Man on the Street (w/ Aidan Kahn)

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. I'm Lori Siegel, and on my new podcast, Mostly Human, I'll take you to some wild corners of the tech world. I'm about to go on a date with an AI companion, and add a real-world cafe right here in New York City. There's no playbook for what to do when an AI model hallucinates a story about you. Mostly human is your playbook for how tech can work for you. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app, and it's very empowering. Listen to Mostly Human on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of Motor Racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, a recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mis-hap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music] [Music] [Music] Somebody tell me that! A shocking public murder. This is one of the most dramatic events that really ever happened in New York City politics. [Music] I screamed, get down, get down, those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten, and a mystery. That may have been not have been political, that may have been about sex. Listen to Worshack, Murder at City Hall, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello and welcome to True Romance. This is your nasally-host Devon Leary, and I'm joined by. [Music] You're not nasally-host, Caroline Abarlo. How are you, Carol? I'm good! I am very good! How are you? I'm fully on the mend. Day 11 since symptoms. I feel completely fine. I sound like a boring version of Elizabeth Holmes. And I'm back out in these streets. I can't. I'm so happy for you. You can continue your summer of adventure. I was really looking forward to getting back on the apps, but I hadn't like. I actually was sick from COVID, even though I'm back. I wasn't asymptomatic. COVID is not a hoax. You're hearing it here first. I actually did get sick. And I was so sick that. If you can't even believe this, I was so sick that I didn't even look at the apps for multiple days. And I noticed a trend, which is that. I mean, I don't know from the other perspective. I guess we can ask if this happens with women from our guests. But I noticed a trend with men being that multiple people I just didn't respond to, who had said, "Hey," or like, whatever joke to get the conversation started. Just sent another message and another message and another message. Like, "Hey, TGIF. Sunday's scary's question mark." Monday night. Sunday's fun days. Sunday's fun day question mark. Monday night. Do you watch the batch? Like, as if I would see the fourth message and be like, "Oh, you know what? Actually, yeah. Like, hey, what's up?" Whereas I, if I message someone and they don't respond, usually take it as like, "Oh, maybe you accidentally matched me. Maybe you googled me, saw some red flags. Maybe you looked at my Instagram and were like, "You know what? I'm not ready for this right now." Whatever that means, which is what happens for me. But no, some of these men really just send eight things in a row. And I went to a friend's party last night and was talking about it. And that friend recalled that there used to be. When Tinder first started in the early 2000s, early mid-Auts, I guess, there used to be a service that I guess it was like an app you could pay for where men would like. It's like for men to be able to swipe on like a thousand women at once, swipe yes. Like, they would just like press this button and then there would be like a million swipe rights and then they would only respond to the people they liked out of that. So, I guess, in a way I respect it, like. It's work. It's work. You're putting in the. It's a gamble. It's gambling. Well, it's not a gamble because you're just throwing a net out and just seeing what you catch. A gamble would be something where you're like a sniper as Craig Connover from Southern Charm put it as he described himself when he's hitting on girls. He's like, "I'm a sniper. I choose my girl for that night and I go after her." Wow. Hi, are you doing this to me? I'm rooting for you. I'm rooting for you. And you're describing hitting on women as someone shooting them. Okay. I hope you got to the point now where Craig is unattractive when he works for the whiskey company and he lies to everyone and says he's sad. It's really upsetting. He's like, "I guess I'm going to be present and have the whiskey company." No, I just thought like, "Okay, yeah, I did. Like, tell some people that I'm going to be like the head of it." Yeah, I just thought that was going to happen. It's not an attractive look. Anyway, I guess you have like nothing to yes and me about from the bit I just started. No, I mean, okay, this is the thing. Dating apps. I don't think I'm that good at them. And I remember the first day I got Tinder. I had an interaction like you're saying. A guy said, "What nationality are you?" And he said, "I'm not a Swedish question mark." And he said, "Okay, cool. Do you ever want to go out sometime?" And I didn't respond. Okay, cool. And I did not respond in light of my silence. He wrote, "Because I've never had a Swedish girl sit on my face." Oh my god. First Tinder interaction. He's like, "I'm just going to jump to it." Like she's not getting that quickly. Yeah, exactly. And I was like, "What is this app?" I just downloaded it. It's like, "Is this bad software? What did I just put on my phone?" And I just think it's fascinating how they talk about the internet. Like no one can see your face. Yeah, I do. No, I do know how they talk about the internet. No, I've had the conversation where they talk about how you can be your worst self because you're not face to face. Yes. That's why people control Koi Kardashian for a trust in cheating on her. And we can really be our worst selves. Yeah. I think it applies to dating apps too, where you're just like, "I can just keep shooting my shot." Well, I think so too. I also use the apps for evil where I've been bored using my sister's bumble. But like texting guys from her bumble and continually asking them to adopt their dogs. When they say, "No, I just start talking to them and cats." I said, "Can I have your dog?" Well, that's the thing is that I feel like the narrative is like women are so like, I mean, maybe it's not anymore, but what I grew up with is the narrative that women are like clingy and crazy and like won't leave you alone. And I'm like, "I've never known a female friend to do that besides me in certain years of my college experience." Okay. But it happens all the time with men, I feel like, where it's like message, message, message. And sometimes they'll like pass them aggressively on match. And I'm like, "Okay, like, what if there was an emergency?" Or, "I'm not gonna match you." (laughs) Have you ever thought that something could be going on in my life? Like, I have a deathly illness and I just like, "No, I don't have Sunday's scaries." I'm like calling the ER seeing my mom's on top. Or, "Yeah, I still have Sunday's scaries." It's called COVID. And it's affected half the country. (laughs) Anyway. And a Biden has it. Biden has a case of the Sunday's scaries. Yeah, I guess Biden's Sunday's got a little terrifying. And he has a country to run. And Kamala is gonna be president. So yeah, I'm scared. You could say I'm scared. Anyway. I think it's time, I think it's time that we bring an outsider in. Yeah, we're in a real echo chamber speaking of politics. And this is doing by- I love some of our old bad reviews. One episode when Trump got COVID, which should be a national holiday and was not kidding one of the best days of 2020. Maybe one of the best days of my life. Definitely and I texted each other within seconds, being like, "Oh my God, oh my God, this is joy, joy, joy." Like, you know, all the good feelings. Chris, we talked about it on the podcast. And we got like three bad reviews on our podcast page. And one of them was like, "I wonder how you feel if people were celebrating when you got sick for three days with no symptoms." Like they both did like a pro-Trump and anti-COVID message. At the same time. Yeah. So they were like, "Stopping so political." I mean, we really, we don't disagree on a lot. Except one topic probably every episode where I scream at you. My favorite was when I said, "I'm going off Instagram because it makes me feel bad about myself." And stuff. And was like, "No, you're not. You're so stupid. You're not going off Instagram." And I said, "Because it makes me feel bad about myself." I'm struggling. I'm in a- Maybe it's less than we need a different opinion than we need a mediator. And so for that reason, we're bringing in a friend. Mr. Man. [laughter] Listen, listeners. So our guest today is an actor, award-winning filmmaker, musician and writer who you may recognize from shows such as "Izombie, the Girl." good doctor, supernatural, and upload on Amazon Prime among others. And he's currently finishing recording an EP, which I don't really know what that is, but I'm gonna ask him about it. And also getting his masters in journalism. So you could say he's a busy guy. And he also had the, some would say trauma, some would say pleasure of living across the hallway from me in college during what I would refer finally to as my rock bottom. (laughing) Please welcome, please welcome to the pod, Aiden Khan. - You know, it was, it was, thank you for having me. I just wanna say, because living across from Devon was awesome. And it was not a trauma, or if it was, it was like a really kind of, one of those really positive traumas that you used for a problem. - It was kind of a real problem. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. - Well, the problem was that I consistently didn't have the keys to my dorm room. So I consistently just went into Aiden and our friend Amir's room and just slept there. I do remember like one, the one time I ever remember you being annoyed was when I like ordered a pizza to your room and was like eating at like 3 a.m. with a friend. And you were just kind of like, wait, really? Like, okay. (laughing) It was like, sorry. - I don't remember that exactly, but I don't remember a lot from that year. I'm not actually. I remember having a key and truly, I had a key, but I truly once was so high that I forgot how it worked. And this girl came to let me into the dorm and she laughed upon seeing me 'cause I was truly staring at my key, trying to figure, it was one of those scanner keys. And I was like, I couldn't even start to explain what I do with this. I've been here a year. Aiden, you are our first, like we're gonna do a segment talking to straight males about their romance and sex lives. And we are good and across boundaries. And we are gonna get too personal because we are just like you, maybe we're not going to school to get a master's in journalism, but we are journalists. And I think that our listeners know that this is a podcast by two journalists. - We are, we're researchers, for example, the time when I called the award-winning film, "Tandering Clementine" for an entire episode. (laughing) - For example, when we broke the Weinstein story, episode two, we were like, hey, you guys might see a little title in front of your movies, it says "Miramax." Well, let me tell you, that guy's been up too. - I'm ready for the heavy-hitting question. - Okay, thank you so much. And you know what, yes, on a scale of PG to the NC17, how okay are you with types of questions? As you may know, this podcast tends to get personal, for instance, I did once get waxed and then talk about every area that the waxer removed hair from. - Wait, you did? When was that? - It was in Boston. - Oh. - I was mainly talking about how painful it is as a woman to get ready for any kind of romantic interaction with guy and how, a man and a guy. - With guy, with men, with boys. - Listen, sex with guy, what you have sex with guy, you got a lot. - With that sex man, no hair. - Yeah, and- - That's like the Play Mobile guy that comes up. That's like, if you're dating it, that's guy. Oh, guy. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you are guy for these purposes. You are representing men for us. And- - You are handsome guy, by the way. You are handsome. - Okay, I literally told them and I was like, wait, he's cute. I literally- - I knew when she saw, Aiden, I knew when she saw you get on the Zoom, she was gonna regret that she like, God, this looks like shit. (laughing) - Devon literally, I opened up my Zoom window, Devon laughs. Like she knew, she just laughs openly. - Because- - I think you were good. - No, her hair was like, he's great up. - It's fine, I'm not, you know what? I'm really relying on my personality these years. - You showed it. - I'm getting it together. I told my dad, I was making sure my dad, and I said sort of casually, yeah, I'll pull it together. And he goes, you will. - Oh my God. - Fuck you! - And the first time. - I suppose you don't need to. I know, I know. - Yeah, I suppose to like, oh my gosh, you look incredible. He's like, yeah, you will. I was in kind of like, maybe you should do it in the back. - Some may, maybe you will. - So for these purposes, you speak for all men. And yes, your predilections are your own. And certainly, you know, a lot of what we talk about in this podcast is if some guy doesn't like you, it's not because you're not attractive. It's because, you know, there is a man who will like you for exactly as you are, but for these purposes, we are gonna pretend that you speak for all men. And you are all a guy. - And all men, all a guy. - We also, I wanna say, first of all, if you feel comfortable, give us a little window into your current romantic place. What's the six? - Well, I like you and mom the apps. And I'd like to know what apps you guys are on and know about the differentiated experiences on those apps. Yeah, I'm single, I've been single for a while. - A while? - A while. I mean, it really depends how you classify my like last, you know, quote unquote relationships. Yeah, like, I mean, the last like girlfriend I have is like 11 months ago, maybe, like that. - Okay, okay, so not too long. I think it helps that I don't know you because I have no self-consciousness about asking you if you could. - Yeah, go for it. I think it turns like like perennial waxing level. For sure questions banned in several countries. - Right. Okay, cool. Do you wax your asshole or is that just me? - I don't super curious about it. - Okay, cool. - Definitely waxing. - By the way, it's not painful. And I think it's like very sanitary in a lot of ways. I think so too. - I think it's great. I need to wild to me and to most guys. And again, I will try to speak for all men. - You're speaking for America. - Yeah, for America, for the American male as depressing as that is. - Oh man. I was gonna say, I probably don't offer too much in terms of political diversity of viewpoints, but I will try to be as awful as possible. So it's to give the best, most accurate impression of men, which from what you talked about earlier and from what my female friends say about data on apps, at least I'm like, who are these fucking people? - I know. - That's so, yeah. I'm most men I think are pretty shocked. I was shocked. They're trash. But I was like, I'm still sort of shocked that waxing is like a thing that women do regularly. It's just like a create, it's still thinking about the process of like going in and like, like, bearing all to a stranger. It's crazy to me. - Oh yeah, and they'll talk to you so casually. It's so funny getting waxed like this one woman was like, yeah, dating's been hard. All right, knees up. All right. - Oh my god. - Okay. One thing I do think is interesting though is I had a boyfriend for a while and I would get waxed regularly. And finally he told me at a certain point, he was like, by the way, like, I don't watch porn if a girl doesn't have hair, which like, I think that's like weird. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Like I have been like, oh, you were doing full bear. - I was, well, yeah, I was like doing like, like, you know, enough to write home about. I was pulled some nights. I'll say that. I was chilling. - And he was saying he didn't like that. - He wasn't even saying he didn't like that. He was just like basically like, some hair. I think it's like totally normal. - Oh yeah. - I think it's like weird. - Thank you so much, some hair. - So I think you girls are like, - Some hair. - Thank you. - And you'll tell me when to stop. Won't you? - Won't you? - Yeah. (laughing) - So that we are starting off way too intense. I wanna scale things back. - I'm gonna miss this. - Is it, I wanna ask a basic, which is it a turn off for you if girls text first? Are you one of those people who likes to chase? - I don't think it's a turn off for say. I do like to chase. And I think it's text first. You mean like in messages like in the apps, is that right, man? - Yeah, or just be a text or DM. - Or DM. - No, I don't think there's, no, definitely nothing wrong with that. I think basically like if a guy's into it, he's gonna kind of go for it. There's no, however it begins as sort of, - Right. - In material. - Do you count text bubbles? If you're really into a girl and you're like maybe a little insecure about, you know, is she into me or not? Do you do the thing where you're like, okay, there's three blue text bubbles here. There's three white text bubbles here. I've texted too much. - Are you, - Or do you not get that much in your head about things? - There's no math involved for sure. I'm not doing any of that. - Sure, maybe there. - Yeah, yeah. (laughing) - Sure, barely ever think about it. - I think, I think like, like I think, is this should you think you say, I think I can get away with stuff because I'm not trying to pretend that I'm, my whole approach to the like dating situation of the apps is that I don't, you know, I'm not gonna really play, I'm not gonna try to pretend to be cool 'cause I'm just, it is what it is. - You are a mom. - Because I am natural, 'cause I am extremely cool. No, I'm like, you know, I'm a, I'm a mom. - Ain't so many girls are gonna fall in love with you. - I know. - I'm a very good like natural cadence on this thing. - Oh, perfect, perfect. Great, 'cause that's good as how much do the apps? - Do you have moves? Like do you have like, okay, I see a girl, like I know how I'm gonna approach this? - I just think it doesn't, I just have found in my years of volunteering experience that just like doesn't work. 'Cause there's not much that you can do other than just being like normal, you know, hey, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong from your perspective. I just might, my like empirical, observation is that it's not there's not a whole lot you can you can do in terms of uh you know getting a good line or you know yeah if you can make something somebody laugh right off the bat great yeah not important yeah you know I think like usually that has to be like oh they said something interesting in their bio which let me tell you uh one and a fucking million yeah yeah what are what are intriguing things for you on apps for instance like I like someone who puts like one weird thing like one weird picture one like something that tells you that you're not basic yeah and something you can comment on yeah yeah gotta give somebody a but hold for several I think there's some stuff where like a lot of girls like I'm on raya do you know oh yeah I'm familiar with the hellswee double are you on it yeah we are both on it we do agree that it's the worst app in human history but there's something I like about it which is that I can't be on it all day gives me a limit so I can't lose my mind but no but Caroline how many times I had to tell you that's all of them they all I know but I okay I don't know why it's easier for me okay I can only think of one app at a time I I don't like I'll say I like two percent of the guys I see on it I like yeah but that's true for most of them it's a pretty bleak I I've occasionally go look on the maps or whatever I've looked at my friends raya council it's like it's like hockey player hockey player male model you know um male on this mysterious entrepreneurial douchebag who's like 50 years old you know in pictures in Ibiza um actually the burning man crowd is the biggest I think it's the yeah every woman over 30 has a picture of herself and her friends in like your hats and really oh god oh my god that's so upsetting I when I look at the maps which is all the time because I just I'm like what who's out there what's going on I I get freaked out because like the women are so hot looking and like they all have looks like huge fake I know I got to and I'm like like fake lip what do I have right oh I don't think I don't think that I that's a that's a left swipe or what's that's an X for me yeah like fake fake lips fake guys like no well there's also the male version of that where I'm like I'm right okay you're not like real like no fake lips so that appointment yeah but I think there's the male version of that too and they're also like men seem obsessed with like live music and like I don't like live music and I like can't get away from this this like it's like ruining my romantic life that I don't like live music like one guy who I even made progress with like he was like something about live music and I was like I don't really like live music and um then I sort of went on a rant about it and I was like and I just went to New Orleans where my friends were going to jazz fest and I didn't even go and he was like oh I go to jazz fest every year as a tradition I was like okay what with my family and I had my grandmother died yeah wait what another guy asked me for a date to like a Lou Reed exhibit and I was like who is that like I hope this seven and then and then another person unmatched me he's like talking about going to Burning Man and like going to other stuff he was like Burning Man wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be and like whatever and um do you go to festivals this that and I was like I really don't like live music and he goes wait really and then unmatched me like like he was like thought about it and was like wait really bye and I'm like okay you know I guess if that's like a huge thing to him maybe he's saving you both some time that's true what are so what are deal breakers for you on apps like what would make you unmatched a girl unmatched or like they said um so for instance Devon and I hate like a super defensive like bio like guys who will be like oh yeah hey yes shivlery isn't dead I'm a gentleman yes they still exist do I like drama no follow you are a fan of bullshit like stuff like that where I'm like okay I don't know who hurt you but like do you see a lot of that shit oh yeah I got so I know Ryan has the most of that raya has like the most of that the most raya also has the most of I'm six for if that matters right right that's because hinge just makes you say your height so it takes that I'm sure I'm hinge they would say that too but raya also is like the extensive I was talking about this I forget if I said it on the podcast but like truly if a man's bio is like just an emoji of like a soccer ball I'm like great so I like sure I'm sure you're like somewhat interesting but they go so intense where they're like I'm just looking for someone who's fit and fantastic and comforting and they're when I need them and I like to travel and worldly and goes to Burning Man and I hate a long bio it's so it speaks to too much time on your hands the one I saw a guy who used an emoji for every single thing he wrote for himself so he was like I'm a full-asophical guy brain emoji I'm like oh my god brain emoji brain emoji is red flag I'm looking for someone to connect to hard emoji I was like this process the fact that you sat down and did this alone is enough of a turn off for me to swipe left well there's a very I mean I don't like like like I think the older somebody is on these apps the more they have to say I think they almost treat it like that's a good point like like a like a confidential you know or really call it like classifies and they're like in the paper yeah they do they do yeah like fit you know fun loving fifth year old yeah yeah you know whatever um but raya also I think is sort of like the epitome you literally by joining raya and I assume I don't know how many people actually know what raya deer listeners will they just oh everyone knows yeah okay all right all right but like I I think by joining raya you're identifying yourself as a try hard because you're literally that's true yeah that's true I'm gonna sign up I'm gonna I'm gonna apply and then I'm gonna like fuck and I have to have references and then I'm gonna you know put you know pictures and attach all this shit so you're already gonna get a lot of those people who I think just need to need to to shut up but I'm always surprised by like what you said earlier the girls are always telling me the guys are asking like what their background is which to me is such a fucking bizarre thing to do it's so bizarre and what like if you'd said but what is he what you said the Swedish like we need to say like if you're in our region you would have maybe like a thing I think it's like a weird way to start a conversation but one of the weirder conversation things that I've heard multiple girls say to is like I'll have a guy lecture me weirdly like about something for instance once I a guy said like what are you doing your free time and I said well I do work a lot like I so I try to get free time when I do but I really like my work and then he'd go this fucking guy who I actually knew from school I mean I'd met him a few times but we had reconnected on the apps this fucking guy is like well Carolina using my name well Carolina I think it's important you got to play hard and work hard at the same time really need to be easy on yourself and you need you need to take that time to enjoy life no I'm like are you for real right now like I'm sorry I I'm like a 24 year old who's like hustling I'm not gonna like instead of just being like oh that's so cool yeah I get it we all struggle with that or whatever like bland thing you want to reply you're just gonna put on like your dad hat and like like learn how to like enjoy life it's so weird I was like I don't know what this instinct is to like talk to me like you know more than me it's all the residues of the word daddy you know it's just yeah guys guys guys think this is a good thing now yeah yeah like a father figure so wait what prompts did you choose on hinge eight and if you're on it fuck I don't know I look yeah look leave a now because I think it's interesting that what men choose but I chose the my most controversial opinion one and I said that Kim Kardashian is asexual and I've discussed on the pod like the that amount of men that are like okay you really you think she's asexual well guess what like she has four kids how does that mean she doesn't have so I'm like no no I didn't want to argue about that I was just fight with you I just can't say what is it with people coming at you yes like I don't get that like you want to are you you think that this is gonna get you laid I don't I don't get it like I'm talking how do I even see my fucking profile seven what are your openers again because you had really funny openers well I I usually try to respond to something in someone's profile although I've kind of been choosing to take the back seat because I always was like I'll make the first move like I don't care don't play games but then I talk to a couple of friends who were like no you have to play games like you have to make the men like this has changed my life although Caroline and I tried that when she was here with this guy like that I was texting with and she's like don't ask a question like just like leave it hanging and play hard to get so I didn't and he never texted me again and looks like he's playing games too looks like we'll see the blitz back the way it is the Olympics because it's really fucking long so I've been like not using opening lines but I usually try to make a joke about someone's profile I used to say what's your favorite sin mad movie but then like some people would be like wait what sin bad like I don't like I don't know who that is and I was like what I had an opening that I used because this guy in New York told me it worked on girls which was I would text guys do you want to get married or whatever and when I tell you it's a lot of the flops every single time works like a charm on women I'm sure like women are like oh yes where do you want to be up because they think it's like oh my god you're so beautiful I literally have to just like ask like would you get married you're my dream woman and meanwhile guys were like you fucking psychopath yeah I mean yeah yeah a little bit a little bit I think that works for because it's not because it's gonna get you anywhere but it works because people like to hear you. Well and also I probably probably like, like I've used stuff like that before to be honest. And not not not not. I thought you're being honest. I'm not proud to say it, but I think like usually it's more of like a thing where they're like, I know that this guy's going to just compliment me for the next, you know, however long I allow this to go on. I started finally like really talking on the apps and the compliments. I was like, wait, this is fun. Like dating is fun again. When you're not after being in a relationship for a long time when you're just like texting with someone who's just giving you, you're like, wait, I could, I think I'm going to like it here. I want true romance. I'm Lori Siegel, a long time tech journalist. And consider my new podcast, mostly human, your bridge to the future. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build a nap. And it's very empowering. Each week, I'll speak to the people building that future and we're going to break down what all of this innovation actually means for you. What I come to realize is that when people think that they're dating these AI companion, they're actually dating the companies that create this. We're experiencing one of the greatest tech accelerations in human history. And let's be honest, that can be messy. But it's my belief that we should all benefit from this moment. Mostly human will show you how. My goal is to give you the playbook, so you can benefit. The reason I say agency is because like if we can give power back to people, then I think that's probably the best thing we can do for your mental health. Listen to mostly human on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I became a millionaire overnight but lost everything that actually mattered. Wait a minute, Sophia, did you just say he lost everything? That's right, it's inheriting too much drama week on the Ok Storytime Podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, "I just inherited a fortune after losing my mom and now my girlfriend's entire family is coming out of nowhere with her hands up. One sibling wants me to fund their whole lifestyle. Another vanished for four years and suddenly reappeared and my girlfriend is already giving my money away." Hold on, Sophia, so the girl he wants to marry is already sending money out the door. That's just the beginning, he makes a plan, sets up a trust and finally thinks he has everything under control. Okay, so things work out then? Let's just say the people he trusted the most are the ones who ended up shocking him the most. To just the money end up being worth going through all this. To find out, listen to the Ok Storytime Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, former bachelor star Clayton Eckerd found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. Family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. "You doctored this particular test twice in selling, correct?" "I doctored the test once." It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. "I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for." "Some likes the greatest disinfectant." They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. "Graca Westby and Michael Marentini." "My mind was blown." "I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap." "Lora, Scottsdale Police." As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. "Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at America, Pacownia's Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges." "This isn't over until Justice has served in Arizona." Listen to Love Trap Podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. "I wanted to ask, okay, so after you've connected, you're going to think. " "Wait, we're getting disorganized." "I know. That's why I was trying to get a back on track. What are you going to do?" "What are you going to do?" "And if you're able to give us three red flags on the apps and three deal-breakers." So the red flags would be like, you wouldn't even match with them. Deal-breakers would be like, when you're messaging, then you're like, "Oh, this is deal-breaker. I'm going to stop responding." For instance, a deal-breaker for us is like, "Newsboy hats." If I see one, no, I can't ever unsee it. Or if a guy does a shirtless selfie where he kind of was like, acting as if he's not just doing it for the shirtless selfie, like he's holding up a fish, but he's like, flexing super hard. I like that. "I like that." "I like that. I like that." "I'm starting to see a lot of girls holding up fishers." "Really?" "Which is sort of like a weird inversion of that trope." "That just says Trump to me. That says Trump." "Yeah, I honestly, there are a lot of weird little Trump indicators that I notice, mostly. " "Like politically moderate." "Yeah, really say moderate." "Or, I've seen conservative a few times on hand." "Me too, me too." "I'm like in the wild, seeing one in the wild." "Yeah, it makes sense. They need to fuck through." "Although I hear that they have their own, a couple of their own dating apps." "Oh, really?" "Yeah, in DC especially because they just can't get laid in DC." "Oh, yeah." "Like real conservatives." "There are consequences for your behavior and there's a lot of them there. There are a lot of them." I mean, I guess they're everywhere. "Anyway, sorry, the question was about red flags." "Dealbreakers." "Dealbreakers, definitely never gonna swipe right on a girl who has a picture for a self-warned fur." "Oh, okay, I'm so hot that you said that, Aiden, continue." "I mean, it says a lot. One, one, I. " "You think it toasts with vegan cream cheese on it?" "Oh, that's hot. That's hot." "Should I leave the zoo?" "Yeah, that'd be great." "Okay." "Yeah, I see that like a surprising amount. Partly I think right now because I'm in New Mexico and so like all the people in the apps around me are in Aspen, Denver, like Dallas or you know, El Paso or shit like that. So it's a little more mountainy. I don't know because it's like, anyway. It's not like everyone has to say they're fucking vegan or whatever in their bio, but it's said a lot of. It's just like, "Oh, this person is not particularly aware." Or they're trying deliberately to like turn off people who might care about that. It's so funny though. You mentioned vegan in the bio because I'm like, I would say like 80% vegan, but I still have turned off when a guy puts a vegan in his bio. Like I'm so like fucking loser. Like I love the vegan diet. I think it's like great. I love animals so much. It hurts. But I think there's something like no matter what it sounds pedantic. It sounds like like, like, holier than that if you're going to put it in your bio. I think I don't know why this is maybe one of those double standards. I totally agree with you and then would do that. I think it should be a secret that you discover later. Yeah. Like, like male sensitivity or male tears. But yeah, I'm more likely to swipe right on the grocery. And I'm not even fully vegan. I just like what it says about somebody that they're more conscious about that kind of thing. I don't know if that's representative, but I'm supposed to be representing men here. Men are like, I like a girl who could sit down eat corn rice and drink a beer. I mean, I love girls who think that about guys and we see a lot on dating shows girls can like, I just like watching the fucking game. It's like I get it and trying to like prove some point here. I don't. Yeah. But showing me some insecurity. I don't need to say that's really interesting because I'm thinking of so many versions of that with men's at like the subtle things where I'm like, okay. So you just like don't fully get it. Like one guy had a picture. He was posing and he had just one or not one, but I guess like got in a medal for like running a half marathon. So it's like he was in like the half marathon uniform with the medal. And then he was posing with like a thumbs up, but directly in front of a cop car. And I was like, okay, I just feel like if you paid attention to that politically, you wouldn't have kept the picture with the cop car in the background with your thumbs up. Do you know what I mean? I'm sure he doesn't. I'm sure he's not like red flag. I'm sure he's not like blue eyes matter, but he just like didn't even think about that. And it's like the first thing where it's like a subtle like you're like, okay, I don't know if you fully get it or the whitest possible guys having like a like schoolboy cue song as like their bias. Like it's like really? Like I don't know. It's just you should have thought a little harder about that. You know, I don't know. Yeah. I think just to generalize, I think like artists aesthetically aware, they're not as aware of their surroundings. Really, you know, I think like definitely the male profiles I've seen. It's like you, wow, you didn't put a whole lot of thought into this or the thought you did put in was sort of like weirdly, you know, very clear that you have sort of a very specific set of ideas about what women are attracted to. Right. They're sort of, I don't know, don't seem on that genuine. Generally speaking. I agree. The amount of men who just like, because on hinge, it's like there's like four slots for a photo and the amount of men that it's just like they clearly just took four photos in a row. It's so thrilling. It's so thrilling. It's so thrilling. There was this one guy, I work with all these, these Gen Z kids who are like all hip and talk like they're all hip and this one guy I showed one of the Gen Z girls in my office, like his profile and it was like he just like held a phone out and like took a selfie looking straight at the camera four times in a row and his age was 43 and the girl goes, it's giving 43. And I was like, you know what it truly is. It truly is. Like he was just like, no. They know how to just get to it. Yeah. They just say, they just, they basically is kind of like in 1984. They've like narrowed language to the point where they just, it's just a, they don't actually say the thing, but you know exactly what they're talking about. So everyone knows what Raya is not everyone who listens has This is red 1984. I'm like cracking my brain. I'm like, what, 1989? The song about Harry's style, about Taylor Swift, yeah. It's 1985, going for soup. Oh okay. Yeah, I do, you have to though, do you know the statistics about how poorly men do on these apps? So also. Really? No, I don't. I assume they're cleaning up. No, it's. So bad. So bad. And it kind of explains a lot. If you think about it, like among men, it's something like 4% of men on the apps are getting like 80 something percent of the matches. I feel like it's like, what? Yeah, like there are which makes, I mean, you know, you look at some profiles that men have and it's like, holy shit. Of course, you know, like put a shirt on or whatever. But it's pretty astonishing. Wait, that's so interesting. Like a nation of insoles at this point. I know I'm literally scared here at you say that. I'm like, oh, so they're going to come murder us, right? Like. Probably. Yeah. So that's what's happening. No, not only that, it's like so much worse than the Miki and apparently like. You know that there's something called the selective service system, like when men turn 18 in the States, you have to sign up for the selective service. Basically, they give you a draft number so that they have it. Yeah, you like wait, still. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't do it within three months of your 18th birthday, then you like can't get federal assistance ever or anything. Technically, you could go to jail, but I don't think they've prosecuted anybody at my 40 years. Wow. Anyway, you're supposed to do that, right? But the military now. I did it. There was a study that came out that said that 75% of military aged men are either too overweight to be drafted, have medical problems that preclude to be drafted or criminal records. That means like. Guys on the apps to it's like, yeah, I mean, it's just like the state of what you got that's my litter picking from the pool. You're swimming in is is it's getting pretty sad. I mean, I've heard all those problems than go to war. So I guess that's something. I don't know. I actually feel like there's a good selection. Like to be honest, although I talk about a shit, not when I'm on Raya, but when I'm on hinge. I do feel like there's a good selection. Like I'm like, okay, hot, hot, hot, medic firefighters. Like there's people who have skills on there. But I'm like, okay, this is who I should be with. Wait, but it's also like it's also that when I see someone, it's like Steve and he's like six foot and he is a lawyer. I'm like, so then you must just match with everything. Like you literally have three things that qualifies you. Whereas I do feel like women like I feel like there must be so much competition on that. Like I'm like, I have to have like the hottest possible picture of my that shows my whole body and whatever. And like the the angle to the side and this and that. I feel like Steve just has to have like one pick at his friends wedding. And then like six foot and it's like, okay, but maybe I'm wrong because it sounds like it's not that way. I don't know, but I think that that sounds pretty reasonable. Like like that. I mean, look, if you're like a decent looking firefighter on hinge, my assumption would be that you're doing okay. Yeah, but they're probably not even on hinge because they just have to walk around the city like with their with their fire fighter outfit on him or literally save one kitten. And like, you know, come down and, you know, just, splay, putts in one thing. What are things that I'm meeting? You're like, okay, I'm definitely going to swipe right on this girl. Like what are your, for instance, if I see a dog in a guy's picture, I'm like, I'm going to fucking talk to that dog. Like I want like even if I don't like that guy, I need to have a conversation with him about that dog. I'm not the dog just to see. Right. Well, I think the dog's always a great way in it and for sure, which is why my dog, my pictures all have dogs and then actually every picture has done this for the animal. Fuck, I don't know man, like I, it's such a, it's such a weird hodgepodge of the different kinds of matches that I have. There's like this typical sort of bullshit like, you know, models and actresses and shit. And then there's like, you know, oh, her, she's got a cool job. You know what I mean? Or like, or like, yeah, maybe she has a really cute dog that might be, that might be part of it. But like, I don't think there's any one thing. There's no, the only answer is to be just effortlessly, effortlessly alluring in every, from every angle, I think is really the thing. That's it. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna cut out writing this down, writing this down. Do you have, wait, one more question about hinge. I know this doesn't involve you, Carolina, because you refuse to use the lay people's apps, but Aiden, do you have a voice note and do do a lot of women have voice notes because I see so many men with the voice notes. And sometimes it works like really well in the person's favor where they have, they have something really funny or like, they have a hot voice. But then a lot of times I'm like, wait, what? Because like the voice note will be for, for those who don't know, meaning Carolina, there's a prompt on hinge that says like, what's on my mind or something. And then you can like, record your voice. And there's like men will be like, yeah, I'm on here because I'm looking for something real after all this time. And that'd be nice. So what are you looking at? Yeah, it's been a hard year. Yeah, it's been a hard year for all of us. What is going on? Like no. So what do women do with the voice note area? Fuck, I usually don't listen to it. Honestly, if I see that it's there, I'm like, just move on. Interesting. I'm usually around people. Right, that's true. But I'm going to like listen to your voice now. I really don't get this. And the whole voice note thing, like I have a few friends that send that send voice notes. And it's like, well, okay, I'll respond to you in four days when I know you're like listening to your voice now. So I know. I know. And the age where we're all versus in screens in some way, when you get a voice note, it's like, what are you doing in my house? What are you trying to do? I also think it's interesting. You bring that up because there are a couple of people who've done that to me where they're like, I hate talking on the app. Like, let's just meet up or let's just text. And the first time it happened, I was like, oh my god, like, that is so bold. And I like that. But now I'm like, wait, that kind of scares me. Like, I do want a little bit of information. So I can like Google the person and like, make sure they're not like a murderer before I meet up with them. And also like, we have nothing to talk about on the text message either. Like, it's the same difference kind of. I don't know. It's just kind of doesn't work for me for several years. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm all forgetting off the apps quickly. Also, though to be honest, I think, tell me what you feel about this, but having been on the apps for especially through this COVID period past few years. In quotes. In quotes. Through the pandemic. Is, you know, like the apps have sort of made things a little less real. We're even if I match with somebody who in person, I probably would be really excited to talk to you. Like, I don't, it just doesn't, I don't get that stoked anymore because it just feels that much less real to me. Right. You know, like, you sit at home on the apps because you're bored, horny, lonely, whatever, throughout a mass extinction event. And then suddenly like, it just doesn't really seem that sexy. And I'm not. I'm not. I don't know. It makes me less motivated. I still will like, happily swipe through some people and be like, stoked when I get a match. But then I'm immediately less motivated to reach out and talk and like actually try to connect with somebody. I approach it like, you know, like, I approach it like a guy in his lazy boy playing video games. Like that on the apps. Like, I'm just sort of like with that same sort of like, classic expression. Just like, okay, okay. And it's so funny. I match with someone recently and I had the same thing. We're actually new to this person. And he's objectively handsome. But for whatever reason, I was just like, I'm not feeling this. I don't know why I've even, yeah, like I was just like, I remember meeting him in person and it was their revise. But I'm just kind of like, I don't, and it was just like almost this like tiring chore to text because like, I, and I wasn't even like turning anything on. Like he was like, what are you up to? And I would be like, nothing much. I'm not. Yeah, exactly. But that's my main problem with the apps. And I've said it on this podcast before. Is that like nothing replaces the like the chemistry of like when you meet someone one somewhere and you shake their hands and you're like, Oh, like this is exciting. What's this? Like, there's not that for me. But I think that I get more excited when I do know the part, like when it's someone that I like maybe have met or like worked with one time in the past. Oh, no, that's the best feeling. Like then matched with. Well, then see on the apps, but we were talking about this at the party last night that I was at someone said. Yeah, yeah. So I actually forgot to text you about it, but I was got together. I'm in LA for sure. What if you definitely would have gotten the text. No, but someone was saying that like when she like she's like seen people on the apps and like swipe right just because like just because she knew them just to be like, hi, and I was like, Oh, like not because you're interested. Like I would only swipe right on someone if I'm like, we've met in person, we've hung out. I definitely would be interested in hooking up with you based on that. But I guess like do [BLANK_AUDIO] you guys just swipe just because you know the person or are you only doing that if you're interested in them? I only do it if I'm interested in them. I've actually been in a work environment where a person who I had only spoken to, he was like a PA who was a lot of use of power. Wow. He was an intern. I said I was unfaithful. I can make you speak. I was a PA and he was on Raya and I saw I paid for a really expensive version of Raya because I wanted to find this crush I had in LA so I could see who had liked my profile already and I saw that he liked it and I was like oh god no but then I just like I didn't want to match with a PA on said where I like was just gonna see around. You're gonna see the next day. Yeah exactly. So I was just like and but then I felt so awkward around him but it was also helpful to see how men represent themselves on apps versus in person because in person he was perfectly sweet and kind of on the apps he was like filmmaker which you very well could be but I was also like your production assistant and I've seen a lot of filmmakers on these things that makes me think that makes me think it makes it really makes you think I see a lot of C.O. is a lot of C.O.s too. Oh yeah with no company listed. Yeah it's like technically you could technically be a CEO or a producer or a filmmaker these are things that you can just say and it technically is true. Yes I mean in some ways I feel bad like beating up on it because I'm like yes you can't be an aspiring filmmaker and a PA. Yeah it seems like you really do feel bad about that because like you feel really bad about it. I'm haunted I'm haunted by my behavior. But you know it's like only in America where we even would that even be like a thing that you mentioned you know like it's like it's so much of a factor anywhere else but you actually do. And so it's shame that it's something that I will look to really quickly but it's because it occupies such a huge part of our lives in this hell. Yeah it's true. It's true. Okay wait so this talking about people you seeing people you know brings me to the idea of Instagram. Aiden do you ever do you ever use Instagram as a dating app and what are your thoughts? It's such a better dating app. I have a friend who is a is a CEO. Oh and is it Mark Zuckerberg? Yeah it's Mark Zuckerberg. He's he's actually a lot hotter in person. Oh okay. He's hot enough in pictures. I can't imagine that haircut in person. You see the bottle of sweet baby raised back there? Yeah. It looks like someone took scissors and just cut across his hair. I know. Which from experience you know doesn't work out. I'm sorry continue your friend. My friend my friend CEO not Mark Zuckerberg says that Instagram is the best dating app. I always thought that was the craziest thing anyone's ever said. He's a great guy but over time I realized that's 100% true and ultimately that's what Ryan is like it's like a chrome extension for Instagram. Oh if I like how do I subscribe? Do I sell DM him on Instagram instead of just waiting to do that? How do I do it? How do I use it? It's like hey hey guys. I know that we didn't match but I'm trying. No I do that. I think that's a lot of there are a lot of girls that I've seen on Raya. I'm like I know you have a boyfriend and you're just on here so the guys will fall you and like it's been confirmed. Wow. We guys will just do that. Wait wait wait wait wait I'm sorry wait what's this the new thing that Raya is getting hijacked by people who are trying to make connections. Yeah. So you'll also see people being like looking for a relationship friendship or just someone to collab with music on and I do see that I am here trying to like hit and I am so hard. I don't need to do work here. That's such an L.A. thing that's so I know it's so awful it's awful. But you know I appreciate it and I think that actually like there are like I would as a creative. I do I would actually like if there was a nap that actually was good at facilitating sort of like collaboration in that sense. I don't know that it's going to be Raya but I like this they're trying I guess. But yeah I mean I think people a lot of people are on there just for followers. I don't think I've had actually I dated somebody for like eight months who I didn't match with Raya but we like I know I like message I like fall to run Instagram and like message sure. So you had access from a DM you had to I was about to say that I've never had access that way except that I literally dated somebody because I know of relationships that started with an Instagram DM. So guys listen. It's not talking about it. It's such a big sense. No I'm like just give me instructions because I don't know what I'm supposed to do. What was your DM that for that particular situation? Roughly you don't have to tell us be by beat we would like that but do whatever you feel comfortable with. I'll preface this by saying that I am on this other on this Jewish dating app called the locks club which is yes I want to get on that. Somebody invited me to it when I was starting and I it is like a pretty good app and there are a lot of like smart you know cool attract people on there full of love. But anyway one of the things that I forget this like message that was what they have Instagram handles on there too and I like you always go do the double investigation if you have any interest or or common sense right and I like clicked on the thing and a little alert came up that was like a lot of our female members that say men adding them and messaging them on Instagram who found them on this app is really bugging them. So anyway that was an interesting thing. Interesting. I wouldn't be but oh really because I wouldn't be bothered at all. I like them it. I was like that. This is I mean but this is the thing. It's like there's now there's there are there are there are women who will like adamantly assert to men that like some of the behaviors that other women expect and demand are unacceptable such as the Instagram DM slide where it's like ultimately if it's looking if if if fucking I don't know who's an attractive guide if like Austin Butler split into your DMs you're liable to probably right I don't know respond I would respond he's not my dad a fan he's not my type but I still of course I would be like okay so you think I like what doing here I I say I could eat kaya Gerberan under 10 seconds though I'm not I'm a little confused how the types are matching up but okay yeah what was this about will we talk about Instagram how did you successfully date someone off of Instagram okay well she was just fucking so embarrassing she she was a model under contract in the city I was at me from the Netherlands and I it was something like hey see that you just like move to your and you know how you like it you know how are you like oh okay that's not good yeah well you know just something like you have the most beautiful eyes in America that would be embarrassing either of guys it's embarrassing to be sliding into models DMs for sure I want to learn how to and I've shoot your shot I think that the cool thing about like whenever I get a DM once in a while in is I can always just be like if I'm not interested like delete it it is that's why it's yeah that's why it's the best dating app because it'll be there wait like the message's not going anywhere but you don't have to think about it you know what it's embarrassing is that I DMs chef Rose like five days ago and he still hasn't even opened it who's that him and his girlfriend broke up from Southern he watched Southern charm he's the chef yeah I was the teeth that are that need to be moved back well that oh okay we have to look into that yeah no we we have I keep thinking they're gonna they're gonna fall out of his mouth I'm like damn dude like his face was a lot smaller back then now he's like now he's like his brain he's like bloated and maybe he's grown into he's grown into it unfortunately for him but yeah what a scary show it's very scary and the times they are a change in because you are looking at that show I at least I am with a lens that I'm like I can't believe people say shit like this it's like it's like watching any movie from like 2014 where you're like wait what why is a man dressed like a woman and like that's fun yeah I know there's many things like that that are upsetting watching the hangover is a is a real oh that's a crazy yeah I have any raised thought about that movie I just watched the other woman and for a while like in the beginning it's it's Cameron Diaz Leslie Mann and Kate upton whatever happened to her also yeah guest story that she didn't like when people kneeled for the national anthem okay well she came up and she made a whole case about that oh you know her her uncle was spread upton is like a Republican congressman we got it okay the map is adding up so she's also married to what's his name that baseball player sorry going to no no you're right he's like one of the only baseball players that the only times like when my dad and brother are talking the only times I like chime in as if they mentioned someone who's been married to like a famous woman and I'm like oh him oh my god he's divorced from Kristen from Luganabeach okay um and they're like who um but the point was that I was gonna be oh so the movie is really good and it's guest-starring Nicki Minaj as Cameron Diaz is assistant and she's actually really natural and good and I was like wait why was this like moving out popular and then after like 15 minutes the first like transphobic joke I was like oh no one talks about that okay anyway I think the other woman was not necessarily a classic comedy for the ages not not necessarily not necessarily I became a millionaire overnight but lost everything that actually mattered. This person writes, "I just inherited a fortune after losing my mom, and now my girlfriend's entire family is coming out of nowhere with her hands up. Another vanished for four years and suddenly reappeared, and my girlfriend is already giving my money away." Hold on, Sophia, so the girl he wants to marry is already sending money out the door. And that's just the beginning. He makes a plan, sets up a trust, and finally thinks he has everything under control. To find out, listen to the Ok Storytime podcast on the IR Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Laurie Siegel, a longtime tech journalist, and consider my new podcast, "Mostly Human," your bridge to the future. Someone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build a nap, and it's very empowering. Each week, I'll speak to the people building that future, and we're going to break down what all of this innovation actually means for you. The reason I say agencies because if we can give power back to people, then I think that's probably the best thing we can do for your mental health. Listen to Mostly Human on the IR Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. You doctor this particular test twice in selling, correct? I doctor the test ones. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Some likes the greatest disinfectant. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Greg O'Sby and Michael Marantini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at America, Papakownia's Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges. This isn't over until Justice has served in Arizona. Listen to Love Trap podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so what can girls do on Instagram that is like a green flag? And also, do you think it's a turn off if a girl slides into your DMs as opposed to you sliding into theirs? No, it's not a turn off. No, definitely not. Yeah, I mean, actually, it's a problem. It's a problem, but absolutely. Why not? Why not? If they seem interesting, whatever, then I'll reciprocate and whatnot. Okay, taking this off of Instagram, I'm curious if you're on a date. Do you kiss on the first date? Oh, okay. No, no, I'm curious because I have follow ups. Okay. I'm getting, as I get older, the less likely I am to do that stuff, but the truth is, yeah, usually. But, you know, because it's like, we don't have time. I need to be efficient and see if this is a thing or not. But I literally, I wanted a date a couple of weeks ago and I kind of awkwardly at the end, she was going for hug and I went, you know, I went in for a kiss and really awkward and whatever and afterward I texted her and I was like, hey, I'm sorry if I jumped the gun or whatever. Didn't mean to do that. I guess it's just sort of like forced to have it. And she was like, oh no, it's fine. I just haven't. I don't think I've like kissed on the first date ever. And I was like, that's so crazy to me that this person is just waiting. Wow. She really thinks she's so much better than us. And I know a guy who basically told me, because I, I was going to his house and I told him later, this is after we had already hooked up, I told him later, like, oh yeah, when you're giving me a tour of your house, when we walked by your bedroom, I almost pointed at it and said, is that where we're going to have sex later? And he told me, when I told him that later, he was like, oh my God, thank God you didn't do that. Oh, scared the shit out of me and we probably would never have like even hooked up. And I was like, wait, really? If a guy did that to me, I would be like, okay, yes, yes, that is where we're going to have sex later. And we can do it right now if you really want. I mean, not any guy, not any guy, but I think like, I guess my point is if you like someone, it is boredness every turn off, even if you like someone. Yes. And it's like, I guess sometimes you just have to kind of give it a little bit of time. I kind of think you just know that. Don't you? Like, within a few minutes, you probably should know. Otherwise, maybe you shouldn't have babies, you know? But there is also like sometimes like a first day doesn't go that well, but it doesn't necessarily mean something. I will say that like in general, I think something that a lot of girls might benefit from is because I hear this talking. I can't wait. And I feel this myself, there is a serious death of reciprocity. And there's a lot of one side. There's a lot of like, I feel like I'm carrying conversations a lot. I feel like, you know, be that in messaging people on apps or like, you know, there is this kind of odd given our current sort of like, I don't race towards enlightenment between the many genders that like that there seems to become like, there's just like entrenchment of a traditional approach to really come back where I have no problem carrying more than my fair share of the burden of like all the stuff on a date, you know, I'm going to pay for drinks, you know, I mean, that's where. Yeah, yeah. Really? That's rare. I mean, actually, I've spent the check before on first dates, yeah. I find it kind of often happens this splitting. And I'm like, oh, okay. I look, yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I'm a believer in the, I kind of think that's just what you do. I also think though that in this day and age, it's incumbent upon the girl to offer to allow the guy to make the effort. I always make effort. That's just, that's it. We got to do the wall at dance. I do the wall at dance. I always do the reach. But even if he's already placed the plastic on the little like clipboard thing, I'm like, oh, I'm just getting my wallet out right now. Funny when you do the fake reach, it turns into a real reach. We're not going to stand like, okay, God damn it. Yeah. You still, you got to do it. Yeah. Like, yeah, there's a huge turn off when I just went on this like pay for it. And then the check will come back and I think, you know, yeah. It's like, yes, you can expect me to do it, but don't make me feel like it's such a fucking privilege to take you out that I just, you know, of course, and I actually had a, but it's such a fucking mix back too because one of the prompts that I used to have on hinge and I took it down because people were coming at me about it. It was like, it was like, it said like all pay for drinks if that's the prompt. And I said something like, I will obviously pay for drinking. Right? And I'm like, I'm like, I'm just going to pay for drinking. I'm just going to pay for drinking. and we like had like a torrid like three day love affair and on the second day on the first day I was like let's not have sex too soon on the second night I was like I'm so glad we waited it's like it's been 48 hours and I was like yeah yeah and I've been clocks are ticking I it depends I don't um I don't have a problem with it I think I don't either I haven't met someone in a while that I'm like oh this could be like a long term something I don't know if my like head would change that much about it but I do like you said like I like to be efficient I like to find out what we're like dealing with because there's so much emotional energy involved in dating that like I think that's why I want to kiss immediately is I want like that uh get it out of the way it's a gratification too like okay I want like I want a results I want more like I want to feel good from the state it's a it's a milestone it's also honestly like sometimes that's when you figure it out yeah and you get excited about the next day instead of being like wonder if this is the day we're gonna kiss even though waiting to kiss I remember once on like a third day kissing and it was so much fun because it was just so built up at that point but still I um at this point I think I'm just like after after years of quote unquote this the hoax called COVID I think that I like would destroy like a guy on a date just said of like pure first I have a fear of like we're burned down his house yeah exactly the last day or like the last good day I went on that I felt like I was vibing with the guy when we were walking towards the subway I just said like I was like I can't like I'm too nervous I just need to know if we're gonna like kiss and he was like um okay I would like to and I was like okay so then we need to walk out a different street because like it was so crowded on the street so I was like okay so then we need to go somewhere else and he was like wait I'm having second-hand awkwardness for this like I was just like I was like I can't kiss you like on Smith Street it's like literally so busy no it's so busy like so then we keep going fucking guy then he's like then he's like wait right here and I was like no the lighting's like really harsh so I was like how about in this park so we go in like a dark park and he's like this is like kind of creepy but anyway we like made out I'm scared I'm scared to we made out and you're like in this alley no and then we had to stop because there was a ruckus and we were like wait what like it was working and people were in a fight so then we had to leave and I was like well I guess that didn't work out that great but my preference is always if someone's like do you want to just like come to my apartment because then at least you can have the first kiss in like I don't like to kiss on a busy street is what I'm trying to say like I just I like to kiss in the middle of the street and make traffic stop no because everyone knows you're like kissing for the first time and it's like it's just oh my god I went on like a coffee day recently and there was like it was people were away too close to us I felt so awkward yeah they can hear you saying like do you have siblings and you're like oh god tell me literally just put a knife to my throat I'm trying to think of like the first kiss as I've had in public it's terrible it's I don't know I'm like I'm okay with it I am yeah yeah yeah but I would never tell like a guy like let's go to an undisqued location to however first guess what's wrong with that I'm embarrassed to be seen with you uh no one can see this no one can see this listen I'm sorry I thought that was actually like respectful of me to be up front with what I want is that is so it's so it's so damn it's so perfect you can't say to a guy like like this is how much I want to kiss you right now like I think some people I know I'll go and I usually go in for like I totally normal human kiss just in case it's like very cool like very short and sweet and like I've had guys going for a straight up make out where I've been like okay I guess we're doing this yeah you have to have fun yeah yeah there's an exploratory mission that needs to happen prior yes yeah you know you got to do a little use something yeah but also I think girls can really benefit from knowing that they they absolutely should take the initiative and do that it I think that's the very that's like a very sexy thing to do it's a guy isn't getting there yet okay you know what I mean so but not on the first date yeah no I point out okay um if you like a girl to you I'm curious about how guys think because I think this way as a woman um we how old are you eight in I'm 30 like our age okay so are you at the point where when you like a girl you think about marriage right away yeah yeah okay that's okay here because I feel like I'm at the point where like when I have a crush on a guy I mean unless I'm just like okay that guy like is just looks like he's gonna be really good in bed and I'll just have to like explore that for the most part if I have a crush on a guy I'm thinking like okay and then he lives here so we could have like a house and upstate New York and well I mean I've always thought that way though like I've always been like a hyper planner and there've been very there's only been a couple of guys that I've dated that I haven't thought like I've thought like there's no future here but I feel like right away I'm into like I'm into future stuff I get but that's like a fault in mine too I like plan too quickly yeah I'm I think there's a stereotype about about God love fuck I mean what southern charm right where they're all like like their whole thing is st. single and you know until they're 50 and that's all their conversations revolver on this shit yeah where we're like what's his name Whitney is like mother oh my god that is that is dark that is a that is brutal I don't truly truly don't understand what who who would fuck those guys is not crazy okay that is a mystery well the one that wants to jail is it's hot but he you know Thomas he's an attractive guy like but not as soon as he opens his mouth okay sure okay sure yeah I think Craig Craig and Chef we would both probably say yes to uh chef Craig chip or the perfect people who you would be like I cannot foresee a few shirts together because Craig did say he was physically conservative but I would have happily like meet you on a dance floor and they like like you would you would be like a 3 a.m. call multiple times which is Craig again the one who looks like 19 he has dark hair and he's like in the last school yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah well it and we've taken up an hour and a half of your time we've had such a blast I lost this was great this was awesome thanks so much for having me we have to ask you is there any any final thoughts you want to share anything you want to promote anything you want to clear the record on yeah I think you want to get in front of anything that's about to break that you want to release a statement on dude I don't I think dating sucks it's probably always suck that's true yeah especially when you couldn't date you had to marry whoever you're actually when there was like simplest guys when there was syphilis and it made holes in your brain like I think there still is no still wait but now now do you remember when they like told us that gonorrhea syphilis and coming out they're gonna kill us if we got it yeah I kind of vaguely remember that in sex that yeah do you know that you can just it's like one pill I know you take like a pill and then you're cured of it but if you get herpes you run on leave that you wrote one of those your last thoughts it's not that bad yeah yeah I just that practice the pullout method I think it works the best and I don't completely disagree but okay you would be surprised I actually did take it seriously in sex ed when they were like you like will get pregnant if you are not using any form of birth control I would say 90% of adult women I've spoken to have said like oh yeah just like pull out and I'm like wait I thought that was only like in teen mom towns like towns where teen mom people are like no it's like it's the most common and yet we're under the I read stuff I read like articles and stuff that'll talk about you know like oh sex education is it whatever and it'll it'll talk about like you know condoms and and it's like yeah no most adults I feel like are just doing the fucking rhythm method yeah yeah like back to the 40 I'm not I'm not wait I guess I've been way too careful I'm about to change my it okay I'm not I hate that I know I don't want to leave your views with an endorsement of unprotected sex I feel like maybe they they can make their own choices we all know what we're I mean talk about a gamble that's what we're really gambling on chef rose doesn't use condoms no of course not of course not those guys they've got a part of their like trust fund that's just child support abortions yeah uh good luck out there oh I like that yeah yeah we're gonna need it for yourself be normal and be and be understanding and be normal is probably the best advice be understanding kind of people because I feel like I feel like so much of it's it's so callous the way that we go about well everything but dating especially and I think that it makes it harder for you um if you aren't like you know treating people nicely because it comes back around and bites you in the but the but I think that it's funny they are telling us to be kind when Devon and I are like and if a guy has a newsboy hat on go fuck him well that is no that's a line too far okay thank you yeah yeah and then and that you're saying be normal when I just said that I asked a man go to go into a strange dark park with me as opposed to not here not here not here yeah yeah so I think we're doing great I think we're doing great I think we're good for good aiden thank you thank you thank you this was so fun thank you honestly you're welcome to your DMs because I think they're about to fill up that's up let's hope let's hope ♪ I wanted was a little love ♪ ♪ I want true romance, it's true ♪ ♪ True romance, it's a romantic ♪ ♪ Love me baby, don't leave me hanging ♪ ♪ I want true romance ♪ ♪ I want true romance ♪ I'm Lori Siegel, and on my new podcast, Mostly Human, I'll take you to some wild corners of the tech world. I'm about to go on a date with an AI companion and add a real-world cafe right here in New York City. Anyone can now be an entrepreneur, anyone can build an app. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1, including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels, and plenty of mis-hap scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. 1010 Shops 5 City Hall Building Could this have happened in City Hall? Somebody tell me that! I screamed, get down, get down, those are shots. A tragedy that's now forgotten, and a mystery that may have been not have been political, that may have been about sex. Guaranteed Human.