Malcolm Offord: the election interview

Pipsyys, kuten pysy, että joku on joku. Känä, Vistefi, kautta autovakultus. Tulevaisuuteisi, Fennia. Pipsyys, kuten pysyys, kautta autovakultus. Tämä on seuraavaan intervasti. Tämä on tullut, että joutuu muistaa. Tämä on joutuu. Tämä on tullut, että joutuu. And there was, and isn't people might remember in Edinburgh, where there was a chap in one of the visiting estates in the west of Edinburgh was carrying nice. I don't wanna go into too much of that because there's a police investigation, there's an active case on that. But I think you'd said, certainly this is way it was reported. You'd said in a kind of gathering with a think tank, you said I think all you need to do is look at the pictures. They tell the whole story there, we've got a problem with the legal immigration. And there was a bit of one thing, and maybe you backtracked a bit, but did you think you missed it there? Because somebody as a leader of a party has got re-responsibilities. In your words, carry far more weight. Looking back on that, is that a fair representation of what happened and if it is, you regret it in any way? - So, interesting this, because I took a taxi to that event, and by coincidence or not, the taxi driver from that area. Okay, and that's what he wanted to talk about. Obviously, he recognized me. He wanted to talk about, he said, this is what we think, this is what we saw on the ground, is what the community said. So he was reflecting what the community were saying. And then he showed me the pictures. And perhaps in that environment, I should have said, well, this chap's gonna become to court, let's wait and see. But I just sort of feel that the public feel that they are being, what's the word I'm looking for? They're being slightly patronized, people are not seeing what they see in front of them. I just made a comment to say that the local community are scared about what's happened. They are very, very upset, very, very unsettled. Portions are just completely stoop on the matter. And what he was saying to me is, look, this is what we are seeing. People are worried, and we've got an issue here. And I reflected that, it was just instinctive. I reflected it. And I said, look, I've seen the photographs, I think we've got an issue there. And then I said, let's wait till tomorrow, because this is going to go to court and we'll find out. That guy might have taken all his opinions from Facebook and passed them on to you. And you're effectively then passing that one. And here's the issue. Do you think you know Scottish people? Well, I think I do. Do I think I know that. Can I judge question? Does my instinct tell me that I'm talking to somebody who's telling me, honestly, what he believes? Do I think he's in some way up to no good? No, I think he gave an honest account. And I think my judgment's good enough to work out whether I think that's an honest account or not. And I reflected it back. And that really is a trademark of the way reform. I behavioral forage has been absolutely. Part of his success, his political success has been based on what he would call that authenticity. And speaking the truth, some people find unpalatable, but really mean a lot to a lot of people. And I suppose that's what makes reform quite a divisive party. Do you understand why they are divisive? So there's two sides of this coin. So what we're accused of is we're whipping this up. This isn't an issue. You're whipping up. You're whipping up local people in our communities. And that's divisive. My answer is it's the exact opposite. I'm not looking to whip up anything. I think politicians should reflect the people they represent. And if the people come and say, "We are very scared, unsettled." We don't feel we've been listening to. We don't think our concerns are being rightly treated properly. I think as a politician, the honest, and maybe the brave thing is to reflect that. What about eight weeks out from the election? Let's be record this. How do you think it's going to be? The campaign's going to be quite brutal, isn't it? As I'm learning. But why not? Because there's a lot of stake. And at the end of the day, I believe the people in Scotland have not been well-served in the last 20 years. And I'm my ambition for Scotland. It's so great. I believe that we. I've got a vision for prosperous Scotland, a successful Scotland, a happy Scotland that I don't hear any of the current politicians speak about. So if I want to win this argument, I've got to get out there and take the punches. It's interesting, isn't it? You were on question time, I think, very shortly after. You just mentioned it. You're exchanging a few on a Bruce. That night was Paisley Town Hall, I was a student. And on that panel, were traditional adversaries. You know, Russell Finley, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives, there's Stephen Flynn's there from the SNP. People who normally go 10 rounds with each other quite happily. And they were like a band of brothers at some point. Kind of arms round the shoulders united against you and your own. Yes. Well, I mean, what was that like? And are you ready for more? I'm absolutely ready for more. Not because I'm a natural pugilist, but because what I see is a group of people closing ranks that I'm suspicious of a bit of a cozy consensus. And I say that I think a little bit in the mainstream media as well that there is a Hollywood, bit of a Hollywood bubble with a number of professional politicians and a number of media operators. There actually coexist in its own level. There's no question that reform is a disruptor. We're actually here to disrupt it, because we actually think things could be a lot better. But if you're going to make a normally, you've got to crack some eggs along the way. And there's no way of hiding that. We're not in for cozy consensus. I'm more ambitious with Scotland than that. And if you're going to be ambitious with Scotland, you need to be striving something better. It's quite interesting, isn't it? Because I think one of the kind of fundamental aspects of the human condition is people quite like to be liked. A lot of people, I'm quite, I'm getting quite a lot of flack in my work. You learn to deal with it, I suppose. But I mean, you're a divisive character. A lot of people in the country really don't like the part you stand for. That will transmit on to you. There will be a lot of people out there who very specifically because of the job you do now do not like you. Are you comfortable with them? Look, I've been observing a lot of people who have never met in my life, writing a pining about me and who I am. They've never met me. They don't know me. I know who I am. And I'm blessed by the fact I've got a lot of good friends who know who I am. I've got a good grounded base to what I'm doing. I'm coming at this from a point of view of we are underperforming in Scotland. We need to raise the game. We need to get more ambitious. We need to change what we're doing. We can't have just more 20 years of mediocrity. We can't have that. And if you were taking that into the world of sport, whether it's your football team or rugby team, you don't want a coach that's just there going from mid-table mediocrity. You want to win the league. You want to win the table. That means sometimes you have to be abrasive and sometimes you have to tell uncomfortable truths. As long as it's true. As long as I believe what I'm saying, I believe I've got a message. It will resonate with Scottish people. And I think as long as I'm authentic and consistent, they might not like to hear a first-time round, but I think they'll come round to the overall ambition that I have that actually I want to improve everyone's lives. Have you lost friends over this? Yes, yes. I have. I mean, not why I would call to be my closest friends. I mean, lost. But situational friends. Certainly, I've lost some friends clearly in the Conservative Party, who are friends, no longer friends. But that's because we're in this business. You have to roll with that. Have I lost a close buddy? No. Have you lost any personal friend? I mean, out with the Conservative Party, who will think you did the dirty one and they'll probably get over it at some point, whatever? Just because of the party that you know, the rosette you know where? Yes, I've lost people to their backs. Yeah, a couple of people have said to me, we just can't support what the party stands for. And I've said, well, yes, but you know also what I stand for. But it's. And the main distinction, yeah, we know you're different, but now you've got that badge. We just don't want to be. We can't support that anymore. So yeah, I've had that. How do you feel about that? I feel that that is a sacrifice that I have to make if I believe in the cause of what I'm trying to do. I want Scotland to be successful. I want people to have more meaningful lives. I want us a better public services. I want us to have communities. We don't have that at the moment. There's no point in me coming on the show and just giving Pat C. Warrant's more of the same. We've got a whole bunch of politicians already doing that. I'm coming at this from a position of change. People don't like change. People are scared of change. The human condition doesn't embrace change. But every time you've had change that has worked and made things better, people look back and say it was painful, but it was worth it. It's quite interesting though, isn't it? Because you've moved from the conservatives to reform. You're by no means unique in that. In fact, there's quite a lot of people who say the reform part are just bunch of old Tories, right? Because of the number of defections that there have been. And yet there are people, there are friends in your personal life who've said I could absolutely be on board. Are you being conservative? But reform? No, that's too much for me. We can't be friends anymore. It's because of the branding. And I happen to think the branding is unfair. And part of what I'm doing and doing what I'm doing is to say that we are putting forward a positive message on everything we're doing. Because we want Scotland to be more successful. But we have to do with some tricky issues. Some really difficult issues. And we can't just ignore the communities who say who feel these are not being dealt with. You've never had to deal with anything like this in your life before. You kind of out your comfort zone in this. When you're losing friends, when all that kind of stuff's moving on, you're going to have a hard shell. Look, I think that in anything in life, you can settle for a quiet life. I'm afraid I've never been in that category. I always wanted to get up and away. When I went to Greenark, everybody from Greenark went to Glasgow University. Well, I went to Edinburgh. Why was that? Then when I was at Edinburgh University, everybody went to work as a lawyer in Edinburgh, Glasgow. I went to London. Why did I do that? And then started a banking group. I said, I didn't want to do banking anymore. And I moved to a pay cut to go and do a different job. Why would I do that? I've always sort of taken-- eu pob hur hystefi oithio fwri gitti expecting ni eithio f AR Cozy交ófel fel yn a gostoig leg i given ar gyda dawn fwy wn yn y rhwy Kane fertileig ac at y gofyan. A tepat ar y dybag worru, unid am bod yn a'r erhafau yn y prwyddyn. A tepat ar y ddorel i Setfordig fod wedyn gof changedag cynwaeth prepare și Maaol mewn mewn'r ytwyrยgu ger மod ym來說 a'r roedd rwy ris aur yme occasional ac maeield. Muelygu felly digende i'r sylch cosarync yn jaillad. Btw, rwy'n ei wneud wrth i d facial gwyli gallwn gyda prepare lle patan bfryd отметan cadu yn part catalog ar unaillag. Mae'r ysgol gwyli? Mae'r arddol. Mae'r ysgol gwyli yna ddod yn y prynnych ar y pwysio. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli yn arddol y sgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. Mae'r ysgol gwyli. нет i fwy Agorac ac wytu gorweith. Mae ati chi Reli Whileis C Therefник prompted eu y'n slim cra g saw, Elijah Merch am Fy, alt heb gy Une De wogi y Formi Barth Was. Mae'r central declarer a gyngraedd i'r Ballad eu ag iawn� o bleol ag iawn a wnaethau du fweith, maethau god. Mae 'Ogol ei Schol发 nie'n i'n oss— ac mae'r goendum er o fo これwr dydnieth sydd i hmw í llrefog ним. dar lw魔 i. At gwann i-ith first pet, lefnt op Hi Skyydd hyrge mywiraeth aẢ PO a'r uyd הprynsaid hwnnwwy i'r gydan hy smellsill lefnt. Ond o'r hon Alice Corbyn i'r E neu heddiwio gynniol magneticio bot ynefbaf, Mae'n eraindu i Chong יrgy début anwll' got mae ni'r ffantwa'r sg şritch dioliduoaodellingiaol i chi dewny. wesniad fodi oedderg fel oedd farny Palŭa. Gillen beth oedd cynta, rhywun cynta USB, â cynteta nigg i'r ac mae dawi fel genn Tough heartbeatol baul口 sefydigio yn oedda erocusnny gan i honewnwbethod y cyfwheel. eraw wrth pass , mae ia mewn dy fy ei personalitortau oedd sydd instructors. Aceona ll itg. Didgwn i fel Barnaeffwe hamad, cy tem fjourdau hw de구�nte gan wedi yn kontiıyor μεchwowan sоеan, mawrneud בעwn gwasgrifio a ff rydnw i gyda sref éur Mod much Ayef childish. Ysg nou rhiddaeth gwydedzio gweithio felly afrundiaeth di Patrodeddaeth dai cronyndiaethau gwas borni' gwnaeth y giud o frïdiher yn ystodach gwczynny'r siarw ityn a aw nickel-nnaethion. D вижу, ond gwnaeth amsgiseddu i cara mewn pan gwrsfa. Bych ai dat не guРwch, fydbaash, yna e�chwng ni him yn hagys動io a a ddaoni ond gwag mo fe sut thparf spти i yna er siffer Farbithorawn caelol ennw shroud ac gambraeth o beth. Itad canslean ac baswch barwithons wnea'r Candi Pench內 aainwgern y buodぁ crygu ymgysplan collectingor at a-ringorawn cael ei monen. Allatgyito pan yn gyfl cabllwch yan panion trying hisolf gwbrosywn ar pench genor awn aèg ysol— safwych gwaith yr aryn f steer ar crybu difn 93 oed o faint eseating ar因為 yn ein gestagd brawn i dyn nu ei lwylo? Ond sy'n mudo siithraeth plugging ar Mentpidawynt sy'n cael ei'n gwaf i oddої ac yn ymg i'r pan yn ymg i'r pan yn ymg i'r pan. Mae'r pan yn ymg i'r pan yn ymg i'r pan. Mae'r pan yn ymg i'r pan yn ymg i'r pan yn ymg i'r pan. Mae'r pan yn ymg i'r pan. Mae'r pan. Mae'r pan. Mae'r pan. Mae'r pan. Mae'r pan. ac yn ni'n mi'n credu o'r gwaith anwdol gan ymwysio. Mae'n mynd, mae'n mewn mewn amdol gan yurei a gwaithaeth ydol yn canw i'r gyda'r amdol. Mae'n mewn amdol gan argynoddau gwaith? Gydyn yn mewn amdol gan argynoddau gwaith, mae'n mewn amdol gan argynoddau gwaith. Mae'n mewn amdol gan argynoddau gwaith yn argynoddau gwaith. Mae'n amdol gan argynoddau gwaith. Donald Trump is a good leader. Donald Trump knows what he's trying to do and he's got a team that supports him in that endeavor. You can argue about whether you agree with what he's trying to do. You can argue about how he does it. You can argue about how he goes about it. But what you can't argue with is he knows what he's trying to do and he's very decisive in how he does it. Do you think he's doing it the right way? The thing I would observe over the Trump Presidencies is that there's many times when you can wints about what you hear. But what's more important is about what gets done. And I would contrast that with a Bama who was very, very good on the words and got a lot of things done. My Bama didn't deal with the whole Iranian issue. That Trump is now having to deal with. Bama didn't deal with that. That's what Trump's having to deal with. At the end of the day, he's very results orientated. He wants to get things done. We may be able to find out why Obama didn't deal with it. We may be able to find out that dealing with it is a very, very difficult and expensive business. You'd make a friend of yachting. Why do you like yachts? Because it wasn't allowed on them when I was a kid and you always like what you can't have. I grew up in a modest household where we were well looked after and educated and the local schools and all that. But there wasn't any spare cash. And we didn't start having it live. I mean, the first time I went to a restaurant was when I went to university. There were been to a restaurant all the way through my primary school and secondary school. And every morning I'd opened my curtains and look at the riverclad. And there were these yachts out there and they just looked so alluring. And I wanted to go boating. But I wasn't the deal. I didn't afford to do it. My family were not into that concept at all. So I didn't do it. There's always been a niche I just had to scratch. I wanted to learn how to sail. And so six years ago, age 55, I was having a conversation with a chap who I knew at the rugby club, who I knew was a sailor. And I said, "Can I learn to, can I, is it possible to learn to sail later in life?" And he said, "Well, he said, "Have you done your sailing?" I said, "No, I've not, I've not, I've not been on a racing boat." He said, "Well, you need to get a coach." So I went off to get a coach. And the first thing he said was, "Well, the first thing is you don't buy a big boat." Because you'll just be, because if you do, you'll just be the idiot at the back who can't drive it. So you have to learn to sail in a small boat. So I did five years sailing a little boat called an "Echels." An "Echels" is a 30-foot boat with three-foot. be men in the boat done on a weight limit and I had to learn how to sail. This is racing, this is not offshore, this is not the fast net race around the world. So this is in the soul or in the Clyde, round what's called round the cans where you've got a bunch of boats lining up on a start line and you're racing to get to the first boy, the second boy, the third boy and back again. And every boat stands on the same line, the same size of boat, same sales, same wind. So why is it that the boat's one gets there quicker than the other? Because some people just seem to be able to sail the boat faster because there's a real craft in how you set up a boat, the sales, the trim of the sales, how you hell met. And I was racing against like a Laurie Smith who is in the racing world, there's a bit of a legend, there's one world championships and nationals, etc. And there was one moment when I was in the nationals, but last year we're actually managed to, my boat managed to crash, I'm sorry, to cross to cross his boat. That's a big thing in racing. Can you cross? Because if you cross, you get to the mark first and I'm asked to cross him. And it was only that, and to me that was my world championship. I'm asked to get to the mark before Laurie's back. But I just say to my coach, what is it that, why is he always faster, getting there faster? And he said, if there was a drone above his boat and your boat and you watch him going, he would be going to straight line. You're zigzagging. But hang on a second, you're talking about beating this legend or crossing this legend of yachting in the nationals. Are you really good at this? I found out that I have got an ability to help my boat. I'm able to steer, I'm steering, I'm on the tiller, I'm steering. So I'm not doing any of the sale work or the trimming. But I found that I was able to steer a boat. And the other thing about it was that at the same time I was starting the politics. And politics is quite, and then is a very intense experience. And I'm now seeing all the more intense. What I discovered is when I'm on the water, it's where I can completely empty my mind. I haven't got time to think about anything else. And I've found it very cathartic. But in the back of your mind, when your eyes are fixed on the tail tails and everything else means nothing, even in your subconscious, you know, wait, is there that little kid from Greenock thinking I've made it? Yeah, yeah. I'm doing something that I was not able to do as a child. I'm living my life in reverse. All the things I can do that I'm doing now. And I get a real enjoyment of it, but I want to win. I'm trying to win. Now that's ridiculous. There's no way I can win. How can I possibly win? Having only been racing for five years. But then that's why people say to me, how can reform possibly win? Right? There he is. There he is with the foot with the foot, with the stump speech. I want to win. It's interesting. It's really interesting. You know, you know, that guy you spoke to in the rugby club when you were 55 and you said, can I race at this age of my life? I was reasonably similar to I weren't with a cameraman right, who was big international cameraman, great guy, and he had a yacht, right? And he did, life had been good. The game had been good to him. And he had a yacht and he used to just endlessly talk about this yacht. And I said, is this something I should be interested in? Is this something? I mean, you're so enthusiastic about it. Is this something I need to experience? And he said to me, do you know, if you really want to get the full experience of yachting, here's what you should do, you should stand under a cold shower with all your clothes on, ripping up banknotes. That's what it's about. Because you need a bit of dough to be in that game, don't you? Yes, yeah, for sure. But at the end of the day, there's a sense of satisfaction to have something you couldn't afford that you work hard for. You appreciate it the more, right? It's money important to you. It's money important. Money is not the root to have in this. Money helps. Money helps. No, don't ever patronise that. And particularly people who don't have money. I mean, to not have money is painful and difficult. I remember I just shouldn't go into the cash point. No money came out. I mean, literally, I remember not being able to go on a rugby tour to Kenya at the time. I just hadn't saved my money. And I went off and walked in a bar. From that moment on, I said, never again, I'm not going to have money. And I just saw work as a means to making money. So, yes, money is important. But at the end of the day, it's not the beyond end. It's what it can give you. It can give you security. But it also gives, in my situation, it also gives me the opportunity to do something I'm doing now, actually, which is the ability to actually make a contribution. So then let me refine that question, right? Because there's a difference between being comfortable and being rich, right? And I'm very lucky. I'm quite a comfortable life. I can go on holiday, eat every year. I can, you know, I know that if I want some money for a beer in a Friday night, it's there for the whole Imagine Second Ballon, you pair, that's fine. But it's not really my God. I'm not really driven. I'm not really motivated that much by money. But I am very lucky. It's being rich important to you because you are very rich. I think if you're competitive like I am, it's just, you see it really, this is a means of keeping score, don't you? But that, I got to a point where I didn't, I was fine. I was done. I didn't want to do that anymore. I'd sort of, I'd proven that I could succeed. I'd proven that I could be the boy from a company school that went to London. I was the only person that they recruited not for a private school. I'd proven that I could, I wouldn't know when I'd run them. And that was what the job was done. And I was happy that I'd done that, but it was time to move on and do other things. Now, having said that, I now know that I do know that I'm authentic doing this job because I don't need to be sitting here with you. I don't need to be doing this. I don't need to be taking the pelters and newspapers that I'm doing. I have got options to do other things. I can be having quite a nice comfortable life. The fact that I'm not doing that tells me that I'm really driven to do what I'm doing. And I know I'm doing it for the right reasons. Yeah, you're definitely driven. And that kind of, I'm the boy from the company school who came up and got better than I beat them and did all that. Is there a, now don't take this the wrong way. I'm just asking because there can be different ways to read it. Is there a bitterness in you a little bit? Just that, you know, you've had to, you've had to fight that bit harder. You've, had you didn't get the advantage of something, you grew up in the tenement and greenic without much money around. No, that, but I say as an edge, I mean, you used to work better, but there's definitely an edge. And I've used that edge, I've fueled that to create success. And I have the same edge about how you go into this pot, is that I have an edge to me on this, which you're, which you're beginning to see. People said, "Oh, the gentlemanly offered will struggle in this bear pit." There's an edge to me. I'm I know I have that. And I know I'm driven. And I know I've got a vision for Scotland that I know we can deliver. So, but no, I wouldn't use the word better. I mean, look, to be honest with you, at the time going through, I always felt I was on the back foot. You know, I didn't really get anybody doing me any favors. I had to fight and scrap. I'm not always exaggerating this, but certainly in a career point of view, there were certain people who would seem to get favored more than others. I had to, I had to work to get where I got to. There wasn't better, but there was definitely an edge. So, so the sleeves are rolled up there. Are we going to see the gloves coming off? And what do we see if the offered gloves do come off? Well, I don't want to run a, I don't want to run any personal tags on anybody. I don't bear any, I must say, to anybody, the opposition I'm up against, I have no, I just have opinion on them other than that in their job, I think, when they're under performing. Right? So, my, my, my mission here in the next eight weeks is not, I do not want to run the negative campaign. I'm a positive campaign. I want all the airtime I have to explain to Scottish people what I think we can deliver for them to make Scotland more prosperous. I don't want to waste my time criticizing other people when I think they're under performing. I will criticize the performance and I'll criticize the state of the nation that we're in, but it doesn't need to be personal for me. Sure, but I mean, I think everybody agrees it's likely to be quite an nasty fight this in the next eight weeks. If it gets nasty, are you ready to fight? Well, I will, I will do what I need to do, but I believe in being professional. I have a, a, a, a vision that I want to articulate. I believe that I'm right. I believe this can be done. And I want to focus on that. Just, just briefly going back where we got into this, just by talking about money and drive and all the rest of it. Now, I know you're quite protective about, about your level of wealth and there's, I mean, it's nobody's business, but yours and all the rest of it. And I'm not going to ask you how much money you've got. But is it Tom Hunter levels of, how levels of money? I mean, you know, you know, look, this bites of the boats. We're, wherever you go in the world, someone's got a bigger boat. Right. Right. Who cares? Yeah, enjoy your boat. I think a few people will be interested. So here's it. Right. Okay. Let me be right. Well, what is it about Scott some money? We've got, we've got an interesting relationship as a nation or as a people with money. Don't there's, there's a, there's a, there's a bit of a tall poppy attitude in Scotland to that kind of stuff. If people grow too big, we tend to chop them down a bit. Have you, you know, if you go back to greener, can the Maserati, do you get, do you get a sense of that? I, what do I think about that? I mean, I think, bite to going to the city of London, very wet behind the years, not worldly wise, not in a world that I, that I didn't know. I mean, I'm giving an example of what else. So I turn up in my fancy bank in the first week, right. And I've got this funny accent, you know, everyone else is speaking and sort of posh English, I've got this funny accent. And I'd been in Hong Kong. I didn't know how to have the proper suit. I had, I came back with a sort of disco suit. So I'm dressed all wrong, send me all wrong, whatever. And, and this, I always want the director to say we've got fine new graduates arrived. We need to give them something, we need to celebrate their arrival. Let's do something for them on Friday. And they said, well, why I don't have a wine tasting. I'd never been to wine tasting. So I turned up at the fifth floor in the directors' dining room and there was a bottle of there with a silver tray, whatever. And there was a table with all the wine lined up in the order. And there was a cute one end, and everyone with a clipboard is working at what wine they're gonna drink. And I thought, well, I've never been to one of these before. But I'm into pricing, Scott. There's a cute at this end. There's not a cute other end. So I'll go do the other end. So I went down the other end, grabbed the first bottle, poured myself kind of hands and measure, thinking I would get tucked in. And then the lovely old boy that recruited me to Lazard to a chance on me, put his hand on my arm, generally said, Malcolm, said, don't drink that. I said, why not? He said, that's the olive oil. (laughing) What does that tell me about you? So he said to me afterwards, he said, well, then you know that. It was covered in brown paper. I said, well, where I come from in Greenland. I said, the serve of the wine. (laughing) So this whole thing about money and success, you are who you are, where do you come from? I know who I am, I know where I come from. I work hard for what I have, but I am absolutely clear about how people live their lives. And I am absolutely determined to improve people's prospects in the come to you. And that's what I'm driven by. Are you a nationalist? In any sense of the word? A nationalist versus a patriot. I don't know, could you be described as a nationalist? British nationalist, I don't know. You know, if you're championing your own country and putting it to be a nationalist, don't have a good track record, let's be honest. Right, it's not, it's not, it's not, I wouldn't describe myself as a nationalist. I would describe as a nationalist, isn't it? British. Is it a clappy archetypal British nationalist? I mean, championing Britain and putting a quote British people first, is what you would see. I would, I'm very proud to be Scottish. I'm very proud to be British. I want the, and I would call myself the American version that would be a patriot. And nationalist at the point where I want to put, to the disadvantage of others, no, no. But I do want us to be the best we can be and to improve the lives of the people we have here. So pick your language. What would you mean by a nationalist? Well, I don't know. I mean, I suspect championing your country, putting it first to all costs, you know, your Trumps and American nationalists, because it's America first, it's all that, it's shut down borders, I suppose, depends what kind of nationalism, right? It's a pretty vague term. But I would, if I was, you know, if you were to ask me to pick a party that was particularly nationalistic, I would probably say reform is near the top of the list, particularly because of its immigration policies and it's protecting the people of that country, all that kind of stuff. Well, to the extent that, for example, I am pro-British and I believe Scotland is best served within the UK and that was more important to me, for example, to be in the UK than for example, to be in the EU. Take that as an example. I wasn't particularly proud of that. It didn't mean a lot to me personally part of the EU, but it really mattered a lot to me part of the UK. If you want to call that nationalist, call it nationalist. Yeah. It's, I mean, on immigration, you did a document a few years ago now about how you get Scotland. Scotland, Scotland in the union, the union, why Scotland should remain? There's a load of reasons, a kind of roadmap. One of the reasons you gave is that we need to promote immigration if we'd secured a proportionate share of UK immigration in the last 30 years. Our population be a million higher than it is just now. It's aging, we need more taxpayers. We need to target perhaps the 3 million British overseas nationals in Hong Kong. That would be a great start. Still believe in that. Yes. So legal immigration. Yes. Really important. Depositive. Controlled legal immigration, where people come here with skills, with adding value, they come into the workplace, they add value to our public services or indeed to our private sector, where they effectively make them more in than they take out, where they integrate with the local people and help to improve the skill set of our own people, all for that. And in fact, our immigration over the last 75 years has been controlled. That was written five years ago. But your party's policy is going to net zero immigration. No, no, no, it's not. That is absolutely not the case. Oh my gosh. No, no, no. No, no. Reform supports controlled legal immigration. We support, for example, filling skills gap with controlled legal immigration. That was written five years ago before the Boris Wave. That was talking about the fact that in Scotland, within the controlled immigration, we had a less than percent to share, a less than 8 percent share of immigration. Right? And that was just pointing out the fact that at that time, Chinese, the Hong Kong Chinese, with the British section, were given, been given British passports. My idea was let's get them to Scotland, because they would add a lot of value to Scotland. What's happening since then is that the Boris Wave is with low skilled immigration. Low skilled immigration, okay? And that's been what, five, six million people, of whom are third or unbenefits. That's not what it was meant to be. Right. Because because I see that as an economic terms. I see that in economic terms. We've got our own people who need to get back to work. And the way to get back to work, sometimes start a low paid job and work your way up. And I am quite particular about the fact that in our economy, we need to persuade more of our own people who are economically inactive back to work. And if we give all that, and if that means you give away all the entry-level jobs, the low skilled immigration, you're cutting off your own people. You're not giving them a road ladder back. You're not giving them a pathway back to work. Here you are saying if we'd secured a proportionate share of UK immigration, a population would be a million higher. That was talking about over the last 30 years to control immigration. If Scotland had, did 8%, Scotland didn't get 8%, if Scotland had 8% of what had come into the UK, it would have been a million higher. Do you understand Scottish nationalism? Where are we going to talk about nationalism? I know you don't agree with Scottish nationalism. You're or Scottish independence. You're on the opposite, very much on the opposite side of that argument. But do you understand why somebody would be of the mindset that perhaps this country might just be better? We might be better off as a country. Maybe not economically, but the country might just be a better place to be around ourselves. Yes, I completely agree with that. I mean, if I was sat here with, I've said this before, if I was sat here with Cape Forbes, we would agree on most things about how to make, about wanting Scotland to be successful. I just happen to believe that whether we like it or not, we're joined, we're on Ireland, we're joined at England, when we've got Wales and Ireland, we are one ecosystem whether we like it or not. And the disruption to our economy of separating that is not worth the candle. I don't think it's worth the candle. I think what I'm much more interested in is making Scotland the most successful part of the UK inside the union, inside the UK. That has not been achieved. That has not been delivered by the SMP. Perhaps they have a agenda that they don't want to deliver that. Maybe they don't want to prove that Scotland be the most successful part in order to fuel this idea that the only way to do it is to separate. I believe we can make Scotland the most successful part of the UK, using all the benefits of the UK. But intellectually, you respect Kate Forbes' assertion that Scotland would be better running its own. No, I didn't say we could be better run. I think that Scotland can be very well run inside the UK, and Scotland could be independent. Of course, any country or family could be independent. But I'm saying that the levers we've got, we can be more successful by staying inside the UK, is my point. You've led me to the obvious way. How could Scotland be independent? Let me ask you about John Swinney's proposal that if he gets 65 seats or more at this election, that that is a mandate for another independent. No, it's not a mandate. It's not a mandate. But so you said about that. Not a mandate, because he's going to. He could end up being the lowest share that the SMP have had. It could be a third of the electorate, and you can't separate a country in a third of the vote. About six months ago now, you told the Holyrood sources podcast, Alex Salmond, you deserved the referendum that he won in 2011, because he got the majority of seats. No, no, it wasn't that. There was about three and four. He said he'd run the country. Let's just go through it. I gave a list of things. Number one, he did win a majority. Okay, that's important. That's important, Mario. Number two, the question hadn't been asked for the previous, what, 30 years? Number three, there was consensus in Westminster and Holyrood that the question should be asked. And number four, there was appetite for the Scottish people to have a referendum. There was a number of things now. It's not written down, because we have an unwritten constitution, we don't have a written list. But I've just given you four things aligned to create a consensus that we want to have a referendum. Right now, there's no consensus in Westminster or Holyrood to have a referendum. Scottish people do not want another referendum. How do you know that? Because all the polls suggest that they don't want another referendum. Hi, I heard you answer me. We don't want a lot of good, it's better to vote one. They don't want to. They do. They don't want another referendum. What do they want is good public services. What they want is the country-owned prosperous. They don't want the division and ranker of another referendum. And the question was only asked 10 years ago. So it's completely different set of circumstances. So the next person who's going to be in that seat for one of these interviews is going to be John Swinney coming in a few days' time. If he was sitting in the corner of the studio and I'm waiting his turn to come and replace you, he would be sitting there saying, "Well, what do I need to do? What can I do about this?" And your answer to that is nothing. You know, I would say to them and I will be saying them, "Why haven't you prepared the country to be independent?" That's what you want. Why haven't you made Scotland successful to be able to stand on his own two feet? Because he would say-- Why haven't you, why haven't you got Scotland in a position financially to make that move? Why, for example, are you running a 12% deficit when the EU says you need a 3% deficit? So why are you running a 30 billion deficit when it should only be eight? What have you done? If in 19 years, what have you done to answer that-- so from 2014, what have you done to answer the currency question? That was a problem in 2014. What's your answer? 10 years later, what work have you done as good custodians of the dream? What have you done to advance the case and make it more likely for Scotland to be more successful? A economically culture, everything. What have you done to make Scotland able to go alone? And the answer is they haven't done anything? I know what you would say to a lot of that. You would say, "But the currency question, we do have a plan." You might not agree with the plan, but we have a plan. And economically, we aren't where we would like to be because we are walking with shackles on. And as soon as those shackles are freed and we have the levers and the ability to do and the freedom to do whatever we want, then this country can really get the wind under its wings. It's what you would say. The numbers don't back that up. You're not buying it. I'm not buying it. I'm going to now get into the last phase of the interview. And we're asking these questions to everybody who comes in. I think you know you're going to be asked them. It's just interesting. We've told it because we're going to ask them to everybody. By the time we get to the last person in that seat, they'll know what's coming. So we've kind of primed you for this. But people might find them interesting. Firstly, what is your most unpopular opinion, do you think? Well, we've just touched on it actually. And it was certainly the most unpopular opinion when I was in the Scottish Conservatory. It was one of the reasons that I was why I left. But I have e-commerce naive. I have an opinion which is unpopular, which is that I actually believe that nationalists and unilists can work together. I actually think that rational unionists and rational nationalists can work together and call us around one thing to make Scotland successful. They were the they were the conscience another time. But can we just agree now? Let's say if I was standing with Kate Forbes. Can I say the guy I would like to work with? I think I would work very well with Kate Forbes or Fargo's Union. She's stuck to the league. Fargo is union, you might not be in. Not giant swimming. No, because I don't believe he actually has, I don't think he has the same ambition for Scotland being successful inside the UK. I think we can get rational asses and rational unions to work together and say, "Please Scotland first, let's make Scotland the most successful part of the UK." But that is an unpopular opinion. On both sides of the. On both sides of the equation. You don't think John Swinney is a rational nationalist? No, I don't. Because if he's a rational nationalist, he's been spent the last 10 years preparing Scotland for independence. So you won't be able to work with him collegially if he becomes first. I don't think we share the same ambition. I think he's got a different ambition for Scotland than I have. So you don't see a scenario where you can work collegially with him? Well, no, I don't. I think that there is a. What I'd call a middle ground where if you take the ideology away and you take the sort of the. What's the word I'm looking for? The religion of it away and just be rational and say, "How do we make Scotland successful?" I think we can coalesce around that. But as I say, that's an unpopular opinion on both sides of the way. What's the most Scottish thing about you? Where does your patriotism really demonstrate itself? Well, I mean, oh, I'd say what other people said about me. I went to Edinburgh and then I went to England. People would tell me. But I have a bad culinary appetite for Scotch pies, sausage rolls, and my first job was at Oldsabayk here in Greenwich. I did the night shift and I was on a donut run and I developed an English part of the type of Scotch pies. When I went to Edinburgh University, I always had Scotch pies with beans on top. I basically lived on Scotch pies with beans on top and when my drink at my university was McEwan's export. So Malcolm was known as the guy with Scotch pies McEwan's export and it's the same one I went to London. Now, when I was export minister, not the Cuenes export. I was three years in the government. Two years in Scotland, I was asked to jack in one year this export minister became a binoc. And I did a little video on the 1st of April and I put it in, I said, I'm now got permission from the Prime Minister, Rigesunik to change my name and I got the officials to put up a new desk name for me to say it was the McEwan's minister for exports. So that sort of stuck. What's the most Scottish thing about your I love a pie? When do you last have a Scotch pie? Most days. I mean, I just went on the way down, I just grabbed one on the way out. It beans, you know beans. Here today, this is now. Yeah, this morning. You've eaten a pie in the last two hours. Oh, yeah. Interesting, fantastic. Good performance. What kind of music do you listen to? Well, you know that. Well, I do because you, so here's the story. You named your boat dignity, didn't you? No, my boat is called Brave Heart. Oh, Brave Heart, but you spoke about the, that's probably the most Scottish thing about you got boat called Brave Heart, but you spoke about dignity, they can blew some dignity. Yes, because the press were outraged that how can this guy afford a yacht and how can he possibly be first Minister of Scotland? Okay. And I just quoted back and I said, well, they'll ask me how I got her. I say my money. I'll say it, isn't she pretty ship called dignity? And that is, and we can lose my favourite man, then that's my favourite song. So I text you trying to stir up a bit of trouble because that's kind of the un-appetising part of my job. I said, Mark, would you come on to the, our podcast today to talk about this row between you and Dick and Blue? And he takes me straight back and said, no, I really don't want to fall out with my favourite band any further than I already have. I mean, I take it, there's no olive branch has been extended between you and Ricky Ross. We never met each other, but I've been to a lot of these concerts and I was at the end of my casual concert a couple of years ago. So, you know, leave it at that. He came back and said, we really object to anybody from reform using the lyrics to our song. It means the opposite, but listen, see that why Scotland should remain document it was talking about earlier on. Here's a line you said in this. You said, I agree money should never be the only reason to stay on a happy marriage, but be sure before you close that door, before you roll those dice, please think twice. Did you know that was a Celine Dion lyric? It was, you're well spotted. Are you a Celine Dion? Well spotted. Are you the only press that's picked that up? There you go. There you go. It's the please think twice from Celine Dion's mega-selling third album. You're a Celine Dion fan? I like Celine Dion. Yeah, you're quick to, you're quick to de-comblood with a Celine Dion, right? Right, last question, last question I'm going to ask everybody here with the election what two months away. Just give me a prediction. How many seats you're going to get? More than is considered. I'm not going to give that number, but here's the thing. We've gone, in the last two years, from 0.2% to 20%. Now what the polls say, if John Curtis was here, he would say that's going to give you, let's say, two dozen seats. But the big thing, the MMP poll last week, Martin was interesting, because they said, okay, we're in second, but what it said is out of the 73 constituencies, we're in second place in 54. That means a week, if the dam breaks and we start winning constituencies, this whole thing changes completely. At the moment, not a single commentator, not a single pundit, the same we will win at any constituencies. All I'm saying is that we're in second place in 54 at 73, and we are ambitious to win constituencies. Just give me a figure, roughly, how many, give me a broad figure, I'll give you a spread of five. How many between 20 and 25 seats? That is where the money is. The money is on 20, 25, I think it will do better than that. More than 25. That's, yes, more than 25. Interesting, really fascinating. Listen, before this podcast ends, I have to, I have to confess, you gave me some real credit there for spotting the Celine Dion look. It wasn't, it was my colleague Natalie Higgins, who's spotted that a mile. Give me a sneakhead. It's a credit tag. Yeah, no, it's credit whereas you, I wasn't trying to, I wasn't trying to distance myself. Listen, it's been fascinating talking to you. Malcolm offered. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks Martin. Good to be here. Skullcast. We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the Dark Web. Undercover in the furthest corners of the Dark Web, US Special Agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move it now. From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get to your BBC podcasts. [Music]