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Speaker 2Hello and welcome to the How Not to Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat, and enjoy the conversation. This is episode 138 and today's episode, Managing Digital Devices, is a continuation of the conversation that I had with my daughter. There was so much that we talked about with Catherine and so many valuable insights for us as parents in terms of that perspective from a young person about how they use their digital devices, navigating balance, navigating the world of social media and how that makes them feel. I learned a huge amount in terms of the things that I did well and actually had an impact on Catherine's continued use as she's got older. But also, interestingly, some of the things that I thought that she would learn from as a younger child that she would implement as an adult that she hasn't. So, some really great insights there and some really sort of helpful aspects. And remember, when we're talking about the context of managing digital devices, our children's brains do not fully mature until around 23, 24. And when we talk about fully maturing, we're talking about the frontal cortex, the bit at the front, the forehead bit, that is where all the logic and rationale and problem solving and decision making comes from. And so, we need to remember that when we're listening and we're trying to make choices around managing digital devices in our own home because our children are still, until they're really into their 20s, well into their mid-20s, not acting from a place of doing the things that are in their own best interests. So, the strategies and the tools we put in place, the conversations that we have are very much about sort of cluing us all in. So, as ever, if you enjoy this episode, I would love it and be eternally grateful if you could follow, rate and review this podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love. So, until next time, here's Catherine. Okay, next question. How do you use your device and your social platforms? Talk us through how you
Speaker 3use them. I'm just going to preface this. I am not an angel. I get told off by mum for my use on technology in terms of my screen time. So, I don't want to sit here and say I'm like the gold standard because trust me, I'm the furthest thing from it.
Speaker 2Well, actually, why don't you say what do you mean by getting told off? What do you and I have conversations about?
Speaker 3The conversation that is normally around, which is I can hear them smirking, which is if I'm sat watching television, it's nice to have it as background noise and I do pay attention to it. I just like to be doing something else, i.e. I'll be sat watching television and I will be looking on the phone or the iPad or the laptop. It's hard to describe and I think that is a symptom of the ADHD and the autism is it's nice to have the background noise. Mum will come in and be like, are you even paying attention? Yes, I'm paying attention and it's hard to describe the multiple screens. I am guilty of it and when I'm doing university work, I have the laptop in front of me that I'm working on. I have a monitor which I normally have an iPad to the left of me, which is just playing some background noise, whether it's a television show or some music or whenever I send it into the family WhatsApp chat, I normally get a lot of screens there, Catherine.
Speaker 2What I will say is that Catherine's multiple device use is probably symptomatic of her neurodiversity, so part of her ADHD and her ASD, her autism spectrum disorder. What I would say, though, is that this is quite a common theme that I'm beginning to see. So if you're listening as a parent and your child or teen is doing this, that doesn't necessarily mean that your child is also neurodiverse. It may be an indicator that they may have tendencies, but what I would say is that I'm seeing it very much as a
Speaker 3trend with my friends and stuff is I think it's also just nice as like the background noise as a lot of my friends who aren't autistic and stuff, they do do the same stuff. I think it's just like background noise in the comfort of nature, but I just, I can pay attention
Speaker 2to what they're doing. Just saying that, yeah, because obviously I've seen this in the Ofcom report back in March, that they're seeing more and more of this. So I just didn't want anyone listening and thinking, oh my goodness me, I need to be worried about my child, but it may well be an indication. So it's worthwhile. So you're on multiple devices. How do you use your devices and your social platforms?
Speaker 3I don't know, this is an interesting one. Normally I keep with my devices. I'm very thankful that I have a few, so I keep them for very specific things. For example, my laptop is used pretty much exclusively for work, like university work, nothing else really goes on it. The iPad is more of like just a screen to project stuff on, but my phone has a lot of the social media platforms on it. And I make a conscious effort that the phone is the only device I have with said social platforms. I could download TikTok to the laptop or to the iPad, but then I know that it would just, it was spiralling to me constantly checking it. And I have, in my phone, I have it, I have it on a separate page and it's removed. So it's a conscious effort that I have to go into rather than just a, you know, get into what's it, the doom scroll where you just sit there and just scroll. It's making steps to avoid that when I'm going on social media, okay, right, I'm going on to see the post that my friend sent me. I'll like it, have a funny reaction, and then I'll come off it and I'll do university work. It's realising that I go on it for a purpose. And this is something I've only learned in the last six months, is I'll go on it with a specific purpose. I'll go on it to see if there's any formula on use. Okay, right, there's no use. Come off it, put it down, carry on. And how have you managed
Speaker 2to get to that place? Because what I would ask you, sorry, there's two questions, or a question almost in a question. But what I know that I have seen quite often is the notification pinging and then this need and drive. And I'm not saying specifically to you, but I think is one of the big concerns that I have for teens and children on social media. Because the notification comes up, and B, to then become distracted from doing something possibly purposefully, to then getting the notification and having this unwavering urge that you need to respond. And so it's that, how have you managed that?
Speaker 3I'm still learning with that, because I like to keep the screen clear, no notifications, i.e. you've mentioned this message to the WhatsApp, I'm the first to reply within about 30 seconds, because it's just nice for me to have that message compartmentalised in my brain. I'd be like, right, mum's message about what I want for dinner, okay, right, I can send that, I'm done. Done, I can focus on the next thing. But I do get with the notifications, one thing I am doing is my phone has a feature, which is Do Not Disturb, which is I can put it on, so it won't alert me, the screen won't light up, I'll get no notifications, unless for specific people. So I get the family kick through. And if anyone calls me more than twice, I think in one minute, someone, it will kick through. So it's not like no one can reach me in the space of an emergency. But for me, that really helps, because it allows me to put my phone down and realise, okay, if it's, if it is an actual emergency, it will kick through. Anything else that comes through, it's not really an emergency. And it's listed on my friend's phones, when they pick up their phone, they'll see, I think Athens and Do Not Disturb, and they'll get a notification to push it through. everybody weighed a lot of i'll say a lot of my friends maybe one of them doesn't respect it because she thinks it's funny to push through but for me it's just nice to realize like if i'm getting a notification i'll check it because it's probably from the family but right i can put it down i'll go back to work how
Speaker 2do you manage then those interruptions so just for those who've not listened to the neuro neurodiversity episode katherine has a primary diagnosis of asd and autism spectrum disorder and she's got a secondary diagnosis of add add adhd so we know that with that sort of neurodiversity and particularly with the adhd there'll be difficulties around impulse control so how do you manage that i have to be
Speaker 3careful to catch myself before i spiral i if i'm sat doing some university work if i'm really in the zone i'm in the middle of an essay and i'm just really going the phone goes i'll see it you right i can respond to that later but if i am in a place where the motivation's a bit low i'm not really doing much work because then if i'm sat there nothing's really coming to me and then i get a notification i need to make sure that i catch myself before i spiral i end up an hour staring at my screen or staring at the laptop screen with my phone in front of me doing scrolling i need to be careful that i catch myself and i realize ah okay and then if i am in a space where i really can't focus i will put my phone on my bed which is a good couple of meters from me so i can't just lean back and grab it i have to make a conscious effort to stand up and walk over because at that point i then make myself feel guilty and i'm like no i should actually scroll that clock so that suggests
Speaker 2that when you're actually doing your work you are still your phone is not separate to you when you sit down to do your work
Speaker 3no my phone is not typically separate from me and i know know that probably in some ways you can look at it and say it causes its own issues but sometimes i kind of do need it next to me or it's a nice security thing knowing it is literally just an arm's reach away but if i'm sat like right now i'll get this essay done today it would normally just go on like that and just
Speaker 2sit behind me yeah i'm just gonna touch on this like annoying mum comment now you said that security why why do you i knew you were
Speaker 3gonna pick this up it's just i think you sleep in your mom's seats with her phone downstairs it's probably it's a very good habit to get into but for me it's just knowing that it is just like an arm's reach away and i know that makes me sound like i'm what's
Speaker 2that what's the is this i'm i'm asking you this because i know there are parents that are really struggling to do this so just reiterate what were the family rules when you were when you were not an adult and you were living at home what were the rules
Speaker 3well first one the big one which was it wasn't allowed to in my room during the sleep it was downstairs or it was in the kitchen somewhere where you could see it so you could check like put a phone or even the ipad like before i had a phone like the ipad's downstairs right catherine off to bed and then that that rule changed when that rule changed when i was 18 turned 18 and it was a you can do what you want and so i then went finally the phone got to bed with me so it then did come to bed with me um i do keep it on my bed because it was normally my alarm just getting a normal alarm clock i'm like i have a smartphone
Speaker 2for a reason um it can do it all i just laughed because for those of you who listen to me quite regularly literally from the words of my baby it has come out exactly what i say to you each and every time when teens say to me i use my digital my phone for my alarm i say get a get a normal clock anyway sorry off you go so that
Speaker 3was the big one and then i do take my phone to bed with me and then i have to be careful to make sure that you know time doesn't just like roll away from me is it if i have dinner at half as i finished dinner at half past seven i'm upstairs eight i don't you know check the clock one minutes it's half past eight wake up you know look up again and it says 12 o'clock at night i'm thinking oh i've got university in a good few hours so where i'm
Speaker 2going to keep pulling you back on this because i think there will be so many parents listening to this who really want to understand this why does it fit why is there the security why does it need to be there because people will say it's not because i'm going to be on it in the middle of the night but what what's the anxiety about not having it so close to you i can't this is a really
Speaker 3bad thing because it makes me like you just i can't describe it it's not you know someone's leave your phone downstairs but it's downstairs i think it's also for me it's you know i'm going to test this normally when i get a message from my mom or if i get a call from my mom like i don't know what's happened like is everyone okay yeah of course just to ask me like when are you coming close and the ability that if anything did happen i can act immediately i'm not sat here thinking or if something happens at one o'clock in the morning and i wake up at eight and check my phone it's not like something happened somewhere else going that i've not responded to it is just a weird thing i think because i've grown up with it i've always had it near it's just well you haven't grown up with it because you didn't have it till you were 18 i meant technology i'm 20 i've had some form of technology since i was 10 it's knowing that some form of contact
Speaker 2and some form is close to me okay it's an interesting question which is why i'm asking and sorry katherine if it felt like i was really probing and actually just having that conversation i would probably just put out there for maybe you to think to think about is whether i mean i'm guessing i'm 54 when i was younger we had a telephone a landline in the house which i guess people just generally don't tend to have as much so whether that feeds into it anyway 75 of women
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Speaker 2it's so for you it's a really so whilst the rule was there before you were an adult that the phone was downstairs you've elected as an adult to do so to have a different system
Speaker 3i've elected my girl i'm trying to make sure that my phone is actually on my bedside it's on my desk so i'm not checking it when i wake up and if my alarm does go off because my alarm's on the phone i have to actively get out of bed i can't just like tap it and then just turn over and sit in bed okay
Speaker 2let me ask you then about your device usage because we've had some honest and frank conversations around this in terms of your your total device and time talk about that with with honesty we say this with love
Speaker 3and with compassion um about a year i want to say a year ago because we were in iceland when the conversation came up my screen time the figures were double digits and not like 12 hours and for me a lot of it will obviously it will say it's my phone uh tracks the uh the hours that it's on and how many like notifications how many times i pick it up and a lot of it was all about music or youtube so whilst i wasn't in theory trying to go to i wasn't sat there looking at something constantly stimulated i just have it on in the background because it's quite nice to listen to but it did get quite high and then nowadays i'm trying to be better making sure like i put it down um and make sure i think my screen is down it's still not great by any means the imagination i'm not sat here on like a few hours screen time it is probably sat here like that seven hours a day so it's probably not great by any means the imagination about seven or eight but most of it is again i'm trying to make a conscious effort about scrolling but if you put together the screen time of the laptop and the ipad it would probably be a little bit higher but the ipad is just like on just because i think mum can attest this i don't like i'm happy in silence but i like to have something with music or something on but we've had some different discussions about my screen time because your screen time i think is like three hours on a bad day well on
Speaker 2my work phone um and that's quite an interesting thing because i remember when that happened that when we talked about that how surprised were you when you discovered that you was
Speaker 3terrified it was a genuine like you had no idea it was that bad which is why i do like when i have an iphone so it it tracks up your screen time it is a very handy feature and you can see what you've spent your hours on um and it'll give you a total time for a week and it's scary but i feel like sometimes you do need it to realize oh my god i'm spending three hours or i'm spending 10 hours a week scrolling on instagram i can really just reduce that time
Speaker 2so you've used that feature now since you discovered it as actually a a helpful way of managing well being being accountable for your screen time so
Speaker 3that every now and again i check it i don't make a compulsive need to check it and make myself feel bad but if i'm thinking oh i've not really checked my phone today let me just see how i've actually been on it or you know what i felt really bad i don't know what i've done i don't know what i've done you know what i felt really bad that i've been on it loads and all the devices have have on the home screen the actual time spent so i can check it throughout the day it'd be like i've been up since 10. so if i'd lay it oh you know it's it's four now have i been on it that much oh crumbs i have one of it turn it off let's go do something else
Speaker 2yeah we've talked a lot about sort of how you use your tech and the rules that were around when you were younger how much have you taken because you're 20 now you're at university you're a summer birthday so you're in your final year of university so you'll be 21 next summer but what have you taken from your childhood around managing tech that you still adhere with or stick with or find helpful there's
Speaker 3certain rules that i think that we always have which is dinner time is always not sacred but you know dinner times then so i'm here with the family phone goes away or if you're with family or friends the phone goes away you politely excuse yourself absolutely just got a message from each other so that's that's a lot of everything's okay and then you put it down so if i'm having dinner by myself at university then obviously the phone does come out i do normally watch something but if i'm with friends and even when i come home for me i do slot back into the somewhat older rules and be like phone goes down i'm spending time with family everything else can wait um but no the big rule about the phone staying downstairs i have to completely obliterate i think a day after i turned i think the day i turned 18 i was like mum this phone's coming right back upstairs you can't tell me if i'm an adult now i think that was the first rule that was broken and stays somewhat broken
Speaker 2yeah well you know i guess these things you a trial and error certainly i know that your brother did exactly the same when he turned 18 but did go through a period of months where he actually said it's not useful for me
Speaker 3necessary i think he did go way back from both of us about it but i'm glad we did it i mean i still don't keep up now but it was a necessary thing i think it was a good thing to actually do just i quite appreciate it
Speaker 2okay i shall look forward to when you are a parent how you navigate that let me talk about that one a lot so as we sort of wrap up and of course I have no doubt Catherine will have you back on because you're always so helpful to the parents that are listening now obviously you've given us a perspective from it from the teen and a young adult's point of view what three bits of advice would you give parents from that from you know that perspective of the user one
Speaker 3the first thing that I say and I said it to mum I think continuously growing up is it's a two-way street it's not just a case of the parents saying let's take an example of Instagram stuff nope not gonna have it and the child's like oh but it's for me it's learning that there's a two-way street of education it's an education from the parent who's not really grown up with it but okay teach me how it happens and then we can talk through some techniques but also from the child as well it's listening and realizing oh okay this is why it's happened I might not understand now and I might get angry but it's the education of both of the parties not just the parents saying no and giving no reason and not
Speaker 2really learning about it and would you also go with that understanding and that education piece in terms of the parents understanding and educating themselves on how their child uses it which accounts they follow and why what they're interested in I think not
Speaker 3in terms of a give me your phone I'll look through everything but it's a mutual you know sharing of it to make sure that you don't end up with not secret accounts but you don't end up with a child that feels the need to hide things because I've seen it with my friends is the parents super super straight they came out really harsh on them or constantly and I think that's a really good point and I think that's a really good point because I think that's a really good point because I think that's a really good point you know auditing their phones and so all they did was they were like well we'll just get another phone or I'll just get something else to hide it from them it's having that open conversation which you did which was very thankful is look here's my Instagram here's everyone I follow here are my messages you know you can see all of them if you wanted to and you were like no no I trust you and it's just having that element of trust so I
Speaker 2love that one it's a two-way street in terms of the education top tip number one number two who is as much
Speaker 3as it pains me to look at this I really don't want to look at this because mum knows how much I know about this I don't know how much I know love to be wrong um try and keep the habits going I think as much as I would I would if I could go back to when I was 18 I wish I could mum could not hear this um I wish I could have the discipline to keep my phone downstairs it's never too late Catherine I'm trying to make sure I put it on my desk and keep it out of immediate reach as in if I'm late in bed I can't just go over and reach it and try to create new habits but in line with you so for me for example you know I like to have music on and it's not really nice in case I don't have music on because I don't have music on it's not really nice in case I don't have music on
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