Marc Brackett (on emotional intelligence)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to arm chair expert experts on expert. I'm Randall Shepherd Cobb, techs Hobbs. And I'm joined by Monica Padman. That's boring. I know it's too many. I know what it's okay. It's okay. It had already tipped in the first one. Today we have Mark Brackett. He is the founding director of the Yale Center for emotional intelligence. And a professor at Yale University. He's also a best-selling author with the book Permission to Feel. And of course, the book he's here to talk about dealing with feeling. Beautiful episode. I gave I've already recommended it to a few people. Yeah, he's a special, special dude. It's including yourself. Yeah, it's incredible. If anyone has a kid at a school where the curriculum is SEL social emotional learning, that's Mark. Yeah, that's his curriculum. Anyways, please enjoy Mark Brackett. I'm there. Welcome, Mark. Thank you. Nice to meet you, Monica. Where do you live, Mark? I live in two plays. I live in New York City. OK, and I live in the countryside of Connecticut. Oh, OK, speaking of virtue of a nice sweater on. Yeah, you do have a nice sweater on. There's a lot of fun colors around the collar. I actually was like, wait a minute here. I'm a little matchy matchy with my socks and my family. It's nice and Monica's the perfect person to observe this because she's a fashionista. Oh, OK, I do like fashion. And look, the collar is kind of man. They kind of I worked hard to get this collar right. They did not want to do it. Yeah, you're very stylish. You have beautiful Adidas. And these Adidas are of the current trend. I've noticed the cooler people at my kid's school. Which way do they go to school? This charter down the street. OK, because I do, I work with thousands of schools. Your curriculum is at this school. The SCL curriculum. It is, it is. Oh, that's amazing. I probably rare that you would be interviewed by someone who's child. It's the product of your brain child. Only two people, Christy Tegan. Oh, OK. OK, but let's start at the beginning, which would be New Jersey. My first question is, how does one determine whether they're going to spell Mark with a C-E-R-A-K? I mean, my hunch is that it's a Jewish thing, actually. Oh, OK, that makes sense. I don't know why. I go up Jewish and Mark in the Bible is with a K. I don't know, I mean, something like that. OK. And your dad was-- My dad is not Jewish. He's not Jewish. No, he converted. Was he a charismatic man? I wouldn't say charismatic. I don't know what I would say. It depends what day it is. Is he still alive? No, both my parents have died. So it's easy for me to write about them and talk about them. Exactly. Yeah, I have that luxury too, my father. Good guy. But charismatic, I wouldn't describe him. OK, I just salesman. That's generally-- He wasn't-- he wasn't-- he was a repairman. Oh, he was a repairman. And tell me about your mom. She also was a character. She grew up in the Bronx. My grandfather owned a liquor store. I think he was a crooked liquor store owner. Oh, wow. One of his clients was Jake Lamata, I remember. Oh, the boxer. Yeah. From my mother's gathering, he would pour half the bottle and put water in it. Because he was so drunk that he could sell half the bottle. Oh, OK. Yeah, my uncle was not known for his scruples. But was he top if you're from the Bronx and dead on the liquor store? She was neurotic. And how did that manifest? I think she was more overly attentive to what wasn't happening for her. Oh, OK. That's why I'm a psychologist. Research is me, sir. Yeah, we're off in a row. To get some answers that alluded us in our childhood. But tell me about childhood. Like, grew up in Northern New Jersey. Two parents. Does that mean it's close to Manhattan? Yes. 25 minutes outside the Lincoln tunnel. Little town called Clifton. Next to a more poshie town called Montclair, which people have heard. I've heard of that. That's where Bobby Brown restored that amazing hotel, I believe, right? I think you're right. I don't go back too often. So yeah, two parents, mom, dad, two brothers. They're technically half-brothers. My first book, which is called "Promission to Feel." I go into a lot of detail about that, which is that from the age five to 10 abused by my parents' best friend. Which was a neighbor? Yeah. Also a cubs scout. He was a worker at the boys club, where I would go after school. And-- Yeah. Yeah. But that lasted, unfortunately, for five years. Yeah, that's an eternity. That's double your life. Yeah, that's your life. It's a good time. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, wait a minute. Sorry. I'm really not going to math. But-- Yeah, 10. You had already spent half of your life in this situation. In this dark secret? Yeah. Because I'd never disclosed it. Can you remember the motivators of Not Declosing? Was it the threats had been made that someone would get hurt, or just your shame of being involved in some sense of responsibility for it all? I think it's all the above kind of thing. You know, I joke now, after 20 years of therapy and a PhD in psychology, that my father-- He also was from the Bronx originally, from Manhattan, actually. But, you know, when the tough side of Manhattan, my father would say things like when I was a teenager to give you a clue into his charisma. Mm-hmm. Like, soon I used to be kids up like you. Sure. This is so comforting. Yeah. Okay, Dad. We can talk about that in your parenting class. Yeah, he really wanted you to be alpha-month. Yeah. I don't know a lot about his childhood. My hunch is that it wasn't-- I mean, I know it wasn't a healthy one. His father would, like, burn cigarettes. My grandmother, I'm pretty sure with schizophrenia, I only remember just having a flashback. So when I was around, maybe nine or ten, my grandmother, to make money, lived in a house in upstate New York in Cooper's town, this little nowhereland. Some like nine years old. It's a spooky house. I mean, this house is not like a nice country house, like Spookville. And my grandmother used to take care of old people with mental illness to make money. So, like, Elsa would be sitting there rocking in the chair. Oh. Yeah. It's a house of horrors. Yeah. And my grandmother promised me a horse, and I'm like, okay, horse, horse, horse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's who glimps into my childhood. That's my father's side. My mother's side was a liquor store owner. And then, you know, my grandmother had terrible bipolar disorder and was treated with electric shock therapy. And my mother took her for that. The immediate silver lining of this is on paper no shot. You're going to be riddled with mental health issues. Yeah. And I hate the cycle. Yeah. And I'm not betting on you. Right. And so, like, that's-- You are betting on me now. Immediately. Now. Immediately, the silver lining is like, yeah, it doesn't necessarily matter what ingredients go into it. Well, that's, you know, as a psychologist who does research, part of me really doesn't like to do these predictive studies. Because if you would have, like, measured my social and emotional capacities, my mental health, my relationships, I had self-hatred, I had an eating disorder. I was lonely, depressed, everything. And you would say, okay, that kid-- I know the percentages. Yeah. 80% chance you're going to be an addict. Right. 55% chance of this. Educational achievement? Yeah. Is this number? Exactly. I'm not a big fan of that because I think that's too deterministic. Just to go back is the real critical element in my childhood was, basically, a magic one that happened, which was at an uncle. Marvin? Yeah. Who was a middle school teacher in the Cascale Mountains by day, by night. He was a band leader at the Concord Hotel, these famous Borscht-Builded Hotels. Well, fun. Did he play the clarinet? You just might-- He was trumpet player. Oh, trumpet player, sorry. Sorry. So was he dazzling? He was in show business in the same regard? Oh, he was-- You can't even picture this. Imagine, like, the Robin Williams character in Dead Poe's Society, singing La Bomba at a Jewish resort in the Cascale, who teaches social studies by day. Wow. Yeah, it's-- What's the Patrick Swaisy movie? Yeah. It's dirty dancing. It's dirty dancing with me. Yeah, the Dead Poe's Society. Exactly. So, he happened to be going to grad school near my hometown in Jersey, was staying with us one summer, and we're sitting in the backyard, and he just looks at me, like no one else had ever looked at me before. And he's like, "Hey, Mark, how you feeling? How's it going?" Yeah. There it goes. Everything comes out. I hate my life. I'm being abused. Oh, wow. All this happened. It was a pretty crazy moment. Do you think what made him a good candidate in some ways was simply also the knowledge that he was going to leave? Like, he might take your secret with him? Yeah. I don't think so. No, OK. Because I've now done research on these people. I call them the Uncle Marvin's in our world. And, I think, he had a number of key qualities. Number one, he was nonjudgmental. He was so curious about my life. He just asked all these great questions. He was warm. Now, my parents were kind of warm, but my mother would be triggered with it, like, you know, I could do that and she'd be triggered. Yeah. And my father's saying, yeah, my father was the same, like, you know, who do you think you're talking to? And I always say that with a father who just tells you to toughen up all the time in a mother who's going to have a breakdown no matter what you say, like, she, I be bullied and I'm getting bullied. Oh, my God. I can't handle it. I'm going to have a breakdown. I'm like, I'm the one having the breakdown. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're either too fragile to exist or you need to be this hyper masculine and bullet-proof figure. Exactly. The Uncle Marvin was different. He was warm. He was nonjudgmental. He listened, he was compassionate. I'm sharing with you, like, the results of 75 studies that I've done. I wrote this thing called permission to feel this term I kind of wrote about I decided like that was an anecdote I decided that my uncle gave me permission to feel and I was wondering how many people have an Uncle Marvin or an Aunt Maria or whoever someone in their lives that create the conditions for them to be open honest and truthful about their feelings and when my research shows across the world is only a third of us have someone like that in our life or in our past yeah the only way I was able to say out loud that it had happened my motivation was very much I'm defective like no one's gonna love me if they know this yeah to I'm gay where I grew up at the time I grew up that man I was gay I knew at the label of gay man which was ostracized from everyone in school so yeah the stakes of it felt really enormous and then I carried that for I guess probably ten years and then a girl in my senior year while talking at a Berkingston on the hood in the parking lot told me that she had been raped that summer by somebody it was just so available and honest it would have felt like a crime to not match her vulnerability right it would have felt really disingenuous so then I told her did you have an Uncle Marvin I would say she was right I think she's the person that got that out of me I don't know when it comes out if ever it comes out without her yeah well I think you were he was that's why she said it to him yeah yeah maybe I was you were that person for yeah I was warm and non-judgmental maybe she felt comfortable to tell me that and then I felt like I owed that back to her yeah what about for you did you have a Aunt Maria Uncle Marvin no I wouldn't say anyone in my family could hear anything super money's first generation Indian yeah yeah so the emotions are probably to be avoided emotions are to be yeah or they're scared like it's not that you can have emotions only yeah otherwise it feels like you're burdening them because they're worried it's kind of the same it's not like even still it's like that it's like okay I have to tell you something and then you see the stress on there they're trying they're trying to be there but they're like okay it's yeah and I'm like oh no now they're so stressed about this thing so no I don't think I did really have any I mean I did have friends I did have a lot you didn't have to be older yeah I didn't have capital T trauma to report yeah I mean everybody's got a story I think that what's critical about this going back to the research for a minute is that it does predict a lot about our lives and so I've done studies where it's like you have one you don't have one what's different about your personality was different about your mental health was different about your life satisfaction and I find huge differences yeah like 15% differences in people's purpose in many life can I have one thing which is kind of comical is like you would think abuse is so specific but at the core you and I have the same fear which is you were Indian did not want anyone to know because that would lead to exclusion I was secretly gay because I had been molested and was going to lead to exclusion like funny enough the driving forces still like I'm not going to be part of my community from the shame yeah yeah and I was gay or am gay yeah and so I was even when I was like a teenager and I was having some courage to talk about it my parents blamed it on my abuse it's like oh you know it's like you just think you're gay because you were abused I'm like well actually it's like a really different phenomenon yeah yeah yeah yeah and it implies that what you have is damn it exactly exactly yeah very complicated I mean I grew up in New Jersey with the only gay guys that I had access to in terms of like knowing what meant to be gay was like my mother's hairdresser you know it was like right you know flamboyant Teddy yeah and I'm like I'm not Teddy yeah there's two questions I have about your childhood one is there was somehow media attention that followed the revelation unfortunately this sounds terrible please what happened so it just so happens that my parents had a friend who is a psychiatrist who happened to be writing a book about pedophilia and I'm kind of the same today as I was when I was a kid I was precocious I got a lot of grit I'm a very like persevering kind of guy however it's like you know development matters yeah like when my parents friend said to my parents I'm going to be on television and I think Mark should join me to share his story oh god and my parents told me about it which they probably shouldn't have done to begin with I was like I gotta do this yeah I'm gonna protect other kids I'm gonna tell uh uh yeah and I did do it 12 yeah dumb dumb dumb I mean national television it was like a big station I forget what it was back then I think the WPIX New York and so here I am and of course now my secret which I had disclosed to my parents and to my neighborhood which became also a really weird place to live because the pedophile he got arrested but then returned home for a year before he went to prison something every day I'm driving this going to school like seeing this guy's house his kids were my friend it was very awkward and then it becomes a national television now I'm like a pariah you know just it was terrible no one realized like wait a minute people don't know how to deal with this at home nevertheless in the world here's 12 your little mark who's like going to like six grade yeah yeah oh forget it my friends parents would like don't play with mark now your reliability exactly I mean honestly it was horrific it led to a lot of bullying and eating disorder you had bulimia yeah and I think we have a pretty common understanding that that is generally a search for control yeah is that what it gave you I mean I was so distorted with my self perception I had body dysmorphia I would look in the mirror and just see something that wasn't there it was like a teenage kid next door who was very fit and I just lived an envy of that everything just messed with my brain well yeah also if everyone's the world is telling you you're bad or stay away from you and you're like but I'm trying to do the right this is so confusing for an adult it would be confusing identity wise let alone a kid yeah being applauded for your bravery I'm sure but then the results are like nobody wants trauma more double trauma yeah I just close it to get rid of the trauma now double traumatized so did uncle Marvin tell you to tell your parents oh yes that happened like my brother was there it became this like moment where my father took him back it was going to kill the man my mother called the police he got arrested immediately happened to be the one of our neighbors was a police officer who kind of helped facilitate all this but then we realized like there were a lot of kids in my block I was the only one who disclosed it but other kids then and then like his nephew lived in our block and he said oh my god not again like dude like you let your uncle who abuse you move to our block and like you've suppressed it but now like we're all victims of it that's not cool well again that becomes we just had an expert on who she's the head of the Johns Hopkins Center for studying this and I have lived with the guilt of like well I never told anyone I don't know if that dude went on to do that a bunch more and a little bit relieved that she told me like 70% of sexual abuse towards minors is from other minors who don't necessarily ever do it again yeah I was converted by that like well god I hope that was the situation because I have the guilt because here's was a teenager yeah yeah yeah I had that too actually so another neighbor you know also decided that that was another opportunity I tried to don't want to get this I don't know it's where I grew up with the air I grew up on but there was so much fucking perversion happening all around at all times it's still by the day or terrible yeah in terms of how much abuse there is some of us get through it yeah yeah yeah and I dedicate my career my life my health my wellness to my uncle because he gave me something to focus on yeah which was basically had to be open with my emotions and then had to regulate them right I'm surprised you went to Rutgers I might have wanted to get many many states away it was because it was state and cheap okay so you went there and you did undergrad there then undergrad there majored in psychology in Spanish I'm like one of those people that has a very non-traditional career path I taught martial arts what version it's called hop kudo so I got a 50 degree black belt and hop kudo became very very competitive and taught it for years and then I also saw skin care with my mother which I'm not sure why I just told that to it and then nutrition products and that was a whole that was a multi-level marketing company I imagine yeah I was like I'm gonna be a diamond yeah yeah of course and while you were studying for GRE your mom passed yes bomb the GRE's got rejected from graduate school the first year all of them nobody accepted me I'm sitting with my mother 23 in a diner in New Jersey she was not feeling well I will later learn that she had pancreatic cancer which is very accelerated yeah she died four months later yeah yeah I'm selling skin care I graduated college I am teaching karate I'm teaching aerobics I'm teaching all these things and trying to figure out who I am what I'm doing my life I had a girlfriend for many years and my mother just looks at me at this breakfast table and she's like your father and I have determined that you're a loser oh my god yeah tough love time oh yeah that's and I looked at it I said go fuck yourself (laughing) And I couldn't help it. Yeah. And she runs out of the diner, screaming and crying, literally having a total breakdown. She's driving the car around in circles in the parking lot. Oh my God. I run after my mother, no mom, it's gonna be okay. I promise you I'm gonna lose her. (grunting) It was a really big moment in my life. Of course, who do I call? - I'm Cole. - I'll come over. - All right. Round two, is that sitting down? - I'm not kidding though. Road trip to Fort Lauderdale, 'cause he had to be tired there. And actually, I really bonded for a second time with my uncle and we just started talking through things. And I like, I had to get out of my situation. It was eye-opening. It wasn't like the most emotionally intelligent way of motivating your kid. - Yeah, would not recommend. (laughing) - Exactly. You could have been done with a little bit more compassion. But anyway, it did force me to go to Florida to be with my uncle for a little bit. And that's when I decided to pull him out of retirement. And we would write a book together. I was like, 24. What do I know about writing books or curricula? My uncle is in his mid-60s retired. And just a little side story about this. So my uncle was this incredible person. Not only for me, but for his community for kids. But his program was so provocative in the 1970s and '80s that the parents forced him to retire. - This moment's where I walk around, you know, 5,000 schools use our program now. We've reached 10 million children across the world. And I think what I get accolades for, what I get to talk with you about is what got my uncle fired. - Yeah, yeah. - It's great. - So that's what he was pursuing was some kind of emotional education. - He realized it was a missing Lincoln education. And he was really ahead of his time in terms of this field called SCL, which wasn't there. 50 years ago now. And so I pull him out of retirement. We start writing this curriculum. And then I realized like, I have no credibility. - Right. - Like who's gonna buy a book? - You need to be anointed. - Yeah, I need to get a PhD. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And so I decided to apply for my PhD. I just said, oh, there's these researchers. One is at Yale, one is at New Hampshire. I wrote to them both. They both agreed to meet with me for lunch. The guy from Yale said to me, you're a great guy, but you're never gonna get in. - Uh-huh, yeah. And the guy from New Hampshire said, I'll give you early admission. - Yeah. - I guess I'll go on in New Hampshire. - Yeah. - That was also a shock. - That wasn't John Mayer that you moved with. - Yes. - It was. - Yeah. - Okay, so John Mayer became your supervisor. - Yeah. - And tell me a little bit about John Mayer and his contribution to this. And I think now would be a great time to define emotional intelligence. - Good idea. - So John Mayer, or Jack, as he goes by. - Do you think they've added the deed to his name on Wikipedia because of John Mayer, the musician? Did he always go by John D. Mayer, or is that-- - The academics always add that, but maybe. - Uh-huh. - Yeah. (laughing) - And then the other person is Peter Salave, who became the president of Yale. These two guys wrote this theory called emotional intelligence. That I was using to guide my curriculum. - What was novel about this term emotional intelligence? What were they doing? How were they approaching it that gave it validity? - Historically, I mean, you think about it. When I say the word emotional, what comes to mind? Quick. - You're only seeing a woman. - Yes. - It's very gendered. - feminine. - It's like loss of control. - Yeah. - Right. - Angry, sad. - Yeah, because Stereya. - Stereya, yeah. - Emotional, like you can't handle it. - Yeah. - Well, that's the opposite of emotional intelligence. - That's emotional stupidity. - Yeah, our emotional bankruptcy, or whatever. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Emotional intelligence is using your emotions wisely to achieve your goals. I mean, that's a broad definition. Now we get specific, and this is where my research has gone. So Peter and Jack wrote this theory. They proposed to set the skills. And then what I've been doing for the last 25, 30 years is kind of fine-tuning it all. - Really quick. So the traditional intelligence has metrics. Or we attempt to, right? We have IQ tests. We have different tests to assess the aptitude of your intellect. Did they propose a scale to evaluate? So how does that scale work? - So let me tell you the skills, and I'll tell you how they measured. - Okay. - So the first skill is about perceiving or recognizing emotions. So I'm looking at your facial expression right now. I'm like, is this going well? Is this not going well? It's self-awareness and social awareness. Obviously, coming from my background, I'm more vigilant than maybe other people would be. 'Cause I'm gonna get beat up here or my safe. And we're doing that subconsciously. From the moment we wake up, and we have a feeling in our bodies and our minds to the walking into the set, to going to a school, our brains are making predictions. - It's incredible. It's astounding we can do it. - Well, but a lot of us don't do it so well. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's like this underrepresented area of intelligence or intelligence that we don't give enough attention to. Hence the work that we do in schools to try to make this part of the curriculum. Which, by the way, if you wanna talk about that, is so much pushback right now in this? - Really? - Oh, really? - Political, it's been polarized. - Why, 'cause people say it's like a saw? - It's woke. - Yeah, it's woke. - Well, it is not woke. - It's not. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it seems to overlap with this endlessly progressive. Let's all talk about our feelings. No one's gotta be tough and just fucking show up and do the job. I get it. It's not offering me to lock into what they're feeling. - Yes. And the thing is that the way you set it is not what it is. - Correct. - It's so easy. - It's someone who's observed it in my children or in a net. It's not what it is. - I don't want kids. - No, it reduces for Jill. Funny enough. The fear is we're making all these kids so fragile that they can't even function. But yes, the opposite is true. This makes you incredibly resilient. - And the irony is the people who normally are saying it and saying it in that way are the people that have no emotional tools. - Yes. - Generally, because that is a fear, you know, scarier than anything else. - Yeah, I think they're scared in a way that they're not locked into what it's like to have emotional tools. - I think to be compassionate to those people, yeah, when they consider it being emotional, they have the sense that to do so would be to completely destroy them permanently and they'll be no coming back. So I feel that's a person who's caring. - They need tools. - Tremendous amount. Yeah. Again, I always say the dude in the pickup truck that's jacked up with the nut sack hanging out the back that flips me off. That is my hardest guy to have the compassion for. And it is the one that needs the most compassion. - It's funny you say that. So I'm giving a speech. I do these reunion speeches at the university all the time. There's hundreds of alumni. I love doing these speeches. I can just joke with all the graduates. And then I'm driving home. I'm literally on Route 95 and this massive truck drives by with a flag and it says, "Fuck feelings." (laughing) - You can't make it up. I'm like, is he? No, I was giving the speech 15. (laughing) Anyway. - Fuck feelings. - And it's like, really? - Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. - We are supported by all state. Checking all state first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun staring at your keys sitting right there on the seat four inches away and completely useless to you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah. Checking first is a good idea. So check all state first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds and for fast reliable help when you need it, add an all state roadside plan today. You're in good hands with all state. Potential savings vary insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability insurance provided by all state North American insurance company North Brook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by all state motor club incorporated in all state affiliate. (upbeat music) Here's what I find. And I want to go back to the skills in a second. But what I find is that people have a misunderstanding of what it is and that they're against something that it's not. So when I meet people who are against the work, I just say, well, what do you think it is? And then I say, well, let me show you with you what it is. How would you feel if your kids had good strategies to manage stress and anxiety? Definitely want that from my kid. How would you feel if your kid had a better vocabulary so he can describe things and write better? That's important. I said, well, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, first skill, by the way, the acronym is ruler. So recognize emotions. Paying attention to other people's emotions, face, body, voice, behavior. Paying attention to my own emotions. What's going on in my head? What's going on in my body? Boom. I'm so sorry, you're right. Just crossed my mind. We know that for us. (laughing) I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't bother me. (laughing) You can diagnose me as ADHD at the end of those events. I have a tooth. (laughing) We know that for autistic kids and adults, it is harder for them to read some of the cues that would let them know what the other person's emotions are. Do they have the same difficulty identifying their own? Oftentimes, yeah. Yeah, okay. So that's a struggle for autism. It is a struggle. Which probably causes some of the outbursts and stuff. It bottles up. We've worked with many schools that serve children on this spectrum and we've had great results. We just have to go slower, use more cues. What's interesting is that oftentimes interventions have this weird thing. Oh, we're going to make the kid less autistic. That's not our goal. Our goal is to help the child be who they are, but have slightly more skills in that space. There's also this very annoying thought, which is like anything shorter perfection is proof that it doesn't work. So even if you take the odds, autistic kid to one on the scale to three, their life experience is gonna be measurably better. - Completely, I live in the world of everybody's got to have the perfect everything. - All right, recognizing emotions. We're good with that one? - Yes. - All right, next one is understanding of emotions. So this is really trying to understand why we have feelings and where they come from and the differences between and among them. So I'm gonna give you a little test of emotional intelligence. What is the psychological difference between anger and disappointment? - What's the cycle? - Anger is outward and disappointment is inward. - Okay. - Well, that's really good. That's a good one. - It's good. - It's not correct. - I gotta go. - It's a B, sorry. - Fuck. - Yeah, but on that same train I would say, anger generally you assign responsibility something outside yourself and then the other one you're responsible for. Yeah, it's like a shame. - No shame a shame. - I guess it can come externally. - Yeah, you can be disappointed in others, I guess too. - Yeah, yeah. - Maybe it's, okay, I wanna, I wanna disappoint. - You wanna be perfect? - Oh, I do. - Yeah, we're okay. - I do. - In fact, ideally before the other one is perfect. - Yeah, exactly. - You should've done that because you were the viewer for so long. - There's like a sadness and disappointment. You let me down. - Mm-hmm. - Like an expectation, maybe expectation. - There you go. - There you go. - So disappointment comes from unmet expectations. Anger comes from perceived injustice. - Ah. - Seemed injustice, okay. - Like that's not fair. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. - Now, you have kids, obviously. - You say, yeah, yeah. - If I come home from school, I hate school. How am I feeling? - I was a frustrated, something frustrating. - How do you know? - I just think 'cause it's, yeah, it's all consuming. Anger is like a really- - You're a physical responsibility. - In developing condition. - And you have temporarily, yeah, or it's just like, you're a megalism fire, right? You're not running anything through the front a little bit. - We are assuming that from my behavior. - Yes. - This is where emotion tolerance comes in really handy. 'Cause we tend to overly diagnose emotion from behavior. When we observe in a behavior, we think we know how the person is feeling based on their behavior. - Got you. - And I could be feeling shame. I could be feeling sadness. But I'm a boy who is gay. I don't want anybody to know. And I'm feeling inferior or whatever. And I'm just gonna look tough. And I'm gonna try my best to look tough. And you're gonna be my dad. And you're gonna get triggered by my anger expression. And then it's gonna be a whole thing until you can lower your emotional temperature to be more present with me and help me lower mine and get to know the why and the understanding. You're not gonna know that it's actually someone spit on me on the bus and I hate myself. - Yeah. - And I'm afraid to go to school tomorrow. Whatever it is. Here's the research. We grossly overestimate our skills. - Yeah. - You know, I think I'm great at this. And it's like, well, let me give you some feedback. - Oh. - Yeah. - And so you think about how many people misperceive our facial expressions or body language. I get misperceived all the time. People always think like there's something wrong when they come near me. And I'm like, I'm actually pretty content. But I think because of being a scientist, I'm literally always thinking about stuff and I make weird facial expressions. So when I walk him, I'm not like walking like, "Hmmm." And I'm walking like, "Huh." And people are like, "What's wrong?" No, I'm just thinking about something. - Yeah. - You're like grinding through a thought a lot of times. - Yeah. - Well, even worse, I think is like, yeah, you have what you interpreted, which is often wrong. But then I think even worse than that is, you immediately run it through your narrative. So it's like your kid comes home frustrated. Your overarching fear for me is like, "Oh, my kids don't know how good they have it." They've grown up in abundance, and I'm so fearful they're not right. - They have no gratitude. - Yeah, they have no gratitude, do no understanding. So anytime they're unhappy, it sends the alarm bells that that other thing's happening. So my inclination is to figure out a time where like, "Oh, well, no, were you inconveniencing?" So you know, did you have to wait in a line? You know, my fear of what could go wrong is likely when I'm gonna attribute it all to ultimately. Like attribution error. - That's what it is, it's attribution errors. It's a misattribution of emotion. And so this skill of recognizing other people's emotions is tricky because A, we hide our emotions a lot. So understanding emotion is understanding the causes of emotion, the consequences, the differences. And I think the key here is, you know, going back to our stories of growing up as a gay guy, there's a lot of homophobia in our society. - Yeah, old cod, yeah. So it's only when we grow up. - Yeah, and even still right now. And so as a gay guy, I might be more triggered by homophobic jokes than you would be, or you would be. - Right. - You would be. - You might be more triggered by race stuff. - Oh, I am. Yeah, we get, we do get into it. We do get into it. - Yeah, I have the luxury of pretty much thinking, everything's funny 'cause I'm a very tall white straight. - Exactly. - You're good. - They rarely come for us in the jokes. - We've gotten in a lot of fights about like what's mean and what's not mean. - Yeah, what's mean and what's not mean. - And it's really interesting 'cause like for me, I'm like, that's mean. He's like, it's not mean. - But there you go. - Yeah, he's like, nobody's here to be upset about it. But for me, it's so deep being called something or made fun of in that way. - Even without your knowledge is the ultimate fear. Are they being nice to me here? But when they're by themselves, they're like, she's so brown. - Yeah, so I just like put myself in every, even if it's not a race joke, but it's just like something. I'm just like, no, you can't do that. - And I think what you're getting at here is the core of understanding. So going back to anger, perceived injustice. My husband is Latino, he's dark skinned. And so we've been in situations. We were in a restaurant in Connecticut and this is the best. Well, we're getting set to sit down. And the host says, where'd you get your tan? - Oh boy. - And he's like, my mother. (all laughing) - Oh my God. - He's dark. - Yeah. - He is not like a wasp who has a tan in Connecticut anyway. - He's the real deal. - He's what us whites are going for with that tan. - Yeah. - He's an immigrant. So his relationship to the American kind of thinking around race is different. Even though he's my husband, we've been get a 32 years long time. I cannot relate to what it feels like to be a man of his skin color walking around a store in Connecticut and being monitored. That doesn't happen to me. Just like, well, he can't really, 'cause he's also gay. He's got someone. - But what am I gonna say? I a little bit reject that. - Say more. - You cannot experience those exact details. But those human emotions, you can. - You're making a good point, which is that I can relate to the shared emotion. - You've been in a locker room with a bunch of straight dudes that somehow are speaking some language so organically and you're like, what the fuck? - Correct. So I can't relate to the experience, but I can relate to the emotion associated with the experience. - Which are unifying, which is beautiful. Humans have the same emotions. - And that's why it's so important to get at the emotion level. I can't talk about what's going on in your head when someone's monitoring you as a person of color. Just like you, as a straight guy, you have some background in this, but you're not gonna feel the same way I'm gonna feel, or have the same experience psychologically as I'm gonna have when I hear people making jokes about Jews or homophobic stuff. But we can have a shared emotional experience. And that's what emotional intelligence really at the understanding level is, is I need to have empathy and compassion and curiosity about what makes you feel the way you do, so I can be a better friend. - Yeah, totally. - Otherwise, I'm like, well, why would you feel that way? That's not emotional intelligence. So then there's the L, labeling emotions, getting super precise about our feelings. And we have a tool that we call the mood meter, which you may have seen, it's in schools. It's a two by two grid of colors to help people describe their feelings. Actually, quick side note is during the pandemic, the co-founder and CEO of Pinterest reached out to me, and it's like, I read your book, and I really would love to work with you on an app. And so we create an app called How We Feel. That is free forever. We have three million people using it now every month. - That's incredible. - And it is a tool to help build emotional self-awareness. And so it's fantastic, check it out. But the idea behind it is that it takes the science of emotion. So emotions have pleasantness associated with them, and they have energy or activation levels. And you cross these two things, and you get yellow, red, blue, and green. Yellow was high energy pleasant, like happy, excited, green, pleasant, but lower energy, like calm content. Blue, low energy, but unpleasant. Sad, disappointment lonely. And then the red is the upper left, which is high energy, unpleasant, anger or anxiety. And so we put 144 words to map that out with your definition so people can build their emotional self-awareness. And the key of labeling is just precision. And let's try one. Can we try another one? - Yeah. - Anxiety, stress, pressure, fear. What's the difference? - Anxiety is, I think, unique in that, or specific in that you are very fearful of the outcome of something, which is unknown. Stress to me can be much more predictive. I've had the same job for 35 years. I'm in one right now, like we always have to stockpile this time of year so we can have a vacation. It is what it is, but I already have had the experience of doing it, I know I'll get through it. So it's like, I don't have anxiety about it, but I have the stress of the workload. What were the other two? - Pressure? - Pressure and fear. - Pressure and fear. - I think there's no difference. - I want you to get your PhD. (laughs) - I thought that was-- - Oh, you don't have to trick question. - I did it, I did. I thought it was a trick question. - I did it, I thought it was a trick question. - I was. - I mean, that's what a lot of people say. They think I'm like Mr. Narotic Emotion Labeling Guy. - And the pressure to me is just stakes. It means it's something of value. It could be an indicator that you value this thing. That's why you feel the pressure of it. - Yeah, I don't think pressure's negative necessarily. - No. - It could be, but it doesn't have to be. - Okay, and then fear. - Fear to me is related to anxiety in that it's generally an outsized feeling about something that when you're in, you'll just walk through. There's some asymmetry to fear. - Let's get really, let's get to the-- - Let's get granular. - Yeah, that's the word. So anxiety is actually the word, emotion granularity. So anxiety is about uncertainty. Perceived uncertainty around the future. I get anxious when I can't make the prediction. What's gonna happen? Stress is having too many demands and none of resources. Can't do it all. - I'm fine, I. - Yeah. Pressure, something at stake, is the pen of honor behavior. So the pressure for me to get through this podcast. I'm not anxious about it necessarily. I'm not stressed. It's pressure. I'm gonna perform and fear is impending danger. Now, why does this matter? - I would say that most people are really prone to label those things interchangeably, and all four have much different solutions. - That's the key. - That for yourself, for your loved one, for your kids, for your colleague, really getting at that level of granularity will help you have a solution. So for example, if you're anxious about something, you're gonna ruminate likely. You can go for the walk, you can come back and ruminate. You can take your deep breaths. You can do your yoga. You do your downward dog and you'll still come back. Like, what's gonna happen? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So matching the emotion to the strategy is key. That's my new book called Dealing with Feeling, which is to help people make that connection. Because most people, even I'll give you an example, Yale, all these bright people. All my students said they were stressed. I was like, come on, stressed. I mean, I had empathy 'cause they were 78% of the time feeling that way. But at the same time, I didn't believe it was actually stressed. What do you think the number one emotion actually was? - Anxiety. - Yeah, that would be my guess. You're at this really interesting phase of your life where they're giving you four years of figure out exactly what you wanna do for the rest of your life. - The future's very uncertain. - Yeah, and how does one know if they've picked the right line? It's all about the future and did I pick right and am I rising to the occasion? - And the answer is none of the above. - Okay, great. - Okay, that was it. That was a trick. You finally got, yeah. - Oh, yeah. - You knew I was gonna slide a trick in. - Sorry. The answer is envy. - Envy was. - Their mislabeling stress for envy, because they're sitting in class, thinking, you study for a few hours and get better grades. You're fond of this famous. Your mother has connections with Wall Street. All they're doing is making social comparisons about physical appearance, about, you were the real valedictorian. And so I did this research with them, where I had them journal about all their feelings and came back and found that the real understanding of a motion showed up it was envy, not stress or pressure. And I think that's important, because what you would do to manage envy is way different than what you would do to manage anxiety or stress. So the core of my kind of newer work is really helping people make the connection between their emotional experience and the selection of the best strategy to regulate it. Crazily, what do you think the number one hope for emotion is? Like, how do you want to feel at school at the university? - What their answer would be? - I mean, would they be honest enough to say, I think everyone just wants to be a doer. - It's close. It's loved. - Yeah, love, let me get. - But that one really surprised me. The envy one didn't shock me because, you know, everything's about social comparison these days. But the love one was a little sad for me, especially on college campuses. So I did some more research about that. And here's a sad part, which is that, the number one reason was they said they felt manufactured. - They felt manufactured. - They felt like their parents, their school they went to, to get to be at a place like Yale, they just needed to like perform, like play this sport to this instrument, get this thing, get this thing, SAT scores, GPAs, travel to this country, and they felt like they didn't have an identity, which is unbelievable. - And it would be very easy to assume that you were loved because of those accomplishments. - Yeah. - As opposed to like, you're just intrinsically loved 'cause you're parents. - Yeah, they feel it's all extrinsic. - That's heartbreaking, but very predictable, for like these elites and goals. - Yeah, also don't you think that's everyone's answer in the whole world for different reasons? How do I want to feel in my marriage? Definitely loved. But how do I want to feel that work? I don't want to feel loved. That's too much for me. - And you want to feel respect to it. - I want to value to appreciate it. - But some people do want to feel loved at work. They want to do it. - Yeah. - That's not fine, I hope. - But if you're going to a college where 2.5 was the average admittance, no, that's not how your parents picked other things. They were like, Tony's so funny at a party. He's so good at talking to adults. He's a great athlete. Soon, in absence of great accomplishments, the things your parents will call out about you are probably more character driven. - Yeah. - Which feels more substantive or more intrinsic, which is like they'll say he's so nice to kids or he's so good with, you know, whereas if your kid just got a 4.0 and got a fucking 1800, that's what you're going to hear them tell the friends. - Well, hopefully you'd hear them say like, they're a hard worker, like something still intrinsic. - That's what you want. So going back to what we started talking about with Uncle Marvin and permission to feel, is that the challenge for most of my students is they don't feel they have the permission to feel. That's why they're dying to feel loved. - Yeah. - And most of them and most people in my research say they feel judged from the moment they came out of the womb. Like you're too fat, you're too skinny, you're too dark, you're too light, you're nose is too big and nose too short. Those pants don't fit you right. From the moment you come out, it's like judgment, judgment, judgey, judgey, judgey. That's why the number one characteristic that people are saying they're wanting and other people is non-judgmental. - Hmm, that makes sense. - So we got through a recognition, self-awareness, social awareness, understanding, why am I feeling this way, understanding how people feel, so then the understanding, the labeling, the expression, this is where the cultural differences really show up, where it's kind of knowing how and when to express emotion with different people across context and across cultures. My work is translated now to 33 languages. And so I've gone all over the world. And we have a center in Italy that does trainings in all throughout Tuscany and Italy. And I go there, "Marco, we've been 11, mm, mm." I'm like, "Oh, I love Italy." I go to Hong Kong, Markson, who bows to me. I go to Wall Street, I always joke about this because I gave this talk at a big hedge fund in New York City and the guy came out in his Versacee suit, the perfect Thai, perfect side comb. And he's like, "Hello, Dr. Brecken." You know, it's like, "I need a little testosterone "for this presentation." Yeah, yeah. We have this, whether it's downtown New York or whether it's in England or in Italy or in Hong Kong, there are differences and let's just acknowledge that. Yeah, yeah. People don't express emotions the same way, like in India. I've had a lot of Indian students in one of the things that I found interesting and I don't know if you can relate to this. In education in India, there's not necessarily a lot of asking you for your perspectives. There's a lot of stage on the stage. You are the learner, I am the knower and I do that. Interesting. And so when I have graduate students and I'm like, it's time for you to come up with a research project. I've done this already and they struggle for the first while of like, I have the autonomy to like. Right, they want to be told what to do. That's interesting, I could. Can you relate to that or no? Well, my mom grew up here so I have to take her out of it. I would say, I think my dad, I don't know, he really has a lot of opinions and is fine sharing them. But he's also pretty meticulous. He's an engineer, well, I'm just retired. So yes, he is also good at following instructions, very good at it. He's kind of an anomaly. I'll tell you my experience over the last 11 years being around Monica and the thing that I was completely wrong about and shattered my naive realism, which was. I'm like, your dad, I don't care where he's from. He would love for you to call him and say, I love you so much. And she's like, you really don't understand. That would just make him quite scared. Why is she sharing this? Something must be wrong. This is so out of the pattern of what's normal. It would just elicit fear. And I have tried to intervene. I like flew them secretly to a live show we did so they could watch her on stage. And I had all these expectations of how that would go. And at the end of the whole day, I had to go, yeah, man, you got to accept it's different. You want there to be this universal thread. That's nice. It's not fair. And that's okay. Totally. Yeah, yeah. It's nothing wrong. I'm not judging it. Yeah. Oh, I kept telling him. I was like, it doesn't mean they don't love me or I don't love them. Exactly. And we aren't confused. Right. We aren't like, oh, if they don't call me and tell me this, do they love me? We know. You don't. from the outside of my look like it's not there, but we know it's there, I don't know. It was very cultural. - I've been to all over Asia and what I've found is that in certain cultures, just cooking together is a symbol of love. That was the last thing that would happen in my household is like, let's chop, let's throw it over. - Right, right, right. - You know, again, the point of this is that how we express emotions does vary by personality. I'm an introvert, people think I'm outgoing 'cause I do a lot of public speaking. Even here, I'm traveling for some work here in LA. I'm not gonna go out, it's not my thing. I get drained from it. My brain is so occupied in what I do and what I think about that to unwind, I wanna go to a hot yoga class. - Yeah. - I wanna have a glass of wine with a friend. I don't wanna be that social. It's taken me years to really own that. And that's part of the work on emotional intelligence. Knowing my personality will help me find better strategies too. Again, expressing emotions, you can express them in art, you can express them in spoken word, you can express them through music. But we gotta get it out. Unexpressed emotions end up being like a dead. - Yeah. We have someone we love so much who has the most paralysis around the expressing and it's so painful to watch. I can feel the clamped tightness at the bottom. - Yeah, and it's heartbreaking. - It's really heartbreaking. - Yeah, and so that's part of being what I call an emotion ally is trying to figure out your way in to give them that opening. It is hard, but sometimes just doing nothing is something in terms of presence. By the way, going back to this kind of emotion ally thing, which is the Uncle Marvin in a psychology term, is that a lot of parents, a lot of people that work, their excuse is, I don't know how to do it. I don't wanna open this up because it's gonna open up and I'm not gonna be able to handle it. Or I'm afraid that I'm gonna look bad or things of that sort. And I say, let's go back to the characteristics. Non-judgmental listener, warmth, compassion. No one's asking you to solve their problems. No one's asking you to fix them. Nobody wants to be fixed. As a matter of fact, in my research, no one ever says that their Uncle Marvin or Aunt Maria was a fixer or an advice giver. And that's really important for people who are listening because there's an inhibition to showing up because you think you actually have to do something that's gonna change that other person's experience when that's not what they're actually looking for. Okay, so the last one is regulating. And to me, that's where your book, dealing with feeling really comes in quite this last component of rule or what. And that's the big one. I'll just share with you what happened for that. So here I am, it's the pandemic. So Orasio is the name of my husband. His mother's name is Irene. She was in Panama. And my colleague was getting married March 7th of 2020. Oh, boy. So we love this colleague of mine, Robin. And so we fly Irene up from Panama to come to the wedding. Gonna come for a couple of weeks, low and behold, March 13th. Every flight to Panama gets canceled. I think she was scheduled to go home on the 15th or 16th. So we're like, all right, whenever, you know, we'll get through this eight months later, eight months. But your mother-in-law? Yeah, she can get home. There was no flight. And so about three months in, she's 81. She was very upset. She had a dog and a parrot. We had a pretty bad deal with that. I was out of my mind busy, because everybody's freaking out. And, you know, masks and no masks and anxiety and fear. And Orasio is a filmmaker. He's a cinematographer. And so he's like out of work. Because nobody's making out on a movie set, you know, in March and April of 2020. So it gets really kind of ugly in my house. Everybody's tense. And one night my mother-in-law looks at me and she says, you know, are you really the director of the Center for Emotional Intelligence? 'Cause you've been being shitty. Yeah. And I'm like, you know, I love you, but not tonight. It's going down. We were just at each other's throats. And then, of course, seems like, go to bed. I went to bed thinking to myself, Mark. You're the director of the breaking Center for Emotional Intelligence. Like, how is it possible that you could not regulate? Like, how could you not apply your own stuff for 25 years? You've been teaching this, writing papers. And I realized I really was struggling. And I was not eating healthy. I was not exercising like I was. I was really negative. And obviously it was a pandemic. It was weird. But nevertheless, I thought I could apply my stuff to that moment. And I was really not doing well. And so I woke up the next morning. I said, I'm gonna start a study. I'm gonna study thousands of people around the country and find out what they're doing with their feelings. And how are they doing? And what I found was people were not doing well. Only 10% of people felt like they had good strategies. Most of people said they were drinking. They were eating. They were avoiding. They were being self-sabotors. They were scrolling on Instagram and social media. And it was really eye-opening for me that people were desperate for healthy strategies. And because I was so overwhelmed, and I'm an academic, and I had no place to go. I'm like, what I could do is I could lock myself in a room, do research, and write a book. And so that was my strategy. (upbeat music) - Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. (upbeat music) - Well, the book had straight up, a pretty frequent debate we have on here. - Okay. - I love how it starts. So it starts with you urge people reading to ask yourself this question. Look over all the times in your life that your emotions influence you to act one way or another. And then ask, did those actions help me? Or did they hurt me? I think so often people are trapped in whether they deserve to have those emotions or if they were unavoidable. And there's this sense that they're a given, and that's that, that you have some kind of autonomy over that. And the other thing you say in that same paragraph is the degree to which you will get what you want out of life is equal to how well or poorly you deal with your feelings. - I love this is a setup for the book, which is it's real simple. Do you like the outcome of when you or, I would say maybe, a victim or a passenger to your feelings? If so, keep going. If that's your conclusion at the end of it, then cool. You like being upset, it doesn't seem to bother you. The outcome's not bad, who gives a shit? - For you and other people, that's not just about you. - Okay, great, elaborate on that. - Well, like my father would be like, so this is the way I deal with my feelings. You're gonna have to get used to it. And like, okay, dad, let's talk about having a little bit of another mindset, other orientation. Like, this is a family, you blowing up, every night is not great. - Yeah, maybe great for you. You might be a piece of it. - You're fine with it, but what about everybody else? - And then a thing that I think is quite liberating and hopeful is you also right. And that same section, many of us believe that the way we respond to our emotions is an intrinsic part of ourselves, a fixed aspect of our personalities, which is simply not true. There's another thing I think people are like, yeah, fine, you don't mind that, but I do. - Yeah. - I like that, that feels liberating that you're not born. - I'm not born that way. - Yeah. - It's an important distinction between temperament and personality and emotional intelligence and emotion regulation. I, for example, going back, we're talking about our childhood traumas earlier. When I was in high school, I mean, really struggling with coming out of the bullying and identity. - Everyone in your school knew your emotion. I mean, that's an insane experience. - Exactly, pre-social media. I still can remember, actually, this is even later. This is when I met Horacio. I met him on a movie set. I was hired as a stunt coordinator. - Oh, for a fight sequence of a, okay. What movie was it? - It was a very, very early movie. It's an independent movie called "Ten Benny" with Adrian Brody. It's a first leading role. We made it to Sundance. This is 1996. Shot in New Jersey. I had a karate studio. I got hired. I was never a stunt coordinator, again, just so you know. But I got my love of my life. I see this exotic guy named Horacio. All being said, he's this gorgeous human being. I mean, he's just very good looking and he's got great genetics and I hate him for that, and we're two. I'm a Jersey boy. He was in the closet. And this exotic guy comes in with his black long hair and his perfect features. And he's like, can you stand in for Adrian Brody? I'm like, yes. I had done my little experimentation, but this is the first kind of thing. And I remember coming home that night 'cause I had moved back in with my dad after my mother had died. This is all around the same time. And just going into my room and crying for hours and saying, this is my life. How can I do this? How can I fall in love with this exotic thing and what's going to happen in my life? What am I going to be and what are people going to think of me? And I just was so distraught. Of course, Colin Comarvin again. The key there was that, I didn't realize there was something you could do with your feelings. I just thought you experienced these strong negative feelings. They pour through you. Maybe they'll dissipate over time, but there's nothing I could do in the moment. And that is so far from the truth. And I'll say even worse, when you're in those states, you're most convinced this feeling is permanent. Despite the fact that none of your other feelings are permanent when they're negative, you're like, well, this is the rest of my life. It's the rainy day. It's a thunderstorm. It's going to turn into a hurricane. It's not going to pass. No. What's our debate in this? I'm not following. Well, like you'll have the woman at the store and then you'll be mad at her and upset. at. And I'm like, first of all, why would you give that person that much control over your emotional state? >> I see. >> That's like a recurring thing. We have these debates where she's like, no, objectively people are terrible sometimes and you should feel that way as a result, right? Is that a feeling? >> No, I don't think I would ever say objectively people are terrible. I don't have that. I think there are people doing bad, not the lady in the store. But there are some people bad actors in the world doing things that hurt people. And I think it's okay to react to that, to feel that. >> That's correct. It's an injustice. The right thing to do is say, hey, not cool. You're being unkind. >> Do you let that take you on a ride? >> Well, my question. >> No, it's that, well, yes, let me just tell you what I'm thinking. Is that the principle that emotions are impermanent? Is that the rainy day is going to last forever? And that there'll be no more sunny days? And objectively speaking, that's not biologically possible. >> Yeah, and I don't have that. >> No, I don't know. >> I definitely have the like, every feeling is temporary. I don't operate like that. But we get sometimes in a debate where he's like, if you are upset by something, don't let that upset you. And it's like, that's upsetting. >> Well, don't let it have power over you. I think you're getting it. >> Well, a lot of things. Why am I upset? What did it trigger? If you're focused on that person, your life for the rest of your life will be out of your control. If that person has the power to dysregulate you, as opposed to that person triggers this fear in me that I have control over addressing and that when I get my arms around that fear, low and behold, that person who I said was objectively offensive, I'll magically discover isn't that offensive. I believe that to be very true. There are a lot of negative things you could say to me, but it requires that I carry my own insecurity about that to be affected. There's a lot of things being said about me that are probably objectively negative that have no impact on me whatsoever because they don't trigger any of my own fears. So my point is, these people are roadmaps to your work. >> I agree. At the same time, it depends how intimate you are. If it's your husband, your wife, your partner, your mom, your dad, your colleague, and you can't get out of that relationship, it does make it tougher. >> Sure. You need a lot more tools at your disposal. >> And if you don't do something about it, it can move into the realm of gaslighting. >> Sure. If you're going along with it. >> Yes. >> But if you're not. >> No, if you're not, it doesn't change the feeling. >> Right. That's the thing. >> Because the feeling is an accumulation of your whole life experience. It's not just that moment. >> It's almost assured it's not that moment. >> Exactly. >> That's kind of the point I like the thing is, this person gave you kind of a little gift. Why would this stranger with no impact on your life have the ability to alter your mood? That's a great clue as to what work we get to do. >> Correct. >> It is, but you are like in that moment, don't be offended. I'm allowed to be offended in the moment when someone says or does something that is offensive. I mean, this sort of does go back. I do think I spent a lot of my life having to like turn the other way when a lot of offensive things were happening. So I'm very acutely aware of I don't like that. I don't like that way it feels. >> But my question is, do you think that that's a given that you will always feel that way in response to that person or do you believe you might be able to change yourself and have a different experience of that person? That's my curiosity. >> I guess the truth is, I don't care to have a different opinion of the person, the stranger. Yes, if it's someone in my life and I have to live with them and understand them and know them, that requires some real, like we got to work things out. I got to figure out who I am in relation to, whatever. But if it's a stranger out of store who said something offensive or did something offensive, do I feel like I need to bypass? >> I wouldn't want you to deny your feeling. I'm not asking you to deny your feeling. My question is, do you think you might do some work that may result in you not even having the feeling in the face of that person? >> I don't think it's possible to not have the feeling. >> I can give you my own anecdote or this was the breakthrough of all breakthroughs to me. 2011 I'm directing a movie, maybe 2012. My mother has come in, she's doing craft service. It's a family affair, it's a small budget movie. There is a P.I. on the movie that has a terrible personality. Now, I had been anointed, the most important person on the set because I'm the director. I have no insecurities about my role whatsoever. I would come all night and I would be talking with my mom at the end of the day and she would be like, "Oh, I hate that guy. He's so condescending. He says blah, blah, blah, and he treats me like shit." I just had this moment. I was like, "Oh, yeah. He talks the same way to me, but I know it's on paper. I'm above him. I have the power." What I know about this person, he's not being condescending. He's a shitty personality. From that moment on, I, as a comedian, was like, "Oh, well, if I always felt that way, if I always felt secure, I don't think I'm going to deal with as many problems." I agree. But you're getting at a power dynamic and that's a critical thing. People with greater power have less to worry about. They have a luxury of not succumbing to this inferiority story. But if it's a racist boss, we got a bracket racism. Yes, but it's part of my whole history. I know, but racism, if she said something racist to you, I'm not asking you to not care about that. But if she says something that implies you're not worthy of being in the store, I think that's your thing. But it's a whole accumulation of having what do you think about this? You're not a marriage counselor. I was going to say, this is very true. And here's what you're going to say. Put on your orna hat. We do a fact checks here. So it's like, we come in here and we tell stories about what happened that weekend. So that's when that story comes up, right? That lady, I did not think about her. I wasn't for hours after like, God, that bitch. I forgot immediately. And then I was like, what did I do this weekend? Oh, I have a story. It does not rule my life. But it's an incident that does cause an emotion in the moment. But I just think it's fine. I don't think you're unique. I think what we're getting at here is this nuance, which let me try to say it my way, which is that the assumption that we make is that when we feel a strong unpleasant feeling in a moment is that we're going to have a strong, unhelpful, automatic, unhelpful response. And that's where I think you're connecting here, which is that noticing having like, I could be enraged. It doesn't mean I have to throw something. But we make an assumption that if I'm enraged, it means I'm out of control. Not true. I have lived with anxiety for 56 years. And I'm pretty freaking good at dealing with it. Most people think I'm the most even-keeled, calm person. I'm like, I'm a mess. But I'm very skillful. I have tons of strategies for different situations. Sometimes I'm like, hey, anxiety. Welcome. Good to see you today. Have a good day. Bye-bye. And there are other days when I have to work a lot harder at it. And there are moments in life. I was in a taxi coming from the airport the other day. And like, I was like, 500 miles an hour. I'm like, dude, you got to slow down. That's like, this is like, not safe. Yeah. And you got pissed. You got embarrassed. Yeah. And I said, you know, respectfully, I'm an anxious passenger. I'm not. But I wasn't that moment. And I just needed him to slow down. I didn't need to like scream at him. Like, if I had a friend of mine with me who I won't mention, but she would have been like, out of her mind-fighter flight. Yeah, about it. And again, the big question for these experiences is, how do we feel at the end? If you feel like crap because someone was not kind to you, you got to observe that and say, am I giving them too much power? Am I not giving them too much power? Do I need a better strategy? Am I ruminating? Am I not ruminating? And that's where I think the science of emotion regulation is so critical because no matter what, we have to have a belief system. This is kind of where the work began. Do you even believe that you can do it? Yeah. That's why I like the rejecting you intrinsically set with this reaction. Exactly. We're all learning mode here. But that's a mindset, which you talk a lot about. Like, so start with the mindset. Do you think you might feel different? Is that an option? Is it possible that you could learn helpful ways to deal with your feelings? No. I think a lot of people would just say no. Exactly. And that's what we call a fixed mindset. And that's going to impact your choice of strategies. It's going to impact your willing to learn new ones. So we've got to work on the mindset piece first. Am I keynote talks and my presentations? A lot of my work is giving people the science behind the mindsets. Oh, it's possible. Oh, there's no bad emotions. Oh, emotions are impermanent. I like the call to self-evaluate because again, you're not saying there is a threshold by which you're suffering from your reaction. It's just saying, when you look back, do you think you would add better outcomes by regulating differently? And do you want different outcomes? If it's no to the first and no to the second, then keep it moving. Keep going. Have a great life. Yeah. But if you want to emotionally regulate and learn to do that, by God, you have a system laid out. So I guess I want to first start by what is the actions of emotional regulation? The way I like to think about it is that emotion regulation is a set of goals and strategies. Simple. I can prevent it. I want an emotion. So let's say I thought I would be anxious coming here today. I got a 15 minute taxi ride to do some breathing exercises, give myself some positive self-talk, so that we'll When I get here, I'm already kind of present. A lot of people don't think about preventing unwanted emotions. They get into a situation, and I got to deal with it in the moment. Prevention is really important. Preventative and proactive is way better than reaction. And we should add, emotional regulation is not getting rid of emotions. No, never. That's not the goal. The goal is not to not experience emotions. I mean, that's not even possible. The goal might be to shift from one emotion to another, so if I'm feeling anxious about to go on stage, because I had this happen once, where I was in a place where I was not going to be welcome. It was actually 1,500 police officers. I was going to guess a rodeo, but I was going to be there. Yeah, exactly. I'd been around. For some reason, I wasn't really paying attention to what I was doing, and I got on stage, and they were introducing me, and I see 1,500 guys mostly with their guns. And then they're like, "Mark is here to talk for three hours about emotions." Oh, God. If you would have just watched the room, and I was like, "Okay, this is not going to go well." Mark, totally different present. You've got to figure this out. In the moment, you've got to play around. The moment I just felt terror, and then like, transfer the terror into inspiration, transfer the terror into humor. Hardness is energy, so I actually turned into a great talk. But that's in the moment. I'm reducing the anxiety and trying to move it to something else. But one thing that's interesting about emotion regulation is that we can intentionally initiate an emotion. So your kids are coming home, you notice this, and you're like, "I want to just do something playful. Let's just create an emotion that's very different from the one I'm seeing here right now." You can maintain an emotion. Ever had a good day? Oh, yeah. No, yeah. Tons. Any time you ever had a good day, but then there's someone who calls you or gets in your life that's trying to bring it down, the kind of dream-stealer type. So how do you bounce back? How do you like something like, "I want to prolong this feeling. I'm really in a good place. I'm going to take a little bit of a longer walk. I'm going to call someone else to tell the story, too, because I want to relish it." And then we can also kind of boost our enhanced emotions. So those are the goals. The strategies are what the whole book is about. And so the first strategy is shift your mindset. You can do this. You haven't learned it yet. It's possible. The second is you've got to have the language. You've got to know what you're feeling. So we've covered those a bit. The next one is the basics. You've got to have the skills to deactivate. You just have to be able to take that breath. And then people think breathing is overrated. And I see it feels patronizing. It does. People are convinced there's no way that tiny solution can solve this big problem. It only seems offensive. And if I say it in my office, it is offensive, because I'm always like, "I think we need to take a deep breath." And it was like, "That's a trigger." You know, obviously, we need to take two deep breaths. But the truth is that when our nervous system is activated, like giving that example, imagining I'm your kid, I hate school. My mother in that moment is activated. Her whole life is coming through her. I'm a terrible mother. My kid is being bullied. I don't know what to do about this. And so what do I do? I yell, scream, "Go to your room." I just said, "Liminate you." Yeah. Instead of, "Oh my gosh, my job is to deactivate." I got to take a step back. I got to take a deep breath. I got to figure out a way to help my kid deactivate so that we can actually have a conversation because it's impossible from a brain science perspective to have any communication when you're both in fight. You can't talk to someone's amygdala, basically. This would be a nice time to just, there's some physiological imperatives, right? As your cortisol goes up and your heart rate goes up, we can watch it enough MRI, you're shifting, think. It's just automatic. You're going to survive a mode. And so first thing you have to acknowledge, and I resisted this when my wife was pitching it to me because you know when your kids are acting and saying, "You want to in that moment teach them this lesson that would have prevented them from getting in this state," or whatever it is, and my wife was just relentless about going, "Hey, they can't hear anything you're saying to their back online." Like whatever impulse you have to do this in this moment is just a waste of your time because until they're calm, no progress is going to be made. And like that was hard for me to accept, and I have, and yeah, what a difference if you just show. Because you want your need to be met in that moment. Yes, because now I'm uncomfortable. Listen to me. Listen to me. And there's no listening. Yeah. I want to heal my discomfort. Or what my mom did was eliminate the discomfort, which was, go to your road to college. Thanks. Yeah. Get out of my face. There's too much going on in front of me, and I have no clue what to do about it. So it's fight or fight. Yeah. The other piece of that deactivation though is not just about lowering kind of the arousal. It's also about stealing the mind. I don't know about you, but we were talking about ADD, ADD, ADD earlier. I mean, that's a lot of people's challenge these days. But we're really trained to be distracted in our society. We're not trained to be still. I mean, how many people spend 10 minutes a day just doing a breath work or a mindfulness exercise to really just steal their minds? It's very few. How many people spend five hours? How many teenagers spend six to seven hours a day on their phones? 95 percent. 95 percent. Yeah, yeah. So once we get through the deactivation and the mindfulness piece where we can actually be present, then we have to also learn the cognitive strategies. To me, these are the master strategies. It's the self-talk. It's Mark. Take the hierarchy. Mark, you got this. Mark, you know this feeling is impermanent. It's that self-talk that works for you. And you have to cultivate your own. I can't tell you what it is. You got to kind of figure out the phrases that work for you, but it really works. And especially when you do it in this third person sense. So it's like, you say to you, "Mark, you got this." I'm showing empathy to myself, like I would to a best friend. And so by saying that, Mark, you got this. It's like literally giving advice to Mark as opposed to me in the moment who's read it and murdered that person or whatever is happening. There's a million of these techniques. My other favorite one for people who have trouble with interactions, like relationship stuff where someone might get aggressive or kind of be unsettling, it's called spatial distancing. This is one I use in my dad a lot. So my dad, he would get triggered and then he'd go on and on. You think this and you think that. And then I would just make him into a movie. And literally put him in a box. Put him in a box in a frame and like, wow. This is like a Nicholson character. Exactly. Totally. Be level but nevertheless, yeah. And the way I think about it is what it's doing is it allows you to observe and not absorb. That's a big difference. Yeah. Observe instead of absorb. Yeah. Yeah. That's great in partnerships. Another one that I use pretty much daily is temporal distancing. Like I'm the scientist. I use spreadsheet, some director of the center and Odacio is an artist. We have very little in common when it comes to planning, when it comes to details. And it's okay. That's why our house has great lighting. But I don't want to pay for the light. And so the joke is we have to listen. And I'm like, I have to take a moment. I'm like, Mark, A, can we afford it? Can we not afford it? B, how much does this matter to you? The house is going to look great no matter what because he's going to do a great job. Is this a massive credit card debt or is this something you can live with? And that's hard in relationships because we're so freaking controlling. I mean, at least I am. And even like stupid little things. And Mark, are you going to not sleep tonight because we bought this stupid little thing? No, you don't give a shit. Let it go. Walk down the other aisle. Wait in the car. So those cognitive strategies in those moments when you're like, that's a rip off. Yeah. Which is when I can go with that direction. This is really fun. Yeah. You know, you are a sucker, Mark, whatever. Does this really matter? Yeah. And a week from now, am I going to be still angry about this? Or am I going to forget about it? Yeah. Mostly I'm going to forget about it. Deathbed checks good at this moment. Am I going to care about my deathbed? I also think punting it is kind of good. Like, okay, well, if I still care about this next week, maybe I can bring it up. Then we have a conversation, but not when we're in the middle of buying it when we can return it. Exactly. How does co-regulation work? It's the next key thing, which I think is so important, which is that A, we overdo, especially in Western society, this like self-control, self-regulation, I can do this on my own. Why should you suffer by yourself? Because it's strong. Which is ridiculous. There's a phrase that I love, it's never worry alone. Like why? I'm not weak because I worry. Yeah. I'm worried for a reason, it's legitimate. And guess what? I could use someone sitting by my side. I could use a hug right now. I could use someone just saying, you want to go for a walk? That's co-regulation at the highest level. It's noticing and saying, I can be supportive to help this person manage their feelings. I'm not going to fix them. I'm not going to tell them what to do, but I'm going to make some offerings. And it's not coddling, which is what people sometimes think it is. It's not like, it's going to be okay. Don't worry about it. Mommy will take care of it. Daddy will do it for you. That's not co-regulation. That's unhealthy co-regulation. Co-regulation is, your kid is climbing a rock. If you're my mother, you're going to fall. That's creating fear. Healthy co-regulation is the kid is climbing the rock. The mother is a little nervous that the kid is going to fall because it's a little risky because they're tiny, but we're going to play this out. And I'm going to say, honey, that looks really steep. I believe you can do it. I just want to be super careful, so I'm going to come closer and be there for you. That way, if anything goes wrong, which I don't think it's going to, I'm there for you. I don't think it's going to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One is rescue or get down. The other is, I actually believe it. Even you, it's building the resilience in the kid, building the confidence in the kid, but providing that little bit of support. I mean, we're endlessly co-regulating. We're co-regulating right now with each other, whether we're conscious of it or not. Right. Right. You're saying something I'm responding. If I don't agree with you or you don't agree with me in that moment, you get a little feeling. You're like, "Whatever, it's only a podcast. Let it go." You know, it's like we want this to be inspiring and engaging for people I hope that they're going to learn something from it. So we're purposely telling stories that are aligned with that. Yes. Co-regulation and action. Yeah. I mean, I want everyone to get out of this. Yeah, you're going to have emotions. They're going to be strong. They're going to be uncomfortable. And there's a version where you do the best with that that you can. Exactly. That's what the goal is. And by the way, part of the co-regulation thing that's so important is that when you try to be the fixer or the advice giver or the solver, you're not actually helping the brain develop as a parent. I need to be uncomfortable. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm going to die. Right. But, you know, I can get up on the rock. You know, I can be a little exploratory. And I need to know that I can talk to myself in a way that says, "Mark, you can do this. I need to know that I'm going to fail. I need to know that it feels shitty when you fail. I need to learn what to say to someone who treats me in an unkind way. We have to build that muscle. And you don't build that muscle by learning nothing, by no one being there. And you don't build that muscle by cuddling. You don't build that muscle by controlling. You build it by co-regulating and scaffolding and building it. It's amazing how much vestigial shit we're still dealing with when early enlightened writers split the emotions and the intellect into two separate things. Yeah. The great question would be like, why don't we know any of this? Why has this never been taught? Why no one take this seriously? Because, oh, emotions are something to be ignored, avoided, and controlled. And intellect is something that will bring you everything. And so, why would we spend five minutes learning this thing that we're supposed to avoid in place of more math that could take us further? And it's kind of crazy that at best we're 50/50 analytical and emotional creatures. But in reality, we're like 85% emotion. Yeah. And we've just ignored it. Emotions drive everything. They drive our attention. Our learning. Our decisions. Our relationships. Our health. Our performance. Our creativity. There's no correctness here. And I want to say that loudly. There's no correct strategy. This is a game we play in our lives. But what you can say is if you've misidentified the emotion, you have no shot at combating that. You're chasing a different issue. It seems most logical to start with a true understanding of what you're feeling. Which is way more complicated than people give it credit. Self-awareness is a gift and most people don't have much of it. It's funny when I was writing. I knew a lot of it, but then I had to do research for a lot of it because I'm not an expert in everything. The pieces that I had I really studied so I could write about them were the pieces of a course that I procrastinated. And I would just get so overwhelmed and I would try to like mark your professor, work through it. And every time I try to do that, it got worse. Every time I just shut the computer and went to work out, I came back in flow states. I remember joking with this, you may not finish the book, but you're going to be in the best shape. And this is going to get one outcome. Could turn into a fitness book. Exactly. The point I'm making is that life is a roller coaster ride of emotions. I didn't know my mother was going to die when I was 24 years old at pancreatic cancer. I didn't know the same year I'd find the person who I was going to be with for my whole life. And I didn't know I was going to be a come up professor and I was going to run a center. I didn't know. I'd be traveling like all these things happen. And if we just observe that and say, okay, life is a roller coaster ride of emotions, I think I'd rather have more pleasant ones than unpleasant ones. Let me do some self evaluation of where I'm at in my life. And let me be a scientist about my strategies. Are they working for me? Are they working against me? Because by the way, all the unhealthy ones are okay too. Beijing's fine. A little bit. Eating a little bit of sugar, whatever. Distraction, fine. Avoidance works for me sometimes. Yeah, binge a TV show. But you know, when I used to be a fitness instructor and I'd see people on the treadmill for eight hours, I'm like, eesh, now you're like not dealing with the real feeling. Right. Right. So everything is a balance. My hope for people is that they learn the strategies and practice those strategies and then just take some time, you know, monthly to say, is my life working for me or against me? Yeah. And at some point in our lives, we can blame our childhoods and blame our parents and blame everything. Well, we can wake up and say, you know what, I'm going to be my own Uncle Marvin today. I'm going to look in the mirror and a little less judgment, going to be a little bit better to listen to myself and have some self compassion, going to be a little warmer to myself. And what the research shows is that we'll make a difference for you. You can cultivate Uncle Marvin's in yourself. And here's the more beautiful thing from my perspective. And I'll just share one last story, which is some giving a speech in a town in New York State. And I'm talking about my uncle, which I didn't normally do in my previous presentations. And this one guy looks at me and he's like, are you talking about Marvin, more of the six great social media from Monticello in New York? I said, I am. And he's like, Mark, your uncle was my uncle, Marvin, I said, what do you mean? He's like, he was my six great teacher 50 years ago. And I will never, ever forget the twinkle in his eyes, the way he smiled, the way he taught us about emotions and history and like, the guy just kept on talking. And I said, well, I got to finish my speech, but can I interview you afterwards? And he stayed and I talked with him about a half hour videotape to this interview with one of my uncle's own actual students. But I share that with you because of the end. He looked at me and he said, it's pretty darn clear, the impact that your uncle has had in your life. And I said, of course. And so he said, I'm just curious, Mark, for whom were you and Uncle Marvin? And it just hit me. I'm like, I like to do the research. Yeah. And I realized I was not showing up as that nonjudgmental listener for my significant other, for a lot of other people. And I made it a goal. And I share that because what the research shows is really interesting is that when we can show up for you, for you as that character, as an ally, we see the benefit in the other person. That's the co-regulation. I can see your life is improving as a result of my co-regulation. And by me watching you have a better life, it makes my life better. So it's a two-fer. And I think that's where it begins. I love that. The book is called Dealing with Feeling. Use your emotions to create the life you want. Dr. Mark Brackett, this has been so fun. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So much. I can talk about feelings forever. Feelings are important. We don't want to do that. We want to live with that. In the right time and place. There you go. Be well. Good luck with everything. I hope you have a great rest of your tour. Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks. Hello. Hi. I'm excited to be here today. We haven't recorded in a couple days. Uh-huh. Yeah. I missed you. I was out of town for a few days. We had like a five-day break. Yeah. Thursday or Tuesday. Is that five days? Thursday, five days. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's like a full Thanksgiving. Speaking of words. I really have the the tingles about it being here. I'm excited too. Yeah. Are you excited about your secret turkey? No. Saving it or preparing one? Preparing one. No, I'm not. You know, this is a big shortcoming of mine. I'm bad at gifts. I'm just bad. Like, I'll tell you, I think about it 30 minutes a day, which leads to depression. Yep. I spent 30 minutes thinking about this and I have nothing and I'm going to do it tomorrow because I-- I don't know how great it is. It's fantastic. It's a great thing. I'm not creative in this space. Sure. It's a shortcoming. To remind people if they don't know about secret turkey. Erica Molly's daughter in Benedict, which is great. And she invented it like three years ago. I think so. So she was like 12 or 13. The first year we were all together and she-- she was like, everyone picked a name out of a hatch. And this is a very-- what's the word to describe, Lily? Great sense of humor. She knows herself really well already. She's very self-assured. Yes. Like, during COVID and stuff, she would put on all these plays every time we would go on a big pod trip. She would-- Organize a play. Organize a play. She makes movies with the kids and she directs all of them and there's babies involved and she edits them all. Yeah. She's really good at that. So-- Can't wait to hire her in-- She can. OK. Yeah. But yeah, no. She's wonderful. Very, very special. She came to us-- whatever. And it was like pick a name out of the hat. And there were people named-- people's names. And then also we had to pick another thing that said, like, write a story or origami or something. Yes. And you had to match the two and do this by the end of the night. And I was annoyed. We all were. Yeah. We were all annoyed. Like, I mean, we have homework now. Yes. It was like, I just wanted to relax today and now we have to figure this out. And we have to because it's for a child. Right. Can't break her young dreams. Yep. And-- And we did it. And it was spectacular. It was the best thing we ever, ever did. It was so heartwarming. - And then the next year, which is great, is I had never received a text from Lily, and it just said, "Your secret turkey is blank." - Yeah. - And I didn't even know what that meant, but it was just an order, which was really fun. - Yeah, so for the past few years, we've received with some weeks in advance, our secret turkey, someone in our pod, and we have to make the gift. - Correct. - Or if you're Charlie, you say you made it, but you really hired an artist. - Exactly. - Which is very good. - Yeah, and then we go around, and we present our secret turkeys, and it's a really special thing to do. And right now, you're in that phase where you're stressed out about it, but you're gonna feel good once you accomplish it. - It'll be wonderful. It's the best part of Thanksgiving. - I haven't started mine, but I know what I'm doing. - Okay, great. I'm excited to see who you have, and I'm excited. - I really, well, everyone's a good person. (laughing) - I basically have a lot of, as much as excitement as I have, I also have a ton of holiday anxiety, 'cause it's also limited, a sweatshirt edition time. - Yeah. - So this is the time of the year where I've gotta let go, draw, and every time I enter it with the same anxiety, 'cause I can't draw very well. - It's not true. - Yeah, okay, thank you. Yesterday, I sat down with an idea. It was actually your idea. So I had to draw three different things. I drew the first thing, I was like, oh my god, this is great. I sent it to you. - Yeah, really good. - And then I tried to draw the next thing for hours. And I just couldn't, I'm like, why can't I draw that thing and not this thing? - Yeah, this is weird kind of. - Were you looking at an image? - Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. - Yeah. - It was just very frustrating, and I couldn't do it. And then I was like, and I can't bring in someone to do one of the three pictures as well as gotta be from me. Now, I did order a device this morning. I'll have you know that I think might help with this. But also, I think you are overthinking it. And this is because you actually are good at drawing. That your bar is much higher. The thing, I guess what can we say? - Yeah, I wanted to do a crow a mouse and chair. - Yeah, which is so cute. And then you were able to accomplish the mouse. - Yeah, in fact, regardless of that, I do want to marry Christmas. I'm gonna frame that for you for Christmas. - Oh, that's so sweet. - Yeah, yeah. The problem was the mouse is good enough that the crow look like a crayon drawing. Like they have to be somewhat comparable in detail. It's not like one can be a character and one can be photorealistic and then. - Yeah, because the mouse is photorealistic. It has like hairs and it's so detailed. - It is so detailed. And it's really, really good. But maybe you could dumb, give me that for Christmas. But then maybe you could do a version that's more crayon like the crow so that it matches, but. - So I ordered a lightboard today, an artist lightboard. - What's that? - So I trace the outside of a shape and then I do all the stuff. And the crow is just a big blob of black and it just, I couldn't even get the shape right and then to get into the feathers and there's so many patterns that go all these different ways or whatever. Now a lightboard emits bright light behind the images you're doing. So like I could put an image and trace it. Yeah, I guess it's a cheat. - No. - Anyways, lightboards are really popular and I realize a lot of people are using lightboards 'cause once I got on there, there's all these different options. And then the stuff I was looking at, I was like, oh yeah, I see that all the time. People are definitely using lightboards. - Oh my God. - Anyways, I ordered a pretty nice lightboard today. - You're trying to a real artist. - Yeah, maybe this will send me on some kind of a trajectory. - You could probably use your lightboard to make whatever your secret turkey gift. - True, that's a good point. Okay, great idea, earmarked. Okay, I have a few funny stories I wanna tell you. - Okay. - When I work out, there's a lot of mirrors in my gym. And there's a lot of backlight. And when I look in the mirror in my bathroom, there's zero backlight. It's all front light. And so what I see, and that's gonna be a ding-ding-ding, when I see what's so backlit, that's where I'm seeing like, oh my Jennifer, I have so much hair growing out of my trapezius, my deltoids, my back. And then I see like really long straight hairs coming out. My neck, which I was discussing. And while I'm working out, all I can do is focus on those. - Of course. - So what occurred to me, I'm gonna keep scissors in my gym now. - Oh wow, okay. - So that I can get the things I'm seeing. So yesterday, I fully was just going to work out. - Okay. - And I cut some hairs. Then I cut some more hairs. Then I, - Oh my god. - I give myself a full haircut when I was working out. But do you know what my hair is cut? From the last time you saw me, I got like a fresh cut right now. That's because I gave myself a full haircut in the gym. And I put a towel down and I would go over the mirror and I would just start cutting. And then I would walk outside and shake all the hair off. And I'm like, that's it. And I'll get back to your workout. - What? - Working out a little bit. Oh, I missed that spot this way. So I was in there working out for about an hour and 45 minutes. And I got a terrible workout. And I came out with a fresh haircut. - You haven't an usual marriage to your hair. - Uh-huh. - In that you sometimes have to like, change it immediately. Like, remember when you had to buy those shavers, you had to buy a razor when you were on vacation with Delta to shave your face in the parking lot. - Right, 'cause I just hit a maximum capacity. I was like, this thing is way too long. I got to get it off my face. I felt like claustrophobic for it. And then I also, when I'm depressed, I'll give myself a radical haircut. But that started in junior high. And it's kind of like a coping mechanism. So I'm like, we're gonna reset. There's a new me and I'm not. And also I tend to trim my hair. Kristen points us out all the time. If she sees me like, almost like five nights in a row doing some trimming in the mirror when I brush my teeth, she knows I have a lot of anxiety. So yes, I currently have a lot of anxiety and yes, so that you're right about that pattern. - Well, do you wanna talk about why you're depressed? - I have a lot of working anxiety. - Yeah, there's a lot of work anxiety right now. - Yeah. - BTS. - BTS, we're like, I'm some days at eight going like, to the family, mag, go to bed. (laughs) May just go to bed. - Now, if this was happening with a family member, what advice would you give them? - Well, it happens all the time, you know? - And what advice do you give? - Yeah. - Oh, so, you know, Kristen has depression. So she, hers won't necessarily be incident driven, right? It's not like she has a specific thing. She'll just have a wave of it. And yeah, she'll sleep a lot and there's really, there's nothing I can do or nor do I think I should do. I just go like, oh yeah, she's kind of in a slump. She's gonna sleep a lot for a while and then she's gonna come out of it. Now, earlier on, that used to scare me and I was like, is this gonna be forever and I've just gone through the cycle enough that now I just go like, all right, yeah. She's gonna organize for a couple of days, really, really intensely and then she's gonna sleep a lot for a few days and then it's gonna be over. - I guess I'm asking like, what would your recommendations be if there was a prolonged period of what you felt was not a great state? - Yeah, well, yeah, there's steps. One is like, I will gently and have like, I love the view, if you checked in with your psychiatrist lately. - Yeah, exactly. - You know, I'm not saying you need to do anything, just like, have you checked in with your psychiatrist? - Yeah. - So that'll be like one thing I can do. It's evolved 'cause I used to try to fix it 'cause that's my nature and I used to try to talk her out of it or tell her what's good in her life or, you know, gratitude lives. One meal still do and she likes this and it's not, it doesn't trigger feeling judged about being sad is, let's go for a walk or let's go for a hike. Like just encouraging, let's go, you know, move around. - Mm-hmm. - But I'm still moving around. I'm still doing all my workouts. - That's good. - Oh, another great update. So I got the toe thing looked at. - Yeah. - Guess what I'm doing tomorrow? I'm going to the dentist. - Wow. - First time in 10 years. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - That's great. - Yeah, guess what else I'm gonna do? - I'm gonna have my teeth whitening. - Can you get your ears cleaned? Oh, wow. - Yeah. What do you think about that? - I think that's great. - I've seen a lot of pictures of myself from olden days and I realized my teeth used to be so much whiter. - Oh. - I had, you know, I had four or five years of tobacco use. - Sure. - Yeah, coming up on a year without you. - Are you worried? - About it being too bright. - Oh, no, but that is a really funny episode of Friends. - Yeah, yeah. - No, but like it hurts. - Oh yeah, it hurts really bad. - I remember, 'cause I did it like 18 years ago. - Yeah. - And it was miserable. - Yeah. - But I think I'm going to, and they won't like this, but I'm, well, at least when I did it before, you did multiple sessions and I'm gonna go, I can handle just a little bit of lightning. I don't gotta go all the way and have the insane tooth pain. - Why? - Like I won't trade a, I'm willing to just do halfway. - Okay. - Feel like I wasted some money, but not, yeah, 'cause when I did the first time, it felt like ice picks in my teeth. - I know for sure. - Have you, you haven't had it done heavy. - No. - No need. - What a bitch. - I use that arm and hammer, you know? I don't, I keep telling you and you can do it. It's, it's at your disposal, but you just, you just don't. - Yeah, but also you never chewed tobacco and you're new to coffee. You're still only. - I drink a lot of red wine. - Yeah, that's problematic. God, I imagine what they would look like if you didn't drink so much red wine. - Do they not look good? [BLANK_AUDIO] Why? They're very enjoyable. It doesn't help that I work with you because I'm staring at like, is why does they get all the time? Natural. Now, you're right. You can go way too far. Yeah, you can. And you can tell. To me, you can tell, I guess this is the reverse veneers conversation. Yeah. I gotta be careful to find line. Yeah. We'll find you'll see Thursday. Okay. Great. I'm excited. Now, I just remember we were on camera. That's how I showed my teeth. And I remember something else. People will definitely say Monica, do you have a hickey? Oh, let me see. And do you? I don't. Oh. Do you see it, though? I do not. Oh, really? Will you point to where it's at? Well, I don't remember. Oh, on that side, a little bruise. Yeah, it's a bruise. How does that happen? I had a refresh of my Botox. Oh, okay. They're due your neck. Yeah, they do because I have a very strong neck. Uh-huh. And so they have to put some Botox in there. Okay. To make it less strong. Yes. What if you woke up in the morning and you went to lift your head up and you cornered and you came into work and your head was like this and you go, and you go, you're a get to the face. You're a full talks. Okay. So in this episode, Anna goes into the bathroom. And while she's in the bathroom, you're telling me about your potential cashmere sweater that you're going to make out of your back hair. Thank you. I guess you collected some more yesterday. No, I didn't. I didn't. But I see that a new crop is coming in. Did I already say, in case you missed that episode, basically I discovered I had all this back care from the backlighting of the gym. I was saying it out loud to my family. And Lincoln said, do you want me to shave your back, which I think is a dirty job. I would have never asked her to shave my back. That sounds well, first of all, like very vain on my, like I've got my kids grooming me now. But she offered and I shave her legs for her. Yeah. That's cute. And so what have you thought about combining? That's a great idea. Well, maybe two different sweaters. So I sat on the edge of the bathtub and she shaved my whole back. And then I collected it to throw it away. And I couldn't help but notice by George, this is the softest hair I've ever felt in my life. I didn't would have never thought my hair was a sock. So then Lincoln and I decided that I should start collecting it because it's cashmere. Sure. And that at some point, maybe when I'm 60 or 70, I'll have enough for a sweater. Yeah. Yes. And so. So you brought it. I brought it. And I keep it in this bag now. I don't know if that's how you spell a cashmere. And as you can see from the amount in it, it's going to take a long time. It's really, really going to take. But I really wanted you to feel it because I think anyone you tell us to is like, there's no way it's what you say it is, but you're very objective and you don't ever lie to benefit. You spelled it right. I did. I want you to take it out and touch it. And Rob, you're invited to, too, but be careful. You don't get any stuck to your fingers. You can't waste any. No, I don't have enough to spare. Yes. Yes. Definitely dry your fingers off. I know. Okay. Yeah. There's really not a lot to work with here. You can pull it all the way out. Oh, wow. And you want to go like between your fingers as if it's a cashmere sweater. Okay. It's okay. Everything's okay. I'm scared of dropping something. Really enjoy. Okay. Wow. Go ahead and touch it with your other fingers. Wow. It is really soft. Have you ever felt hair that soft? I haven't. Hold on. Let me. Yeah. Use both hands. Well, no. I want to do like a comparative. Now you could make a snowmobile suit in like a day. But not this hair's coarser. Right. Very different. Yeah. It's really soft. Hold on. What about arm hair? Yeah. Imagine that might be similar. I have a lot of arm hair. That's when they said I was a wooly man. I mean, where will one of them? Oh, wooly. Where would? Okay. It's really nice. Rob, do you want to grab a little? Rob, do you want it to keep your job? He doesn't want to. Okay. But it is starting to fall. Yeah. It's okay. Do you love it? It is soft. Rob, don't downplay. It's very soft. It's impressive. Yeah. I did it on purpose. Where is it? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Guys, guys, that's so hard to come by. That's like rare earth metals. Yes. Oh, my God. Get this back in here. This is so rare. And to remind people, this is my competitive product to Brad Pitt's God's true cashmere. My company is going to be my true cashmere. Oh, no, it should be called back's true cashmere. Oh, because it's almost your name and it's your back. Back's with an axe. Yes. Back's cashmere. Wow, guys, that's a great. How do you feel about me like just putting a tiny bit of my arm hair in? Oh, that would be great. I would be great. That's similar to pee, baby. Okay. I got a couple. You did. Okay. Great. Yeah. Just add it to the bag. Wow. It's pretty special, right? It like it feel, I feel like that came off a beat. I can't believe. Wait till I have a gallon size Ziploc bag. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I don't know if this is the best vessel vessel because there's little. I see little hairs all over there. I know. In the little ball they were in every time you touch it, it does lose a little bit of its quality. Thanks for being willing to touch that. I hope it delivers. I'm going to give it a touch too. Oh, God. I was just talking about in a way that now I'm wondering, is it as soft as I remember? It got smaller, which is a little concerned. Well, I didn't get smaller. Yeah, it's wow. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare, you know, we don't have much left after that little. That might be the last show until my camera. Wait, no, it's just now it's just more compacted, but you're going to need to compact it. I got to learn how to spin yarn too because that isn't that part of what I'll have to do. Yeah. Okay. So that's a fact because you said that cashmere comes from a goat's chin. Chin hairs. It does. It comes from the soft undercoat of cashmere goats. And they're like, they're up into bat. No, India, cashmere, India with a K. Okay. All right, cashmere. Well, we were in India. I did get myself some cashmere scarves from from cashmere. I presume they grow them elsewhere, but it's like champagne. Yep. Where you're only really drinking champagne if it comes from champagne brand. Speaking of things to consume, I just saw Anora in the movie theater. It's a movie to see in the movie theater. Currently out. It's so good. It is. What's it about? You can't tell. I don't really want to say too much. Good. I prefer that. Yeah. Is there anyone in it? I know. I don't think you probably know anyone in it, but you will. I think she's definitely going to get nominated and like my win and she is so good. And I mean, everyone's so good in it, but the main actress, Mickey Madison, she is a revelation. It's really something to see. It's so weird because it's like a, it's sad. Like there's like sad things that happen, but there's also like, there's, there's such comedy throughout. So tonally. And sometimes I don't like that when tones are sort of all over the place, but they nailed it. I like multiple tones and things. Sometimes I think it can feel forced. Yes. But it didn't hear. But like hit and run was like a car chase movie, but it was a relationship movie. And it was. But tonally, it was one. It had one tone. It was different genres were mixed. I think you can do multiple tones if you're the writer director. It is. It's Sean Baker. He did the Florida project and red rocket. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. I think if you're a writer director, like I would be thinking about this when I was doing hit and run because there's like, there's some broad comedy scenes with nudity and old people. Then there's some really violent scenes, but the unifying tone is it's everything I like. So it's bizarrely consistent, tonally, even though it's like everything I like in one movie. Right. It's such a good movie. I really highly recommend it. There's some good movies lately, Substance, Anora. Substance. Substance again. Anora. Poor things last year. Yeah. So woman of the hour, ding, ding, ding. Do you love it? Yeah. I mean, it's dark. It's dark. Yeah. But yes, so well done. It's very well made. She killed it. - The notion that she pitched herself hours before they had to have a director and then had six weeks of prep and then executed that is hugely impressive. - It really is, really is, very good job. - Good job, Hannah. - Okay, I have an update, a huge update. - Rings back. - My ring is back. - Yeah, but it's a little smaller now. - Yeah, so I got it soldered back and I think it's a mix of it being maybe a teeny bit smaller because of like, you know, they probably have to overlap at a tiny bit to solder it would be my guess, maybe not. But anyway, it might be a little bit smaller and I think my knuckle is permanently bigger now. - A bit bigger. - From the B. So I had to really shove this thing on. It took a while and while I was doing it, I was like, is this a, this is a, what am I doing? I'm setting myself up for another horrible situation. - Right. - But I kept going. - In AA, we say doing the same thing and expecting different results. - I know, they say that in AA, they also-- - They say it everywhere, I think, too. - There's a quote that Einstein says that's like, insanity is a definition. - The definition of insanity is-- - I'm not doing the same thing, I'm not right now. Anyway, I worked really hard to get this on. - Yeah. - It is never coming off. - Well, maybe I'll, you know, at any moment, you want me to take it off, we've gone down this road, so I can get it off in seconds. - I hope I die with it on. - Okay. I hope that's in 100 years, but yeah, that sounds fine. - At first when I put it back on, I had, I had so much fear that I made a huge mistake and that I should not have put it back on and that I'm jinxing. I, I, well-- - Oh my god, now it's like a triple jinx. - Yes, it was, it's a reverse back jinx because I really started to believe that the ring was the cause to a lot of bad stuff that's going on in the world and personally. - Yeah. - And you did try to tell me that it wasn't the case. You said I'm not that powerful. - Yeah. - Which was a nice thing to say, but I don't believe you, 'cause there's a lot, also one of my favorite restaurants clothes, like-- - Oh no. - Things started to really-- - Unravel. - She really started to unravel. - Yeah. - So I had to get it back on, but then as soon as I did, I thought, oh, maybe you're not supposed to go back. Maybe this is a lesson and not going back. - Right, not trying to go back to high school or recreate. - Recreate. - No, it's a cute ring. It looks great on your hand and you love it and it really symbolizes something beautiful and you should continue to love it and embrace it. You're your first big job and you've got a reward for yourself. - I did. - I love it. - Maybe, can you wear it on a different finger that's smaller? - I can't wear it anywhere again. - 'Cause you can't get it off. - Yeah. - Fuck. - Yeah, that makes me panic, but-- - I did make a joke that I think the bee that Stungney was of a different political party that I'm affiliated with. - Uh-huh. - Really got in there, you know? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Did some dirty work. - Sure. You know one of the scariest I've ever been is, I have since this moment been stung enough that I know I've outgrown my B.E.L.R.G. You know, infamously in second grade, my whole face disappeared and I almost stopped breathing. - Yeah. - You also almost stopped breathing 'cause he put a sheet on your face. - Yeah, but what washed cloth on my face? Similar to what we did at Bubba Bob. (laughing) And I carried an happy pen and whatnot. And then I got stung and then I went to the hospital and they just monitored me, whatever. I now wouldn't have this fear. But when I was in an archeology class and we were digging up in the Santa Monica Mountains at Stunt Ranch, a swarm of bees was migrating. - Ay. - And use all of a sudden heard it. And then crazy enough, our archeology teacher, he had been on a dig in South America and a student got killed, a graduate student, by getting attacked by a bee. So I only imagine what his PTSD is about all this. He calls it out. He's like, "Everyone's still," and you can hear like, and you start hearing it, hearing it, hearing it. And we just all sat there and it was like biblical. It was a cloud. When they went overhead, now mind you, they were still probably 60 feet above us. It's not like they were coming down. But there was a moment where it was a visible black cloud and the amount of noise they made was on par with one helicopter. - No way. - Please helicopter flies over. It was so loud in so many cotrillion of them. And I'm thinking I'm allergic to them still. And I remember just like, "Should I run? "Should I not run? Should I run?" Should I say, "Should I run?" And I just, I stayed and then they passed. Obviously, I didn't die. - Good thing you stayed. - Yeah. I think I want to caught their attention and then go on out there. - Yes, they got your teacher said specifically, don't move. I'm glad you listened. - Yeah, but that's interesting too, because part of the reason the student had died, was that everyone ran and he ran kind of up a hill and he got stuck. He couldn't climb any higher. - Oh my God. - Yeah, sorry, I brought that up. - That was a horrible story. - Yeah, it's not a good story. - It's very my girl. So anyway, so ring his back. We'll see how the world takes that in. TBD, one other thing I want to say really quick. So I almost did something bad. - Oh, good, I like bad stuff, tell me. - So I was at a restaurant the other day and I went to the bathroom, very rare for me. - Right, yeah. - I don't pay a lot. If the bathroom smells so good, also very rare to go to a public restroom and it smelled good. And when I was peeing, I saw there was this big candle lit. - Uh-huh. - It sounds like that's the cause of this delicious smell and I went and I was trying to see what the brand is and what it was and I couldn't find it. So I went back to my seat and I asked the server, what is the candle in the bathroom? I really like it. And he said, yeah, we get this a lot. It's specifically made for us. - I see right now, bizarre pattern. - No, I know how to sniff out limited a dish. - Yes, she do. And he said, oh yeah. - Where were you wanted to get the candle holders off the table? Remember that? - Oh, wait. - And I tried to find those, again, back to my bad gift giving and I tried to find those candle holders and I was unsuccessful. - Shoot, I don't even remember. - Okay, so many things you like at restaurants, it would be hard to. - When I walk through the world, I am like. - You're like Terminator, but instead of scanning for risks or threats. - Yes. - You're scanning for items that could be in your house. - That is how I operate. So he said it's limited with different words. He said it's limited a dish. Then a manager came over and I said, who is this about the candles? And she said, yeah. So we get a shipment every Monday. So we'll be getting more tomorrow. You have a big purse. I don't know if you want to go in there. - Steal it. - She said there's a lot in there. - So there's multiple in there. - Oh my God, she was giving you. - She was giving me permission, which is why this was tricky. - Can I just say one of my favorites, early, early SNL sketches was, I think Eddie Murphy or one of the black cast members went in white face and it was like a fake documentary, like a 60s documentary. So he experienced what it was like to be white and he goes into a shoe store and he tries on some shoes and he goes, oh yeah, these are great. And the guy goes, take 'em. (laughs) And he finds out that white people aren't even paying for anything you want to take. Just take 'em and everywhere he went it was like that. - Oh my God, that's hilarious. This is basically what happened to you. The owner's just like, just take it. - Yeah, wow. Not the owner of the manager, which is why I'm not gonna say the name of the place. So I don't want to get her in trouble. So I went in there with my bag, really excited. And I open the cabinet, there's a bunch of these candles. And so I take one and I put it in my purse. - The weirdest life. - I started washing my hands and I thought I can't do it. I can't do it. I took it out and I put it back. - Yeah. - And that's kind of good, Carmichael. - I don't know. I just gotta figure out how to pie 'em. - Or talk about 'em and I'll find the other big sandwich. - And now I can't say the place. So I've really put myself in a pickle. Now I went back to that place. - Like you be in bad thinking about what you're in the mood for to eat and then you go. And then in your calculations like, I don't even know what I want to eat, but I want to smell the candles. So I'm gonna go eat at that restaurant or I want to see the mugs. So I want to eat at that restaurant. Are you deciding to go to places for smells and the trinkets they have? - Okay, so twofold. Yes, in that I will pick locations based on ambiance - Right, right, right. - And vibe. But no, like I wouldn't have gone back to Budanoki just to see the mugs. 'Cause that's in fact taunting. - Yeah, okay, I got you. - I have to have it. Does that make sense? - Yeah, of course. - I wonder what that's about. I don't feel safe unless I have it. - Right. - Seeing from afar is lame. - Right. - Having it is un-lame. Write that down. - That's a quote. - That's a new quote. - Yep. Now, anyway, I was back there with some other friends and a friend offered to take my person and go get it. This person has not very many morals. - Right, I know who you're talking about. - No, you don't. - Okay. - I know who you think I'm talking about, and it's not him, it's not him. It's not Jess. - I would've thought Anna too. - It was Anna. (laughing) Well, you know who I hang out with, so that's part of it. - Yeah, but it's deeper than that. I know Cali didn't do it. - I know Rachel wasn't going to do that. I mean. - Cali! - It's not going to be Laura's, it's not going to be me. - Cali might do it. - She might, yeah, she a little bit. - She's a rascal there. Oh, I shouldn't say that. She would never do something like that. - Oh. - Someone Cali's co-workers list and I just found out which is exciting. - Oh, yeah, hi co-workers. (laughing) - So anyway, I said no again. - Yeah, great. - And I really hesitated because I thought, well, I'm not doing it. - It's the same thing. - You're going to get something you didn't pay for and you'll know it. - I know. - I'm saying the job. - I know. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But I do want it. - You're going to be able to figure out who makes this candle. - No, I'm going to be fine without it. - Oh, okay, that's also a good goal. - I'm going to be fine. I don't need it. What's it going to do for my life? Nothing. I mean, it is going to make my house more so nice. But. - But you already have a lot of candles. - I have a lot of candles. I have a lot of great candles. None smell like that, but that's okay. And I'll get through this. - You'd be stronger for it. - So that was my almost stealing. Maybe because I stole when I was young. And that's like, that was really bad. - Yeah. - And apparently my mom cried. Well, that's what my dad told me happened. - What had you stolen more than the cookies? - I stole the cookies and then I stole the boy's sand art. - And you're on cried over that? - Well, my dad told me that, but I think he was lying. - I don't think she did. - Yeah. - I think he was trying to guilt me. - Yeah, and it worked. - I know. - I don't steal anymore. It was a good, what are you gonna say? - Wow, that's good parents actually. - It is, it's great parents. Your mother was in control for a week. - When she seems fine. At night she's been crying in bed. - I don't steal. - Next to me. - Well, you tried to steal a parking meter. - Well, I did steal a parking meter. - So I don't think you could-- - I did try to rob a 7-11. - Yeah, what I'm talking about. I had a compartment in my head when I was younger in an alcoholic. Oh, I'm gonna say this one thing. We're going too long and our new goal's gonna go so long. - I know. I know. - But I was just in Kauai, that my 40-hour trip was Kauai. I have not been there in 20 years since my last week of drinking. - Oh, wow. - Yeah. - What did it feel? - It felt great. Like I saw the guard rail me in the dude smashed in due on the way to buy ice. I saw the crazy hotel, Dean and I were at that I went jogging after being awake for three days. Like I saw all the stuff and I thought, wow, we're back here. - Yeah. - Look how different everything is. - You should be so proud, though. - You made the right turn when you left here. It was a bizarre way to reflect on what was my life like and my mental health 20 years ago when I was there and what is it like today? - Yeah. - And such an obvious decision was made and I'm now there with a family and I'm healthy. And yeah, it was, it was rare. - That's wonderful. - Yeah, I liked it a lot. - I loved that. - I kind of thought I would never go back there. - Yeah. - I kind of invited to go there. So I don't even know I would have ever picked it. 'Cause it's, yeah, it's the my last weekend as a gnarly week, but it was very fun to be there and just go like, oh, man, are we Dutchable? We would've stayed the course. A, we wouldn't be alive right now and B, we would just not have the life we have. So it was, yeah, it was cool. - That's lovely. Yeah, great time to reflect. Well, did that do anything for-- - My work anxiety? - Yeah. - Yeah, my time there was a beautiful, I did, I left all of my worries in Los Angeles and did have a totally carefree, wonderful 40 hours. - Is that what you're asking? - Well, sort of, I guess like the reflection, like you gave me to really, really have a physical reminder of where you were and where you are. - Yeah. - And understanding, like the stuff that's happening is really, really frustrating and not really not fun. - But in the plan scheme, like look where you are, what you're doing. - Yeah, I'm aspiring to be there, but I'd be lying if I said I could. I mean, one of the tools I'm employing is like, everything's fine, everything's fine. Everything at this point could get destroyed and I'd still be very fine. - Yeah. - So I am cycling through that reminder when I'm doing the other things to help and then I just get caught in the loop. - Yeah. - You know, my sense of injustice is going crazy. And so I, yeah, and then I get stuck in it. And then I say you're stuck in it, but it has no effect on being stuck in it. - Sure, I know. - Have you considered reaching back out to your therapist? - I didn't consider doing it, but I did have a moment of like, why aren't you talking to your therapist? This would be a time. - It's a good time. - Yeah. It did kind of cross my mind, maybe. - It's also easy to forget when you've been out of it for a little bit how helpful it is. - Yeah, but yes, I agree with you and that's probably a good idea. - Yeah, I don't, I think it might be a good idea. I had therapy and it was helpful. - Oh, good. - Okay, so our 90% of Asians lactose intolerant, 70 to 100% of people in East Asia are lactose intolerant. - Yeah. - So yeah, 90's right in there. - You know what would make you proud of your girl Lincoln? - She had to name all 32 countries on a map of Asia for a test and she got 32 out of 32. - Wow, that's incredible. - She even hit me with the name of a country. I didn't even know. She knows now. - That's awesome. - Yeah, I thought she was making one up or get on my Google map. - Okay, when did Smithsonian Target do the collab 2011? - Mm-hmm. - Okay, the seahorse situation where you said they're made of dust. Those are sea monkeys. - Those are sea monkeys and a lot of commenters pointed that out. - Yeah, they're sea monkeys and sea monkeys is a colloquial term for a shrimp brine. - Scrims. - And it's really just power. - And it's power. - Yep, and it's very disgusting. - Yeah. - Oh, and then I'm gonna play one clip before we end here. - Okay, I love a clip. - Those memorable moments from the Newlywood game. - What's the old urban legend? Where's the strangest, most unusual place you ever made? Whoopee? That was, that was, didn't make it on the air. - But she actually said that. - Well, she said worse. All of a sudden, the urban legend that went out there that said, I said, where's the strangest, most unusual place you've ever made, whoopee? And the lady you were supposed to have said, well, that would be in the butt, Bob. And that never happened. That never happened. About five years ago, I got a coffin game show network and they said, you better come down here and take a look at this. So I go down and take a look at it. And there is this little Caucasian lady from Pennsylvania. Right? Her name is Olga. And I said, where's the strangest, most unusual place you've ever made whoopee? And she says in the ass. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. It has to be a location. Oh, oh, sorry. So that, that didn't make it on the air. We cuckooed that one out. - Also, what's his name? Bob Youbanks. - Bob Youbanks. Bob, if the person in your story's name is Olga, you don't have to say Caucasian. We could definitely contemplate that. - I actually, you know what's funny? - I almost said, I like that he said that. - Because people would say black. - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, that's fair. Let's see, other one. There's another really famous funny one, which is karate. - Yeah, karate class. - Karate class. What's the setup for that? Is it condiments? - I think it is condiment. - Oh, is it? - What's your favorite condiment? Karate class? What your husband's favorite condiment? Karate class. - I don't think. - I think. - Here, I can email you. - What is your husband's favorite condiment? - Oh, I would say his full table upstairs, definitely. - That's interesting. His whole table upstairs. - On it? - All right, I know what I heard that way. I was wondering if it's not that karate school. - Karate school. (laughing) - What is your husband's favorite condiment? - Karate school. (laughing) - No one knew what condiment was. - No. I would have thought they were to confuse it with condom, but they confused it with like recreation. - Right. Interesting. - Very. - All right, so that's it. We love Anna Kendrick. We were so delighted she came back to us. - We love her, love her, love her. - And oh, do you want to update? She came to Halloween, yeah, yeah. So on the episode, she said she felt bad that she ghosted and then we invited her to Halloween. And she was very, very brave. She came all by herself and joined our family outfit. - She did. - She was Claire Corningstone or whatever. - Veronica Corningstone from Channel Four News. - Yeah. - Thank her man. Good job, Anna. - Yeah, that's called growth. - Growth. - We love it. We love to see it. All right. - All right, love you. (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]