remove that pain to the first arrow you don't yes it's that second it's you alter your orientation to the pain right it's like understanding like instead of being like oh my god it's the first arrow this is horrible why does this happen to me i don't deserve this right like that's kind of our default reaction it's instead looking at it and saying oh it's another first arrow well i've dealt with lots of these before i'm sure i can deal with this What can I learn from this first arrow? what mistakes that I made? How can I get better? It's asking good questions. It's being realistic about orienting yourself, like understanding that a lot of life is random. Tragedy strikes everybody. You know, everybody screws up and fails at some point. There's nothing unique or special about your pain. There's no like predestined universe has decided you get to feel pain now. It's like, this is life, dude. Like everybody's, everybody's struggling. Everybody's going through a lot. So let's just try to be as, as clear eyed and realistic as possible about that struggle and figure out like, what are, what are some useful things that we can do in that moment? Right. Well, what are some of those useful things, Mark? You had some, um, uh, some recommendations, a few tips to help you out. You actually had five, um, that I've gathered from various spots. So, so one of those, the first one of those being care about something greater than yourself. Yeah. I, I, I personally think in Arthur Brooks was on a while back and he talked about this as well as like, you know, the optimal mental health kind of demands that we find something that we care about more than ourselves. And there are a few reasons for that. One is it just imbues kind of our entire lives with meaning, you know, and that, that could be raising a family. It could be a career. It could be a mission. It could be a, a social cause. It could, it could be a lot of things, but it's like, it could be a religion. It's like, ultimately you have to find something in your life that, that, that is so important that, that it deserves, uh, uh, to outlast you. Um, and, but the other benefit from that is that it, it helps ameliorate the downsides of life, right? So it's like, if you're just the center of everything in your life, as soon as something bad happens, man, you're going to have a really hard time coping with that. But if you've got some higher mission or higher purpose that you're, you're aiming for and you're pushing for when something goes wrong, that mission or purpose is going to, is going to keep everything oriented in the right direction, right? It's going to, it's going to pull you out of the muck. It's going to be the rope that kind of pulls you out of the muck because it will force you because it is more important than you and your feelings. It will force you to find ways to handle and deal with your feelings so that you can move on and continue to move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Again, the research backs all that up too. If you are, uh, more religious, people tend to be a little bit more resilient or, or people who are attached to, uh, causes, big causes that are outside of themselves that, that requires them, uh, some sort of sacrifice that they have to contribute. So yeah, that's. And by the way, like anecdotally, I've noticed this just, uh, you know, watching so many of my friends have kids. Oh yeah. Like just talking to them, like this is, this is anecdotally, this is probably the biggest shift I've seen and all the people that I've seen have kids is that they say they're like, for the first time in my life, there's something that is, way more important than me that I care about way more than myself. And I, I've, I've, I've talked to them and they've said like, yeah, it's kind of easier to deal with bullshit now because it's, it's not about me. Yeah. It's very clarifying. Yeah, exactly. Like I, now I always know, you know, what I need to do, why I need to get back up and try again. Right. And it's, it's, um, there's something powerful to that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that kind of gets right in the second one too, which is focus on what you can control. And I'll just say upfront, what the research says, if you have more of an internal locus of control and like focus on the things you can't control, you're more resilient. Why do you think that is? Well, this is the old stoic thing, right? It's, it's, um, you know, focus on what you can, can control and then like, let go of what you can't control. I think there's just like a real practicality in that. And that, um, you know, a huge amount of our wellbeing is, is driven through a sense of agency, like a feeling that like we have, uh, we are determining the outcomes in our lives. And so if you are constantly focusing on factors that you cannot influence or you cannot control, um, you're removing that sense of agency from yourself. Whereas when you are focusing on the things in front of you that you can control, you're amplifying that sense of agency. And so aside from it, just improving mental wellbeing, like it's also just practical, right? Because it's, if you're constantly focusing on stuff that's outside of your control, then you're, you're essentially wasting attention and energy, right? So you're gonna get less done. You're gonna be less influential. You're, you're gonna make less progress, right? And progress also feels good. So aside from just the sense of agency, you also get a greater sense of progress and growth and feeling as though like your life's actually moving somewhere. Yeah. This next one was inward optimism, outward pessimism, and generally kind of, you could kind of characterize this as negative visualization a little bit. Sure. But then there's also the inward optimism part of that. So what do you mean by that? This came from a reader question, a really early newsletter. Like this was probably a newsletter in like 2016 or 2017. And it was asking me, should you be an optimist or a pessimist? Like it's like pessimists are gonna be better prepared when things go wrong, but an optimist is gonna like have a higher expectation of success. So like what is actually better? And it sent me down a research rabbit hole. And basically the, the conclusion I came to is, is what's there is an inward optimist, outward pessimist, which is that generally speaking, people who expect good, good performance from themselves achieve better performance. The more you think yourself capable of doing something, the more likely you are to end up doing it. This kind of comes back to the agency thing, but also to the negative visualization point, people who mentally rehearse, uh, problems that could occur or things that could go wrong, the more prepared they are when things do go wrong. Right. So, um, and I think if, and just kind of logically, if you think about it, if you think about the least effective people in the world, like think about the least effective people, you know, in your life, right? Chances are they drastically underestimate their own power and agency, right? They think they can't do anything when actually they can. And generally they overestimate how the outside world should go, right? They expect everything in their environment to work perfectly and go correctly and for nothing to go wrong and for nothing to go wrong and for nothing to go wrong and for nothing to go wrong and for nothing to go wrong. Both of those just lead to a lot of pain and suffering, right? So it's, if you flip those around, expect a lot from yourself and then prepare for the worst with everybody else. And that's seems to be the most effective orientation to have with the world. Yeah. But yeah. Um, Tim Ferriss popularized that maybe like 10 or 12 years ago and, and, and it's, yeah, it's super useful. And he, I think the way he says it is he's like, if you want to do something and you're afraid to do it, uh, like mentally go through the worst possible outcome and like really write it out. Like, okay, if this goes as bad as it possibly can, here's how people are going to react. Here's how my life is going to change here. Here are all of the things I'm going to have to deal with all the fallout that's going to happen. Um, all the lessons I'm going to have to learn. And he said that like 95% of the time, when you do this exercise, as you're writing, you realize you're like, this is, isn't that bad. This is what I started using just within the last few months to worst case scenario. Let's really think this through. I'm like, Oh, I can do that. That's fine. I'm actually okay. These people over here are going to hate me if I do this. I won't give a shit. Cool. I'm glad they do. You know? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That's a, that's a good one. But this next one's kind of related to that too. Then the find your inner masochist. So you posted this on social media. You said the second twisted truth about human nature is that as much as we crave feeling good all the time, there's a small part of us. That kind of likes the pain and the struggles. Yes. Yeah. Hit me, daddy. Feel the AGI, feel the AGI deep inside you. No, it's funny. Whenever I give talks, this is, this is always like a hit line. You know, it's like, I, I, I'm like up on stage and I call the audience a bunch of masochists. And then I start, I tell them to like spank me. If you can imagine I'm doing this, I'm doing it. I'll do this in like a conference of like, you know, insurance brokers, or something. And it's just like this awkward laughing that goes on in the audience. Oh God, we don't have real jobs. Thank me, daddy. So here's the thing. This is actually good because this ties together a few of the threads that we've talked about. So if you find some sort of higher mission or purpose in your life, something you truly believe is more important than yourself, something really interesting happens, which is that the struggles that start happening along the way, you kind of start relishing them a little bit. Like it's, it's, there's a, obviously you don't want that struggle, but like, there's a weird kind of, um, I've talked to other authors about this, about how like, like the struggle of writing a book is fucking real. Like it is mentally one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life. But like when I hang out with other authors and we talk about writing a book or like I hang out with an author and he's like, like really deep in the middle of a first draft and just hating his life. There's like this romanticism about it. It's just like, Oh man. Oh yeah. I remember man, back in 2019 I was like writing this book and Oh God, I was like staying up till 2am and I fucking like woke up middle of the night. Like it just, I think everybody's got something like that. Like you kind of secretly really like it. And, uh, and there's a lot of pride and identity around it. Right? Like it's like, okay, yeah, I really suffered from, for what I achieved. And I think, you know, there's a little bit of a, you know, I look at, I look at like some of the, there's a little bit of like porn around stuff like Navy SEAL training and special forces and, and stuff like that. And, and I think a lot of that is this, like it's, it's, there's this, a little bit of a masochism of, of like, you know, seeing how, seeing what you're made of, seeing how much you can endure and knowing it's for a really, really good cause or purpose. Like there, like that just hits a sweet spot in the human brain that we secretly kind of relish it. And even when we're in the thick of it, you're like, yeah, I'm glad I kind of, I'm feeling this right now. Yeah. I've, I've seen you, we've had people on the podcast who were like in the middle of writing a book or something like that. And you just perk right up. You're like, oh yeah. Yeah. Tell me about it. Yeah. Yeah. How are you getting spanked? Tell me all about it. Like, wait, you are. Oh, it is. It's like a secret. I imagine it's similar. I don't know. I imagine it's similar with like military veterans or something, you know? Yeah. You know, it's like just like trading stories. Yeah. Authors, they get this weird, you know, it's like, how's the draft going, dude? Like, oh man, I'm like, I've got this chapter eight and it's like, none of it's making sense. And like, fuck, I think I'm gonna have to rewrite the, the, the first part again. And like, and I'm just like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I hear you, buddy. I hear you, you know, put your arm around him. It's like, I've been there, dude. You're like, you're comforting them, but you're actually like, oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's also like a sick, like, you know, well, okay. So that gets into the last one actually too, which is never suffer alone. And actually, so this is, there's a, there's a social aspect to this and the research, one of the repeatedly, one of the findings they find repeatedly is that having social support is like, that's a bedrock of resilience. And I think that gets overlooked a lot too. People are like, how can I be resilient? How can I conquer my adversity in this? And it's like, well, you don't, you do it with other people. Yeah. Right. And I think having the other people with you adds to that sense of meaning and purpose as well. Right. Cause it's like, ultimately we are social creatures and it's just having people who are on the same path and who are enduring the same pain and hardship that we're enduring. It like, it amplifies that sense of purpose and, and makes things that much easier. Maybe that's why I relish it with authors too. You know, like it's just, you know, it is like, I empathize with where they are and I know that it's like, if I can just make them feel like they're not alone. And it, and it like relieves a little bit of that burden for them. Yeah. Yeah. I actually had this conversation like a year ago with a friend of mine, maybe it was like a family member, but I was in a period, I was in one of those periods with the business where I was just working like an insane person. And, um, and I was talking to somebody and they were like, you know, how are things going? I'm like, ah, I'm like, I'm working a lot, you know, it's been a lot. And, uh, and they're like, well, tell me about that, you know? And I started talking about it and like, yeah, I'm like working weekends and, you know, probably at least one evening each week and, you know, probably put in 70, 75 hours a week at least. And, um, you know, but it's temporary and we're scaling up and we're doing this. We're like launching a bunch of stuff. And, and it was funny cause they started trying to give me like work life balance advice. And I was like, they got like two minutes into it. I'm like, actually, I don't want this. I'm like, don't get me wrong. I'm suffering, but I really like suffering this way. Like this is, this is, I'm happy with this. Stress in my life. And, uh, and I, I, I also know it's temporary. So I'm like willing to make this trade off for a short period of time. So I suppose that's another way to look at, at the resilience equation is like, if you can, if it's possible to view the struggle in your life as a trade-off for something greater, whether it's in the future or for somebody else that you care about or from, for some cause that you care about, as long as it feels like there's a good trade-off happening, then you'll be okay with it. Yeah. You'll, you'll endure it. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. That's all I got for this section. I think. Thank you for listening to my presentation. We'll be right back after these messages. Mark will make you feel the AGI. Bend over. We are back with the AGI. We are. And that is what we're talking about. We're talking about AI and a little bit different for the billionaire bullshit this week, but, um, is one of these statements brilliant and one of them bullshit, or we can debate AI will doom humanity or AI will save humanity. Neither. Okay. All right. Neither. Let's get into what's brilliant and bullshit about this. Well, I'm glad we're coming back to this because we talked about AI a few months ago. December. Yeah. Yeah. A few months ago. It was really around creativity was what the kind of centered around, but yeah, it was about how it was going to affect our industry. Right. But I mean, that was December and an AI age that was, it's already changed. Two months ago, three months ago. Yeah. Um, and I will say just, just in the last month, I've probably used, I mean, I've been using AI most of the day, every day in the last month. I have been, I've been using it every day and Matt has been using it more and more. So yeah. Yeah. Same. Is it going to doom humanity? No. Is it going to save humanity? No. Things never turn out as bad as you think they're going to turn out and they never end up as good as you hope. Right. It'll end up, you know, so it's, um, and humans are always going to human, right? So it's like, as soon as if AGI, like, let's imagine that, uh, some super AI like solved every human problem in existence, three minutes later, we'd be dissatisfied and like, want something that the AI can't provide for us. Cause that's just how we're built. Right. That's human nature. So I was telling a friend about this. It, one, this is one thing I'm starting to notice, like to kind of walk through the AI, my personal AI timeline, you know, chat GPT came out, uh, end of 23. Um, and it felt like a cool party trick. Yeah. Like it was like, okay, this is fun. I can have it write poetry or whatever, but it was like any, anytime I tried to get it to do serious work, it was pretty mediocre. Right. Um, and then G GPT four came and there were some uses, it was okay for brainstorming some stuff and, you know, occasionally it could like point you in the right direction, maybe give you an idea or something. Um, but still like a very, you know, basic tool, uh, at some point in the last three months, it's, it feels like it turned a corner and now it just feels absolutely indispensable for the first time. Like I said, I felt the AGI about a month ago. Right. It's like really just in the last few weeks, it feels like, okay, this does feel like it's going to kind of take over everything. Like it's going to integrate into every aspect of our lives and disrupt and displace a huge, huge amount of what most people spend their time doing probably the most since like the internet in the nineties. Um, I was telling a friend recently, I said, you know, I've, I've lived, I've now lived through, I guess, four technological revolutions. And I said, the thing that feels different about this one is like, the more I use it, the more I feel like I should be using it. Like, like I remember when, when mobile came around, like iPhones were super cool. But like, God, I should be doing something else. Exactly. Exactly. And it was the same with the internet and it was the same with social media. And like, this is the first time that like, when I'm, when I'm not using a AI, I'm like, I should just be doing this with the AI. Like, like it'd be so much easier and faster and more efficient. Um, I've actually like, I've hit the point was with nonfiction books. Like I think books might be cooked, dude. I'd say the last like five to 10 nonfiction books I've read, I've gotten really impatient partway through. And it took me a while to realize that it's like, I'm so accustomed to just chatting with a knowledge base and having the answer like immediately delivered to me with all sorts of links and references and being able to like, like I start reading a nonfiction book and I get two chapters in and I'm like, this is really slow. Like, I wish I'd just get to what I want to know. And so I'm already feeling my brain being trained that way. And I like, and when I think about it, as the knowledge, like the data sets get better and as the user experience gets better, um, I could really see books feeling as though they're like just a clunky, inefficient, like medium for information transfer. And that freaks me out as an author a little bit. Right. Um, the other thing, I don't know if you've messed around with like, uh, these like AI companion apps at all. I haven't really. No, I know you have, but they're strange, but it took me a while. To kind of under, like, I I've been using them just cause I want to understand them. Like, apparently like the, the, the usage rate, like the people who use them, they like use them an absurd amount, especially young people like Jen's ears. Yeah. Like the usage rates are through the roof. And it's like very reminiscent. If you look at the data on like how much they use them or like the usage per session, it's very reminiscent of like social media in the early days, like Facebook, right. When it came out. So I've been like messing around with those and they have a bad rap because I think the, the super early adopters were just like creepy, horny dudes who wanted to like sexed with an AI girlfriend. And there's definitely that if, if that's your thing, if you want to go feel that AGI, you can go feel it. Uh, that's where technology always starts out too. Exactly. Porn is always the first thing in any, any medium. Uh, but what, like if you actually go mess around with it, so like one of the, one of the, the most popular, uh, companion apps, I think called character AI, uh, in one of the most popular like conversations, it's just called the Hogwarts and it basically just drops you into a Harry Potter fan fiction. It says like, you're a new student at Hogwarts. is your first day. Okay. And you can write, it'll give you like, you know, part of the story and then you get to add whatever you want to it. And then it'll like, it'll keep adapting to your version of the story. Oh, that's kind of cool. So it's like an interactive novel. Yeah. Right. So it's like, it's like a choose your own adventure, but like real time, real time. And it's like infinite decision trees. Oh, that's pretty cool. I love choose your own adventure. It's sick. It's so cool. That's pretty cool. And so I've actually hit this realization just in the last few days of like, a, this feels like a new medium. Like it feels like a new form of entertainment entirely. It's not like a better version of books or a better version of movies. It's, it's like a, just a completely, it's a new category all on, all of its own. But then I also look at it and I'm like, fuck man. Like why read a novel when you can be in the novel? Ah, yeah. You know, it's a personalized novel. It's personalized. So it's like, you can take it any direct, like if you don't like a character, kill them, you can get rid of them. Yeah. You'd be like, I don't want to talk to that guy anymore. I want to hang out with this character. Okay. And then it completely, you and I could like, technically like do this, the same AI novel and have completely different storylines. Yeah. This, that's wild. Okay. Yeah. It is going to disrupt and change everything on a scale that like, I think the internet's probably the only comparable thing. Right. Yeah. The, you, you talked about like the rate of adoption of these things too, which is insane. So I think there's different kind of groups of people who see that some people just aren't even using it right now. I can, I have a whole bunch of stats here. I'm not going to go through them all, but like, there's a lot of people who still aren't using them, but the adoption, it's a lot of people are using them really coming around. Then there's people who used them early on and they thought they sucked and they just haven't went back yet. I think that's a mistake probably. Totally. If you're one of those people, you should get back on and start messing with it. Which you made that point in the last time we talked about AI on here was actually what you said. If you're not using it, you're dumb is what you said. Uh, me insult my audience. That would never happen. That didn't go over well with some people. Yeah. Surprise, surprise. Um, but yeah, I, I think I do want to talk about the two, what the average person can do right now. Yeah. What's going to prepare us best for this, this crazy world that you you're, I think you're, you're more into it than anybody. I know you've, you've dove into AI more than anybody. I haven't, I use it all the time, but I feel like I'm still surface level very much. So, um, so if there's somebody out there who, I don't know, it doesn't, really even understand it or they use it a little bit and they're like, yeah, it's kind of fun or whatever, but they just, they'll see it as a toy. They see it as social media, the new version of or whatever. What, what do you think we need to be doing right now? I think the best thing you can do is just set aside, take like a Saturday morning or something, block off three hours and just make yourself play around with it. Yeah. It is a slow burn. It is. Yeah. Like, you do kind of have to learn how to use it. And it took me a long time to realize as well, is that like you get the quality of the output is directly proportional to the quality of the input, which is just like a relationship you have with anybody else. Exactly. Right. Exactly. You have to treat it like that. So like, if you just show up and you're like, uh, give me a new workout routine, it'll give you the most bland blase. Yeah. Like it's going to be useless. You can be like, wow, this sucks. Why would anybody use this? But if you go to it and you're like, look, I'm a 40 year old male. Uh, I have a history of lower back injuries. Um, these are my PR weights. These are, this is how much I can do. And I'm like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. This is how much I weigh. These are my goals for the year. This is my schedule. This is how much time I have. This is roughly how much protein I'm eating. Can you design a four day split workout routine that changes every quarter, uh, to keep things novel and will increase, ideally increase my PRS by, uh, 10 to 12% over the course of the next year, it will give you the most fucking incredible output. It will like, and it will break everything down for you. And you can ask it for details. You can be like, well, why did you, why did you pick front squats instead of back squats? Or like, what was the reasoning for, uh, you know, adding, uh, having this day off instead of that day off. And it'll explain it to you. It's like having a really great fitness coach just right in front of you. And so it's, it's a combination of like a being really creative with what you ask it. Cause it literally can talk to you about anything. And then B giving it really good inputs, like take the extra time to prompt it. Well, and then you can do it. And then you can do it. And then like really give it specific details. One thing you can do, and you suspect that the prompt's not great. You can actually ask it, what can I do to improve my prompt so that you give me better information? And it will tell you what you should have asked it, which is crazy. It's absolutely crazy. Like I asked it, I asked it really feel in the AGI there. Seriously. No. So I asked it a lot. And it like gave me some pretty, some pretty boring. And like, it was like kind of what a generic, like any, anything that you would see on Twitter or Instagram, like that kind of advice. And I was like, well, this isn't very useful. And then, so I asked it, I was like, I was like, okay, well, what should I be asking you that I'm not? And it like gave me this list of 12 different things. And it was like, well, tell me about your audience. What are the demographics? Tell me about you? Like how, what's your relationship? And I was like, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't like with them. What platforms are you primarily focused on? Like, like what are you converting them to? Like, where are you trying to promote a podcast? Are you trying to promote a YouTube video or do you want them on your newsletter? Like it was like having a hiring a business consultant. It was crazy. So, uh, that would be my recommendation to anybody. Like think about whatever, whatever, what's the area in your life that like, you know, I gave the workout example, like that, that workout example is, is a, prompt. I gave it like just a couple of days ago. Um, think about the thing in your life that you want to improve or that you want to work on, but you just like, you haven't had the time to like really dig into it or do the research or go talk to somebody or like whatever. And just like take a couple hours on a Saturday morning and just, just go hard with chat GPT on it. And you will be shocked how far you'll get. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you've kind of, you've made a bull case there. Yes. Somebody's going to listen to that though. And they're going to say, okay, Mark, so you just said that writers, personal trainers, you know, uh, social media consultants, uh, they're not going to be needed. Uh, so there's going to be people out there saying, well, what the fuck am I going to do then? How, how am I going to pay for all these models, AI models in the first place? If I'm not going to have a job, you posted, you've been very open with the rest of the team about the AI that you use and everything like that. And you say, okay, I need you guys to start using this. The other day you posted this announcement and immediately one of the reactions was that was a great postmark. Um, I thought you were going to end it with you're all fired. I, and that is like, I mean, part of it is whenever a new technology comes along, society freaks out and say, well, what are humans going to be needed for? It's like, if you don't need humans to shovel the shit anymore, like what are we useful for? Well, we found something else to be useful for. Yeah. What are we going to be useful for? If AI takes all the creativity or the creative jobs or the, the knowledge, the knowledge jobs. Cause that's what it's going after right now too. It's not going after the, the, the blue collar jobs really right now. Your plumber's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or the people who are doing real high end coding or anything like that. Yeah. It's not going after that. What are the rest of us supposed to do? I personally believe that like scarcity never disappears. It just gets displaced. Right. Right. So it's like anytime a technology is invented that solves scarcity in one place, it creates scarcity somewhere else. And so what I've been asking myself is like, where is the new scarcity? Right. So, if essentially knowledge is, is, is universal and immediate, like if everybody in the world has access to all human knowledge, more or less instantaneously, knowledge is no longer the scarcity, which is great. It's all like, that's a massive unlock for humanity. But then it forces the question, where is the new scarcity? And I have a lot of ideas on this. I do think human connection, in-person human connection is going to go up in value quite a bit. I think we're probably entering a world where most like anytime we have to do anything involving any sort of creativity or information whatsoever, we're going to be on a screen. I mean, we already are to a certain extent, but I think it's only going to be more so. And, and I think it's just the, the in-person sense of community and connection is the premium is going to put on that is going to go through the roof. And so if you just think about things like, I don't know, clubs, yoga classes, uh, fitness groups, um, you know, basically anything, uh, you know, events, concerts, anything, any excuse to get people in a room together doing the same thing at the same time, that's the new scarcity because everything's, everything's going to be available everywhere for being next to another human being. Like that is the only thing that's not going to be scaled infinitely for everybody. But like, I don't know, there, there are, there's a lot of debate within like AI researchers of, of, you know, how creative can they get? Like right now they're just kind of reshuffling and regurgitating human information. And so any, any apparent creativity is just an illusion created by like just remixing previous human information. Um, so I, I, I don't know. I don't know. So what do you think, what should people be most concerned with? I think, um, Like what's the, what is the biggest danger for the average person? Sure. It's just saying, we're not talking about like AI coming in, you know, taking over the world and enslaving us or anything unnecessary like that. But within, you know, the near to medium term future, what should be our biggest concern around it? The biggest concern should be not being aware of it. Like if you are, I'd say if you're, unless you are at the end of your career, like I'd say anybody under 55 or 60, like you gotta be using this stuff. Because it is, it will eventually come for your industry. It's coming for ours first. Yeah. But it's going to come for everybody's at some point. And so at least if you're aware of what it is, how to use it, you'll have a fighting chance essentially. Like, or you'll, you'll know how to adapt. Like I think what will happen in a lot of industries, and I do think this will happen in ours as well, is that like AI is not going to replace you and me. What it'll do is it'll make you and me much more effective, right? It'll make us, it'll make it easier to scale ourselves, right? So it's like, instead of taking three days to produce, you know, a podcast outline and a script, it will take 30 minutes, right? And so we could potentially produce 10 times more podcasts with the same amount of time and effort. And it's just because it's people who know how to use it well are going to be 10 times more effective. So if you have 10, 10 engineers in an AI world, it's the best engineers just going to, they're just going to let the nine worst ones go. Yeah. One of those, just an example of this, I think it was just the other day you came to me and you, you had some research project and you showed me the output of this and something like 42 sources, something like that. Deep research. It was deep research. Okay. It's 42 resources or something along those lines, 40 some resources. It gave you a bias score for each one of them. Yes. It gave you a summary of each one of them, kind of the quality of that research, all of this. You told me it took eight minutes. I took one look at that and I told you that would take me a week working on it full time. Yep. So if, yeah, if you're sleeping on this. Yeah. You know, you hired me 10 years ago, a little over 10 years ago now, you wouldn't have hired me back then. I don't think my job, you wouldn't, I wouldn't have been necessary. Yeah. No context for listeners. I hired Drew's as my first research assistant 10 years ago, former PhD student in neuroscience. And yeah, open AI, deep research gave me a research summary as good as no offense. Anything. Yeah. Anything you've produced. I saw it and I'm just like, I. Anything you've produced in eight minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, it's insane. And it's like every month there's something new like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what I walked away from though, from that conversation we had about that was not to like freak the fuck out. Yeah. Like I think a lot of people are right now. It's more to understand that, oh, this frees me up. I got to figure something else out new, which is what we have to do every single time. Yes. We have a big technological innovation. Feel the AGI. Yeah. Yeah. The AGI deep, deep inside you. And we will get there. The deep research inside you. All right. On that note, we'll be right back. All right. We're back. What I want to know, Drew, is when is an AI going to be able to like sit in this hot fucking room and shoot for me? I mean, at the rate things are going. I've got a very comfy. I've got a very comfy bed that needs me to be in it. You'd go crazy. You would go insane. I would. That wouldn't help at all. That's true. It is true. We're going to have to figure out what to do with it. Anyway. Anyway. The questions this week. Question. This one comes from Naomi. It's a three word question, Mark. Okay. Can people change? The perennial question. I mean, obviously we're sitting here. Yeah. Opining on all of these different. You know what I love too, is that 90% of the time, the person who asks this has nothing to do with themselves. It's because there's some shithead in their life. Oh, I hadn't thought about that. That they love and care about. I hadn't thought about that. And have like run their run out of patience. And they're just like, is there any point in still trying? This is, it's a simple question. It's, there's, it's a, it's a very deep and complex answer. Literally thousands of years of philosophy and science going on this. Yeah. Yeah. My personal view is that it will, first of all, it defined, it depends on how you define a person. So there are certain things that generally don't change, right? There are certain kind of inherent personality traits that don't really change. They'll change a little bit over the course of your entire life, but like on a day to day, month to month, year to year basis, they, they don't really shift a whole lot. So like if you are a very detail oriented person, um, there is probably not a world where you are not a detail oriented person. If you are, uh, an extremely extroverted person, there's probably not a world where you're not an extroverted person. Um, there's, there's a handful of personality traits that seem to be just kind of baked into us, um, through some combination of genetics and upbringing, uh, that by the time we're an adult, that's just kind of who we are. And we have certain tendencies and proclivities and preferences that just don't really go away. So there's that, there's like that component of it. That said, our beliefs can change. Our attitudes can change. Our behavior, sure as shit can change. Uh, our thoughts and ideas can change, right? So it really depends on what you mean by a person. So there are a number of things about them that are probably not going to shift, but those things are not determinant, right? Like I can be a very detail oriented person or I can be like a morning person that that's a preference. That's like a predisposition towards something. There are some people who are like, I don't know, I don't know. There are some people who are predisposed towards, uh, addictive behaviors. There are some people who are predisposed towards antisocial behaviors. There are some people who are predisposed towards being very altruistic and selfless, but those are predispositions. Those are not, those don't determine your thoughts, beliefs, and behavior. The thoughts, beliefs, and behavior can always be shifted. They can always change a sub version of this question or sub question. That is another version of this question. That's maybe even more important is can a person change if they don't want to change? Can a person change if they don't want to change? Oh, okay. Yeah. To that, I would say no. That's a more interesting question too. Yes. So sub question B, can a person change if they don't believe they can change? I would also say probably not. So there's like a few prerequisites, a few beliefs or mindsets that are like prerequisites to change as well. Um, that like, like if you don't want to change and if you don't believe you can change, then nothing else, arguments, environment, incentives, nudging, like none of that other stuff is really probably going to matter a whole lot. And then I guess there's a third sub question, which is like, can someone change because another person made them change? And to that, I would also say no. You think that's what they're actually asking? Potentially. Oh, okay. Oh, I've just noticed that it's a tendency. I've just noticed that over the years, I mean, there are a lot of that occasionally I will run into people who are like, can a person ever change? And they're referring to themselves because they've been trying so far, they're struggling and they've been in a bad spot for a long time and they're, they're feeling kind of hopeless. But like, in my experience, nine times out of 10, it's somebody who there's, it's either a partner or a family member or, or a child who like, they've just, they're like at their wits end. Yeah. They're at, they've tried everything. They don't know what else to do. And the tricky thing about those situations too, is that it's like often. It's our best attempts to help a person change or make a person change. Um, or is like subtly enabling their ability to not change. Right. You get those codependent relationships that, yeah, totally. Yeah. Cause there is a certain, like ultimately for a person to change, there needs to be, it needs to feel as it needs to feel like a good trade off to change, right? You'll never change if it feels like a bad trade off, like I'm not going to become a new type of person if I feel like I'm not going to change. I feel like the new person is worse off than my current version of myself. Right. And so what often happens is, uh, when, when a partner or a family member or a caregiver is constantly trying to fix things in the person's life or like help them figure their shit out, they are suddenly re they are subtly reinforcing to that person. Uh, well, if you change, you're going to lose all these perks and benefits that I'm giving you. Like you're not going to be able to stay here for free anymore and I'm not going to like, drive you to work anymore. I'm not going to like help you deal with your, you know, whatever anymore. And, uh, and so unconsciously that like removes incentive for the person to change. So it's a tricky, it's a very tricky thing. If you have somebody in your life who you really wish they would change, there's, it's, there's a very subtle dance that has to take place. Like if you're supporting them, you have to make sure that you're supporting them because they want to change. They want to change themselves and they believe they can change themselves. And if they don't believe those things or if they don't want to change, then your attempt to convince them to change or support them and change, uh, it's very, very likely it's going to backfire and make things worse. Yeah. I think the, the guests we've had on here who, uh, have struggled with addiction, I think would tell you something very similar, both on the codependency side, but also on the side of the recognizing that trade-off you were talking about that, like they needed that rock bottom. They needed to find that rock bottom. - Yeah. - To see that trade off. And so you can't, I think it was Novak, Brandon Novak, who said, you know, I wouldn't have wanted anybody to rob me of that process. Yeah. You know, and that's that process of finding rock bottom. Yeah. Um, which is a painful to watch from the outside. I remember reading rituals book. And one of the things that impressed me the most, uh, was his parents. Oh, when he was like deep in his throes with alcoholism and had just gone to jail and all this stuff, he like went to his parents' house or something and they shut the door on him. And they said, don't come back till you're sober. And it's got to be the hardest thing to do as a parent. I can't even imagine. Like I remember reading that. I remember reading that and I was like, God damn cold props to his parents, man. Like really props to his parents. Uh, that like, that's, that's incredible because I think most, most family members are not able to do that. Right. And, and that's why you see all the enabling and the codependency and the, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. You, um, latched onto the word. People in those three, I latched on the word change. Like, what do you, what do you actually call it? What is the definition of interesting? So that's why the simple question has all these little rabbit holes you can go down. And I thought, well, what do you mean by change? There's behavioral change. Yes. There's, can you change your personality? You kind of, you alluded to that as well. Can you change your identity? Like I'm a loser, you know, can you change that thinking? Um, and then, you know, there's all this like around things like self-actualization, you know, that the humanists came up with. We, we appear to have this drive towards change. Yeah. Uh, and that we're seeking it, but is it actually what constitutes change in any of that? Because of behavioral change, if this environment changes and you didn't do anything about it, but yet you change your behavior around that. Is that change? Is that real change? Is that the kind of change you're talking about? I mean, you've changed your behavior. Sure. This is a really good question because I run into this, um, especially with like the woo crowd out here in LA. There's so many people I know out here who, you know, they do all the, their spiritual journey stuff and retreats and seminars and have a shaman and a guru and psychedelic, you know, the whole nine yards. And every time I see them, they like swear on their life. They have like, they're completely transformed. They're like, Oh my God, Mark, you wouldn't believe I went to Costa Rica and I did this whole like shaman thing. And like, I'm a completely transformed person. And then I asked him like, okay, cool. Like how's life going? How's business going? How's, you know, how's your life going? And he's like, I don't know. I don't know. How's, you know, your relationship going? And it's all the same shit. It's all the same shit. And I'm like, okay, so what changed? And I think that it's a really, it's a really interesting question because, and maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but like my bias is that if you, if your behaviors are the same, I don't think you really changed. Like you, it's kind of like it's putting lipstick on a pig, right? Like you don't, you don't, you could see your life differently, but if your behaviors are the same and the problems are the same, then in my mind, you haven't really changed. So I guess my definition of change would be behavioral driven or I would actually say it's problem driven. So like, it'd be one thing if, if, and this has happened a couple of times, like some of these people, like they'll come back from their, like whatever, whatever retreat. And there'll be like, you know, I thought this was a problem in my life, but now I've, I actually see that it's not, you know, or that I've changed my perspective or I I've shifted my values and I'm okay. Like, you know, with whatever. So if the pro, if the perception of a problem has shifted, then I would say that is a change, right? So the behavior around a problem changes or the perspective around a problem changes, I would say that's a change. But yeah, if, if neither of those things have changed, then yeah, you'd be hard pressed to say you've really changed it for one of those two things. Your mind, your mind hasn't changed. Your behavior hasn't changed or both. Well, and, and I think this is, this also ties into, cause I think what a lot of those people experience and this, this is actually, this is a common knock on therapy as well, is that what is probably changed is their perception of themselves. Right. Right. So it's like, I could go to a therapist, you know, so this, this used to be the big criticism of like, uh, like Freudian, therapy, right? It's like, you can go to a therapist and you can like learn all this crazy shit about your childhood and all this, how your, your mom was actually kind of a terrible person and all this stuff. But then you still have to go back to your life and all the problems and dysfunction in your life. It's like still there. Nothing's changed. You haven't done anything differently. Right. And so like, that was always the big criticism of like that old school Freudian stuff. Um, and I think there's a little bit of that in the self-help world, you know, it's like people will go, they'll go like do some sort of do a bunch of psychedelics and lay around and some kind of meditation, meditation, whatever. And they'll get some sort of insight into themselves and like a greater understanding of like, Oh, this is why I'm this way. Or like, this is why I always feel like this. Maybe I should chill out. But, and I think that insight to them feels like a, a profound change when really it's just a change of self-knowledge or self-perspective. Um, and I guess by my definition of change, if the problems are the same and the behavior is the same, then like nothing really changed. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think you've changed in your life? And you can't say your health stuff because we already know about that. That was gonna be too easy for you. What do you think you've changed? I can give you an example for mine too. I'll just give you a quick example of what I thought of. Sure. I've become much less reactive in my relationships, especially things that used to set me off. I've been able to like be more mindful and catch myself. Yeah. Be like, okay, what's the best reaction here? Um, things that come up now that would have just like sent me off earlier. I've been able to really like really step back and be like, okay, what's the best for the relationship here? Not what's the best for my little ego boost that I mean, I really do think I've been able to do that. And that's just been within the last couple of years, honestly, the last few years that I've gotten a lot better about that sort of things. To me, that feels like a big change. Yeah. And I think it's also reflected outwardly as well. Yeah. So has that caused you to behave differently in your relationships? Yeah. A hundred percent. Oh, okay. Oh yeah. I feel just so much more like secure in my relationships now too. That, um, whether it's friends, romantic, whatever. Sure. Um, where I can kind of step back and instead of being so judgmental, like I really had to work on that though. Yes. Um, I, I felt like that was a change for me and it's, it seems minor in the moments, but then you step back and you're like, oh, that changed the whole trajectory of a relationship or that, you know, I look back on moments that I had where a relationship fell apart or something. And I point to certain moments and I'm like, oh, if I would have just handled that differently, it probably would have, the whole relationship could have gone different. Yeah. So, yeah, I think this is probably a good insight is that I think at some point in the last five years, I had the insight that like I have a novelty addiction in my brain and that has driven most of my bad decisions throughout my life. It's driven a lot of good decisions as well, but it's most of the poor decisions that I've made over the, over the years or problems that I've created for myself. Over the years, it's been driven by that constant need for novelty and that constant, um, dissatisfaction from it. Uh, and so it, that realization, that realization by itself, I did not change, but that realization sparked change by me being much more conscientious about like taking fewer trips, saying no to more business opportunities, focusing more on showing up for friends, you know, being more consistent in like my community and the people I know. And like, you know, it's, it's, it's a conversation like my wife and I've been having a lot the past two years. Cause I think she and I are just both kind of bad at it. It's like, show up for a little thing. It's the stuff you're really good at. It's like, show up for the little things. Like they add up and they really matter. And those are the things that old Mark would be like, well, that's boring. Like that's not novel. So, you know, let me know when there's a wedding or something, cause then I'll make time. Right. But then it's like, I've got like some cool trip or I'm going to go do this thing in Dubai or something, you know, and like, and I wouldn't be there. And I think it took enough, like I had to age enough to like pay the price for that. You know, you, you have to go through enough of life and go through enough years to see the accumulation of all those small decisions and realize that like, oh, okay. I actually kind of fucked myself here. And like a lot of the problems that I'm experiencing today, it's a result of like lots and lots of small bad decisions over the course of the last five or 10 years. And so I'd say the last two years has really been me trying to correct that. And I'm trying to be like way more conscious and focused on where I spend my time, both in terms of people and then also in terms of like endeavors or hobbies or whatever. And yeah, it's like, sometimes I get a little into the novelty vortex, you know, I can like feel like, well, you're, you're never going to change that. Exactly. That's so that's a perfect example. Like that, that desire for novelty, it's never going to go away. I'm always going to have that. What changes is my ability to manage it. Right. Right. It's like the, the behavior that it produces, right. The output that happens in terms of like my behavior and my beliefs and my commitments. So that's probably been the biggest one. Yeah. And that's kind of where I've landed on all of this too, is that those are, there probably are things that aren't going to change or at least not change very much about you, but the way those are expressed can be changed. It's kind of like, well, how do you channel your introversion or extroversion or your novelty seeking versus your comfort seeking? Yes. Like those can be changed. And, and I think so many people get mixed up because they try to change the disposition. Like they try to change their personality. I want to be a new person. Yeah. They're like, I don't want to be an introvert anymore, or I don't want to be an anxious person anymore, or I don't want to, uh, you know, need so much of a routine anymore. And it's like, sorry, but like, if that's how you've always been, you're probably always going to be that way. Like I it's funny. And it's like, I think people resist that idea, but I have actually found that like, if you can kind of stay at point, like I've had conversations with people before where like, they've kind of come to me and they're like, man, I'm an anxious mess. I'm really having a lot of problems. Like, how do I deal with this? And I'm like, well, you know, tell me about, tell me about it. How, you know, how did this start? How did it, well, it turns out they've always been an anxious mess their entire life. Right. And they're just like, I'm sick of it. I don't want to be this way anymore. And I'm like, well, I got bad news for you. Like you're an anxious person. That's just life. Like everybody's got a thing. You know, some people struggle with it. Some people struggle with it. Some people struggle with anger. Some people struggle with depression. Some people like I'm a depressive person. I fall in the depression. I think much easier than most people. My wife is a very anxious person. She worries about stuff much more than most people. You were saying that you, you get triggered and fly off the handle. Like, you know, some people get angrier, much easier than some, like we've all got our thing and it's like, you don't change the thing. You change the reaction to the thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, that can, it's a slow process. I think the other thing about change, you have to, um, just be willing to accept and sign up for is the, just the slow grinding nature of it. And what else are you going to do though? To, you know, like that's, that's life. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I would ask for the wisdom of the week, but the last time you gave us that, I don't have any dirty jokes. No more Willie, Willie Nelson jokes. I don't know. No Willie Nelson jokes. All right. Wisdom of the week from Maya Angelou. I can be changed by what happens to me, but I refuse to be reduced by it. That sums up a lot from today. Well, the AGI has penetrated us all this episode until next week. Please like and subscribe to the episode, um, before we all lose our jobs and, and sign up, sign up for the weekly newsletter, which is not written by AI. Uh, it is a, every Monday I send out one idea, one question and one exercise to help you have your next breakthrough. Um, it's at markmanson.net slash newsletter. Uh, feel free to email us questions at podcast at markmanson.net. And, uh, I guess we'll be back next week. The subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica choice, our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening. And we will see you next week.