Mangione Episode 4: "Free Luigi"

Hi, this is Brian Buckmeyer, here with another weekly episode of my new podcast from ABC Audio and 2020, Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. Remember, you can also listen ad-free by subscribing to 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts. Click the link in the description to learn more. Now, here's the next episode of Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. How do you want to split it? Actually, dinner's on me. Okay, big money. Well, I got a Venmo balance that I can spend with my Venmo debit MasterCard, so. Well, I Venmo'd you three times last week, so it's kind of on me, actually. Yeah, you send it, I spend it. Did my money get, like, reincarnated? Yeah, it's chicken shawarma. Want it back? I can't believe you, like, ate my Venmo. Spend your balance instantly with the Venmo debit card. No monthly fee or minimum balance. Venmo balance account required to get a card and use a balance. A Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. The defendant committed this murder, in an attempt to draw public attention to his dislike of certain businesses. This is Jamie McDonald, the United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York. He's speaking at a press conference after Luigi Mangione pleaded guilty in a federal court to two counts of stalking and admitted to shooting Brian Thompson. We live in a civilized society governed by the rule of law. We debate, we disagree, we protest. We do not. Commit murder. No grievance, political belief, or ideological cause can ever justify murder. There can be no celebrity in assassination. Brian Thompson's family, UnitedHealthcare executives, and law enforcement attended the plea hearing. And so did two rows of Luigi Mangione supporters. Any person who celebrates, encourages, or excuses actions like these is fundamentally wrong. Through all the changes in this case, going all the way back to December 2024, one thing has been consistent. Luigi Mangione has vocal supporters. And many of them see him as emblematic of rage against the U.S. healthcare system. I was really proud that even when admitting his guilt, Luigi was able to find a way to still put the spotlight. On an industry that is so unfair. How did the killing of one man become a flashpoint for widespread frustration with America's healthcare industry? From ABC Audio in 2020, I'm Brian Buckmeyer, an attorney and ABC News legal analyst. And this is Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. Episode 4, Free Luigi. In a quiet part of Baltimore, in a one-story brick shopping center, there's a pizza shop called Vito's Pizza. We have a good reputation of good pizza. And we have a sub, pasta, a little bit of Italian menus. That's Maria Montova. She and her husband, Giuseppe, who are in their 60s, own Vito's Pizza. We spoke to them months before Luigi Mangione's guilty plea, and admission. The Montovas say that back when Mangione was a student at Gilman in the 2010s, Vito's would get a lot of Gilman boys ordering pizzas and subs. In December 2024, the Montovas heard Luigi Mangione was the police's number one suspect in Brian Thompson's murder. Maria says that a few days after the news broke, her daughter came across a meme online, a part-illustrated, part-AI-generated image of St. Luigi. He said, Maria's daughter printed out the picture and showed it to her parents. They all got a kick out of it at the time. To the Montovas, who are Roman Catholic, it was funny. Giuseppe asked his daughter to make a couple copies. She did, and he hung one up in the storefront right above the register. A local journalist posted about St. Luigi at Vito's. And then from there started, all the dramas, I would say. Social media seized on the post, with users commenting, liking, and sharing it. It generated over 6 million views. And quickly, the online frenzy spilled out into the real world. At the time, Maria said the shop was flooded with customers who wanted to support the business and, according to her, make sure that picture of St. Luigi stayed up. Though, keep in mind, this was long before Mangione admitted to the shootout. But there was also a backlash online and in person. Maria said some people accused the pizza shop of supporting Mangione, who at the time was still a suspect. It started to be a political, so-political thing, which there was no intention about that. And this is just one example of the explosion of online commentaries surrounding Brian Thompson's murder. Gia Tolentino, a staff writer, said, The reaction to Thompson's killing indicated at the time that many Americans believe the private healthcare system is a, quote, "large-scale purveyor of death." The CEO of a giant corporation gets shot on the street and people celebrate it as if a violent, murderous dictator had just been taken out by a military team. There were some messages expressing sympathy for Brian Thompson and his loved ones. But there were also jokes. Sarcasm and laughter. Lots of laughter. In fact, tens of thousands of social media accounts reacted with a laugh on Facebook to United Health Group's official announcement of Brian's death. Folk artist Jesse Wells dropped a John Prine-style protest song less than a week after the killing, with lyrics that took aim at United Healthcare. There ain't no you in United Health There ain't no me in the car In the company they know us In the private trust There's hardly humans in humanity Of course, many followers of the case also commented on Mangione's looks. They talked about the clothes he wore to court and the music he reportedly listens to in jail. Some even cheered his mugshot projected on a big screen during a dance party in Boston. There were Mangione look-alike contests in Washington Square Park in New York, and on college campuses in Florida and Texas. Luigi the Musical reportedly performed to small sold-out theaters. But my back gave out And doctors couldn't help me As dollar signs decided who would live and who would not Mangione merchandise went up for sale online. T-shirts, votive candles, Christmas ornaments, pint glasses, wine tumblers, and baseball caps. Some featured Mangione's face. Others said "free Luigi" or "deny, delay, depose." The words that police say were etched into the bullet casings found at the crime scene. After Mangione was charged with Brian Thompson's murder, online fundraising for his legal defense surpassed more than $1.5 million. GiveSendGo, the platform that hosts Luigi Mangione's legal defense fundraiser, confirmed to ABC News that the fundraiser is still active and said that there was renewed interest in donating to the fund after Mangione pleaded guilty in federal court. Some donors posted comments like "guilty but not wrong" and "Luigi is morally innocent." Luigi-mania reached Mangione's jail cell, too. He started receiving mail at the detention center. As of last summer, it was 10 to 115 letters per day, according to his attorneys. And this became more than an online phenomenon. It was impossible to attend one of Mangione's hearings without seeing his supporters outside or inside the courthouse. So what's motivating Mangione's supporters? And what do you think of the latest development when he stood there in court and admitted to this crime, pleading guilty in federal court? What now? The most important thing is that Mangione's supporters are now in the public eye. They're now in the public eye. at an incredible price. Their ultra-soft, temperature-regulating sheets, coverlets, and duvet covers are the perfect companion for a night of uninterrupted relaxation. 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Months ago, before he pleaded guilty in federal court, a few supporters, of Luigi Mangione, agreed to an interview with us, under the condition that we only use their first name for fear of losing their job or harassment for their support. The main reason why I cared was because it seemed like the focus was corruption in health care and health insurance, and that was something that I care about. That's Stephanie. She's a 26-year-old nurse based in Connecticut. As a critical care nurse, Stephanie treats people with immediate, often life-threatening medical issues. She says, she's also seen the high bills and claims denials that patients often face after seeking urgent care. She was already familiar with hospitals before her job. When she was a kid, she said she watched her mom go through years of treatment for stage 4 cancer. Years, she says, of watching her mom fight the sickness, while also working to afford the treatment. So imagine that, I mean, you're given a prognosis of three months, and then, which thankfully was, pushed to five years by the end, but she was working full-time, 40 hours a week, as a single parent to afford her health insurance so that she could continue to get chemo and whatever other care she needed to treat her terminal illness. From the moment she heard about the shooting, before anyone was arrested, Stephanie says she believed it was done to send a message. I thought maybe, you know, maybe killing her, killing somebody is not necessarily what we need to do, but I liked that somebody took it upon themselves and risked everything to make a statement. I felt like something is going to come of this, you know? So Stephanie decided she wanted to show her support. She started a pro-Mangione account on a few social media platforms, and it quickly grew a following. She shared tweets making fun of the New York City perp walk on that dock in the East River, and said, and stylized, edited videos of Mangione in court. But she says she prefers to focus on fundraising efforts and legal updates. She acknowledges that the Mangione posts that blow up are often the ones focused on his looks, but she says she tries to stay away from those. I mean, I think it would be silly to pretend that he's not good-looking, you know? To pretend that that has nothing to do with anything would also be ridiculous, but the true supporters are not here for looks, and it's a pretty ridiculous thing to do. It's a pretty ridiculous thing to suggest after over a year of this. Stephanie feels like people have been quick to dismiss Luigi supporters as some kind of fangirls. She says it's one reason why many of them are hesitant to speak to the press. You see headlines about, I don't know, let me just throw out any random number, 30 young women in line for 20 hours to see sexy killer, like, things like that. And, I mean, wow. Like, how demeaning. And it's the fact that it's not just young women or women in general. I mean, if you go to a hearing, there's people from all walks of life, all genders, all ages. Stephanie told us that Mangione's guilty plea in federal court has strengthened her support for him. Having confirmation that he did what he was accused of and clear insight into the motive has brought a real sense of relief because now the supporters are free to stand up and stand behind him and his cause. I'll keep supporting Luigi through every stage of his legal battles and as a person, no matter how everything plays out. My support has not changed at all. That's Jamie, a public school educator in her 50s. She has a husband and an adult son. Jamie said she donated to Mangione's legal defense fund and has helped supporters leading efforts in New York City. She also says she's written to Mangione. Jamie says she's been passionate about healthcare reform for a while now. But for her, this story started out much more personal. In June 2024, months before she would ever hear the name Luigi Mangione, Jamie decided to schedule an MRI. Breast cancer runs in her family and it had been on her mind. She says she has good insurance through her job and she believed it would cover the MRI. So she arrived at her appointment and started filling out the typical paperwork. She was nervous. She was thinking about the different outcomes, the worst case scenarios. But before she was taken to the MRI, they asked me for $1,800. And that was the first time I had been told that it wasn't covered or that I would have any portion to pay. Jamie says she started panicking. She ran into the lobby and called her insurance company. She says they were just as confused as she was. It should be covered. I said, well, should is a great word, but they're asking me for $1,800 right now and I have about 10 minutes to figure this out. According to Jamie, they did not figure it out. Jamie left the appointment without getting the MRI. The bill was unexpected and way too high for her. She remembers leaving, getting home, and bursting into tears. I didn't put myself first. And I think as women, we sometimes do that, as moms especially. And I just remember this overwhelming feeling of, I've got to figure this out. Jamie says she still wanted an MRI. So a year went by and my annual exam came up again and I asked my doctor again. But the difference this time was that it was the summer of 2025. And I had spent six months, six months at that point following this story and really learning what it means to fight for myself by watching somebody fight for himself. So ultimately, I was inspired by Luigi to fight for myself and advocate with my insurance company. Jamie says it wasn't what Mangione was, at that point, accused of and she was inspired by. Instead, she says she was inspired by what she learned about him outside of the allegations. What she read of his purported Reddit account with descriptions of his back problems and comments advocating for others who struggled with similar issues and what she saw following the case from home. Mangione in court, fighting the charges. He held his head high. He clearly was wanting to fight these charges and did so with as much dignity as he could. Jamie thought she needed to fight harder for herself, for her health. She needed to be her own advocate and try harder for an MRI. Jamie felt pushed to research her healthcare coverage and made calls, hours worth of calls, she says, trying to get her procedure covered. Jamie says her insurance provider was extremely helpful in the process and the provider discovered a coding error that caused the unexpected bill. The MRI was supposed to be covered. Her insurance helped her book a new appointment. In summer 2025, a full year after that first MRI, the one she'd walked away from, Jamie finally had a fully covered MRI. I had had a mammogram. About three weeks prior, that was clear. So I didn't have any reason to believe that the MRI would show anything. But it did. And I was diagnosed with breast cancer in August of 2025. And at first I was really angry for all the normal reasons that you would be angry when you get diagnosed with breast cancer. with cancer. Looking back now, Jamie's at peace with the way things worked out. They caught it in time, and she's now cancer-free. This person came into the universe and became a public figure at the right time for me. And so for that, I am very, very grateful to him. Jamie says it was tough learning about Mangione's guilty plea in federal court. I never doubted that when he pled not guilty, it was to try to get the most advantageous result, not because he was actually not guilty. And it's different to know that and to hear him admit it. And I kept having to tell myself that this was a choice he made. That he didn't find himself in these circumstances accidentally. The idea that he might serve the rest of his life in prison is a hard thing to accept. But I think we have to know. I think we have to know, at least for me, that this was that important to him. And that's where we all have to do our part to make sure that people get the care that they deserve. We asked AHIP, a national trade association that represents the health insurance industry, about patients who experience delays in treatment because of insurance coverage. A spokesperson wrote that they recognize that patients are understandably, frustrated when treatments or procedures are not approved as quickly as expected. And pointed to providers' reliance on outdated manual processes as a source of delays. They also said that health plans are working to improve the consumer experience. We also asked AHIP about the stories people shared after Brian Thompson's murder. About their frustrations with the health care industry. They said most Americans rate their health plans positively. And that we agree that. Much more needs to be done to reduce costs and create a simpler, more seamless experience for patients. Jamie remembers when she first heard about Brian Thompson's murder and what Mangione was accused of. She says she felt awful for Brian and his family. Obviously, murder, it was awful. And so all of those thoughts are kind of going through my head. I remember thinking, you know, obviously that I felt terrible. And I'm not saying that I felt terrible for this person as a person. But the public at large really understood. We kind of felt like we understood why this happened. I wouldn't say I was ever in the camp of. Deserve is such a strong word that doesn't feel like how I ever felt. But understand why I think that's where I landed. When Mangione pleaded guilty to two counts of stalking federal court, he brought up health care. He said during the plea hearing that he undertook his plan to stalk and shoot Brian Thompson after enduring severe pain from a broken back and obstacles from the health insurance system. Mangione's alleged writings also include criticism of the U.S. health care system. If Mangione's state case does go to trial, health care will likely come up again. So what about the system is being criticized in these alleged writings? And what do people who know the ins and outs of the health care system make of that criticism? Okay, big money. Well, I got a Venmo balance that I can spend with my Venmo debit MasterCard, so. Well, I Venmo'd you three times last week, so it's kind of. It's on me, actually. Want it back? Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month is back, so I thought it would be fun if we made a bet. We made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for a 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. See terms. There's a headline every 30 minutes for our show, I'm pretty sure. Welcome to Get Real. I'm your host, Amanda Hirsch. This is the show for the reality TV obsessed. You thought the show was crazy. I was dripping sweat before I even started. For the stars and fans of the Hulu reality verse. Do we think she's stirring the pot to secure a place on the show? Find and listen to Get Real wherever you get your podcasts. And stream new episodes Thursdays on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Terms apply. In the letter to the feds, which authorities allege was written by Mangione, the writer claims that greed fuels the American healthcare industry. It says, "I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument. But many have illuminated the corruption and greed." The writer then cites two names in parentheses. Rosenthal, Moore. Prosecutors say the Moore in parentheses is Michael Moore, the famous filmmaker who made the 2007 film Sicko, exploring his views on the crisis of health care in America. And the Rosenthal, according to prosecutors, is longtime health reporter Dr. Elizabeth Rosenthal. She wrote An American Sickness, a book that argues that America's for-profit medical system exploits vulnerable and sick patients. When Dr. Elizabeth Rosenthal learned her work was cited in the letter to the feds, she could have easily found the letter and read it in one of the several places it was published and quoted online, but she didn't. I didn't really feel comfortable being connected with a murder. I was not in a place to read it. At the time, Dr. Rosenthal was in a hospital waiting room where her husband was getting chemotherapy for stage four cancer. He was doing really badly and he was dying. And I was fighting many of the kind of patient battles that I'd written about but hadn't experienced. Dr. Rosenthal has been a reporter for over three decades. Covering health care for much of that time. She's currently senior contributing editor at KFF Health News, a newsroom that covers health topics nationwide and conducts health policy research and polling. Before that, she was at the New York Times. And before her career in journalism, she worked as an ER doctor at the height of the AIDS epidemic. None of that prepared Dr. Rosenthal for her husband becoming so ill. And on top of that, having to grapple with the news that her work was allegedly cited by a murder suspect, as prosecutors would eventually argue. It was an awful day on so many accounts. But, you know, I just didn't know what to say. I got a lot of interview requests and I was kind of like, I'm speechless. This is a terrible thing for someone to do. And boy, has it come to this, I never imagined that. It's been almost two years since Dr. Rosenthal was at a hospital waiting room, almost two years since that letter first appeared in the news. So when we asked her if she'd be comfortable reading the letter now, she agreed. Dr. Rosenthal quietly looked over the letter, the criticism of this country's health care system, the reference to what prosecutors argued was herself and Michael Moore, the claim that for profit insurance has amassed power and wealth and become greedy. When she was done, she looked up from the paper and simply said. Yeah, I mean, that's just true. It was a mix of analysis and statistics and also just raw anger that was not, you know, not going anywhere good. Though she might believe that the statements in that letter are true, Dr. Rosenthal wants to be really clear about something. Any attempt to kind of demonize one person or another is really, it's really wrongheaded. I mean, murdering someone is not any kind of answer to our health care problems. Rosenthal worked as a reporter overseas, and as she encountered health care systems abroad in Sweden and Italy and then returned home and sought health care in the US, she says she saw problems here. Rosenthal worked as a reporter overseas and sought health care in the US, she says she saw problems here. When I came back to the United States after about a decade away, I was kind of shocked at how much everything costs. I mean, I just couldn't understand it. Dr. Rosenthal and other experts point out that compared to people in other wealthy countries in the U.S., we pay more for health care and have worse outcomes. According to one Commonwealth Fund report from earlier this year, Americans have the lowest life expectancy compared to people in other wealthy, developed nations. And health care in this country is so expensive that around one in five Americans carry medical debt, totaling about $220 billion as of 2021, according to a recent JAMA study. And part of the cost for Americans is claim denial. Another Commonwealth report from earlier this year found that one in five adults in this country, Americans who have private insurance, say that in the past year, they, or, or a family member had a claim denied for care recommended by a doctor. For many Americans, health care has become a pocketbook issue, right? And that's, the way they feel it is almost like their health care is secondary. It's like, I can't afford this stuff. After all of these years of research and reporting, Dr. Rosenthal has come to believe that the root of these debt-inducing prices is America's economy. America's for-profit system. We asked AHIP, the Health Insurance Trade Association, about this conclusion. A spokesperson wrote, quote, Health plans are the only part of the health care system focused on holding down costs and making coverage and care more affordable for consumers. They negotiate substantial discounts with providers, combat fraud and abuse, promote the use of lower-cost generic medications, and help people access preventive care without caution. This is the reason why we are so concerned about the health care system. We don't know what's going to happen next. We don't know what's going to happen in the future. Josh Cohan is our director of podcast programming. Eamon McNiff is our executive producer. When I need to impress someone with a gift, I go straight to 1-800-Flowers. There's a reason they've spent 50 years as the floral authority. Every stem is hand-selected by a vetted florist. And with same-day delivery nationwide, 100% satisfaction guaranteed. That's why millions go to 1-800-Flowers to celebrate life's most important moments. Order now for up to 40% off. Don't miss out. Act now and save up to 40% at 1-800-Flowers.com slash podcast. That's 1-800-Flowers.com slash podcast.