Markets Under Pressure - Now What | Michael Oliver and Jimmy Connor

Hi, before we get on with the interview, just a quick reminder of our virtual gold conference happening this Friday, January the 23rd at 8 a.m. Eastern time. We have some amazing speakers to speak on what's happening in terms of precious metals and where the prices might be going here in the coming weeks. John Chapalia from Sprite Ascent Management will speak on what he and his team are seeing in terms of flows into the various spot products. We have some of the biggest and best gold producers in the world including a Niko, Centera Gold, Hamlow Mining, Ken Ross Gold, Oceana Gold and Ocisco Development. We also have Joe Cavatoni from the World Gold Council. He's going to speak on what central banks have been doing and then we're going to hear from our good friend Michael Oliver and he's going to speak on what's happening with gold and silver and where he thinks the S&P and the NASDAQ are going here in the coming days and weeks. Once again that's this Friday, January the 23rd at 8 a.m. Eastern time and I hope to see you there. If you can't join his life you can check this out anytime on our YouTube channel, Dolores Street Capital. Good luck in the markets. Michael thank you very much for joining us today. Well these politicians have really done it to us now. All these world leaders are over in Davos having a good time right now and you and I are here grinding it out and we're trying to make money and also protect our money. So we have a lot to discuss here in the short period of time and I really don't know where to begin but why don't we just begin with today's activities. When you look at the S&P, you look at the NASDAQ, they were both down two to three percent. What's your assessment of today's action? Well the the key to watch and we've been saying this for months when we're focused on silver and gold the key level to watch is the bond market because we know this time around not like 2000, 2002, which is dot com bubble. Okay fine. Simple explainer. Overdone sector or mortgages 2007, 2009. You know this family, that family and a lot of mortgages. Okay. This time it's government bonds. They're the the titanics of the world. Hours the Japanese bonds, UK, you name it. They're all in dire straits and we know that and it's not because it's just what's happening now. It's been building up and building up and building up and building up. Okay. And now suddenly because of the events of the tariff versus the you know the war between us and NATO and so forth, it's put our they want to dump everything. You know the European cell, all those bonds, etc. Fine. Okay. Good. They should anyway. What's that? But T-Bonds technically we've been assessing them continually. T-Bonds futures is what we look at their 30 year bond futures have been around for decades. Okay. That does not influence by the Fed's short-term rate cuts. In fact that cut rates you know for period of time here and the T-Bonds yields are nailed to the ceiling. High prices low. And if you slip those prices down much below where they are now, the T-Bonds futures price. Two, three points below where they're trading now. They reached into the 113s today. Okay. I'll explain that in a minute. You could precipitate a panic where you don't just get a price drop but you get like a real quick couple day. Oh my no. Crash-type fear. Okay. You can't have that in the bond market. It's bigger than this. It's stock market doesn't compare to the T-Bond market. And it's not just us. It's Japan. We know that. T-Bonds collapsed from 2020 to 2022. October 2022 they made a low. They dropped from 180 90 on the T-Bond price down to 117. Much of that occurring in the year 2022. Okay. Since October 2022 you can draw lines sideways on the price chart or across the yields on a high level. It's gone dead. Staying at those levels either side of that 117 price level. Right now we're actually below it. There have been three bond rally attempts in that last couple of years. Three years where there have been rally efforts to try to get it up off the floor. Drop the yields and they've not taken hold. None of the rallies have worked. None of the dips in yield to sustain. They got right back up. Okay. If you slip down now much below today's low by a couple points and won't get more specific we do with our subscribers. You could precipitate what we call at least a mini panic. And I know that the Fed will intervene because already in November Williams the head of the New York Fed announced or enterprise conference stated that the Fed was going to quote start buying bonds. Why? He said oh just because liquidity in the market needed more liquidity. Okay. He didn't say anything about the you know how bad they were anyway but liquidity. Okay fine. They've been buying bonds since November's evidence. You can see and bonds are dropped from 117, 116 and for the last couple months in the narrowest price range in T bond futures history like they're dead. They can't rally. They also don't go down. Now suddenly today punched out that recent low in just below 115 but even got below 113 today. Now we've got some trigger levels require a few more points but if you do that you could get this thing to start to puke. You cannot have that kind of event. Everything else is meaningless if T bond start to go down. People go hands in the air okay and same with the central bank. Well what's the prime beneficiary of the central banks going berserk printing money, expanding money supplies, playing games, gold, real money, silver, real money and that's why today you've got this sharp down in the SAP based on the news about the T bonds especially in Japan having crashed and hours are behaving sick. But gold's up sharply, silver's up even more sharply and the miners are up. I thought the miners are supposed to go down with the stock market. Remember that sharp drop in the stock market, miners go down. They said they're up three or four percent. What's going on? Okay. What's going on is reality. The question is do we get a further sharp drop in the T bonds like real soon? Because if that happens you could see verticality and silver and gold like you've not seen so far in this advance. I'll pause there and we can get all of those later on. But anyway that's right now we're sitting on a potential tender box that could literally unfold in days in both directions. So your big concern are the the bonds, the US bonds and I always watch the 10 year and the 10 years gone from like 4% up to 430 call it. I don't watch the 30 year. What's the yield on that? I don't even keep up with it. It's like five or something. I look at the price but the point is it's nailed at its ceiling. The yields have come down for the last several years since 2022 when they surged and yet the feds cut rates are in the short end. They don't control that beast and that beast is too big to be led to let go. Yeah go ahead. I was just going to say this is another big concern with the US government because they have $8 trillion worth of bonds that are maturing this year. They have to hold them over and they have to refinance them hopefully at a lower interest rate. But things continue like this. They're not going to get those lower interest rates to your point. They can't control the short end. The long end. Yeah the long end they can't control. The issue is though the speed of this event. If we're entering like what Japan just experienced last night in their tea bonds, their bond market, which has been going up and yields and yields ongoing, but now it's spiking. We're starting to do that. If we start to do the same thing, uh oh. That's like a nuclear event, especially for markets. And we know the central bank will go as berserk as they possibly can. They know what all kinds of tools they've had in the past. They'll use them all. They'll invent new ones. I don't know what they're going to do. But they will have to panic because it's too big not to intervene. The question then is our assessment of silver in particular, and we think gold is in silver going up a lot more this year, a lot more. Okay. Multiple's more. But silver is going to beat the pants off a gold. Silver is very depressed to gold. We all know that it's been depressed for a long time so that hasn't worked. But the technicals that say it shifted into an outperform versus gold occurred in November at the close. By our metrics, we said, okay, game is on. Silver's going to launch versus gold. It's since it's now up to 2% of the price of gold. Early this year, last year, it was at 1% of the price of an ounce of gold. So it's doubled in relative value over a year. And if you go back in history and look, where was an ounce of silver versus an ounce of gold? There's a percent. Let's say in the 1980 bull market peak when we hit 50 bucks that old range. Okay. Because it's six and a half percent, six and a half. We're at two. Okay. And in 2011 peak when we hit 50 the second time, it was over three percent. We're at two. Our technical show is that that spread relationship is broken out and we're likely. Think about this. Silver's been in a 50 year, half a century, dull range, suppressed, whatever. Gold hasn't been. Gold blows the heck out of every prior bull high. Copper's not where it was back in the 1970s, 80s, 90s, 2000. It's four times that price. Silver for some reason has been contained. Whether that's manipulation or a combination of events, it made a mistake. And whenever markets make a mistake, they tend to compensate for it and quite often overcompensate in a tantrum. This has happened many times in markets. It's not usual, but it happens. Copper did it in 2005, six led did it in 2007. We had quadrupled in a couple quarters to a new reality. If silver does that, our projection is you could see silver this year, three to five hundred dollars in ounce. Okay, now much of that should occur within the first couple quarters of that spread breakout. I mean, and much of it should occur by middle of this year in a thunderbolt tantrum move. This event that's going on now with tea bonds could help speed that up because it panics the central bank. And if you're an investor and you look at the horizon, what do you got? Do you want to buy the stock market? The world's selling it now. You want to buy the tea bonds? What's left? What's doing well? Well, what's your buddy down the street told you six months ago that he did and you didn't do it. You buy silver. Instead, all we're hearing on the internet is, let's short it. Let's short it. It's over. It's over. I think the surge that we get in the immediate horizon, if those tea bonds slip a bit more, could take silver well past a hundred, which might be sort of a normal guy's expectation of where the doubling of the old $50 high, you know. And you get a midpoint stumble in this six month explosion, which we do expect to get a midpoint fake out stumble. Where's it going to be? Is it going to be a logical level or at some level it just turns people's heads like 130 bucks or something? These events that are now going on with tea bonds could precipitate that. And if they do watch out for the Supreme Court because if those guys come in and say, hey, we're going to step into history here, we're not going to let you do that or at least try not to and create doubt about whether you can do it in which case, oh, panic's over, right? You could get a lot of volatility at that point. Anyway, long silver over gold. So you're suggesting, yeah, you're suggesting Congress isn't going to do the right thing. So the Supreme Court could do it like they put their foot down and say, okay, we've already decided, you know, we got enough majority or whatever. We don't want you to do that. Can't let you do that. And even if he goes to some alternate policy, which he says he's got, you know, and all this stuff, fine, good, okay, whatever. But the point is that would at least temporarily help put out the fire that we perceive to be of Europeans dumping our bonds, Europeans dumping our stocks, et cetera. It won't sustain a turn, but it could create that kind of, oh, fever's over. In which case, if that fever has been driving silver and gold over the last few days, for example, then yet might create a correction, but the question is where, where do you go before you get that? And I'm of the view that probably you're going to be well past 100 before you even see a correction that you could say, oh, there's the midpoint of the time six months span where you get a wobble. Anyway, it's an important level because people have got calls going to be concerned about that. And so your point is if we do get a correction, because of the Supreme Court ruling, and we get a correction goal, we get a correction in the silver, and it pulls back, let's just say 20 or 30%. Given the moves, he will surprise me at all and see that kind of a pullback, but that's a buying opportunity. Yeah, that's what you got to step in again. Yeah, no, this bigger reality is not based on the things we see now that have just occurred, tariff, for example, that only became a market term in 2025 before that it wasn't an issue. We still had a bubble stock market, well, before we ever had tariffs, okay? He'd had a 15-year bull that took the S&P up 10 fold and then as they got 20 fold over a span of decade and a half, money printing, M2 brothes, free money in the Fed funds rate. So you already had a bubble. So this issue of the tariff coming going, like, this issue, is not really the factor. It's the Newsy factor right now, but there's bigger issues. Same with the T-Bot market. It's not in trouble now just because we have tariffs. It's in trouble because it's in trouble. Jamie Diamond has said that for months, you know, you can't keep playing this game decade by decade and you've got to face the consequences pretty soon that you've got a spending problem versus the GDP, you know, etc. So anyway, we're in that and don't run, if you've got leverage positions, like I do, I have some leverage positions, especially call options or an SLV, for example. I'm keen to move those over and move more into unleaveraged at that point because the big move is still coming later this year after this jiggle whenever we get the jiggle. That's good to know. Michael, what's your, I'm just curious what your type frame man is on those call options. Well, I'm in September now. So, and I've already been lightening my position and moving more into junior miners because I think right now from the perspective of this coming year, but probably even the come next six months, if there is an asset on the planet that is overly cheap in relation to anything else, including the metals they get out of the ground, it's the gold and silver miners. They are free compared to their historic valuations to an ounce of gold. And when we examine the technicals of let's say the XAU index, which is the gold and silver miners index been around since the 1980s, we plot that history of its relative valuation to gold. We can see a technical breakout level that we're right now challenging. It goes back 11 years where it's been confined in this little base at exceptionally cheap relative levels. Third cheap, like between four and eight percent of the price of gold. Back in the 80s, the 90s, 2000 through 2008, it was on average 25% of the price of an ounce of gold. And we're now rallying to over 8%. That's how cheap it is. And it's got technical wear with all to explode out of that base, meaning suddenly investors say, "Hey, I want to own the miners." And then when we reduce it down to the silver miners versus the gold miners, we see an even more explosive situation. So as I transition out of leveraged in process, I'm moving more into unleaveraged miners. Because I think that's where the real bang for the buck comes to the rest of this year. And Michael, just because you're talking about the miners, I should probably remind everybody this Friday, January the 23rd at 8 AM Eastern, we're holding a virtual gold conference. We have some of the best gold mining companies in the world, including Ignico, Kenross, Gold, Oceanic, Gold, Hemlo mining, Osisco development. So I would highly suggest you check it out. Michael's also going to be speaking there. You can see a link below on the show notes. Once again, that's this Friday, January the 23rd at 8 AM Eastern time. So you talked about silver. You think we're going to see a new reality in terms of price. What about gold? Yes. Gold's reality is this. Well, silver's been kept in this half a century silly range compared to any other asset on the planet practically. Gold hasn't. Gold made high in 1980, then made another in 2011. They were each eight fold gains from bear low to bull high, higher bear low, next bull high, eight fold gains from bear low to high. Okay. Our bear low is a thousand fifty dollars in December 2015. Okay. We're only a little bit more than four fold right now. If we went to eight fold and quote, did it again? The norm. Okay. Have another normal global market. Like the two we've just had in the past 50 years. You'd be eight thousand five hundred dollar gold. Just to do the norm. And yet we're in a different world now. You know, like the two bonds. They're not, they're in crisis mode. They weren't back in those particular times. We're different. So just to go to eight thousand five hundred. Wow. You think that's crazy. No, it's not. It's done. We've done it twice before. And yet silver is just now taken out. It's nineteen eighty high in 2011 high. It's got a lot of catching up to do and also on that percentage basis. You know, ounce of silver, ounce of gold. It's it's off the page cheap. And what if silver, again, not only take out its fifty year highs on price and went nuts and get went to a new reality, why shouldn't the spreads go up and challenger me but take out those highs six and a half percent nineteen eighty to three point one percent to 2011. We're two percent. And if gold is eight thousand bucks, only eight thousand bucks, a normal eight full move. And silver goes to three percent or goes to six and a half. It's off the page. You know, so that's what we're looking at. And it's not going to be incremental arm wrestling. It's going to be sudden. Now you are very concerned about US bonds. What about the US dollar because that's also coming under pressure. Dollar is already broken in our estimate. It broke in April last year at no excuse me March of last year at a price of a hundred and four twenty one closing price that month. We put out a major sales signal said that dollar is now in a bear. Price chart wasn't price chart has been laying for the last. Wow. Couple quarters on an uptrend that anybody with the crayon and a ruler could go back to like two thousand and eight on the dollar index. Remember the dollar index doesn't measure the real buying power of the dollar. It measures it versus two other fiat, especially yen and the euro. Okay, euro and yen in that order. They're seventy percent of the dollar index. So it's one piece of crap versus a couple of others. But so it's not as real buying power, but versus them it's broken a momentum uptrend when I use the three-year average oscillator or a ten-year average. There's a momentum trend line that while price is holding that line or rather this way laying on the line for a couple quarters now. No rally off of that price chart line just laying there like it's dead. But momentum already broke that comparable structure. Price will break it too. So if you see the dollar slip from it's now 98 something. So it's only about six points below where we said sell it. And you see it get down and you know much below 95. Let's say even the price guys are going to say oh gosh it didn't hold. And I think you'll assault the old lows at 70 which we saw you know a couple decades ago. Wow. But that's just again that's just that's sort of meaningless because it's like you know who cares it's one very piece of paper versus another. They're both degenerating in real value year by year decade by decade. It's real value is you know I've said this probably in the interview before your granddad built a house for 4,500. Your dad built one for 45,000. And now you if you want to build a median price it's 450,000. There. Degeneration of the currency. Yes. And you raise a very good point. I should throw it a few numbers just for the benefit of our viewers when it comes to money supply. You often hear people talk about money printing. And when you look at the money supplies measured by M2 in January of 2020 before all of this craziness started the money supply was 15.4 trillion. Now it is well over 22 trillion. That's an increase of 42%. So to your point it's not like that hosted that you bought for a million dollars. It gets you up near 100% in the decade. Yeah. Exactly. I mean that's what's happening. It's not more maybe next month. It may be next month. It's the tea bonds don't hold. Because they're going to pull out those fire hoses like crazy. I mean mortgages are one thing and defending the bank here and there. That's another. And even back then in 2009 they didn't quite defend the banks that well. Some of them aren't here anymore. But the tea bonds go. The fire hoses will be very fat. Now I started this conversation by asking you about the S&P. What are your thoughts? Are you concerned about the S&P? Do you think we're going to see or we could see a 20 to 30% drop? Well I think you can see 50% or more but I think it's it's going to be more layered than a collapse. The we think that since 2025 early in the year February I think it made its high last year. So a year ago almost. It was just below 6200 on the S&P. Right now we're trading what? 67 something? Yeah. So we're up you know 10% or so above that high peak of last year. I think it's been a topping process since then. Our momentum work. Forget the price chart. Price chart beta high had a sell-off low and get back it took out the high. So it's been zigzagged either side of last year's price high down then up. Now I'll hit it back down again. We think that's a topping process or a price while momentum has not made new highs. The price came up made new highs this year. momentum said uh uh. I'm not even near the 2025 high. And there's certain levels on price that if you get to on a monthly close during this year you'll start breaking some of the structures on annual momentum and on quarterly momentum which are too long-term momentum metrics we look at. They're not far below you are right now but I want a monthly close there. But even when you break those I don't think it's necessarily anything that collapses. Yeah sure you might share 10 or 20% but you know we do that quite often in this thought market. I'm talking about something Allah that October event in 2008 where you drop like 35% in a couple of weeks. I don't think that's on the horizon until you get much further down than we are now. I don't specify the number we we do that in our reports but it's not near where we are now. So we could get some sell-off now that could hurt and it caused people to lose all the money that made last year for example. So a whole year wiped out the first part of 2026 but not precipitous. You know the kind that generates the irrational selling of silver and gold miners because the stock market went down. And by the way those people need to wake up to a very sharp day in the stock market today and yet they're up three and four percent. But I don't think that kind of stock market collapse is immediate. I think it could happen later in the year. So that market I think is not a place to be. I think commodities are in general. Commodity stocks including oil by the way. Okay before we jump into oil I want to first ask you about these bonds because the largest holder of US treasuries in the world is Japan. They own about a trillion dollars worth. China owns 800 billion dollars worth. The UK owns 800 billion dollars worth. I'm kind of wondering what's again this is all speculation but right now we got to sell the US trade going on. If these nations let's just say the European nations start selling US bonds and US stocks. We could give one hell of a sell-off here. Yeah I guess you could and I just I still think the stock market sell-off this time is not going to be have the consequence that it had in 2008 on the miners particularly. Gold also had a bad month that month in October 2008 but remember the stock market already been dropping a full year from October 2007 before it had that crash type event in October 2008 and yet gold and silver been going up during that time. It wasn't until you got a little summer of 2008 that they started a week in with the stock market and then even it was very brief. Stock market continued down until March 2009 and gold was back at its highs by early 2009 okay and the Fed had instituted QE in November 2008 right after that crash. So I don't think see the stock market as being a precipitous problem. The one that is potentially precipitous is the bond market which is way too big to allow meaning they're going to have to go ape to prevent that. and do policies that you know even Powell will have to do. Of course and if he doesn't you know what Trump's going to say. Powell caused all this okay. It's a neat game anyway but I'd be watching the tea bonds. The dollar will I think yes we'll follow if you slip another several points on the dollar index it will start to drop and of course what does that do to the Europeans who own a lot of your stocks in the last few years. They're not only losing on stock price but they're losing on the conversion back to the euro. So that could become an issue as well once that dollar index really does start to to slip on down. So these factors are in play and I think gold and silver have noted all along. All right you touched on oil yeah it's like your bullish on oil give me your thoughts. Not yet but I'll tell you what I see. That oil drop we recently had that took us back into the mid 55 level. Okay but if you look at oil since that surge that peaked three weeks after the Ukraine Russia war began it peaked okay so the war didn't take it up if it had already gone up most of the way before that war ever. Since then oil dropped from 130 collapsed down by 2023 to $70 range and oscillated within the 60s in the 70s and 80s like dead sideways basically. Nice swings but it really wasn't going anywhere. Last year you had a little panic sell off they got you down in the mid 50s 55 area and you had another one week or so go where you got down there again. Most fundamental analysts that I hear say nah go to 40 go back to 40 what they don't and that's based on their assessment of oil fundamentals okay but they don't assess is the relative value of oil a barrel of oil measured against any asset you want to wish for it against it's off the page cheap. Yeah and humankind we may evolve beyond oil you know be solar nuclear whatever but it's not going to happen right away and right now oil at 60 buck level measured against gold even I recently heard against silver it's a record low because silver when up at oil went down you've got a factor that end when you assess a market that's dirt cheap you could take all the fundamentals you want and say well there's so much oil we got yeah that that that ultimately it's a price level it can matter and I think oil is one of those positions fundamentally technically we have a massive momentum structured that if you get up couple several points above where you are now again this something we specify in a report to close out a month during this quarter not far from where you are now despite all the negative fundamentals momentum says I'm coming out of here and it would not shock me that when we get our momentum break out of the oil it will suddenly catch up to the already rising commodity complex Bloomberg for example was in the hundred levels now one thirteen one fifteen level so it's gone up some Bloomberg commodity index oils the sick one but it's got a trigger or above it if you get there wouldn't shock me for I went up 50% and a couple quarters like into the nineties and boy would that upset people especially Donald Trump who's you know promised low gas prices and also the average guy because remember his life is his day-to-day reality and the one thing he could smile about is gas lean prices are staying low at least if all of a sudden they jump 50% that even that goes out the window and if you also take away his retirement gains of last year in a matter of a couple weeks he's back to where he was in late twenty twenty four and he's about to retire that all of a sudden emotion comes into play and doubt hands in the air and that's reflected politically and doesn't necessarily favor the democrat party and fragments both parties as they are now you may end up with a three-party system or a four-party system in this country in this crisis because nobody's sure about what's working get the point okay talk about gas prices Michael I just filled up for a dollar and a gas leader yeah I've seen that cheap in years well and that gas made a load down here a buck you know some months ago and shot up to about four pullback to about three natural gases extort very volatile over history it's proven that it doesn't trend nicely sometimes a little explode like we caught that move up to ten bucks that occurred a couple years ago and also warned of a drop but we didn't go back to two bucks or one buck but it's in a roughly positive trend right now irregular nasty zigzags but it's in a upward grind from what is very historically cheap low levels for natural gas so it's sort of like crude the lows we've seen recently in natural gas are just you know we go back to history and just look at a price chart you know what are you going to do there is zero you know and so yeah the energy sector somewhat of a laggard now to the commodity complex back in that 2022 bull 21-22 surge they were a leader this time they were laggard within the complex Michael do you have a view on uranium yeah i'm not real excited about it we we got bullish on uranium under 20 bucks back in 2017 went over a hundred in august a year and a half ago we said it was yeah august two summers ago we said there could be a correction watch out we thought it would go down to about two it's three year average it did held around there based it's now turned back up it's in a bull trend but it's already had a monster move from the depths under 20 to over 100 so factor that in yes it's in a bull trend and you're probably going to go up and ultimately take out that high but it's it's probably not going to be dynamic and it's certainly not going to rival the broader commodity complex what we expect to see there and certainly not get anywhere close to what the monetary metals are going to do so yeah positive but sort of ho home so the overarching theme that i'm hearing from you is that you've got to sell paper assets and buy hard assets i think that's a reality there's a lot of estate oil yeah agricultural real estate would be a good place to look because it's connected to the grains and i think the grains will they based i think they will participate on the upside they price themselves out you can almost tell by look at the price chart see then but our momentum studies of like the bloomberg versus the s and p bloomberg is a well-balanced index it's not overly weighted in energy for example which so many are uh and you look at where it is versus 20 years ago or so 2008 the bloomberg commodity index for example was it 235 or so right now it's 115 or like half the price where we were in 2008 so it's even low versus its old highs but when you measure it versus where it was on the s and p then it collapsed in relative value effectively what you look at in the spread chart is it's free okay you know i think there's an asset class shift already underway where smart money is already saying okay i think this paper asset especially as thought market is probably overdone i'm not going to try to pick the top i'm just going to start moving assets and i'm going to move over into commodity related yeah some gold miners and silver miners i wish i had done it before that's what they're saying to themselves but also grain related oil related especially if oil breaks out like we said oil related stocks grain related base metal miners they're real strong now copper so forth i think there's a a thought process underway and i suspect if this asset class shift does fully get going and i think it's going to in the next few months you'll start to see evidence it'll last for years now it's it'll been the place to have been this year going forward not just to trade but a major shift in human preference i want something real i want to touch it you know what i mean uh and a sense of ground instead of you know what is AI anyway okay so if you missed out on AI you can make your money on commodities yeah yeah i think commodity related stocks you don't have to buy the commodities themselves uh there's vehicles to do that but i think the commodity related stocks are a place to be and they do not correlate well with the stock market so don't be fearful of owning stocks oil stocks grain related base metal related if the stock market goes down they do not correlate they can easily have a bull will it go stand so they're not part of the package well this has been a great discussion uh michael and i just want to remind our viewers again about a virtual gold conference coming up this Friday January the 23rd at 8 a.m. Eastern time there's a link below in the show notes and michael if someone would like to follow you or read more about your research or find out about your services where can they go all of our msa.com msa from a minimum structural analysis uh and you find my beautiful picture there and my email address click on it and ask me for some samples to be happy to set some sample i will also include a little below in the show notes michael thank you very much for making this time especially on such short notice with so much going on in the world thank you james c later thank you