Mark Darbon: the R&A CEO navigating golf’s disrupted ecosystem

Hello and welcome to another episode of Leaders Worth Knowing the Sports Industry podcast from Leaders where we talk to the people worth knowing in the business of sport this week. I'm David Kushner, I'm the content director round here at Leaders on the Show today. It's a chat I recorded earlier this week with Mark Darben, the CEO of the RNA. Mark was up in St Andrews where the organisation is based and it's a fascinating organisation with a mission to grow the game of golf around the world. It's one of the governing bodies of golf alongside the US Golf Association developing and honing the rule book, the guardian of a single code for the rules, equipment standards, amateur status of the sport of golf. The RNA is also the organiser of the Open Championship, one of golf's four men's majors of course as well as the women's British Open, a host of other events as well at all levels of the game around the world. We dig into all of that in the conversation plus how the RNA is funded, where that money goes, technology and innovation at the Open Championship, the relationship between the RNA and golf's other major organisers including of course Augusta National and the Masters, the women's game and how it can be further developed, the relationship between professional golf and the amateur participation side of the sport and of course the wider professional golf landscape right now amid a swirl of speculation about live golf's future, changes coming at the PGA tour and a Brian Rolap's new leadership and the dynamics of the relationships between tours around the world more generally. Look has a really good perspective on all of this, he is relatively new to the game of golf in an executive sense, he became CEO at the RNA around 18 months ago after several years running English rugby union team Northampton Saints, so he's got a really broad and valuable perspective I think on the sports industry and some of the disruption and change that it faces. We also talk a little about leadership styles, about what brands get when they buy into the RNA and what Mark and his team look for when they work with agencies and third party suppliers. So I think you'll enjoy it plenty in here, let's tee off now with Mark Derben, the CEO of the RNA. Mark Derben, the CEO of the RNA is on the line, Mark, very good to see you and I'm assuming you're in St Andrews, so what is the scene in what might be the world of sports most picturesque office? It's not a bad spot here, nice to see you, I am looking out over the first and 18th holes of the old course, so it sort of gets you every time you come into this office, actually a pretty special place to work and privilege to be here. Fabulous, and for those who can't see, you've got a couple of very interesting pieces of silverware just sitting behind you, I think I recognise them. Yeah, indeed, I've got the Claret jug behind me and our AIG Women's Open trophy, obviously the two pinnacle events that we stage in our portfolio of championships and I guess a timely comment on them as we look ahead to championship season this summer. Yes, we're going to get into all of that. Maybe let's start, Mark, with the RNA itself and actually your role leading it. Just give an idea to everyone of what the remit of the organisation is because it serves several purposes. Yeah, I guess we're a somewhat unique organisation, the origins of the RNA can be traced back to 1754 and the formation of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of Sanandries. A unique golf club in many ways here at the home of golf in Scotland, a golf courseless golf club, so one of the misconceptions about the RNA is that we own and operate the old course here in Sanandries and the other brilliant things courses that I look out on. We don't, those courses are owned by the town and run and managed by a trust and the members of our golf club have access to them but we don't control them. And I think it's important to understand that history because our role in golf is evolved over the years. I think it was in the 1800s that the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of Sanandries was asked to codify the rules of golf and in many ways that signified the start of our journey as one of the global governing bodies within our sport. The modern organisation has evolved dramatically so we're now really club and group to separate about related organisations and I guess the easiest way to describe what the RNA group does is to refer to our new strategy. We see our role and remit as being here to open golf to the world. We believe in this brilliant sport, our golfs in our DNA, we want more people playing and engaging in golf in more places all around the world more frequently. We believe in the wonderful benefits that flow from golf to individuals and to communities. And through our role in remit in the sport we think we're uniquely placed to capitalise on the momentum that golf has right now. Specifically I guess we focus in three main areas. We try to unite the sport through our role in governing the game. We try to inspire millions of people to engage in the sport through staging world class championships. We've already touched on the open and the women's open but we stage up a broad portfolio of championships all around the world. And then we play a leadership role to try and shape golf's future in partnership with national federations and other bodies around the world. And that means investing into initiatives that drive participation and sustainability within our sport. We have three broad areas of focus that stem from our unique role, you know, as custodians of the game of golf. There's a lot in that and we'll try and impact some of it as we go through the conversation. But in terms of your role then heading up the organisation, where and how are you spending your time and how are you looking to prioritise? And I suppose what classic question, what does the average week look like for you? I spend the vast majority of my time on group activities and a lot of how I spend my time flows from the nature of our model. So essentially we generate the bulk of our revenue and pretty much all of our profit from one event, the open championship, about 80% of our revenue flows from that one event. And then we reinvest all of the profit back into the game. It's the profit from the open championship that funds our activities in government so that's setting and orchestrating the rules of goal, focusing, equipment standards in the sport, a role in shaping the world. Handicap system that's so unique to this game, leveraging the history and tradition of our sport, but being flexible and progressive to ensure that our governance model means golf is a game for all. And the profit flows from the open also underpins then our golf development activities, that point around leading to shape golf's future in a positive fashion. So we partner with nearly 170 national federations and other organisations around the world to drive initiatives that are focused on getting more people playing this sport. So we're very focused on initiatives to drive participation amongst underrepresented groups, particularly women and juniors. We invest into programs that ensure there's a sustainable future for golf courses given the focus on environmental sustainability across the sports industry and more broadly. We're investing into technology to future proof and enhance the sport. We work with federations to drive high performance programs to put the pathway that exists across the game. And then also because the open is our commercial driver, we can use some of those proceeds to stage other events. So whilst the open generates a really healthy profit for us, the women's open is an investment into our sport at the moment. We think it's a critical one. And on top of that, we stage 20 plus amateur events, so events that sit at the top of the tree in the elite amateur game of note, I would say in that space there are continental championships. So the Asia Pacific amateur, the Latin American amateur, the African amateur, both the males and females. Those events are really the pinnacle of the amateur game in those territories and create a strong pathway to professional golf thereafter. So a lot of my time is spent thinking about how we enhance the role the open plays to underpin our wider model. And then in particular on the relationship side, given that breadth of activity that I've just described, we have a really complex stakeholder web that spans significant geographic mix of markets. And so a lot of my time, as I say, is spent on the relationship side too. We're talking and I hate to remind you of this mark, but I think we're 85 or 86 days away from the first round of the open championship. Bill Burt del this year, of course, the championship moves around the country on a rotissystem. 85, 86 days out. What's keeping you up at night at the moment? Tell us, is everything on track for this year? Everything is on track, on time is on budget. I started my journey in sport working on the Olympics in 2012 in London and say that on time on budget, thought processes seared into my mind, I guess. No, we're in a good place actually really excited for the championship season that lies ahead. I mean, for the open, Burt del is a wonderful venue. It's a great golf course. I think it's stage the open, you know, 10 previous occasions. Tens to produce brilliant winners. We've had Arnold Palmer, Peter Thompson, Lietra Vino, Tom Watson, all win there. There's some changes that have been made to the golf course since we were last there when Jordan's feet won. So a new hole and some significant redesigns on a couple of the other holes, new practice ground. And so looking general, I would say I'm optimistic and excited rather than being kept up at night. I think the nature of what we do. In terms of the venues to which we take the open championship, means there are always some unique challenges. You know, we operate at Greenfield sites. We pop up a venue, often in challenging locations on challenging terrain. And in doing so, we try to deliver an experience that compares favorably with fixed venues given that the client groups are similar. We're trying to design a model that works for fans and broadcasts and media, obviously the athletes themselves. You know, compare and contrast, I guess, as a timely example. What we do versus what plays out at Augusta National for the Masters. You know, fixed venue versus a rotation, Greenfield site versus permanent infrastructure. But we're proud of that differentiation and think we do a good job on that front. We're a sport that's open to the elements. You know, you want whether the challenge is the players, but it doesn't ruin the spectator experience. It's a very specific amount of rain that you're looking for and wind. Yeah, let me talk about the open championship being forged by nature. You know, the elements are a big part of what we produce. It's one of our points of differentiation. And so you definitely want some weather to roll in. But as I say, you don't want that to interrupt or interfere with the spectator experience that we're very proud of. And I think the final thing is that are the nature of our sites. I mean, we always have some logistical challenges. Like the last mile to our venues is often complicated. We try to secure a large site at times. We're in semi remote locations. Actually, Burntale is better than most of our venues on that front, but can still be complicated. So we've got a great team and I'm excited for what's to come. You mentioned the masters. What do you make and what can you take from the masters as an event as a spectacle? Bearing in mind that the very different proposition that you have. How do you take in masters week when you're looking at it through the lens of somebody who is effectively in charge of organising another major? So I'm just back from almost two weeks out there. In the same way that the open is, the masters is a bit of a melting pot for the industry. So it's a full on 10 days or so out there. Many of the stakeholders across the game gather in the same way that they will at Burntale this summer. And you do get a really nice insight into that event. I grew up watching the majors in golf. So to have the chance to experience Augusta on the ground alongside the other events has been a real privilege in this role. There's a lot of things I think they do really well. They create a great experience for the different stakeholder groups that they're looking to manage. Could it clearly, things like the no-phone policy get a lot of attention? I can tell you that's a nightmare when you're running from one meeting to another, trying to locate people across the site. But I think it does lead to really strong engagement from their terms, the patrons that are on the site watching. But I think it's the attention to detail that always stands out for me. They have a lot of consistency and staff year on year. And that means they're well trained, they're well orchestrated, they greet you really effectively and personally with a personal touch. You know, when you arrive on site, they've got a couple of brilliant characters. There's a guy who's on the front gate as you drive in down Magnolia Lane who just gives you such a warm welcome every day. And you know, maybe she realised how important the people in volunteering and operational roles are to the success of these major championships. We spend months sweating on the details, but the first and often last touch point for most people that visit the site. So we're the volunteer. And so again, how does that translate for us? We're very thankful to the volunteer pool that we have that bring the open championship to life. I think the other thing I'd say is that we have a really strong relationship with Augusta National. We do a lot of work with them on some of our championships and across the governance of the game and our other activities more broadly. And so there's a lot of knowledge sharing. And so whilst I would say our two propositions in many ways can't look and feel more different on the ground, there's a lot of similarity in the way that we approach our proposition and the experience that we're trying to deliver. And I'll give you one specific example. So a lot was made this year of the new player facility that Augusta National invested into and it's a remarkable facility. But as they were shaping and designing that facility, they spent a lot of time with our team learning from what we've done with a pop-up facility at the open championship. We're consistently regarded by players and their support teams as delivering the best experience in golf throughout the course of the year in terms of the player experience during open championship week, something we're very proud of. And you could see some of the things that Augusta learned from us to influence their thinking. Now their translation of that is into a permanent facility that they're able to construct and then evolve year after year. So different contexts but lots of similarity and thought. You touched on it there but how closely do you think the organizers of the four major championships? So there's obviously the RNA, there's Augusta National, the USGA, US Golf Association, the PGA of America, each running these centerpiece events of the golfing year. How closely do you work together and actually where do you see the opportunities in future to maybe work more closely as a four? So we do work very closely together actually on our championships but more broadly too. So to give you a couple of examples, let's stick with Augusta National as one. Last year we announced that we were aligning some of the pathways into our respective championships. So one of the things again that we've always prided ourselves on at the open is having a really global field, identifying the world's best players, giving them roots in from various tours that exist around the world. And so we have a series of qualifying events, it makes up what's called the Open Qualifying Series whereby people can qualify and earn a route in you know through a meritocratic basis into the open championship. And Augusta came to us and said we really like what you're doing, we'd like to ensure that our field is global moving forward. Can we align some of the thinking on pathways into our events? And that was a partnership we embraced and we worked together to design a model that we believe will serve as a good stead moving forward. So there are lots of points of interaction and that extends actually beyond just the majors but to the elite tours too. We have a group that gets together pretty regularly, we call it a leadership group. It includes representatives from the majors but also the PGA tour and the DP World Tour and representatives from other bodies, elite events and other around the world. And so there's a lot of collaborative discussion. Do we agree on everything? Of course not, it would be unhealthy if we did. But I'd say there's good collaboration. And as we look ahead and you think about the majors, there are definitely opportunities for further collaborative behaviour. So from a media rights perspective, golf is pretty fragmented. You know I think there's a question around whether there are opportunities for rights holders to work together appropriately to both enhance the proposition for the golf fan and quite frankly drive economic value. There are other commercial opportunities that exist as well. There are certainly opportunities as it relates to data across the sport of golf. So I think there's lots of positive discussions underway but the starting point is strong and that there's good healthy to pay amongst the key stakeholders across our sport. You're somebody who has come into the sport fairly recently and actually as part of a bit of a new wave of leadership across golf in terms of some of those stakeholders that you mentioned. There's obviously a lot going on in golf at the moment. What is your overall health check on professional golf right now? Thinking about not just the majors but you mentioned the tours because it's quite a dynamic fluid situation. Yeah it is. I mean you're right there is a lot going on and there's a lot going on actually at all levels of the sport. We should talk about the areas of our sport that are not just the elite professional area too but if we focus on that to begin with. Yeah I think my perspective here and the RNA perspective is that you don't find too many sports globally that are healthy and consistently growing unless there's a strong shop window at the top of the game and I think it's fair to say as well that golf shop window has seen some disruption in recent years. As much as anything I think the conversation has often been about cash rather than competition or the quality of courses etc etc so this clearly been some disruption. At the same time if you look at the last 12 or 18 months the audience across a key professional golf properties has been really strong. Yeah the broadcast audiences are up for the PGA tour they're certainly up for the majors and the most significant other golf events around the world and I think from an RNA perspective our key thought is that golf is a global game and so it's really in our interest to see strong sustainable elite professional events taking place all around the world supported by the world's best players. That's a natural perspective I think for us to have given our geographical remit within the sport we also want to see really strong meritocratic pathways into those elite professional events and I think we also continue to believe that the majors of the pinnacle of the sport and so we in our role will continue to influence on the basis of all of those points. I think there is a lot going on at the moment the PGA tour yes it's been interesting for me I've been in the role in about 14 months but I can no longer rely on that new BTag because since I joined new CEO at the PGA tour got a meal coming in as CEO very shortly after me at Liv Golf transition at the LPGA and more latterly the latest European tour change at the PGA of America so there's lots of new faces around the table and there's a lot going on the PGA tour and looking at their own strategy and their scheduling work the DP World Tour are thinking about how their relationship with the PGA tour may evolve Liv there's obviously a number of questions at the moment around their long-term model and what that looks like I think from my perspective you know we've got really good relationships with all of those keys. stakeholders and as we've just said I think there are opportunities for enhanced collaboration moving forward. We work with all of those stakeholders to create roots into our own championship. We've had to be flexible in recent years to offer places to live golfers and to create pathways that serve this. A global game not just the PGA tour which is primarily focused on the US and so I guess you know we're trying to influence the sport positively to ensure that it remains a global game that showcases the world's best to all markets and we're also focused on controlling what we can control to make the open as good as it can possibly be into the future. Just specifically on live for a moment there's obviously a swirl of speculation recently and I think there are probably very few people who know that the real situation but you mentioned that probable need to look at new ways of funding live moving forward. I just wonder from an R&A point of view in terms of that overall remit that you mentioned how involved would you want to be in those conversations how what kind of visibility would you like to see thinking about the broader mission of the R&A and the you know the work you're doing around the world in terms of growing the game and ensuring it is sustainable and ensuring there is long-term planning. I think first and foremost it's not our job I guess to shape the live funding model into the future but we have a vested interest given what I've just said which is we'd like to see a strong global proposition for our sport you know we'll come on to this I'm sure but the game is booming all around the world in almost every market the sport is growing you can see when the world's best players travel to certain markets we've seen it with the Australian open recently we've seen it with the liver then in Australia and South Africa when big-name players turn up to markets which have quite frankly been underserved by a linked professional goal in those markets the crowds turn up there's interest you know there's engagement and that's a real positive and so we'd like to believe there is a model where there can be a strong global footprint for our sport moving forward and I don't think that's dependent on you know live being in existence or not far from it we want a sustainable model and we have a direct role to play there so one of the things that drives strong events is when players know that there are roots into the major championships and so you tend to see a spike in strength of field in markets or events around the world when we're offering places into the open championship through our open qualifying series or as I talked about earlier the masters are doing the same through our alignment and approach on that in that space so there are lots of things we can continue to do to influence that model directly and we have a vested interest in ensuring that the sport is sustainable at the elite professional level into the future just thinking about the concept of disruption and you've obviously come into golf having spent a lot of time and many years in in rugby union are the sport that I think it's fair to say is going through a lot of change and actually considering facing a bit of disruption and considering what and how it might change for its next era you're obviously deeply embedded in a particular team Northampton Saints for many years as you've come out of that role and managed to put your head above water do you look now at rugby union now you're not in the day to day with a slightly different perspective in terms of what you're seeing and how you might assess its way forward to some extent I mean I'm actually still on the border at Northampton Saints so I've maintained that connection which I love you know it's a brilliant sport and and and Saints are a brilliant club I've thought a lot actually about where there are similarities and differences between my old role and my current role and you know there are a lot similarities we just don't go back to the debate that we were just having about sustainability I mean one of my fears in golf is about the sustainability of the purses and the prize fund particularly for certain events and you may say well that's a fundamentally different question to rugby but I see a lot of similarities right one of the challenges that rugby has had is that over the last you know 10 to 15 years quite frankly particularly in a domestic game the clubs have paid the players more than they can afford now I'm a big believer in rewarding the athlete right the athlete is the star of our sport they have a disproportionate impact on the perception of our sport and the ability to to grow the game not not just in rugby and golf but but more broadly and so they should be really well rewarded for what they do but in some senses rugby's been writing you know checks that it's been been unable to catch the growth of player wages particularly pre-COVID you know far outstripped the commercial revenue growth rates and low and behold when there was a shock to the system through the pandemic you know three clubs failed and so I look at golf and think it's brilliant there's strong broadcaster investment into us for it's brilliant that there's strong sponsorship investment into us for it's great that live attendance is attending really positively for our game but we've got to be really thoughtful about ensuring that model is sustainable for the future rewarding the players appropriately but not stretching the model too far and and I do think that's a question for liavers they wrestle with you know the funding model moving forward so there's a similarity there for sure there's there's also some governance similarities I mean if you think about what happened in rugby pre-pandemic there was an investment from cvc they bought 27% of the commercial side of premier ship rugby but I think what happened over the next few years is that it was difficult to get a lot done quite frankly I think cvc underestimated the complication of the governance model in rugby and the strength of feeling at club level it was difficult to empower cvc to drive some commercial decisions where any commercial decision had an impact really on the sporting and regulatory side of the sport and the clubs had control of the sporting and regulatory side so you didn't get as much movement early in that relationship as you might have expected again you may look at that and say well that's really different to what's going on in golf but I don't think it is and I had a fascinating conversation with Brian Rolatt the new CEO of pga tour about this recently because the pga tour have taken on significant external investment through ssg and Brian is looking to make some strategic change to his proposition but the player group has a significant voice on his board you know one of the implications of the live breakaway I think was an empowerment of the players as they relate to their standing and role on the pga tour board and so you're going to have competing priorities right you've got a desire to evolve that product maybe create a stronger narrative through any given season but if you want as Brian I think does you want some points of promotion and relegation that can create some fear and uncertainty for the player group so how do you balance those priorities you know and I think the players views are maybe similar to the way the clubs were thinking about commercial evolution across premiership rugby so different contexts but some similarities and so I'm a believer that when you transition across sports there's value in a fresh perspective and fresh eyes but some of the rugby experiences I've had are certainly helping me form my views as I as I build my knowledge and learn in the in the golf industry I think across a number of sports there is always a discussion about the relationship between the elite professional end of the sport and the participation amateur part of the sport and it seems to me that in golf looking from the outside in that relationship feels a bit stronger than in in other sports and obviously the RNA and what you do you have a responsibility and as we've talked about it a remit that covers all aspects of the game how strong do you think the link is at the moment and how strong at its best should the relationship between top end and the average player down at the nine hole municipal as I said earlier like I'm a believer that that shop window you know the elite professional level in in the case of our sport is really important to the rest of the game but it's not the be all and the end all particularly for a sport like golf so let's think about where we are right now I mean golf is in rude health yeah in many ways better shape than the sport has ever been in we are our focus at the RNA tends to be on the world excluding the US and Mexico because of the way the governance of the game is is set up and in the markets with which we work there are now something like 112 million people actively participating in the sport of golf 65 million or so adults and 47 million juniors there's a further 50 million playing the game in the US so the game is in rude health and there were some really fascinating trends you know people engaging with our sport off course now outnumber those that are playing the more traditional nine and 18 hole formats so that means people engaging with propositions like top goal for driving ranges through simulator golf adventure golf crazy golf our view is the all golf is golf and so that trend is really positive but it's interesting that there are now more people engaging off course than the non-course at the same time on course golf is growing so I think if you take our you know the home markets GB and I the number of rounds played was at almost 15% last year really really strong trends the growth in the number of juniors playing and engaging with the sport is really strong and 80% of juniors that now engage with the sport around the world are doing so in those non-traditional formats so they're increasingly important to the sport as a whole. So many sports would give a hell of a lot for golf's fundamentals right now. And so we should be really proud of that as a game. And I don't think we actually do a good enough job about screaming that from the rooftops. The fundamentals are so strong. And I think that growth has been strong now for a number of years. Povid played a role in that. But the fact that it's sustained and accelerating proves that it's much more than just about the pandemic. And that growth has happened whilst there's been some disruption at the top of the game. And that to me in very basic terms says the growth at recreational level is about much more than just the elite professional game. So other factors are important. What are some of those? I think the wide-ranging benefits of golf are really clear. I get you outside, it's a moderate form of exercise, it's a really sociable sport to play. The messaging around golf and health is really strong. So people that play golf live five years longer than the average individual who does not. There's a direct link between the benefits of golf, addressing some of the ailments that flow from the 20 most prevalent diseases around the world. The social value of golf is high. And quite frankly golf is cool again. So when you've got Carlos Alcaraz winning a semi-final at Wimbledon and standing on centre court saying, "I'm really looking forward to my day off. I'm going to go and hit some golf balls tomorrow. Your sport is in a good place. We've got sports people who love the game. We've got influences, musicians, pop stars who are engaging with the game and doing so proactively. We have an ambassador program at the RNA and we've got people like Hathford Newton, Steph Curry, Nile Horan, Song Jun Kee, huge movie star in South Korea, attending our events and telling positive stories about golf. So I think the game is in great health and the professional game plays a role in that, but it's not the only driver for sure. Want to make sure we touch specifically on the women's game, which we've referenced at a few times already. You mentioned you've got the women's open championship coming up a little later in the summer. And you mentioned that that is an investment that you're making at the moment. Again, give us a bit of a health check of how you see the top end of the women's game and some of the challenges perhaps that the sport is trying to overcome as it continues to build that out. I think women's golf is a really interesting case study actually because relative to other women's sports, I think you could make an argument that women's golf was pretty quick out of the blocks. Certainly in terms of sustained extensive broadcast coverage, before many other female sports. So at the same time though, I think it would be fair to say that interest levels and audiences have not in recent years grown as fast as some of the other sports that we're seeing. So strong start, but maybe a slight plateauing. We're really proud of what we do with the women's open as you say we treat it as an investment into the sport. In particular, we've invested in the athlete experience. So providing in the same way that we've done at the open brilliant facilities, a brilliant experience for the world's best golfers year on year. We've invested heavily into the prize fund, growing that really significantly in recent years. And we've invested strongly into the spectator experience and we definitely see a slightly different audience for the women's open versus the open championship. Specifically, as it relates to families attending the event, we've been able to make those investments in no small part thanks to some brilliant support from our title partner AIG, where our values and approach the event are very aligned. And I guess as we look ahead, the key thing for us is audience growth. We need to create more of a step change to drive global audience growth for the women's open and in doing so elevate women's golf all around the world. We've got good plans to do that. We've got a very fan-focused broadcast and digital plan. We're re-evaluating the format and structure of the event. We've got to make some thoughtful choices about our venues. I don't think our venue choices are simply about re-creating what we do with the open championship. We've got to bring some unique thought to bear in terms of how we think about evolving our venue portfolio over time. The event experience proposition is obviously critical. And then there are some wonderful opportunities for collaboration with the LPGA and the ladies European tour, both of which have new leaders in place. And there's more we can be doing to enhance the proposition. Specifically on that latter point, I think the women's game needs to work harder to really showcase athlete talent and athlete personality. I think you could argue that the sport missed its sort of nelly quarter moment. You look at what came in Clark as time for WMBA. And you look at the run at nelly quarter had a couple of seasons ago and I think we missed a trip as a sport in using that as a platform to create a step change in engagement around women's golf. And so we're investing in trying to work out how we bring to life the personalities and talents of the athletes more strongly. Those palate personalities exist. I think about people like Charlie Hall, Lotty Wode, Lydia Coe. But having spent some time with some of those athletes, I think we need to break down some of the barriers that exist to allow us to really tell their stories in a way that doesn't create fear with the athlete base. But brings to life what they can offer to help us elevate the women's sport more broadly. Just want to circle back to the RNA more generally and actually some of your relationships and you've announced a few partnerships just over the last few weeks. Thinking about the various conversations you have with brands and especially as you bring new brand partners into the organization or into the the open or the women's open ecosystem if you like. What is a brand getting when they invest in a partnership with the RNA? What's a really interesting question because historically most of our partnerships have been born out of the open championship and the AIG women's open. And so through those relationships you're typically getting for a partner what you get when they invest in other major sports propositions. And that's fantastic and I think our open championship provides a unique platform to tell positive stories for those brands. And I think we're very proud of the fact that we build long-standing relationships. So if you look at our roster of partners, people like Rolex, people like Mastercard, HSBC, they are long-standing relationships that we have evolved over time and tailored what we're offering to suit the needs of those organizations. I think as we look ahead there's an opportunity for us to broaden the nature of those relationships. Particularly given the breadth of activity that we the RNA undertake at the top of the sport. And in part that's on us. I don't think if I'm honest we've done a good enough job of telling the RNA story. I don't think enough people know that we take every dollar that we make from the open championship and reinvest it back into the sport. I don't think people have clear enough line of sight to the brilliant initiatives that we conceptualize initiate, deliver or partner with national federations on to grow the game. And I don't think we should be shouting about our story for the sake of it. I think we should be shouting about our story because it will help us create further impact. The values of golf and the social value that we can create through golf is appealing for lots of brands and businesses. So we're evolving the nature of the conversations we're having with our commercial partners to talk about our breadth of impact as well as the unique window that we can create through our championships. And there's a couple of really good examples. So we recently announced a new partnership with Accenture. And we're going to deliver a brilliant platform for them at the open championship which creates significant media value that gives them a wonderful hospitality and event experience for their clients and partners and stakeholders. But we're also going to co-invest with them into some technologies that will help power the future of the game of golf. And that's where these relationships get really interesting and exciting. And I think you'll see more of that from us in the future. And in a similar vein mark, and perhaps this is something we talk about a little less, but it's so fundamental to the whole sports industry, you are working with a bunch of agencies and third party suppliers on all aspects of making the open happen and various aspects of how the RNA operates. What do you look for in an agency partner? What do they have to demonstrate to you to the RNA that they are of the right caliber and they have the right approach to work within the sport of golf? But also potentially across the very wide remit that you've talked about. Yes, a good question. I mean, it's probably worth highlighting a couple of the relationships that we have. So we've had long standing relationships with two circles, primarily focused on our event, a proposition, ticket, hospitality and other opportunities that flow from that. In that space, we're now working with Mike Burton Group, we've re-framed how we're thinking about destination and travel packages around our open championship as we look to further that model. We have a long standing relationship with IMG, specifically focused on our commercial partnerships and our media rights, propositions. And you know, those relationships are really important for us. What do we look for specifically? I mean, I've always really valued the sort of up and out perspective. So I think you need one to need confidence that your partners really understand your specific context, you know, your sport, your event proposition, your activities. But I really like it when they balance. that with a view that is more holistic because I think that forces your own organization. Let's be honest, we can all get a bit insular at times as much as we tell ourselves not to. I think it forces your organization to look up and out too. And so we really value that external perspective that we get from our partners. And I think it encourages our own teams to adopt that broad mindset. You know, I've been a big believer for a long time that there's no harm in begging and stealing and borrowing ideas and propositions from other operators within your sport or other sports. As long as when you deploy them in your own context, you do so in a way that is unique and relevant and appropriate to what you have. That's particularly important for us, given the fact that we've got a very traditional historic proposition in the open, but you also want it to be regarded as one of the world's very best sporting events known for innovation and progression and evolution. I think the other thing that we value in our agency relationships is this notion of skin in the game. So it's infrequent for us or unusual for us now to have a simple supply or agent relationship. In those big relationships that we have, you know, there are revenue sharing and profit sharing mechanisms. And I think that creates alignment and it creates ambition. And I think we feel like we and the agency were better when you've got a model like that in place. Good stuff. Couple more questions Mark. It's the leadership style question. We always ask in some shape or form, how would you describe your own approach? How would we find you in a high pressure high stakes meeting? I've always tried to follow some advice I was given actually relatively early in my career. And I had the privilege of working for a guy called Paul Dyton who was the GVS executive of the organizing committee for the London Olympic and Paralympic Games. In my eyes, by far and away, the best person I've ever worked for, I thought Paul was brilliant. And when he spoke about leadership, he always said, you know, there are three things to focus on. Number one, set a really clear direction for your team and your organisation. Number two, communicate, communicate, communicate. And number three, recognise the fact that as a leader, you have this unique gift of being able to pick the people around you and structure your teams to deliver on that direction that you set. And so I think those three things have formed the backbone, I guess, for me in terms of my own leadership style. And they've been really relevant actually in my early days here at the RNA. Our strategy needed a bit of a refresh. We've got such a broad remit that we needed to bring some precision to what we're trying to do and where we're uniquely placed to add value. The communication point is important again because of the breadth of our organisation, but in particular because of the breadth of our stakeholder group with which we work. And as you evolve your future direction and you set your priorities, we need to make sure that our organisation is structured to deliver. And I think we're really well structured in some places, but we're refining our model and set up a little bit in other places. So I think those three themes have helped me consistently through my career in a very relevant now. And then I think the other thing I would say is that I've always been a big believer in the power of relationships. And so I tend to invest a lot of time in the relationships internally and externally. And again, I think that will stand me in good stead in this role. And finally, you might have already answered this in part by mentioning Paul, where do you go for council for wisdom? When you've got a challenge or you just need a sounding board to chat, something through could be something specific, could be a general leadership challenge. Who is your sort of wisdom foreball or wisdom playing partner, I suppose? Yeah, good question. I mean, there's definitely a few people I've sort of tapped into over over time. Paul Paul would be one of them. And the amazing thing about working on the London 2012 Olympics was, you know, ends up being a large team come games time. And so many of those individuals have stayed working within the sports industry and have gone on to do, you know, impressive senior roles in lots of different contexts. And so you've got a ready-made network. There's a couple in particular, you know, Rachel Brace who leads the people are gender at the FA. As always, been a source of council for me. I think she's brilliant. Joana Manning Cooper, who's also now at the FA, but has held roles in the RFU and other sports. I've always found really helpful, particularly in that marketing and comes space. So a number of people that I've crossed paths with in my past, particularly actually out of the games. But then I think I'm also quite collaborative in style. So, you know, I think having a fully firing executive team is so critical if you're going to be an effective leader. And so we've definitely bought the executive team at the RNA here to get them more frequently than I think they were doing in the past. And we've got some real strength of capability in that group, whether it's in terms of championship delivery on the commercial side, in terms of global golf relationships and our governance role. So, I'm in learning mode still really less than 18 months in. And so I've lent pretty heavily on the existing team to try and shape things whilst also bringing to bear a fresh perspective to try and move the dialogue on. Good stuff, Mark. We really appreciate you taking time out of a busy schedule, especially pre-championship summer to talk to us and join us on the podcast. Thanks very much indeed. Thank you for having me.