Mark Manson: The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck

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I wear them all the time when we go on the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see which he picks out from Quince for me next. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. Wait the khaki that I wear like literally every day. Yep those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from but if you had to guess they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their min section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them let them know that unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. Happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated and the thing about purpose is that it's often hard. This idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about this. It's called a psychopath and you don't we don't want to be psychopath. A lot of people have replaced the legend with politics with economic pursuits and materialism. I'm like the most pro-religion atheist there probably is because if you don't place it somewhere you could very likely place it somewhere very destructive. The meaning of your life is what you make of it. That's intimidating. It's scary because if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things guess who's fault it is right guess who screwed up. Today on Unplanned we sat down with Mark Manson the New York Times bestselling author of the subtle art of not giving a frick that's actually the f-work. Mark's book speaks straight to your heart as a human. It's very different than the typical self-help book. We talk about why making friends as an adult is so hard the fastest way to find your purpose and so much more all on today's episode. Mark Manson welcome to Unplanned. I'm happy to be here. I did not plan on it. We also have the disappointment panda in the room. We need some explanation for the panda. He's making a rare appearance. He's kind of the mascot at the front of the office. I don't actually don't think he's ever been on a podcast. No way. This is his first podcast. Come here. Matt goes how do you think our audience would think we had a giant panda join us? Maybe if you just introduce him. I'm the t-shirt is so tight. He's heavy. Yeah. Yeah. He's a big boy. No, he's so in my book subtle art and not giving a fuck. I create a superhero called Disappointment Panda and his superpower is he tells people truths that they don't want to hear. But they need to hear, right? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, the problem in all your relationships is you. He just goes door-to-door to like a Bible salesman and like, not on the door and just tells them like the really awful thing that they need to hear about themselves. I love the quote from your book. It's like the panda go to someone's store and saying, hey, making more money isn't actually going to make you happier. It's not going to make your kids like you either. Yeah. That's our boy. Which I mean, man, it's so it's so convicting though because I put the prompt into AI reading reading your book. I was like, I'm going to have AI do this Disappointment Panda thing to me and it like reading the response back was like, whoa, it just it shook me. And the funny thing too was it essentially restated the title of your book in a way. It essentially told me to like stop caring about so much and focus on yeah, like focus on less essentially is what it told me to do because I'm trying to do too much. I want to be the best at everything. And that's simply impossible. And I'm going to drive myself crazy and those around me crazy by trying to be the most efficient person in every aspect of my life. How did you come up with that idea of the Disappointment Panda? You know, it's really funny. So when I'm writing, I often have this situation where I'm like, okay, the idea is good, but this is boring. And there was a section of the book where I was like, okay, like the content is good, but I'm just bored reading it. And so in those situations, I start asking myself, how can we make this fun? Yeah. And often, you know, most authors, they'll like pull some historical story or example, right? Or like some quote Steve Jobs said one time. And I had already done that in a bunch of other places in the book. And I was like, that's also boring. Like, like, let's just maybe it was the mood I was in, but I was like, let's get crazy. So I was like, what if I had a superhero and they just like, they just were awful. I was like, the superhero nobody wanted to see coming down the street. And that's how he was born. And you know, it's funny because when you're writing, sometimes you just, you just, you just have a hunch and you like go with it. And I'd say nine times out of 10 and ends up being terrible. Yeah. But then like one time out of 10 and ends up being brilliant. And you know, the disappointment panda is probably the most cited. I mean, people, they're people with disappointment panda tattoos. No way. Yeah. They're like sent pictures to me. He's definitely had stain power for sure. It's so it's sort of scripted. Like you can't forget that panda with the two tight t-shirt. And the superhero. Yeah. Is that an added touch that you put in recently or? Yeah. Well, no. It's so in the book, like the whole section section of disappointment panda is just so unhinged and weird. That I was like, well, you know, what's the movie? Is it, is it old school where they're like, you know, if you're going to go go full or whatever. Why do I not know that movie? There's some saying like that from like an old wolf arrow movie, but it was just like, okay, if we're going to go weird, like, let's just go all the way. Yeah. And so by the end of the section, I've got like this appointment panda sitting on a patio, watching the sunset, sipping a margarita. I love it. And I was like, obviously, he's wearing a sombrero. Yeah. Cause why not? And that's what pandas do, right? And it was just, I think I was just going from maximal what the energy in that chapter. And then I guess it worked. It's something that I love about you from just like everything I've seen is you clearly are just like authentically yourself. You, you don't hold back. You're, you're not, you're not giving an F. And, and like, like, I'm pretty sure this is the first podcast. We'll probably just mute you saying that. We don't, we don't, I guess I'll just be saying F and frick if that's okay. Sure. I should have. No, you're, no, no, no, no, you don't need it. You don't need to change yourself for us. Okay. But like, that was a bold move to release a book with the F word in the title, right? Like, I'm guessing when you, when you released a subtle art of not giving a Frick, sorry, I know that. But like, when you release the book, I'm apologizing to you. I'm like, Miss in my studio, you dropped the F. But like, when you went to release that book, was there anyone in your life that was like, Hey, Mark, are you sure you want to have the F word in your book title? Well, it's, it's funny because it was actually, it was like a very contentious debate with the publishers. Like, so when we were shopping, when my agent and I were shopping the book around, we basically shopped it with two titles and, and we told them we're like, we prefer the F bomb title. And, and at, by that point, you know, I had been blogging for about four or five years, and I had a bunch of articles go viral. And we had seen that like the F bomb just like, it just kills like everybody clicks on it. So we kind of went to the publishers and we're like, we think this is going to work. Yeah, like we've seen this work. We're pretty sure it's going to work. But most of the publishers were like, no, no, no, we're not going to touch that. And it's actually funny in hindsight. The big concern at the time was that Walmart wouldn't carry it. That was like the big, like that was the, the like, Oh, no, this is impossible. This is like 10 years ago. They're like, we don't want to upset Walmart, you know? That's funny. I wouldn't have expected. I don't really think about Walmart for books. Yeah, but I think at the time it was, you know, they were Amazon was the biggest retailer in Walmart was the second. So they're like, you know, probably 20, 30% of the market. And so a bunch of the publishers were like, this is just a no go. And my editor at Harper Collins, who I eventually, I actually signed the deal with, like, he really fought for it. He was like, no, no, no, this is you. This is the book. This is the message. Like we should, you know, live by the sword, die by the sword. Yeah. So to speak. So it's funny, because I actually wasn't that attached to it. Like a lot of authors get very up in arms and possessive, you know, they think their, their baby is like perfect and beautiful and everybody should love, think it's brilliant. Like they do. I was kind of like, look, I don't, they're plenty of good titles in the world. I don't need to have this one. But to my editor's credit, he, he actually really fought for it. And was like, no, it has to be in the title. I like that. Is it did Walmart eventually cave. And the funny thing is, too, is they came back to us maybe like a year later, six months a year later, and they're like, okay, we'll stock it, but you have to put a black box over the entire F word. So as if like, since we're in one letter, wasn't good enough for them, they're like, you have to censor the whole word and then we'll put it on the shelf. And so I'm guessing a lot of retailers, like they probably wouldn't have displayed the book if you actually had the F word, right? So that I'm guessing the publisher was pretty like pushed having the, the asterisk in the title. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's like pretty necessary. I actually think there's laws around what you're allowed to like sell in certain places with the F word. There's, there's famously, there's, we really want to bring profanity to podcast. There are actually seven curse words that are not allowed. I think the, the FCC regulates them, right? Okay. You can't say them on TV. So it's like, let him rip. Let him rip. Yeah, we can remember them that. We'll mute it or whatever we need to. You got him memorized. You got him memorized on the top of your head. I think it's, I think it's got, it's got, it's got, it's got another. That's four of them. I forget the other. Okay. Well, we'll get back to you. Everybody will say we'll get back to you on this. But it's a going back. But but you're not allowed. So you're not allowed to put it on broadcast television. You're not allowed to put it in like a newspaper or magazine and then not allowed to put it on like a store show. So you have to censor it in some way. Either believe it or like or block a letter out, but it was funny because Walmart was like, you know, oh no, censoring the you isn't enough for us because we're, we're Walmart. So we're gonna, we're gonna make you censor all four letters. And was cursing just a part of your life growing up or did you, was there like a definitive moment where you were like, I'm in a cursing, I'm going to say the F word now. I'm no longer going to say Frick. I'm going to say the actual word. I just thought I've always talked this way. Really? Yeah. Okay. See, I grew up like in like Bible belt, Missouri. Okay. So just now is a 27 year old father of two. I've started saying, saying the F word sometimes now that your father, I don't know. I still don't know how to feel about it. Yeah. Now that my father, that's what did it. That's what did it. Father. Father. Uncorked it. All those, all those late night changing diapers at 2 a.m. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. No, I also grew up in the Bible belt. But I think for me, it was, I was very rebellious. Okay. I didn't like where I grew up. So I was like. And that's why you sold drugs in middle school, is that right? Yeah. I sold drugs in middle school. I was like, "Come in full circle." Okay, we're right. How did your parents react? By the way? Oh, they know they grounded you. I read it in the book. They grounded you. Like my life ended, basically. Yeah. Yeah. I was put on like house arrest. That was a good call. I mean, to be fair, I mean, it was, it's interesting because looking back, my poor parents. Sometimes I go home for like Thanksgiving and my mom is like, "You know, I love your podcast, but do you really have to talk about your childhood so much?" Oh. And she's like, "We did our best with what we knew." I'm like, "I know, mom. I know." So shout out to my mom. Shout out to mom. Yeah. She's a great mom. She loves me very much. She did her best, but you know, no parent is perfect. I feel like my parents' marriage was coming apart. And so like in hindsight, as an adult, I can see what happened, which is my parents' marriage was coming apart. Obviously, when your marriage is coming apart, like you don't have the energy to like stay connected with your kids, right? Like you're just in full survival mode, maintenance mode. So my brother and I, and then of course, you know, it's like my brother and I kind of picked up on the tension and the turbulence in the house. And we're not getting, like mom, like we're not being paid attention to, like it's everything's uncomfortable. It's not a good home to be in emotionally. So you start lashing out as a kid, right? So you start, you've got to channel and direct that energy somewhere. And so he and I both rebelled in our own ways. And for me, it was selling drugs in my school and dropping a f-ball. In your book, you talk about Buddha and how he came to be and suffering. And it was just like so insightful. Did you like grow up Christian, but then become Buddhist essentially? Or was that just something that you like gained a lot of, you know, ideas in your belief systems from? So I was raised Christian. I think around age like 13 or 14, I kind of, I just, I kind of stopped believing in it. But I got curious about a lot of other religions. And so then I got very curious about Buddhism and got, it was very into Buddhism. I'd say from like age 19 to 25, meditated a lot, we'd go on retreats and studied a lot of it. Buddhism has been very influential on me from like kind of an intellectual philosophical point of view. It really wasn't until I was in my 30s that I started to really appreciate how much Christianity has been influential on me. Yeah, I think it took me until I was like 35 to start coming back around and noticing all of the just like the seeds that came from church and came from Christianity and being exposed to it at such such an early age. So those two are like very strong influences in my work. And it's funny because like I still technically like consider myself an atheist, although I joke on my podcast that I'm like the most pro-religion atheist there probably is. Like I, why is that? Well, I think it's just, I think religion, it just serves of a very useful and psychologically important function for people. And it's, I think, atheists tend to underestimate how much faith they're putting in other things. Like I honestly think like humans are just wired to have faith in something. Yeah. And there's a good argument for directing that faith towards one of these kind of ancient mythological structures and sets of morals and practices with 2000, you know, 3000 years of history, 2000 years of history, I think there's like a very strong argument for that. Because if you don't place it somewhere, you, you could very likely place it somewhere very destructive and harmful, right? So I think like a lot of people have replaced religion with politics. I think a lot of people have replaced religion with economic pursuits and materialism. I think in my industry a lot of people have replaced religion with self-help and like quote unquote like personal growth and spirituality and whatnot. And, and I just think it's like a lot of these other things. There are a lot of bad side effects and a lot of them are kind of untested and I think a lot of people kind of lose themselves in them. I actually have a lot of appreciation for what religion does both like in terms of an individual's psychology and happiness and also like the communities that it fosters for people like because I just, that's the biggest thing that I miss when I think about my childhood is like I, I think about the community that my parents had around them. And I'm frankly I'm envious like I don't have that in my life. And most people I know are age, don't have that in their lives, right? So if you don't mind me asking what have you replaced religion with in your life? Sorry, that was deep, that was like, yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question. The short answer is I've, I think I've replaced it with philosophy. I've spent most of my adult life reading and thinking about a lot of philosophy and thinking very deeply about like what my ethics are and what principles I believe in and what beliefs I have about the universe. But like I also recognize that I don't necessarily think they're any better or worse than anybody else's, right? So it's, there may be a little bit more grounded and a little bit more like logically consistent and challenged, you know, because most of the philosophers, I'm a huge fan of their ideas have been around for centuries, but yeah, I think what philosophy lacks and that I definitely feel like I lack in my life is, is that social component, that community, right? The ritual of it, the practice of it, like the fact that you know, like if you're, if you're taking communion on Easter, it's like people have been doing this for 2,000 years, right? The exact same thing that you're doing, there's, there's a certain amount of like significance and meaning that comes with that that, I don't think you can replicate with like a yoga seminar out in Malibu or, you know, 100% or even a philosophy course, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Reading the classics. Something you mentioned that surprised me and I would think would maybe surprise other people listening to this podcast is you saying like that there's some dangers potentially around like self-help and seeing that, that's like what the topic of your book, it may kind of fit in that category, probably it like Barnes and Noble, it's under that section, like, I think that's surprising, like I'm curious, like what, what do you think are some of the dangers around self-help and like that kind of phenomenon? I do think there are a lot of drawbacks and it's funny because like, subtle art was in many ways, it was written as a counter-argument to a lot of the self-help industry. Like I just, I felt like I, there was a lot of bad assumptions and bad behavior going on in the market and I was, and subtle art was very intentionally kind of a middle finger to it of like, guys, this is nonsense, right? This idea that you can just be happy all the time and, you know, everything's great and awesome. Like, no, life doesn't work that way and in fact, if you try to, if you-- If you try to think that way, you're just going to become this delusional loony tune who's completely detached from reality, or this idea that you can be perfectly internally validated and never worry about what other people think about you. There's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think about them. It's called a psychopath, and we don't want to be psychopath, right? You should care what your partner thinks about you, you should care what your kids think about you. That matters, so the question isn't, how do you stop caring what people think about you? The question is, is like, who do you care what they think about you, and how are you, what are the reasons that you care? Because they're of good and bad reasons to compare yourself to others. If you look at a role model, or a hero, or something, it's like, yeah, you should compare yourself to that person, because it's inspirational. It encourages you to become a better person. Like a lot of my work is kind of just pointing out those counterarguments to people. In terms of specifically, some of the damage that I see, see, see done. The simplest way to put it is that I would say that real happiness is not always pleasant. Real happiness is often difficult, challenging, and painful. I think what this market promises, self-help in general, it kind of, it gets like a drug dealer almost. It gets people hooked on constantly pleasant feelings, right? So it's like, if you do this practice, you'll always feel good. If you meditate this way, you'll always feel good. If you just ignore all the people who don't like you, then you'll always feel good. It's actually really encouraging people to become very narcissistic and self-indulgent in the name of being happy or whatever. I often see people who spend a lot of time in this industry become very, very narcissistic in a way, and it's, yeah, it's not good. Since writing the book, it's almost been a decade, which is crazy. Has anything changed as far as the values you have? This question is actually very appropriate, because the 10th anniversary is coming up next year, and we're going to do a 10th anniversary edition. So part of that edition is I'm going to give the book a minor revision and kind of go through and decide if there's anything I want to keep or change or expand or whatever or rewrite. And I haven't done that yet, but I've kind of gone back and skimmed through the book. I mean, I will say this, like all the big ideas I stand behind, I still believe I wouldn't really change any of the macro statements. Most of the stuff that I'm probably going to end up changing, we're going to be very minor frasings and line rewrites, and I just think there's probably better ways to express certain ideas, or maybe certain things need a little bit more elaboration and other things, maybe cut a couple lines out. So that's my expectation, but the short answer is, no, I pretty much stand by everything. And especially the radical responsibility piece, coming back to what my faith is, right? So the school philosophy that I identify with is existentialism. And existentialism's core precept is the meaning of your life is what you make of it. We all have a limited amount of time, and in that limited amount of time, we all have to make choices of how we spend it. And you have no option in that. Even if you don't do anything, that is a choice that you're spending your time on not doing anything, right? So it's like at any given moment, you are constantly making a choice of what to spend your time on, what to spend your attention on, what to put your intention behind, whatever you choose that is indicative of some sort of prioritization, right? So, you know, the fact that you guys are here, it like indicates that you, that this podcast is important to you, that it is, it is a high priority for you. And so you organize other parts of your life around it. And the fact that you are always making those choices, no matter what, no matter if good things happen to you, bad things happen to you, other people are nice to you, other people are horrible to you, you are always making those choices in every single moment, like what matters to you? What is your priority? There is a responsibility that comes with that. You guys could walk outside of this studio and God forbid, you know, it's like a get hit by a car. And it's, it's not your fault that that happens, but it's still your responsibility. You chose to be here. You chose to travel. You got kids back home. You got it, like you've got to get better. You got to recover, like it's, in every moment, you, you have that option to make a choice of what to pay attention to, how to react to what happens to you, what you're going to learn for it, what intentions you're going to have. And so there is just this permanent state of responsibility that we all live within. And that's intimidating. It's scary. Like it's because if you, if you make the wrong choices or you prioritize the wrong things, guess who's fault it is, right? Yes. And, and people don't like to think about that. So, so we find ways to pretend that it's not our responsibility. We're like, oh, well, it's not my fault. Oh, no, it's, you know, it's the economy. Oh, it's the, that guy's, he's mean to me because he's jealous. Oh, she's an idiot, right? Like it's, we pretend that there are all these things controlling our lives outside of ourselves. And while we are influenced by things outside of ourselves, it is always ultimately our responsibility to choose in every single moment what matters and what does not. I really resonate with your book. I really resonate with the values that you lay out in it. And something that honestly, I didn't expect to happen at, in my 20s, was becoming a dad. Like we just kind of got married young, had kids young. And at first, it was like really hard and I was like, what the frick did I do? This is, this is the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. But now it's become the best thing in my life. Like there's no, like last night, even though maybe it's a little annoying that I don't get the best sleep right now because my three-year-old is like wanting to sleep in our bedroom. And sometimes sleep in the bed with us because he just gets scared. It is so sweet when I like look over at my, at my kid. And he like just says to me and then I like, love you dad. Like it's just like, it's turned me into, it just like melts my heart that I have this sweet little boy who looks up to me and thinks I'm, thinks I'm a superhero. Like the disappointment band, maybe a better superhero than the disappointment band. And so yeah, I guess the question I want to ask you, which if this is too personal, we can completely edit this out. But like, is having kids something that you want to, like, see in your life, is having kids something that you want to, like, see in your life? That ship is sailed, at least in my, in my marriage. My wife and I were in our forties at this point. And it's, it's interesting because I wanted kids for a while and, and we tried for a while. And it kind of didn't happen. And then we kind of reached this point where it's like, okay, if it's going to happen, it's going to be a lot of work. You know, you're going to have to do the whole, harvest the eggs and IVF and all this stuff. And my wife took a look at it and she's like, honestly, this is a lot. You know, she's had health problems over the years. So she's just like, I don't know if I'm up for this. And I realized in that moment, I was like, you know, I could see a version of my life where I'm a dad and it's full of meaning and extremely exciting and interesting and challenging and, and has a lot of purpose to it. But I can also see a version of my life without kids and I can see a ton of meaning, ton of joy, a lot of interesting challenges, a lot of meaningful work. I realized I was like, I was kind of okay with it. Kids are what I have observed is that, you know, there's one of the chapters in some of our just called happiness is overrated. And I think you could kind of summarize the chapter by saying that happiness is overrated and purpose is underrated, like a sense of meaning or a sense of like a reason to get up in the morning. I think is is underrated. And the thing about purpose is that it's, it's often unpleasant. It's often hard. You don't sleep well, right? Like, oh God, your kids haven't a meltdown again and like, they're like throwing a tantrum and making a mess everywhere and you're like, oh, this again, right? But it's even though it's not pleasant, it's meaningful. And I think at the end of the day, people crave meaning more than they crave pleasure. And my observation is that kids are probably the fastest and most direct route to a sense of purpose. Even though it's hard, even though there are many days where you're like, oh my God, I'd give anything to just like take off the Fiji or something and like have a week to myself. It's, there is that very intense sense of purpose and meaning that it's very hard to replicate anywhere else. Wow. That's, that's actually really cool that you're saying that because I, like I've just experienced that in my own life. Yeah. I, not that I want my kid to be, like in no way should they feel the weight of like, I've got to make sure my dad's mental health is okay because I'm like, I'm his reason to get up in the morning. But it really has been so good for me to be a dad, especially with like some personal things I've gone through over the past like two years. Right now I'm like getting off antidepressants and it's like just the whole, the whole dad thing has really brought a purpose in meaning of my life that I never thought I would have. That's very interesting actually. Do you think, do you think those two things are directly related the antidepressants in the kids? No. Okay. No, no. It wasn't because I had kids that I got on antidepressants that I was like a whole other thing completely outside. No. And getting off. Oh. Actually, yeah. Actually, I feel like I like right now one of my purposes. in my life is fingering out to be like I want to be the best version of myself so that my kids can look up to me and like I can be a leader for them and they like I don't want to make stupid decisions that might be like fun or exciting in the moment that are then gonna like I don't know cause damage in life later that like then my kids could look at me and be like oh yeah my dad like my I hate my dad he did this my like I want to be a good person for my kids to look up to it's interesting like most people assume that depression is kind of a lack of joy or happiness but it's actually a lack of purpose right like it's 100% and it's funny because when somebody's depressed their friends and family are like you know let's go get pizza let's watch the game you know it's like very like kind of little superficial but it's like really what that person's lacking is just like a deeper like they need a reason to get up right yeah it's just like okay what show me something that matters and and so it's interesting that the that those two things are kind of happening at the same time the other thing you know we were talking earlier about like not caring what other people think and probably the most common question I get in my events is like people will stand up no like how do I stop giving what other people think and my answer is always like you can't you are always gonna care what other people think the question is is what do you care about more than what other people think right like what do you care about more than yourself being liked what are you willing to be disliked for and I think another thing that children do for a lot of people is is and maybe this is true for you but like it's often the first thing in their life that they're like this is more important than me like I will be disliked for this right like I will I will I will I don't care what people think because I like I'm gonna do what's right for for my kids I want to talk a little bit this is kind of going back a little bit but I think it was really humble of you to talk about how something you envy that your parents had even though growing up you're like I didn't have like necessarily envy their marriage right but you envy the fact that they like had community and I listened to your podcast on making friends as an adult and it kind of it reminded me of that and I think that's a big conversation today because as you touched on your podcast like I feel like we're getting lonely or in lonely or as people what's the statistics audit you have a better right it's awful I don't have it off the top of my but it's like awful yeah like we're like getting lonely or in lonely and it seems like I feel like a lot of people especially an art age group find themselves lonely maybe for like some of the first times in their life because like you have all these institutions usually like elementary school middle school high school college and it was like kind of organized for you can find yourself lonely and those things too but especially like once you're I feel like college happens you're like dumped and you're like go and then you're all of a sudden maybe in a workplace where you're like not the same age as your co-workers or maybe you're working remotely a lot for yeah and so um listening to that podcast was very interesting for me because I would describe you as very logical would you say that yes like why do we do the thing why do we have friends like what's the purpose of friendship yeah because me I would say I'm not logical now would you say that oh I feel logical what do you mean by that right now I feel like I go on based on like feelings right like I'm like oh this just feels good and like this feels I don't know but I feel like your intuition is good that like I always go to you I'm like Abby what's your take on this person we just met and then she'll tell me like how she felt no really I feel like you you have a really good read of character I think of a good judge of character you really do thank you but the like a lot of your conversation is around like the purpose of friendship and like why as humans like we have friendship and like largely like a larger community the like scientific question why humans have friendships is really fascinating because a lot of species don't a lot of species are not various like the they're everybody's a loner they don't stay in groups or packs or if they do it's only families right so it's like the humans are quite unique in that we spend a very large percentage of our time with people and we care very deeply about people who are not related to us that's relatively rare in the animal kingdom so when evolutionary biologists and psychologists looked at this like it was actually quite a big conundrum and without getting too nerdy into all the math it really turns out that it it's kind of funny like physically we're we're pretty mediocre in the animal kingdom like we're most of the other it apes and primates are much stronger than us most other mammals are faster than us we don't really climb very well we can't run very well like where our eyesight's not great our sense of smell's not great the really the thing that we have is just we have really really big brains and those brains allow us to coordinate across lots of people to remember um you know you did this for me and so I'm going to do this for you and um and you have this sort of reputation so I'm going to talk to you a certain way and talk to you a different way because of your reputation that's kind of our superpower in terms of yeah in terms of the species why did we evolve that well it's interesting because there's if you think of an insurance company like really what you're doing is you're pulling risk together let's say you and I are in a tribe with a hundred people and we want to go hunt an elephant and if we catch the elephant it's going to feed the entire tribe for like a week but chances are really slim like it's probably we're probably like 90% chance where we're gonna fail now if it was just you and me like that would be a hugely risky endeavor we run the risk of starving we run the risk of our family starving so you can't really you don't really have the option to go do it but if you have a hundred people and let's say 90 of them are like picking berries and eating shrubs or whatnot and they're able to cover the food needs of everybody else then that frees us up to go take a huge risk and go hunt a big elephant and try to find something that's going to have like this huge reward for the group and so it's it's kind of this like risk reward calculation within human nature that is the reason that friendships emerge right like it's it's if you are able to rely on a network of people who care about you and who you've done good things for and you and you trust that they're going to do good things for you it allows you to go take bigger risks in life it allows you to like go start that company or move to that new place or ask out that that person that you feel like is out of your league because it's like if it if you get shot down and fail like you know there are people who are you're still going to get your needs met you're in the prehistoric days it was your physical needs that we're just still going to be met in these days it's your your emotional and social needs are still going to be met it's cliche but like we are all stronger together it in it there is like a very evolutionary and biological proof that the reason we are such a dominant species is because we are social and we were able to rely on each other and build relationships with each other so it's like friendship is an unequivocally universally good thing it's like very much hardwired into our nature we need friends it's actually for our mental health and our psychological well-being in many ways it's more important than a romantic relationship if you take a person who has a romantic relationship with no friends they're probably going to have much worse health and psychological outcomes than a person who has plenty of friends and no romantic partner the person with no romantic partner but plenty of friends is actually probably going to be a very happy well-adjusted human the person with a romantic partner and zero friends is not so it is is like so fundamental to our nature and and I just think that gets lost these days like people don't don't like I think we just take it for granted and it's it's been really interesting to especially like the last three or four years because friendship content was like never really a thing in my industry like people just there wasn't much demand for it and but like since the pandemic it's crazy it's just like people people are craving it and people are showing up and they're like how do I make a friend how do I keep a friend right like how do I meet more people I don't like I have nothing to do I don't know anybody and it's it's kind of like a very very startling recent trend that is that is shown up yeah I think it's a good thing too and like the practical application in like today's world like our tribes now like you kind of expanded on later on that podcast is the tip for tat thing and so what does that look like in today's age like is it going first and being like hey like I'm going to show up for you here or is it like how do people apply that now yeah yeah like okay how do we start this this episode is brought to you by square your favorite neighborhood spots run on square I think as a parent we're constantly thinking of ways that we can kind of give our kids a little bit more responsibility independence and honestly household lemonade stand is kind of a staple in a child's life but think about how much more awesome it is with square yes exactly like think about you're seeing a bunch of kids selling lemonade you're like oh I don't have cash on your cash but you're like I got my credit card and 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The biggest fact, like the most important of those really is that that exposure. And if you think of you, you mentioned school, right? Like if you think about when we're growing up, school by its very nature, you are forced into proximity with hundreds of other kids, your exact same age, you have plenty of things in common. You're doing all the same thing at the same time. And then you see each other all day every day for years. So it's like friendship is, it's almost inevitable in a school environment. And which is great. Like kids should have that. And we have that up through college and university. But then like you said, you get dumped in the real world. And suddenly you are in this like highly dynamic environment. Everybody's like running in a different direction doing their own thing. And nobody's ever explained to you like how this is supposed to work, like how you're supposed to make a friend as an adult. And what complicates it even more is that the most common places that people used to make friends, which was church, workplace, and then community, like being neighbors. All three of those things have been like incredibly disrupted over the last 20 years, right? So church attendance and really religiosity is all time low. Workplace. So I think there was a statistic, I think back in like the 1970s, the average job duration. Like if you took a job at a company, I think on average you would be at that company for nine years. Today it's less than two years. It's like 18 months, right? So so people are switching jobs every 18 months. So it's like by the time you even get to know your co-workers, you're like you're going somewhere else and you're moving on. People change people move and change cities more often than ever before. And then of course people are working from home. So it's like you're not even seeing your co-workers much less like getting to know them. So it is like all the traditional means of people having proximity and frequent exposure to other people are essentially like removed from our lives in the 2020s. So we just don't even have that that baked in repetition. And it's funny because kind of the conclusion drew and I came to on that on that episode is that I think people overestimate how much you have to have in common with somebody to be friends with them. And they underestimate just how much exposure you have to have. Like if you have two people who are who are like really just like have some basic commonalities like we both like the watch football and like all like. But you put us in the same room for 50 days in a row will probably become friends. Whereas like I think people these days that they're like oh no they like we have to have everything in common and have the same beliefs and values and want to do the same things and be able to travel together and all this stuff. And it's like no most of that stuff doesn't actually doesn't even matter. Our friend group that we've essentially developed over the past year is really just built off of the women that Abby works out with at the gym. And they will happen to work at a gym where there's free child care. All these moms can bring their kids and we all have kids the same age. And then the dads we've all become friends too. So now we hang out. And then our kids start playing on a soccer team together. And so now we've kind of like entered this stage of life where you know in in a way I guess I guess the mom's first banded together. But like our kids friend like we're our friends are the parents of our kids friends. Well we kind of orchestrated that because they're two and three. But actually that episode had me thinking because you you brought up how what could disrupt a friendship is if someone like you're gonna say this so much better than me. But if someone it's correct me if I'm wrong. It has like perceived higher success than the other person. It can go either way correct. And so I was like then you talked about the things like whatever that's measured and you gave the example of like someone that plays professional golf if someone like makes it big all of a sudden and that was like how you deemed yourself successful at life that you can't hardly be friends with them at that yeah. And so it had me then like deep diving like what is it that we all are measuring as success that just happens to be aligned. But I think that's very interesting. And that's it's the other thing I think that complicates all of this right. So if you think back to when you're in high school or college everybody's on the same level. Yeah. Like everybody's you're the same age. You have no life experience. You're broke your whole futures in front of you. So like that's true. There's like zero status. You all have no money. Yeah. Like there's no measurement going on. Like nobody's nobody's decisions and choices are being worn on their sleeve. Like that's the thing that changes once you once you hit 30 or 40. Everybody's decisions are now being worn on their sleeve. Like you can see how things turned out for them. And if you are somebody who cares a lot about something like let's say you are somebody who wants to make a lot of money. And suddenly some of the guys you went to high school with are making more than you like that gets weird. And there starts to be like this weird jealousy or feeling or you know or it's and it can be about anything like it's it can be you know one person in the episode I used golf. But like it could be like somebody who you know really wanted to want to have a bunch of kids and then didn't have kids right. And then it's like their best friend has a bunch of kids and now it gets weird because it's everybody measures themself with a with an internal yard stick. And so if you start seeing yourself fall behind on that yardstick to the people around you, you get insecure. And that starts complicating everything. Yeah. From the people that you've spoken to about purpose and life. Have you noticed more of a common trend in life satisfaction with people having friends or people that like you said earlier, our parents because you said he says me about how having kids brings, you know, a purpose and meaning to life for a lot of people. So in psychology, the psychological literature itself. Psychology is measure quality of life on three different metrics. So the first one is is basically just like a consistent sentiment. Like how are you feeling day to day? Are you generally happy? Do you feel good or like things going well? It's very short term. It's kind of like more it's mostly pleasure, right? Yeah. Like are you happy today? Scale from one to 10. And you're like, yeah, I had pizza and watched a good movie. Like sure, I'm a nine, you know, and it's that's kind of the most superficial metric. And it's interesting because a lot of happiness research quote unquote is based on that very short term sentiment based metric. So there's like some famous research that says that actually kids make people miserable. And it's well, yeah, because they measured them on that like short term. Like how are you feeling today? I was scared. And it's like, well, I slept three hours last night and the baby's crying again. So I'm a three. Yeah, thank you very much. If you see that viral chapel row and clip from her on call her daddy where she's like, all my friends with kids are. So I mean, it's it's true. Like I mean, you guys know it's like that first year. Yeah. Yeah. So it's so there's that metric, right? And then there's a second metric, which is life satisfaction. Generally, the question they ask in the surveys is on a scale from one to 10 with 10 being the best possible life you can imagine for yourself. Like where are you right now? Most people say around a seven. That's kind of like a medium term metric, just because generally, like if if if somebody's asking you, you know, how good is your life in general? How good do you feel about your decisions? Chances are you're mostly thinking about probably the last five or 10 years and maybe the next five years. I understand that is a long time, but like it can get much larger. So the the third metric is that's the purpose in meaning metric. So it's like, do you feel like how much purpose or meaning do you feel like you have in your life? Generally, the best way to think about that is like, if you died, how much do you feel like you're leaving to the world? Like how much of an impact do you think you've had on on the world, the universe? That's so deep. What legacy are you leaving, right? And that's why kids are so powerful, right? Because it's like even if something happens to you, you know that they're going to live on and that you've like major imprint on them. And they're going to go on and do things that you can't even imagine. And that's just like such a deep level of meaning and profundity that like you can't really match that with, um, it's a completely different scale or measurement, right? So it's it's funny. Generally, you asked about parents versus friendships. Yeah. So parents, uh, generally they score low on those first, the first metric for sure. They're like, uh, I need sleep. And oh my God, if my six-year-old doesn't stop talking about dinosaurs, I'm going to like jump out of a window. But if you ask them about purpose, they're like, no, I feel a lot of purpose in meaning. Like, it's, no, I feel like, I feel like every day matters. Whereas if you ask somebody, say, with a lot of friends or a really fun social life, generally, they'll score much higher on those first two measures, right? So they're like, yeah, I'm having a great time. I just have this great trip. You know, went surfing with my friends and they may even score, you know, they generally score higher on life satisfaction as well. But, you know, purpose and meaning is a deeper, longer term thing that it's really hard to access, I think. It's like very few things get at it. I really think it's like career, family, religion, and like, the list isn't much longer than that. - As someone that is not having kids and, you know, probably at this point won't be having kids from what we talked about. How do you fill in that gap in your life? Where do you drive that purpose and meaning that a lot of people get from having children from in your own life? - For me, it's very much my career. I find my work extremely meaningful and I find a lot of purpose in it. And when it was clear that we weren't gonna have kids, like, I kinda looked at my life and I'm like, all right, I was just given a massive amount of time over the next 18 years, right? 'Cause there's all this time that most people are gonna be spending raising kids, time in an energy that I'm gonna have that for myself, right? So I ask myself, I'm like, what is meaningful that I can invest this into? That legacy question, like, what can I leave behind that's gonna be impactful? And for me, the simplest answer is work. So I mean, I've always been a little bit of a workaholic, but like, I mean, it's been much more conscious the last few years of like, hey, I've got a great thing going and I'm like, in a very privileged, unfortunate position to have this platform and have this audience and have this skill set and this knowledge. And so I'm just gonna work my ass off to make the most of it and try to like, leave the world a better place. - If you could sum it all up, is that the legacy you want to leave is just leaving this world whenever you die, whenever that happens, you wanna leave it better than you found it? Is that kind of how you sum it up? - Yeah, then that's it. Thank you to NutriFull for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. It is the new year. We are making a lot of promises to ourselves and the thing is, I don't wanna be a Debbie Downer. But resolutions come and go, but real lasting growth does take time. And that's why I love that NutriFull isn't promising a miracle in 30 days because that's honestly just not realistic. They're here to help you grow your hair and confidence from within one day at a time. - NutriFull is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, trusted by over 1.5 million people. 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I was actually listening to your book Unautable and I, I like had this random thought popping in my head of kind of wanna, like, experience seeing, like, I don't know if it's like an old person or a family friend or what, but like, I want to experience one's final moments, like, as weird as that is, 'cause I feel like it gives much perspective and I don't know. Like, I hope that I'm not alone when I die one day. That'd be really sad to be, like, literally by yourself in a hospital room, no one's there. And you're like, all right, peace out world. Like, I don't know. Have you ever, is that something that you want to experience? (laughing) - You talk 'cause you're talking about death a lot, right? - I do talk about death a lot. - I think it's the first line in your, in the trailer for the movie. - Yes. - Says, you're gonna die. - Yes. (laughing) - Well, it's been, so I think one of the things that is maybe, a little bit unique in my life, I think I was exposed to a lot of death inadvertently, like at a young age. So, I lost all of my grandparents by the time I was 14, or 15, I had two classmates die in high school. I had one of my closest friends die first year of college. And that one I was there. By the time I was 20, I'd basically been around or had like five or six people I like really cared about. - Holy cow. - Who had died. Which, you know, when you're young, you like, you don't realize these things are not normal. - Yeah. - But it, I think it did make me think about this a lot, a lot more, especially a lot more than most young people. I think also part of what drew me to Buddhism is that Buddhism is very, they talk very bluntly about death quite a bit. Like there is no afterlife in Buddhism. So, you know, it is, it's, in Buddhism life is just an illusion, and actually death is like kind of, it's like a cessation of the illusion, right? And in Buddhism, they say that meditation is your, you are practicing how to die by relinquishing all of your thoughts and all of your attachments. - Whoa, I've never heard that before. - Yeah, it's pretty intense. And on, like, it's crazy too. So the Buddhist Center that I studied at when I was in college, one of my meditation teachers, her specialty, I forget what it's called, but there's like a certain name for it. But her specialty is like, she like helps people die. So she would go to hospitals and like offer her services. Like, you know, like basically go to the, whatever the part of the hospital is, where people are dying. And she would go from patient to patient and essentially offer her services, say, like, hey, I specialize. Like, you know, I can help you peacefully go and like be at peace with it. And there are all sorts of like meditations and chants and stuff that she would do with people, you know, like thought exercises to like help them relinquish, like let go and like be okay with it. So it's like hardcore. - Yeah, no, that's scary. You know, like, my brain right now is like fighting between like thinking intellectually about this and then like the deep fear that I think I, and probably so many other people have of like, death is a really freaking scary thing. - Yeah, I mean, she was hardcore. I mean, I remember when she told me about it, I was like, I have so much respect for you, holy crap. Like anybody who can do that. And like, I mean, it's just like a voluntary service, right? Like, you know, she just go to the hospital on a Wednesday night and be like, all right, who's dying. Let me go. Let me go hold their hand. - She should volunteer to do that. - Yeah. - It's a sacred thing in like Buddhist theology that like that passing from this life. It's like a very special moment. And obviously it's scary. And like everybody recognizes that it's really scary. And so there's, you know, in that world, there's a lot of value and importance and just like helping people through the process. - That got like really deep. Thank you for sharing that. So maybe we, maybe we like, don't talk about that. - I'm gonna talk about Mary. - Yeah, can we talk about marriage? You're a married guy. You love death and marriage, all right? - You seem to love being married. - I'm dead. - You think you're dead? Let's rewind a little bit. (laughing) I was shagging. I was shagging to some people on your team. And they seemed to think that like, you have a really happy, healthy marriage. - This is a really high compliment. You should know this. And they were like saying that you and your wife have like one of the sweetest marriages that they've witnessed. - That's cute. - So that's a really high compliment. - Yeah. - And I saw on one of your like most popular rules is about marriage being a long conversation. Like finding a good partner has, like can you talk about that a little bit? - That's, so there's a great quote from Nietzsche, who ironically was never married. - Are many philosophers married? - A lot of them were not. - Yeah, I kind of feel like they were. - They're in their thoughts a lot. - Is that being married hard? Because you're like a philosopher? And yeah, I don't know why you're doing this. - You're probably hard to be around. (laughing) If you're that smart and that philosophical, just like analyzing everything all the time, I could see how you'd be annoying to be around. But yeah, no, Nietzsche has this amazing quote, where he said that, he said marriage is a long conversation. So be sure that you're marrying somebody you want to. You'll never get tired of talking to. And I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. that because it's pretty much like almost anything you want or like or desire in a partner. It's probably temporary to some extent, right? It's like everything comes and goes. People are, there's going to be good times, there's going to be bad times, there's going to be hard times, there's going to be easy times, there's going to be like times where things are going super well for your partner and bad for you and times that things are going great for you and bad for your partner, there's going to be health problems, psychological problems, aging problems, family problems, social problems, like all this stuff is going to happen. And what I take his quote to mean is just that like as long as you inherently in love the communication you have with each other, then nothing else matters, you can kind of ride the wave of anything that happens, anything that comes and goes. And it's really, I think the core of a good marriage is a really, really strong friendship, just the genuine satisfaction of being together and just talking to each other. Because as long as you have that communication, everything else is kind of figure outable, I think. And one of your clips you mentioned dating apps and how like a lot of them are maybe counterproductive to like what people want to do because it's like these filters that you're putting on aren't long term going to suit you when it comes to like finding that like lifelong friendship that marriage requires. And so did you meet your wife on a dating app or how did you do this to work? It's really funny because we met, so we met in 2012, tender came out like six months later. Okay. And it was funny because when tender came out like it was such an exciting thing like it never existed before, right? So it's like, it was just this new novel thing and all of our friends were using it and they're like, oh my god, this is crazy. I'm getting so many dates. And I remember when my wife and I were dating and we kind of joke, we're like, do you want to take like a month break so we can like try this tender. It's like, we used to joke about it and now, I mean, within a few years, we're like, oh my god, thank god we met before the apps were around because it's just, it's so hard out there now. And it's it. I think they've, they've actually been very counterproductive. And I think the reason why is I don't think people actually have an accurate sense of what is going to make them happy with a partner. In fact, I know people don't have an accurate sense. And I also like, there's research that backs us up like if you, if you actually take people's criteria for what they want in a partner and give it to them, like, they're not, it's not predictive at all of like how much you actually gel with the person or how attracted you in the person. We don't know our own types. We don't. We really don't because so much of it is happening unconsciously. It's happening at an emotional level. And so much of it is just like, it's very intangible to a chemistry that you can't really describe. You just feel it when it's there. And I just know this too from my own experience. Like, I don't know about when you get, when you guys met, but like, there are multiple girls that I dated or like girlfriends that I had that, that when I first met them, I was just like, eh, you know, but then it's like you, you spend more time with them. You hang out with them and you're like, well, she's kind of cute and like, and then you see her again. And you're like, okay, yeah. No, that's, I'm actually, I'm kind of into her, right? And it like, it like grows and evolves over time. Like, when I think about my girlfriend from, from college, like, I never would have picked her on a dating app. We had a great two, three year relationship. She was like hugely impactful on my life. Never would have picked her on a dating app. And it's funny too, because when, when my wife and I met, she, she initially shot me down. There's something to that. I feel like there really is. There really is. There really is. Yeah. Interesting. Well, I thought you should know that compliment from your team. That is very nice of them. Because, you know, they see you guys probably a lot and not necessarily in romantic environments and work. Yeah. But so that's really sweet. My wife's awesome. And, uh, and yeah, I feel very good about my marriage. It's been something about marriage that you've learned recently or something that kind of surprised you. It's a good question. I, you know, marriage has this reputation that things get dull and repetitive. And I think when we were younger or maybe when we had just gotten married, we are a little bit worried about that. We're like, no, we're never like, we're going to keep things fun and interesting. We're going to do cool things together and, and all this. And it's funny because like, now we're in our 40s and it has gotten kind of dull and repetitive, but we're still happy. Like that's the funny thing is, is she and I talk sometimes we're like, we've become kind of boring, but like, we're just as happy as we always were. That's really sweet. And, and in a way, it's even better, right? Because it's like, okay, if I can still be happy, like, literally just sitting on the couch all day with her, reading a book, like, awesome. Who needs to go to Mexico or like, go to a concert or something? You talked about this, we're like, love versus romance. I feel like there's like an application here too. Yeah. And it's interesting too. This came up when we were doing our podcast episode on, on happiness. I thought it was really interesting that happiness is very cultural. Like it's different cultures have kind of a different perspective or definition of it. And one of the things that came up was that, generally speaking, Western cultures associate happiness with excitement and like peak experiences, you know, if you, if you kind of ask an American or a European, like, what's a really happy moment from the last year, they're probably going to say something like, oh, I went to this amazing show or a Disney. Yeah, yeah. I went to Disney World, or I, you know, my best friend surprised me with, you know, a party or whatever. In Eastern cultures, it's, they associate happiness with peace and calm. So if you ask like somebody from China or Japan, like what is the happiest moment recently, you know, it's, it's probably going to be like, oh, I, I woke up on a salary morning and, and, uh, you know, knitted for four hours, like, and it was very, it was beautiful outside. You know, it's like, it's something serene and calm. And I, I feel like there's something to that with romance as well. Like I think the Western notion of romance is like, it's like very dramatic and it's very exciting. So much passion and all this stuff. But like my experience with my wife is that actually like real, deep love is, it's peaceful. It's just, and it's kind of dull. Like it's, it's very, it's simple. It's very, very simple. Like on the, people, if people could see us from the outside, they'd be like, wow, those two are boring. But like, when, on the inside, like we're just, we're just happy, it's just, it's very satisfying. Like togetherness. How do you avoid the trap of keeping score in your marriage? Um, the scorecard, yeah, one of the, one of the, something I've been writing about for a long time, um, the scorecard in any relationship is just deaf. Like I, a simple way to put it is that like, if you, if you're keeping score in a relationship, you're both going to lose, right? Like you just have to understand that the score doesn't matter and over a long enough period of time, it's, it's going to even out, right? And there's going to be days and months and years where like one of you's not showing up as well as the other and it doesn't matter like because there's going to be another time where the other person is not showing up for a day or a month or a year. So it's, it's really like that, that isn't the say like, let yourself be taken advantage of. It just means like, don't hold on to things. Don't, don't like, don't use things as a way to bludgeon your partner, right? It's like if he screwed up last month, like, don't hold that over him when the next argument happens or vice versa, as soon as you start introducing a power dynamic into a relationship like that, like it is, it is the opposite of intimacy. Like intimacy in a many ways is just, it's the opposite of a power struggle. Yeah, because it's almost like you're viewing yourself as like two individuals or as like if you're not keeping squirts, like us as a unit accomplish this, which is like, I did this and you did this. Yeah. Yeah. You can either play on the same team or play against each other. Right. So it's, it's, you always make sure you're on, I have a friend, a friend of mine, she described it as like, make sure you're on the same side of the net, right? Yeah. You can play tennis as doubles or you can play tennis against each other. Like make sure you're on the same side of the net when you're fighting. Before you got married, did you guys date for a certain amount of years or how long did you wait to, I don't know if you like, waited to move in together until you got married? Like how did you navigate all of that? We dated for three and a half years? Well, no, four years, no, four and a half years. I think I proposed to her after three and a half. Okay. We met, so she's Brazilian, I met her in Brazil. That's so dope and it's been a few months there. We dated. I left. We kept in touch. She visited me. I went and visited her and then about six months later, I was like, oh my god, I think I need to move to Brazil. Did you move to Brazil? It didn't move to Brazil. No way. Yeah. So I lived there for two years. She moved in probably about after a year, year and a half. So the big thing was we wanted to travel the world together. Back then, my business was online so I was pretty flexible. I could go live in different places and travel quite a bit. So that's kind of what made it possible. But it was also clear, I couldn't stay there forever, visas expired and all sorts of stuff. And also I didn't want to live in Brazil. forever. So we kind of agreed that we would travel together at a certain point. She would take a sabbatical from her job and we would do like a little round the world trip. And she was very practical and smart. And she was like, you know, if we're going to travel the world together, we should probably live together first before we travel. And I was like, oh, yeah, it's actually really smart. So we the second year that I was in Brazil, she moved in. And honestly, like it was, it was pretty seamless. It wasn't, it wasn't a huge deal. Honestly, the, the big thing for me personally, like I had a huge hang-up about proposing. I was like super nervous about it and had a lot of resistance and anxiety around it. It wasn't entirely rational. Like it was, I don't know. I think it comes back to being too philosophical. Like I was just like analyzing it too much. And it was funny because we had been together for almost four years. She definitely wanted to get married and it was like dropping lots of hints. And my parents also want, like, they were like, dude, when are you going to put a fucking ring on it? And I was just agonizing. I'm like, oh, I don't know if it's she, like, how do I know? And is she really the one and all this stuff? And I remember I was talking to my dad and my stepmom one night and they were kind of getting on my case about not proposing. And I said exactly that. I'm like, you know, I, I love her. Everything's great. We're happy together. But like, how do I know I'm, I'm going to want to be with her for the rest of my life. And my stepmom just like looked at me like I was just the biggest idiot she'd ever seen in her life. And she was like, Mark Manson, I've been with your dad for 27 years. I still don't know if I want to be with him for the rest of my life. She's like, just buy the ring. It's, it's the intention. Like stop being an idiot. I was like, OK, yeah, that's actually a lot of wisdom. There's a lot of wisdom. You have just launched an app. So to back up and kind of set context for this, I was supposed to write another book this year. And I was going to, and what I noticed starting last year is like everybody in my life was like going to chat GPT to like get advice and ask for life questions. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. Like, let me play around with it. And so I started messing with it. And like, it's okay. Like sometimes it does well. But like, as you guys probably know, the problem with chat GPT is it just kisses your ass all the time. It's like, you say anything to it. Oh, that's brilliant. Oh my God. That's amazing. What a great question. You know, I could go to it and I'm like, Hey, I'm, I'm the queen of France. Like, how do I rule my kingdom? It's like, Oh, look at you. Good for you. Let's talk about your kingdom. There's no like tethering to reality. And I think when it comes to actually pushing yourself and learning and growing, you need people who are going to call you out, who are going to like point out like, Hey, like that might be a bad assumption or have you thought about it this way? Or have you noticed that you say this, but your behavior is not matching that. What's up with that? Right? Like you need somebody to kind of compassionately push you and challenge you. I kind of became like obsessed with this problem. And I eventually met my co founder who's built a number of AI companies and talked to him about it. And they're like, yeah, this needs to exist because it's like literally hundreds of millions of people are going to chat GPT. They're asking for life advice. They're probably not getting great life advice. Right? So it's like, if people are going to do this, there should be something on the market that is actually designed for this use case. Yeah. And so that's why that's why we, we created the app. It's called Purpose. It has a free trial and the onboarding assessment, it like basically gives you like a personality report. My goal with it is that it like reads your soul in like five minutes and it's, it's pretty spooky. Got tons of emails from people or they're like, it's crazy how fast it pointed this out to me. It's like totally saw through all of my BS and pinpointed what my issue is like within minutes. So it is, I think AI when it's leveraged really well can be extremely powerful. And that's been the goal. And basically the goals to just have that, that tool available for as many people as possible. That's really cool. Yeah. I'm excited to see how it like changes over the years. I mean, yeah, I've even, even just using like a non niche AI like that. It's already been helpful for me. So I'm excited to try out purpose and kind of see what it like discovery. I like how to read my soul. Did disappointment Panda have anything to do with the purpose, the purpose that is definitely, his spirit is definitely in it. It's, it's funny too, because some of my fans have like message me and they're like, Oh, this is like this appointment Panda. It's funny. It can be a little harsh sometimes, but it's, I do think it is ultimately the goal of it is to tell you the things that you need to hear, but don't necessarily want to hear and point out some gaps and, and blind spots in each of us because we all have them. So I love it. I love it. Well, Mark, thank you so much for your time. Everyone go check out Mark's new app purpose. I think it's available now, right? Yeah. It's available now purpose.app. And then I'm everywhere. So solve podcasts, episodes every week. And then we have, or almost every week. And then go markmanson.net, got newsletter. I'm on, I'm on everywhere. Good for you, man. That's, that's awesome. Well, I, clearly, your, your work is impacting so many people. Clearly, it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's meaningful to millions of people out there. So thank you for what you're doing. And, and this was a great conversation. Yeah, thanks for sitting down with us. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Thanks, Mark.