Mara Brock Akil’s New Novel About Betrayal, Shame & Redemption with Oprah

Mara Brockakeel is bringing her gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel. I like when you say it, say the debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne. This young woman is on the train. She's on the train headed outside the city of New York because she's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test. Because two nights prior, her ex, five years, tells her I have HIV and you need to go get tested. She has to write down all the names of her lovers and at the top of the list, it's her stepfather. It's her stepfather. I was as shocked as she was if not more. What is so interesting for me having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age, nine years old, many of you. Nine for me too? Yeah. Nine years old, being raped at nine and then continuously sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mothers and my cousins, these older men. You know, you just said the story is for everybody, but was a story also for you. Oh, absolutely. So you have written about it in the books through Dion Daphne. Do you mind sharing what actually happened to you? I would share this. Hi there, everybody. Thanks for hanging out with us here on The Oprah Podcast today. Television Luminary and creator, Mara Brockakill. She has written, she has produced, she has directed over 400 episodes. Did you even know that yourself? You know, not until I had to count for the bio. I was like, well, over 400 episodes, that a lot of work of some of the most celebrated shows, Girlfriends, which is having its own resurgence. I know, 25 years, 25 years, and being on Netflix for five years has just garnered a whole new audience. That's right. The 16-year-olds love me, Oprah. It's like Girlfriends is like, you know, the forever of their time, I guess. Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, so there's Girlfriends and there's being Mary Jane and there's the game, y'all, and our latest smash hit series for Netflix forever, forever, forever, forever, which now is, we're going to have a season two. We're going to have a season two. We start rolling cameras tomorrow. Yeah. That is so exciting to hear. Okay, so you were just sharing with me, share with the audience. You're walking down the street, forever has been up on Netflix now for. I think it was about day three or day four, and we were number one. And you know, when you think about it, you're like, number one, you're like, oh, I didn't. We're number one in the world. And there's all these people on the street, you know, in New York is, and I was thinking, they don't know what's me, they don't know that me right now for. They don't know you, and I was like, I'm the number one. And my little girl just was happy. She was, I was so happy. I was walking down the street smiling in New York, and then I think the next day got the call, that the official call. If they were picking it up. But they were picking it up for a season two. That's so wonderful. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was, it was, it was so wonderful. I, I, I celebrate so much, I broke my toe. You broke your toe. Yeah, I just was dancing around my apartment and just in glee. You know, those, those private moments that are, are, are yours. Nothing like a broken toe memory. I have a broken toe moment. And so now, Mara Brockakiel is bringing her gift of storytelling to the world of fiction in her debut novel. I like when you say it. The debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne. Welcome to the T-House, Mara Brockakiel. Thank you for having me. I'm so overjoyed to be here. The fact that you are now diving into this whole new world of writing, or is it, is it a new world of writing going into the novel form? It's funny. I like to say, as Maya would say, I'm an authoress now. But it's, you know, my process is the same in terms of what I latch onto. And sometimes it comes through visions. It comes through visions. I'll see scenes. I'll see, and those are puzzle pieces. Uh-huh. And I just put a puzzle piece here and a puzzle piece here. What was so refreshing about the book was how much I got to explore the interiority. One of the challenges that I have in screenwriting is how do I not say it, not, not say exactly what the character or the plot or the theme is in dialogue. How? Because a lot of human, in my experience, certainly for myself, and my, my experiencing and witnessing of others, we don't really say what we really mean. We are just really, I think that's what was fun about writing Being Mary Jane because she said what she meant. Right. And why we love that character so much. Yes. But I don't believe a lot of us do sometimes. And so how the book gave me just a great, um, just great bandwidth to explore interiority, which in my work in general, that's what I want, but that's the legacy I want to leave, is that I have painted portraits of full humanity. And the having a new canvas, a book, was just, it was extraordinary. And you've been thinking about it for a while. I mean, I think it's a totally different art form that people think it's the same thing. But, you know, a lot of novelists cannot write screenplays. A lot of screenplay writers cannot write a novel. No. I, you know, it's, um, I want to want to honor Chelsea Johns who called me. What's interesting is during COVID, when everybody got a chance to slow down and think, she reached out to me and said, I believe your voice, she's my editor, I believe your voice would translate to the page beautifully. And it's funny enough, I had a story that I wanted to tell for a long time. And I had it in script notes for a while. I had, you know, when I built anything, I have a lot of research, a lot of notes, a lot that you never will see that informs what makes the page. And so I was taking notes on this idea. And I knew it got shelved because who's gonna buy this? And I knew this industry was not going to buy this story, even as prolific as I am. This was going to be a tough sale to sort of like pitch this story as a film. Oh, this is a film. But it is because I think I got to prove it in the book. Okay. But I'm reading this book. I'm like, who's going to play? Who's going to play? I'll discuss that with you later. Okay. Okay. And you said you wrote this novel with the intention of taking the reader through a story that may be familiar, one of isolation, shame, resilience, and the redemptive power of love. So who are you writing the book for? You know, I don't want to be cliche and say everyone, but anybody who wants to unload their shame. Yeah. Anybody who wants to talk about it, think about it, let go of it. That's who the book is for. What I'm excited, though, is as universal as that story is, the specificity of letting Dion, a young black woman in the 90s, who didn't think she had a problem in the world, take us on that journey to be at the tip of the arrow to talk about shame and her to be very brave and vulnerable to share her story. Hopefully, we'll give permission to anyone who cares any level of shame. Okay. So we don't want to get away too many spoilers. I want you to tell us about the characters and the plot with their facing. No spoilers, but I think the reason why it reads like a film is because I think a lot of stories you want to drop them in. So I drop you in the book where this young woman is on the train. On the train. Yeah. And you know. Do that. That's first page. Against for me. I can do that. Yeah. Guide me through this. She's on the train. She's on the train. She's got her look together and she's headed to, she's headed outside the city of New York because she's ashamed that she has to take an HIV test. Because two nights prior after having finally gotten over her man a five years and feeling like he's not coming back. It's the first night, six months after they broke up that she's bringing home a man. And on the same night that she is having sexual relations with him for the first time after being in this long-term relationship. Exactly. There's a knock at the door. Yep. And it's her ex of five years. And he tells her, you know, I have HIV and you need to go get tested. And so the book takes place within the two weeks of that test. And she's on that train and one of the homeworks. So the book takes place within the two weeks because when she goes for the test, they say we can't get the results for two weeks. And I'm like, wow, I remembered that was the 90s. That was the 90s. That was the longest two weeks of anyone's life is to wait for that result. And I took the test back in the day. I was a journalist. I was covering a story on a World AIDS Day and for the Grand Rapids Press. And you know, this is a time when we, when AIDS was a gay man's disease. I'm having a, I'm as a reporter. And I remember this woman walking past me in the hall. And I thought, gosh, she's gorgeous. I shopped her. I always shopped, like I shopped too. I was like, that's cute. That's cute. Let me get to the press conference on time because I'm the, you know, I'm a reporter. So I'm in the back of the room. And she is the the woman who is telling us that she has, she's HIV positive. My jaw hit the floor, hit the floor. And that's what it was. This is 1990 or 1991. If there are 90, I'm 91. Yeah. And I think 91, 'cause it was a time. And I was floored. I mean, literally, it's funny, I was in, I was at Northwestern at the time. And when I got back to school, I took an HIV test. And one of the homeworks you have is that you have to write down all of your sexual relations. Because in case you have, in case you have it, you have to go contact them. That's how we were stopping the disease at that time. Kind of like COVID, kind of reminds you of that. And so, Deon, I thought I'd give that to Deon and where she has to go back, her homework, and she has to write down all the names of her lovers. And so, and at the top of the list, it's her stepfather. It's her stepfather. Whoa! Yes. And when that, okay, so we're gonna stop there in the book, and then the rest of it is unveiled. And then, but that moment, it was her, so her ex, Darren, is in the book, and we discover why and how he got to that place. There's her new lover, he's in the book, and she has to figure out how to tell him-- Oh, a new lover. And then there's a witness. Yeah. There's, you know, one fun fact is, I don't know, we get to experience this anymore, that your paper gets, your paper used to be dropped off in front of your house every day at 3 a.m., 4 a.m., and somebody had to do that. That's right. And so, I've always been fascinated by that person who drops your gets up in the middle of the night, to go drop off of the papers. Just Mars fascination with who these people are, and I decided to make him her witness. This young man who has been dropping the paper at her door every night was there at the time. Yeah. So he is the one that helps her usher through this two weeks, as she turns around and things. And the book is the two weeks, the countdown, waiting on the results. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button. And that way, you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something. But this time, it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening. Thanks for listening. It's time for a quick break. Next, Mara Brockakeel shares how her own childhood trauma taught her to compartmentalize parts of herself. It's also a major theme in her new novel. That's next. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast. I'm with award-winning writer, producer, and now debut novelist Mara Brockakeel. Her page-turning new book is called The Revelation of Dion Daphne. Let's get back to it. So you shared this on Instagram. You said through the process of writing, I earned earth the truth that became a fictional tale. The revelation of Dion Daphne and witnessing my own healing. I experienced a revelation. My hope is that the story offers a revelation for you too. That's what you wrote. I did. And so when I saw that, I said, how were you telling this story? You know, you just said the story is for everybody, but was a story also for you, Mara Brockakeel. I think we're responsible for our own healing. And I have used the power of the pen to not only tell stories and entertain, but also to heal myself. I've put myself in a lot of my characters. Part of my ethos is I tell the truth through fiction. So there's going to be some level of real truth that I'm really-- I'm drawing from. And I'm grateful that I have the ability to learn how to craft it in a way that really becomes-- this micro story of mine becomes a macro of what's impacting a lot of us. And I can find it through the workshopping of the story about who this book is for, why this book now. And there's just a lot of shame, I think, because even with the onset of the camera and the social media, we're hiding parts of ourselves. Absolutely. We're just hiding so much of ourselves. And actually, I think it's the thing that frees us the most. And so the writing of the book was an opportunity for me to free myself. Well, this is-- you know, what is so interesting for me having been a victim of sexual abuse from a very young age, nine years old. Many of you who-- Nine for me too. Yeah. Nine years old, and being raped at nine and then continuously sexually molested over the years by various boyfriends of my mothers and my cousins, these older men. And this is what I think most people don't realize is that when you see these young girls being very promiscuous at a young age, it is usually because the sexual stimulation, the sexual whatever has been turned on in such a way that they're now alert to what that means. I would share this that it was a time in my life. It was from nine to 12 that I was molested. And what was interesting to me at that time-- and this is where the book comes into play-- is how well I managed. And I managed by one of the greatest gifts I've ever had was that's where my relationship with God truly began. That my relationship is rooted in that. And sometimes I even think about if that had never happened, where would my relationship with God be? And so that's in such, well, it happened to me. And God loves me. So I'm supposed to do something with it. And now all these years later, I believe this is my something to do with it. The second thing that I realize is how much you can repurposed energy. I didn't have that language at that time. Yes. But I channeled at that point my escape of my mother's choices. I was in the care of this person because of her. And I know she did it out of love. She was clueless, too. But at that time, I knew that I had to escape. And the best way I knew how to escape is through what my family believes in as education. So I became this amazing student. So I also became that much more undetected. I came further and no one could see. And then I put the good girl image up. I hid around the corners. People can project on to you. And so you can allow that story to be true if they think good of you and whether you, however you feel about yourself in those quiet moments, you can then adopt that ideas of yourself to get you through. So I think my relationship with God, my ability to understand how to alchemize that pain and energy and focus it in my grades and keep graduation and getting to the best school as my escape plan. As so many of us have done. Yes. But here's the interesting thing about the character, Dion, in the book, when she has to go to the clinic, the AIDS clinic and take the test. As you were saying, I didn't know if this was real or not, but that she had to list all of the people she'd ever slept with in her life beginning with the very first person. Which I thought was interesting because I thought it would be like the person you most recently slept with. Yeah, you do. You start from-- it's funny. Yes. And that's what she does. She starts from the last one she had is the guy-- the one I stand. She just had. Well, she knows going one I stand by. And then her boyfriend. And then you get to see all the other ones up there. And then at the top of the list-- And the top of the list is the-- Was her stepfather. Was her stepfather. And in the book, on page 201, the character Dionne says, I knew how to compartmentalize our nights from our days, the same way I learned to separate myself from my body. Ooh. Yeah. I didn't know I was doing that all those years. When you're performing-- I don't know if I'm always performing how disconnected I have been from my own body. I was so-- I'm so compartmentalized. I just-- Recently, my adult life let my food touch. I didn't realize how psychologically separate-- You mean on your plate? Yeah, on my plate. My food never touched. Never. Everyone of those people. I am. OK. And I didn't even know why I was doing that. These examinations of this thing-- I'm like, oh my god, Mar. Are you going to let your food touch? And so after you were sexually molested, did you do this, too? You learned to compartmentalize-- Yes, you learned how to be the different parts of yourself, fragmented, puzzled yourself out, to hide this thing, to hide this-- I was told that if I told anyone I gave this to Dion, if I told anyone that I would be taken away from my mother, and it was just like, you're a child. You don't know what's true or not. And so-- But the compartmentalization of self is in one way the victory of me because just like I talked about the grades, I understood how to keep my focus around my escape plan, if that makes sense. You can hold on to the grade, the, the, the, the, um, the straight A student. What, meanwhile, you know, prepare yourself sometimes for the night. Mentally, physically, um, and it's funny about the, um, about when I say the, uh, the food on my plate, I started to notice my behavior, the other thing that's really interesting about compartmentalization, what in your behavior? Just how I keep things separate, sometimes even friends, sometimes even like how much I try to control every environment so I can survive it. So you're doing that because you couldn't control being arrested by somebody who is so much older than you. You were looking for control in so many different ways. How much older was the person than you? Oh, they were a full grown man. Yeah. Full grown man. I know when you did. I know. I know. Not a teenager, not a 20 something. When I look back at my nine year old self, oh gosh, you see your nine year old self and your little skinny brown legs and your knobby knees and your teeth that don't get it going every different direction. They're not again fully. You just think what a pervert. How could that be? How? Yes, even when my own children became a better age, I took the time to cry those moments out because I thought the same thing. How could anybody touch a child at that age? And of course, we know it happens all the time. All the time. And earlier. Much earlier. Much earlier. And for longer periods of time. But the one other thing I'd like to say about compartmentalization is memory. It's funny in my work now, we're working. I don't even like to call it flashbacks. I'm trying to articulate memory. And memory can also be very dangerous. But one of the things that is trying to get your memory back. So in the book, you'll see that Dion is trying to get her memory back because a lot of times when you compartmentalize, you got to keep things sorted. But one of the things I love about this book too is that one of the things that the reason is called the revelation of Dion Daphne is that once she goes to get the AIDS test, it starts to reveal a lot of the why of the why of the why she's behaved the way she has, why has she had so many lovers, why does she behave the way that she does. And also reveals all these things about family and family connections and why every time her mother's on the phone, oh, your father wants to say hello and why she never wanted to get on the phone and all of that. Yeah, you just start to, and it looks just like, oh, I'm busy, I'm, you know, I'm booked and busy and I've got a promotion in my life. Well, she had to compartmentalize that, yes. We have to take a break. Up next, readers joined the conversation and share how Mara's book mirrored their own lives and struck a chord. Maybe for you too. That's next. Hey, it's Kristi from Lou Eleman. I'm here at the office. And we just dropped some really fun new summer colors in the flow-wise styles. If you're like me, you've loved the flow-wise tank and bra for years. And as of this year, it also comes in a dress and a crop tank. These are made in our buttery, soft, new Lou fabric and my favorite part is the built-in bra. It makes it super easy to wear for yoga or honestly as an everyday basic. You can find flow-wise styles in store or online at louleleman.com. I'm with groundbreaking storyteller, Mara Brockakeel. We're talking about her debut novel, The Revelation of Dion Daphne. And hearing from readers, who share stories on how they overcame shame in their own lives, now we're back to our conversation. So I love to read books at the same time as my daughter, Girl Tando, does, and I gave Tando a copy of this book and she was -- would not shut up. Hi, Tando. I'm so happy. I love that. That's -- having a conversation. You're being able to have a conversation about it. You're like into like, "Can you believe, Dominic? Can you believe?" What is -- okay. Hi Tando. Hi. Hi, Mara. Hi. How are you? So tell us why you like this book so much. Why was it a page turner for you? Page turner. Oh, I literally -- I finished it in 24 hours. Oh my gosh. Okay. Let me pause on that one for a second. Okay. I love that. Thank you. I'm not kidding. Mama, am I joking? You're not joking. I said to you. Just read to page 105. And then you call me and said, "I finished it." I finished it. Oh, that way you were on 105. Okay. Okay. Let me know. Catch up with me. And then I'll continue reading with you. And then she goes, "I finished it." I go, "What?" Thank you so much. Because how could you not? How could you not? I want to know what happens after the 12 days. I got to a point where I was like, "Oh, I'm desperate. I need to know." And if this calls us her to lose her whole -- You know what? First of all, such important themes, because we almost had forgotten that HIV was a thing. It was such a stigma. It was such a -- it was almost a death sentence. I was born in South Africa where there was an era where we lost so many people in our family every single week. There was somebody who has been lost to this illness because of the fear of the shame of the stigma that it was to -- In your own family. Yeah. In my own family. Yeah. In my own family. Because a stigma that it was to even go to the clinic to get those results. Exactly. To even have the courage, the courage she had to write down the list, go back to each person. You know, some people would rather live in absolute silence, die in the quiet night. Because it just takes so much to go to the place where you're revealing to anybody else that you're living with this, even when it's not your fault. This is the thing about Dion, the fact that everything was great. She's fine. By all the measures and metrics or success and the way she was headed, everything was great. She -- you look at her life and the trajectory of it and you think, oh, she's above shame. She's above an experience like this. She's above the words, I am HIV positive. You know? And so, yeah, that overwatching the Superbillion. Bravo for me. Oh, my goodness. I'm enjoying this. Thank you for that. The generosity of the reflection of it. What's interesting to me about my children play video games. There's the main character. We always talk about main character energy. But there are all these non-player characters. I'm always interested in those people. You think that they're just moving along. I'm just successful. Nothing's wrong with me. I'm above shame. Let's pluck them out and let's look at them. Let's open them up. Let's reveal them. Let's understand them. Let's understand their why. That was a journey, not only for me, but it was fun to then incorporate what is happening around us today. And it's interesting about HIV. You did that gas station. You did. Yeah. You did. Anyway, I'm like Dominic. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. What's your question? Tondo. Okay. The thing about this book centers around trust a lot. And trust that revolves around her long-term relationship. Parents. These are trust people you give trust in the grandest measure. You know, her and her partner were doing things like going house shopping. We're talking about rings. We're talking about. So at this point, you know, they're so far in their relationship that it is solid. She trusts. She trusts him without a doubt, without a question. Now, I want to know what it is that we misunderstand about trust because. Wow. With the person that you think you know absolutely everything about you at this point. You know, they're planning on getting married. You're like, I know him. I know this man, you know, and for him to pull out that kind of that surprise on her. I was as shocked as she was if not all the way she was avoiding even having the question. I said, girl, I know. Don't even. Look at him. He has the great all of us. You know, it's interesting trust. I don't think we're really going to get to that level of idyllic trust in others if we're not that to ourselves. And as much as she did all the right things, I don't believe Dion never took stock of what happened. She never faced a storm of her life. I thought he was giving her signals all along. Oh, he, oh, he, I thought he was telling her all along. He was, but we don't want to. I don't feel that she should have been putting all of that trust in him. Because he was signaling signaling to her that he was not the one, but you see what you want to see. But you see what you want to see. And this is what you and I were discussing. But she had this ideal of who he was and she saw herself in the picket fence in the house. Yes, she was, she was, she was trusting the picture in her head, not the person in front of her. That's right. It's so many women do there. They're living to the possibility. Oh, they want. There's, he's got the Ivy League pedigree. He's got all of that going and they're just living to the possibility. They have any. Yes, it's in the reality. Absolutely. I feel like that is, that is, that is, that is then that is now that is happening. And so that's allowed. for Dion or me to have a conversation with you right now, because to your point, are we, how do we trust? And that would be the question then. How do we do that? How do we, how do we see that? If we're looking for something outside of ourselves all the time. - And isn't this a movie? Didn't we say this, this is a movie? Come on. - It's a movie. - It's a movie. - Let's test it right away. - Ted. - Come on. - Ted, come on. This is it. We're reading the book. We need the movie by next year. - Thank you so much. - Yes. - It's a movie. - I can watch my day. - Get to it. - I said it's definitely a movie, and I'm submitting a take for it. - Oh! - I'm submitting a take. - Way to go. - Can you look amazing? - All right. - Thanks, Donald. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. Okay. So Marianne is joining us from Florida. Marianne, what was your take away from the book? - Hi. - Hi. - How are you? - I'm good. And this also was a page turner. I actually stayed up until like 2 a.m. 'Cause I couldn't put it down. - Wow. - And I was crying 'cause I actually felt really seen and heard, even if it is a fiction. Like I related so much to all the details. For me, I was sexually abused at 10. I related to protecting my sister. I related to the eldest daughter, like also with the character. And with what you said, like high performing. So you don't look like the typical, what people think. It's a victim of sexual abuse. And also the symptoms of like your body keeping the score and feeling it, like I related to her rage that would come out sometimes. And she like, when she started unpacking, she realized a lot of her actions and how she had memory blocks were all part of it. So like, yeah, I related so much. And my takeaways were you never really know. Someone can have a picture of perfect life. And oftentimes I look back. I think that I'm so high performing because of my trauma. And I didn't realize that until I actually OD'd and had a near death experience. That was the catalyst for finally unpacking everything. So my takeaway was you just never know. And there probably so many more women, especially women of color who are in silence, yet don't look the part. Don't look the part. I think most of us don't look the part because of that thing that that that Mara writes about about compartmentalizing, specifically if you've hidden it from everybody, you know, the people who don't tell have to compartmentalize in order to survive. And that becomes a part of our survival skills. And the longer you don't tell, the longer you feel is though you don't have a right to tell. And then it's like, OK, well, maybe your memory is wrong, and which kind of comes up in the book. First of all, I just want to say thank you for sharing. And I'm sorry. I think sharing our story allows us to say, I'm sorry that you didn't deserve that. But I'm also proud of you for getting yourself through that. And I think I would say that you probably facing your storm is the way through. And that's the takeaway that I feel. The release is through it. It's not avoiding it. But I like what you said at the beginning, that reading the book-- and I think this is what's going to happen-- and this is where Mara has done with her work for all of the storytelling that she's done throughout the years-- makes me want to tear up-- is that you make us feel seen. And that's what you said at the beginning of this conversation, that reading this book you feel seen, she has the same feelings that you have. She has the same emotional reactions that you've had, and what that does to all of us. When you read a book and you say, wow, I am not alone. I am not alone. I'm not alone. And actually, my question would be, what else do we share to women who are still in that silence? Like who older? Because I came out older too. And I feel like Dion had all the things and she was older to the women who are still kind of living that picture perfect life. I think that's a great question. Wow, that is a great question. I think I would say to own your story even now. That is never too late to own the story. To own the story. And I think that, for me, my relationship with God, which we talked about, it gave me permission. If I believe that God has everything for me, then you want me to do something with this. And maybe even just sharing your story with one other person, or I guess my case, alchemizing my own pain to share it with the world, it gives permission for other people to share theirs. Like you sharing your story with me. It makes me feel not so nervous. I'm still telling my story. You're a braver than me. You're telling your full story as who you are. I get to take my pain and alchemize it through a character. But it gives us permission to share so we can let the weight off of us. And then I think we can begin to know who we are. Because some of what we've gone through will be who we are, really. You know what I'm saying? And what parts of that experience are we going to want to adopt? That says, okay, that's me. That's who I am. And then what are the parts that, I don't like that. And my body, now that I have my body back in sync with my heart, mind and spirit, it tells me we don't like that. And now I have to find the voice, the silence that I used that kept me trapped. Use that voice to start to speak up. And I say start to do it in simple places. I mean, I literally start small. They didn't get your order right on your coffee. Send it back. They didn't, you know, you asked for something. They didn't give it to you. Have a conversation. I'm even at work. They're learning to speak up in small ways for yourself. Start small. You don't have to start with the big things is what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. And then you'll get to the big things. So thank you so much, Maryann. Thank you so much for sharing with us today. Thank you. Really. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. Tell your friends about it. Don't you think the book is a movie? It is. Thank you. Thank you so much, Maryann. Thank you for reading it. Thank you. After a quick break, Mara Brockakiel explains that her life's work is to help people feel seen because she's known as so many people hide parts of themselves. Maybe that resonates with you. We're back with television creator. And now first time novelist, Mara Brockakiel. Philip also read it. Philip read it. And read the book. And Philip, hi. You have a comment and a question for Mara. Hi, Philip. Hey, Mara. Hi, Oprah. How are you doing? Hi, Philip. Good to see you. Good to see you too. The book is a banger. Just wanted to let you know that. It's absolutely incredible. Like, the whole time I'm reading it, I'm like, I just want, I want a short series. Like, I don't want to, I would love a movie, but a short series wouldn't be incredible. The limited series, huh? A limited series. Yes, yes. A limited series would be really, really good because I want multiple episodes. Okay. Yeah, you're right. I would actually like to spend more time with the mom and dad and the mom and the stepfather and the home and that whole life and all of her little friends and everybody coming. And I would, I would, I would. You don't, you don't, you want to be limited now. I want multi-part series. Sorry, Ted. Yeah, absolutely. Get the movie, multi-part series. Limited, limited series. Okay. Yeah, we want, we want to go on the awards circuit. Okay. A limited series. Okay. Okay. What did you want to say? Say, Phillip. Well, I really resonated with the character, Darren. I was molested as a child. That led me to really have issues with my sexuality and accepting the fact that I was gay. So then I ended up joining a gay conversion therapy church in college. How did that work out for you? How? It was. Wow. Terrible. Terrible. Like I just, I. You saw top of the. Right. And I got, I got married at 21. And I'm 40 now. I just came out of the closet last year. Oh, wow. And just got. Yeah, just got a divorce this past year. Wow. So. You married. You married. You married. I ended up marrying the, the leader of the gay conversion. The leader of the gay conversion therapy church's sister. Oh, wow. Yes. Wow. And did you do that because you thought you were gay converted or you did it to try to create another facade? No, I didn't do it to create a facade like a beard. She was, she had met Mike's boyfriends. She knew I went through the program. And, you know, she saw me go from wearing flat front. She knows from express to, you know, baggy clothes. And, you know, assume that I had been converted into a straight man. So she was really under that programming as well. So. Did you believe you had been converted into a straight man? Yes. I was honestly believed I was. I honestly believed I was converted. Now in retrospect, I realize that my sexuality is just on a spectrum and that I do have some attraction to women. But I, unfortunately, I didn't have the luxury to kind of find that out myself because I was molested by a man. And so in college, you know, maybe I would have explored women eventually. So I think that's why the marriage lasted as long as it did because I did have a genuine sexual attraction to her as well. But I do skew, you know, towards men. I prefer men. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you, so what did you think is a daring character? So I empathized with him because since I wasn't, since I wasn't being completely deceptive, because I believe that I was healed and freed and, you know, I went through the program. I wonder, like, did you want to express yourself? that duality with Darren, as someone who, I mean, he was, I don't want to give away the story, but, you know, thankfully I didn't end up with HIV, and thankfully I didn't pass it on to my partner, because I did end up being unfaithful to my wife. I wonder what is the lens that you see Darren through? I see the lens through not being honest about who we are and what we want. And I think for anyone to come down to honesty, you know, you can be with someone for five years, know they want to be married, know they want to spend the rest of their life with you, want to build a life with you, and you dangle little things in front of them, because you want those things too, but he didn't want her. And I think that's a lot of investment of time, especially in the 90s, when every other article for women was your biological clock, you better get that guy. You know, at the same time, they're telling us to be, you know, independent. So she's, she's, she's on a quest to find her man, so she can have that baby build that life, and he didn't want that from her. And I think, I think through the lens of, but then I've got a shout out, you know, Medell School of Journalism. Why? And for me, I got to explore why are some of these stories that we hear and multitude, why the man, how many stories we've heard about women saying that he took the best years of my life, and he, I've waited five years, and I've done this, and I've done that. Well, I wanted to put my lens on his why and explore what a portrait of a black man would be, could be in 1991 in New York for the successful, successful black woman who's, you know, doing her thing at, you know, and he's doing his thing and they look like the perfect couple and everybody projects on to the perfect couple, you know, and so I wanted to pull that couple apart, and I wanted us to see who they were and be reflection not only of, of then, but still now. Well, I'm glad you saw pieces of yourself in this story. You believe it should be a movie, too. No, no, limited series, limited series. Limited part series, yes, limited part series, we can't wait for it, we can't wait. Yes, thank you so much, thanks Philip, thank you so much Philip. Yeah, so this is what I, so deeply appreciate you is that you have taken this power of storytelling and helped us to see ourselves in ways that reflect back to us our, our shames and our, and our fantasies, but also our joys because in the end we feel her joy and her resolution to, to be more of herself. Thank you. And I think that's what watching all of your work has done for us. Thank you. I think, I, I like to think I do portrait work and we really do a portrait you need to see the whole person and I think I know I've been endeavoring to paint the fullest humanity of our, of us, I feel like if America is our home, right, and we are children in this home. Our image has been so distorted if at all on the wall, so imagine living in a home and all the pictures on the wall are mostly of white and male or certainly not you. And when you, when your picture is up there, it's, it's blurred, distorted. So for me, my, my drive is to try to paint the fullness of us because we deserve our full humanity. We, we deserve our light and our dark. And for us to figure out how to evolve on our own, our, and, and, and, and then the safety of others, my first being in the safety of ourselves. And so then it brings, and a lot of these things are imparted on us and most of us spend a lot of our lives avoiding it. And then, you know, like Philip, like Marion, just at 40, just at whatever age start to open up. Imagine if we can start to think about that at a younger age or prevent it number one. But maybe if we start to think about the repair that has to happen earlier, how much more life and life force that's in us, that we can actually get to the purpose of why we're here in the first place. And so the portrait work is to see fully because one scene, I have a thesis that if we're seen, and we come out of the womb, mommy, daddy, see me and it goes to, it goes to schools, it goes to coaches, it goes to theater and plays and media and you're never seen, then you never have to show up. So if I, and this compliment you give me over, I thank you because if people can be seen, then they'll, then you're aware that you're seen, then why am I here? Is the next question. When am I here for? When am I supposed to do? And God will whisper. I thank you for showing us our stories through your words. Thank you. Thank you. Mara Brockakeel. It's her first novel. It's called "The Revelation of Dion Daphne." And it's available now wherever you want to buy your books. Tondo, Marianne and Philip, thanks for reading with us and for your questions. And thank you, dear listeners, for hanging out with us. See you next time. Go well. My daughter, girl Tondo puts it, "The Revelation of Dion Daphne is a page churner. You'll want to talk about it with your friends this summer. You can buy it right now. Just scan the QR code on your screen. Enjoy. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it. If you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast, it's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. So thank you for watching and listening.