Mastering Custom Framing with Jim Miller

Hello everybody, today I am interviewing my good friend and my mentor Jim Miller and we're going to talk about a few topics here that I outline Jim. How are you? I'm doing very well. Thank you, both. A long time no see. It's been a while. Yeah, sir. Yes, sir. All right. So let's get started. Give me a little introduction about who you are. For people who are new to the industry. Yeah, the old time has definitely no you give me some introduction about who you are for the new time for the new people who joined the the framing industry. Okay. Technically I'm retired. I still do some mentoring and some consultations. I still do very limited classes, small groups. And I started framing in 1988 with a brick and mortar store. And when I signed a lease for the store, I had no idea how to build a picture frame. But I had been a calligrapher for 20 years and I had a previous career in industrial electrical equipment. So I had a pretty good skill set developed to do the framing work. And I got off to a good start sold the business in 2015. So I technically owned the storefront for 28 years and was moderately successful. It was a good business for me. How are we all fun? We're in Pickerington, Ohio. Ohio. Yeah. It's central Ohio. So what made you decide to leave your career, your previous career and get into picture framing? I was bored with it. And I had been studying calligraphy and practicing calligraphy for like I said 20 years ever since college. And I wanted to get in 1988, I wanted to be a professional calligrapher. Yeah. So I thought, well, this may be great. I'll open a frame shop and I have frame or work in the back. And I'll have my drawing board set up in the window and I'll do calligraphy there for the public. And that worked real well for about a year. And then everybody got computers and nobody bought calligraphy anymore. That business just went. I see. I went in the back room and started framing and realized I really, really liked it. And the rest is just 28 years of fun and frolic. I studied all the PPFA. Literature that was available. I bought every book I could find. I attended every class I could find. I did a lot of experimentation with my own stuff, nut customers property, of course. Yeah. And the learning curve continued through all those years. So it's not ending. It's the not ending learning situation is this isn't there's no end to it. If you think you know nothing, you don't know enough. It's a good segue. You read all these books that we talked about, but you also written your own books and I own several of them. You want to tell me about that would lead you to write these books and what books have you read? Well, I wanted to start exposing myself to other framers. So I was going to trade shows and PPFA meetings locally and regionally. And I thought, well, gee, I can teach a class. So I did I put together the complete guide to shadow boxes and framing objects. That was my first class. And it turned out to be a three hour lecture and a three hour workshop. And it was very successful. I taught that class for 20 years at the West Coast Art Braim show and Atlanta and a couple of times in New York. Before they gave up those venues. And my book first book, the complete guide to shadow boxes and framing objects was based on that class. And it's it's been a good book. I've had a lot of good reports for it. The sales are still good. You can buy the book for me through my website or you can buy it from the PFM bookstore or the PPFA bookstore. And it's Jim Miller online. calm. What were Jim Miller online.com? I have it on the screen. If you guys are watching on screen, but if you're on the podcast, it's Jim Miller online. What are we? All right. So we've got all that stuff. So if people want to contact you, they can also contact you through the website. Is there a contact page? Yeah, you can contact me through the website. And if you want to email that maybe easier, it's art frame it at gmail.com. Arc frame it at gmail.com. Okay. I'm going to try to put that on the screen so people get to see that. All right. So Jimmy, this is some innovative stuff. And one of the most most impressive things, at least to me, is your platform mount technique. Did you invent that and tell me tell me what a platform mount is for people who don't know. So we can describe that. Oh, yes, several. The platform out. It's it looks like an ordinary mount with a mat has several mat. And here's how that works. Well, I have a video about this too on my website. We okay. We have a window mat. It doesn't have to be a multi window mat. It just has to have two. We do. And you cut out a window in the bottom mat. That is the size of your document here. Right. Plus one half of 1% on an 8 by 11 document. That's about a 16 inch or less of a lot. So that's that's to allow expansion and contraction. And then you take the fallout from this opening and tape it back in using two or three layers of tape under the hand so that the platform sticks out from the from the mat a little bit. Because you don't want to crowd the document. You want it to be able to expand and contract freely. So you put the platform back in and then you hinge that to a backing board, which can be mat board, phone board. Whatever you want this backing board would not come in direct contact with whatever it is you put in the platform. Only the conservation or museum grade board would come in contact with it. And then you open this and you're kind of hard to do with without a table. So what Tim is doing with Jim is doing is demonstrating how it's done. And if you go to the website, you get to see a video. He says there's a video you can watch there. Yes, there is a video. This is this is I tell you I told you what a phone. This was the life and changing a situation for me when I learned this from you. I took one of your classes. I'm like, wait, what? What? What? That was amazing. So I love it. It changed my life as a frame or two. It became very quickly. My favorite way to mount documents, photographs and plantings. And if you had a computerized mat cutter, it can be very efficient. Because I cut stock openings for eight and a half by 11, eight by 10, four by five, 16 by 20. And I kept those things under the bench. And what I need. I had your platform mouse. Sure. I see. I see. Sure. Sure. Pull out. Pull out. Tell me what led you to this to this finding or invention or or technique. I don't know what to call it. What led you to to to it? I wanted to find a way to mount two dimensional objects, the documents and photographs basically that would be completely reversible, non invasive. And what really led me to the the final product was a desire to make ready made frames for documents. I sold them traditionally. And I would today I'd be selling them online if I were still doing that. Sure. But I, here's, here's a design this so that. We have a just an ordinary frame with the double. It can show me a frame. Uh-huh. And we've got the instructions on the back here. Ah, how to play. Maybe. Yeah. You open the open the back of the frame. I've got turn buttons on these and on the on the budget minded document frames that I built. I used flexible fitting points. But on the on the conservation great things that are custom. I always use turn buttons and then. The process is quite simple. I showed you how the platform works. Yeah. Absolutely. But we have quite a bit information online about how to do that. In addition to the videos, there is a I taught a class on platform mounting at the trade shows for. Remember of years and I have a PowerPoint slideshow that goes with the video that I sell online. And here we can we can buy that we can buy that video from your website. Oh, yeah. Sure can. Nice. Nice. So. So what other mounting and preservation or what other techniques have you created or developed because I think you've done plenty. So maybe you want to tell us about those. Well, before we get past the platform out, I want to show you the latest. innovation. You lead us okay. Okay. All right. Till basically the same thing. but, sure, instead of having a platform, we use a piece of felt. This is ordinary 16-inch white polyester felt by an any fabric store, and you cut this to the size of the platform, or the size of your document, and then you glue that to the backing board, - Sure. - And when you put the document in place, the piece of felt serves the purpose of the platform. - Get out of here, let me see. - Okay, hang on a second, I'll show you. - That's cool. So you don't need to really, I see you, right? Uh-huh. - Now, this is-- - This is backwards. - I do. (laughing) - Yeah, it's, okay. There we go. Yeah, that's it, right there. Now, this is perfect for ready-made frames, where people want to take them home, put a document or a photograph in, and I sold these things to some businesses that had certificates and registration forms that were replaced periodically, and they could open their frames and replace the documents with no tools, essentially. - That is amazing. I like that a lot. (laughing) - That worked out really well. - What do you call that? Felt the platform money? - Yes, that's a soft platform mount. - Yeah, there's a name for it, a soft platform mount. I like that. - Yeah, yep. - What else you got? - That's described in the video too. Well, what is here? There's more on the platform mount. It goes beyond just-- - So what Jim just showed us here, he had a platform mount, but instead of having, you know, a little trap door, he had a piece of felt that held the document in place. Right, he just shut the knot over it, and it's not gonna go anywhere because it's felt. You use a piece of felt in place of the platform that you would normally hinge. Now, you can use the platform mount for double-sided framing too. See, we've got this, we close that, and we've got both sides. - What's holding those in place? Is it double-sided paper or is it two different artworks? - Well, no, no, it's just one artwork. And what we've done here is how to platformat, as usual, about half an inch, excuse me, one half of 1% larger than the document itself, and for the platform that comes out of that, we cut another opening in it. So it's the platform with an opening. You see this? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, and what you do is you put your document in here, and in the platform, as usual, and you put the platform on the window that's on the back. - And when you close it, that's what you get. - Okay, let me see what the back shows. - That looks the same on both sides. - Sure. - There's no difference. - Yeah, let's get in. - You could also use the platform mount for multiple openings, like vacation photos, things like that. - What does the back of that look like, Jim? - The back of that looks like this. - Oh, it's several, so you'll start each chapter or kind of thing. - Exactly, okay. - Individual platforms, and that's really easy to do with a computerized met cutter, but if you don't have one of those, or you're not sure about the spacing, you can cut the window mats as you normally would, and then make individual platform mounts, like this, with a quarter inch outer piece. You glue these to the back of your window mat, using double-sided tape, I use a fillet tape, - Sure. - And you've got the window, and you've also got the platform that's hand, as usual, it's just in a miniature size. - Looks great. For people listening to this, you wanna watch the video, I don't know how to describe it, but it looks good. He's putting a little small piece in the back of the opening, and that looks pretty good. Okay, Jim. - It works fine. - Oh, you've done the platform mounts? - Tell them the platform mounts? - Yep, don't worry. - Tell me about other techniques that you've developed, because you've developed a lot of stuff. - Well, one of the most popular things are probably the most useful is the formed rod mounts. Now, you like my violin? I carry this at the trade shows for 25 years. Jim, there was a history behind it. You told me the story I forgot. What was the story about this violin? - Well, it's hanging on the wall in my dining room here. My mother-in-law had a violin that she played when she was in elementary school, and she had sheet music to run with it. And I thought, "Che, that'd make a great display at home." So, I wanted to be able to take the violin out and put it back. And, what made you turn this around? - I'm gonna show you what it looks like. I think I can turn. - Sure. - Is Galgavina shot? - Nope. - Nope. Ah, there you go. - There it is. Can you see it? - I see it. So, that's her violin from her elementary school? - Yep. - That's it. - Yeah, this gives me a great idea. My daughter, she does violin, and when she's done with whatever schooling, maybe I make a frame for her, 'cause she really loves that stuff. - Sure, you could. And the first thing I did was construct the mounts so that they could be taken off very easily. See, there's two mounts there, and they're flexible. They flex a little bit, see? So that you can put the violin in there and flex the mount to hold it in place, like this. - So you can always make it think of that. - Sure, you can always take it out and put it back, and you can elevate the instrument off the background. As you can see here, it's not only elevated, it's mounted at an angle. - Sure. - A compound angle. - That looks really nice. - Yeah, it worked out very well. It doesn't quite a number of those. And it works well for tools, musical instruments, lots of three-dimensional objects that have hard surfaces. It is a point mount. That is, it doesn't cover much ground. You've got little wires that go over the edges of the item. And a variation of that is what I call a plate mount. And it's kind of hard to tell, but there's one here. - I see it, yeah. - One here, and there's one here. And if you turn this over. - So Jim has shown us here a plate with the wires, yeah. But plate mounts are really easy, if you think about it a little bit. We've got these formed rods that go from the edge of the plate about three inches in. And then I strung a picture hanging wire. Among all three of those, and-- - On the back of the plate. - Yep, on the back of the plate, and I twisted it so that they're under tension. - Sure. - See that? - Put a hanging wire on it. (laughing) Do you see this plastic here? - Yeah, yeah. - Yep. That's polymorphic material. It's a plastic material that you can form, it comes in pellet form or sheet form. And if you heat it in water or with hot air, it softens and you can form it. So I just formed it to service pads on each of the mounts and where each of the wire twisting intersections was, I wanted to cover those things up so there wouldn't be any chance of poking fabric or poking fingers, you know how picture hanging wire is kind of sharp. - So that-- - This is also something I cannot describe on audio, so you got to watch the video part of that. - Yes. - All right, let's see that Jim. (laughing) - Let's see here. - This episode is sponsored by Framing POS. I've been a picture framer since 1993 and own a Framer Shop in New York City. So I know firsthand what it takes to run one. That's why I built Framing POS. A point of sale system made just for picture framer. It makes managing your Framer Shop easy. Check it out at FramingPOS.com. - Let's talk about the direct contact overlays. - The direct contact over K? - Yep. The first one was the golf ball. And I came onto this when I was doing Framing for a golf gift shop across town and we used a piece of three inch PVC, cut just a little bit deeper than the ball. The cut around opening and this kind of looks like the ball of the cup, doesn't it? - Yeah. - On the golf course. - Well, the way that's mounted is pretty simple. And you get a piece of nylon tool. You cut a round hole in the mat that's a ball smaller than the ball. I think that the opening is an inch and eight. And so the ball goes through and protrudes on the back of the mat. Then you get a piece of tool and you wrap it like a lollipop, like a sucker. And you pull it. - Tim, if you're not looking close enough, you know, not even gonna see the tool when you hang it up in a frame. - No. - Yeah, I can barely see it on video, yeah. - Very intrancipatory. It's even right up close, it's hard to see. And then I thought, gee, that's great. So I tried it on a tennis ball and that didn't work. However, there's-- - Why didn't it not work? - Because you could see it. - I see, okay, okay. - The fuzzy surface of the tennis ball allowed the mesh of the tool to embed. And it really emphasized its weasier. So there's another product called Craypline, or Craypline, C-R-E-P-E-L-I-N-E, which is a very fine mesh French organe fabric. And it made out of silk, silk fine mesh fabric. And that works pretty much the same way as a tool. And I stuck it on the back and you pull the loose ends tight on the back to cover the ball without wrinkles. - You have Craypline on this guy now? Can I see it close up? On the tennis ball? - Looks great, nice, okay, thank you. - On the back, it looks like that. You can see the material there. It's very fine. - Yeah, okay. - Very fine material. - Jim, I got a question. So how do you come up with this stuff? (laughing) - So it comes from you to dream. (laughing) - They're very innovative. And they solve a very specific problem that we all have, right? - Well, yeah, that's true. Another thing I wanted to do was find a way to mount books and magazines without damaging them. So that you could show the edges. I wanted all the edges to be visible all the way around, including the binding edge. And you can elevate this off the backing if you want to. But this is what I call the b-tool. The book mount, and it's in the shadow box book, it consists of two sheets of Mylar D, clear polyester film. Mylar D, mylar D, mylar D516, host of fun, 43 SM, but you cut one leaf of the Mylar as wide as the book. And about twice as long. It slips under the cover. And you run the ends of that through horizontal slots at the top and the bottom of the book. And that's what actually holds the book in place. See that? - Looks great. Yeah, I love it. - And it's awesome. - And to keep the cover from flapping open, this is just a paper magazine, to keep the cover from flapping open, you put another piece of Mylar horizontally around the benton net and attach it to itself on the back of the book. So you've got the cover covered and you've got it suspended using the vertical piece. - That's what you can do to send in a book, on a Bible, on pretty much anything. - Well, in fact, the first project I did with that with was a leather bound family Bible that was about the probably 11 by 14, something like that is big. - I would at least wait. - And two. - Yeah, yeah. It was very old. It was about an inch to the average, a inch to six. It was very fragile. The leather had deteriorated. The binding was shot. And but I wanted to put it all together and using the book mount with that horizontal piece of Mylar going around it and it all was held together. There was no need to restore the binding, it would have been a good idea, but the customer said, "No, I want to leave for the way it is." So I framed it using the book mount and I loved it. Worked out real well. - These are so clever. We use them all the time in OSHABS. - Yeah, yeah, it's quite a useful thing. And then we have the spider mounts. Can you see this? - Yep, I could. - Okay, that's a round piece of Mylar. Actually, you could cut the shape of any medallion or coin or anything like that. Here's another variation of that. And here's an example of the spider mount in use. In fact, this is the same size as this. And what you do is you trace the shape of the metal or chemical coin, whatever you want to mount on a piece of scrap mat board and you tape a piece of Mylar on it that is about an inch and a half or so bigger. And you, using an exact oblade, you cut around the shape to cut out the shape and on four or five locations around this shape create legs, something like the way paper dolls are. - Spider. - And then you fold those through slots in the backing board and attach them to the back. And it looks something like that. - See that? - That looks great. That looks really good, yeah. - Yeah. - So we call that a spider mount, huh? - Yep, that's a spider mount. And then there's the coin mount, which is a variation of that, except that this is really easy. We've got double-sided mats and we attach the Mylar to the back using double-sided tape all over. You want that Mylar to be very tightly secured there. And there's another piece of Mylar on the other side of the coin. So the coins are actually held in place by pressure between these two pieces of Mylar. - Oh, the mats are not functioning as a mount at all then, right? They're just, oh, they're nice. - Looks nice. - You've got two sheets of Mylar that are holding pressure on the coins. - Very nice. - Yep. - How many coins have you put in a single sheet, Jim? - Oh gosh. - That probably doesn't. - Yeah, you could have done that. - Yeah, if it gets too heavy, you just split it into another unit, another unit, correct? - Oh yeah, sure. - It's easy to add. All you need to do is cut the openings of the mat, two mats, double-sided mat, and then use two pieces of Mylar. It's very simple to do. - I love it. - I love it. - This is a great stuff. - Yep, you have to be careful about the thickness of the coins though. If there's a lot of difference in the thickness of the coins, you'll have a problem. Because those two pieces of Mylar have to be attached so that they kind of form a sandwich. And if the coins are various thicknesses, the sandwich won't be very tight on the thin ones. Does that make sense? - I understand. - Sure. - Let's see what else we got here. Oh, other variations. Look, I've got some things here. I wanted to show six ways to mount some three-dimensional objects. I just use these ballpoint pens. And this, what we have over here, a cable tie. - Sure. - That's an electrical product. It works very nicely. And you can get them in colors. There's one up here. There's one down there. We've got, what do we have here? Easy touch, which is from the attached easy lady. And that works really well. There's on the back. Next to that, I mounted using picture framing wire that I had untwisted. We've got little twist of that on the back. - So you got a single strand out of it? Is that what you did? You took a picture frame wire and you twist it to a single strand, they see. - Take a single strand. Of course, if you're mounting something's very heavy, you'd have used more than one strand because in single strands, it's not very strong. And here we have a mylar sleeve. - Oh, I like that. - Sure. - Yep. And the pen goes right back in. And then here we have, oopsie, no. Formed rod mounts over here. Very secure. If you wanted about a hammer or a monkey ranch, something like that, you could do that with the form rod mounts and be very secure. - Looks great, looks great. Okay, what else we got? - Well, more on the form rod. - You have to watch this part on video because I don't know how to describe that. It's cool stuff. - Well, we have customers bringing in vacation stuff and some of those kind of fragile like a sand dollar. See that? - Sure. - How do you mount a sand dollar? Well, you glue it. But if it gets a good bump, the glue can come loose because the sand dollar surface is, it's powdery. It's not very sturdy. So I covered it with crepe line and glued it on the back. And that's just a fabric wrapping, basically. See that? I cut the backing board a little bit smaller than the, now if you don't carefully, you can see the crepe line in the openings here and not just over here. But not over here, but where there's a deep recess, you can see it. But that works well. These are items, again, very fragile and glueing them is kind of risky because if it gets bump or drop, it'll come loose and you'll break the item. They break the object. But on the back, you can see we have, of straps, but they're not. made out of mylar this time they're made out of Cripply and they are just almost invisible. There's. I can't see at all. Now, well, there's one there. There's one there and there's one there. And over here, there's one there and well maybe you could see this one. That I can see, yeah. Yeah. This has traveled to a lot of trade shows since been on the planes of UPS has not been kind over the years. So these Cripply will stretch a little bit and as you can see these are loose and some but they're still secure. There's no problem there. I like that too. And what else I got? Oh, enclosures. I mentioned the violin was the the genesis of the forbrod mount and I mentioned also that I wanted to be able to take the violin out and put it back. Well, that turned out to be what we now call gravity groove. Gravity groove, okay. Gravity groove. You need two frames to do this and I can't do it that way but you can you can remove the acrylic. You needed a acrylic box and two frames one inside the box and one outside the box and it goes together this way. That looks good. Yeah. Just like that. There you go. And the restriction going to hold it up when you hang up that frame. It's fishing. Hold that in place if you hang up the frame. Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, you have to secure the frame to the wall so I can't move around. Security hangers or I use half inch by two inch mending plates as sort of both security hangers. They're secure. More secure than a typical two-point hanging system or wire. But the one thing you need to know about a gravity groove is that the box has to rest on the top of the inside frame. If you rest on the inside of the bottom frame, the box will fall open. Looked on the top of the frame. The box has to hang at the top of the frame. Looks great. So that's gravity groove and then another one I came up with is what I call the slip over like this. You put a put three-dimensional objects in there and this consists of a frame that's got glass or acrylic in it. How does that go off held in place? That's held in place with fitting points. I see. Okay. So you put a little piece of mat that I put in place. I see it, Sharon. I cut a half inch wide mat and put that in place with fitting points. These are the flexible fitting points. They call them multi points, I think. And then I built the inside frame out of a linen liner that's in and half deep with a nice matching backing board, and then back board. And goes together just like this. See this? I see. Yeah. They don't have to fit terribly tight. If you get them within a 16th of an inch, you're going to be just fine. And this. I like that too. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. The box literally lifts off the fixed frame to all. That's a slip over or a slider. So you can change the object or whatever that's on the inner frame and slip over frame. Yeah. Freclenary. Yeah. What else is that you? Well, there's the direct contact overlay is taken a lot of twists and turns over the years, which is why I wrote the book DCO Framing, direct contact overlays. You could make direct contact overlays using Mylar, which is the Clear Polyester Film, or fabric like the Crape Line I showed you, or you can use a acrylic, acrylic sheet, the same acrylic that you'd use for ordinary framing. But in this case, the object that you're mounting is in direct contact with the acrylic. You see that? Uh-huh. I see that. This was. This newspaper was from the time that Obama was elected in 2008. 2008. 2008. And I framed this. I framed this at the time and look at this. It's been around the more, what, uh, should, should, should, 17 years? Yeah. Something like that. Sure. And it's still a pretty good shape. Of course, it's some discolored somewhat, but it's not really as discolored as it would be if there were much oxygen in there. So there's nothing holding us in place. You just have friction between the back. This is heavy enough and floppy enough that I had to put something underneath the front page. And then there's there's a Mylar half a book mount that goes vertically to hold the new space in place. I see. Okay. I see. By the by the benefit of the four-ply board that's underneath the cover. And then the acrylic goes on top of that and holds it all in place. You can't see what's behind it. Now I see it. Now I see. Yeah. But it's it's not terribly obvious. See that? No. Yep. And this works really well. Customers love it. And if you use optium, if you use optium acrylic, the anti-reflection acrylic, and I always use UV filtering type. But if you use optium, you can't see it. It's it looks like that newspaper is just kind of floating there. But really well. I like that. Well, that's pretty much all I brought out for you. Yeah. Hey, I appreciate it. Look, you've you've innovated so much in this industry. You've contributed so much to this industry. And I appreciate it. And I want to thank you. You also helped me out personally when I had one of my staff who had an aneurysm. You took a couple weeks off. You and Gail drove over to New Jersey from Ohio and stayed at a hotel helping out. So, and very much. That was a learning experience for me too. You've got a you've got a great business going on there, Moe. I'm very pleased for you. Thank you. That was that was so kind of you to do. And I can't thank you enough. Well, Moe, you're an innovator in your own right. Aside from having a successful framing business in a very competitive market, you've also come up with a really good looking software program. We don't need to talk about that, but you've got your own. I'll give you a demo of it one day. I want to get your opinion about it. I want to give you a demo about it one day. I know you're tired and everything, but it'll be good to see your opinion about how it works. Oh, sure. I'd be glad to get I use software in my business for 28 years. But the point is you're an innovator too, Moe. I think there's a little bit of that in all of us. We just have to find ways to bring it out. Yeah. Yeah. Jim, is there any topics that I forgot to mention here that you'd like to discuss? Well, let's see. We covered the direct contact overlays. Anything. Doesn't have to be changed. For grunge. Well, no, that's pretty much the way it was. In terms of operating a business, I had two stores for a couple of years. And I had to be a business administrator, which was not terribly difficult because I have a degree in business administration and that work. But I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be a technician. I wanted to work in the back room. I wanted to have fun. So I put this scaled back to one store. And when the craft stores became popular in the late 90s, you know, Joanne, Michaels, Hobby Lobby, I had one of those stores, each of those three stores within a couple of miles of my shop. And if for those framers who were around during that time, you know how they decimated the small shop custom framing business. Yeah. And like everybody else, at first, I tried to compete by cutting my price, but that's a losing proposition. So I decided to do what they don't do, which was three-dimensional object framing and preservation framing. So because I build unique frames and higher quality frames that require greater expertise, those are things that they don't want to do or can't do. And that has kept my business quite healthy right up to the time I sold it. So there you go. That's a little bit of wisdom right there, right? So differentiate and things that cannot do. Yeah. That sounds great, Jim. I want to thank you for just being a good mentor, a good friend. And I want to also thank you for all your contributions that industry. It's my pleasure, Mo. I watch the framers only for them every day. And I've learned a lot there and it's great to see the conversations. Thank you, Jim. I appreciate it. Thank you.