Maria Semple: “Go Gentle” | Oprah’s Book Club

I will tell you that it really felt like an act of madness as I was writing this book. I want to write all about philosophy. I want to make this huge mystery thriller. There was this whole section about internalized misogyny. I had this big crazy ending. And plus, it's a romance. As I was writing it, I never told anybody about it. People who do this. Yeah, exactly. But I kind of knew that I can make it all work. Everybody, hi, I'm so pleased to welcome you to the Oprah Podcast in New York City, home to some of the oldest, coziest and greatest bookstores in the country. Hope you check one out the next time you're here. This year, we're celebrating the 30th anniversary of my book club, the Oprah book club. Something I'm so proud of because books have been just a balm to me over the years, a comfort and a joy since I was a little girl. And there's nothing I enjoy more than reading a good book. Even better when I'm sitting by a fireplace or under a tree. Oh my goodness. So when I started the book club, I never could have dreamed that I'd get to my 120 second pick with so many of you readers, along for the ride, who also find joy in reading as much as I do. I'm honored to host one of the largest and longest running book clubs in the country. And that's entirely thanks to all of you. I appreciate you so much. The author of my 120 second pick, Go Gentle, is a writer who can create a page churner y'all, mixed with painful life challenges and hysterical laugh out loud comedy. Yes, her books have sold millions of copies. Welcome Maria Simple. Hello. Hello. Thank you. Maria Simple is the New York Times mega best selling author of Today will be different. This one is mine and where to go, Bernadette, which became a movie in 2019 starring Kate Blanchett. Before becoming a novelist, Maria wrote for iconic television comedies like Saturday Night Live, a rested development, and mad about you. Her fourth novel, Go Gentle, follows the main character Adora, a divorce single mother, living in the Big Apple whose cheerful determination to live a life of the mind is turned upside down by her heart. It's been 10 years since your last novel. Yes, we've been waiting. Your devoted readers have been patiently waiting. Tell us about writing this. So Go Gentle, I'd actually made many attempts at this book while I lived in Seattle. And I had gotten really into stoicism about 10 years ago. And I knew that I wanted my protagonist to be a stoic. And so I started writing from the point of view of the stoic, but I was writing her kind of emotionally shut down. Stoicism as a philosophy because I wasn't even familiar with the stoicism until I read this book, and then I went and got other books about stoicism. Oh, that's right. So so so I'll tell you a little bit about stoicism and tell the people about stoicism because it's maybe not as well known as I think because it's such a big part of my life. But stoicism is a philosophy and the stoics were ancient Greeks, and I think of them as kind of the OGs of the self-help movement. From 300 BC, they thought that you could apply reason to achieve happiness. And the way you did it was by differentiating between what was within your control and what's outside of your control, and you put all of your energy only to what's within your control. And they call that virtue, and I think of it as kind of personal character. At the rest of it, you just cheerfully throw over the fate. And it sounds simple, but it's certainly easier said than done. And it takes practice, but it is, you then get on a path to achieve happiness. Okay, so you, Maria Simple, became a stoic. Yes. Meaning taking on this philosophy of living. Yes. And you wanted to create a character who's also a stoic. Exactly. So I really was so excited about stoicism that I wanted to, I thought I really wanted to get inside that character. And so at first when I wrote it, I was writing the characters, kind of like I was saying, emotionally shut down a little grim. Right. And perhaps that reflected where I was at the time of my life. But I kept kind of trying to write from this point of view because of the time of your life, you were going through the course. Exactly. Yes, I was, yeah, just like, and in a long-term relationship. And this was just the voice that I was writing in. But I kept writing maybe, but when I get to 50 pages, the kind of souffle would collapse, so to speak, because the voice just wasn't fun to write, it wasn't fun to read. And so I abandoned the book. I just put it away. And then my relationship ended and I moved to New York City. And I started life fresh in the city. I was totally dazzled by New York and kind of was surprised at how much I love my new life here. I kept thinking, God, there's so many cool things about that book that I really want to get back to when I wish I could figure it out. And when it was time to start writing, it occurred to me, why does a stoic have to be so grim and unfeeling? What if I make my character like a stoic sage and make her just really happy? And so I changed her name, I changed her city, I changed her attitude. And then the book just kind of broke open for me that this was this woman who had kind of figured out cracked the code to happiness. But what I think is so amazing about it, really profound, is that you're telling this fictional story, because in the beginning when she is like teaching stoicism to the boys, and tutoring the boys, I'm like, is this a real thing? So then I go and look up the books that she's teaching from, and I realize it is a real thing. Yeah, it's totally a real thing. That you're able to incorporate this philosophy into a novel about a fictional character. Yes, and it was actually really hard to do that again, for a long time, I think in the early stages of the book that weren't working out, I really felt like I had to explain what it was, and it just was kind of dreary, and that's not why you read a novel to have someone explain philosophy. The fact that she is living it, teaching it, being it, makes it so accessible. That's right. Let's talk about the main character, Adora, who is tutoring these two boys. That's right. Adora is a single, divorced woman, the mother of a teenage daughter who lives in New York City. Okay, so far. Yes, so far. Exactly, so far. Me, and she is a philosopher, and her job is to teach ethics to these twin boys of an old money New York family. She's figured out that the way to be happy is to rid herself of all desire, that desire is the source of suffering, which is a stoic thing, it's a Buddhist thing, it's something that you hear about a lot. And so when we first meet Adora, she's really living the philosophy quite swimmingly, you know. Of this quote, she's "he who wants nothing is a richest man in the world," I said, paraphrasing Seneca, "the less you want the happier you'll be." Exactly, she's living out that philosophy. She really is, and so she's very contented with her life, and it's all going quite well until she meets a handsome stranger at the ballet. Ballet. Ballet. And then she maybe realizes that the desire has not entirely been snuffed out inside of her. And so I found this to have moments of being like a thriller and like a mystery, and all of it combined, you are such a profoundly good, strong, brilliant writer. But well, thank you. You know, that's a huge compliment, and I will tell you that it really felt like an act of madness as I was writing this book, because I was like, I want to write all about philosophy. I knew there was this whole section about, you know, internalized misogyny and television writing that I wanted to get to, and I had this big crazy ending, and plus it's a romance. And I just thought, oh my god, how am I going to make this work? And so as I was writing it, I never told anybody about it, because I was just worried if I started to explain it, people would kind of start people to do this. Yeah, exactly. And I would just like lose all enthusiasm. But I kind of knew that I could make it all work. And you did. Thank you. You did. And I read that you were inspired to write about what you called the terrible secret of your life. This was something that was really challenging to write, but it was really fun, is that in the middle of the book, we kind of flash back to Adora's past. Yes. And she was a comedy writer, as I was once a comedy writer, and something happens to her, which is a workplace kind of sexual assault. Yes. And that was, it's kind of a pastiche of two different things that happened to me when I was a TV writer, which I really exaggerated for effect. But they were sexual assault, even though I didn't even really recognize it as such at the time. And it actually happened to you. Yes, that happened to me. But you exaggerated it in the book. Yes. Yes. And kind of combine them. Yes. And in my case, one of them made me kind of quit my job. And the other one, got me fired from my job. And I didn't tell anybody about it. I didn't tell friends. It was just too shameful. You know, I kind of like fully shut it out. I just thought, I don't think I, because at the time and in a different time and age, we didn't even think about. There weren't words for it. Right, and you know what to call it? And it happened and you just keep going. And you keep going and that's what it was. And then when me too happened, it just really blew everything open. That's right. Suddenly there's words for it. That's right. And there's a whole different framework to look at it. And also, you were like, that happened to you too. I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the one that was carrying that. That's right. And to me, what I went through at the time was that I felt really kind of guilty for being part of the system, which was just to kind of be on these shows. And I feel like comedy at the time really, there was so much misogyny in it. And I didn't-- I can't say that it made me feel really bad about myself. And I thought there was anything wrong with it. Like I thought that was comedy. I thought that's what you had to do to be a comedy writer. I was often the only woman on the writing staff or one of two. And so I just kind of went along with it. And so I felt really guilty for being part of that. But also I felt really angry about what had happened to me. And so this combination of like Gilton Ray-- All of that, yes. Oh, I thought like, wow, there's something right about it. It finds its way in Go Gentle. So the story features a lot of what I would call richly defined supporting characters with complex backstories. So how do these characters come to you? Do you just invent them? Do they visit? You have heard different authors say different things. So I usually start with my protagonist. You know, that's always where I start. And I think about the journey that I want to put her on in the character arc that I want to put her on. And from there, I kind of build the world around her. And-- But you don't know the full arc. No, I kind of know emotionally where I want her to land. And I think you have to in order to work backwards. But in terms of the plot machinations to get there, I don't know that yet. And so in terms of where I want her to land, I then start kind of filling her world with characters who, to me, have to earn their keep. You know, they have to come into conflict with her. They have to make her life miserable. They have to kind of go the distance of the novel. I have to just really make sure it's not just a funny person who appears on page 10 and disappears. Like, how am I really going to work them into the fabric of the entire novel? And I normally don't start writing a character until I come up with like an emotional truth or a comic premise. And usually, the emotional truth is based on something about me, like my emotional truth. And it's often nothing I'm particularly proud of, kind of even better, you know? So what was it for a Dora? What was the emotional truth for a Dora? Well, the-- It was in Go Gentile. OK, in Go Gentile, a Dora's emotional truth is that it's a woman who has always struggled with desire. That when she's young, she's just burning with desire. But she has like bad values. And she's chasing these bad values that get her into so much trouble. And so then she kind of maybe overcorrects and turns off all the desire-- With the stoicism. With the stoicism. And so to me, it's like this intellectual and wonderful woman who really has it figured out. But the kind of deal with the devil is that she has decided she doesn't want anything in her life. No more desire. And to me, that seemed like kind of funny. But then you bring desire into her life. And then what does she do with that? And that seemed like a comic premise to me. Time for a quick break. When we come back, Oprah Book Club readers share their favorite moments from Go Gentile. Study and play, come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal, everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 premium and a year of Xbox Game Pass Ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more at windows.com/studentoffer. While supplies last, and is June 30, turns at aka.ms/collegepc. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm talking today with best-selling author Maria Simple about her latest book, Go Gentile. It's a laugh out loud journey that every generation will connect to. Well, I know women are going to love this idea of the Coven. Oh, yes. It's a living arrangement of all single women in their 50s that are doors trying to create in her apartment building. And on page 31, she says, we want women like us, women who present as scary, but have good hearts, women who know how to get shit done, women who despite our age share a dirty little secret, we're just getting started. I just love that. Explain the idea of the Coven. Well, that really was kind of a narrative solution where I needed, in the beginning, for a door to be really happy being single, like genuinely happy. And I felt like if I just had her sit there and say, I'm so happy being single, I love being single, maybe we wouldn't believe her. She would be maybe protesting too much. So I thought, how do I put that into action with her full imagination and energy and ingenuity? And so she creates this thing on the floor of her building where all of her friends kind of move in. I love this. And the idea, so they pull their resources, they kind of share subscriptions to the ballet and Netflix accounts. Oh, and the celery. Exactly. When shopping. When they go shopping, because when you're single, you don't need the entire loaf of bread. You only need half. And I only need three pieces this weekend. You can have a half a stalk of celery. Exactly, yes. And so she's very happy with everything about the Coven. It really captures her imagination. And so I felt like this was a really good way to dramatize how a single woman would be happy. And I will say, I didn't invent it. My women, friends, and I are constantly talking about it. And you're always reading these articles. I feel like the New York Times, they just come fast and furious. These articles about women making compounds. You know, where they want to go together for themselves. Yeah. Well, we gave some members of our book club an advanced copy of Go Gentile. And they now have questions for you. So who's joining us from Texas, Jay? Hey, how are you? Hi, I'm doing great. Thank you so much. Thank you. You read the book? I devoured that book. I must have torn through it in a day and a half, Matt. OK, that's good. Good timing, yes. So good. So first of all, I do need to say-- my name is Jay Collier. I am from Houston, Texas. And I have been an Oprah's book club fan since '99. Oh, thank you. OG. Thank you for helping us weed through all of the-- all of the best sellers to find the books that actually stay with you and change the way you see the world. This was one for me. First of all, it was aboriously funny, so witty, the dialogue, the pace. That's why I said I devoured the book. In fact, is the first time I ever thought there was a world where philosophy was maybe sexy? I don't know. Yeah, all right. Or fodder for, like, good first date and banter. Much like what Oprah said earlier, I started wanting to read the works. So thank you for giving me more perspective on the world in that way. But I do have a question for you. So much like what was just discussed, I love the idea of the Coven. I love the idea that these women would have a community that was beautiful and they could take into their golden years. And they wouldn't really need to worry about being tied to someone in order to do that. But it felt like pretty quickly Adora was enamored with and enchanted by the idea of being in a romantic relationship and seeing when she meets this charming male character, who they could be to one another. And I guess my question for you or Adora through you would be, were you trying to tell us that the idea of moving into your golden years with the community of women and friends is really just a plan B in kind of settling. Good question. We all just want to love and be loved romantically, no matter what age. That's a very good question. Good question, good question, Jay. I don't think it's a plan B. I think it's a plan A. And this thing happens to Adora and she finds love. But I think that what, first of all, the Coven is still going strong on the seventh floor. So the Coven still exists in the world of the book. It's happening. And I think it's always there for her. And I will say, who knows if this thing with Digby will work out or not. But I think that in the course of the book, Adora, I think has learned to love herself in a way where she doesn't really need a man, you know? And I think that that's really where I was hoping that she to leave her. Land it, yeah, yeah. Exactly, that that's not like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems. Like I actually think the Coven is the solution to her problems. And I don't mean to sell. out the cup and I know it's kind of a problem with the book, but I personally love the cup and I will say on the floor of my building two apartments are coming up for sale and there's a long list of my friends who now will hear about it for the first time and we'll say wait, I need to be in those apartments. So the cup and will probably become a reality. James, thanks so much. I mean, you're right. There's so much laughter, right? There's so much humor in the book. It's so funny. It's so funny. That's because we were the comedy writer here. A comedy writer who became a fiction writer. Was that a hard transition? It wasn't that hard because while I was writing for TV, even though I had a 20-year career worked on a lot of shows and was always kind of getting hired, I never felt like I was that great at the job. I was good at story, but I was never really good at jokes and there always felt like there was something wrong with me as a comedy writer. I felt like I was kind of wearing my shoes on the wrong feet or something. I certainly never watched TV. I wouldn't go home and watch TV. I never watched it. Instead, I would go home and read books. I was in English major in college. I still self-identify as an English major and that's really what I loved was books. And so it, even though TV taught me some really amazing things and I loved my time there in many ways and they really teach you story in TV, that's your job is to just be breaking story and working on scenes. And I think I really kind of developed a story muscle while I was working in TV. It wasn't until I met a novelist whose books I really liked and I talked to him all about how cool it was that he was writing books and what was it like that was so special. And he said to me, why don't you write a novel if you like them so much? And I just thought that novels were for other people to write. They were for kind of more serious or dignified people to write. That there was like no access for me to become a fiction writer. You, you, you like I have writers on this pedestal. A totally on the pedestal. On the pedestal. Yes, and I've never, I've never written a word of, of pros in my life and, and he said to me, novels are just your personality and your interests and you have a good personality and you have a lot of interests and I would read your novel. And that's really all it took for me was kind of getting permission from a relative stranger to even try being a novelist and so I just set out, I bought a book on a stranger who had done it. Who had done it? Yes. Who had done it and who just gave me that encouragement. And so I bought a book on fiction writing and kind of learned how to do that. And I just really was concerned that I would be a bad writer, you know, and that I didn't know that I could be a good writer. And so I just kind of did sense by sense. And in my first novel, this one is mine. There are no similes or metaphors because I didn't trust myself not to just write bad similes and metaphors. And so, but now go gentle as my fourth book and I'm a little more confident about similes and metaphors. Well, and also because you had such success with the Bernadette book, yes, yes, yeah, yeah. So in success builds your own sense of confidence and your ability to do it. Once other readers respond, yes, yeah, that that's, you know, you're on the right track. That's right. That you've got something and it was really like my voice, I think, that I learned to kind of trust my voice. And I think that's really what my career has been is just kind of leaning in deeper and deeper to my voice and just trusting that if I like it, they'll like it and not trying to make it any more complicated than that. Let's take a short break when we return one of our readers ask Maria if stoicism can provide the wisdom to help her manage her love life and career. That's next. Hi, listeners. Welcome back to my delightful conversation with the selling author, Maria Simple. You all know her hugely popular books, her new novel, Go Gentle is my latest book club selection and we're talking to our readers who share what they learned from reading it. Well, Annie who lives in New York is joining us. You have a question about stoicism. Do hi, Annie. Hi. Hi. Hi, over. Hi, Maria. Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. Maria, I absolutely love the book. Similarly, I devoured the book in about a day and a half. I just couldn't read it fast enough. I actually recently turned 30, so I'm a few years behind Adora. But like her, I'm single and navigating living in New York City. And as a single woman, I've realized that it's really important to have a philosophy or a mantra to keep you grounded. For me, mine is really simple. It's that everything happens for a reason and nothing happens by mistake. And this helps me navigate the highs and the lows of living in a city that can sometimes chew you up and spit you out, which is a big reason why we love New York. But it can be tough. So I actually have two questions for you. My first question is that you wrote Adora, as you mentioned previously, to have stoicism as her anchor. Was that intended to show how having a guiding philosophy can help a woman survive and thrive in a challenging and fast-paced environment like New York? And also, do you see stoicism as a universal tool that anyone can use to stay centered while they figure out their life, their love, or their career? Mm-hmm. Good question. Well, New York, as you know, it's a hard place to live. We're all going through it. So any help we can get, I think that we will all take. And so, yes, stoicism can help that. And I do believe, just because I have the personal experience, that I think that stoicism can help with just going through your day on a small level, with career stuff, with relationship stuff, it just kind of reframes, it helps you reframe and find very helpful perspectives on situations that make you not kind of go crazy with obsessive thoughts and regret and disappointment. It is a structure that kind of inoculates you against all of that. And so, I think that's good for any age, because life is going to come out of you. How do you use it? Give us an example. Well, I have a stoic practice where I, every morning, I sit down in a chair, my philosophy chair, and I write out the four stoic virtues, which are wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice. And I write them out. And then I pick virtues to work on that day. Like for instance, if it's a writing day, focus is a subset of temperance. And so, I really think that my job here is to focus. It's not to write a bestseller. It's not to make a lot of money with the book. Like, I just have one job here. It's to focus. That's 100% of my control. You know, I'm not wanting, basically, I try to desire only what's 100% of my control. And that I feel like if that's your goal for the day, is not to want anything bigger, not to want outcomes, not to want to change people, not to go through the world with expectations of other people. Yes. And of things to turn out the way you exactly want them to turn out. And so, if that's the case, then you actually can go to bed feeling good about that day. Like you've done what you needed to do that day. And you're not just disappointed or frustrated. And so, I do think that it's really helpful. And it helps me just reframe just things that happen or things I'm going through. Absolutely. That's great advice. Thank you. I think it's so interesting every single person so far that we've talked to is was as attracted to the stoicism philosophy as I was. I think the stoicism, you did exactly what you wanted to do. You nailed that thing. And got us all thinking about it in a different kind of way. Didn't it do that for you too? It really did. And I like you were saying before I hadn't had my eyes open to stoicism previously. And I also wanted to go and investigate more, read some of the books that you had mentioned and really understand not only stoicism, but other types of philosophy and seeing if there's something there that really resonated with me. Yeah. It did the exact same thing for me. Thank you so much, Annie. Thanks. Thanks, Annie. Thanks for reading it. Yes. Thanks for reading it and loving it. Wow. I loved it. I can just share it with my friend. So a door lives by the Latin phrase. Is it a more faulty? Yes. A more faulty. And translated that means love, fate, love, fate, meaning love, love, whatever shows up. Love it. Find a way to love it, make peace with it. Yeah, don't just accept it, but love it. And the idea is that even negative events, things that you know, you might perceive as being negative, you can use to make yourself a better person, you can then use that to work on your patients, to work on your courage, to work on any of the virtues that everything is fodder for being a better, more resilient person. He says, once you truly accept all the shit that happened to you, you can get to work on everything that still is available, but even acceptance isn't enough. That's right. You have to love it. You have to love it. Yes. And there's always so much that's available. Have you been able to achieve this yourself? Well, I'll tell you what, there's one thing to accept it, all the stuff. Right. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I can do. And it helps because, to me, it really engages my imagination. Yeah. Is if something doesn't go well, and it, or, you know, the way I want it to, and the way, you know, that I'm hoping it will. I can very quickly. Get into the mindset of it's not the worst thing in the world like there's a lot of other things I can do right like and then there's a cynical quote in the book that is kind of a clunky quote But it says nothing can happen to you that bars you from something that's not even bigger That's basically whatever you feel like You've been prevented from There's always so much more that you're not prevented from yeah, and so I kind of switch into this Imaginative mindset where I just kind of picture you know the good things that it can still happen and and and I think that Every good thing in our life. I I don't think it takes that much work to connect it pretty directly to a previous disappointment You know right right right right and so that's what I think is really useful is it and once you really internalize that you learn to kind of Roll with the things that don't go your way Because you just realize you know, it's all gonna work out. It's all for a reason something better It's gonna come around. Okay, Adora struggles with her weight. Oh, yes, and there's a very funny and relatable passage here on page 103 Sweat trickle down the back of my jumbo calves Why had I eaten those cookies if I started work on Monday that only gave me three days to lose weight and if I took two step classes This is so me if I took two step classes a day and ate nothing but cabbage soup. Oh, remember that cabbage soup Yes, I ate nothing but cabbage soup. I could lose six pounds not great if the show started a week later I could lose 20 right these are thoughts. It's so many women have had over the years So I mean have you had those thoughts yourself or do women come up to you and say how do you articulate to so well Exactly what we're thinking. I've certainly had those thoughts myself. I'm sorry to say I mean the hundreds of hours that I've wasted You know fantasizing about how my life would change if I was 20 pounds lighter all the doors that would magically open to me and I loved and Successful I would be and and I'm writing that from Adora's point of view in the flashback when she's younger That's right and and that's really was definitely my mindset just yo-yo dieting just self-hatred hating my body Thinking that if I was thin my life would magically change and I really wanted to write a character from From someone who had no really no strong sense of self and to turn over your sense of well-being and hope and anything good To other people loving you because you're thin is just a prescription for kind of insanity and Unhappiness and so I really wanted to you know write Adora as a young person in that way so we could contrast her With the Adora we meet in the beginning of the book. Yes, and then we see how she got there and and also how kind of hard one her Serenity is so that when it starts to get challenged by digby, you know, we were like don't Don't go crazy again Adora, you know, you got it all figured out. Don't throw it all away Well, one of our book club readers Rebecca is joining us from California. Hi, Rebecca. Hi I did want to say first off Adora is like I feel like she's the woman that you would meet at like a friend's inner party and that you would want to sit next to her. Yes Just a powerful friend and be part of her coven like ideally. Yeah. I Feel like she's very relatable in a lot of ways So Adora in LA specifically felt like I associated with her because when I moved to LA 18 years ago I knew nobody I felt totally adrift and I leaned heavily into like all of the Buddhism the meditation the radical acceptance and I think looking back and now I feel like a very different version of that person and as a reader, I think we also get Different versions of Adora throughout the book I wondered which version of Adora was like the first version for you. Did you start with like current day in New York and then you created like the back story in the scaffolding or Was it baby Adora and then you move forward. It certainly was Present day Adora is where I started and it's a very good question because you know, I know every people start very different ways But it was definitely the present day Adora and the more I kind of built her out I I started just wondering like why does she need stoicism so badly? What happened to her that she needed to just kind of Put this entirely ancient operating system into herself to replace what she had had before and I just started thinking about what that was And I very interested in character. I mean I mean personal character and that's what stoicism really is about is like strong personal character And and when I think about that I just I just feel a lot of shame about my past and I feel like I didn't have good character for many years I didn't even again know The the concept of good personal character and so I I was raised Catholic, but I was never taught character I was taught to be kind of afraid of nuns and to to lie in confession So you didn't have too many Yale marries But I never really had like an ethical training system and so I really then kind of reverse engineered the young Adora According to that you know, and it just made it very interesting to me Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks for loving the book. Yes. Thank you. We're back. Thanks for writing it also There's a there's a conversation between Adora and her Gen Z daughter viv About their generational divide and the tension between you know mothers and daughters you all know all about this What was this based on a moment in your own relationship? Well, um, so I have a daughter who's older than Viv now, but she was once a teenager and Viv is definitely an exaggerated version of my daughter And it's funny because when I gave the book to my daughter to read I said to her You know just make it past the first 20 pages because Adora is really harsh on Viv She really thinks she has terrible character and is very open about it And if you read the book you're gonna think I just really don't like you don't like anything about you But don't worry. There's method to my madness Viv is gonna come to life and kind of steal the book at the end and and she does and everybody ends up loving Viv and so If you're asking me if my daughter has said that I'm An old joyless person who's just trying to take away her Happy youth Yes, words to that effect. I spoke in my household All right Laura is joining us from Arizona. Laura. Hi I get to talk to Maria. Yes. Thank you for reading. Hi, Laura I thoroughly enjoyed the book and it was exactly this relationship between Adora and Viv that spoke to me the most I am a divorced mom of a certain age and I have a teenage daughter So there were moments where I laughed out loud because their text message chats could be ours. Yeah, so those moments really spoke to me And I think that's probably why I was so gutted and maybe even a little defensive in the scene in the cafe to floor in Paris Where Viv finally lets all of those tense emotions out and says to her mother, you know How wounded she is that her mother is dismissive about her feelings and her experiences and her generations challenges So my question for you is one was that intentional choice It seems like Adora may have a bit of a blind spot even in her own stoicism practice Where her daughter is concerned. So is that intentional drafting choice in your part? Yes, very much so that's very astute. Thank you for that question Is that one of the hardest things for me in writing the book is I really did want Adora to be as harsh as possible To Viv in the beginning without you disliking her, you know What I was kind of trying to push it because I knew where I would go You know, this kind of goes to the title a little bit is go gentle is that With stoicism you go hard on yourself and easy on other people and and I feel like there's this hole in it which is Adora's relationship with Viv that she just can't Was she can't apply that to her own daughter and I think the reason why I did that is because um stoicism is very male It's like very bro culture now, you know and even though I like it and I'm Into it. I feel like it doesn't really leave room for the experience of being a mother And in fact one of my favorite lines in the book is a line. That's not even mine Of came to me from my editor Lindsey's magnet and it's when Adora Has had a really hard day has gone through all the stoic possibilities to make her better And and it doesn't work and she gets into bed with Viv who's asleep and she hugs her daughter And she says the stoics Made some good points, but none of them were mothers and and it's just like the love of the child is what she needs and and and the thought that like You you would be okay losing your child I mean because that's what the stoic say is you should just like not be attached to anything and like the attached the Attachment that a mother has to a child is a really Wonderful part of life like why are you why would anybody want to rid themselves of that and so I was really trying to bring that Perse that kind of Alternate perspective into the stoic practice through Viv and Adora. Thank you, Laura. Thank you Thank you. Thanks for joining us. Yes. So you write on page 75 when a woman decides to leave a marriage as late in life as I did She's not leaving the marriage to find someone better She's leaving the marriage because anything would be better than the marriage. Anything being that she'll most likely die alone Finding a man was never top of mine. It wasn't even on mine. Why was this important for you to explore? Because again, I wanted Adora to be really happy being single. I think that that really was was something where and and perhaps she's in denial a little bit about it and I think that that it it showed her kind of resilience and I think it's part of the Coven is that is that when she she prides herself on Persebing reality correctly and and part of that perception of correct reality in her mind is that in her late 50s You know all the age-appropriate men are dating women in the 30s and 40s and they're not available and they're just not around and Most likely will never happen and so Instead of bemoaning that fate or feeling like a big victim or getting angry at men Why not just make the best of it and put the Coven together and Devote herself to philosophy and her daughter and so I That that's the reason why I was kind of so harsh about that time for a quick break and when we come back Maria shares her favorite quotes from Stoicism about hope and fear and everything in between we'll be back This father's day do more with dad and spend less with low prices guaranteed at the Home Depot Get him fired up with a new grill and accessories like the next grill five burner for just $299 So you can spend more time together while he becomes the grill master He was always meant to be or build memories with savings on top brand power tools So you can tackle projects side-by-side Give more and do more together this father's day with help from the Home Depot exclusions apply see Home Depot dot-com slash price match for details Welcome back to my conversation with best-selling author Maria simple if you've enjoyed learning about Stoicism Cultivating virtue wisdom and resilience share this episode with a friend or family member and now back to the conversation I had my own favorite quotes from the book ceased to hope and you will cease to fear and I wanted to know is that a favorite quote of yours? Well, it's so interesting. I mean, I find it so fascinating because Hope you don't think of as a bad thing. Yes, like I've never seen a cast as a bad thing like as something that makes you afraid But if you really think about it if you're hoping you want something to be Yeah, and it is it's not that's out of your control and so you it does kind of put you in a sense of fear Yes, that you really want the thing to be happening So I think that's just like a very interesting Insight and I think it's true. Okay small-minded people blame others. I said now to Lionel average people blame themselves The wise blame nobody if only right only if only Yes, only it's not enough to be happy you have to be aware of it and enjoy being happy It's a subtle distinction, but it's the difference between Living and being truly alive in that moment. I made a point of immensely enjoying my happiness Yes, I love that I I I don't know how I came up with that, but I just realized that to Blightly go through being happy is not enough life is short and you have to just be so You have to know that you're in the happiness in the happiness and mean so happy like right now I'm very much in happiness over. Thank you very much as I In happiness as I am with you. Go slowly. I tell myself this is my only opportunity to hear the actual words being spoken I love this one because it allows you to my one chance to Ascent to reality before it gets distorted by emotion That is just such a beautiful sentence. It's so true because you know, I have anxiety I think a lot of people struggle with that and that if you're in a situation Often, you know, I'm really the queen of hearing what I want to hear and not what somebody said and so I really try to just take out all of You know what I want to have happen in the interaction and just try to say what is actually happening so that when I think about it later I have the facts and not my and I'm not basing it on some fantasy that I wish the words had been spoken I like this when character is fate. Yes, Heraclitus. That's a quiet. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that oh god I think that just says it all. I think that that if you really Intend to be a good person and to be wise and to be modest and to do your work and to keep your head down Then good things will happen to you then I think they will take care of you. Heraclitus character character is fate And this one from the row I'd never heard before my Thanksgiving is perpetual Isn't it beautiful? He said that. Oh, I'm gonna cry. He said that about nature. Yes Yes, my thanksgiving is perpetual right right and I just I love that and and that's what what adora thinks about Actually, I think Thoreau said that about nature and philosophy together that it was philosophy and nature when he He was in in that mindset in nature reading philosophy said my thanksgiving is perpetual So those were mine and then you have a whole handbook of adoras Yes, and that's based on a 70 page one that I made for myself that I keep editing and reprinting Nothing is heavy if we take it lightly. Oh, yes. Yes. The most important contribution to peace of mind is never to do wrong Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks a lot that really helps The greatest remedy for anger is delay. Anyway, all of these are just adoras handbook for how to live Yes, that came from your handbook for how to live exactly. I love it all Thank you. You've said that my number one consideration is always the reading experience. Yes, and we can tell that as As readers that you have us in mind And you say that to me go gentle is a book of ideas. I can't wait to get to talking about it with my readers What is it you hope that the reading experience would be? Well all I want is just a good time, you know, I feel like I just want the page to be turned and for people to get to the end of the book I feel like if they get and I love how quickly everyone I know yeah day and a half. Yeah, it's amazing So I feel like wow, I did it and and so that's really what I want to do and you know I'm not really trying to expose people to stoicism, but apparently I have and they do it So that's kind of amazing. That really was never my intention, but I think I You know want to show people a good time and maybe laugh along the way and feel along the way You know and learn to love better. I think ultimately this is a book about love and loving better and so I think that that really should be What art does you know is make you want to love better? Well, that's what you do and I thank you for doing it for showing us a good Time and go gentle which is available wherever you buy your books and thank you all the readers who Got their copies in advance and we're able to share your questions with us today Talking about great books is one of my favorite things to do my 120 second book club pick go gentle is available now wherever books are sold go well everybody You can subscribe to the over podcast on youtube and follow us on Spotify apple podcast or wherever you listen I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody