Marqeta CEO on Embedded Finance Scaling Up

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to the Bloomberg Intelligence Tech Distraptor's podcast. I am Bik Shah Geera. I lead Fintech and Payments Research for Bloomberg Intelligence. We are Bloomberg's in-house research department with over 500 analysts, strategists and editors all across major global markets. I cover marketer for BI and I'm very pleased to have Mike Miller-Titch, the CFO and CEO of marketer with us in this episode today. Welcome, Mike. - Thank you so much for having me. - Well, Mike, you come with a very deep experience in payments and finance, having spent time at Visa, PayPal and American Express to now becoming the CFO and now CEO at Marketer. And Marketer itself has been evolving from a modern issuer processor to an end-to-end embedded finance platform. So, I mean, in your view, what does a modern card issuing platform need to bring to the table today to meet the market's demands and what are the legacy payment platforms really, where are they really falling short? - I would say, I would point to three things that really make modern platforms different and we think gives us a competitive edge in the market. So, first is flexibility, configurability. The legacy platforms that have been around, for several decades just don't have, aren't nearly as modular. And so, if you wanna make changes, usually it's gonna take a long time, versus Marquetta that's 100% API-based and cloud-based. We have almost 400 APIs and I like to think of them as Lego blocks that can be put together by our customers in unique ways. And that just gives them a flexibility that is hard to come by from some of the platforms that have been around a lot longer. The second area then with that flexibility comes a lot more control, that we can provide our customers that in the past had to be done by the bank. So, we give our customers the ability to not only embed the experience in their platform, their app, their software, but in many cases, we can even give them access to the authorization itself. So, rather than trying to write sort of business rules or business logic at the bank, we can bring them into the authorization flow to incorporate data to eliminate fraud in their business as an example. And then the third area is that modern platforms can do things in real time. So, we can assess information that's coming in and respond in milliseconds. And that allows you to do very dynamic things with customers that may be around offers and awards, but also could be used for things like instan issuance where I want to configure a card in a very specific way for you instantaneously and provision it into a digital wallet, for example, for you to do a certain type of purchase. And that's just something that modern platforms do well that is more challenging for legacy. - Yeah, and I can see the point where a lot of incremental business demand is coming from digital first businesses, but just to clarify for our generalist audience, an issuer processor is a company that handles the authorization settlement and card lifecycle management. It does a real time decision whether a card transactions approved or decline, versus where you are evolving into an embedded finance platform that basically provides end-to-end financial products, speed cards, accounts, payments, lending, et cetera, all of that bundled into an API that non-financial brands can just directly plug into their apps, right? So think of them as a turnkey financial services layer for companies whose main business isn't finance. Mike, talk to us about what is driving that evolution from being a modern issuer processor to an end-to-end platform. - That's right, you said it very well. I was a great description, you know, managing payments, doing lending, other types of financial transactions are no longer limited to financial institutions and FinTechs really led the way. So they really showed what was possible for a non-bank to be successful with financial services. To some of the challenges that it happened in FinTech is you had to build that business from scratch and acquire all those users, which is quite expensive. What's changes in embedded finances, I already have a business, as you said, that's outside of financial services that I already have tens of millions of users. I just want to insert the financial service into that business or into that platform. And that's what makes it different than FinTech. The second thing that I would say is because they already have that established user base, a lot of times their goal is more about more deeply engaging that user base than it is to directly monetize the payment itself. So they want you in their experience more. They want to drive more value within that experience so that you use it more frequently and you're a more loyal customer. And so payments is just a component of that because one of the great things about payments is most people make at least one payment a day if not multiple. So if I integrate that into my business, then that means you're coming to my platform, my service very frequently and that's really more of their goal than just monetizing the payment itself. - Yeah, Mike, actually, this debate is very interesting. Like my background, I'm a banks analyst by in my past life. And one of the conversations that kept coming up was an in Asia where Google and Meta and all of these companies were starting to provide more payment services. I think one of the repeat reasons that came up in those conversations was just like controlling their entire end-to-end customer journey. So that, and obviously like what you just mentioned, so there's clearly a drifting or a shift in that kind of a mindset. But also we've seen so much change under this current administration, right? There is a lot more room for flexibility to kind of try out new things. But tell us like how is market a positioning itself to kind of evolve in this dynamic environment? - Yeah, I think the biggest change, if you went back, you know, five years, what Mark Keta really sort of was the first to do and really helped scale for the first time was providing this modern issue of processing and doing what's called program management, which is really the more the compliance aspects of running a card business because there are aspects to it that are heavily regulated for consumer protection reasons and things of that nature. And that's where we started. As we're moving more into embedded finance, we're becoming much more of a full stack solution where we're offering a lot of things in addition to that. So we're building a lot more value-added services. So think of that as risk and fraud capabilities, tokenization capabilities. We now have a white label app. So we can actually manage the front-end experience for you, make it look like your brand and your user experience you want, but we do that work for you. Banking and money movement capabilities. So different types of accounts. You want a commercial checking account or a consumer checking account. You want a high yield savings account. You want access to the RTP system, things of that nature to move money. So we're providing all those types of capabilities and we're doing it across our geographic footprint. So what really makes Mark Keta unique is we have all these modern capabilities, scale, geographic reach, and really the expertise to then deliver credit and debit, consumer and commercial in a very flexible way. And that's really what we bring to the market. And we think adds a lot of value for our customers. - Well, I mean, there is really no debate that embedded finance has found another growth leg recently, like even more so with the evolution of AI. And we hear about growing demand from platforms. So what type of enterprises do you think are actually ready to adopt embedded services today? - The early adopters, if you will, that we see coming to us are mostly digital first or digital native brands. So they already have very modern technology themselves. That is API and cloud-based. So working, connecting to technology in that way and just having their systems set up in a way that can utilize the fact that our platform can respond in real time and do things in a very flexible way. That's really the types of businesses we're seeing. And then within that more of a technology way of looking at it, I would say also from a user experience perspective, companies that tend to control the end-to-end experience. So they are, they're providing maybe a much broader capability than something that's just very narrow in like a vertical, for example. Those are the kinds of companies that then because they're already providing an end-to-end experience inserting more payment capabilities into that is a logical next step to again, drive that further engagement we already spoke about. So you don't make one question that I get asked all the time is what is new, right? Like you have the united credit card that a lot of people use all the time. Like how is this program what you're talking about different from say a simple co-branded card of the past? - Yeah, the biggest difference is that if you think about that some of the biggest co-brands, like you said United or Amazon, Costco, all those co-brands to manage it, you actually go to the banks app. So the way those are structured is you're a card holder for that and you're affiliated with that brand, but you're really a customer of the bank. You're not, that company is not offering it directly to you. - Actually, you're right, I always go to the city app to pay my Costco card bill. - That's right. And so, and a lot of that is that was, that's what was possible 20 years ago, right? They had to structure it that way, but the way technology is evolved in platforms like ours, we can allow the customer or the card holder to do it directly in that airline's app or that retailer's app so they now control the customer experience and the user experience. They're still a bank involved because there are certain aspects you want the bank to be part of, but you don't necessarily need them to control the user experience. And that allows you to then again drive engagement and embed it deeper into your core business. - I'm sure and all these non-bank companies would love to kind of take more part of that action, more part of that customer engagement on their platform as opposed to kind of let them go away, right? So tell us what verticals are growing the fastest in this space. - The two areas that I would say we see are seeing the most demand are marketplace businesses. So people who are bringing buyers and sellers together in some way, and this can be everyone, of course, thinks of certain large retail marketplaces, but there are a lot of sort of B2B like marketplaces that exist and what makes those companies particularly interested is because they have a two-sided ecosystem that they'd like to add value to both, right? They would, if you're more of a retail marketplace, I want to help my consumers, but an important part of my business is making sure that the SMBs who are on my platform thrive. And so how can I help that side as well? So that's one area and then the second area are B2B platforms. So think of this as verticalized software. So in many industries, there are software platforms that support a certain industry and they're quite specialized. And a lot of those businesses then want to incorporate real-time payment capabilities, AP automation, even things like, I want to be able to offer corporate cards and then manage all the expenses and billing all through in one integrated platform. So those are the two areas that I would say across both North America and Europe where we see the most demand. - Yeah, I think one fascinating change that a lot of people really don't appreciate is doing a corporate card used to be this massive big project and how democratized that has become especially with the advent of virtual cards and with platforms such as yours. So I mean, just looking at different segments, right? Like going into this, obviously, we're in the holiday season. There's a lot of chatter around holiday spending. We've heard there's been very strong performance across BNPL and that's a big category for you as well. So let's talk a little bit about that. So by now, pay later as, I mean, it's a lazy term, but that's what we call it now. So that has moved from like a niche offering to a more mainstream payments option. You'll see that across any and every e-commerce website. Now even in store, right? What do you see are some of the bigger forces that are shaping the next phase of BNPL growth? - That's right. We were one of the early innovators in this space. So we support all the largest by now pay later customers or all the bug by now pay later players or all customers of ours. And I would say the biggest change that's happening is that the advent of BNPL was more delivered through the merchant. So you were online only, right? And in checkout, there was a, you know, you saw that by now pay later companies bug, you know, and there was a checkout option. And so the merchant almost pulled it through their experience. And that's really how by now pay later got started. What we are seeing as shift now is it's becoming more consumer driven where the by now pay later companies are engaging the consumer directly and offering you a card. So a debit card that has by now pay later functionality built into it. So it's a feature of the card. So now I don't have to rely on every merchant I go to, do they, do they accept I'm an affirm customer? I'm a clarinet customer. Do they accept that or not or now I'm in store? How do I, but I would like to buy now pay later? How do I do that? Right? Those are all complicated previously. But what's happening now is now I give you a card, you know, a firm or clarinet issue you a card that you can pay in full or by now pay later. And that that shift from more of a merchant side value proposition to more of an issuing proposition with a direct relationship for the consumer. I would say that just got started about maybe two years ago and has really started picking up steam with the advent of flexible credentials that were initially started by Visa and now MasterCards versions coming out shortly. And that allows you to have one card that does both debit and transactional lending in it without changing the card itself. And that's a big change for the buy now pay later industry and is fueling a lot of the growth and wider spread adoption that you mentioned. Yeah, can I actually just give a nod to both Visa and MasterCards on that front and a little snippet here, right? When I looked at them from like a banking lens and when I looked at all the eight way accounts kind of coming through, I thought, okay, these companies are done like just the way payments are kind of moving. But then and I met a lot of fintechs who were like out there to replace the card networks, but just the level of innovation that has come out of these two companies is just amazing. And like now following them a lot more closer, like this is such a fantastic product where how they've taken card from a plastic to, you know, just a mode on how different business models kind of can get executed. So like big thumbs up on that innovation. But I mean, just to get a flavor of the scale of these programs, Mike, like let's discuss the Clarence card, right? So, I mean, besides the US, it's launched in like 15 new countries in Europe. It's doing really well. Can you talk about how this program evolved and what's different about it from like a regular credit card launch? - Sure. Yeah, I mean, the corner story is very fascinating. I would say it started with in the app, like all the buy now pay later companies started with a value proposition where you're in store, let's say you're in a Best Buy and you see a TV and you wanna buy it for $500 and you're like, I don't know if I can pay for that in full. And you could go into their app and say, I wanna make a purchase at Best Buy $500 and I wanna put it on an installment plan. Will you approve that? And if they said yes, then they would provision a virtual card to your digital wallet sort of instantaneously. And that was a value proposition we helped with. Then what started happening is at least for Clarence, last fall on October, we converted between four and five million of their debit cards in Europe from another platform onto ours across three countries. And so we had this carded base that started in three countries in Europe. And then in June of this year, they launched their Clarence One card, which then is this new flexible credential that is you can pay in full or buy now pay later with that card. And I think they announced there were millions of people on the wait list before it came out. So there was a lot of demand for this type of product. And now what they're doing is those three countries where they already moved to our platform last year, we're now converting that all to flexible credentials and rolling it out across 15 new markets, as you said. So it's really a triumph because for those people who are more familiar with card payments, rolling out a new product like this in 19 different countries in six months time is relatively unusual. That's not a feat that a lot of people would have accomplished, but that the innovation in the speed with which Clarence can move, combined with the modern technology platform that we have enables something like this to happen. And I think the early adoption numbers that Clarence has discussed, I mean, it's clearly a value proposition that resonates with consumers and it's getting rapid adoption. No, I think that is truly fantastic. The, can you explain that piece again to us? I think that is really powerful. The whole shift towards point of sale, that has been a big bottleneck for buy now pay later, right? Like everyone, using that app, going to a store, trying to pay life with that in the checkout line, for example, it's a nightmare. So talk to us about the virtual card issuing that you do in that moment and how do you facilitate that? Yeah, so how the flexible credential works is, the consumer can go into the app and either just say, well, I'm about to make a purchase and this one I would like to do with installments and sort of pre-select it. But what you can also do is set rules, so business rules. So you could say, well, when I'm making a purchase in grocery, for example, that I want to pay in full for. But if I'm making a retail purchase of a certain size, for example, then I would like that to be something that uses buy now pay later. So you can make the decisions in real time or you can more set up your pattern, your personal configuration of when you want to pay in full and when you want to pay in installments because one of the things that we're seeing across our platform, and again, we work with all the leaders in the space is some of the higher growth areas are coming into more everyday spend like categories where consumers are using this more as a cash flow tool. And whenever I hear people, for example, talk about their little concern, like, oh, groceries growing fast. And I always give them the example is, well, do you use a premium credit card? And a lot of times they might say, yes, I do. I say, well, you don't pay for your groceries for 40 days. So it's quite logical that someone might say, I want to pay for my grocery in four over a six week period, right? That's already what you do on your credit card, even when you pay in full. So that's what's changing about how, you know, shifting it to more of an issued value proposition that puts the control in the hands of the consumer and doesn't rely on the merchant to have the checkout experience is really opening up the market in a great way for our BNPL customers. - No, that is fantastic. And also, like, I mean, just looking at the broader numbers as well, right, Mike? Like, pause is still, it's a substantial part of retail spending anyway. It's like, you don't, as much as e-commerce is grown, we're still like 7, 8, 9% of total retail. So it doesn't really, I mean, it's a huge opportunity, kind of waiting to be tapped on this innovation definitely unlocks that market, right? - Oh, for sure. There's still so much opportunity. And just, you know, this is a pretty big business for us, you know, lending in BNPL later. And just in this last quarter, for us, our volume on our platform grew by over 60% year over year in Q3 in this use case. And a lot of it is driven by these new capabilities and sort of the expansion of the market that's coming from this shift to being more of a, you know, a consumer value proposition as opposed to a merchant value proposition. - Absolutely. So, I mean, let's talk a little bit about the competitive landscape as well, right? Like, there are a lot of full stack providers in the market. How do you differentiate? Like, what is your competitive mode? - Yes, so we really focus on, our vision is to enable payment possibilities. So to really make it possible for our customers to do something unique and something specific to their business. And we've really maintained that leadership role by continuing to evolve our platform and giving our customers more and more control. What we think really makes us unique is that we don't make our customers have to have a trade off. In most payment platform businesses, you have to choose between innovation or reliability or new functionality or scale, right? You very rarely get both, but at Marquetta, it's and not or we offer all those things. So we have the modern flexible processing that's in a single platform. So you can do multiple use cases, you know, credit and debit, consumer and commercial, we're across 40 countries, you know, all in one technology stack. We have reliability at scale. So we are at about four and a half and nine of reliability of our platform. And in 2025, we're going to process about 400 billion of volume. So, you know, scale and reliability. And then we have a lot of expertise and experience in supporting innovators and disruptors and helping nurture that growth and advising them as they go along with things related to, you know, not only compliance, but user experience. And because we do so many different use cases, we can help our customers understand, well, one of our customers in this other space, you know, did this. We think that could apply in your instance. And this is how you could utilize our platform to do that. So that combination of scale and innovation, that's like reliable is what makes Marquetta quite unique. And so as we're moving into embedded finance, it makes us a very logical and safe destination for a company that's already large and multinational and therefore is thinking relatively big, but also wants to do new innovative things. You know, that's something that we can serve very well. - Well, that's awesome. So I know that you've rebuilt the Go to Margaret motion over the past year as well. What is the new pipeline looking like in terms of composition, like embedded finance, new banks, corporate spend? - Yeah, so we, there's really our pipeline is filled with two types of opportunities, I would say. One is, you know, a lot of the way I like to describe it is the FinTech winners have been crowned. So, you know, five, seven years ago, there were a lot of new companies chasing some of these new areas. But now, you know, it's very clear, there are some very big businesses now in these spaces and many of them are on our platform, whether they're new banks, by now pay later, expense management, even what we do in on-demand delivery. Like, I don't think consumers who use Instacard and DoorDash new breeds really understand how that use case really works behind the scenes from a payment perspective that we enable. But so the first thing is helping those businesses grow because now they're really spreading their wings. They're becoming big companies, new products, new geographies, and that's one thing we want to keep supporting their growth. And then the second area are these much larger enterprises. Now, so think of this as Fortune 500 companies that are now interested in, I want to insert a card product and what makes us, again, relatively as unique is we can do credit and debit, consumer and commercial. So, if you're a marketplace, you might say why I want to help my consumers and I want to help my SMBs and some of my people want to pay in full, some of them want revolving credit and we can do all that in one integration on a single platform, which is what makes us pretty unique. So we don't focus on only certain types of opportunities because our platform is sort of built to be very flexible and do it all. And so we more target the type of company or the type of business. And that's what our now pipeline is filled with. It's an exciting evolution of our business and the customers we serve. - Well, for sure. And I think companies are also like global from get-go nowadays and new age companies, particularly. So that is definitely like the speed and the scale and the speed do scale is kind of phenomenal now. - In tech businesses also, because they're multinational, they think it's some, we have to help them understand that payments is a little bit of a local business. So. - Which they don't really appreciate. - So a lot of technology companies think, well, yeah, I just want to launch in 40 countries. Like at one time, it's like, well, in payments, it doesn't really work that way. There are nuances and we try to abstract as much of that away from our customers as possible. But it's also, there's a little bit of an education experience about the difference between a financial services product and maybe a pure technology product. - No, I am, I completely hear what you're saying there. I can particularly, I think people don't appreciate that tech works at a very different pace versus finance. And finance is low-not because it can't move fast. Some of it is by design, right? Like some of that friction is by design to protect and to, you know, there are a lot of other elements around the regulatory side of things that you need to consider. So I completely get why our job isn't all that easy. But coming down to AI, right, like I know you probably are leveraging for a lot of the common use cases across fraud decisioning customer support and compliance. But more so on the consumer side, does AI open new types of card programs or risk-based pricing models that weren't feasible before? - You say you're right. That we're applying it in all the ways you would think and risk and fraud, right? Machine learning has been around in managing fraud and payments for decades. It's now enhanced with AI, but the principles have been around for a while. And then you're right, a lot of customer service today is done through a bot. And so you want that bot to be able to easily call your APIs and file a dispute, for example, on behalf of a consumer. So we're doing all those things. I think one of the exciting areas that we are looking to apply AI that could change more of the customer experience is in personalization. If you think about the technology today, it's highly personalized. And that has not come to the card business. So the way I often describe this is if you and I have the same card, the rewards we get are exactly the same. But if you and I were sitting next to each other and pulled up the same website, what's down the right-hand side of that website is gonna be very different for the two of us based on our past behavior and then trying to anticipate what is relevant to you. And that's where we think rewards are coming. So again, with real-time information and real-time data in AI, based on what I've seen you spend before and maybe what I know about you based on what you do on my platform already, I could offer you a very personal reward as an incentive for you to make a purchase that could still be very much in my interest. And that would be different than what is offered to myself. And that's something that AI can do in real-time, right? So these are all these things would be happening immediately. That's what we're most excited about. The application of AI is this dynamic rewards capability and personalized rewards. We think it's like you don't really see it today, but you know, five years from now, we think this is going to be one of the things that differentiates cards from those who don't have that type of capability. Absolutely. Another thing that we've been observing a lot of-- and it's becoming more part of active conversation now is agentic commerce. How are you seeing your customers or the industry more broadly beginning to integrate AI agents into their businesses? Yeah, there's some very exciting things being, I would say, experimented, right? There's nothing that's really very mainstream yet. But I would say there's a few areas. Some of them we already touched on. So most service now, if you contact someone, a lot of times people don't even call. But even if you call, you probably-- even if you think you're talking to someone, but it's probably actually more of a bot, even though they're responding to you with a voice. So having all that automated is a big part of where we see agentic commerce. But the other new or exciting area is a lot of the talking agentic commerce today is being driven by the merchant community. So a lot of the announcements you see and hear are about merchants wanting to make sure they're ready for people to buy from them through an agent, for example. But we focus on the issuer side of the ecosystem. And we think that it's very reasonable, particularly since we cater to innovators and disruptors, that one of the places you would go is your payment app. If I want to go buy something, it's very logical to go to the person who provides the card I use to make payments and then start there and say, oh, I'm interested in buying this item and set all the configuration. So one of the things we're doing that we're working on is making sure that that's easy. So our customers could easily call their APIs and then configure a card. Because the way we think at least risk will be managed initially is you won't send the agent out with your card that you have on file. For example, you would say, OK, I want to purchase this type of item, maximum of $200. You're going to give it parameters and you're going to configure the card a lot of how expense management works today. Like you mentioned it earlier, where you narrow down how the card can be used to make sure it doesn't do the wrong thing and to manage risk. And so that's really where we're focused on agente commerce is making that easy for our customers when they're ready to do that to have all those APIs and that connectivity ready so they could implement that for the benefit of their customers. Wow, yeah. And one of the things that also comes to mind, like in a lot of places, you still leave your card details in an e-commerce context or even in a point of sale context sometimes, it always made me wonder, how secure is that your credentials kind of stay wherever? In an agentic world, that probably eases some of that problems. Like your agent, like you go to a bar, you really don't need to show your entire ID, all your details. It just confirms for you that you are above 18 and then you move on. That's right. It's going to accelerate the tokenization of credentials, where the only you and your bank and the network knows you're too credential and everywhere you show up, there's something in the front that's unique to that location. Because even now with your card on file, there's a lot of that happening where each of those companies is creating an individual token. So if one of them was compromised, it actually doesn't compromise all your other cards. It's very easily dealt with only in that one location. And I think everything related to agentic commerce is only going to accelerate that use of tokens to create that abstraction layer for security purposes. Awesome. Well, that was really insightful. I think they're kind of coming to a closing. But before we close, I have two more questions for you, Mike. One is, can you tell me, what is the most persistent misconception that investors still have about marketer and generally about modern card issuing? I would say maybe a common misconception about modern card issuing is that up until now, it's really being utilized by disruptors, who are more comfortable with more modern technology and want to do things in new ways. But there are questions about will all those things really become mainstream, or will this only be for more innovative kind of disruptive like entities? And our view is that as those innovators and disruptors just grow and grow. And as we've been talking about some of these types of companies, they're becoming big businesses now. That's going to start to become baseline capabilities in order to be competitive. And so if that's the case, then everyone is going to have to come up to that new standard. And the reality is the more legacy platforms likely will not be able to do that. So I think that is still a little bit of a misconception as well. Yeah, some of these innovators maybe need this technology, but does everybody need it? And our view is that that's going to become the new normal. And so if you're going to effectively compete, you're going to need those capabilities also, which means it becomes very broad-based. Yeah, I think I hear you. And also there was a lot of conversation around all the non-bank starters showing cards, then will the banks just sit and watch? Like they will also have to kind of raise the bar and show up in this new context, right? But before we close, just a quick last two-minute question, what is the one strategic bet that you're making today that you believe the market is still undervaluing about market? I would-- maybe I wouldn't-- I mean, because one, I think investors, typically, are pretty smart and are well-informed. I wouldn't call it a bet per se. But I would say a big strategic priority from Arcada is our growth in investment in Europe, particularly as a US-listed company. I mean, a lot of investors tend to be fairly US-centric. But Europe is a huge opportunity, and we're really seeing tremendous growth. So our volume in Europe has been growing over 100% now for many, many quarters. And we're supporting several use cases across new banking, lending by now, pay later, expense management. And then in July, we just acquired a business called Transact Pay, which has something called an EMI license, which is required by the regulator in Europe to operate. And it allows us to do the program management activities that we do in North America for our customers that are more related to compliance. We were not able to offer those in Europe because we did not have this license. And now that we have that license across both the UK and the EU, we can offer that service. And that has two opportunities for us. One is it makes it even easier for customers to expand on our platform and have a very consistent offering. So before we could have helped people expand into Europe, but we could only provide the processing for them. And we couldn't do all the services that we did for them in the US, for example. Now we can. So it makes it very seamless. And we had a customer just this past quarter, we announced that it's expanding in Europe now that we can really make that easy for them. And then the second area is that we've gotten consistent feedback from the market that the very largest players, as we were talking about, multinationals. These are like big companies already. They really just want one company that does processing program management and has the license because they are not payment experts. So I want somebody who has the full solution for me. And so sort of at the larger end of the market, this really unlocks that for us to be able to really compete effectively. And so we really see Europe as not only a huge growth area, but this concept of multinationals and because they're platform businesses or more tech oriented businesses, having issuing across many, many geographies is maybe a little bit underappreciated. And we think is a very great growth opportunity for our business. Well, that sounds like a very exciting plan going to the next year. Thank you so much, Mike. It was really a pleasure speaking. And I'm sure there's more that we look forward to discussing going forward. But thanks a lot for joining us and speak with you soon. Thanks so much for having me.