Male Friendships, Loneliness and AFL Culture w/ Brandon Jack

This is a Triple J podcast. - The male friendship group itself is something where you do want proximity to people, but if you get too vulnerable in that proximity, then you open yourself up to ridicule. - Hey, Dee here. This is the hallcap where we talk all things love, sex, dating and relationships. And we also chat about stuff that's happening to you or important cultural conversations. And recently we did a whole episode on the male loneliness epidemic. It's a vodcast, it's on YouTube, you can listen to it on Spotify, wherever you get your pods. But basically, people and I investigated how this political and social issue has changed over the years, right? We unpacked what the research shows and a bit of a spoiler. If you haven't listened to that app, men aren't more lonely than anyone else. There is an increase in loneliness for everyone, but it's not an epidemic, a term that's usually used when we talk about a public health crisis. But what was really interesting, and this is something that we unpacked, was that men are actually more socially isolated. Guys are more likely to have less close friends than women. And those friendships are less emotionally connected, deep or meaningful. And we heard from so many of you about how you're feeling. And a lot of you told us that you find it hard to open up and be vulnerable with your mates. You also said that you felt really boxed in as a man on how to behave and you felt a lot of pressure to act a certain way. You know, whether that's like being really strong and stoic and participating in banter and bullying. So in this episode, we're gonna unpack that some more with author and ex-AFL player, Brandon Jack. So recently, Brandon just published his second book called Peacance. And the book follows a bunch of young AFL players and the mischiefs that they get up to. They do so much unhinged stuff. They are like the shit kickers in the team. And they basically have a really surface level friendship, right? There's a lot of peer pressure, hanging shit on each other, taking drugs, stealing things, trying to get laid. And it becomes really obvious that these guys feel like they can never be vulnerable and they can never show any signs of weakness or cry. Because if they do, they're gonna get taken to peace out of. So in this episode, we're gonna chat about those kind of hyper-masculine environments and friendships. And Brandon will talk about how he went from being in those spaces to now reflecting and having some really beautiful, vulnerable friendships where he can talk to his friends about absolutely anything. He's also got some really great advice if this is something that you are currently dealing or struggling with yourself. So let's get into it. Brandon, thank you so much for coming on the hookup. - Dave, thanks for having me. - I'm so excited. I just told you before we jumped on air that I thought you were such a brilliant writer. You're really funny, but I felt really triggered by your book. But you knew that you warned me before I read it. You were like, some of this might be a little bit. - Yeah, knowing how adjacent you are to that football world as well, I think I should, I almost sent you like a little note with it being like, just here's a caveat as you go on. But thank you for those nice things. I hope, you know, everyone gets something different from the book. I wrote it hoping people would find it funny, but also sort of hoping that it would trigger people in a way. I didn't want to write something that was kind of toothless and that everyone agreed with. I think it's, sometimes you have to write something that pushes people the wrong way to get something from that. It's a conversation start off, you know? - I feel like when you've been posting reviews on your Instagram, there either been like five stars and people absolutely loving it. And then there's been like zero stars and people been like, this book is so crude. It's disgusting. - I have a friend whose job it is to go on to Goodreads and find me the worst of the worst reviews. 'Cause I can't, my ego can't handle it sometimes. - Yeah, no, you can't look at the comment sections. - So my best friend, Dom, once a week I'll say, "Hey, can you go find me another one?" And he'll reply straight away with one. And it's always just like, "This is the worst book I've read. This is not literature." And I'm just like, "This is so awesome." - I know for a fact that some of this is real. I've heard about these things. But then some of it is just so unhinged that I was like, wait, are they actually like shoving drugs up their arse? And some of the things that happen, it does make you go like, wow. - It's kind of, that's why I think, I was the right person to write this book because there is a question in your mind reading, well, like, how much of this is real? And then it kind of becomes this stronger version of satire because am I making this up? Or it makes you question your own beliefs about football plays. You think, could a footy player do this? And there's a chapter in the book, which kind of proves it more than either, a chapter early on about nicknames. And the nicknames of all the characters in the book are explained, but the nicknames get progressively more unhinged as that chapter goes. So it starts off like pretty, pretty classic footy club, just like dumb banter. And then by the end of it, you kind of end up with these two nicknames, which are just like gross nicknames that are, I don't want to explain them, but they're just nicknames that are degenerate. And you can't imagine that being used. But as that chapter progresses, you kind of are like, well, where does the line get drawn here? So the book's a deliberate exercise in that way as well. - Yeah. And despite some of it being maybe over the top or like over unrealistic of what would have happened, I feel like you absolutely nailed the portrayal of like the hypermasculine environments like a footy club or anywhere where there are groups of guys like that. I saw parts of the characters in my high school in some of the guys that kind of bullied the girls or bullied people in school. And I felt like you really also nailed the portrayal of male friendships where there are based off of just hanging shit off each other or bullying each other. Or if anyone does anything slightly vulnerable or different they get made fun of and the friendship just relies off of that and there's so much pressure to fit in. Have you experienced these kind of dynamics yourself? Like what was that experience based off for you? Like writing about it? - Yeah, definitely. And I did, to be honest, I did research. Sometimes I pretend I didn't research for this book but I did a lot of research outside of just my own life. And when I was looking at male friendships and the way they were portrayed in different mediums, there's a couple of things that jumped out. There's quite common groups that occur in different archetypes in that. So for the in-betweeners, for example, which is that UK show, that nails the portrayal of a male friendship group. You have this certain balance of like the dumb guy. You have the funny guy who just says outrageous stuff and then you have kind of the intelligent one and the leader and that became a sort of basis for this group of piss ants and Irvin Walsh was transporting is my favorite book of all time and piss ants is kind of an Australianization. That's the word, I don't know, I'm making that up now. Kind of an Australian version of that. And that exists in a group of a bunch of heroin addicts in Scotland, but this is a bunch of footy players in Australia, but the dynamics are same. So there's different archetypes that exist within that but the male friendship group itself is something where you do want proximity to people, but if you get too vulnerable in that proximity, then you open yourself up to ridicule. And that's something I've definitely felt and it's something that I know a lot of men have felt and still do feel and it's a real gray area for me as well because in this book, I wanted to explore, well, what would happen if you then tried to like take that away from that group? How would they go? And it's almost, it's lonelier without it. So there's a character in the book, Elliot, for example, who is on his own the whole time traveling around Europe. He gets contrasted to the pishands who at least have each other. And yeah, sure, they hang shit on each other and they bully each other, but they still have each other. And I think I kind of, when writing it, felt that I would somewhat rather be that than the guy on his own. And that's the allure of it for young guys. I think you still want to be part of something and it comes at the cost of those friendships being quite shallow and fragile at times. - Yeah, and it's human nature to want to fit in, right? I think those ages as well, when you're in your teens and you're late teens and you're trying to fit in and figure out who you are, like it's so easy to just kind of follow the popular group or follow like the place or the group where you feel like you'll be accepted easily just by like following what everyone else is doing. It's been a really interesting cultural conversation lately around, I guess, like masculinity and the way that men sometimes might act in friendships and that kind of thing. And I saw an article recently, "Classic" on TikTok by this guy called Michael Kimmel, who he wrote an article back in the '90s that was peer reviewed and it was called "Masculinity as Homophobia, Fear, Shame and Science in the Construction of Gender Identity." And he basically argued that masculinity is actually something that men want to prove to each other, to other men, and he argues that masculinity is actually about homosocial validation. So it's to validate your position as a man within the social hierarchy and prove, and to prove that it's who's the strongest, who's the most masculine, who like suppresses their less, like their feminine traits. They try and make sure that they're coming across as like strong and tough. And have you seen this play out yourself in your own life? It's like, guys are actually just performing masculinity for other boys. - Yeah, I've seen this stuff my whole life. And I went to university and did an arts degree. So I read Kimmel. - Love that, love that, Flex. I'm like, "Well, I saw it on TikTok." - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, that's great. - But it's funny 'cause I kind of lived this stuff my whole life, but then I went to university and I studied sociology for a bit. I was my major of an arts degree. And this idea of hegemonic masculinity, right? So there's this ideal male archetype we have, which is the guy who'd be the best at everything, which is what everyone aspires to be in a masculine culture. But not, you can't ever be that single thing. So you pick parts of that. You could be the strong guy, the smart guy, the funny guy, and then that becomes your identity. Because within the framework of masculinity, and for the listeners at home, I'm making a triangle pyramid symbol right now to kind of get that point across. Because it then gives you a space inside that. And inside that is safety. And that's why you then see that anyone who threatens that pyramid of belonging for men, so when women kind of get involved, and homosexuality as well, is kind of put on the outer as well. Anything that threatens that heteronormative male existence is shunned and derided and pushed as far away. And if you resonate with any of that, or show any of those traits, you then risk getting pushed to the outside as well. So it kind of creates this ecosystem where you have to be a certain way to fit in. But by doing that, you're offered protection. But then by doing that as well, you push stuff about yourself so far deep down that it will eventually cause you pain and make your own existence not as enjoyable. So, you know, I was 10 years old playing rugby league and walking down the street on a footy camp, drinking beers with my teammates. I was pretending to drink the beer. Like I put it to my lips and didn't actually drink it because I was like, well, that's what we do. Where foot do you place? - What other parts of yourself do you feel like you might have had to hide or suppress in order to kind of fit in and appear more traditionally masculine? - Definitely my interest in riding was something that for a long time at a footy club, and this is interesting because at a footy club, it's hyper-masculine, like you say, but it's also concentrated around this idea of just football is a be-all and end-all. So for me, at my time as a footy player, it was anything that looked like it was taking my attention away from footy, I would push away. You know, these vulnerable conversations as well, I don't think I had many vulnerable conversations or would cry in front of anybody in my early 20s. I think, you know, I obviously cried, but it would always kind of be off on my own 'cause I had a few difficult things going on in my 20s, but sometimes you don't really know, you do know who to talk to, but you don't want to do it. So I think that's a pretty common experience. And yeah, I just, and still to this day, I still feel at certain times that the pull and the urge to just act a certain way because it just makes things easier sometimes. And that's annoying. It's annoying that that's how it is, but sometimes you just don't want to fight it. - It's hard, isn't it? I feel like anyone listening will be able to relate to that no matter who they are or how they identify. We recently did an episode about the male loneliness epidemic, which I mentioned at the top of this episode and research shows, we'll talk about this just before as well, that men actually aren't lonelier than anyone else. If anything, the research shows that women are slightly more lonely. But what we found in this episode, which was so interesting, is that men are actually more socially isolated, right? Which is I think a huge part of where this conversation is coming from because research shows that men have less close friends than women. They have less meaningful and deep relationships with people. And when we asked our listeners on our Instagram, we had guys who messaged in like Ty, who said, "I don't have male friends close enough to confide in. In the friends I do have, they would take the piss if I was to open up." And Riley said, "I have to suck it up so much or else I get taunted. I can't express emotion without being made fun of." You see this in so many of the characters in your book. They will get made fun of for crying or for showing a slight snippet of vulnerability. What has your experience been with your friendships? - So I'm 31 now and I feel very lucky that I kind of happens where you eventually, I think you just end up with a few close friends. And I would say I have two really, really good friends. One I played football with and one who I met through music and arts and culture and stuff after. So, and that's Dom who finds my good rage reviews. - Love you Dom. - Yeah, thanks Dom. And I would feel comfortable telling those two, like anything. So what we mentioned before, I've been very open about mental health and I take antidepressants and I have done for a few years now. And that was a thing that like, I didn't even consider hiding that from them. Like as soon as I was told that I could take them, I called my friend Dom and I told him and it was just like a normal conversation with him. And then the same thing with my friend Lloyd. And I feel very fortunate to have those two friends. And I don't feel like I need any more close friends. I'm quite content. I'm a bit of an introvert. I'm quite content with just those two. I don't have a group of 15, 20 friends who go away on weekends and I don't have that sort of friendship group. But I'm very fortunate that the two close friends I have, I feel like I could tell anything to. And I feel really bad hearing that people are out there and sad that people don't have that. That maybe they do exist in a footy club environment where they have 15 transactional friends who were just there because they share footy together. And I know how hard it can be to make the deeper friendships. And there's a chapter in the book and it's called The One That Got Away. And it's, I think it's the biggest, one of the biggest gut punches in the book. And it's a chapter where the guys are sitting around at kick-ons, the core group of piss answer at kick-ons and they're drinking beers and having drunk discussions. And then one of the guys starts telling a story about a girl he went to school with who he was quite close with and that girl passed away from cancer when she was still in year 12. And then the chapter kind of just ends with the characters all looking at their feet almost. And it's thankfully my editor, I actually had it go a bit longer, but my editor was like, that's where we end. Like that's where this book, that chapter ends, which was a very powerful moment. And you get the feeling in that moment, I think it might be where you start feeling sorry for them a bit where they just don't have the tools to have the deeper conversations. And as such, they're just sitting there like looking at each other, knowing that each other are kind of struggling, but not knowing what to say. So perhaps there's a bit of empathy that comes in or sympathy, you probably feel sorry for them. - Yeah, that was my takeaway. And this resonates with like what our listeners were DMing us about. Like Sam said, well, very drunk one night, I told my mates I was struggling a lot and then after never had any of them reach out. It's almost like- - That sucks. - In what you've written about, like in that paragraph, generally a lot of guys don't know what to do. Like they might say like, yeah, obviously be vulnerable. Like I'm here for you mate, like open up. But then when they are given that vulnerability, generally can't handle it or just look away or don't give the response or change the subject. - Yeah, I think about this stuff a lot. And I think that the way it's channeled, and there is care between the players in the book, I think you have to read it and be like, they spend so much time together and they clearly pay so much attention to each other's lives where they come up with these ridiculous nicknames and they know all the stories and they constantly what's happening to each other. So there's a real care for each other, which I think comes from the desire to be around others and to have connection to the people around them. But they just don't have that, whether it was not taught or whether it's something they just, they stop themselves from engaging with, they just don't have it where they can't access those tools or they don't wanna access those tools at the right amount of time, which is probably a result of being in, like we said, that hyper-masculine environment where if you do access that, it might be seen as a sign of weakness and it might be seen as a chink in the armor that somebody can get at. So I had a close friend of mine explain the book 'cause they have never been involved in football culture, they're in the arts world. And they said, for them it was like a window into a world they hadn't seen and a world that they normally wouldn't wanna engage with and a world that they'd normally avoid those people at the park. If they saw those people out, they'd avoid them. But the book forces you to spend time with them and to maybe understand that they're not inherently evil people, they just don't have the skills that they need and how much is their fault is kind of the question you should ask. - We actually had vulgar drawings on the pod, I think it was a couple of years ago and she recently did a piece on Instagram about the male loneliness epidemic and she actually said that we should reframe it and call it a skills epidemic of like, it's just a lack of skills that men aren't taught and you see this in research like, parents are more likely to use emotional language with their daughters and they are with their sons and you know, it's like women sit in, or girls sit in circles at play time and at lunch and guys go off and kick the footy. It's like male friendships aside by side friendships you sit and you do something where women are kind of taught to like sit across from each other and talk and you can look at it from a skills perspective and see that it's something that like, generally a lot of men aren't taught. - Yeah, and I sit around a lot and wonder the impact of that sort on me in my life 'cause it still doesn't come naturally to me and I'd like to think I'm quite forward thinking and I do a lot of work on myself and I'm very open to learning new things but the ability to have those conversations still is bloody hard for me sometimes. Like even with my own brother, the person I'm closest to in the world, I struggle with that sometimes and even with Dom and with Lloyd, these best friends I mentioned before can still be hard. There's a tightness in my chest sometimes and I used to do a bit of op-edding freelance journalism stuff and I would kind of write these pieces where I would say like, just do it, just get out there and do it. But I was like, well, no, it's so hard to do sometimes and I need to be honest with myself as well that it's not as easy as saying, just do it. So yeah, it's something that's, you know, when you think about all those lunch times been kicking a footy around, didn't really learn the skills that might help but then you look at those moments as well where maybe we just get the joy from kicking a footy sometimes and you see that instead of deriding that and being like, we need to completely remove that and go towards sitting in circles and talking. You're like, well, this is how we can still connect in a way, see the value on that. - Totally, just mix it up, get everyone doing everything and don't gender it. - Yeah, exactly, exactly. - Well, how did you get then, you know, you're saying it's still quite hard for you but how did you get to a place where you have been able to talk to Dom and Lloyd from potentially coming from those like really hypermasculine banter hanging shit on each other friendships where you might not have had the same kind of dynamic and openness in your friendships. - Relationships, it's like all relationships it takes time, right? Friendships are built upon, for me, it's time and trust and sometimes you click with somebody instantly. So for example, Dom, me and him, we were mutual friends through a few people but we clicked just, I don't know, sometimes you just get somebody and they just get your sense of humor or the things you talk about. So that was a interesting friendship that happened for me in my mid 20s. So a bit later than a lot of friendships but sometimes you meet somebody and you just click and I think it's good for, you know, it's very easy to get stuck in your friendship groups especially if you're in a sporting environment. It's very easy to, that's why I'm sometimes quite grateful I got out of a footballing world 'cause I don't think I would have met the people I have. I would have been stuck in that world and my best mates would have been the guys I play footy with. I think it's really worthwhile getting out there and trying to meet new people if you aren't finding what you need from your existing friends 'cause you can try and change it and you can maybe open it up to them but sometimes it's just not gonna happen. So there's no harm in going out and trying new things. I don't know, go rock climbing or something. Try and make new friends with new hobbies and then, you know, through there you can possibly find these deeper connections. - Yeah, I was gonna say, what's your advice on? - Go rock climbing is my advice. - For anyone listening who is struggling what about advice around having, like it is such a scary and vulnerable thing to do but like trying to create a dynamic in your friendships like you might love your friends and you might feel they are more like you than your old friends or whatever it is but then how do you get to that place where you can open up about going on antidepressants or whatever it is that you're struggling with? - Yeah, again, it kind of, if you feel you can just say it to them, like just say it, just really, really try and if they don't respond, I think one of the texts before so that somebody did open up and they didn't get the response they wanted, don't feel bad for trying, that's their response and something I really think about now is when you can't control somebody else's response, right? And they've got their own stuff going on their life so it's not a reflection of you and that you've just opened up that they can't accept that. That's them and perhaps they're not ready for that. Perhaps something is stopping them from opening up as well and don't let that stop you though. So, try with some people and if it doesn't work then try again. Every time you do it, at least you're opening up and I've had that experience where you open up to people and you don't get the response you want and they kind of shut down but just realize that not everyone's ready for it, sadly. - Yeah, well, how's the skills yet? What's your advice then for being on the other side of receiving a kind of more vulnerable? - Wow, this is my years of therapy are coming in. No, it's just funny 'cause I was like, I remember in my 20s, early 20s, mid 20s, I was that classic male who would listen, who would get told things and I would try and problem solve it. I was a freaking problem solver and I thought that was the way to help. I'd be like, I can fix this for you, do this, do that or maybe try this and you kind of then learn over the years that people just want to be listened to and be told like that sucks, like that's what, and when I talk to somebody, that's what I want as well. You just want somebody to see you and to hear you for a second and honestly, if you have a friend who opens up and I have a lot of male friends who have male friends who still aren't great at this, I'm like, just say that sucks. Just say that whatever's happened sucks and listen and nod and that's all people want sometimes. So more genuine listening and less problem solving is what I would say from men. - Love that, that's definitely relatable. It's like, I just want to hug. What about your advice for anyone who's feeling boxed in by this idea of what it means to be quite and quite stereotypical man? - I think there's probably some generational changes that are happening. Well, I do see the younger guys now and I still am around a footy club a little bit. So I see, you know, 18, 19 year old kids and I think it's less rigid than it was when I was at age about 12, 13 years ago now, but it's still there. Yeah, I think that knowing that it's not always easy but spending the time figuring out who you are and finding your own authentic self will serve you far more in the longterm than prescribing to any kind of given idea of who you should be. And that might stick in somebody's brain and in 10 years time make more sense than it does now but for me, I learned that a little bit too late. I was always just doing the prescribed masculinity thing and I got to my mid-20s and went down a real dark hole of, you know, drinking a lot, taking drugs and really feeling down about my life as a result. And I now find far more value and happiness in life just embracing who I am and knowing that, you know, I don't have to go watch the 40 if I don't want to watch the 40 or I don't have to stay out drinking if I don't want to go out drinking. I can say no to things. I can say yes to things. I'm my version of whatever masculinity is meant to be. - And it's just so simple, but when you just genuinely say no to something that you want to say no to and just like give yourself a second to align with how you actually want to respond to something or what you want to do. And then you do it and then it just like builds this level of trust with yourself, you know? - Yeah, fighting off peer pressure. I mean, you feel peer, I think we think peer pressure is like a teenage thing but you still feel peer pressure in your 30s. It's always there. And you feel like you're, sometimes I feel like I'm letting people down if I don't go out and see them, but they're not your real friends if they're going to get upset about that. If you put yourself first and that's fine, you can prioritize yourself. In fact, we should freaking prioritize ourselves. - I know, yeah. - Brandon, this has been such an awesome chat and I think it'll be, yeah, so beneficial for so many young guys who are listening and feeling constricted or boxed in with how they should be showing up in the world as a man or within their own friendships. So thank you. And for anyone listening who wants to read "Peace Sands" or wants to know more, what are the dates? Where can we find you? Where can we... - The dates are walking to your local bookstore. - Yeah. - Because I'm very big on supporting local bookstores. I think that is the book world needs these bookstores. I need them. You need them. We all need them. Go into your local bookstore and just ask them if they have "Peace Sands" or if they don't, just ask them to order it in. That would be my preference. 'Cause screw Jeff Bezos for the money. (laughing) Thanks. - No, I'm not crazy. Thank you, Brandon. This is great. - Thanks, D.