Mangione Episode 5: "The Gambit"

Hi, this is Brian Buckmeyer here with the final episode of Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni. It's the last episode we'll be sharing here, but if you want to follow the trial and more legal coverage from ABC News, you can check out the podcast Burn and Proof Daily. Every Monday through Friday, you'll hear the latest coverage from ABC News on the trials America can't stop talking about. You might even hear my voice from time to time. Find Burn and Proof Daily on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or your favorite podcast app. And remember, you can listen to this podcast, add free, and unlock access to so much more from 2020 by subscribing to 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts. Click the link in the description to learn more. Now, here's the final episode of Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. So far, on Burn and Proof, Luigi Mangioni, we've been feeling you in on everything that has unfolded since December 4th, 2024, when Brian Thompson was murdered on a Manhattan sidewalk. We've talked about the manhunt for the shooter, who Brian Thompson was, who Luigi Mangioni is, and why this case has captivated so much attention. When we started the series, Mangioni's state trial for the murder of Brian Thompson was supposed to begin tomorrow, but so much has changed since then. This is a case that has a lot of moving pieces, and just keeps evolving. In this episode, we're going to get into where things stand in Mangioni's case now and how we got here. For that, we're talking with ABC Newsies chief investigative correspondent Aaron Kotersky, who you've heard over this whole series. He's been following his case from the very start and has attended many of Mangioni's court hearings. Aaron is always welcome back. It's always a pleasure to have you. Good to be here, right? Let's start with what happened in Mangioni's federal case. In that case, he was initially charged with murder through the use of a firearm, a firearms offense, and two counts of stocking. The murder charge made him eligible for the death penalty, but that and the firearms offense were dismissed by a judge months ago. The judge found in the prosecution did not prove certain elements of the crimes that carry the death penalty, and when that happens, the charge gets dismissed. So when Mangioni entered the courtroom in mid-August, he was only facing two counts of stocking and he pled guilty to those. You were in the courtroom? What else happened during the plea hearing? The most interesting thing that happened other than Mangioni's guilty plea, Brian, was his own explanation of exactly what he did because the judge needed to be convinced that he was pleading guilty because he is, in fact, guilty and wasn't coerced or wasn't thinking that there was some other motive for what went on. So he ended up seated reading a statement that occurred when the judge asked him exactly what he did. And he said, "I shot Mr. Thompson," meaning Brian Thompson, the CEO of UnitedHealthcare, and he said that he had done so after he learned that UnitedHealthcare would be holding its annual investor conference in New York in December of 2024. He said he traveled with the intent to shoot Brian Thompson. "I shot Mr. Thompson in Manhattan, Mangioni," said, and he died. How would you describe Mangioni as he pled guilty? I would describe him as rather passive. There was no contrition, there was no remorse, there was no particular anguish, he didn't fall on the sword, so to speak, Brian, but he, matter of fact, he said that he came to New York to kill Brian Thompson and did it. And that was it. And for the first time we saw Thompson's widow in court for a proceeding, she was crying as all this went on and had to be comforted by another relative who was seated next to her. The courtroom was hushed, Mangioni just sat there in beige, jail garb, but there was something matter of fact about it. So if he felt any remorse, or if he felt any kind of contrition, it did not show when he was delivering his statement to the judge. And I would say that's pretty par for the course when it comes to an initial plea. There's a sentencing and that may come forward in the way that he might talk about this now crime no longer alleged. And there's still the state case hanging over his head. But Aaron, as you're in courtroom, what was the energy like, or I guess the vibe? There's always some anticipation when Luigi Mangioni steps into the room. Many people kind of lean forward or crane their neck to get a good look at him because he has become a defendant who's the subject of fascination. But there were notably fewer of his supporters outside the courthouse. He had a few rows of supporters who have showed up to just about every hearing, but I was struck that at this moment, as he's pleading guilty, as he's admitting that he killed Brian Thompson. He was largely alone there with his attorneys, but no family members, very few supporters. And Luigi Mangioni simply gave his statement and then returned into the custody of the US marshals. I think that for a lot of people, this guilty plea was a surprise. I mean, think about it, right? Just days before Mangioni's and attorneys were in a state court discussing matters related to that trial. We were all gearing up for a potential early September trial and state court. You've covered this case closely for nearly two years. Were you surprised at all that a plea was taken in federal court? I think it had to be taken. Brian, you know the evidence in the case. It was overwhelming. Luigi Mangioni is on video killing someone, shooting him in the back. It turns out there were eyewitnesses to the crime, as prosecutors mentioned in court prior to the actual recitation of the guilty plea. They had a lot of physical evidence that connected Mangioni to the crime, including the murder weapon pulled from his backpack, notes that prosecutors took to be a motive. All of that was going to be brought to bear, and it exposed him to the potential of a life sentence in a state prison in New York. That was something from the outset that his attorneys had sought to avoid. By pleading guilty, in federal court, they're hoping for a slightly different outcome. They know he's going to be incarcerated, but they perhaps prefer incarceration in a federal prison and maybe for not as long as life. For the record, I think everything you said was absolutely correct, but just to be devil's advocate, because I'm curious as to what you think. There's a there's a poet by the name of Sean Corey Carter. He used to say something about you didn't pass the bar, but you know a little bit. And I think I would put you in that category, Aaron. Why not just go to trial and and hope that a Mangioni fan or someone who has an axe to grind with the healthcare insurance companies is on there. And you get a hung jury or you get some jury nullification. Why not that rather than the strategy you've just put forward? I think two reasons. One, the evidentiary hearing that Judge Gregory Carroll presided over in state court allowed most of the evidence to be put before a jury. So the defense was hoping to keep some statements that he made to Pennsylvania corrections officers, some items pulled from his backpack upon arrest at the McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. They wanted to keep all of that out and they were largely unsuccessful. And I think the other thing, the idea of jury nullification or or putting the healthcare system on trial, the judge was keenly aware of that possibility. And you had to imagine that prosecutors on jury selection would be well tuned to any attempt to keep a questionable panelist on the jury. That strategy in the defense's view probably could not succeed or at least they didn't want to take the risk. We've got to take a quick break. And when we come back, we'll talk about where things stand in Mangione's state case. Today I want to tell you about an exciting new deal from our friends at CozyEarth. Take a moment and close your eyes and think back to the best night of sleep you ever had. 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Right now, go to abcsecretsavings.com/2020 for 50% off the best bedding you'll ever sleep on. That's abcsecretsavings.com/2020 Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Get a new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Maybe it's Mavily. From the dope game to the rap game. Right after Luigi Mangione's federal plea hearing, his attorneys follow the motions to dismiss his state charges, including second-degree murder on double jeopardy grounds. Double jeopardy is a constitutional protection found in the Fifth Amendment. It protects people from being prosecuted for the same crime twice. It's very important to say crime, and not actions, because that's the distinction the law makes. Then every state, like with many criminal laws, has the ability to create further protections that go beyond the federal protections of double jeopardy. New York, being one of the more litigious states, because we have the Southern District of New York and Eastern District of New York, where there are a lot of state and federal overlap, go a little bit further in their protections, and they give greater definitions as to why the state and federal government cannot prosecute you for the same crime twice. Here's Luigi Mangione's defense attorney, Karen Friedman Agnifolo, speaking about double jeopardy at a press conference after Mangione's plea hearing. New York law does not permit a person to be prosecuted and punished twice for the exact same crime under a statute that governs successive prosecutions. It's also known as the double jeopardy law. Today's guilty plea triggers the statute, and we just filed our motion in State Court, meaning why the state charges must be dismissed under New York's double jeopardy protections. Aaron, as I read the New York State double jeopardy law, and the motion that was filed by the defense of Luigi Mangione, I zero in on about 15 words that I think is going to come down to why the defense either wins or loses, and I'm curious as to what your response is. It's I understand that their strongest argument is to say that the stalking resulting in death in federal court, and the murder charge in the second degree in state court are too similar, and that's why it's double jeopardy. The language and the law is that the statutory provisions defining such offenses are designated or designed, sorry, to prevent very different kinds of harm or evil. I could see the state saying stalking and resulting in death and murder in the second degree are two different evils. And therefore both jurisdictions have the right to prosecute, but the defense is saying the opposite. The defense is saying stalking resulting in death and murder in the second degree are the same type of evil and therefore is double jeopardy. Where do you think the judge falls on that particular issue, which I think is the heart of the argument here? I think it depends on whether the judge follows the technical definitions of the law or whether he follows more the substance of the case. Because both cases, the defense has said rely on the same set of facts. There are no differentiating facts between the stalking resulting in death and the murder case in the state court. So if the judge believes that it's largely the same case, he may see a distinction without a difference. Even though, as you say, Brian, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office would argue that these are two separate harms that the cases are meant to address two separate things, the stalking and the murder of Brian Thompson. The Manhattan District Attorney's Office put out a statement after the defense filed their double jeopardy motion saying, quote, "While federal sentencing is pending, we are prepared to litigate the defense motions." The Manhattan District Attorney's Office remains committed to seeking justice for Mr. Thompson and his family. What have you heard from the Manhattan DA's perspective on this double jeopardy argument from the defense? The Manhattan DA's office knew that the defense's best shot at a quiddle was trying to put the whole healthcare system on trial, was trying to distract from the main actions, which are on video of Luigi Mangioni, and so they were going to be aware of this. The Manhattan DA's office also was mindful that a man is dead and a family is expecting justice, and so they wanted to push forward to make sure justice is done on behalf of Brian Thompson's family. Sources close to the Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg know that there's going to be a calculation in that office. If the sentence is stiff enough, the family may not want to go through the pain of a state trial, and maybe they back off the DA's office, even though in that statement expressed a desire to go forward with a state trial, Brian, they well know that if there's a stiff sentence, there just may not be a need to put anyone through it. There's a desire on the part of prosecutors to never see Luigi Mangioni walking free, so they're going to be tuned to the sentencing hearing and judge Garnett's decision in the federal case before deciding how hard to push for a trial on the state side. When will we know what's going to come next in the state case? There are two important dates, and they both occur toward the end of the year. The first is an appearance before Judge Gregory Carroll, where he will ostensibly entertain the defense motion to dismiss the state case, and then the sentencing hearing in the federal case for Luigi Mangioni, and that's going to be key, because it will help prosecutors decide how hard to push, and so both of those dates are key, and it may give us an understanding about the next steps for Luigi Mangioni and whether he actually goes on trial, and if he doesn't Brian, as much as he has admitted, his guilt, now through his guilty plea, it will be striking that he will never be convicted of murder of Brian Thompson. Right, because what Mangioni pleaded guilty to is stalking and connection with the murder of Brian Thompson, not murder itself. That's what he's charged with in the state case. In mid-December, Mangioni will be back in federal court to be sentenced for those two counts of stalking. We'll talk about what might happen there, after a quick break. 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From ABC Audio in 2020, this is what happened to the McStays. Follow what happened to the McStays for weekly episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Or if you can't wait, the entire series is streaming now, at free for subscribers to 2022 Crime Plus. Find 2022 Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. This is what's called an open plea and not a plea deal. And just for those who are not in the court system, a plea deal is a deal. where the prosecutor is saying, "Hey, we may reduce the charge." charges, or you don't have to plead guilty to the most serious crime, you complete guilty to a less serious crime, and we can agree to a certain amount of years in prison. But with an open plea, the defendant just pleads guilty to the entire indictment or the entire charges, and then, in essence, turns to the judge, hoping for a good sentence or a good deal. What can we take away from the fact, Aaron, that this was not part of a plea deal, but instead was an open plea by Luigi Mangione. There's no guarantee what Mangione's sentence is going to be, and Judge Margaret Garnett will be the ultimate decider, but there was nothing promised. There is no particular expectation. He could face up to life in prison, if in fact, Judge Garnett decides, although typically on a stocking case, a defendant might expect far less than that. But this is a unique circumstance, because Mangione said that he came to New York with the intent to kill Brian Thompson and then did it. He meant to kill, and he did kill Brian Thompson that day in December 2024. Yeah. And when it comes to the federal system, we have what's called federal sentencing guidelines and from what I understand, the defense has already calculated or guessed at what that range would be, and from their filings, it's something like 24 to 30 years and five months is what they believe his range may be. And that's the gambit here. That's why the defense sought to plead out the federal case and do it first. The whole hope is that not only will Mangione serve his time in a federal prison instead of a state prison. It's generally thought federal prison conditions may be a little better, a little less violent, a little less crowded than state prisons. The defense is also hoping to convince the judge for something other than a life sentence. If it's 20 to 30 years, even a little more than that, Mangione would still be eligible for release when he's a grown man, but still with some life left in him. And that's something that state prosecutors in Manhattan are going to be watching very closely. You see, if it's anything other than a severe sentence, you can bet the Manhattan district attorney's office is going to push to still put Mangione on trial in state court. What kind of influence, if any, could state prosecutors have in the federal case, especially if the state charges are dismissed? There's no real mechanism for the Manhattan district attorney's office to weigh in, but they could try to send a letter to the judge. They could try to discuss the case with their federal counterparts to make sure their views are reflected in whatever statements the federal prosecutors make during the sentencing hearing. There's an interest that the Manhattan DA's office has promised to pursue to make sure the federal judge, Margaret Garnett, understands where the DA's office is coming from and why they felt like justice needed to be served. The assistant district attorney, handling the case trial side of him, has said that he has been in constant communication with Brian Thompson's family and wants to pursue justice on their behalf. And the DA's office has also said this was a murder on our street in our borough. And they want to also send a message that it's just not acceptable. So there's also an interest there that the Manhattan DA's office wants to make clear. And I think Brian, in no small way, the DA's office felt like they did all the work. It's their evidence, along with the NYPD. The Fed's just sort of snatched Mangioni upon his rather cinematic return aboard a helicopter to New York City. And I not that they're looking for credit necessarily, but they wanted their day in court because they were confident that the evidence they amassed would have made a strong case. Looking now a little down the road to December, we're talking sentencing and federal court. What should we expect Mangioni's federal sentencing hearing to be like? I think it should be like any sentencing hearing in federal court. There will be the opportunity for victims to be heard, who's the victim in this case. Well, we know it's Brian Thompson, does his family want to make a statement? Does the company that he worked for as chief executive want to make a statement? Prosecutors will have a chance to argue, defense attorneys will have a chance to argue. And Mangioni himself will have the chance to address the court and perhaps in his own words explain why he deserves a more lenient sentence. That's his choice. He doesn't have to, but that would be his shot. And it would also give him the chance if he so chooses Brian to be a little bit more expansive than he has been allowed to be in court where he has asked very specific questions and must give specific answers. We've heard him give outbursts on his arrest in court once he stood up and talked about double jeopardy. This would be his chance if he feels that he needs to make a statement about the killing of Brian Thompson, it would be his chance to do so at sentencing. A couple of months ago, Mangioni's defense attorneys said they plan to use a psychiatric defense in his state case. I believe it's specifically the extreme emotional disturbance defense, but we saw them raise that potential psychiatric defense and then later withdraw it. Do you think there's a chance that Mangioni's attorneys will bring up this mental health or mental state argument during the federal sentencing hearing? They could try and they could argue that that's a reason for leniency here. But there are no psychiatric records in evidence or on offer that would affirm the defense notion of Luigi Mangioni's mental state. We don't know. And if the case doesn't get to trial, we may never know. But I think on sentencing, for sure, the defense may try to bring that up. In practicing myself in the Southern District of New York and the Eastern District of New York, I am pretty familiar with what the factors are that the judge is going to consider. And some of the big ones, in my opinion, could cut both ways and maybe harm Mangioni more than help him. The judge has to consider certain factors, right? The idea being that the sentence must be sufficient, but not greater than necessary to comply with certain purposes within federal law. You've got to look at things like the nature and circumstances of the offense and the history and characteristics of the defendant. So how bad is the crime? Does this person have a criminal record or not? They also look at the seriousness of the offense, the adequacy to deter criminal conduct. So to stop other people from committing this crime in the future, they also look at the ability to protect the public from further crimes from this specific defendant. And they also look at things that I don't think apply to Mangioni like the need for educational or vocational training or medical care or other correctional treatment, but looking at all those factors and looking at this case and looking at the arguments, are you seeing anything that would give us any indication as to what kind of sentence Mangioni could get in federal court? Brian, it's, as you know, impossible to guess what a judge is going to do. But in addition to all those factors, just look at the series of events. This is someone who admitted he traveled to New York with the intent to kill somebody and actually did it. I don't know a judge in America who's going to take that lightly. And then there's Mangioni himself. This is a high school valedictorian, a son of privilege, somebody with every opportunity to travel the world. And what does he choose to do? He chooses to travel to New York with a gun and a silencer that he made using a 3D printer. He put his education, he put his privilege to work, to shoot somebody on the streets of Manhattan. It may not bode well for Mangioni. I don't see a world in which judge Garnett goes easy on Luigi Mangioni. They're going to do everything they can. The defense is to try to convince her for a lenient sentence to perhaps offer his back pain or his prolonged exposure to the health insurance system, even though UnitedHealthcare was not his provider, they could offer up a number of potentially mitigating factors. But he admitted that he intentionally killed someone on the street in Manhattan. It was a shocking crime that shocked the city. And there's an expectation that prosecutors have that the judge is not going to go easy on him. Aaron, from December of 2024, we've been covering this case, you more than anyone else I know. So reflecting back on everything that you've covered related to the murder of Brian Thompson, what stands out to you the most about this story as we approach what could be the end of a saga that is the death of Brian Thompson and the case of Luigi Mangioni. It has to be the way the case is coming to an end, Brian, all of the facts, all of the evidence way against Luigi Mangioni. You can put the health care system on trial, you can blame your back pain. But at the end of the day, you're on video killing a guy. And yet his defense did a job in perhaps helping him avoid a life sentence in a state prison. And so it will be left to others to decide whether this is justice for Brian Thomson's family or whether there's something more to be desired here and whether in effect, Manjioni did not fully go through the system as intended. I think his lawyers did a job for him, right? I mean, I don't know. At the end of the day, he was facing the death penalty and now we are talking about, does he get out within his lifetime or not? As a defense attorney, that's already a win, in some sense. With those set of facts, absolutely. Well, Aaron, I always look forward to these conversations on these podcasts. I know it's hard to get you because you're doing 20 things at once, so again, thank you for joining us and for your excellent reporting on this case and all cases that you cover. Thank you, Brian. Burning Approve, Luigi Manjioni is a production of ABC Audio, hosted by me, Brian Buckmeyer. Produced by Vika Aronson and Audrey Maustek. Our lead producer is Camille Peterson, edited by Tracy Samuelson, music by Evan Viola, mixing by Bob Mallory. Special thanks to Katie Dendas, Sasha Aslanian, Michelle Margulis, Tanya Simpson, Josh Mark Cohen, Peter Harlambus, and Jared Kovsky. Josh Kohan is our director of podcast programming. Aiman McNiff is our executive producer. Thanks for listening to Burning Approve, Luigi Manjioni. That's the end of this podcast, but if you want to follow the trial and more legal coverage from ABC News, I recommend you check out the podcast, Burning Approve Daily. Every Monday through Friday, you'll hear the latest coverage on the trials America can't stop talking about. You might even hear my voice and errands from time to time. Find Burning Approve Daily on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts, or listen ad-free on Apple Podcasts when you subscribe to 2020 True Crime Plus. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. I want to hire a private investigator, some folks in the best. ABC September 15, TV's hottest PI is back. Are you sure you're ready to take on a serial killer? It's like a dozen more likely explanations other than serial killer. All right, maybe none of it does. 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