336. Marathon Fueling and Training, The Best Training Shoe of All Time, and New Heat Science!

- Woohoo. - Welcome to the Some Work All Play podcast. We are so happy to be with you today. Happy Tuesday, it's Tuesday, just David Voiced because Megan has a little bit of a rabbit in her throat right now. - We got Larry and Gytus going on over here. I think I'm good. I just can't do happy Tuesday. - Oh, I get it. The woohoo is also quite challenging for you, but you got through that, which is amazing. - We should release at the end of the podcast, my happy Tuesday, which sounded, it would have taken people by such surprise. - Hey, your voice is so endearing right now. It's beautiful. - What does it sound like? - I went to the zoo this weekend. - Yeah. - And I hate to disarray an animal in this way, but what zoo animal do I sound like right now? - It kind of sounded like when we saw the zebra pissing. - Yeah, yeah. - It sounds like the stream coming out of the zebra's, you know, your rethra. - The zebra was pissing pure vitamin B12. - Yeah. - I feel like it really took a hemoplex vitamin or something. That was some electric pee. - It was quite yellow. Both Megan and I wanted to become zebra coaches at that point, or zebra dieticians, and say, are you zebra? We need to be a little bit better with our hydration status. It wasn't so good, but yeah, our kids got second. - We're still showing up a little bit late, but we're gonna do this thing. It's gonna be awesome. - Yeah, it's amazing actually. I feel like toddlers give you the grace to show up whatever life throw is at you. - Yeah. - I feel like we've been on a virus every other week, kind of trend, and you gotta still keep living life. - I'm not gonna get this one though. I'm totally in the clear. Megan, I can just do this podcast solo. You just, you just apparently come in like DJ College and just say, yeah, we the best. Straight little John this stuff. - I actually woke up at 2 AM last night, and I was like, oh no, David may have to do the podcast solo, which I'm excited about, like you do Patreon episode solo and you're green at it. But my fear was that you're gonna be so much better than the episodes that we do together, that I was like, people weren't gonna want me to come back. - Yeah, no one ever won Steve at solo episodes. Everyone is always disappointed on Patreon, but I do try to do my best. But yeah, you know, things are going up. Not only am I just totally clear of this sickness, maybe I'm a god when it comes to that. Also, back to running, full clearance, had my follow up X-ray at 12 weeks post surgery, and the cortical bone in my fifth metatarsal was some of the thickest they'd ever seen, which is really cool, like I, you know, part of this process, I just thought, well, I guess I don't heal that much anymore, and now I'm like, oh, you know, maybe I'm back. Maybe I have it in me. - Your cortical bone is so thick. - Yeah, thickness accomplished over here. - How did you pull that off in 12 weeks? I feel like it's thicker than the Vomero premiums at this point. - Oh yeah. - You're not even world athletics approved. - You're gonna race with that foot. So it's really cool to see like, what do you think you attribute to that level of thickness? - Just time, you know, so I think injuries take a certain amount of time. The studies on this particular injury in the internal fixation surgery found that around 12 weeks is when you get union of the bone. And certainly enough, around 12 weeks is when I started to feel confident. And the confidence kind of came all at once, and so now I'm right where I need to be, and guess what? Fitness is also in a good spot because these elliptical workouts have transitioned incredibly to running, and so maybe the big benefit of this from a coaching perspective is it has helped me refine how I think about elliptical training. And I think elliptical training could be that next almost upheld treadmill style intervention that is used in a strategic way with athletes who enjoy it to help them level up their lactate shuttle and compress their training zones. Because I'm coming back after, you know, 12 weeks off so far beyond what I'd expect. - It's been super inspiring to me because I was given six to eight weeks for this knee boop. I have this grade three knee boop. And initially it was really helpful to be like, "Oh, I'm gonna be so back in six weeks." And it made the timeline feel shorter, but now that I'm around like four and a half, five weeks, like, you know, I really get think it's gonna take the full eight weeks. But seeing your transition from the elliptical into running is so inspiring to me because it's like if I can keep grinding away on this machine that hopefully it will translate in a similar way, like this morning, but at 10 miles, did you make it to the Wonderland bathrooms? - No, they changed the trails, so I couldn't quite get to Wonderland in my 12 miles, which means I didn't get to go get a snorrow virus from putting my mouth over the water fountain there. Actually, I don't care about you going to the Wonderland bathrooms anymore. It used to be this place that I was like, "Oh, David's gonna go lay down in the Wonderland bathrooms and pick up every virus known to man." But you know what, we're the virus dealers now. We have the upper hand. We are the ones bringing the viruses to the Wonderland bathrooms. You know what? It's okay. - Perfect, I'll go tongue first, next time then. Okay, read the best episode today, a quick roadmap. We're gonna be talking about marathon fueling and training featuring all of the info on Andreas Elmgren, extremely high carb for the Iron Man record. - Admitting I was deeply wrong when it comes to marathon qualifying times. Also relevant because they just announced the Olympic standards this morning as we're recording. So maybe I'll be wrong on those too, but they seem fucked up. - Oh my gosh, this morning we were doing some high level math and you were doing some lowering too. You're like, "I need to read between the lines on these Olympic marathon standards." - Yeah, it is bonkers. The Olympic standards are just announced at 205 and 222 for women. So maybe we'll talk about that when we get there. Then the best training shoe of all time, there's a shoe that we are absolutely obsessed with. Then heat and humidity cross acclimation, a new study, a huge upcoming sale on Wahoo treadmills and questions on low carb awareness, racing versus training, cross training and lots more. - I hope we get to these questions this week because we have some good ones. I'm also excited to talk about the ways in which you've been wrong. - You always love that. - No, I like talking about the ways in which I've been wrong too. And I feel like this is a good one, is you had the prediction that by lowering the OTQ standards that we would see fewer women on the starting line, was because the standards are just starting to get really fast. And you know what, we have a lot of women qualifying. - Way more, way more than in the past. And so yeah, I was wrong about that. And it's interesting to think about other ways that might be wrong. That's basically the history of the podcast. But before we get to the marathon fueling, a quick promo for the feed, go to dot the dot com slash swap SWAP, first order 40% off. Black Friday deals have already started there. Just go, check them out. It is bonkers right now. - It is wild to already be in the world of Black Friday deals. - I feel like it's how like Christmas starts encouraging in stores around like October and November timeframe. But it's a great thing. It's like, now I got Black Friday deals way before Black Friday. And that's a nice thing. - This is actually Black Friday, 2028. We've already done 2026 and 2027. We're just getting ahead of it. So the things I want to talk about first scratch hydration, just so good, everybody should have scratch in your cabinet that you can just throw into your bottles. A little bit goes a long way because it helps you absorb the water too. So like our road marathoners will almost always have a little bit of scratch in their bottles. It's used at that level, it is so good. Next up, precision tabs. So you can do 500 to 1000. I wouldn't do 1500 unless you have specific reason to. But these are so good. And my big theory is that part of the sodium content in these tabs comes from sodium bicarbonate. And yes, I understand it is not a clinically effective dose to get the buffering ability and all of that. But I swear that little low dose does something special for me. - I love your levels of belief on this because it is so low that I wouldn't even classify it as microdosing sodium bicarbonate. It totally classifies as microdosing micro can go all the way down. Just like we have on the infinite scale, like the scale of the universe, on the small scale, you can have a plank length of precision of sodium bicarbonate. And that counts as micro on some level. - I love your level of belief, you're like Megan. I think this is why I've been feeling good. But that being said, they are delicious. And I love drinking them recreational. Like I pop recreationally. I pop one of these in a wine glass and it's tasty. And it's nice to be able to have that option. - So so good. Okay, so let's go on to a little discussion on marathon fueling and then get into training. So this all stems from Andre's ongoing. And we're gonna talk a little bit about Jess McLean and some others that we know about. But he publishes all of his training data. So he just won the New York City marathon. And it is so strange to have someone at this level being like total no secrets as far as we can tell. Saying everything they're doing, when it comes to fueling, training, everything else, even published a book in Swedish, which I have not read yet, but I should, I should learn Swedish specifically so I can read a book. - I appreciate it actually. I'm in school because he's been taking much more of a part in his own coaching. So he's not a long-term coach, but for him, he has this mechanical engineering background and bringing in some of the coaching theory from his own ideas. Like he had this quote that his coach is really just there to challenge him and to challenge his thoughts on training. But I wonder if that's part of why he's so intent on sharing it. Is that like, because he's taking such ownership over his training, he's proud of it. He's like, I wanna be able to share this to the masses. And I kind of, I love that. - Yeah, it's so cool. And so he did 120 grams of carbs per hour, which is around what we're often seeing and now often seen for women too, which is really fascinating. And he did this with a lot of testing involved, where they had him in a lab, they saw what his oxidation rates were. And most significantly, his oxidation rates and his intake actually varied, which I think is a really important clue to look at. - Actually, his oxidation rates, when they looked at it across the duration of a long run, peaked at 96 grams an hour, yet he's still taking in around 120. - And sometimes going far above in training. - And that goes to show it's like, you know, there's actually probably something that we have to learn here in terms of like, is the brain utilizing the rest of his carbs? What is happening to the body? Also, this may not apply because he's running a 2L or marathon. But if you start stacking that difference in oxidation across races that are much longer, it's like, what happens there? - Yeah, I don't know. I challenge that in general, because there's this burgeoning thought process, especially amongst people that get athletes in the lab a lot, that say, all right, well, oxidation rates are relevant. I'm starting to think they aren't that relevant at all, that really all it's about is any oxidation rate, much like a lactate test is a specific snapshot of where your physiology is that day. But unlike lactate tests, at least it's measuring something. I think the oxidation rate might actually not be measuring anything that relevant, or maybe it's a lab error or something, because everybody is going above their oxidation rate pretty darn substantially. - Well, I think maybe not that it's a lab error, but we just don't know. Like, I think we need to understand more about where these like, you know, where the difference in carbs is going, and I think that the more that we have data on that, the more we're gonna learn. - It's going to championship. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's going to believe. - I actually told an athlete yesterday, they wanted to, there is a complicated race where they had to carry a lot of gels. And so they were gonna dial down to 60 grams an hour of gels. And I was like, you know, I was like blank this athlete. I told them I was like, you know, champions don't take 60 grams an hour. - No, not anymore. - Yeah, man, I was honest about that. - It just doesn't make sense. Like I think now there's even less pushback than there was a few months ago, [BLANK_AUDIO] just becoming like across the board. And another vote in favor of this is Jess McLean. She's described doing a gel every 5k and you know, she was often taking in 40 gram of carb gels and very lightly concentrated sports drink mix. Like you can do the math on that. But maybe most significant, she talked about taking it past her palate. So she does the slurp method. Megan, the slurp method has hit prime time. Did you walk her through the slurp method or something that you learned on her own? I think she learned this on her own. I think this is convergent evolution. Jess is so brilliant. I don't know if she calls it the slurp method. Maybe she heard it from us. I'm not exactly sure. I feel like she might have heard it from us. But so she takes it past her palate like we recommend with these gels, which is in training. If you practice having the gel not hit your front taste buds, one, I think it's much better as it relates to being reliable to get it in. But two, you're really preventing rejection and issues that come with just taking a gel too long. So I actually wrote a whole tutorial last week on slurping, which I'm really proud of. This is what my life has come to now. You're the king of slurps. I'm the king of slurps, Megan. You're meant to be the author on that. I'm meant to be the author of slurps. I was excited when I read that. Did you see that Andreas Omgren though? He did the more in drink mix. So he took a gel, and this is relevant. We're starting to have athletes. And this is something that we've had athletes do for a long time. But basically having all athletes do this is taking a gel after warm up. And he took a gel actually only two minutes before the start and then did the bulk of his nutrition via the more in drink mix. And then he had one calf, like Morton calf gel around. I think it was like 20 or 25k in the race. And then it's an interesting data point because I think we don't see athletes do higher carb liquid feeling often, but he was able to pull it off. I think in two hour races, it's a lot different than over two hour races because the concentration can be quite risky. Andreas Omgren also did Bicarb. He did Bicarb 19 from Wharton. Bicarb is something we're seeing across the board. And you know, I'm starting now that especially we're approaching thinking about the Olympics in 2028. I'm like, maybe we should just dial back the Bicarb talk because I think we're responsible for a lot of the popularization in the US at least. And you know, some people still haven't listened to us. And I'm like, well, if they haven't listened to us yet, now's our opportunity to shut our damn mouth. And give our athletes that we coach the best opportunity possible. Do you think that's a good idea? I mean, I feel like we should give Bicarb to the masses. It's like Android will stop it up and talking about his training. It's like if you're generous, I feel like the world will pay you back in karma. I have a scarcity mindset when it comes to Bicarb, but nothing else. Okay. So I was reading an article about Andreas Omgren. And I believe it was written by AI. It was actually an outstanding article written by AI. And so they must have had a good like data assistant or whenever you want to call it or they fed it good data. But in it, they actually said that he drank the sodium Bicarb. Oh, yeah. And I think that might have been just AI hallucinating, saying that he drank the sodium Bicarb. But I was also like, is there a product out there that we're unaware of? He boofed the sodium Bicarb. We've been talking about that for years. Even better. Yeah, once your AI personal assistant starts talking about sticking Bicarb in various offices, that's how we will know we have reached the singularity. That's how we know true superintelligence is when it's telling you to stick Bicarb up your ear hole. So that was really interesting. And another vote in just favor of high carb is Magnus Ditlev sent the Ironman record. He did seven hours and 19 minutes at Ironman, Florida. And he did 200 grams per hour on the bike. And that's a lot of carbs. He also did that that 200 grams an hour with more in drink mix as well. Which I think is a little bit easier to do the concentrated drink mix on the bike. And then he switched on the run. He dialed it back a little bit to 150 to 160 grams an hour on the run and then switched to primarily gels at that point. Yeah. So that is very different because he's putting out so much power that it's almost a direct metabolic equation where you can't put out the watts he put out without taking in I think probably 180 to 190 plus like it takes that much. And so running is a lot different than that. But over and over again, we're seeing these higher carb numbers and just another vote every long run. So the rules get complicated once you're talking about easy runs and you know, even workouts things change a little bit though we think you should take it after your warm up, especially on workout days. But on every long run, start to practice high carb like every single one, even if they're easy long runs. It is so beneficial as it relates to adaptation. And the stupid human tricks we are seeing are almost all, you know, supplemented by tons of carbohydrates and by carb. But I think the carbohydrate and by carb like just revolution is absolutely unenorable now with everyone who's being public about what they do. And one area that I've seen as a coach is I've started actually it was amazing. After New York City, we've had a lot of like fast marathoners start to believe in our coaching, which is so exciting. And so last week is a really exciting coaching week for me, you know, bringing on some really fast marathoners and people who I've like admired within sport for a long time. It's so cool when you're a fan of someone and then they reach out and you're like, what? You're in my inbox right now. This is so cool. But one of my things that I thought about as a coach is, you know, I think we have all these formulations about GI training. But I've actually just started, especially for athletes that haven't done high carb before, just being like, we can just throw you into the fire on the long run and start high carb now. And most of these athletes aren't having issues like, you know, stepping up to higher carb levels without kind of like the classic GI training model that we've thought of. Oh, absolutely. I think it's one of those places where it's just sometimes you just got to suck it up. Sometimes you just got to, you know, take 90 grams an hour for the first time on a run and usually works. It's fine. The body's made to do this stuff. I think often if you see athletes that really struggle with it, you can usually see similar patterns in their histories often where it might relate partially to the nervous system that is just tough to get down given how they've had associations with food or other things. And so my feeling in that situation is exposure therapy time when it comes to fueling, you know, just take it in and, like, basically don't baby yourself with this. If you think that you can't go, again, the high carb final starts at 75 grams. So that's basically for everybody. 90 plus is when you're starting to push harder or, you know, something like that, like, you know, or you're just doing higher power. But just throw yourself to the fire. I think that's where it's at. Okay, now do you want to talk very briefly about what Omgren put online about his training because it's so cool. And it gets back to what we talk about that we're looking at all the trading that is out there publicly and being like, what can we learn from this? And I think it's really cool too because a lot of this is his own training theory that he's put together, but he's classically been a fast athlete. Like he's gone from racing five case and 10 case to stepping up to the world half marathon champs where he won. Yeah. And then coming into New York City where this was his first road marathon. And he talks about the process of selecting New York City. Like New York City is not classically fast. Yeah. But it's run as a competitor's race. And so like, you know, we're not talking about going out like fast splits. It's something like Chicago or Berlin. It's really like run more conservatively through halfway. And then the final 10k is a fireworks race. That's what's bonkers about his data. It's dude was jogging. Oh, yeah, dude is around LT one. Just barely buzzing. Okay, guess his heart rate through half marathon. Oh, I don't know. Was it in the upper 150s? You have 156. 156 average through half marathon. Yes, he's like his like threshold is a little lower than I would have expected. Yeah. But still, that's nuts. It's so nuts. And then he ran the last 600 meters at 412 minute from outpace. And this is uphill, you know, at the end, truly, truly bonkers. He has a long term plan written down in an Excel sheet to 2029. And all this comes from an article in marathon handbook. That is truly freaky. That is a brain that we just need to put into a lab when he's all done. It was so beautiful the way that a marathon handbook actually had a great data visualization of his training and his mileage. And oftentimes he's around like one 20 to one 30 miles per week. Did you see he only had one week in about a 12 week stretch where he had illness and had to take three days off. And I was like, dude, must not have kids. Dude, must not have kids. Not getting laranjitis over there. He generally avoids a lot of efforts. It's very Norwegian in traditional structure where he's doing 120 to 150 miles per week, which bumped up a lot from his past training. Generally two double thresholds a week. One of those runs is often a continuous LT1 session, which points out how weird training theory gets for these outliers. That like 50 minute continuous LT1 session for him. So again, this is basically just above the top end of Z2 is under five minute per mile pace, whereas like most people doing that would be 10 minute per mile pace. So training theory starts to get a little weird. Like LT1 sustained runs would not be considered a workout for most humans that aren't Andreas Omgren. I was reviewing his data the other morning at 4.30 in the morning and I just started laughing out loud because he had a 50 minute continuous LT1 run and he did it at three minutes per kilometer and guess his average heart rate across that 40 minutes? Well, I'm going to look at her outline right now and that says 140. 140 and he was only he only hit 1.36 millimeters of lactate. And it's like to think about the efficiency and the running economy on this guy, but also shows too, like, you know, if I'm going out and running 40 minutes in LT1 pace, it's like it is not anywhere near that fast and so it's it's totally a different biomechanical stimulus. Yeah, I put ha ha ha in or did you? I put that in, yeah, I should have added I should have put my like my millennial self should have put low and yeah, goal for sure LMAO. And then the PM on those days, he would do something like 16 by kilometer or 5 by 2K plus 10 by 400. These are slightly harder sessions. So yeah, very Norwegian three by 50 minute heat sessions per week. I think that's interesting that the heat training is starting to permeate training theory overall, even though it hasn't become a full signal yet. Like our athletes are doing passive heat for the most part on roads, not active heat, but especially in the European athletes, you're starting to see the active heat come over from cycling and cross country skiing. I thought it was interesting to like we often stack heat days on workout and long run days to kind of concentrate the stimulus. Yeah, he was actually doing it on his recovery days. And I thought that was interesting. Like I'm not exactly sure why he was putting it that way, but he does put a lot of thought into everything. And I might be really interesting when you think about an athlete that's this fast, where once he bundles up, he doesn't have to go quite as fast to get a slightly higher stimulus, which is good, because you know, he's not getting a single. It's barely touching. If he runs seven minute pace, he is basically sitting on the couch. I mean, he is adapting to it aerobically. It does help, but it is such a low stimulus, whereas if he runs seven minute pace in heat, it's a lot different type stimulus. So maybe it helps supplement the adaptive stress, which he needs because he's so economical. Very similar to how when we talk about Kylian Jordanitch training, we're like, "Oh, well, he's seeking clearly ways to stress his body more." At least he was. And that's really relevant that sometimes the outliers actually aren't trying to avoid stress. They're trying to gobble up as much as they can. Like, it's Pac-Man. And stress is the little, I don't know, dots. Do they get dots? What are they? I don't know the little bunch with the Pac-Man lunches on. Yeah. Yeah. They should make it cooler than dots. It's doing that holes. Oh, that's cool. That's cool. That's cool. It's high-car Pac-Man. Yeah. Actually, as you were saying that though, I thought you're going to say, I was thinking of Tadeh of, you know, Tadeh probably has very similar physiology, but the difference is biomechanically, it's a lot easier to put out. Like, you know, Tadeh doing Z2 on the bike doesn't rip off his body in the same way as Andreas Albuengrin doing Z2 on the run. And this is one reason we're moving so many people to upheld treadmill. In fact, this past week, video came out on YouTube called the workout that makes aerobic monsters on upheld treadmill Z2 that digs into this detail. And it went pretty viral. I mean, for me. That's pretty cool. For us. I think it's because you were shirtless. That's it. Yeah, I'm actually kind of confident in that. I'm almost positive. That's not it. Cody sent us a reel for the video and you were in a shirt for the first part. And then in the second part of the reel, your shirt was off. And I was like, Cody, we need to input that. He should say, flip it in reverse. I always like flip it in reverse. We got to capture people in the first five seconds with shirtless David. Yeah. I think it's up to 150K after just a few days. So people are interested in this. But it gets to the idea that like, you know, if you're starting to get really economical, you know, zone two in general, even if you're not economical, it is a lot of pounding on the body. And upheld treadmill is one way to start off with that pounding, whether it's threshold or LT1 style work like this. Very interestingly, even though a lot of people focus on his bigger aerobic sessions, he's also doing tons of strides. So two sets of strides per week, generally, sometimes free. In his base phases, he was doing 24 by 35 second hills. So this was like more like track season. That's pretty darn bonkers. And it gets all these Norwegian training systems almost always have a session like this, something like 20 by 30 second hills. So you're getting tons of this top end that people for some reason conveniently ignore. And they just focus on the low millimole extended sessions. But I think it only works if you're also doing top end development. That is maybe the key learning when you see convergent evolution across systems is that look for the top end development. And it doesn't look sexy because it's usually just three or four minutes a week, sometimes in the case of this, I don't know, 12. But it like adds up. But it doesn't look like much time in the week, but it might be the most important time in the week. And then in addition to the short hills, he was also paying attention to hills on the long run and preparing his leg for the legs for the fatigue resistance of New York City. So he spent the last part of his training block in Flagstaff at higher altitudes. And he was doing some of the classic Flagstaff runs. I've accumulating like 800 feet, 1000 feet per long run in terms of vert, which is for these red athletes a substantial amount. And so, you know, seeing him focus on that strength component over the hills was great. Yeah. He's a monster. He's getting up to 40k on those runs. So very interesting also probably doesn't to still down to everybody. Basically what swap is what we're trying to do is take Kanova principles. So we're not a Kanova, this brilliant Italian coach who really led the charge in the explosion of the marathon in the early 2000s. But, you know, notably, I got to be really careful about any training 30 derived in the early 2000s from the best in the world just because of what we know from sports like cycling. And then you see Norwegian training, which is coming in with a slightly different approach. And then kind of combining the two for athletes who don't absorb quite stress, quite in the same way. So good. Good on Andres Omgren. That was really cool. So now let's get on to a marathon training point. But before that, quick promo for Patreon, just cut this out. patreon.com/swapsduap. If you want to see how all this works, there's a champion half marathon to marathon plan there that is zone compression theory. Basically, how we apply all of these principles. And it's been so fun to do. It's been really cool to see also the training articles, David, that you've put together. So you put together a marathon long run training article that walked through the rationale behind each long run in what is often used in this marathon plan. And I think even for me, I was learning as I was reading it. And I think like one of the big things that I've been trying to help athletes with is just like the understanding behind each session. Like, you know, for asking athletes to show up and do 22 mile long runs with marathon half marathon 10k efforts sprinkled in there. Yeah. It's really helpful to understand the why behind it. Like to me, that just motivates me so much more. Yeah, it's so fun to do this with you and learn we've had just a blast doing our journal clubs recently where obviously the podcast we talk about all the studies, but talking about specific athlete training and then challenging defending very similar to what Andreas Omgren's doing with his coach. It's like so fun to do with you, Megan. It's been so fun. So what we do actually is we sit down usually on a Thursday this week. It was on a Sunday. And we bring many of our pro athletes like training logs and training plants to the table. And it is exactly like that. It's like we each plan out the training. And then we have to defend it. Yeah. And it's just it's one of my favorite parts of the week now is getting to share that time with you. But then to also like prepare my lawyer brain. I'm like I'm coming up against a lawyer. I got to have a good defense on this workout. Yeah. But I feel like you have a grand rounds brain, right? That's true. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, the morbidity and mortality. Yeah, crossing grand round and cross examination. Also tons of bonus episodes there. I think erupted to 15 something like that. And so if you like the pod, those are all training oriented. And now we have a message of the week actually from Patreon, which I don't know if you've read this one yet. Here it is. And MFW. What does MFW mean? I actually have no clue. I think it means man for a woman. I was going to say something fucking way, right? I don't think so. But it says I'm absolutely fucking the dog. And David reads my comment on the podcast. So I want to bring this because I was like, I have never heard of the idiom fucking the dog. I like to think that this person just made it up on the fly because it is truly remarkable. I personally love that idiom. I think that whoever made that idiom, though, should go to the zoo and get slightly more creative. So we went to the zoo this weekend. And I feel like there's lots of opportunity to fill in the mad lips. Okay. Yeah. If you could fill in the mad lips with one animal from the zoo, which one would it be? I'm definitely fucking that deer thing from Africa. Oh my god. There was this beautiful. This thing was majestic. It was majestic. It just the way it carried itself with confidence. I really, it wasn't the appearance necessarily that made this deer attractive. It was more confidence. No, you should. I actually think it's an important thing is like, yeah, I think there's something about confidence that is very sexy. Yeah. Like, I don't know. I just think that or someone like stepping into themselves authentically. Yeah. I think it's authenticity because like confidence sometimes I feel like is derived from the wrong places. But I think when confidence comes from a place of authenticity like this deer, it is just like, it is so sexy. So an inclusion. Fucking the deer is the new idiom could be our third. You just something about banging the deer. And I was like, well, I kind of bang the deer too. I didn't make this joke. Yes, they're well children around. But I was quiet for the most part. You were very funny at the zoo. With the first thing we walked in, we saw penguins, which were great. I mean, they're some cute penguins. And you looked at them and you're like, I just really want to see some charismatic megafauna. And I was like, that's a great joke. Within 35 seconds of the zoo. That's like correct when it comes to zoology. Also, you were a really, you were the best dress at the zoo. You are a really nice shirt at the zoo. Yeah. I did wear my sexy outfit. I feel like. Why? I like, I respect that. I wanted you to, like, you're going to be looking at me a lot that day. And I wanted you to see a good version of me. Was it for me or the deer? That's true. We both saw good versions of you. It changed about halfway through that. But interestingly, I was wearing my dress pants. I have one pair. And I've had them for many years. And now they have like a four inch slit hole on the undercarriage. And so I was wearing underneath my lead bill orange shorts. So periodically, you just get a glimpse of orange. I should get you some boxer shorts. I've actually never seen you in boxer shorts before, which is wild. I think it's because like you can start them underwear. And you've never worn underwear. But be pretty sexy to fill that hole with boxer shorts. No, Megan, don't talk about me that. I have worn underwear just when I was a kid. And then eventually I decided underwear don't make sense. I don't understand. Underwear is just for kids. I mean, no, no, I uplift everyone's decisions when it comes to their undergarments. I'm just saying that for me, for me, it's another thing to have to plan. And I don't know, just simplify. I basically always simplify. Underwear isn't necessary. At least for men. No, I agree. I mean, I wear underwear maybe about 10 percent of the time. See, you've been influenced. I've been influenced. Yes. Absolutely. But I did look it up actually. And fucking the dog is a Canadian. Oh, of course, it would be the Canadians are so cool. It has a parallel in the US, which is screwing the pooch. Oh, screw in the pooch. Of course. How do we not think about that? I totally blanked on it. Yeah. And talk about this a little bit on the bonus podcast. And someone followed up here. I worked in construction in Canada and everybody says fucking the dog. I find it so gross. Even though I know it's not literal and not even precious with swearing or anything, I just love dogs lol. I mean, they don't love dogs enough. I was going to say we've got to love dogs some more. We're going to back up that statement. Okay. Oh, here's another final thing before we get back to marathon training. Can you please talk about the death of the Cybertruck on this week's episode? Lol. How many times did you get sent the article about Tesla's stopping production of the Cybertruck? So we have a lot of new listeners, which is kind of funny after the whole dog and deer thing. Yes, sorry. My voice is usually much better. This is like you're selling great. You're first time in the podcast. I am so sorry. I mean, you're crushing it. You're amazing. But yeah, I got sent the news that they're just consuming the Cybertruck at least a hundred times from various sources like my entire inbox is filled with it, which is like wow. So on the podcast, I said I do genuinely enjoy the appearance of Cybertruck. They make me happy. And this comes from Leo who are four-year-old. Every time he sees a Cybertruck, he gets hyped and he can spot them. I mean, there'll be a Cybertruck that's literally like a quarter mile away in the highway. And he's like cyber truck. It's amazing. And they're kind of cool. Like I think if you take away all context, all of your previous knowledge, like if you just came into the world as a little baby again, if you got hit by a Subaru again. Yeah, yeah. Clear clear the slate. Yeah. And your brain you wake up. No hard drive. Yeah, exactly. All the software is gone. You don't even know what a car is. And you saw a pink cybertruck. You'd be like, "That's pretty cool." - Oh, you're coming around to the pink cybertruck. - Yeah, no. - It's like, I think it's kind of a rose-colored cybertruck and it caught me, it's good. - So they just continued it. I was asked by many people for an official comment, and so my official comment is that I am not grieving the cybertrucks we will not have. I am celebrating the ones we do have. - Yeah. - And hopefully continued, I mean, I imagine they're gonna continue like, you know, service and production parts and things like that that we need to replace, yeah. - I wouldn't guarantee that. - Okay, but there were so few cybertruck sold, so I started to look into like how many cybertrucks were sold. - Why did you research this? - Because I'm curious. - This is all vibes. - Yeah, well, why else? Only 20,000 cybertrucks, approximately, were sold in 2025. - Okay. - That feels like a really low number. - No, yeah, I mean. - I asked Leo, I was like, Leo, how many cybertrucks do you think were sold in 2025? And he said 30, so we're up from 30. - That's approximately correct. - Still, that's a really low number. - So in conclusion, go to patreon. - patreon.com/swap- - We probably just lost some Patreon, people from that. - No, no, they understand. They understand where we're coming from. Hey, you can't get hate on Bosch. I do get hate from everybody. - Yeah, yeah. - I'll take a lot from everybody. It's all part of the same thing. - And the poochers. - And the bill of commerce. - Yeah. - Oh, man. So now, let's get into a way I was very, very wrong. - I like how you started that on a somber tone, but this is the ultimate good thing about being wrong. And this refers to the OTQ standard of a few years ago, the USATF lowered the OTQ standard to 237 for the women. And you came out and you're like, this feels like it's against inclusion. Like we want as many women as possible on the marathon of the OTQ starting line. - Yeah. - And you know what? We're getting there because we're faster. - Yeah, it's bonkers. And so they lowered the men's time to 216 into it. And my position was just, well, these are done on open roads. Just invite as many people as possible, make it a big tent. And USATF's argument was that by making the standards challenging, you're gonna raise the level of the whole sport. And guess who is right, USATF. Gotta hand it to them sometimes, they were right on this one. So some data on this, last cycle. So all of 2024 cycle, 165 women qualified under that standard. We're already at 168 and we are a year and a half away. We are gonna be seeing humongous numbers. I mean, we haven't even hit California International Marathon this year, which is the place where most people in the US get it. It is just going to go wild at that start line. - And this past weekend at the Indie Money Mental Marathon, which is not even a big marathon for athletes targeting LGBTQ. We had 14 women under 237. And it's like this is just to see just women going for the standard in this faster time. And I think a lot of it is driven by carbs. And seeing now everyone at that level, adopt higher carb feeling basically. It's really exciting to see. - Yeah, I think higher carb feeling is basically changing everything when it comes to training. But yeah, I mean, why was I wrong? I think I was wrong because I'm a little bitch. - Oh, you're a favorite inclusion. - Yeah. - It's always good to be on the side of inclusion. - But I would have guessed that these numbers are wrong. I wouldn't have said that this is gonna be what happens at this short of time, right? Because we're probably gonna end up seeing 500 or more even. And yeah, so that's on me. You know, I have to adjust my priorities. And maybe to get myself credit, it gets back to the fact that high carb hadn't proliferated in the same way. - Neither has bicarb actually at that point in 2024. - Yeah, and so we're still looking at different options. Like, my guess is that the OTQ standard and the next cycle is gonna drop even more. But now I understand why and I can totally foresee it. So it's important, I think, just genuinely to reevaluate why I was wrong because that clearly has coaching implications because I was missing something that was right there beneath the surface the whole time. - Okay, let's contrast this now. So this weekend, the Olympic marathon standards were released in all distances from 5K to marathon. - Yes, so the World Athletic Standards for the Olympic qualification in 2028. - And they are bonkers fast, both on the men's and the women's side. And this is an area where I actually feel a little bit less excitement. It's like, yes, raise the bar. Athletes are gonna start to run faster and faster times. I think the challenge here though is that these times are starting to get anchored in just unrealistic tricks of human physiology. Like a woman running a 210 marathon. What does that mean for anchoring time points in things that are humanly physiologically possible versus data points that are like, if you consider the trajectory of history that are driven by doping. And so this conversation feels trickier to me on a very similar point. - Maybe, maybe not. - I know, maybe we're gonna be wrong. - So for context here, the men's Olympic marathon standard is 205. - That is bonkers thus. - And if one American man's ever ran under that. - I was gonna say that's, we're getting close to the American record. - And 222 30 for women, there have been American women under that. But very, very challenging to reach and in much faster than it's been in the past. So the devil's advocate point here would be, well, we're not trying to fill all the spots with these standards. This is mainly a way to reward excellence and to push everybody faster. But the contrasting point gets back to what you said. You can think about this as it relates to the 222 30. That's not based on the number of women running 220. That's based on the fact that the very fastest women in the world have gone to 10 nowadays. And what we have seen is that it is so unlikely that that's done clean. Like maybe there's a time in the future where it is, but like from Ruth Chapnagic and others, it just seems like it pushes against the seams of credibility. And again, not casting aspersions on any individual who hasn't been implicated in this. Just the idea that once you start anchoring times and oh, a human can run this. So this standard is totally reasonable. I think it's not doing a statistical service to the entire sport because then it incentivizes athletes to make the same terrible decisions that athletes who have reset the outlier times might have made. So it gets back to my point last week. In the same reason, I don't love time trial races for international competitions. I don't love time trial, rewarding time trial performances on this level. I think it should be more based on competitive status, which is why I love the idea that's right alongside this that if you're top five at a platinum label marathon, like the New York City marathon, you auto qualify. So even though Jess ran a 224 at New York, she gets an auto qualify for her second place. That to me seems so much better as it relates to incentivizing the right decisions. - And those spots though are tricky. And I wonder if there's a way like, walk me through, do you think there's a way in which it's better? So do you think it's like, you know, backing up from those times slightly or increasing like, I think like, you know, focusing on competition and head to head competition helps a lot. So do you think that increasing the number of qualifying spots from platinum like marathonings, but maybe it's setting that out to like the top 10. Like how do you even, how do you even fix the system? - Now it becomes like astrophysics. - It's true, yeah. - Because there's so many moving parts of what's actually gonna happen with qualifications. You don't have to hit the time to qualify in all cases, especially in the marathon. USATF can reallocate, but it depends on how many US athletes are in the top 56 of the quota. And right now, at least in the world rankings, there's only one, but you would assume that the US will get the full suite of appearances by the end. Who knows though? We might be coming on a point that next in 2028, there are some athletes who are trying to like, gain the system last second to get a qualifying time because then you're basically guaranteed a spot as long as you finish the OTQ marathon. Though, I would think for women, we're gonna have a lot more than that, just because I think US women are on the come up in a such an insane way. For men, it might just be two spots. It might just be one spot. We don't know for sure. I think it's gonna be, it's really gonna require a leap up in performance, which just makes me nervous when you're thinking about why they're pushing the times this high in the first place. - I do predict. I think we're gonna see three women on the starting. - Oh, for sure. - I'm sure that if you look at the marathon, I would bet all my money on that eventuality for women. - But it is wild because as we saw in Chicago, we're seeing this explosion in American male marathoning. That is exciting. I think it's exciting to the US and to the growth of marathoning to see that, but my prediction is, I think we'll see less than three. - Yeah, I think that's a good one. I would take that that if we were going against each other because of what's happening right now, but we'll see, it's interesting. Maybe the secret here is that if you raise standards, people always rise up to meet the standards. That might be what the USATF thing is indicating, even though it's a very different level of performance, that might also happen at this level because everybody trains all year round in a different way. Actually, a great example of this is Charlie Sweeney at the track. One of the ways we've adjusted his training this year, as we're coming off of Berlin, where he ran the fastest American time ever, is we're doing a lot of work at goal marathon pace, and that goal marathon pace is set at 448 minutes per mile, which is 206. Maybe now we change it so that it's 205 pace, a couple of seconds faster. And if we do that, maybe he adapts in a slightly different way. Like, baby, baby, baby, baby. - Yeah. - You're just by changing the aperture, just by changing where you're focusing, you also just change how physiology works. And maybe that's a secret for all performance, is just set the goal a little bit higher, believe in it long enough, train like it, and eventually your physiology adapts for unrealistic expectations. - Well, this is actually an area that I picked up from journal club, is the concept of dream marathon pace. Is I've been adding that to a lot of athletes workouts after doing some quality time, like doing faster efforts, two, three minute efforts, 600, 801K efforts, and then finishing up with dream marathon pace, whether that's like two by two mile dream marathon pace, even just one mile at dream marathon pace. And I think it's a great way, actually, to hit something that's around threshold, after accumulating already a lot of work, and accounting for the fact that there's going to be hard drift. But what happens if you anchor that dream marathon pace in something like 222.30 for women or 205 for men, and it's like, does the physiology adapt that long term? And I think that's really fun to think about. - I think it could. Yeah, dream marathon pace is such an interesting concept because we like to do effort so much when it comes to threshold, but how threshold varies day to day can be so weird, right? It can be 30 seconds per mile difference, like you don't want to do it too much if you're doing it as a major focus, Bye! When you do dream marathon pace, it's very easy to identify a pace that then you can achieve in training and will approximate threshold. So I liked it a lot. Okay, let's get on to the study this week. It's called cross acclimation and endurance performance following adaptation to dry heat and humid heat. So this addresses a question we get all the time, which is basically should I use the sauna or should I use, I guess, what is it called like a steam room, steam room, boom. And I've always said dry sauna. And this starts to address that question. And this took trained male cyclists. I believe 22 trained male cyclists and had them do a crossover design of 30 minute time trials. One of this time trials was done in a hot and dry environment of 42 degrees Celsius. And that's 107 degrees Fahrenheit. So quite hot or done in a warm humid environment of 33 degrees Celsius, which is 91 degrees Fahrenheit and 80% humidity. And so they're creating these conditions because they're matched for wet bulb temperature, which is when you consider the humidity impacts on an overall like feel of the temperature. Yeah. And the big money findings here were that in the dry time trial, the dry acclimation groups, the regular sauna group added, did 14 watts better. And then the humid acclimation group only did six watts better. So it seems like dry acclimation helps more in dry heat. But then in humid heat, the dry acclimation group gained 10, 12 watts. And the humid acclimation group gained nine watts, which was a non significant difference. So we're seeing some signal that dry heat is probably better, but it's not like that much better steam room can get you most of the way. And so if you enjoy it, just, you know, do what you love. And in terms of the heat acclimation, so these dry and humid groups were spending, it was eight days of focused training and either that dry or humid atmosphere. And then of course, yeah, those were matched to the wet bulb temperature. And I guess the point too that like, I don't know, I feel like I feel like we've seen athletes prepare for humid conditions really well, just doing regular heat training. Yeah. And it's nice to have confidence that that can carry you into hot and humid racing. Yeah, basically exposure to humidity as it relates to passive heat exposure or even active probably isn't the one thing driving you though, there might be some sort of almost like psychological perceptual change that needs to happen. But this aligns with what you see in the real world is that people choose dry saunas when they can choose hot tub might be better than both or at least similar to both. So as always, gold standard hot tub, dry saunas, one thing that all of our athletes do, just talked about this a lot that she would be doing 10 days of heat training before her races. We recommend it most of the year, she's busy though, so here's a quote from the study. Our data indicate that dry acclimation and humid acclimation improved self-paced endurance performance in each respective environment. And in the opposing environment, however, dry acclimation further improved in performance in dry conditions, then humid acclimation, what performance in human conditions was similarly improved following both interventions. So heat is good, you don't need to get too precious about what type of heat you're doing. And I think this is an area, and this is something that I've bought into a lot recently, is I think there's actually both greater adaptation and greater performance in heat environments when you think you are good at heat. That's so true. And this is leading into the next study. And I think this is an area where like, microdose and gaslighting yourself can actually be full of just convincing yourself that you're good in heat. And for me, I've actually taken that one logical step forward, which is that yes, I'm going to get altitude, even though I think my physiology may in fact not be, but I think even psychologically thinking of that can be quite helpful. So you're saying gaslighting is an adaptation that we want to pursue? I think microdosing gaslighting. Microdosing gaslighting. Yeah, you need to fully gaslight yourself. But just a little bit of belief about the heat and also about humidity and altitude can be quite helpful. It is interesting to think, like the word belief means a lot of different things. And I think it's really easy from the outside to be like, of course, this athlete believes in themselves. They just achieved some great thing. But if you zoom back far enough, there is a point where belief looks delusional. And it depends how long it is, right? If you go to Rachel Rudel, who's had this insane year a year ago, if you told her what was going to happen this year, it'd be like, of course, that's delusional, makes no sense. For most of us, if you go back 10 years, where we are now seems relatively delusional. So the idea is like, how do you overcome, go from delusion to something that seems inevitable? Like there is some moment where delusion almost becomes like, oh, of course, of course, that person believes in themselves. And I think this actually, the study gets to some of that thinking in a way that is falsifiable in a scientific sense, which is very, very cool. Well, first before we get to that study, I want to answer that question of what does it look like to go from delusion to belief? Yeah. And I feel like I've been latching on to the term try hard recently of just like, you know, I'm showing up to the gym each day and trying really hard on the elliptical for the sake of just like loving the try hard process. Yeah. But I feel like if you put try hard between delusional and belief, it's like, that's such a great modifier of just try and really freaking hard every single day and turning that little bit of delusion into a little bit of belief every single day. And I think that helps. Can we call our boulder team the delusional try hard track? Yeah. You know what? I'm actually coming around to the try hard track club. People are into it. It was my straw that titled the other day because I always had the elliptical and I was like, I just need this right now. That's what it's at. I love it. You should have started with delusional try hard because I would have come too. I would have stopped delusional and come to try hard. Oh, I should have given you something to negotiate down. Yeah. It's like when you're negotiating, you should have thrown something huge in the fire and I would have knocked it down a peg. You're a lawyer in me over here. Okay. So the study is called greater perceptual, but not thermophysiological, responsive to heat exposure and heat sensitive compared with heat resilient individuals. I love that. It's a big word salad, but it basically describes what happens here. So they had athletes split up into two groups, which were based on self ratings. One was heat sensitive. So people that said, I'm a little bitch and heat, not in technical terms, but that's a summary. Great. You would have said that as of like four years ago, relatively recently in my journey. And then the other group, which was considered themselves heat resilient, they did a four-hour heat exposure protocol, which involved passipate simulated sunlight and light exercise and heat. And here's a quote, heat sensitive participants reported greater thermal discomfort already. Five minutes into the exposure protocol and substantially higher discomfort following simulated sunlight and in the exercise. But even though they had these feelings, there were no differences in their physiological outcomes. So in other words, the people that thought they were good and heat were the same in heat when it comes to anything we can measure. So maybe we're missing some stuff in what we're measuring, but realistically based on hate response, we're really not part of it's just how you feel about it. And I love how they summarize this. But actually, you know what, popcorn David, because that's a long paragraph and my voice, my voice doesn't have this in me. Here it is. In conclusion, self-rated ability to tolerate hot environments was predictive of perceptual responses, such as thermal discomfort and alertness, despite similar thermophysical physiological strain. And without difference in the occurrence of severe dizziness or impairments in motor cognitive performance. So yeah, this is one of my favorite studies ever because I had a this journey, right? I was always bad in heat, if a race was high sun, even I would suffer. And I just have this history, even my dad has this history as a cramp boy, had so much going on. And then all of a sudden, I mean, part of it corresponds with doing more heat. But I think I made the change. I think that's the tri-hard element, though, is I feel like you almost need to, by the fact that you were trying really hard in heat and doing a lot of heat training, it gave you the ability to take control through data points that you were working really hard and then turned the delusion into actual belief. So yeah, the delusion, the cool thing about delusion plus tri-hard is that it actually becomes physiology through, you know, stacking bricks of whatever the thing is. It's not just like your brain changes and is that in making just the slight changes that happen from delusion, I mean, gets back to the marathon standards, even your body fundamentally changes at a cellular level, not because your brain wills it, but because the actions you take based on that delusion. And this is where I love thinking about tri-hard as a modifier. So if we call it like tri-hard track club, tri-hard is literally a modifier on everything. It's like the act of trying hard is giving you that little push forward. It's almost like having a tailwind of tri-hard. Are you now on board with tri-hard track club? I think I'm talking myself into this. What is happening? Well, you just got high with that voice. I mean, actually, I'm the way here to record the podcast, we were listening to "Ain't No Mountain High" enough. And I just like, I cannot help but sing to that song. And I was like, "Rest your voice, ma'am?" I really should not sing that song, I'm actively ruining the song, but yeah, it's irresistible. How can you not sing that song? I love it. You got some gravitas in your voice right now. Yeah, it's some, I really sound like a horned toad or something. A horned toad? Yeah, we didn't see any of those at the zoo, but we should have. A head tilt? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, they'd be our third. So yeah, I mean, I think that there's probably something we're missing here, not to totally downplay it. That most likely, that increased perceptual strain is something that we're not measuring. And just because you can't measure something in a lab, doesn't mean it's not very real. So I don't want to downplay that. Well, I also wonder, like, you know, there are certain characteristics of people, like lower fairytale levels or things that make it harder to perform at heat. And maybe, you know, those participants are sensing that within themselves in terms of how they rate. And so yes, there is something here, but I think those can all be modified. So what was it that you've called me in the past, like something bitch? Some, there's something that we've set on the podcast, like, oh, I don't know, little bitch boy. I've called myself that. I've not called you a little bitch boy. Do you want me to have a whole thing on the podcast that we have called me? I can't remember. People out there are probably excruing this to the universe right now, yeah. But I think that part of it was just toughening up as it relates to heat and part of that is heat exposure. And part of it is deciding I was good in heat and then acting accordingly. And it gets back to almost VO2 max where I'm like, don't do a VO2 max test. In fact, you know, coach a ton of athletes now sponsored by shoe companies who are doing physiological testing to end the year. And I'm like, all testing is good. Do not do a VO2 max test. I do not want to know the number, I do not want them to know the number, I do not want you to know the number. I want you to assume it's 100 and train accordingly, all adjust training as it relates to my understanding of your physiology. But I think having those things said in stone, almost anchors your current place somewhere that doesn't allow then this process of tri-harding to make the difference. It is capable of making because you feel like you're always going into a headwind and basically we just want to use data to create a tailwind. Well, also, I've seen some really wrong data recently. I had an athlete from a major shoe company send me their physiological testing and I was like, how are the even anchoring these LT1 and LT2 data points? Like, it makes fully no sense and so also to like, you know, sometimes you walk into a lab and the data that comes out is just like, you know, wrong, too. And so you never want to anchor yourself in wrong data. That's the problem of doing single day tests of anything. I think all testing you do needs to be able to be recalibrated constantly because if it's not, you could just be catching a single day, which on one hand it might be louder. All these instruments have air, all of the protocols have air. But more, it just might be catching a weird physiological moment and especially for women, there is no standard physiological moment. That's true. The menstrual cycle impacts and all of this is tricky. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which craft over there? Yeah. One really interesting data point is so a year ago, I got a Kailena IUD and it's actually been fascinating because now over this span of a year, which is very normal, is I have, like, you know, I basically don't get periods anymore, which after you've had an IUD for a year is quite normal. And it's kind of nice because talk about like delusional belief is because of that I'm not aware of being an alludial phase, thus even though my body is still cycling normally from a hormonal perspective, I know that from lab work, I don't actually experience alludial phase and it's great. Yeah, that is amazing. I, you know, it's complicated because we get messages from people all the time asking about, well, isn't this a bad thing because then I can't monitor menstrual cycle status? I think it can be a good thing as long as you're throwing a ton, I think you have to have a ton of carbs and also get the blood work to make sure that you're not in a state of low energy availability if you're not having that feedback from the menstrual cycle. Yeah. And I'm joking about menstrual cycle, but like, I think one of the places where we're on the cutting edge is understanding menstrual cycle and performance at the truly elite level. And everybody talks about this or at least thinks about it behind the scenes, but not that many people are talking about it. So we should do a full thing on how we've learned about this. But generally what you're seeing at the Olympic level nowadays are hormonal IUDs and varies a ton. Everybody does different things. So my guess is that part of the reason you're seeing that is that extreme fluctuations that can happen just physiologically, not even thinking about hormones. But with the demands of the menstrual cycle puts on the body as you're going through it, even if it's just bleeding, are pretty substantial and vary by the person. Some people have the performance of their lives at every single day of the menstrual cycle. Like you've seen that overcoaching, but some athletes are deeply affected by it. And it seems like these hormonal IUDs cause a slight blunting of that response in some people, though it's tough to be certain and like obviously subject to a million disclaimers there. And everybody's being different. Some people have extreme mental health crises on hormonal IUDs and varies for everybody. I was going to say I see so much variance and I've gotten to the point where athletes tell me like, okay, I'm having, you know, maybe it's depression or anxiety associated with IUDs and it's like listen to that data point. Even if you go into the OB-GYN and they're like, well, leave that IUD in there. We just put it in there. Yeah. And so I think this is an area of just listening to your body. But for me, it's actually been quite helpful. You know, I think there'll be times when I was had, I's had such a regular 28 day period that I knew in the four days before my period started, I wouldn't feel good. And now I actually don't know that timing and it's kind of great. Yeah. In conclusion, heat training. Yeah. Okay. Should we do a few questions? Your voice really needs to- Let's do this to questions. We got this. We need to shouldn't get off the pot here. Yeah. Let's do it. First off though, Wahoo, treadmills are going to be on sale starting very soon. And so what date we got here, it's currently November 10th as we're recording 10 days from now. They're going to be on sale. A big old sale. Get ready. Like, look at the Wahoo, treadmills. It is the best thing on the market. And you know, this is the type of thing that will change your training. Everybody who's ever run on one gets it like immediately. So yeah. Just throwing it out there. Get ready with your checkbooks if you're interested in this sort of thing. It is so smooth. Do you think your YouTube went viral because you were shirtless or because the machine is so smooth? I mean, it's like we want to see the chevron pattern of that Wahoo kicker. People love machines. They really do love machines. They love machines. So you know, check out Wahoo now and get ready. We'll announce it more formally next week. So now maybe a couple questions. What do you think? Let's do it. We got this. First one. Near the start of the race, I was talking to two other runners. So they gave me a big preamble about their amazing race. One guy was asking us questions and the other was answering because he was the best runner among the three of us. He told him to do pushups as a league exercise. And I didn't say he was wrong, but I added single leg step ups. Hell yeah. That kind of tired of listening to some of the stuff he was saying. So I went a little ahead, but I could still hear them. I heard that one guy say, you don't need all that high carb stuff. All you need is 10 grams per hour. Also saying keto is great. I didn't say anything because I didn't want to make him feel like I was putting him down. But now I'm thinking, what if he gets hurt by following his advice, what would you have done in this situation? Oh, the situation. The situation is quite common. You know, in this situation, I would just try to run as fast as I possibly can. And it wouldn't disabuse them of the low carb notion. I mean, this is like disabusing someone of a belief system. I don't care. But the thing is like, OK, if I was in a position of coaching someone, a position of power, if I were a friend, if I were a close relationship, I would say something. But I think if this is someone who's standing on a start line and you don't have a personal relationship with them, then, you know, getting at their belief system before they're about to start a race feels like not a productive thing for either person. They're talking to someone else about it. So they're infecting them with the idea from a place of supposed authority. Well, hopefully that person listens to the podcast and they're like, yeah, we're not going to go keto. Yeah. I don't know, though. OK, let's give you a hypothetical. OK, that you're in a situation where you're with two other people. And one of those other people is very confidently saying that the most important thing you can do is take a shit on Pearl Street, just like in the middle of Pearl Street. You do that every day, right? Yeah. Would you feel like you have some of a responsibility to tell that person, hey, maybe don't take a shit on Pearl Street? I do. But I think it gets to intent is I think that indicates poor intent, whereas I think this person has a belief system that in their head indicates good intent. Like by them sharing this, this information to the other runner, they're intending the other runner. Good, good feeling. What if the person thinks you should shit on Pearl Street because it gives, like, little children new books? Well, I think they're so non-sensical. Just because it intends well, non-sensical, like good intent doesn't mean anything when it causes harm on the other side. Yeah, I think I think this is a tricky area of, you know, if you don't have a personal relationship and you're just standing in the starting line with this person, like, I, maybe this is just me being a non-confrontational woman, I probably wouldn't say anything. Okay. The next time anybody sees shit on Pearl Street, remember Megan endorses it. Megan, I'm not even answering that question because it's not a logical leap. This is why I'm aware. This is not a good analogy. This is why I was a bad lawyer. Yeah. I'm like, this doesn't even work. No, it totally works, Megan. You're just shitting all over public spaces now. I mean, I kind of do that at baseline. Accidentally. Yeah, oops. Oops. I did it again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I actually told this person that you shouldn't say anything. Well, that's the thing is, like, you know, if it's an athlete, I coach, we have, I have very real honest discussions with athletes. I coach, you know, if this is a friend, I would probably have that conversation too, but it's just tricky to have, you know, nuance conversations with someone standing on a starting line. I think more to the point that criticism or that sort of thing should only be given when it is solicited. Exactly. Yeah. Or that solicitation is implied or it's implicit in your relationship. So like, you know, you, you could give me any sort of criticism you ever want, right? Or I think if it's, there's someone who is actually intending harm for a purpose and that gets back to the shitting on parole street. It's like, well, if you're going to go shit and on parole street, just for shitting angles, I would argue that saying take 10 grams an hour is intending harm, like, or it is causing harm. So it doesn't matter what your intent is. Yeah. I mean, I think it's different, though, when I think their intent is good, even though it's causing harm. Okay, but that doesn't matter because that is a mistake of their brain that they have been deluded by people who are just wrong. I mean, we see this in politics all the time, right? People very passionately and, you know, think they're doing good for the world and they're actually doing bad for the world. Like, is there a responsibility there to say something? I mean, I think it depends on the situation, but if you're walking around, it's a lot of responsibility for someone just to like, you know, now I'm going to give you another hypothetical about politics. Oh, do it. No, okay, next, uh, wait, Megan, guess what I forgot? What? We had a whole section earlier on the best shoe ever. Oh, true. And we just skipped it. Yeah, we should go back to that. Let's go back to it right now, which is the Nike Vomero Plus that Plus only, not the premium, the premium I wear for walking around. They are my grandpa shoes. It is a, I mean, it's not a, it's a sexy grandpa shoe. I don't know if it's sexy. It's a lot. I mean, I would be together with you in a nursing home. Sure. Yeah. Exactly. But the Vomero Plus, I have seen on the feet of so many pro athletes who aren't sponsored by a shoe company recently, it's not like a workout shoe necessarily, though you could go fast in it. It is just such a good trainer, um, it makes my feet feel just amazing. And, um, it's not world athletics approved, so you can't use it for racing either because it's too much sack height, but it's so light for what it is. It really feels like Nike kind of figured out the training shoe equation with this option. Does it feel fast because, you know, I think the use of it is just really on easy runs. But I still care about being economical on easy runs. I've been wearing it on the return and my economy looks great in these shoes. I think Zoom X foam is obviously responsive. It doesn't have a plate, which might be a good thing, right? It might be productive for how you interact with the ground. So, yeah, the shoe has really got, in fact, the other day, I was looking at them on the ground in our house, and they gave me very similar feelings as when I see you, right? Like, if you did me, if you put me in an FMRI machine and saw how my brain lit up when I see these shoes, it's not quite the same level, but it's probably the same areas lighting up as when I see you. I should surround our bed with just a bunch of Omero premium shoes. Pluses. Pluses? Well, premiums are so different. I know. But I think your brain lights up similarly. - No, no, we can alter it. - I think it's important. We have people right in that they got premiums, and we're not saying to get premiums. - Just walk around in the premiums, they're cute. - They're expensive to walk around it. - They're expensive to walk around in. How did you feel? Did you wear them on your time out around this morning? And you know, that run has a mix of trails. Were you, did you feel okay like stability wise in our backyard trails? - I absolutely love 'em, they're so good. So yeah, just a shout out for that. And now, I think we get on the listener corner, Megan. We gotta give your voice a break. - Yeah, dude, I did it. - You did it, you crushed it. - Thank you, if you made it here, thank you. - Yeah, we're sorry about the sickness week. I'll probably have it next week. - No, I think you're good. I mean, you haven't been using my toothbrush, so you're taking a gamble. - Yeah, that is a sign of like a certain type of relationship is that we're a unibrush household now. - A unibrush household. I mean, we've always been a unibrush household, right? - That's true. - At what point did we start using the same toothbrush? It was probably, I think it was a long time ago. - This is how you know you can never leave me, because I promise there are not that many men out there that will just love using the same toothbrushes. You like, I don't-- - We should actually get data on that, and I'm curious who-- - Yeah, actually me. - It wasn't out there. Even knowing this voice, this is my full disclosure. Who would use my toothbrush right now? - I've used it already after you today. No, in your voice. - Wow, to stay up. - Actually, you know, this is love. I started using a different toothbrush 'cause I was like, you don't need this. - No, I go and search for which everyone's wet. And that's the one I'm going to use. - You're like, you can't escape me. - You're like, give me some wet wet. - Exactly. - This is what I want, too. - Exactly, there's microbiome everywhere. I'm assuming that whatever microbiome you got going on right now probably will give me some superpower in the future. - We shared a microbiome, I think, for 15 years now. - Exactly. - That's a long time. - Boom. - Yeah, boom. - Exactly. Okay, so quick promo for JohnGee. Go to JohnGee.com/swap@swaap. I've been loving everything from JohnGee, but what were the pants you got me? - I got you these pants, and I knew you would love them. They are the thermal runner hybrid insulated jogger. And I described them as, we've been using the word sexy a lot, but it applies to these pants as extremely sexy snow pants, which is your jam. As soon as I took them out of the package, I was like, "David is going to love these." - They're amazing. I'm obsessed to the max. I'm going to wear them all winter and all spring and all summer, because I love my legs being warm. - They're thermal, but they're light for what they are, which is nice. And I feel like you're not going to take these pants off. And they're kind of a cross between a tight and a pant, in terms of how they feel. Like you can size up and get more of a pant feel or size down and get more of a tight feel. And I like them. - Obsessed. What's the pant you've been wearing around all the time? - Okay, I've been wearing this everywhere, even though it's like their technical rain pant designed for like UCMV and Hard Rock. I'm like, "Let me wear this pant to the gym." - You're great in them. - They're called the pinnacle three-liter rain pant. And I have them, oh, I actually don't have them here, but they're swishy and they make like a swishy noise. And I kind of enjoy just like walking into the gym with my little swish. - I think they're going to be so good for winter, these rain pants. Like when the ground is a little wet under your feet and you're just taking things up onto yourself, they look so good. They also look a little bit in the light blue color way you have, like something the backstreet boys would have worn in a music video in 1999. - No way. - Did you get that feeling? - I get that feeling now I'm excited to wear them more. Yeah. - Yeah, like just like doing a little synchronized dance to the worst song you've ever heard. - That's basically what I do on a daily basis. - I was dancing, actually I was dancing naked in the locker room of the Lifetime Fitness the other day. And I was like, you know, maybe I should have some pants on for this. - Were you really? - Yeah, I mean, I just like a low-keyed, I just, I didn't even realize I was doing it. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, yeah. - Like just in the clean at the start line of New York City. - Yeah, exactly, but naked in the locker room. - Do you have you done that before? - In the Lifetime Fitness Men's locker room. As much as I respect every when they're my fellow man, I don't think it would be something that would be booked upon kindly. - I mean, for you, you're kind of a little bit of a celebrity in the gym. - Yeah, but I-- - I was like, people would appreciate that. - You think so? - Yeah. - I don't know, should I do it in the sauna? - Yeah, people would appreciate in the sauna. - They were definitely-- - You're also clothed, so the context is different. - Wait, no, I won't be clothed in the sauna anymore. - You're not in the sauna anymore. - Yeah, it's like, it's a co-ed sauna. Also, there's 25% sight wide off on John G. And so the rain pants are a little bit more expensive because they are so nice. But once you apply that sweet 25% and deal through the John G. Collective, it's actually great. - So John G.com/swap. Now we got some great listener corner here, first one. First off, huge congrats on Jesses and Rachel's performances and on David being clear to run. You answered a question of mine on the pod last summer, just so for some context here, I'm gonna summarize it so it's not too identifying. It's actually asked whether they should move, specifically to Colorado, and you can imagine our advice, which is the only problem is not having moved sooner. Go now. Like if you have doubts, just experience the world to find out what happens on the other side. So they've left places with a comfortable group of friends and a good job and all of that. And she said that basically it was the best decision she'd ever made and she just wishes she had done it sooner. Trying to see, what can I read here? - This part here. - Okay, in your response, you said insert other city or insert other place, I don't care where it is. If you find yourself going somewhere and feeling that spark and there's nothing really holding you back, life's about new experiences. And Dan, has this been a new and better experience? Thank you so much for your encouragement. If any listeners out there are wondering whether to make a big, scary change, just a reminder that we only get one shot at this thing and you could be one brave decision away from the life you've been dreaming of, you all are the absolute best. - Gosh, I have goosebumps right now, actually thinking about this and thinking about how much this person changed her life to come and live in Colorado and experience that. And it's just like, if you have the opportunity to do things and to take shots and it doesn't even have to be a big thing of moving city entirely, it's like sign up for the race, apply for the job, write the book. - Ask the personnel. Yeah, you know, like I, as much as, I don't know, it's interesting. I zoom back to when I was really young and I think like I lacked some of the courage and confidence to do this. It's funny that you said earlier that confidence is attractive. I was like, I didn't have almost any confidence. - Actually, you were supremely unconfident when I met you. - Okay, great. - But I'm backing up to the point that you were so authentic though that it was a version of confidence that I was like, this guy will be confident. - Yeah, you're investing in the future. - I was investing. I mean, it took you, we can walk through this. - Wait, wait, wait. - It took you like six dates to kiss. I mean, more than that, we've been in the woods like four different times before you kissed me. - I kissed you for the first time yesterday. I get it. - Yeah, I mean, you used my toothbrush for the first time yesterday. - Exactly. - No, I mean, I see where you're coming from and like I think that it's just tricky in the world to make these changes. And sometimes you need someone that supports you to go for it. And so, hey, if you want support of some big scary decision, message us now. Like, we are the people that give you support in that because if there's anything we have seen from stories like this and ourselves and other people is that the big scary decision is almost always the right one. - That doesn't mean it's going to turn out great. It just means that on the other side of being afraid, you learn that there's nothing to be afraid of. And that's where confidence comes from. - And I think it comes from taking those risks. And also like, you know, sometimes you learn that from failure or from things not working out. And then you're like, you know, it gives you the energy to keep going and to keep pushing forward. And it's like, gosh, that's such a fun process. - It's so fun. You know what else is fun? - What? - Using the same toilet paper you just used. - Yeah, yeah. - We love you all. - Woohoo! - That's amazing.