MARC MARON Talks Trump, Cocaine, and the Death of Podcasting

[MUSIC] Who took like the nastiest shit at your house? Glenn Howardton. How bad? Well, he just like couldn't hold it. He fucked your shit up? Well, he told me he was gonna get in the middle of the episode. No, he got to the house, he was like, I'm sorry. I got a crap real bad. Did you ever have sex with someone right after you did a WTF for them? Uh. [MUSIC] Ladies and gentlemen, uh, the legend Mark Mare and everyone. [APPLAUSE] Wow. Hey, man. I'm running. He's done this win. All right, man. He's done this, uh, you've done this 40 times. I'll let you run. I ran out. You ran out. I'd never, never done that with, uh, any, none of them. Never ran. How many times 40? You're 50 Conan's. Yeah. Couple Letterman's. Falons. I don't think I've ever run out like that. Who's your favorite was? To talk to you? I'll be late like us. You know, I, it's weird because I, I don't get pushed back, but people are surprised when I say it. The most fun. Lano. Lano. Who? No. Uh, uh. He's fouling really because he's a good audience. Yeah. Like he literally, you get the feeling when you go out there that he wants you to make him laugh. Oh. Like he's kind of like, how are you gonna do it? He's kind of sad when they made him like, have to talk about Trump. And he's like, had to learn who Trump was and like, yeah. They, I don't know like, you know what? Like, I don't want you to be the silly guy. Yeah. Yeah, but he is sort of the silly guy. I don't think he's not really, was never really a monologue guy. Yeah. And they, and they kind of kind of pressed those guys into that mold to do those jokes. I think there was like, uh, like a shock in 2016. And he also had Trump on the show. Yeah. And it was like, he, he played with his hair. Do you regret having Trump on your show? I, I don't. Yeah. I, he was really one of the most entertaining guests I've ever had. But you, you called it a full-throated endorsement. Do you regret? I mean, a lot of people like Theo Vaughn, Joe Logan, you know. Yeah. You know, and they were waiting for you to do it first. And then they were like, okay. Now, now we can do it. No, I just felt like this guy's going to be fun. Yeah. You know, he's generally funny. Yeah. He doesn't know it. And he's interesting to sit across from him with that, you know, with the whole Trump thing. Yeah. And, uh, very entertaining. Everything was, yeah, it really worked out well. Uh-huh. It's so funny because people would ask me because I had Obama on in 2016 in a sitting president. And they would ask me and my producer, would you have Trump on? And we would always say like, yeah, if he did it on Obama's terms, which was. Which is what? No pre, no pre-interview. Uh-huh. And no control over the final product. Uh-huh. Like we had, you know, we would put out. You told the president that. Sure. Yeah. And, but Obama's like, you know, he can handle himself and is interesting. And, at least has a way of presenting himself that, uh, you know, is engaging and makes sense. Well, he's not as good looking, of course, of all of. I don't know. I think he's a pretty attractive guy. No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if he's a Donald's this guy. Well, yeah. He's good. Well, yeah, he's good. He's good. He's a Donald's like, you know, like Hulk Hogan. Yeah. Like Gorgeous George. Yeah. Like a great wrestling heel. Grab him by the pussy. Yeah, he does a lot of that. I remember the, the, the, what he said right before, he said, I came at her like a bitch. And I grabbed her by the pussy. But like a bitch was a peculiar thing to say. He's a peculiar man. But what does he mean? Like a bitch. Like he's a bitch or like, I know she's the bitch. I came at her like a bitch. But this is the first time I'm really hearing this. So like, I'd really have to think about it more. I'm not sure what that means. Yeah. Like he is outside of being, you know, instinctively evil. And, and horrendous. He's a peculiar man. Yeah. I think that like he's sexually peculiar. People don't physically peculiar. Yeah. He's, you know, psychologically can peculiar as no taste. Like there, there are so many things going on every day because of him and inside of him. That every day it's sort of like, it's surprising. Yeah. Just how fucked up and weird it's going to keep getting as we kind of drive this empire into the ground. And as he goes more, more, I'm not going to say at the darsler. Sure. As you know, or arsler. They say he's going like he's got dementia. He's got, he's got. I mean, the way he rents a children about like the Biden had needed a machine. I know. I know, but like, I know. I think that's what he looks like just on, not autopilot. But it's just like this weird stream of consciousness that keeps getting weirder. Yeah. Maybe, maybe he'saddled. Maybe he has some sort of dementia. I think his sister and his father both died of it. Really? I didn't know that they'd pass. Oh, yeah. His sister was a federal judge. Well, I think people don't discuss him enough as a, like, human. How that happened. Yeah. And yeah, I think that there's a pain there. I think it was the brother. I think his brother-- Oh, you mean the brokenness? When did that happen? Fred. I think Fred, like, he shared his last, like, vestiges of humanity with, like, Fred. Fred was the namesake and that-- and he killed himself with drugs and alcohol. And Trump is a T-toler, too. He's afraid of alcohol. He frees tears. He's, yeah. Well, he's afraid of-- well, he's also tremendously lonely. He strikes me as lonely, too. Like, that's why he likes the rallies. I think when he's at the rallies, he feels like people like him. And I think a lot of people throw around the word narcissism and narcissism pretty casually. And they don't-- I don't think people really know what a true narcissist is. What is it? And it's Trump. Yeah. Like, a true narcissist with no real conscience, no capacity for self-reflection or self-awareness. A little-- A little gay? Well, he's kind of-- I think so. That's what I'm saying. It's kind of-- It's a Jewish woman. He acts like a Jewish woman. A little bit. No one likes me. Yeah, a lot of that. Oh, yeah. You'd be happy if I was dead. Yeah. And I think that-- I think that all narcissists everywhere are sort of impressed with Trump, because he succeeded in the goal of a narcissist. He actually succeeded in making everything about him. Yeah. Everything. Global. The stick of Trump, you know, the cruel stick of Trump. Yeah. It's also instinctual. It's disturbing. He's the most fascinating person of my life, though. I genuinely think that. And I would argue probably one of the most truly American presidents we've ever created. He's a mirror to totally. Why do I talk that way? What did you do? A mirror. I don't know. I just-- I'm trying to sound smarter around you, though. What do you mean you're smarter than me? No, you're smart. You're smart. You read like books and stuff. Not really. If you ever-- It sounds like you read more books than me. No, no. I mean, listen. I listen sometimes to books. You listen. I never do that. Yeah. I did read a fairly complicated book recently. Do you ever read a book about, like, fucking? Fucking? Yeah. You seem like a tremendous lover. I feel like you're good at fun. I do all right with it, yeah. I mean, like-- You always have girlfriend. Once I get going, you know what I mean? I gotta get going. What does that mean? Like, you know, we gotta-- You have to really start the engine up. Yeah. You know, I got-- You get an erection. You get that going and then get the groove going. Yeah. I do all right. But you know, like-- You have to ask them. You strike me as a person that just knows, like, cool styles. Like, interesting styles of sex. Of sex, yeah, yeah. No, I'm not really a fetishy guy. I just, like, fairly standard stuff. Me too. But very connected. It needs to be connected. I don't want any distance. Yeah, yeah. I want, like, a semi-diotic kind of thing going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. Like, connected. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We fuck the same way. Yeah, probably. I think so. At this point, I'm, like, a missionary style. That's fine. Yeah. And, like, deep eye contact. Sure. Yeah, yeah. You keep the eyes open? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah. And you too. And she looks away. I say, look at me. Look at me again. Where are you looking? Yeah. Look at me. I want to chance-- I notice it's closed eyes. And then, like, you know, I wonder because my eyes are just naturally open. Because it's part of it. I like seeing the whole thing happening. Oh, yeah. That when, like, if their eyes are closed, they open them. And I'm just staring. Yeah. Like, is it jarring? I don't know. I like just making dinner. And we fall asleep watching a girl show that she wants to watch. That's love to me. Is it? Yeah, it's romantic. Yeah. So, you know, we just fall asleep on the couch. And we're just like-- We just made it a nice dinner. And then, we-- She puts on some crap. And I complain about it. I want to watch something else. That's where you're at, huh? But I really actually want to watch the crap. 39. We're the same age. We're the same guy. That's where you're at. Yeah. Just sitting on the couch. And, like, yeah. Like, I'll cook dinner. I'll eat a little something. Yeah. And, like, cooking for them. And then, we'll watch a movie or something. Uh-huh. You know? Oh, I love it. Oh, it's so sweet. And then, she wants to do face masks sometimes. Like, facial masks. Yeah, yeah. Like, like a charcoal face mask. Oh, you do that, too? Yeah. We're like, oh, hello, my man. Yeah, you know. I'm just-- Yeah, you know. Sure. It's the one way you can do blackheads. You don't even record that. Yeah, yeah. Would you ever go to a party where everyone, like, puts their phones in a bucket, and just everyone-- [BLANK_AUDIO] just experiences what it's like to wear a blackface. (laughing) - I didn't know what that was like. - I thought you were gonna do pictures. - It just says that we've all wondered and that no. - I don't know if I've wondered really. - I think I made a terrible mistake in high school. - You did blackface. - It wasn't blackface, but it was brownface. - How was the difference? You went on vacation in Mexico? - No. - What the difference was, I grew up in Albuquerque. - Albuquerque in New Mexico. - Yeah, I'm from the Southwest as well, from Vegas. Yeah. - It's not really. - No, it's similar. I think it's the same as the Mountain West. - No, no. - We're with the gentlemen in the Mountain West. - It's deserty, but it's definitely not that. - Yeah, trust me, yeah. - So I went to, yeah, John, yeah, long before that. - Yeah, that's just kind of way over it. It's kind of a trick. - That's not true. - That's not true. - That's not true. - The pilot, you really take in the comedy dynamic of those two. - Yeah. - It's totally a great shot. - But I don't think it's supposed to be funny. I think it's supposed to be hilarious. - I think it's supposed to be. - Oh, and I'm hilarious. - I'm on the line. - Those two together? - Oh, hilarious. - Heizelberg, and he puts the hat for the Warriors. - Yeah. - The hat's a fucking Charlie Chaplin. - The wife is just, the wife is just like-- - The Charlie Chaplin. - The wife of his character is written by a fucking guy who hates women. The wife character is just a dumb bitch. (laughing) I'm sorry. I don't think she's dumb. I think they have a hard time. They have a special needs kid, but getting back to the brown face. - Oh, yeah, yeah, your brown face, yeah. - So in high school, for Halloween, when I grew up with probably 70% Latino, in Albuquerque, and there were these cool guys in high school, these Latino dudes, it was pretty cholo. So these are still like disco Latino dudes. - Zootzoot, right? - No, not Zootzootz. But like Waste, leather, you know, sort of Waste, leather coats, like bell bottoms, platform shoes. There's a lot of that going on. And there was this guy, I think his name was Vince, Vince Baca. And I just thought he looked so fucking cool. So I dressed up like him on Halloween. - Really? - And I did like brown face like to look Latino. - Well, you're right. - And I wore the coat and the shoes. But like it was in an homage. Like I was-- - To the Austin comedy scene. - Well, that was one of those. - No, but it was like, I thought it was, I was trying to be cool. - Yeah, yeah. - Do look like him. - Was it cool with it? He was cool. - I don't know, I didn't see him. - But I remember-- - But I remember-- - Was it guy at your school or he was a famous guy? - No, he was a guy at my school. - So was he like, that's awesome. - No, he didn't see me in it. - But like-- - Wait, so you're making front of this Mexican kid Eddie? - I guess I was making-- - Behind his back? - I guess I was making front of it. We went to a party and we, oddly, like I kind of passed. - Really? - And it's Latino. - Yeah, you were a La Raza. - Well people were like, whoa, they didn't know who I was. But like, you know, looking back on it, it was horrendous way inappropriate. - Yeah. - And, hold on, it's my buddy, Jerry, hold on. - Can I say how I-- - Sure. - You know Jerry Stahl? - No. - You don't know Jerry Stahl? The writer of "Permanent Midnight"? - No. Can I say what? - It just hung up on him, but I feel like I need to. - What's his vibe? - Hey Jerry. - No, that's not him. That's a voicemail. - Wait, so you were at the party? - Yeah, but like afterwards, it's not-- - 'Cause she got a moment. - There was a moment. - No, I was like, I'm gonna, that's a, that's you wrong for that? I felt bad, but the moment was that like, we were going out and there was, I can't remember why they were at my buddy's house, we were at my buddy Dave's house, he's past. And it's okay. And there was some Latino people there, like the friends of theirs. And they were looking at us like, what are you doing? - Yeah. - You should, yeah, go ahead. - Didn't register it, but looking back on it, I think I need to make an amends to the Latino people out there. - Just you wanted to say, sorry, right now? - I'm sorry, it was insensitive. I really thought, you know-- - You're a kid. - I was a kid, I was in high school, I was probably 15. But like I thought I was doing something fun. I didn't feel like I was making fun of them. I thought it was cool, 'cause I definitely thought that Vince was cooler than me. - Yeah, yeah. - Wait, so he was a popular kid at school. It wasn't like a loser, not a loser at all. So, okay, so you were trying to suck up to him or you were trying to-- - I didn't know the guy really. - You're taking shots of him. - No, my high school was 3,400 people. So, it wasn't like, you know, we all knew each other. It's just like the Latino dudes, they hung out in their little section, and we did our thing and there was a lot of different groups. It's a big fucking school. And he was just one of the dudes who I'd see, you know, walking into school. We weren't friends, and I-- - You spoke weed? - In high school, a bit, yeah. - I used to speak weed, 'cause I like motor, but they like me. - Oh, I don't know, I didn't smoke weed with them. We used to-- - We did school, I think we did school and went to Village in Pancake House and had Wavel's Rancheros, which they served in a giant-- - Green chili for Mexico. - Wow, cool, yeah, green chili. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, what does Vegas have? Not much. - Vegas, yeah. - Exactly. - It's a pretty ecological disaster, shouldn't it exist? - So, that all happened. San Fernando happened before you were born? - Oh, no, no, wow, it was a little kid. It was like '91, '92, yeah. So, yeah, my parents, my dad's an architect. - So-- - That's cool. - And then, that-- - Like a good one? - I think so, yeah. He went to the best architecture of the world. - But did you get a vision? - He doesn't practice anymore. - Doesn't practice architecture? - Yeah, yeah. - But when you look at his, would you say, while we're in town, we should really go see the building my dad designed. - Oh, no, no. He would say that. - He kind of, he finished second in his class behind Zaha Hadid, who became the most famous female architect ever. She was like his best friend. They got a qualify. - Because he went to the-- - My wife's a female. - He went to the architectural association. - Okay. - He lived in London-- - Is he a wife? - He's a wife. Yeah, my mother passed away, but yeah. They had to move here because they called him up to the Civil War in Angola. And so then, my dad was a coward. He didn't want to go with the apartheid military. - So you-- - So they came to, they went to LA. I was born there. And so-- - I guess it takes some sort of balls to go to LA, right? - Well, they left because the-- - Big jump. - And families were annoying, also. Yeah, there was the apartheid-- - It could count families. - But I was on an enemy's list, but also, we had an annoying Jewish families. - In Africa. - And they all followed us here. Yeah, yeah. - But like in terms of what he created. - Yeah, my dad-- - He did university buildings, you know? - And you don't go and look at him. - All right. (barking) (barking) - Yeah, yeah, it's just, it's an exciting family. I guess it's not really exciting, it's kind of-- - But it's like, what it was-- - There's a lot of great stories there, Adam. And my question was-- - You're lucky at me, like it's boring, but like-- - No, I'm not, I'm not, I'm getting nervous. - Listen, can I tell you something? - Let me just tell you something. - Would you be willing to do one last episode of WTF? - I think I'm doing it. - Where I could thank you. - I think this is it. - Because when I was a young comic, I thought if I do well, I could be on WTF. - I think we just did half of it. - Well, no, none of that is going on the show. - What are you talking about? - No, because I was doing a bad job at WTF. - No, you were doing a good job. - Was that crushing? - It was great. - It was a Robin Williams level? - Well, it was better in a way. - That was the, I listened to it yesterday. - You did? - Yeah, the Robin Williams level. - Oh, it's so brutal. It's so fucked. - It is fucked, man. But it was a good time. That was an exciting day driving the Robin's house. - I don't think we'd ever seen him like that. - I don't think you get it. That's why that interview was used a lot in the media after he died. Because I don't think that one exists like that. Because we never saw him as a person. - It was just him and I, though, like what I usually say is that like if there's more than one person, he's going to perform. But the fact was it was just me, and I was a comic. I was approaching him in a different way. So you've got that kind of amazing interview. And I was really doing, it was weird. The reason I was compelled to do it. - How did you get it out of him? What do you think? - What, get what out of him? - Like just the real guy that we never saw ever. - I don't know, how did it start? It's usually the answer to that is in the first five minutes. - Yeah. I think he was ready to kind of also, there's something about it. It was like a perfect moment. - I got tired of hearing young comics or people in general dismissing him like has a joke theme for whatever. You know, like it just, it rang inauthentic and untrue where you have young people trying to make a show, but in this guy did everything. - Yeah. - TV, movies, stand-up, unbelievable. - You know, he had a problem with stealing some jokes, but in the big arc of things, he's a monumental town. So like my reason to go do it was like, to show, it's like this guy's not, you can't just write him off as some joke. - Well, when you're a young comic, you're a hater, and you want to save-- - You're a real comic to be like, oh, he's a fraud. - Well, sure, and I'm sure when I was younger, I said that too, but he was kind of a beautiful guy. - Yeah. - And I think he just wanted to talk candidly. And I think the fact that, you know, I was a comic, made a shorthand, you know, and that we were approaching it in sort of a serious way, but he did a few little rips. He did, he was kind of funny. - The one about the last time he thought about killing himself, where he was with the hooker, and then he says, - It was two years ago. - The Booze Jack Daniels. - It says it was two years ago. I was like, I didn't realize his life was like that. I would have assumed this was in the 80s after doing-- - He had a relapse later in life. - Yeah. - Like, he kind of got a little dicey. It was probably difficult when he was diagnosed with that Louis body dementia. - Yeah. - How did this bore fear? - No. - No, that's not as bad. - That's awesome. - I have body this bore fear. - Yeah. - The Louis body dementia. I think it's called. - Well. - He had it, like, it's a bad disease. - Yeah, sir. - I hope I don't have that. I'm having some tingling. - You probably, I'm having some tingling. - This is a little bit of a Tuesdays with more serious injuries. - Is it me and a dying man or a sharing of wisdoms about the world? - It's not with everybody, though. - Yeah. It's so sad that you die, isn't it? - Okay. - Wait, keep going. But yeah. - But like, I imagine that whenever you got that diagnosis, you're probably fucked up. You know, how's that not going to fuck your head up? - Yeah. The relationship between being diagnosed and him relapsing was, you know, we didn't really get into that. We didn't talk about the Louis body dementia at all because, you know, I don't know if you knew about it then. - Yeah. - You know, but clearly the suicide that he committed was not in the same spectrum of the suicide he was talking about being fucked up on drugs. - Yeah. - Like, it seems that he checked out, you know, as opposed to live with this disabling disease. - Yeah. - Or maybe it enabled, like, he's like, I want to, I want to out, and he would think that all the time. He's like, alright, now I'm going to excuse him. - I'm going to excuse him. - Now I have an idea. - Finally, I got to take it. - Yeah, yeah. Speaking of a disease, I also listened back to the, I was like, I kind of revert. Because as a, before I even started to stand up, I listened to WTF. And it was kind of, yeah. For me, it was like, I loved comedy growing up. And it was like, I just was like hearing about, hearing the guys that I loved, who they were as people. And then I was like, I was like, why don't I just fucking, I've always wanted to. Like, why don't you stop being a pussy? And you definitely want some sort of excuse not to go to law school. - Yeah. - And so, yeah. And then I had to tell my parents, this is my destiny. - How was it planned? - I got shingles, it was so stressful. - Really? - Yeah, yeah. - Did you get the vaccine? - As a young person. Anthony Fauci. Yeah, I got it. - Yeah. - Yeah, I got the good one. - You're just free associate. - Yeah, like Robin Williams. - Robin Williams, yeah. (laughing) - Wait, so, but I listened to the norm episode and-- - The gambling. - You're a person much like myself where it's like, if I feel a certain way, I can't imagine not saying it, right? - Yeah. - Yeah, I think what a man is supposed to do is bury it deep down. And I've never been able to do that ever in my life. And like-- - I buried about halfway shallow grave. - I can't, no, no. If someone's like, what's up? I'm like, fuck you, let's dare. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I've learned how to keep it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's really-- - The act is to behave properly. - It's hard. - It's really hard. - It is. - It's just to be like-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But in a relationship. - In a relationship where they say, can we talk later? I'm like, can you just fucking tell me now? - Yeah, of course. - I'm gonna be thinking about it all day. - Let's ruin it now. - Yeah, yeah. - Let's destroy the day now. Yeah, I'm gonna-- - I'm gonna be on death row all day. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Let's just fuck it up. - Oh. - Your day up. My day's already fucked up. Let's do it. And then later we'll make up maybe. - It's rude of them to be like, you have 10 hours to feel agony. And it's gonna be awful at the end of it. You have a nightmare scheduled in-- - It's an outside chance that it might fade. Okay, but-- - Disappear by the end of the day, buddy. - But then I listened to the norm episode, which is also really special. I was like revising a lot of these episodes that I loved. And just imagining a man that is so noble as to like, if I had terminal cancer, I would be in line at Trader Joe's and be like, sorry, this is bad for my cancer. I would be able to shut the fuck up. - Yeah, can I go ahead of you? - It is just like-- - I'm dying. - It is the most masculine-- - Can I cut in line and look at my lab work? - It's horrible. And he didn't-- He was like a captain of a ship. It's so noble and like a version of masculinity that I could only-- - What him not talking about the cancer? - Him just like being like, I'm not-- Yeah, he'm not telling anyone. - Yeah. - I would want-- (laughing) No, I mean, it's just-- Yeah, and also just hearing him so sensitive and sincere. - Yeah, that was an amazing interview. - It's just an amazing interview. Those two are with guys that were pretty well insulated in their personas. - Yeah. - And yeah, somehow something happened. I mean, like, I didn't know Norm that well. And I was very surprised by that. That's another kind of interesting, singular interview with a guy that didn't talk like that much. - I speculated that maybe it's that Kinnison was his favorite comic and the fact that you had a connection-- Oh, well, Kinnison ruined your life. But the fact that-- I would love to hear more about those days. You were his slave, his boy, his man, his house drug board. - Not quite. - Not quite. - Wait, but like, no, but the fact that you had a relationship with him and then Norm-- - Yeah. - Like revered him. - I don't remember the interview. - I think, that's what I was like thinking throughout. I was like, that there was some sort of connection. But that was me speculating as-- - Yeah. - I'd like to try to reframe your idea about-- - So your molecular relationship. - Yeah, yeah. - You were, yeah. - I don't think he molested me. - No, no. - You may be a baby here. - Yeah, yeah. - Early on. - But whatever life goes on should have. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Who hasn't? - I mean, he's a legend. - First of all, yeah, yeah. - So, no, no, the thing with Sam was it was just a lot of coke. And it wasn't like that I was, you know, when you do coke, if someone has a coke-- - That's so cool. - It's great to, you know, do their coke. - I started-- - It's one of the great things. It's like, oh, you've got a lot of coke. I like to do coke. - I'm going to do your coke. - Comedy, now, when I would start comedy, everyone was a nerd. You got to be there where you were like a-- - Drug addict? - Well, yeah, that's all-- - It's drug addicts around. - But you were getting to be a drug addict with the monster? - With the monster. - With one of the best drug addicts. - One of the great drug addicts. - One of the great, yeah. I mean, I don't know. To me-- - I'm telling you, he gets short-trift, dude. Like, you know, like in the big picture of people. - He's a drug god. He was wrong-minded in a lot of ways. But the way he delivered jokes and a couple of his jokes were just fucking spectacular. - Yeah. - The joke about the Manson family is one of my favorite jokes. - Yeah. - And I don't like his jokes about like it's sand, move, or, you know, leave the alphabet. - Yeah. - All the women's stuff-- - Just be the ill of the dead. - Okay, okay, okay. - But some of the Jesus stuff-- - Yeah. - I liked because-- - That was his background, see? - Yeah. - It was real to him. - Yeah. - And the Manson joke, I think, was the best joke. - It was just like-- He was a guy that was emulated. - Not really. - Not really. - There were pissed off guys. - The pissed off guys. - It was kind of the singular fucking weirdo, dude. - Yeah. - When I got to the store and got the job-- - Do you think Bill Hicks happens without a kid? - I think Bill Hicks happens simultaneously. - Yeah, you think it's just at the same time. - No, they were friends. - They were friends. - Like, you know, Bill Hicks was a kid. - I always connect them. - Bill Hicks was the first, like, if you're gonna start talking about people who-- - Do you think Tom Myers happens if-- - Fucking kids. - Who got fucked up by Sam. Bill comes out to LA with Sam the first time. He's gotta be like 17, you know, with the outlaws, with the guys. I don't exactly-- history of it was. But they came out, Bill was a kid. Sam came out, and he lost his mind, Sam did, and Bill got spit out, and went back to Houston. But they were simultaneous. Did Bill screaming and yelling is very different than Sam's. - Well, I'm not. It put me all game, educated. - What I mean, Bill's process of delivering, you know, is very lyrical, and there's a momentum to it. - Sam is visceral. - Sam is visceral, but also the language of Bill was evolved. - Yeah, correct. - And how he's dropping a landing up his way. - Very written with his thing. - Yeah. - But he am doing this and talking like that. - Maybe they're just-- - It's not Sam. - It's not Sam. - Yeah. - Sam was a preacher and delivered like a preacher. Like, and there's takes of Sam preaching. Somebody just wrote a big piece about it. - I've seen on YouTube some of them. - Yeah. - And he delivers like a preacher. - Uh-huh. - And then the-- - He's a pentacostle, totally. - Yeah. - But the, like, Steve Pearl, a genius from San Francisco. Jewish genius from San Francisco. - Oh God. - Robin took his style from, you know. But Pearl used to say, like, oh, let's go listen to the genius. - Two short screams followed by a long scream. - Oh, genius. - Hey. - So, uh, to break it down, like, this two short screams followed by a long scream. - That, it was, like, a gimmick. Like, Sam, you know, manifested as a clown. Like, he's wearing this fucking dumb hat. He's got his clothes trench coat on. - Well, they're both-- - He's got his other guys in trench coats. Maybe that's why I associate them. - I don't know. They'd bill. I always watch. And they, you know, they, but Bill had a worldview that was, you know, nuanced and aggressive. He was, uh, sort of a conscious intellectual missing throat. Sam was just a fuck you guy. And, but, here's what I'll tell you about Sam. Me and Sam, like, I got to LA and I was, you know, a dormant. And then he was on the road. I didn't really like him from what I'd seen on TV. And then when he got back from the road, he's like, I used to be a dormant, Marin. And I was living in the house that midsts his own. So, Sam just sort of glombed on and that. He knew he could party up there. So, he would just like, you know, he, on, if Monday night was like no cover night. So, he would be waiting for him to show up and be a big fucking thing. And all hollywood, like all the fucking weirdos from the metal. crew and the porn people, it was just like a sword and shit. - It's like that for us too. - Yeah. - But he would be like, you know, Mary, you wanna go get the house ready? I'm like, yeah, sure, man, he ain't gonna give me money and I'd go get a bunch of booze and shit and then we'd just go hang out. So it wasn't like a bitch situation. It was just so nice. - I'm not saying you're actually a bitch, but it was like, what, you were a younger guy. - 22. - That was with my brain. - It broke my brain. - It broke my brain. - And then you were having a wild time. - It broke my brain. I couldn't have it a while ago. I definitely tried to ruin my, the beginning of my career after I left 'cause he got mad at me and I can't tell that whole story. - That's a drug thing. - Or is it codependent? - The whole thing was a drug thing. It involved the satanist and his guitars and me fucking with him. You know, like, I used to fuck with Sam 'cause I knew when he'd lose his mind and I'd like to sort of encourage it. But the thing that I'll tell you that I think is the best Sam story is, you know, I'd asked, like when Dennis Miller was big, right? - Let me see. - Let me see. - Yeah. - I was in a car which in Ingrauffloon, Dennis's brother, Jimmy, in Boston. Jimmy had come to Boston to scout something. He's a manager. And I, you know, I wasn't anybody yet. And I was worked up and I was mad. And I was going on about, like how do you find your voice, man? And Jimmy's in the back of the car. Got your knee in there. And I'm like, your brother did it. How do you figure it out? How do you figure out what his voice was? And Jimmy Miller goes, he's doing Belser. So it's fucking funny. Yeah, babe. It's all Belser. - Yeah, that makes total sense. - Not the intelligence of it, but the delivery system. - And his brother just flamed as well. - Yeah, babe. - Cha, jeep. - Yeah. - It's like Hannibal crossing the Alps. - Yeah, it's all like that. But the babe, yeah, yeah, that's Belser. - Yeah. - So Sam, did I tell you this? I don't know if I did. - I don't know. - I said to Sam one night, you know, Sam, he had a couple of weird impressions that he would do. But I said to Sam, like the same thing, like early on, 'cause one of the first nights I met Sam, we just went one on one with an eight ball and, you know, I was like, I remember at some point, I asked him, like, you know, how do you figure it out? How do you, how do you find your voice? And he says, he says, "Jean Wilder." He said, but listen to it. If you listen to "Jean Wilder" when he builds communically like a young, - Oh, he gets to do what he says. - But, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, but, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. - Yes, he builds. - Wow! Are you guys so careful? Do you care? No. - That's amazing. - It's amazing. - That is amazing. Oh my God. And then at the end of it, it's so crazy. - At the end of the "Jean Wilder" you're going to build, you know, canister goes, "Oh, oh, oh, oh!" But in a build, it's fucking all wilder. - Wow! This episode is brought to you by eBay Live. Here's how it goes. First, you're just watching eBay Live, seeing some rare finds, not even bidding, just lurking, and then you see a rare rookie card. Go for an absolute steal. A 90s handbag comes up and you have to jump in. Maybe put that, ah, put that rookie card in the handbag. Maybe you lose your first auction. You bid again and win. And that winning feeling, it's such a rush because, you know, everyone else wanted it to. Meanwhile, on eBay Live, you don't just watch the action, you're in it. Download the eBay app to stream and shop live. eBay Live, things people love. - I mean, it's, yeah, we were with guys that were like, so the Hulk says, "You wouldn't like to see me "when I'm angry." Like, who would you like to see when they're angry? - That's what we were, the guys were like a front zip American apparel. And then we heard about you guys, and you guys were like worshiping Satan, and like-- - I just learned it at a weird time. - You had guns and like, yeah. - I didn't have a gun. - Did Sammi have it? - Were there guns around? - I missed the guns at the store. - Comedy for us was just a depressing-- I didn't realize what was left of the road when I started working professionally in 1988, right? - I was right before the crash, right? - Well, it was like after the crash, whatever that was, but the world of road comedy, and it still exists to a certain degree. It was just full of guys on the run from this or that, barely making a living, trying to stay away from taxes, alimony. I used to work with a guy named Frankie Bastille, who moved to Boston when I was there, and in the white Boston work, it was a one-nighter thing. That's how I paid my dues. But he comes in from out of town, and he didn't want his name in the paper, didn't want his name on the marquee, didn't want anyone to know where he was working, because he owed back taxes in the old alimony. - Yeah. - So you're dealing with these fucking criminals. There were so many fucking criminals. (laughing) Yeah. I mean, it's just an entirely different thing. I think you like-- I think we'll get to WTF, but we touched on it already, but you've existed in so many different iterations of the world of comedy. - That's true. That's true. And it must be like-- It must be, is it insane to see what's happened to it? I mean, do you think it sucks now? Is it good? - I feel like-- - Would you just focus on yourself? - No, my point of view is evolving. I'm still kind of a slightly kind of, now that I've freedom to kind of think and do the, just be a comic again, you know, it's been 16 years since that podcast, right? So there's sort of be done with that, and then kind of living for the most part of the life of a comic again, you just wander around thinking. Like, you know, I find that I'm still resentful and I still have like insecurity and stuff, but I feel like my point of view on what's happening in comedy now is different. Like, I think I'm more sympathetic than I was initially. I think comedians are too big a deal now. I mean, people are listening to them about, like-- - Well, that's true. The whole thing is so-- - It's hard to track how the live performance-- - People think that comedians are way more important than they are. - But even just outside of like, you know, people going, like, I need to know what's going on in China, let's listen to Tim Dillon. You know, like, I don't know when that happened or why. - Yeah. - He's pretty good. He does it solo. - No, I'm tired. - He's a smart guy. - That's a tough thing. - But like, it's, you know, you're speculating, everyone's speculating, 'cause no one knows you. You know, you're only drawing from the facts that you get, which may or may not be real. And then you're drawing from sources of facts that you, you know, align yourself with, which may or may not be real. And you're speaking to people that are like, mind it, so what the fuck difference does it make? Like, the question is, like, when do comics become a source of information that guided people's lives? I don't know, it's not great. And I've been critical of that to some degree, but it was more of a political problem with people using their voice to align themselves with fascists. You know, that's a problem. - It is most recently actually. - Sure, yeah. - So, and a lot of them, like, even that, they didn't, the thing is, is that people, most people don't think it through. Most people don't have a fucking worldview. They just don't. They're like, well, this sucks. So, fuck, I'm gonna do this. Like, how do you, like, just most people don't have a worldview, do they? - They don't. But the other thing about comedy, though, I feel bad for young comics, because if I had to do the work that they have to do for content creation, you know, just to get, you know, and try to figure out a way in. I mean, I've come from the time of the gatekeepers and the gatekeepers were club owners, and studio executives, you know? That was it. And a club owner could fuck you forever. And that's, like, there was a freedom to that not being the thing anymore. But the idea that in order to just sort of get your, like, toe in the fucking door, you got to generate all this content every day that most of your job is fucking editing and generating content because there is no gatekeepers, and there's no publicity apparatus, and there's no hierarchy. So it's just the fucking, you know, wild west. It's like the primordial soup of comedic chaos. - But the, the, you, I think the rise of the WTF probably coincided with the gatekeepers going away. You can access an audience directly, right? - Yeah, but like, I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. - I didn't, and we started our podcast. We didn't know that you could make money from it, right? - But it was, when I started it, you couldn't. - Yeah. - There was no infrastructure to make money. And so when I started, I didn't know what the fuck we were doing. I just knew that I didn't want to disappear. So, you know, and I just got out of a shitty divorce. I was broke, and, you know. - And you're America too. - Well, you're America, like, yeah, that ended. But the second iteration there. But the point I'm making is that we were audio only, and a lot of guys were audio only at the beginning. - And it's primarily all audio, yeah. - But there was no way to make money. So, at the beginning, we were pulling, you know, radio people, like radio ad consultants, we're the middlemen. So we were doing some form of radio advertising, which I guess at all is anyways. But there was no, you know, platform, there was no advertising platform. There was no, like, there just was no one knew what a podcast was. So we're doing Adam and Eve ads. And, you know, and then we pulled that just copy, you know, sponsor from our streaming show that nobody watched, 'cause no one could stream yet. And they were with me forever. And like, audible. But we were selling sex toys at the beginning. And then sometimes Sherry's Berry. So it's a shitty, you know, like, you know, radio advertisements. - I mean, I'm still selling like boners, stuff. - Do you? - Yeah, I did. I had Zora on the show as one of the ads was boners. I mean, it's just like, I don't care, it's like, what's it? I don't know, yeah, some ship, like we just have Bluetooth, I don't know. We had Bluetooth for a very long time. We just kind of, yeah, I had no idea that podcasting would become my career at all. I'm sure you didn't either. But because you'd bounced around the industry, you were like, at a stage of your career where you had a divorce in the left-air America, the industry, you weren't relying on them anymore. And actually, would you consider that you became a cultural fixture as a result? I mean, it wasn't calculated. But what it resulted in is you talked to Obama twice. I didn't understand. None of us knew, like my producer is a genius, a true genius guy, Brendan McDonald. He's like, politically, he's like, was a great producer, and a real worker, but like a very smart guy. And I just said to him, I said, do you think we can figure this out? We were still in the Air America Studios down on 6th Avenue. And I was like, look, you know, Corolla's doing this, Jimmy, you know, Jimmy Parto's doing it. You know, at Benson, there was only a few people doing it. I'm like, do you think we could figure this out? So we figured it out. So we had no, we weren't expecting anything. And it wasn't even an interview show. We just made the commitment to do a new show every Monday and Thursday. That's it. And we didn't know where it would go. And you know, eventually we were doing it in the studio and then I came back home. And there was a third act. It didn't turn into an interview show for a while. We had this comedy bit at the end where we'd use improvisers to do fake gas. Like, you know, Calvin Nesk. Like, is this real? Is it not real? And that started to drift. But what you're saying is true. That once there was a, like, not a perfect storm. But like, you know, podcasting grew up with all of us. There was a core group of us. And eventually someone created a platform where advertisers could, you know, reach out to podcasts, mid-roll. And then video started. But we were all kind of, it's still really, it's still mostly, for the most part, drive time radio is the model. From most podcasts. Yeah. Over time, you know, the entertainment press started to go on, because, you know, they were, they had a deficit of reporters. So they would pick up. Vulture would pick up our stuff. If I get big guests, the press would pick it up. You know, the Twitter following got bigger. The interviews became news in a certain way. So it started to build out. But my entire career, when I started it, I was at best, a B-room headliner, that all the comics knew. It wasn't that I had no respect. I couldn't sell a ticket. And probably you started a podcast to sell tickets. That's what we were saying. I started a podcast because I was, you know, it was either that or like, put a gun in my fucking mouth. Yeah. It wasn't, I, I had no idea to sell tickets. No, I just knew that I wanted to be engaged, that I knew that I had a skill on those mics, on radio mics. I don't know why, but I did. I was good at it. You've done it for a while too. But not even that long, a few years, yeah. But it, like, it connected. So I just wanted to do that, and I knew once we untethered from politics, that I'm just going to talk. And I didn't, the thing is, like, I didn't want it to be, I didn't want it to necessarily be funny. You know, I wanted to explore what I was thinking, and then have these conversations. It was never about being funny all the time. So the ticket thing, and the TV show, and, you know, building up an audience, it just happened somewhat organically, but there was no intention. We tried to make money. We were, before Patreon, we were like, did tiered donations. I was like, my house, my little 1,000 square foot house was filled with fucking envelopes, with stickers and t-shirts in it, that I was sending to people, sending us money. I had some weird punk girl out in the valley making t-shirts. Yeah. It was crazy. Do you fuck her? No. No, okay. Not that girl. Not that one, yeah. But I feel like, as a result, regardless of intention, became a cultural fixture, and the show became a massive hit. I mean, specifically, you know, like, everyone, like, the Robin Williams episode, I think is how I heard about the show. And then, of course, like, the Louis episode was massive. But what, I guess, by virtue of the show, and your stand-up as well, it's very confessional, right? Yeah. People, you've found people directly, and people, you mean guests? No, you've found an audience, so you've found, like, people were listening. And, like, I know about that. There was a girl that was trying to stalk you, and then you fucked her. Like, you know? You don't like Jessica? Right, yeah. Right, like, I know all about you, because there's this, do you, like, have you, the concept of parasocial? I've got her somewhere together for years. You dated her, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy time, dude. Yeah, yeah. She's okay. You know, but, like, people, like, because of a parasocial relationship that I had to your show, and that, you know, similar to the parasocial relationship people had to my show, there's an intimacy in the medium. Totally. And, you know, like, you are at this point a cultural fixture. The show was, kind of, like, where do you see the show existing, like, as a cultural product? Like, it's kind of a lame question, but like, you know, what, like, what, what, you know, where we get. Space from it. Here's where it's at, right now. Yeah. Like, I don't know how people, who they come up with, anyone's doing. You know, there was a period of time, you know, we had a lot of listeners, we had good, rate sheet, you know, that we made, you know, we did, you know, we did all right with the show. You know, we did a deal with the platform for three years, made some money. But we did, you know, we worked hard, and it was just two of us. And, you know, when it came down to it, to, you know, my producer and I, having the discussion about continuing or not, is that there was never a desire to do video. You know, he's an audio guy. You know, I think audio is a more interesting medium in terms of how it connects with people. You know, then there was periods where a lot of people were pirating the show on YouTube and just putting pictures up and stuff. And we didn't even shut those down, we just added the numbers. We just added the numbers to the whole thing. Also, it's PR. It's fine. It also gets the show out there more. And I think, you know, framing the decision to end the show was really about, like, if you keep potting along and you're not into it anymore. And, you know, you're servicing the industry. You're just getting guests that you may not even be that interested in. That sucks. Well, yeah, but that's going to happen. Yeah. Is it, like, why continue it if it's just a job you don't like when you have complete control over it? As opposed to go, like, we did it. We did it. And now you have a body of work. You're not the guy who's sort of like, oh, is he still doing it? No, we have a body of work. What anyone's going to do with that body of work that almost 1700 episodes, you know, as a resource or as entertainment, I don't know. You know, like-- You can still listen to them all of them. Yeah. And, you know, there was talk of, like, well, maybe we should figure out a way to make it visual and, you know, do a deal. Yeah. And also just me, like, you know, what am I going to do after the podcast? I got to get out there. All of that just went away. And, like, look, it's out there. And I don't need to be out there. It's a great job. But where do you think it exists, like, culture, like, do you conceive of what kind of, what space it occupies? Well, yeah. I mean, I think that I am the show occupy some part of the history of modern media. I just-- it just is. You kind of were the first, like-- Yeah. And I think that-- Like the podcast that I was wearing. I think so. Yeah. And, you know, look, I appreciate that. You know, some people know that. And now, there's no mystery. There's no mistake. There's nothing interesting about podcasting in general. Well, it's just sucks. It's-- I don't know if it sucks, but-- I hate sucks. There was a time where, you know, people would come to my house and be like, where-- where am I? What is it? Who took, like, the nastiest shit at your house? Glenn Howardton. He was disgusting. From-- from-- it's always funny. Yeah. Well, how bad? Well, he just, like, couldn't hold it. Well, he-- he-- he told me he was gonna be in the middle of that-- No, he got to the house. He was like, I'm sorry. Yeah. Did you ever-- do you ever have-- There's only one back of it. I don't think so. Oh, nothing, yes. Okay. What-- I mean, there was, like, there is something like-- I-- I relate to a lot of what you're saying right now, because, like, we-- I-- I did this-- the old show with the Nick and Savon. Like, granted, I was, like, they were, you know, I was, like, kind of, at times, like, you know, the third. Yeah. Right? Sure. And then part of this show is, like, the joke that the least popular guy is going to become a dick-cavit-style public intellectual. Sure. And then kind of the joke became real in some bizarre way. None of it was, like, calculated. But, like, what-- it sucked. We-- it sucked, podcasting for that long. It was-- it's the easiest job in the world, but we were just, like, sick of it. And, like, uh-- and you don't-- I'm not even, like, you ending the show. It's, like-- and that makes total sense. You did it too much, probably. You did a lot, you know? And, like, also, like, we talked a lot of people. Like, I do think that before the medium was inundated, you know, there was a quality of engagement. engagement to the show that I think is stands alone. Like I still think that some of my interviews, like you're talking about Robin, I think they stand alone. You know, and there was a way that I did it. I don't know how or why that I think it doesn't, you know, a lot of people ripped off almost directly my show. - Yeah. - You know, like, you know, Pete Holmes did a version of it. - Oh yeah, Pete Holmes. - And that kid Rosenfeld, I forget his name. - But like, which is fine, I didn't invent. - Pretty much only those guys, though. - Yeah, well, I don't know. It depends, like, I mean, I think I sort of inspired. - Oh, no, not you, but there was, but I have, like, definitely, when I started this show, I didn't know how to interview people. I literally went to the Wikipedia for journalism. And then I was like, who went where, why? And I was like, who's good at interviews? And I listened to Joe Rogan, and like he kind of agrees. A lot of the guests feels like they're crushing. So he's like kind of, like, so he gets a lot out of them, right? And then you, like, he gets a lot out of them because if they didn't talk, it'd be silent. Well, no, but like, if I was on Rogan, I'd be like, I'm being the most convincing guy in the world right now. Like, that's why, like, he'll have Bernie. He'll be like, that's awesome. And then he'll have, he'll have like a guy that says the Holocaust was not-- - Sure. - You know, come on. Who would be kidding with the, you know. - With the Holocaust? - And then he'll be like, that's trippy, right? He'll say it both times, right? But that disarms the guests, but with my stupid Jewish voice, I sound like I'm being sarcastic. I can't emulate that, and that's just not true to who I am. But then I listen to your show, and I was like, you're sufficiently honest about yourself where, like, kind of prompts the guests to feel like they can be honest about themselves. And then I was like, and then I don't know me. I grew up listening to Stern, right? And what Stern was able to do was, he was in the first 90 seconds, become your best friend, right? And it was like magic, yeah. Did you get better? Like, like, what did it come down to? - Do I feel better? - No, no, after talking to someone. - Did you get better at, like, a craft? Like, did you feel like you were developing a skill? And then do you feel like you misusing that skill down? Like, or-- - No, I'm not doing it anymore. I don't think I ever misused the skill, but there was definitely, I definitely had a few-- - No, not misused, like, you misusing it. - Oh, I misusing the skill. Yeah, I mistalking to people in an engaged way for a long period of time, like we're doing. But there was also sort of, like, like, I had a few things that I would, a tools that I would use that I grew to know. But ultimately, I had never had any idea how the conversation would go, ever, ever. And that was always sort of part of, that was always part of what drove me to keep doing it, is I would get nervous between every interview, because I didn't have an iPad in front of me. - I haven't looked at it, it was, I was looking into your eyes. - I'm not judging you. But I would make sketches of, you know, a few things, but they became smaller and smaller. I do random, you know, research. You know, if people had big careers, I'd want to make sure to honor that over having a personal interview. Like, if I'm talking the way I'm freaking, you know, or these guys that have monster sort of filmographies, you know, I'm not going to do the same kind of interview that I would with somebody. - Your daughter, yeah. - I want to make sure I give them the respect they deserve. So, but there was definitely methods, but the thing that really kept me going, was that like, I really didn't know. I didn't know if somebody would lock in, I didn't know, you know, what their, you know, boundaries were-- - What's the worst word? Ben Kingsley. - The worst. - What happened? - The worst. - He's just a fucking asshole. - Really? - Gandhi. - Gandhi's an asshole. - He's an asshole. - Totally. - What was he like? - What did he say to us? Is he proper? - He's British, and he's knighted, bad combo. - Well, they do it for everyone. - But he, well, he's just thought he was better than you. - Not only that, like, he was going, you know, he wasn't going to have a conversation with me. Like, there was a mode that he operates in. - Yeah. - And I didn't know it. You know, I never know it, my producer would tell me something, but we didn't know this. I didn't know Neil Young was notorious, we prickly with reporters, but I ended up having a great time with Neil Young. But Kingsley, like, you know, I don't think he knew what he was doing. You know, the movie he was promoting was kind of garbage. It was okay. He played "Solid Door" Dolly, but he came in already with an attitude, a bit, like, what are we doing? Where are we going, you know, and we go outside and he commented on my lavender plants, whatever. - In a bad way? - No, as he rooted. - No, and then we get into the room. He goes, "May I have a glass of water?" And I'm like, "Sure, I don't have any glasses." I just have a mug. So, like, I feel like that, like, I don't know if he felt this respected or what, but I tried to sort of, like, engage with him around, like, Jessica Chastain had mentioned to me on an interview that, you know, he had helped her out before she went to India, gave her some advice. So, I started with, like, you know, I recently talked to Jessica Chastain. She said, "You guys had talked before she took a trip there." And he was like, "No, I don't, no." - Oh, he's fucked up with you. - He just shut down. - Why don't he go? - Well, that was the question. Is that, like, I don't give a fuck. - Maybe he's on a press tour, and he's like, "I'm exhausted." - He was on a press tour. - I'm exhausted. - No, he wasn't exhausted, and he was a cunt. So, you know, he decided that he was not going to engage with me, that he was going to dictate what he was going to say, that there was not going to be a back and forth, that he was not interested in that. And I could have said, you know, 10 minutes in, I'm like, "Look, dude, we don't fucking need to do this. I don't care. I don't care. You can go the fuck home." - You said, "Go on with your business." - But instead, I remained gracious. And I followed his release. Like, I didn't care. We could have dumped that episode. Differences are made. - How many did you dump? - Toe, and because of that kind of shit. - No, yeah, in total. I was, I know about a story, but you may not have shared from some of that knows you. - Well, David Fincher, you shelved it. - He wanted it shelved. He talked to him for two hours. He said, "I don't know." And I'm like, "All right, what are we going to do?" - It's meticulous. - Neil Brennan was like 50 takes, right? - Yeah, but not with the podcast. - Yeah, well, to do 50. - Neil Brennan wouldn't let us run the interview I did with him originally, 'cause he didn't feel like I respected him properly. - Oh, okay. - And he's right, but it wasn't that bad. - What about, oh, yeah. Oh, Gavin McGinnis, that was like, yeah, but we-- - It's a good story. I don't even know, it was like, it was on me to protect him. - Yeah, I mean, but it's the most, I've been told by someone that knows you about what happened and it's, is insane. - Well, tell me what happened, 'cause I've been told, is that he showed up to your house with a six pack and he's like, "Do you want some alcohol?" And you're like, "I go to comedy clubs every night." - Yeah, like, what are you doing? - I'm not gonna relapse, like-- - Yeah, like, he was fucking with me, but like-- - But it's just like the worst prank ever. It's like, he doesn't even make it, he says. - No, but he's a dick. So, but that's what he does, that's what, that was before he became some sort of, like, right wing leader. - So he was just a dick. - He was a purpose dick. - Yeah, with a six pack of beer. - But the weird thing is I've had alcoholics in there that needed to drink during the show. - Yeah. - I've had, you know, weed heads that needed to smoke during show. I don't give a shit. - Oh, that's against the law. - What do you mean, at the time it was, yeah. - Whatever, like, you know, I don't like, I understand drugs. - Would you let an underage person drink alcohol? I don't, WT, no. I wouldn't either. - It's not weird 'cause I was talking about the other day, like, in New Mexico, you drive his license to 15. And we just drive around. And we go to liquor stores and get grownups. We do, I do get a six and fucking bud. - Would you do a brown face? - No, no, before you got this. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I would never do a black face. It was always in brown face. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. - Many times I was trying to get by blues. - Yeah, yeah, they were like, it's part of me, sir. - Yeah, yeah. - But, no, but, like, looking back on it, like, what kind of fucking grownups are like, - Sure, kid. - But I know exactly what kind of, I know it's like to be 15 and not be able to drink. - Do you have a reservation near where you grew up? - Not too far. - Did you used to buy illegal fireworks? - No, it was up, no. - We used to buy illegal fireworks. - At the reservation? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Oh, so anyways, with Gavin, he was there promoting, like, a bad movie, it was about a comic. It was really a press junkie. - Yeah. - And, you know, and there were moments there when, you know, he kind of, you know, he got kind of real. Me, we talked about, you know, the advertising. We talked about his career, 'cause I didn't know him to be like, you know, the, it was pre-proud boy thing, right? - Yeah. - He just missed out on like, $40 billion by, with the vice. - With vice, yeah, yeah, I think so. - But then he started his own agency, and then he made this movie where he played a comic, and that was the, like, that was why he was there. And ultimately, what happened is we had a conversation, and I thought he was pretty, you know, relatively vulnerable about his life and his family. Like, it wasn't a bad interview for WTF. - Uh-huh. - But then, like, before we released it, he got into all kinds of fucking trouble with a transvestite situation. I don't remember what the trouble was, but there was a public problem with him. - Yeah. - And what happens, when that happens is that, you know, we're gonna put out a podcast where, because it was, you know, in the can, you know, which is not unusual, that, like, how are we gonna release it with all this shit going on without addressing it? - Yeah. - So it really became the issue was, like, like, unless we have him back, or whatever, that, like, it'd be weird to, like, to release this with all this shit going down. - It was about that. - He was, like, look at this beer. - No! - What was his expectation that you were, like, can I suck your penis, please, for one of those beers? - No, he was just fucking with me. Like, which is fine. - Oh, he was doing that as a bit. - I don't know if it was a bit. - Okay, so I got bad info. - No, it's not bad info, that happened. - I mean, it's peculiar. - But what, it didn't have any effect on me. - I'm sure it did. - Why do you do that? - But he did do that. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, and I didn't really realize it until after. - What about me? - He was bringing the beard of fuck with me, like my sobriety was that fragile. - Yeah, they were like, oh. - No, the reason we didn't err it was like so mundane. It was really just because, you know, we did not address what was now a public issue or a scandal. I don't remember what he did, but I remember that's why. It wasn't like, we don't want to give this guy air. - Is it true that? - It was a pretty like run-of-the-mill WTF. - Louis wanted to come back out and address his stuff. - No, not that I know of. - He never reached out. My understanding was that he reached out to you to come back on after the stuff. - No, no, he didn't. Not that I know of, he was just mad. He was mad at me, like he didn't talk to me for a long time. - Yeah, for like, you spoke out, I guess, you said that. - I don't know if I spoke out. Well, you did a kind of, you know, I mean, like I didn't know the extent of the issue. And then, you know, we were connected in the evening. - In that episode. - Yeah, two episodes. And, you know, we'd been friends a long time. And, you know, when this shit hit the fan, you know, we had to say something. It was a Sunday that the time thing came out. And people were like, you know, on Twitter coming at me. I'm like, look, we'll address this on the show. And, you know, in me and Brendan, we talked about it. Basically, I said, look, he's my friend. Like, I didn't know the extent of this. And there was, he did lie to a degree. And, you know, but I'm still his friend. So, like, you know, he wants to, you know, that was it. - And that upset him? - I don't know if he was into how I framed it, you know, which I thought was, like, reckoning out. He probably saw an article where you were supposed to be. - Just a quick bait, even. - Yeah. - But, like, I thought that it was as diplomatic as possible, given the situation. And that, like, what did he expect us all to die on that hill for what? - Yeah. - Well, ladies and gentlemen, Louis, he can't-- - Okay. - I know we're okay now. Like, I mean-- - You guys talked though? - Yeah. - Yeah, cool. - But not privately. I mean, when I see him, he's nice to me. - I know, so much about your relationship with this guy, 'cause if you buy him-- - Yours, like, he wouldn't, like, talk to me at all. - Yeah. - You know, if I'd see him, he'd be very weird. But lately, he's been all right. - Has he told you what he was hurt by? I mean, I'm gossipy. You deal with it with your friend. I don't know. - Well, all right. I'll tell you. - Did he want you to reach out? 'Cause that's what happened in the first episode. - Well, I just perverse. I'm voyeuristic that I know all this crap. - No, it's like, it's like, you know, this is more stirny than, you know, than me. - I know. - I'm proud of it, I'm proud of it. - Yeah. - Well, no, it wasn't, like, it just was weird. And then he had reached out years after, you know, everything went down with, he'd watched one of my late girlfriend's movies. - Yeah. - And he reached out and he said, look, you know, I watched one of Blin's movies and it was really beautiful. And, you know, he framed it really weird, like, about our relationship. I wonder what it was like to be, you know, love somebody like that or whatever. But it was the first time-- - I'd heard it from in a long time. - Yeah. - That sounds nice though. - And I basically said, I said, look, you know, we've both been through a lot, you know, you've been through a lot, you know, my, you know, my girlfriend died and whatever. And like, you know, so I acknowledge that, you know. And, you know, and he got back again, relatively and sensitively, he said, you know, he was willing to talk to me. And I said, I'll talk to you, but I'm not going to read, but yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna, like, talk about how I handled your problem. - Oh, maybe that's what I misunderstood as what was supposed to be on the podcast. That was supposed to be a podcast episode. But you said, just hang out. - No, no. - Okay, so I'm misunderstood, yeah. - You know, I'm just like, I'm not gonna read, we're not gonna go over that. - Yeah. - And he said, you know, I kind of would have to do that. I'm like, no. - Yeah. - Well, maybe he was trying to be on the podcast. I didn't even think of that. - I don't know. I mean, he didn't come off that way. - That episode is so singular. I mean, in a odd way, it was like a great for the show. You know, but it's also just like. - It defined the podcast. - But it's also you getting accused of being a bad friend by someone. You know, it's just like. - Well, you know, you kind of, I don't, I don't know in retrospect. Like, you know, I, - He was cool with it being posted, right? Obviously. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I took that from him. - Yeah. - You know, I do, like I will defend, you know, my own position around falling back when friends of mine get very successful. - Yeah, it's hard. - It's self-protective. - Yeah. - And like, and I understand what he was saying, but it's very hard if you're still coming up or trying to be something on your own, to sort of not become part of somebody else's thing, and not to feel like it was, it's, it's not petty, but it's jealousy and it's, you know, it's insecurity. But I think that those two episodes, you know, I think really help define - It's a very comedy comedy for that to happen. - Of course, yeah. - Yeah, but like, you know, with friends, yeah. - Well, Joe Rogan, like, attacked me for that too. Like, I stopped being friends with any of my friends to become famous and sort of like, yeah, because I'm not famous. - Yeah. - You know, like it's actually like, just, but we're not that, but it's not like we're, our friendships, you know, because we're in the same community and we have an understanding of each other. There's very much a shorthand both emotionally and psychologically and in conversation. But like, rarely are we inseparable friends. So like, a lot of times you're just, you know, you work together, you have respect for each other, and then someone goes their way. The one thing I learned with Kennisin is like, you can't tie yourself to somebody. You can't be part of someone's fucking, you know, entourage. You can't be part of somebody's bus tour, you know, because like, how are you gonna surface from that? You're just gonna be the guy who, you know. - You gotta be a man at a certain point. - Well, you gotta do your own shit. I mean, I wouldn't ever even open for headliners. When I, once I became a headliner, I wouldn't open for anybody. - Sure. - But it's just my own pride. - No, but that's like, you should, the career wise you shouldn't be open. - I guess, my career was like, I lucked out, dude. I, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I think that you made something that was a pretty, yeah. - Pretty beloved. - But I think that the Louis episode sort of defined the possibility of podcasting, you know, and it got a big, a lot of attention on slate and everywhere. That, you know, there, there was a type of intimacy that was rare and not necessarily heard that often. And it became sort of, you know, the way I did it. - I think, I think, I can relate a lot to what, I did a show with two guys and we'd see each other every week for like eight years. And then we're middle ages at a certain point and yeah. - Almost. - I think so. 39 sucks. It does suck. 'Cause it's like, this guy's about to be 40. If I'm 40, they're like, this guy doesn't give a fuck. Yeah, they're like, this guy's just living life. 39 is like, he should, he stinks. - Yeah, he stinks for me. - Whatever, we're, you're handsome. You look great. - Thank you. - In thinking about the Louis episode, how you communicate to an audience is like me, feeling like I'm a come-town fan right now, genuinely like I know so much about you from how open you are. - Never watched one episode of that one. - Has it, it's fine, it's all you have. - I heard years later that you guys talk shit about me. - Well, we was later. - I invested back to it before, but Mark and I had a beef, by the way, that we squashed, we realized that the Jack Boots of Austin are on the march, you know? And the two of us are the Vanguard democracy needs us, okay? We can't be fighting with each other. - Is that why we squashed? - In our community, no, but-- - The new public intellectual. - No, but in reality, in reality, like, I would imagine like, from my experience of like, people having this kind of relationship with me, one time I had a breakup, right? And I would leave the house and people would like, - All right. - Bring it up to me, and I would imagine like, have you seen the deconstructing Harry? - You know how like, Woody's this writer that writes about everyone in his life and everyone hates him? You know, do you think-- - That the parasocial relationship of candor is-- - What do you think, be so open about your own life has hurt people that are actually in your life? - Well, I had to learn, I had to make decisions around that. - Yeah. - And, you know, weigh them out. But I always used to have to do it with comedy, too. Like, when you're talking about your wife, or you're talking about your girlfriend, and you're talking about intimate details, you know, at some point they got to sign off on that shit, or else you're willing to risk the relationship for the comedy, which happens as well, and has happened. But, but I think the most succinctly it was put to me was I was with a woman, and, you know, and we had issues or we broke up, and I talked about it, and she goes, well, I don't get to respond, where I don't get to tell my side of it, so why do you get to do that? - That feels bad, did you feel bad? - Well, I think it was right. - Yeah, so, like, I tried to, and also because of my nature, you know, I stopped talking specifically about relationships, especially about my last one, because like, for the first 16 years, I've been through several, so my listeners get invested in this arc, and then eventually it's got to break up, and then like, you know what I mean? - So you're getting pushed into this as a rule? - I do, I'll write it, generally, but the, you know, but the arc of it, well, you know, - Then Lynn died, and that was fucking nuts. - You went through that also a huge personal tragedy, publicly. - Did the fucking two days after? And why would I do that? It felt to me that that was the thing to do. - That's all you could do. - Well, I mean, I didn't have to do that, but I felt that it would be of service to somebody, not to me to get on the mics two days after my girlfriend dies, crying and experiencing that publicly. I didn't do that for me. Like, I felt like, look, we do a show every Monday, and this is where I'm at, and this may help people. Grief is a fuck, it's a fuck, and how people deal with it, I don't know. But it's not something a lot of people talk about, it's not something people do publicly. Sometimes you feel like you can't do it. - For sure, it helped people. - Yeah, that's, well, that was my thought. - I'm sure it said, yeah, I mean, I think all of it did. The comedy I did on it, you know, but it was terrible. That whole thing was terrible. But that's special, I think I did all right with. - Yeah, I think it was a, you really, you did what you could do. - Yeah. - I mean, you were gonna go up there and talk about Tinder, right? - No, I never, you never have, right? - I've never been on Tinder. - You never have? - No. - What do you, so what's your, what's your system like? - I don't know. Usually if somebody kind of knows me, or they're persistent, they might win me for a few years. - But then they're gonna think that you're better than you are, if they're like, if they're a fan of yours. - Eventually, disappoint them. - Yeah, and then dating fans is a sure way to lose fans. - Yeah, yeah, 100%. - Eventually. - Can I, can I ask you something? Does this feel like the last episode of WTF? I mean, genuinely, when I was a young comic, I was like, one day I could maybe go to the cat ranch and maybe, and maybe, would you regard this as Barack Obama as the penultimate? And you were number one? - Not number one, I'm the number last. I'm the last, you're saying that this in some way. - Does this, 'cause I never got to do it. - And you let stop do it, and I never got to do it. - No. - It's not fair, and. - Well, I mean, what were you doing anything? - No. - I was doing nothing with my life until three years ago. I tried for the first time, yeah. - But I mean, like, what, like this show didn't exist. - I didn't exist, it did exist. - You're a huge fan, you love that, dude. - Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see clips, clips come up occasionally. - But this is a very different episode of the show because I think that there's a lot more of a commonality, I think. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I can relate to it. - I didn't exactly know where you were coming from and my assumption with certain people is that they're gonna fuck with me and, or that they, you know, they're aligned with somebody who doesn't like me. - Yeah. - Ladies and gentlemen, Joe Rogan. - Yeah. - But I've known that guy for my entire life. - Yeah, you're my guy. But just outside of Austin, you know, that, whatever, I've known Joe since he started, you know, in Boston. So like, it's not, he's just like not some surprise out of nowhere. But it's weird when you have this history collectively with all these people and then things get weird. But no, my point was, like, I'm not totally sure why we didn't have you on towards the end of the day. - No, you don't have to apologize because this is what you were coming from. - This is even better. - I wasn't sure where you were. - Well, you thought, stop is coming from a good place. - Well, he's a, he's a funny guy. - He's a funny guy. - He's a, like, he's a disabled fat, he's the fat body. - No, he's got a, like, he's got a, like, my body. - You know, like, I reminded you too much of a, a plucky-eyed kid in New Mexico. - No, no, no. - No, I think you would. - No, I think you would know. - No, it's not the best. - I didn't, I didn't know him. But I thought he had sort of an interesting chipper disposition. I think we were just saying, how I shit my pants is up. I think that people gave, people gave you bad intel. - Oh, really? - No, I feel like-- - And also, we were kids too. We were probably-- - No, I hated everything. - We buried this hatch at a long time ago. - No, but I want to do a publicly, you and Louis. So I can live my fantasy. - Okay. - Wait, where? - I forgive you. - We're talking shit about me on come down. - Mark Marin is a Charlotteson. Where in the hell is that come up? - No, I want to find, I have a question for you. That's a very special question. I want to know about the gig on Cape Cod. Where the couple, you forced an innocent, a husband and wife to be incarcerated. I want to know, is that right? - No. - Yeah, so Tony V said that, you had hecklers, you had trolls. - Johnny Yees on Cape Cod. - Johnny Yees on Cape Cod, who they're coming at your ass. Yeah, let's hear it. - I don't know if he's remembering something that didn't happen. - I moved up on this Johnny Yees, but Tony said, - Tony V said you were at Johnny Yee, okay? - And that like I got a drunk couple arrested. - You had them sent to the slammer, Guantanamo Bay. - If that happened, I had no idea that that happened. Like I do. - Call Tony V. - Like it's not outside of the possibility that Tony's fucking with you, but like I remember Johnny Yees, and I remember doing Johnny Yees. But like what he's saying, like there were a couple that was drunk and heckling and I had the cops come. - You had the police, you said, you were a Karen. You took a cell phone out, you were like, "Shake it," you said, "Police." - You said that we were here, you said that. - You were gonna tell us this amazing story, and this was gonna be our big closer. And I, that's why I was looking at that. - I think he's fucking with you. - This was gonna be the last finale of the episode. - The last time I did Johnny Yees, I don't even think-- - Tony V's story about you had Johnny Yees on Cape Cod. - I know, but I don't even think there were cell phones. I do not, the police were involved. - You don't know how high the corruption went. It's straight to the top. - I'm commissioning. - Tony this right now, it did not happen to me. I'm not saying Tony's memory is wrong, but you get older and he might have put me into a memory, but that didn't happen to me. - So you're saying he's seen out. - I'm saying Boston comedy legend Tony V. Is it seen out? - I'm saying this old cra- - What I'm telling you is that, either he's fucking with you, or he's misremembering something, or the third possibility is that I didn't know that went on. - Mark, it's the question everyone has wanted me to ask for you. - What is it? - Maybe he should, will he pick up and tell him there's a lost egg at the number? - Hold on. - You know Tony, maybe I think I might have his number. Hold on. - He's a Boston legend. - I know Tony. - You should just tell the audience. - Oh here, everyone knows him. - Let's see if there's still this number. Hold on. - I got it, I got it. - Huh? - Now he's gonna think you're mad at him. We've started to beat him. - Hello? - Hey Tony. - Turn it up, turn it up, the volume. - Hey Mark, Marin, how are you? - I'm fine buddy. Up the volume a little bit. - I've been checked and guessed what this call is about. - Oh yes, yeah, I'm with Adam, and like, I don't, by the way, shut up the minute. - Beside him. - Okay, sorry. - I don't remember, I don't remember this story. - In all honesty. - I remember the story at Johnny Yves. - I remember Johnny Yves. - Yes. - It was you and me, and I think Chris Zito. - Really? - Yes. - Okay, and what happened? - It was shit, this guy. - And there was a drunk woman hatchling throughout the night. - And I was hosting. - Yes. - Okay. - Going and then finally, the audience turned on the woman. - Good. - And the cop came in who I happened to know. - Right. - And then they took her out of the room and then the husband got involved and they both got arrested. - Okay, okay. - It was the wedding day. - This is the wedding day. (laughing) - Oh, that's great. (laughing) 'Cause like, no, but the way. But the way that the judge was framing it. - They got married that day, Mark. - And his parents shut up. - Had to have arrested. - Adam was framing it and his shaky get his boots in his way that like I somehow facilitated all that. - 'Cause you're against free speech. And that woman was doing-- - No, no, you didn't facilitate all that. It just happened throughout the evening. - Oh, I'm sure. - His father called. - Yeah, well thanks for quitting that app, Tony. You doing all right? - Yeah, yeah. - I love you, man. - All right. - Yeah, yeah. - You too, all right. - Much respect, Tony. They got married that day. Mark, wait a little more. - Well, that is, that was matching. (upbeat music) Shut up, Barry. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)