Marina Abramović

Burnout at work is a tale as old as time. "Hail as old as time." But a new generation may have found the fix. We can learn so much from Gen Z and what they are teaching us about modeling the boundaries that would have prevented all of us from burning out in the first place. How to win the battle against burnout? That's this week on Explanity To Me. Find new episode Sundays wherever you get your podcasts. What are the biggest threats we face today? And the reason we call it everything everywhere all it wants is because the idiosyncratic nature of the threats. I'm Pete Barara. In this week, NYPD's Deputy Commissioner for Intelligence and Counterterrorism, Rebecca Weiner joins me to discuss the evolving nature of terrorism and targeted violence. The episode is out now. Work and follow Stay tuned with Prite wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosus Marina Brahmavic. I'm really happy to be on this couch. I had no idea of what to expect. Can you tell me what clothes you're wearing today and why you chose them? I look out of the window. British Federal, we really never sure. So I'm thinking to wear something that I'm sure I could be warm. But if it's too warm that I could also have layers. Most of the stuff that I wear is gifts. I don't buy clothes. It's last maybe eight years. People give me clothes. So I wear for such a Dora Taylor shirt. I wear Yoshia Mboto jacket. I wear Ogdjirka from Serbia Designers skirt. I wear Basi Buduti boots. That's it. And of course the elastic, precious stockings because of ideal pressure. And how about the beautiful blanket that you've covered yourself with? You know, this black collar also covered by childhood. I was most of the time with my grandmother. She always wear black. In our country you wear black with somebody die. But always somebody die. So it's always black. So you have woman in black, women in black, and then we have communist. And communist wears something like a dirty green, gray, really horrible colors. So I think black was the most practical. But I also like to wear red and I like to wear dark blue. I wear two, sometimes a summer just white. Yeah, I've seen you in those clothes and they look incredibly beautiful. And they enhance your incredible hair. And you've got these great red nails today. It looks very good with all the black. And you're the daughter of two Yugoslavian partisan war heroes who had many privileges because of their status. And you grew up in what you described as communist dram. And there was money for culture but not for clothes. And do you remember what clothes you longed for? Oh, my child was so miserable. I actually kept something we call probably communist, Radmurjrazi. And everybody think I was so privileged. But I actually care for military, for family. And everything was forbidden. And everybody was allowed to wear anything kind of girlish or beautiful clothes that other clothes was wearing. And it was so kind of practical. Worse thing happened to me when every birthday against Pijama, heavy flannel, with some kind of ducts on it. Because mostly horribly pink. And three sizes bigger because my mother took when they washed them or shriek. But they never did. And I always look horrible. And then we used to wear the skirts with lots of panty coats. And they were so very fashionable. I remember I did a hemorrh. So I took ten skirts on the top of each other. And I put the other one on the top. And it looked so horrible so you can see all these skirts. And I remember girlfriends just loving it to me. I always felt outcast. So I'm ugly, I want it incredibly, you know, the misfit. So clothes was not in there. I just practically stopped it. That wears winter, summer, spring. You know shoes was always orthopedic with this socialist ladder. But also my mother would have to wash for long. So she would put metal plates on the top and the bottom of the shoes. So when I walk you can hear me like a horse from far away. And then of course glasses, I had bad eyes. And the glasses was a tea glass. And I tried to break them in every possible way. I put them on the window, I put the window, I sit on them, whatever. And I always, always get the new one. And I always get the new one. In your memory you dedicate it to friends and enemies and it sounds as though your parents were both of these and both to you and to each other. Did your mother resent your attachment to your father? Yeah, absolutely. It was so good. But by theory, the more shitty childhoods you have, the better artists you get. Because you have so much material to work out. You know nobody did anything from happiness, so important. So I had a priority, a priority of my shit. So to end also material, to work with. But you know, I love my father but I really didn't know how unbelievable he was, you know, unfaithful to my mother. Only when I discovered her diary, I should she die and see how much she suffered. If I just read one page of this diary, but I should be completely different. Yeah. And it all just disfaceted, she never kissed me. And I asked her what day it was by 40s, why never kissed me? She was so surprised. She just said to me, I just want to, you know, not to spoil you. And she really did, she made me really, really worried. Yeah. But I suppose there must have been something within you that could handle that because that type of, that type of lovelessness doesn't always result in strength. And somehow you've, you've used it as, as part of your resilience. It's incredibly impressive. And you talked about how your mother beat you all the time and even for sleeping messily. And she dressed you young, beautiful girl and the ugliest of clothes. And she was such a powerful woman and were you conscious of her envy of you? I don't know. I never really think about that way. But probably there must be truth in this. But I remember that also she provided me with all material to paint. I always have covercies. I always have tickets to the theater, to the opera. I only list the classic music. And every video was Beatles or Allie Stoves. Till I was 30 years old. I was not able to get out of house. It was telling the evening. So all this restricious thinking backwards. I don't care anymore. I think that really I actually got the unbelievable work in discipline. And from that all thing, and kind of the feeling for order and organization. And in many way I could never doubt all this work. If I didn't actually get the qualities from her. But from the father and enormous kind of courage and adventure, he really had courage. And also my mother of courage, except she never talked about it. So all of these things were revived to be much later. But I really felt that I lived in prison. I also felt that this family was given to me for some kind of mystical reason that actually I'd never been alone there. I'd never felt home ever. Yeah, you said you would do it your father because he never beat you instead of horrible clothes. He gave you nylon stockings. But when he was exasperated, when you wouldn't learn to swim, he threw you into the water. you described your weight, your rage, giving you this, the wearable to swim after him. And I think you were very young then, but I wondered how did you deal with needing the person who was abandoning you? It was a credible feeling of being alone in the middle of the sea. And he did even look back at us. And I was drowdy. But he had teach me to swim, but I actually could swim. But in that time, I feel I was taking over. So I was just kind of drowning, screaming for him and he never turned back. There is a morbid realization. All I'm going to die, all I'm going to swim. And also a credible realization that, you know, I am alone and nobody gives a shit. And if I don't take care of control by destiny, by a shit, and by life nobody would do. And then he became a dormant anger. I was so angry. I was really, actually, maybe, maybe swim. And anger made me survive. And anger made me not die in that time in the middle of the sea. And then I just started swimming to the boat. And he still was not turning back. He was not turning to me. He only put his head out when he was close and pulled me out. Like a little dog, I will never talk about this ever. But something changed in me. I felt, yes, I have to be completely independent. I don't need anybody in my life ever. And that something stayed with me all this feeling. But whatever I do, you know, I always kind of, always kind of know that it's only me. Yeah. Who is only me who can make a change or do things. Nobody who ever beat around, ever. How old were you when that happened? I was there six years old. Six. But that felt so bad, so long. I was at hospital because of the bleeding. And for one year, they had the hemophilia. But actually, the discoverer, he was something called hemorrhabia. It was very long bleeding, kind of the symptom. I would just bleed all the time, for a long time. But I lost my baby too, some three or three months. I have to sit down in the bed because I don't suffocate. I put me to the hospital. It was really the most happy time of my life. One year I was around there. And you know, everybody was nice to me, bringing me food. It was just something special. But then I got back home, but again, nothing changed. And this bleeding problem is really to me just two years ago. Now I had opposite, the same, actually, the genetic problem. But now with the correlation, so I almost died. Two years ago, I had the two covers and the reason. And there is a survivor. But nobody ever survived from that. They told me that I'm actually a real fighter. And then I have to come to England for my show here. And the only way to come here is to take a boat. I could not fly for five months. So I stayed in England five months. And then finally I went back with the plane. I actually came with the queer Elizabeth number two. It was pure right, but it was the sanatorium or water. Never again. If I have not, if I have to fly, I will always choose to fly. And you talk a lot about shame. And you said the feeling of shame was like hell in your family. And what did you use as the antidote to shame, to keep your driver alive? If you were to be so left at a lot. Well, when I've been reading your book, you refer quite a lot to this feeling of shame. And also I find that that feeling is quite a prevalent feeling in fashion that there's a sense of shame and how that where kind of making guises so that that disguise. Shame. Shame. Shame. I was very shame. I was shame. I thought though, I was always feeling ashamed myself. I felt always overgrown. I was feeling the cabbage giraffe in the school, where it was also too big on the baby face. I just kind of had a strange feeling of a bad body. I was so incredibly shame of being walking that actually if anybody walked behind me, I stopped immediately and just until the first pass by. I could not imagine that I would talk publicly anywhere, anybody. And the shame stayed so strong. I would be taking clothes off or any of these stuff was untickable. But the moment when I find a performance as the by actually video, in the first time I started the front of the public, this feeling completely disappeared because I was there presenting content, my content, my ideas. It was not about my body, my body, my head, or ugly or beautiful or disproportionate, who cares. It was actually the message that I was giving it. Electricity of that incredible, the encounter with the public over my own body, I knew that I could never go back to studio ever. And then also, standing in the front of all years, talking, I mean now I can talk to thousands of people. Yeah. It was really absolutely impossible to take the time. And then remember later on when I met Charles Atlas and he actually showed me rebounding. The first thing that I had, it was somewhere in the bar in New York, I feel still that he from all can be, it was enormous feeling of shame that he was doing something incredibly forbidden, shameful. And that was like unbelievable stress that actually reradiate. And that I really started thinking about showing the most shameful things in my life to the public and sharing this of the public. And in that way completely liberate myself from the shame altogether. I used to know Lee Barry as well and he was so independent of what might be considered things to feel shame about. He reveled in them. And then he made the idea of self-consciousness seem ludicrous almost. It was so thrilling. It was really very strong feeling. I have with me and Charlie Atlas, we made this insane piece called Delusional. I worked with 400 rats life. And Lee Barry made the queen, Ratque costumes for me. Yeah. I was insane the whole thing. And it was so unbelievable impossible that actually because of solitary problems and rats in the building, the theater had only two performances and they would be close forever. Really? But that was all unbelievable great because it was something that was breaking every kind of barrier or the norms of society. Yeah. I felt really with the power and free. The very funny things about this rat stuff. We actually want to have stage, metal stage on the angle of 45 degree. And we want to have 400 rats with the metal shoes, but metal shoes. So they would say they would actually kind of be on the stage when they could not run. But then we put this coming using socket dars. And then we found one male jump guy who actually scientists and give the two rats to make the shoes just to try. And the two bats he came back and said, "It's impossible. It costs fortune because every rat has a different size of his leg." So there we have to work with rats a different way. That's such a good idea to have all these little tap dancing rats on stage. Oh God. Brilliant. My God. You're the only person apart from me who I've had talked about spartanism and I was obsessed with self-discipline as a child. Would you say that self-discipline is the same as self-denial? Yeah. They're absolutely glorious. Yeah. Well, to the, you know, with the mother, say to spartan bear, you come back with a shield or all the shield. Otherwise, they will come back. My God. Yeah. I mean, that was a kind of attitude with spartan culture. I mean, we don't have heroes anymore around us. hero. is something that you really make possible, impossible possible. It's very important for the spirit of everything, of the nation, of human beings, of our planet, heroic action. But to be so important, the training of the body and the spirit, and this is why I understood if I want to do what I'm doing, especially long duration performance art, I have to really train. So, like in the artist's present, I literally train myself like going to the space program. What a tired year, I only eat food during the night, sleep at the drink water, and never anything during the day, so that I reverse completely metabolism in order to be able to be motionless for such a long period of time. So, I would go to the times with the rotating for extensive period of time, drinking all the water, and doing metaphysical exercises. Like one of my favorite exercises is opening and closing the door. I mean, you actually open them extremely, extremely slow, slow as possible. Then you open, but you don't exit, and then you again close the door and you don't enter. Just action of that, three hours. When you do this 10 minutes, 15-year use, after 15 minutes you take your completely crazy, "Well, I'm doing this shit, it's done." But after you decide, I'm going to do no better what, and you dedicate yourself to that fear. Then something magically happened. The door is still the door anymore. The door is opening, it's the door is open, it's closed, the door becomes open when you bite. The door actually turns it to here and now, moment, with time, no disease. It's incredible transformative, simple action. Open it, close the door, anybody can do it. But that's incredibly interesting. Did you invent that exercise for yourself? Or do you perform that? I think it's a genius idea and I want to try it. So I'm very interested. When I was reading your book, I found I had so much identification about your rigor. That's what helps, you know, that seemed an essential thing to be independent of needing anybody. When I was a child too. But to me, it's very important to create the first idea, and then you write the instruction. And you never try before, because if you try before, you will never do it. It was too difficult. And it was trying at home, this is the way it says. It's important to take the concept and do it in the front of the public. Because the public energy is the exactly energy you need to actually do something, which is almost supernatural. And that energy is essential. And then you have to absolutely do a no-better what? If you say yourself, I have to do it and it only will stop if I'm conscious of something else. But do it to the end. And if you give up what you decide to do before, then you can't do life either. You give up too easily. And by this very tricky tough stuff, by it will always try to stop you. They always make this construction, you know, that's ridiculous. I don't need to do this, why I'm doing it. But that's so tricky. But the decision is so important, no better what Byin said. No better how shitty or difficult is go and do it. And the idea of the end, the realization of that succeeding, is something that is very difficult. It's incredibly rewarding. Because when you do something, how they proceed is definitely not enough. But how did 50, this extra energy that may change, but also connect you with the public, you show with the ability, you show, you know, the difficulties. And then they go with you, they give you this extra energy. And then really something happened, the kind of feeling of connection being in the presence. You seem stimulated by overcoming fear. In your memoir you decide, you describe the sense of danger that had united the onlookers in the room. And when I saw your installation at the South Planck in 2022, one scene was so frightening, it was almost like being under anesthetic. And what part does fear play in your work? You know, anything I do before I start, I have a raw, raw fear, anxiety. I have literally cramble, I'm a stomach. I'm mostly in the bathroom, even if I'm not in the bathroom, just sitting there. And if I don't have the fear, even public talk, same thing. If I don't have fear, I'm panic that I don't have fear. And that fear is something, it's a kind of, I don't know, it's a kind of indication that I am there, 100%. The moment I'm the front of audience, disappear immediately. It's gone. And then I'm just there with them. But there with them, I have to be with my mind and my body there. I can't just be there and my mind is, I don't know, a horror horror. I have to be there. And the fear, the fear, the fear is security, the fear everything. You really have to, you have to be present for them. And then you connect. And then this connection happens. You maybe sometimes you don't need to do anything. This is the thing, you just stand there with them in the space. You can have so much out of this. People always think that we have to do too much. For me it's all about having more and more of less or less. And do you think your near death experiences in your performances were like a proof of worthiness to live? Because to exist as an artist only as a crushing of the softer, needy herself. And I wondered how you feel about needs. You know, this close to dead experience just made me incredible where, you know, that how little time we have and how much I have time. I was there, I was there, I was there. And this is really kind of a lot. You know, the one filmmaker was telling me, can you make the documentary about my life with my 80 birds there? And I said, absolutely not. 80s too early. I can make with 90. And he said, this is really funny. He really said, nobody ever refused this proposal as 80s too early. And he said, 55, how you can think the 80s story and I think, okay. I just said somewhere recently, I have no time to die. I really don't have time to die. I'm so sorry. It is so much to be done still. And that's keeping going. You know, the idea, people say, take it easy or just retired. And they look at people by age. Everybody is so unhappy, complaining. And just, you know, not produce stuff. And I take as a artist, if you have gift, you have no right of any kind to stop. This gift will be locked to you, belong to everybody. So just walk till you drop that. And that's what I'm going to do. You said that happiness is not a creative state. The designer friend said to me, if we had perfect bodies, we'd never be designers. Would you say happiness is like a perfect body? But you don't have to be happy as a state of mind. You, you don't have to be creative. Happiness is a state of mind, you don't change. But when you really have something that is, I don't know, terrible, happy, disaster, happiness, whatever, belong to you. Well, you know, not the pressure. The pressure is disease. But all of that is such an incredible learning material, you know, to trust that all that, and create work that you can, you know, reflect and give to other people. Because we all have three basic fears in our life. Feel of pain, feel of suffering, and that mortality. So that three things are constantly there with us, you know. So the all art history, you know, everybody from the books, music, theatre, you know, the performers, everybody actually deal with that in different ways. And we try to do a stage that, this kind of stuff. And we, I go through this. And if I go through this, you know, I become you mirror. You know, if I can do this, you can do this. And you can get fear, actually free from the fear of pain, of suffering, and of dying. And that fear is so important to actually confront and take every day life like you in the last, because you never know. That can come out of nowhere. You know, can be asteroid, follow this planet. I don't know. But that feeling that you're always ready and that you enjoy is incredibly important. We lose so much time with moushits and unhappiness. And why like really to be? Eu fui na noite agora, porque eu fico melhor que nunca antes, porque eu estou com o que eu não tinha, eu fosse pela 20-30-40. Eu sofro, como, para uma idiota de fio, eu sou emocional e amei, meu Deus, eu dava isso, eu fico muito melhor agora, porque eu sei o que eu vou devagar, eu sei o que eu vou adorar, como eu me adorar, assim como se eu descansar, agora, eu vou adorar a visibilidade do cabelo, em uma cilha, e por isso, você cilha muito mais, você não precisa pagar esse lugar para mais há um alguns anos. good! Maria, você é um podcast, e você precisa começar a actuar assim. O que é o primeiro step? É um podcast. Você tem que fazer muitas questões. Eu sou Maria Sharapova e eu estou em uma podcast nova, que é muito legal. every week, eu estou sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, e o ups and downs que vem na paz para acessar a graça. Eu tenho um pouco de questions muito legal, tá? ok, tá? Não me acessará algo para mim. Não, não, não. Nós vamos nos dar a suas histórias e ter valições valianteis de acessar as escritas, as actas, entreprenörs e outras indivíduas que me inspiram muito a minha minha own ação. Muito legal é o seu príncipe de gente que demonstra a power e ser unipologético em suas questões. Eu espero que vocês te gostem de um outro dia no YouTube ou em sua favorita podcast. Eu sou Midge First, 2x indivíduo do campeão, campeão do MVP e para o USM's National Team. Antes que eu iria ir para o programa de acessar a graça com a cipologia de cipologia, que fica mais grande. Any athlete pursuing greatness, nos, tem uma certa mentira que você precisa ter. O que pessoas não sabem é o que é o que é a costa. Em meu podcast, confessa de uma elite de athletia. Eu estou com o melhor athletia do mundo e explore a cipologia, mindset e insembadência em os pássitos de gratinês. Então tente uma vez e aprende de confessions de uma elite de athletia no YouTube ou em sua podcast. Você descreve a sua família intensamente romantica e você disse que se não quiser passionate com a vida, você não pode ser passionate com a vida. Você brilha os extremos de sua explicação de pênia para sua vida sexo. Eu não, eu estou cair com o pedrairo, eu não sou pedrairo, eu amo vida, eu estou a minha vida estomestica, se eu me cair, o futuro galeiro, eu estou a ser realmente cair. Mas isso é totalmente diferente, para fazer uma espécie de pênia em um trato de óbios e realmente se a espécie de pênia se libera a sua vida. Isso é uma outra coisa. Porque eu realmente descobri que a pênia é a dor da cairra de círculos, quando você cair a dor, realmente a cairra se aprecia. Mas você precisa realmente ir para ela e ir pro todo o que. Eu já me entendi. A minha toda a coroa de cairra era uma forma de ser tão grande que os cairros era muito pênia e também, você conhece o pênia de clínica, mas tudo isso foi realmente um grande distinto de coroa de cairra, para a coroa de cairra. E isso é porque isso é tão importante para o seu pênia. Não porque a minha mãe ou a minha mãe, isso é tudo, você sabe, é muito grande a explicação, é muito grande a proposta. E se você se enfantou a sua pessoa e você não sabe como eles estão acertando, você não se matou a sua atração a eles? Você sabe, é tão interessante. Tinha muito tempo para se enfantar com alguém, porque não é visualmente. Eu já tinha uma pessoa que me era visualmente, eu já tinha uma pessoa que me estava se preocupando, eu descobri que eles são realmente ascolos, e depois, ela é sempre tão forte. Então agora, por isso eu tenho muito certeza de que eu realmente não é visual. Eu já tinha uma pessoa que me tinha e me tivesse tempo para se estarem a pessoa, a coroa de cairra, que realmente é muito bom para você, a pessoa que se estivesse. Eu realmente gostaria de ver e me tivesse uma pessoa que estava com a positiva energia e muito feliz. E esse é muito raro para o final. Então, com alguém de 8 anos que tem todas as qualitias, que se estivesse com a coroa, ir para o caramba, com a coroa de cairra e a coroa de cairra, é muito feliz. Isso é uma grande vida. E realmente tem uma sensação de você, você sabe quando você está. se você está com alguma relação e você está falando com a relação, se esquece, isso é muito raro. Se você está com a coroa, a coroa é muito simple. É só tão orgânico, tão fácil. E tudo isso não é certo, então teremos isso para discussar as complicações e o game. Mas a coroa é só sobre simple things. good cup of tea, breakfast, opening, you know, window, spiling, rain, or such, holding hands making love. Just eating good food, you know, good food that making love, really unbelievable, subtly simple things in life. É muito difícil, você sabe, que pessoas não estão de amor, isso é sempre mais legal. É verdade. To be really sexo é extremamente importante, sempre. É verdade. E você sabe quando tem um dia em dia e pessoas estão falando, "You know, eles estão de sexo com 50 estes de raro, eu não consigo acreditar como mais o que. Porque é algo que, você sabe, fear orgânico é uma coisa importante, você se sente vida, você se sente conectado com naturen, com bruxas, com os trínsios, que só sempre ficam lúbidos e é muito legal." Então, com pessoas que descobrem mais, isso vai ser mais fácil, como isso está. Porque em uma das suas performancees, você é capaz de ter orgânico em uma das suas setas, é isso, certo? Não, isso é uma performance que eu several vezes com os pieces. É isso. Eu estava realmente redo e reproduzendo a parte de a vitro de cocote, cedbete, em Google Drive. A parte de uma estube de 8 horas na parte da casa, e o público pode aqui, por que, na parte do top, eu acho que isso está muito difícil. Eu estava complicando, porque eu estava, tipo, eu vou fazer isso há 7 horas, acho que eu tenho mais 5 horas de gássaro, isso foi muito difícil, porque, no dia de hoje, eu vou performar, é completamente algo, de gira parte, eu estava exorçado. Mas a parte de uma vitro de cocote, que é a parte da sebe, também, o seu logo, isso foi interessante, porque ele estava reproduzendo algo, ele reproduzia o cedo, e é called cedo, mas, e o que o menino reproduz, também reproduzce algo. Eu queria fazer o bale com o fio, com energia. É uma ideia de brillante. Você tem muito grandes namios para algumas performance, tipo, um pânico erótico, eu acho que foi tão bom. Mas também tinha uma performance de outra, que não era espelhosa, em 70 anos, quando eu estava arrumando o cedo, eu era assado. Eu estava arrumando com o cedo, e isso foi muito grande, porque eu estava em um tempo, eu estava em um fio de profissão de 12 anos, eu estava em um fio de profissão de 12 anos, eu me asking para ir para a gássaro e a BB, e eu acertei o cedo e me cedo, e me cedo. Eu estava muito escaril, mas isso foi em 1975, e eu arrumava o cedo, e eu fiz isso por 6 horas. E uma vez que eu estava vendo, quando eu estava arrumando o cedo, eu estava tão fascinando, e foi o primeiro tempo que eu arrumava o cedo, e o primeiro tempo para o cedo, eu estava lá, isso foi algo para ser lógico para fazer, porque a partir de que a educação era sempre que o prostitucista era sempre assim, e a minha mãe vai se dar, se ela se dê, se ela tivesse esse事mo, então tudo isso é tudo que faz. É, é bem. Você falou sobre quando você tinha um ex-aparido de um amigo de um amigo de Spanish, e, até que ele era vainha e narcistica, ele disse sobre os clonhos, e você se trouxe a Yamamoto Suit, e você disse que esse suco era uma revelação, eu não sabia que você tinha feito o self-conscious, e, para mim, isso é exatamente o momento de uma facineta que você dê, para ti dar a self-consciousness, que você descreve sobre fazer um performance, como você fica pensando sobre você, e. Was. Was que aquela descobração de clonhos parte de você liberando seu self? Eu disse, eu não sei o que era todo o seu corpo, e eu lhe deixei todo o trato, mas isso foi, depois eu era um grande trabalho de chá, e eu era realmente. Você sabe, eu era tão correu em essas times, o que eu estava falando sobre o que era o polícia, como agora, ou, você sabe, clonhos, porque aí você the artist that you tried too hard. But then I just finished two and a half thousand kilometers, walking great wall. And I did so much art for it. I said, "Come on, don't care." And then he brought me to the shop and I started wearing this clothes. It was incredible. It was like, wow, this feels so good. And I took high heels shoes and got the jewelry. I went down the hair. And I felt like just the power. And I felt really, really first time alive, actually beautiful. That was a shock, my life. And then right now, I mean, in my age right now, I think 60 fashion covers already. Because every time anybody asks me to do anything, it's the cover. I mean, you know, the girls that went with 17 and 18. And now I'm doing that because the people ask why I'm doing it exactly because of my terrible childhood. I love to have the clothes and stay in the front of the camera and look how that actually could look. And I'll be drawing myself. And I don't want to deprive myself of that kind of enjoyment. When you come to this photo session, the racks are closed. And they like to actually, they always try to style me. But Harry Bell, I love the post talk to me. I just look different pieces of it, put together, always the looks myself. When your mother died, her diary was full of love and pride for you. That she'd always withheld that side from you. And she showed love to your brother. But she could only show her love for you to other people. And how did it feel to discover that existed so profoundly? You know, the kind of Mediterranean Slavic bulk culture, which is very similar. The brother is everything. The male, the family, I remember when I was more. My father did tell the friends that I was more. But when my brother was more, he was shooting with the pistol in the air and they grilled the pig in the courtyard and they had a huge celebration. There was always a bodhisattva, always a bodhisattva, the male, the family. And the mother also, you know, every time I would do herity, or he would do herity wrong. I would be punished for him because always was you. That was my idea first. I was six years older. But it was always that kind of thing that whatever it was never enough. There is always somebody better. There was always, you know, something that was done in a different way. And I never could satisfy my mother with anything I'd done, any kind of success, any kind of price. Just anything. It's really a funny story that I would give my mother my cutlery and she would re-edit them by taking all naked photographs of me. So something would three hundred, four hundred pages would go to, let's say, you know, twenty-eight pages of charity gas was not for her acceptable to show to her friends. But then when my mother died, I find out that every teenager, every dawn, every exhibition, every article in newspaper, she collected and put in a kind of communist perfect order. And I was so shocked about that actually, she kept this diary about my successes. But not in the thought to be, in the thought to be, there was not a thing, not in everything was wrong. Everything I thought was wrong. Never could be, could be price in any possible way. And something that I felt such a security because of that for long period of time. And finally, when my other father died, I felt free and released. It's terrible to say that about parents, but this is what they felt. And I always like to tell the truth. I also felt free when my parents died. They died in the same week, very unexpectedly from my mother, but even though I adored my father and I felt quite liberated when he actually died, because it was then just down to me and I didn't feel I had to check with anybody. It's very simple. I felt sense of freedom, really freedom because so many things have been doing. It was so unacceptable. Also, they've been criticizing communist party meetings about the education. And I was kind of tried to society, try to do my professional art. Just always was looking how I can make something new, different and meaningful. And there was an opposition of the art that was in that time acceptable in the communist country. So the feeling of my sheep not fitting was so strong, constantly. Till they really actually left and find out there's the performance familiars in the world that I can correct. And that feeling that I belong to somebody that was really overwhelming. But also my kind of connection to my students, the teacher was so important. And to see how they can develop, this success became my success. I was so proud. From not having any kids, I had hundreds of kids everywhere, which I take care of them. And they come with me very young. And my public is super young. I have now, I just went to see the Czechos. I appeared four kids different from different parts of the theater. And they came to me to tell me that I changed the life. I said, "Hold on, it's a 14. I mean, come on, how I can change the life is only 14." But the idea that really kind of correct with me was so important. And I take care of that artist. And they really give me the love. We have kind of fair exchange. I give them my experience, but they give me a sense of time they live. And then we are all having this incredible kind of good time. And I just thought actually, he would go out to see anybody from my generation. Everybody is 23 years young. Constantly. That's kind of, it's not the problem. It's just that I feel life with them. Yeah. And you experience two huge heart breaks and abandonments first with you lie and then with your ex-husband, Paolo, and you lift these men up, but the work is all yours. And you said you thought you brought the pain of the absence of your mother's love to all your relationship. Do you think that ever leaves? You know, when we split, a greater China, we are done with our relationship. We had everything. Right now we are making actually an opening by Shou and Ulay Shou for the first time, Ljubljada. On our birthday, we are born the same day 30 November. Now this year in Ljubljada, in Slovenia, and he's dead already. It's four years. You know, I think if he was alive, we would have had actually the show together. But he's the present window we could work. And that was really wonderful to come back. We are back in that. And the book is called Love, Hate and Forgiveness. It's all three takes in relationship that we were completely through. And finally we forgive each other. It's easy to say, you know, but when you really truly forgive with your heart, it's a believable release of the all-negative energy, positive energy, and with Paulo, he really broke my heart. It was really something much more serious. I could not eat, I could not sleep, I could just cry all the time. And finally, one day wake up and I stop crying. It's okay now, it's over. And that was that kind of feeling of absolutely unfair abundance. I could not deal with this. And I was saying, well, they were falling in love again. And then I came 70. And then I met my now-recent partner with 70. But he's 21 years younger. And that was like, I thought I was so worried about age. He doesn't worry about age. So I don't stop worrying too. And not about marrying or having family together. It's just kind of being together or every day-based, like it's the last day. And that works. But then I have to do something about all this story with the broken heart. This is my main opera in the seven Dead Somebody Accounts because she really died from broken heart. In my case, I always die, but the work saved me. But her work didn't save her. So I made this whole story of opera and woman die opera. We have to really admit that the main die opera doesn't look as good as a woman. So spectacular woman die tears in the crashy cars. Oh my god, you can work so well with it. So I die. And that, you know, the heart-brocker, the difi suffocation, the job, the tuberculosis, David, went through all of them, dying over and over again. Always be killed by Viram Dufo, his great killer, Ed Pers and real friend, all the top of all. I think if you had to go, Willem Dufo would be the way to leave the land. Kill him, over and over and over. Then in this theatre, I played the ghost of Maria because of course, I don't know, any voice, but they played her ghost. Wow. And after the stratospheric success of the artist is present at MoMA, you worked with Bob Wilson on the life and death of Marina Abramovich and he said, "I like your tragic stories in a certain way they're funny and we have to stage your life comically to reach the public's heart and I've been listening to you read your memoir on audio and you're sometimes very funny, maybe without always meaning to be and it's incredibly endearing." But you know, when you start working with him, he really was funny. He said, "I'm definitely not interested in you art because everybody know I just want to make tragic stories funny because tragic when it's funny hits you more than when it's just tragic, showing tragic, just become kitsch." Yeah. And he was so right in that. And then every time we rehearse a cry, cry because they're so sad terrible stories. And then he said to me, "Why are you crying? Public have to cry, not you." And then after he rehearsed, he played this piece in Europe, in America, "I completely free from this. Absolutely free." And then remember one cyclist, you know, MoMA, very famous coming to my dressing room in New York. She said to me, "Marina, what you done now on this stage is you saved yourself 25 years from very expensive the psychotherapy." And then he was like, "I don't have anymore regrets. I don't all these stories don't affect me anymore because I share them with everybody." Yeah. And the moment you share with everybody, everybody finds themselves in the stories, different names, different situations, but we all have the same stories. So my biography became biography with everybody else. And then it was so free, the movement, really, really free. Well, I got some of that from reading your book. I found I had certain things that I identified with you, your strictness with yourself. I mean, my childhood was nothing compared to yours, but I had echoes of how you dealt with it, with the rigorousness, the sort of suffering, you know, pushing and the spartanism. And you talk about the three marinas, the warrior, the spiritual one, and the bullshit one. But this is also the lovable one. And does it feel like you can love yourself as this marina? Because I feel like and love you as this marina as well as the others. But to love myself took me a long, long, long time. I'm not still great in it, but you know, get you better. But it's so difficult, it's so incredible. Always looking to perfection and always finally perfection. And then it really, to me, I thought it was so important, this whole idea that it's not just to become good artists, that you have to become good human beings. And good artists could be really good. So I take everybody around by friendship with the people who really great artists and really horrible human beings. I just kind of avoid them. I don't want to, I don't want to anybody, don't have right to put your spirit down. And that's so important. It's a rule actually. Then if you're really surrounded physically and mentally, positive energy, it's a great feeling to actually enjoy life in a different way. And this is also wisdom. I was not like this. I was, you know, it's so many times through my work. Don't see well and abuse and not pay the toll. And it's just I was so kind of shaved to fight for my rights. I would have exhibition in Italy and they sell the tire show and they never give me a penny. And I was actually, how you call the, don't shave, but really a team to even ask for my older rights. And this time is God now. Absolutely. All of this is God. But also this people from my life, from my life I got. So it's really this, what you, when you get to the old, and old and sick is horrible, but old and healthy with wisdom, that's what this is what I've tried to be. It's really as much as possible right now. And with all these difficulties, I just kind of take them and you know, stand up and go. I mean, my book is called Walk is Through the Walls. Every time it's a wall, I walk through and then it's a rather wall and it walks through. And this goes off, you know, you never, it's always a wall somewhere to cross. You have to make enormous effort. It's something that you're really doing. And then you, you can't do anything anymore. That is a moment let it go. You have to just let it go. Universe will take care. There is a moment that you know, you can't do anything more, but you always have to get to that point that you do everything as possible. Before you say, okay, now I have to let it go. But when you let it go, miracle happened. And that's really wisdom. It can only take if you really have full life. And I really have full life. I have to say that. You know, there is this wonderful statement that we maybe feed as a sea to you that I love from Gandhi. Because Gandhi says so simple. Gandhi say before they ignore me, then they laughed after me, then they fight me, and then I will. That's really at the moment exactly by life. Well, thank you so much Marina for being on Fashion Neurosus. It's been a pleasure. I love how you culture. I only have one complaint. If you do this for the right, culture to be higher, that I really can't stand up without effort. I will make sure that that's going to be perfect for you. And I look forward to 90 and being back here with you. Bye. [Music]