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Speaker 2How Not To Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat, and enjoy the conversation. This is episode 137, and today's episode is called Managing Digital Devices. I'm in conversation with my lovely daughter, Catherine. Back by popular demand, as so many of you have written in to say how helpful you found our joint episode on neurodiversity and her specific journey through that. And I thought we were talking, Catherine and I, about, you know, could we do another episode together? And actually, it was Catherine's idea that we could do one on digital devices and social platforms. The reason why I think it's so helpful, having Catherine on, is that she'll be able to offer her perspective as a teen and a current 20-year-old, but also adding that extra dimension for those of you who will be listening and will want some additional sort of aspects that relate specifically to those with neurodiversity. What I want us, before we kind of get really stuck into the conversation, what I want to do is start by being super clear that whilst I'm a parenting expert, my expertise is not specifically in managing digital devices. I myself am a parenting expert. I myself have had to navigate this minefield, as it's sometimes felt. I've had to navigate that as much as you are now trying to navigate it. And I was arguably, probably, in an easier position than you are now, because when I was raising my two children, digital devices and social platforms weren't quite as pervasive as they appear to be now in young people's lives. What I'm hoping you'll gain from my conversation with Catherine is just real-world, reality from a lived-through perspective so that you yourself can take this into your own family and make your own choices. Because there is absolutely no right way to manage this. It's about creating bespoke solutions for your family. So, welcome, Catherine. Hello. Let's start. I think, Catherine, probably the best place to start is why don't you just share with everybody what your journey was with digital, digital devices and social platforms?
Speaker 3Well, my journey, considering my age and around friends, my digital journey was quite delayed, not because of anything, just I think the age in which I got devices and social media in comparison to my friends was quite late. For example, I had my first phone, personal phone, at 11. And that was because I'd gone into secondary school and it was a way for you to keep in contact with me in case anything happened. And that was, it was just a Nokia. It wasn't anything super fancy. It wasn't an iPhone. But I think a year before I had bought an iPad and that had been 100% with my own money. I think you may be putting in a little bit. So I'd had experience, obviously, with technology and screen time and managing it before I went to my own personal phone. And then even before that, back when I was probably about eight, nine, Charles, my brother, had a Wii and I was allowed to go on it, but being very mindful of how much time I spent on it. And it was a gift for Charles and so obviously I had to be respectful of that, but also the age limits on the games, you know, I was eight, nine. So making sure that the games I played were age appropriate.
Speaker 2Yeah, because I think that was the, pretty much the rule that I can remember from when you were younger was that everything was very much taken as the guidance. So if the, if the game said eight, you were able to play it. If the game said 10 or 11, then you weren't. No. And I just,
Speaker 3I understood that. And I thought, you know, there's a, there's a reason why it's on there. It's not just going to be some mean person sitting at a boardroom and saying, no, we won't. We won't let her play that. So I was just always very gracious and realized that for a reason I might not like it now, but when I grew up, I'm probably at the start of why it's on there.
Speaker 2And I think I have, I think you're being quite, we'll talk a little bit more as well, post phone and what then happened in terms of your access to other social platforms. But I think you're being quite, you know, you were very compliant, I guess, for lack of a better word. Do you remember at times wondering why? Yes. Yes. I think it was just
Speaker 3a natural curiosity and thinking, okay, why are these rules actually in place? Like, is there a reason? And then thinking, you know, if mum's saying it, that probably is a very valid reason as to why, you know, you've kept the iPad downstairs. It was never really allowed in my bedroom, even though it was mine. It was like, look, I can bring it downstairs if it's upstairs, it has to be downstairs before you go to bed. It won't be in your room. So I remember thinking at the time, this is so mean to me, she doesn't like me. And then looking back now, I'm like, that's probably a really good idea. I think you still keep your phone downstairs. I'm a bit guilty.
Speaker 2I take it upstairs. Okay. Before we start getting onto what you're doing now as an adult, because there's a big difference in terms of, I guess, how tech was managed at home and then you being able to make those decisions. So in terms of digital devices, so you've got a mobile phone when you were 11 and it was a sort of a basic, ordinary. No, um, not a smartphone.
Speaker 3Yeah. And it wasn't an iPhone. It was, you know, like a mod, it wasn't something like it wasn't like the brand new iPhone. I think it had, it was touchscreen, but it was mainly so that when I was getting the bus to and from school, you could communicate with me and I got a phone maybe a year, year and a half later. And that wasn't iPhone, but it was your old iPhone that I think even Charles had had. So it was technically like third hand. So it wasn't like I'd gone straight from nothing to brand new iPhone.
Speaker 2Okay. So you've now got a digital smartphone with 12. Talk us through what your journey was then in terms of social platforms.
Speaker 3In terms of social platforms, I didn't actually have any, I was at, I remember because I was at my first secondary school. I had no social platforms, obviously you had YouTube, but it was managed like watch videos that wasn't posting anything on it. Messaging friends like through phone numbers and then when I moved, I think to my other secondary school. I think then I turned, I would've been just over 13, 13 and a half. And at that point I got social media, I got Instagram and my account was, and still is a private account. So if someone follows it, I can see who they are and then let them see the account or I can decline it. And I kept that up for many years, just Instagram. And then I probably about three, four years later, we were talking about Snapchat, which again is quite, I think it's quite prevalent. It was, you know, 2018, it was coming up. I think I'd, I'd like, you know, it was annoying you about it and you were like, hold on, we'll go to Charles because my older brother had it. And then Charles was like, we'll get it. And I got that at seven, at 16 and a half, which for my generation, I felt really old getting into it because a lot of my friends had had it since they were like 12, 13. I think for the app, I think there is an age limit and a lot of people like lied about their age. I was like, you had to lie about your age. No, I was, I was 16. I didn't have to lie about my age. And this is quite an interesting one.
Speaker 2So, you know, as I said at the beginning, you know, I think that I genuinely navigated it probably through a much easier time, but how did you navigate that period of time at school when I'm guessing everybody had it and you felt you were like the only person
Speaker 3who didn't. It was very hard. I, I remember when I got Instagram, I was thankful I moved to a new school so I could use that to communicate with people. But I went there about 2016 and that was the height of Snapchat when it started to really explode and to, you know, take shape. But one thing that did help me in that is the school that I went to, we had a strict no phones policy. The minute you walked into their gates, your phone goes away and it doesn't come out. Obviously if you're on a lesson and the teacher's like, you can use your phone to Google something, you Google it. But during lessons and during lunches, you weren't allowed your phone out. And if a teacher caught you with your phone out, I was caught once because I was checking an email. That's how sad I was. I was checking an email. They take your phone, they put it in the office and you go collect it at the end of the day and you just basically sign something being like, I use my phone. And then after, if you get caught multiple times, you then get a detention. But that was very helpful because it meant as soon as we got into school, there was no phones. Obviously people have that. But I was like, well, the phone's not going to be out.
Speaker 2It's in my bag. So we could talk that way. But how did you then navigate it? Because I think what I generally get a lot of parents will say to me is, is the way that the children will talk about them being excluded. Excluded from conversations outside school and after school because they don't like everyone's on Snapchat. I'm not on Snapchat.
Speaker 3I've definitely had my first share of those moments, especially when going through secondary school. I didn't, I didn't have Snapchat through my entire secondary school journey and it was, I did feel quite left out and it was at a time again when it was on the rise.
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Speaker 3And you were very conscious as a parent to make sure that I was staying safe and making sure a lot of my friends' parents, I don't think, were as keyed in. They just didn't have that sort of relationship. But I was quite glad that we did. So it felt a bit left out. But equally, I had very good friends that would keep me in the loop with things. And I was still on Instagram. They could still message me. It wasn't like I dropped off the face of the earth and I walked out of school. But it did feel at some point very, very lonely and isolating because I was like, oh, I don't have a social media. I don't want it. But then I had to take a step back. And we were like, OK, they can still message me if they want to. I don't live in the dark age. Everyone's living in the new age.
Speaker 2Do you think that that was made easier because of the types of friendships, that you had these really good friendships and that you were relatively secure in who you were?
Speaker 3Definitely. I moved schools and I wasn't comfortable in school. I felt so comfortable in this school. It definitely helped because I knew the friends I was making, I was making for life. I'm still very good. I'm still very close with one of my friends. And so I was less aware of it being an issue. I think if I'd had it at maybe like the first or secondary school, where I felt really left out, it would have helped me a bit. But I then would have masked the problem instead of actually dealing with it. But making good friendships is vital because you can then, they then know why you're not on social media. They're not going to berate you for it. They're not going to make you feel guilty. They're not going to make you feel left out. And they'll include you in conversations.
Speaker 2So if you weren't messaging on Snapchat, how were you? Because obviously. There'll be parents listening to this who have, who are literally having their ears bent consistently about being on Snapchat and being told that that's the only way that people message. And of course, as an adult, I mean, I don't have Snapchat, but as an adult, my assumption is, well, you know, just, just message either through iMessages or text messages or other way. Did you feel comfortable that people could get hold of you if they needed and wanted
Speaker 3to? If people really needed to get hold of me, they had, because Instagram has a message feature, they could message me, you know, we were friends. So it's not like they were. We weren't friends. They couldn't get through the account block, but they were friends. So they could message me. It wasn't like, you know, I was completely left out of the loop. And, but we didn't use to really text each other on like iMessage. I don't know if it was like a generational thing. Now I'm still trying to get used to texting people on iMessage, but I think it was just a generational thing. Cause this, cause Snapchat just exploded. Everyone was on it. Everyone was like, oh, not on Snapchat, oh, okay. I'm not on it. But one good thing was, well, obviously we'd come out of school. Everyone's phones would come out and then I would walk home and more often than not, I'd walk with them for about 20 minutes before we split up. And then I'd meet them in the morning to walk with them. So in reality, I wasn't actually away from them that often. And if they, again, if they really wanted to message me, we were still talking on Instagram.
Speaker 2Yeah. So there was, there was, yeah, that cultivation of the in-person as well as the online contact with your friends. One of the things that I want to ask you about from the perspective, and this, this is obviously, you know. I talk a lot about the idea that the teen years is just this whole angst ridden time where you're constantly worried about judgment, fitting in how other people see you and just wanting to be accepted. How did the fact that you were very late to social platforms, and then once you've got social platforms, how did that affect how you felt about yourself when you were using those social platforms? So for example, teens will often say to me that they'll be scrolling through their feeds and feeling that everyone else's life is so much better. They're going to parties. They're being excluded from things. How. Did you find that? Because you were then on those platforms and that little bit later than your peers.
Speaker 3I think it's remembering that Instagram and Snapchat, it is a literal snapshot in time. Their whole life doesn't look like that. I guarantee you, if you look at my Instagram, oh, she lives a great life. My life is not like that. That is literally one picture. There is a whole lead up. I think there's one picture on my Instagram of me and my brother looking all lovely in Cyprus and what you can't see behind that picture is mom literally having a go. It's like, oh, I'm so happy for not smiling that entire day. Like there is, it's trying to remember that there is a whole other thing behind that picture. If you look at that picture, it's like, oh, it's a wonderful picture between her and her brother. No, if you turned on it and if you went back to that moment, you'd hear mom
Speaker 2going, Catherine, smile, please. Okay. Now parents will be listening to this thinking, oh my goodness me, that's such a together person. That's such a great way of looking at it, but obviously you didn't view it that way all of the time. So how is it? Were you saying this with, with hindsight as a 20 year old, he's very secure or were there moments you were able to look at it that way? How did you keep yourself balanced?
Speaker 3Reminding myself to just step back. And again, I think my screen time at one point got very bad. It's just learning to just kind of step back and be like, okay, I'm with family, I'm friends, I'm here. Let's enjoy the moment. Let's try and be present. Rather than like looking at Instagram, scrolling, oh, she's on holiday, she's got, you know, a car by the pool. It's okay. Sit. Breathe. I'm in a comfortable place by myself. And it's also how I use my Instagram and my social media. I don't really follow that many like models and stuff. I normally follow a lot of car accounts. It all depends on what you're looking at. And that's not to say that if you follow a lot of people, that it's a bad thing to follow, but it's just learning. You know, for me, if I see lots of like fitness influences being really skinny and makes me feel bad. So it's monitoring what I'm looking at, not from an external force, not like you mum, going. You know, you look at too many, you know, you look at too many fitness influences. That's bad. It's me as myself going, okay, I can feel myself in a bit of a bad place because I'm not feeling great about my body. Do I really want to go on Instagram and look at people working out and then realizing that's a snapshot and it's artificial and stuff like that.
Speaker 2So part of it is you're carefully curating your feed by only following things that have genuine interest. And I guess not following things that are likely to make you feel bad. Yeah. Where did that wisdom? You sound incredibly wide and do you know what? I'd love to take the credit, but I can't because Catherine's not done a lot of work.
Speaker 3It's just, unfortunately there's a lot of trial and error. It's a lot of, you know, I've heard someone say something that is like, oh, there's no right answers and wrong in life, only wrong ones. And I really liked that, you know, there's never going to be like the perfect right answer, but unfortunately there's going to be a lot of wrong ones. And so growing up and realizing in an age where I think my generation trying to grow up in a lot of social media was just being pushed at you, realizing that, okay, everyone's not putting on a face, but you know, what you're posting isn't everyone's day-to-day life, no matter how much they want to say it is. And there were times, obviously I felt bad and even nowadays, if I'm sat at home and I'm eating a tub of cookies and someone's like, oh, eat a kale, like this is kale smoothie. And I'm like, absolutely not. It's just realizing that, you know, that's their choice and this is mine, I will stick with my food.
Speaker 2How did you get to that point? Was that something that you had to go through as a journey? Did I help you as a parent? Was it a ha you know, because I'm thinking, you know, it's all well and good. You have this wonderful wisdom at 20, but there'll be parents listening to this with a 12, 13, 15, whatever age, maybe even an eight year old that they just don't know.
Speaker 3I think it was, it was a balance between discovering it myself and you kind of letting me, okay, if you want to do this, this is your journey, but equally having the support for a parent in terms of, you know, you are who you are and that's wonderful. And I love you and I would always love you for who you are and then having that mindset going into social media. So that when I was looking at stuff and feeling bad about myself, I don't look like that. It's like, well, it doesn't matter because my family loved me. I love me. Do I really need to look like a stranger on the internet just for this? And so I'm still developing it. There's still days where I scroll and I'm like, I don't feel that great, but it's just learning that you have a support network around you.
Speaker 2Thank you for sharing that. And then finally, before we move on to the next question. Yeah. Yeah. Next question. In terms of your journey, what's the last social platform that you got and at what age?
Speaker 3The last social platform that I got was, I'm trying to think, ah, it was TikTok. I must've downloaded it in 2019, but I only started properly posting on it back in 2020. And I, it was, it was the time I started getting into Formula One and I was like, well, I'll just post a couple of funny videos because why not? And then it kind of snowballed from there. I post once, twice a day, but I'm still quite good. Now I post. And then I turn the phone off. I don't sit there and watch the lights. I'm just like, nope. I'll post it and I'll leave it. But TikTok, I feel like again, it's, I, that one I actually did get in line with the time is then I got it just before it exploded, right before lockdown, um, and I was using it over lockdown, but then that was the last one I got. And even then I think I see, I'll be scrolling through my feed and I'll see then young children. I'm like, oh, I remember being that young.
Speaker 2Yeah. I have to say that Catherine is being very modest in her TikTok. I'm not on TikTok and you all know on TikTok, I'm not on social platforms at all. But Catherine, uh, is a avid Formula One fan and has a TikTok account with how many followers? 14.9,000, nearly 15,000 followers and, um, has been asked and interviewed on BBC Newsbeat several times now. So she's being very modest. Okay. Next question. Okay. How do you use your device and your social platforms? Talk us through how you use them. going to appreciate it. Don't interrupt things there. We had so much to talk about that we weren't able to fit it into one episode. So you'll have to listen for part two in the next episode.
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