Malcolm Gladwell #4

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Buck Rogers and I'm joined by Lily Padman. Hi. Hello. Today we have our friend Malcolm Gladwell. Yes. Five-time New York Times bestselling author, journalist, podcaster, Revisionist History, our favorite podcast. So good. That's so good. His books, Outliers, Blink, The Tipping Point, What the Dog Saw, David and Goliath. His new book, which I would argue is his most important to date, is called The American Way of Killing, An Invention of an Epidemic. He brings to light some elements of this debate we've never even heard or thought of and they're so- Fascinating. Yes. Mind-blowing, really. Yes. He said something that has changed an opinion of mine for good. Which was? I don't think I should say it. Oh, okay. You don't want to ruin it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah. There was several for me where I was like, oh, wow, that's the opposite of what I thought and I need to recalibrate. Yeah. It's so, so good. Please enjoy Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, also, I've been zapping my face if you're watching this. I don't want to pretend I haven't. Okay. Enjoy. We get support from Quince. I have to say, I am so ready for fall. I want sweaters. I've been craving a true crisp morning where I actually need a jacket. I can't wait. I'm fully there. The second it dips below 70, I'm like, this is my. This is my season. Give me the layers. Give me the boots. Give me a reason to wear something other than a t-shirt. And honestly, that's why I love Quince. Because fall is when your wardrobe actually has to show up. And everything at Quince is 50 to 80% less than similar brands. We're talking 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $60. $60. $60 for cashmere that you'd expect from a luxury brand without the luxury price tag. It's amazing. Gets me every time. It really shouldn't be real, but it is because they go straight to the factories. They skip the middlemen. And they just hand you the savings. 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This episode is presented by YouTube Premium. YouTube was already great, but Premium's supercharged. If you like YouTube, you'll love Premium. Try YouTube Premium for two months free at youtube.com slash premium. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. Now let's get into today's episode. For more information, visit www.patreon.com/patreon. - Hi. - Hi, Monica, how you doing? - Just discovered you guys have something very essential in common. - We love the heat. - We really do. - I mean, look what she's wearing. - And I could use a jacket. - She's in all black. - I'm always cold. I could easily have another layer on right now. - Yeah, it's freezing in here. - We'd be a terrible married couple, you and I. - We come from hot environments. - I know. - That's what I was gonna say. - My people are, you know, and your people. - Exactly. So I think it all-- - We love a hot, humid day, y'all. - Really? - We love it. I mean, humid is getting less comfortable. - I don't mind humid. - Really? - Bring it on. - Bring it on. - No issues with it. - Now, do you have ideal running conditions, though? You must. Like, you're not dying at jogging humidity, are you? - I don't mind. I'm indifferent. - Now I feel like you're just being disagreeable. - This morning was perfect, I thought. - Did you run this morning? - I ran in Griffith Park, yeah. - Nice. - Oh, right across the street. Oh, do you run up to the observatory? - No, well, I didn't feel like it. This morning, there's a towpath that goes around the perimeter. - By the zoo? - By the zoo. - There's the freeways right there. - Yeah, yeah. - You run along the freeway for a while? - Yeah, and then on the left, eventually, there's the zoo. - And around the golf course, there's a loop. Yeah, I did that. - Nice. - You're running by the zoo and you maybe just don't know it. - Oh, really? - That enormous parking lot. Do you see the Gene Autry Museum on the right? The, like, Western Museum? - Another thing we have in common, we're not observant, clearly. - I'm not observant. - I just wanna say, right out of the gates, this is really, really, really up there for me, this book. I loved it so much. I mean, it's really kind of rivaling "Tipping Point," that joy I got when I first was exposed to the way your brain works. This is really an incredible book. I can't wait for people to read it or preferably listen to it, as I did. Do you have any reservation about starting a book about guns in America? - Why would I have reservations? - Because- - I love that answer. - Yeah, I can think of a bunch of reasons. It's a very polarizing topic, right out of the gates. - Yeah, people are scared to talk about it. - You know if you do, your job right, you're going to offend both sides, which I would argue you've done in a very satisfying Malcolm Gladwell "Why I Like You" way. There must be some level, I don't know, maybe you do or don't wrestle with it. I have my opinions about guns. I also have this terrible understanding of two-thirds of our house would have to agree to get rid of an amendment. So part of me has this, is this a Pyrrhic pursuit? Can anything really be accomplished? Is it worthwhile? I mean, just feeling more, you know, like, can things come to mind or no? You just go, I have a point of view on this and I want to share that. - I see what you're saying. And maybe when I was younger, I might have, maybe not. It seems like censorship, self-censorship to do that. And that makes me uncomfortable. And also I have a certain amount of confidence. I think it's fine to say controversial things if your reader or your listener understands your intentions. If they believe you're acting in good faith, I think it's fine. I think what is upsetting me is that upsetting to someone is the feeling they're being played or- - Led. - Led or- - Manipulated. - Manipulated or condescended to. But if your intentions are clear and honest, I think it's fine. I have warm feelings towards lots of people who disagree with me profoundly because I perceive their intentions to be pure. - Yes. I guess maybe a better way for me to phrase it is, you have limited time and resources. I would presume your preference would be that the things you contribute change to change things, is that fair? - Mm, yeah. - Maybe not. - One thing that I've been conscious of, 'cause I've written about crime and violence in almost every book I've written, is a topic I keep coming back to. And I'm very much aware of the extent to which my own views have evolved. Every time I write about it, I learn something I didn't know. So what was driving this book in part was, I began to uncover things I'd never thought of about crime, even though I thought I'd been thinking about crime in a sophisticated way for 30 years. - Yeah. - But it's a bunch of stuff. I was just like, wait, what? - Yes. - And when that happens to me, I'm like, okay, it's fine. Let's just explore this. And after, we can talk about this later, but since writing the book, I've now been doing this big project on Baltimore, 'cause Baltimore is the American city that's seen the steepest decline in gun violence in the last couple of years. They're doing really interesting things, and everything they're doing is new to me. It's like, it's fascinating. I'm so kind of consumed with this right now that all those other considerations I just pushed aside, and I feel like I'm on this, ride to learn more about this thing. And anyone who wants to climb on, and if you wanna argue with me, fine. I'm arguing with myself half the time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, so let's start with a really important fact, which is you're from Canada. I think a lot of us, inside of the bubble, it's the water we're in. It's like, I've never turned on the news in my life and not heard about shooting. It's so standard. We interviewed a woman yesterday. The prompt was, tell us about the time you were on the news. This young lady's 24. She's at a fucking- - We're not supposed to. She's at a big restaurant chain. - I mean, I don't know why we're not- - She wanted to keep it- - She wanted to, but it's in the article she sent. Anyways, all right. - She's at a big restaurant chain. - A friendly family chain restaurant in the middle of rural America, and she thinks she hears fireworks, and she stands up to look out the window, and she gets shot. And you know, there's 20 guys in the parking lot that are firing 60 rounds off in like a neighborhood- - College town. - College town. We're hearing that. We're like, yeah, that's standard. Like, you live here. You know, you might get shot at some point, you'll know someone that gets shot. So just, it starts with perhaps, how aware of our gun madness were you in Canada? - As a kid, Time Magazine would come every week. We had no TV. We read books, and we got Time Magazine. We didn't even get a newspaper. That's my childhood. Go to the library with my mom once a week, come back with a big armful of books, and then Time Magazine would arrive, and I would read Time Magazine from beginning to end, the whole thing. - Wow. - That had to be a very exciting publication versus the books. It was glossy pictures and stuff. - Glossy pictures. - Yeah, yeah. - This is like the Marvel movies. This is a Marvel movie coming out. - But to this day, there are pictures that were in time that if I see them, like in some archive, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that. - Wow. - Like, it just burned into my memory. So I'm, whatever I am, eight years old, in rural Ontario, and in the mail every week comes this little thing about this country that I've never visited, which is only 100 miles away, and which I'm completely fascinated by. As I got a little older, I did nothing. I read enormous amounts of books on America, American politics, I was obsessed with America, and I couldn't get over this fact. You had to read time magazine and various articles about people getting shot, people getting murdered, crime this, crime that, and I had no idea No experience with crime. None. My town had one police officer, and we knew him. He was the husband of my mom's friend. And he would, like, stop you and tell you, I'll tell your parents. Like Mayberry police? I'd never seen a gun. I'd never heard of anyone getting shot. Nobody ever broke into our house. It's like, remember once my mom had a, this is a parallel thing, but my mom is the kind of person who people come and they just sit and talk to my mom. It's still happening now at 95 in her nursing home. If I called her, she was like, well, I have those people coming over. Can you call later? You're kind of a line building. I got to wrap this up. I remember once she had a friend from Jamaica who came who was living in Atlanta, and I was eavesdropping on the conversation. And I just remember her friend, a fellow Jamaican, just talking about the experience. This is the 70s, living in presumably a poor neighborhood in Atlanta in the 70s. You're from Atlanta, Monica, right? And I just remember thinking, oh my God. Talking about the racism and the violence and with tones of kind of horror. She came from Jamaica where, you know, racism wouldn't be an issue and there was violence in Jamaica, but not of the kind she was describing. Did it sound scary here? It sounded foreign and it sounded mysterious. Just so different. And I was beyond fascinated. And the minute I got my driver's license, my friend Terry and I, we drove to America. We, one summer, we got in his mom's car and we took a four-day road trip. Were you like, that place is crazy? Or were you just, anthropologically just interested? I don't know if I got that far. The community I grew up in was a Mennonite community in southwest Ontario. So everyone was a pacifist. And so we were on the extreme other end of the continuum. So hearing about America, I was like, oh my God. Because in many ways it's so similar, right? It looks the same, same TV, same food, same God, same everything. Yeah, that's what I like about the book. You're like, we're eating at the same restaurants. We're wearing the exact same clothes. We're watching the same exact TV shows. And yet this country has, three X the amount of homicides that Canada does. And we have four times the amount of homicides that the UK has. Again, I don't think we're so aware of it inside of it, right? Yeah, like you have a great episode on Paw Patrol that is saying kind of the same thing. That Canada just has a little bit of a different way of being and you can't really tell when you're here in America until you start picking apart these teen, tiny differences, but they mean everything. They mean everything about the structure of how we live. And I got to say, just even reading that in the book, like we watch the same shows, we eat the same food. Y'all are immigrants too. Because I push back a little bit sometimes when America gets criticized. Let's just take the pandemic, right? It's like, we did not cooperate. You know, if you charted us against the rest of the countries in the world, we did not cooperate. But additionally, we also came up with four of the five vaccines in manufacturing. We manufactured them and got them all out. And so my argument's always like, yeah, man, you don't get it all. You don't get cooperation. And then these streaks of, you know, like you got to take it all. We're a very high dopamine country with a bunch of immigrants that have high dopamine where they lived and came here, right? And you can trace that across the West and the even higher dopamine people went to the West. But that breaks down when I think of Canada, because you too are the products of people with high dopamine who came from somewhere else. And then I go, huh, well, that is curious. Why aren't you? You're crazy as we are. There's a difference. I mean, I should say this book, it's not a hate America book. Oh, no, not at all. I'm not painting it that way. I have chosen to live in this country. I love it for how many years now? 30 years. Okay, so the first fun test in the book is we take five cities, Chicago, New York, Toronto, Paris, and London. And so Monica, if you had to rank those five cities, highest to lowest homicides between Chicago, New York, Toronto, Paris, and London, what would you guess the order is? Chicago, Paris, New York, London, Toronto. You're a little bit out of order. New York's higher than Paris. Oh, it is. I thought that was so obvious. I was trying to-- You're trying to be smart. I'm always trying to be too smart. Well, there's a second part to this, which is really fun. I would argue, and the book argues, it's a pretty obvious list. At least most people are going to definitely say Chicago, New York. The American cities are going to be the highest. And then you're going to probably assume Paris is a little dicier than, say, London. I don't know. Now, rank those five cities for robberies. Oh, okay. Paris. Yeah. Oh. Damn it, Monica. I love Paris. Monica's unraveling the whole book right out of the gate. There's more petty crime, I think, in Europe. Maybe London next, maybe even. Or Toronto, maybe? New York, Chicago. I have to say, Monica's in a class by herself. I feel like she secretly read the book. She's not supposed to. She's supposed to be the audience. But I think she-- I didn't. I've been wanting to so badly, because he keeps talking about it. And I'm like, I am not allowed until he comes. But no, I didn't. No, you're right. So this is a super interesting distinction. There's all kinds of misperceptions I'm trying to correct in the book. We start with this one. Crime and violence are two completely separate things. They involve different people. They have different roots. Different causes. Different cures. America is not a high crime society. So by crime, I mean robbery, car theft, your house broken into, what have you. In fact, your car-- I was talking to someone who was going to Montreal recently. Your car is far more likely to be stolen or broken into in Montreal than New York City. Not even close. You're much more likely to have your home broken into in Paris or London than you are in Chicago. America, by the standards of the Western world, is a medium to low crime. It's the same place. What's different about America is violence. That's what's distinctive. It seems like a pedantic point, but when politicians go around and say they're going to get tough on crime, you have to stop them and say, wait a second, what do you mean? Yeah. Because if you want to get tough on crime as it's understood by criminologists, you don't need to. We're fine. The particular American problem is violence. Yes. That's so right. That's what we over-index in preposterously, right? You immediately, in this book, introduce kind of a framing, which I like, which is there are many specific issues within this broad debate about gun violence. And the framing you introduce is it gives them all this unifying theme, which is the concept of a dishonest conversation. So what is a dishonest conversation? And what different forms can they take? So there's one sense of dishonesty, which is people are just lying. Right. I don't think we're lying. I mean, in a broader sense, I feel like conversations are dishonest when we pretend something's important when it's not, or vice versa. Or when we know what the right answer is, what the appropriate response is, but we just can't bring ourselves to do it. Or we ignore some very obvious truth. Or we ignore some very-- like, what I'm getting at with dishonesty is it's when the conversation is filled with cowardice and with laziness. When we know there's an answer out there, but we just can't be bothered to try and find it. I find that. That's a common element in a lot of the way that Americans talk about violence. There's that kind of dishonesty. We're not engaging with the problem, and we're not trying to understand the problem. So that distinction between crime and violence will be a small example of this larger thing. Like, wait, be specific here. Yeah. You don't mean what you're saying. We meet immediately this young medical professional from Chicago, a black guy. Abdullah Black, right. Who personally, you ask him if he could count the number of folks he knows that have been shot. I still think about it, and it nearly brings me to tears. He's an ER doc at the University of Chicago hospital. Young guy, in his 30s, grew up in the south side of Chicago, decides to stay there to practice medicine. Could have gone anywhere. So he's practicing medicine in the neighborhood he grew up. And I ask him, so how many people do you know from growing up who've been killed? And he says, you mean that are in my phone? Oh, my god. Meaning-- There's a universe of guys I know, like, that's in the 30s. From the neighborhood. He said, but people that I knew well enough that I would be texting with them on a regular basis. And he says, 15. This is a guy who's probably 35 years old. So he has been, over the course of his adult life, including his own brother, 15 funerals. Every other year, someone he knows in his lifetime is murdered. I had been to, like, one funeral, two funerals of young people, children or friends of mine, and it was the most devastating thing. Of course. This guy's done it 15 times. And these are personal friends of his. I feel like that experience is something that is so specific. First of all, you could not find another ER physician in any country in the Western world who had that experience. Right? Can't. Yeah. Totally, yeah. That is America, man. That is very specific. And the idea that there would be somebody who's performing a serious, important-- professional job on a day-to-day basis who is carrying that burden around with him is just overwhelming to me. And then he talks to me. He's like, where are you going next? He goes, we go out to the elementary schools on the South Side, and we teach the kids how to be first responders if someone gets shot. Fifth graders, right? Or fourth graders or something? Yeah. Fourth graders. I was like, what? There's this one school he was going to. He says, I always ask the kids to raise their hand if someone they know has been shot. And like, in this particular school, basically every hand goes up. Fourth graders. So he gives them little kits. They teach them math. abcs like alert call 9-1-1 how to apply pressure one of the kids got to do it to just ask for a new kit because she just used it it's crazy it's absolute madness it is crazy and i feel like one of the problems with the way we discuss this problem is that there's too much distance between the kind of middle class experience with violence and the kind of violence that occurs in places like the south side of chicago and the majority doesn't understand what's going on there because it's too inconceivable and then frankly kind of too painful to really take on it's very similar to like the homeless crisis it's like at some point you've got to go well i've got to learn to ignore this or i can't exist here blame starts coming in like oh well they live there for this reason x y and z or they're homeless for this reason that's why i'm not over there if you can blame them it's a little more comforting yeah and then we kind of get right into the first very dishonest thing and this might anger the liberals the assault weapon ban bills yeah tell us about those i'm curious assault weapons bans have been a kind of hallmark of the gun control movement for 25 years always been curious about them so i call up a guy named greg wallace he's a law professor in north carolina he says come down see me i got an ar-15 we'll go and shoot it and i'll tell you all about the gun and so i go and see him and go to a range and i have pictures of myself you know with the goggles on and like it's a thing i'm firing away and then we have a long conversation about this particular gun and i really don't know if i'm going to be in talking to him that the problem with assault rifle bans is they don't ban assault rifles and then i go back and i read the bans and sure enough they're very short you can read this legislation these bills we had one in place for a while now we have people every year put forth bills in congress all you have to do is read them and you realize oh they're not banning assault weapons an assault weapon is a platform it's modular you can it's lego it's lego you can just buy bits on the internet and replace them yeah they are they are they are they are they are they are they are as a platform upon which you could put sites you could put a suppressor you could put a different stock you could put a different magazine a different trigger holder and what assault rifles ban is the kind of cosmetic adjustments you can make to your assault rifle they limit the number of those add-ons you can buy on the internet they want to outlaw packaging they don't want it to look ugly or look like a military weapon nothing to do whatsoever with the underlying gun the thing that will blow your mind if you read an assault rifle ban is the actual language of the bill is usually like three four pages real simple and you see oh my god they're just banning which pieces you can order online then there's the appendix which goes on for like dozens of pages and it lists all the guns not covered by the ban there's a paragraph of the ones that are banned and then there's four pages of exemptions from this more than four pages upon pages of like every gun so it's like wait this is what we're doing that's dishonest yes pretending that you're not doing anything that's dishonest that's dishonest that's you're doing something pretending you're doing something meaningful when you're actually not and then also we are we are hung up on assault rifles period once you dig into the data right this is another crazy revealing part people i think the gun control movement has taken advantage of this mistakenly believe that an assault rifle is a machine gun that you just hold down the trigger and it fires it's not it's a gun like any others it fires one bullet for every pull of the trigger there's nothing magical about it it just happens to look different it's a little lighter and it uses a smaller caliber ammunition it is favored by people who do mass shootings although the majority of people who die in mass shootings die because they're shot by handguns handguns are the most lethal thing in mass shootings not assault weapons and then as you're interviewing someone they're pointing out like an assault weapon is actually back this is quite visible so that you cannot be acting with any discretion when you have an assault rifle it's very visible you might start running whereas the handgun can be concealed into the moment i'm next to you i can fire just as many bullets with it they're just as lethal the absurdity is trying to distinguish a class of weapons and saying well this one's worse than yeah no problem is guns just like be honest about it look we don't think it's a good idea for people to be carrying around guns so let's place some limitations on them that's the right conversation yeah i don't think that is rude towards liberals well they're always the ones behind the assault well i think most liberals are just like get rid of them all i don't want them but it's not a good it seems like that's impossible so how do we find a compromise i feel like that's their compromise even though as you're saying it's not a compromise because it's nothing but i can't really blame them they are violating this thing it's a dishonest it's not going to impact anything it's pageantry it's not really addressing the issue it allows the gun rights people a free pass because they know it's horseshit they pretend to get all upset about it and secretly saying this is a joke and this is a number from the book which is wild again mass shootings are so horrific obviously and often who's targeted is the biggest fear we would all have yet we are inflating its impact a little bit so in the last 57 years in the country 1342 people have died in mass shootings which is outrageous it's terrible but two million people have been killed by guns in general again to have this obsession on this thing and then particularly the weapon of choice for this thing we're worrying about the leak upstairs in the faucet in the kitchens fully engulfed in flames if you were thinking rationally about what part of the problem to attack first that's not the part you would it's a thousand people over 50 years it's not the two million who are otherwise dying in the streets it's like let's get our priorities straight here yeah but you know why and all the capital you're using it's a waste of time it's not going to be effective it's not going to address our problem which is gun violence monica said you know why it is every parent's nightmare it's every parent's time you're back this might annoy people but the reason people don't really care about the two million is because they don't think that will happen to them yeah the mass shooting at the school could happen to them but again statistically that is incorrect statistically that they are they are worrying about getting struck by lightning when they drive cars i fully agree with you i just think they're like that happens in that neighborhood that doesn't happen in my neighborhood but a mass shooting could happen in my neighborhood but it's one of the many things that has to change yes i agree the audiobook and the book itself but in the audiobook version i call up a friend of mine drew holcomb who's a singer in nashville jackson's adopted he read the book and i said do you have any music that you think might work because i like to have music in my audiobooks and he sent me a song he wrote it was one morning he was driving his kids to school and he hears about a mass shooting at a school and he goes back and he writes a song and it's just called troubles and it's this completely haunting beautiful song and that's how the audiobook begins with drew singing troubles and even though i say in the book mass shootings are a tiny part of the problem i wanted to have that song because i did understand that it is one of those rare moments where the reality of gun violence in this country hits home to the majority of people when i listened to that song i started crying i started crying i started crying i started crying i started crying i started crying because all i could think about was i understood what he meant he just dropped his kids off at school and then he heard that like whatever 25 kids were shot in uvalde there is something about that that is so profane yeah yeah right and you can't i mean i totally get it there's an emotional response we have that is in some ways distinct from the kind of rational response yeah it's a bug i would argue it really threatens your understanding of where we live you have a real hard time with the dissonance of like wait is that our society we have a place where adults go in and shoot the children that's hard to reconcile that that's where you live and that's the society you're participating in just that people are capable of that yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare we are supported by allstate checking allstate first could save 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And the home run for me is that YouTube prints. Premium remembers exactly where I left off and lets me continue watching on another device from right where I stopped. So I can start a video on my TV while brushing my teeth and pick it right back up on my phone on my morning walk. So yeah, YouTube was already great, but Premium supercharges it. Trial eligibility varies. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton TreadFlex. It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run. Literally. Anywhere. Whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton TreadFlex at OnePeloton.com. In the song, which is a gorgeous song, which anyone listening should just look up on the internet, the reason I was so moved by it, and it perfectly captures the tone, which was, he was expressing the kind of fatigue, not just the kind of horror, but like, I want this to be over. I can't bear to hear about another one of these cases. It was like the accumulation of year upon year upon year of these kinds of things. And the song is all about like, I just want it to go away. It's a very, very, very moving, and that's the kind of thing I'm trying to get at in The American Way of Killing, which is, it's too much. Can't keep going down this path. Yeah. The depth of the powerlessness is arresting. Okay, then we get into, because again, there's all these different debates raging, and all of them ultimately, all roads lead back to the Second Amendment. I found this to be the most fascinating chapter in the book. So let's start. Just tell me about the Stono Rebellion. A guy named Carl Bogus writes this book on the Second Amendment, which is so genius. He wrote it like 25 years ago. I read it, called him up, and I was like, basically, Carl, this book is genius. Why did this book not change our entire understanding of the Second Amendment? He was like, I don't know. But basically what he does is, so when the Constitution is proposed in the 1780s, all the states have to ratify it. And the most important state, unless Virginia wants to do this, it's not happening. Well, that's why they had to have George Washington be the president. It's like they had to constantly appease Virginia. Virginia's a big, big deal. So Virginia had, has a ratifying convention in Richmond where they debate whether they should join this thing called the American Union. And we have perfect transcripts of their debates. What are they arguing about the whole time? They're arguing about militias. The Virginians are really worried that this new thing called the U.S., the federal government will take away militias from the states. Why does this concern them? Because when they talk about militias, they're talking about slave patrols. In many parts of Virginia and South Carolina, a slave owner would be, would be greatly outnumbered by his slaves. Sometimes the ratio is 20 to 1 of slaves to white people. You go to bed every night and you're terrified you're going to get killed in your bed. And so what you do is you have armed white men with guns on horseback who volunteer and they ride around putting the fear of God into slaves. What they're terrified of is that when the United States starts, the federal government's going to take away the right of states to have slave patrols. So they go to James Madison, fellow Virginian, founding father, son of a plantation owner. And they say, James, write us an amendment that ensures we can still have our slave patrols. And so he does. So the best way to understand the Second Amendment is the actual language is a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of free state, comma, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Now, you do an incredible section on just this sentence. This sentence deserves its own book. Again, I'm going to read it out loud. A well-regulated militia, comma, being necessary to the security of a free state, comma, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, comma, shall not be infringed. This is a particular grammatical device. What's it called? It's an initial being clause, something that we haven't used with any regularity in our speech for 200 years. It was waning by the time this was written, right? Yeah, yeah. But then there's this insane database of everything James Madison has written. And this scholar you're talking to who's gone through, all this, and we come to find out that James Madison loves this grammatical device. He uses it all the time. All the time. Because every debate that centers around this is people are trying to figure out, does the second sentence support the first? Is the first is set up for the main point of the second? Are we talking about militias here when we talk about guns? Or are these just two thoughts that happen to reside in the same sentence? There's no periods. Yeah, there's two thoughts. There should have been a period. No. Well, we find out quite conclusively. We find out quite conclusively. No, we know exactly how he uses these. He uses them all of the time. And in fact, the second part is just a support of the first. So what we learn through this study of how he writes is we know what he was saying. He was saying the slave patrols that we call militias are so important to the security of my home state of Virginia and other slave-owning states that we cannot possibly in any way limit the ability of our citizens to hold guns. And I have. I have to say, until reading this, my personal understanding was, oh, the Second Amendment was about our right to have militias in the event of a tyrannical government. I thought this was a direct response to just having fought against the Brits. No. I think most people think that. The problem with that is that the militias during the Revolutionary War performed so terribly. They were, like, badly trained. They were drunk all the time. And George Washington himself gets drunk. He gets really upset. He's like, I can't do this. I need a standing army. These guys are incompetent. No one is banging the drum for militias in 1780. We knew they were a disaster. We're talking about slave patrols. And it's of relevance to a handful of slave-owning states whose votes are necessary for the ratification of the U.S. Constitution. That's what this is. It's 100% an amendment for slave control. They call this chapter the slave owner's lament. They're just terrified. They're these terrified white guys. When they're having this. This argument, they're in Richmond. They're there for, like, three weeks. The whole time they're there, they're away from their family and kids. And the whole time, they're terrified. They're like, what happens if the slaves. I thought it was so fascinating, this idea that at the core of the institution of slavery was anxiety. Even as these white men were owning and trading in the lives of black people, they were terrified. As they should have been. Well, and you talk about this Stonewall Rebellion, which is a unique. If that can be said, cruel task. They have all these men trying to dig a levee, basically. There's an impossible heat. And finally, they have enough. How many of them are there? Well, it grows. It's like 100 people or something. And they do. They go door to door. They've had enough. And they start killing people. I know. I'm surprised that didn't happen all the time. It happened more than we think. But there were a variety of very, very high profile rebellions in the South during the period of slavery. The Stonewall Rebellion that I write about is the one that kind of terrifies. The Southerners the most, because it was like, these guys go on a rampage. And I think it's a relevant detail because I think otherwise you might not understand the severity of their fear. To know that they really happened and that they were sometimes bloody and terrifying really helps you understand their point of view in a way that makes the whole thing seem quite believable and rational in their weird worldview. The kind of gone with the wind lie was that there was this kind of. Peaceful coexistence between the loving slave and their kindly paternal owner. Caretakers. And you realize, this is not what's going on there. Yeah. There's like anger and anxiety and fear. And this is a deeply problematic relationship. And it's expressed in all kinds of different ways. And one of the ways this is expressed is the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. This truth bending of what it's really about made me think of another parallel truth bending, which is when they try. To argue that the Civil War was about states' rights. This is like a common thing on the far right to say, well, no, that was about states' rights. Well, it was about a state right, not rights, a single right, the right to own people. It's such a marital spat, by the way. It's the kind of thing you do when you're arguing with your wife. It's like you pretend there's some kind of broader principle. You just want to leave the party. It's not about like, I got all this. You've had it talking to this board. I'm a party person. You're uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. I want to go home. Yeah, so to find out that the bedrock is solely to prevent slaves from an uprising and we no longer have slaves. It's deeply embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. People who want to fetishize the Second Amendment. It is. Another dishonest thing. The court does not own up to that history of the Second Amendment. They pretend it never happened. I would be fine if the court. said, we understand the Second Amendment. was born out of slavery. But we think there is a contemporary rationale. I would be happy if they did that. I want to say that that intention comes through throughout the book, which is, I don't think you're saying you now need the verdict after we acknowledge all these things to be this or that, or that this has to happen. All you're asking for is like, let us start with an honest conversation. Yeah. This is what the amendment was about, controlling slave rebellions. Just own up to it. Okay, now another very dishonest conversation that happens is these drops in gun deaths. So I think a lot of us believe we've had some reduction in gun deaths, which we would conclude means less people are shooting each other. But that's not at all the case, is it? First of all, you reveal this thing that the federal government has no fucking clue how many people have been shot. They only know how many people have been killed. Walk us through that a little bit. This is like this thing, which is sort of obvious when you think about it, but for some reason, I certainly never thought about the problem this way. A homicide rate is a function of two things. The underlying level of violence, how many people are getting shot, and how quickly you get to the hospital and how good the care is once you get there, right? I live in Hudson Valley, two hours from New York, an hour from a trauma center. If you shoot me, it's going to take the ambulance half an hour to get there and another hour to get to the hospital. Even a relatively modest wound is going to result in a death. It's going to result in my death. And we have the data. We know this. We know how many minutes. You're talking to doctors and they're basically like, you have 26 minutes, pretty much. If you get shot in the lungs, it's easy to survive it, but you absolutely need to have immediate medical attention within 20 minutes or you're dead. Yeah, and they know it down to the minutes, right? So it's like 30 minutes, you have X percentage of surviving, pretty high actually nowadays. An hour, you're dead. Don't even drive to the hospital. Drops dramatically. And then a shocking pattern, which is where are the level one, trauma centers. But I was going to say, that same shooting that takes place like in downtown LA, where I'm really close to USC Medical Center, the same shooting that is a homicide in the Hudson Valley is aggravated assault in downtown LA. I can get to trauma center in 10 minutes, right? So when you realize that, you're like, oh, so it really matters how good the doctors are and it really matters how close you are to a hospital. So a hundred years ago, when the doctors are terrible, you're going to have a lot of things that would today be aggravated assaults be homicides. And then also if you live a long way from a trauma center, as typically poor people do in this country, you're going to have an elevated homicide rate. And when you get much better at treating gunshot wounds, your homicide rate is going to go down, but not because your community is safer because your doctors are better. I'd spent an entire chapter talking with this guy. It's a fascinating afternoon. I went to see the greatest gunshot trauma surgeon in the world, got him Eddie Cornwell. You asked him how many career gunshot wounds does he think he's had? And he says he has a pretty solid ballpark. He thinks 3,000. No. 3,000. And where is he again? I don't think there's anyone in history who's treated as many gunshot wounds as he has. Cause he starts his career at USC. And so in South central at the height of the gang crack eighties, then he goes to Baltimore to Hopkins, murder capital of the world. And then he goes to Howard university in Washington, DC. He knows more about what it means to treat a gunshot than anybody else. The specificity of he's okay. If you get shot in the spleen, this is going to happen. I can't get rid of that. No, I can. Who cares? You don't need a spleen. You get shot in the liver. That thing bleeds. I can't get it stopped. Each organ. He'll tell you if you get shot here, you got this many minutes caliber, the weapon. And like, he's just an encyclical. This is this weird thing about America is that we have developed this paradoxical expertise in treating gunshot wounds. We have a Michael Jordan of gunshot wounds. We shouldn't have to have that. I give the. The example of there was a mass shooting in Scotland. One of the only ones they've ever had was in the nineties. You know, who's in the classroom during the mass shooting, Andy Murray, you know, the tennis player. Oh, really? Yeah. He never talks about it. Never talks about it. He was hiding under a desk. Those people would have been taken to a local hospital. And it's quite possible that trauma surgeons would never have treated a gunshot wound before. Imagine getting shot here and you go to USC. I mean, they've all might be the second that day. Yeah. As you said, fourth graders know how at this point to some extent. Yeah. Yeah. 3000. So I want you to define moral hazard and I love the insurance example. Yeah. Moral hazard is where someone else steps in and takes responsibility for some problem, which allows you to kind of go on with life as normal. So if you live on the coast and does hurricane every two years and the government always gives you money to rebuild. You're never going to move classic moral hazard. Someone else is paying the price for your, you taking the risk. So why would you bother? You can just continue living there and you're going to predictably act irrationally and probably a bit of morally. And I think that we have a little bit of a moral hazard problem because our trauma surgeons are so good. They hide the severity of the problem. They're shouldering the whole epidemic in a way once, as I was saying, the federal government has no idea, but this group of folks sets out to figure this out and what Yeah. They do figure out is that it's probably four to one. So for every one homicide death, there are three other people have been shot. The problem's massive. So four to one, three of which we just generally don't even hear about. But another crazy figure is that without these medical advances that have happened over the last 30 years or so, we would have 45 to 70,000 gun deaths over the past five years, instead of the 15 to 20 we normally have. This guy Eddie Cornwall, I went to see, did this really fun thing. Where he went through every president who's been shot and talked about whether they would have lived if they were shot in the same way today, all the way up to Reagan. And it was fascinating. Most of the presidents who'd been shot in America who died would be alive. If they had been shot. Kenny and Lincoln would be dead because it was shots to the head, but everybody else probably would have made it. Reagan who makes it would probably have died. If he'd been shot prior to 1940, cause he's an older man. He gets a gunshot wound to the chest back then. It probably would have been lethal. Okay. So just to remind everyone so far, we've learned that a violence and crime are not the same thing. We still have a massive gun shooting problem. That's kind of been hidden by medicine. The constitution, the second amendment isn't about what we thought it was about. And now to me, the second most fascinating revelation of this is now within this violent crime category, there are two distinctly different types of violent crime. And what first we have. To acknowledge is what we all think of as violent crime and why we think of it that way. Most people get their understanding of homicide from TV shows. My old assistant, I said, I need you to watch two seasons of law and order. I need you to make a spreadsheet of every single homicide and describe the nature of that homicide. So she does that. And what you discover is on law and order, almost every homicide is what we call instrumental does to say it was carefully. Planned and executed in a calm, rational way because the killer is in pursuit of some other end. I want something from you. I'm resolving my problem by that's called instrumental. I want money. I want to take your thing. It turns out that I went and reread or flipped through every Agatha Christie, Hercule Poirot book and discovered that every single homicide in Agatha Christie is instrumental. Someone calmly plotting the death of another in pursuit of some other end. So. If all you do, like most of us, our understanding of homicide comes from television shows and pop culture and whatever. Then you think that's what homicide is. And our lawmakers do. They're not immune to this. Not immune. In actual fact, there's another kind of homicide, which is called expressive violence, which is I shoot you in a jealous rage. Crime of passion. Crime of passion. We get in a fight at Taco Bell and I pull a gun. Or more commonly would be Dax shoots my brother and I am really upset. And I shoot Dax and then Dax's brother comes after my cousin and then my cousin comes after the culture of honor. One of your books. Yes. That's called expressive violence. And the question is, what kind of violence do we have in America? Expressive. Our entire legal system is set up to deal with instrumental violence because we know that if we have a deterrent on the table, when you're plotting and you're considering the consequences, if you think you'll get prosecuted and then it turns out when you get prosecuted, you're going to be prosecuted. You're going to rot in a prison for 30 years. We hope that'll be a deterrent. Our entire investment, all of our resources are set up to deal with just that, really. Instrumental homicides. But in fact, overwhelmingly, America's lethal violence is expressive. It's people having fights and settling feuds and getting caught up in the moment and doing things they regret and not thinking straight and not being able to resolve their conflicts in a peaceful manner. It's 18-year-olds who are drunk and. Waving a gun around in a bar. To Dax's point, these are not people who are thinking rationally through the consequences of their actions. Yeah. No, they're not plotting and weighing out the pros and cons or the risk-reward. And the numbers are insane. So the number of instrumental homicides is 18%. Is that including mass shootings? Because that is intentional, right? Well, they're so, to our earlier point, they're such a trivial small number that doesn't move the needle. It wouldn't even move it even if we included it or didn't include it. A mass shooting would be an instrumental. - Okay. - But 18% of the total number of homicides Homicides in our entire legal system and law enforcement is set up to deal with. So even if we were perfect, if we created the deterrent that stopped all instrumental murders, we would reduce the total number by 18%. That is an absurdity. I can't think of another thing that we're spending more money on. That's another example of a version of dishonesty, that you've completely misperceived the nature of your problem. You're trying to solve a problem you don't have. That's what I'm trying to get at in the book, is that kind of silliness. Yes, you say murders are overwhelmingly driven by arguments, and Americans resolve their arguments with guns. That is what's unique about us. Yes, it feels like it should be easy to fix that. Okay, now here's a fucking juicy one. And again, this one, the liberals aren't going to like hearing this. He always looks at me when— I noticed that. Yeah, have you noticed that? One of the two, she's more liberal than I am. When I bring up a sentence, I go, the centrists are going to hate this. I stare in that mirror right there. Yeah, he—yeah, okay. We'll move on, but go—yeah. Okay, I just want to set this up, and then I want you to ask her the question, okay? Berlin and L.A. are perfect comps for one another in that they both have 3.9 million people. They're both incredibly wealthy cities. They're very educated cities. They are great comps. The LAPD employs 8,000 officers. How many officers do you think Berlin employs? A thousand. Seven hundred and fifty. Kristen guessed 800. Now that I've learned this in your book, I've asked like 12 people this. It's like the funnest thing to ask people. Oh, no, is it like 200? 18,000. What? Yeah. By the way, I did some more research on that. If you add in their trainees, their technical staff, their civilian staff, they have 26,400. Wait. Isn't that a mind scrambler? Yeah. Huh. You could do that for every American city. Just do a simple comp with a similarly- Amsterdam and this city. Dallas and what have you. As a general principle, Western European cities have twice as many cops per capita as American cities. We are dramatically, jaw-droppingly under-policed in this country. When foreign police chiefs come here, they're like, what are you guys doing? Where are the cops? Wow. Are they getting paid more there? I don't know about that. The larger context. The thing that's important to understand is that as a share of GDP, European countries and America spend exactly the same amount of money on public safety. Exactly the same. There's no difference. We spend all of our money on prisons and we scrimp on police. They spend all their money on police and they scrimp on prisons. The simple question is, if you had to choose between those two strategies, what would you rather do? Have lots of police and try and prevent crime or lots of prisons and just punish people after they've done the crime? It's a no-brainer. We should add, the expenditures of our police departments are also different. We have tons of paramilitary equipment that gobbles up a ton of the budget. But we have that. Because the police are undermanned, they feel they have to project a certain kind of aggression and force. It's a response to the fact there's not enough of them. Yeah, that's interesting. They're completely understaffed and overwhelmed and they have to have dramatic shows of force. There's this crazy comp, which is. It's maybe more interesting to look at police shootings per capita to measure the stress of this being understaffed and overwhelmed. And the only countries that have a similar rate of police killing civilians, here's the group we're in. Pakistan, Iran, Brazil, and South Africa or something. That's our compadres in this. They all share a significant thing with the United States. They are all. They are all countries that are also under-policed. Police violence is a thing that the police do when there's not enough of them. And when you look at the countries in the world that have the most police per capita, they have the best behaved police, the lowest levels of police violence. After George Floyd, we got this completely backwards. We should never have concluded that we need to defund the police because the police were behaving badly. No. You have to refund the police if they're behaving badly. A better way of putting it is, I had this fantastic conversation with this guy called Dan Oates, who's a very, very interesting, very progressive police chief. He's in Denver now? Is that where he's at? He was in Aurora, Colorado. Oh, Aurora. Okay, yeah. That was his last big job. And I simply asked him, if I gave you European levels of police, if I essentially doubled the size of your department, what would you have done differently? It's like he'd never been asked this question before. And he went on, he just talked. He knew immediately what he would do. He was like, I could have real engagement with the community. I could have liaison with the schools because the schools are where you spot the truth. Troubled kids first, and you could intervene and help them before they get in trouble. I could get to a bar fight in five minutes as opposed to 10 minutes or 15 minutes. And he went on and on and on. And you realize he knew what he had to do to be an effective and much more friendly police department. But he couldn't do it because he didn't have enough cops. And the result was that his cops, you stay in your car and you race from one emergency to the next. And then when you get there, you have to project force because. You're overwhelmed. Yeah, you're by yourself. The real job of a police officer is to know the people in the community they're policing, right? To have personal relationships, like your neighbor, to have people trust you, tell you stuff, share with you their problems, be willing to come to you. And the only way you can do that is with time and direct face-to-face contact. You can't do that when you've got half as many cops as you need. Also, when the citizens are picking up the phone calling 911 and the people arrive 40 minutes later. That sends a crazy clear signal to them. They're not there to help you or protect you, right? So the trust is gone because of the response time. He gives this really poignant example, too, of an officer who sees a guy getting hot with a girl. They're outside of a bar. He's starting to yell and we're leading towards probably violence. And again, we know now that the vast majority of murders are this exact situation. And the police officer intervenes and he tells the guy, go fucking take a walk. And they drive the woman home and they probably prevented something. There's no one's arrested. Just having them present as a pressure gauge for what we know is the vast majority of these murders are these situations where by the time anyone gets there, everyone's escalated to a point where someone's dead. The important point is, and this is a place where I think people who, liberals who are upset at this line of argument will come around. You don't add cops to do more of the same. You add cops to do something different. Yes, I think that's right. If all you're doing is just having a couple hundred more squad cars and a couple more hundred guys driving around in ride gear, that's not helping. What you need to do is to use these extra people to do something you're not doing now. That's the kind of opportunity here. Yeah, and also even in this city, right, it's like the scope of problems they have to deal with. It's preposterous. They're dealing with an enormous mental health crisis. Half their calls are dealing with that. I mean, they're not psychologists. They're not trained for that. And then the next call is like, enter this home where we've heard a gunshot and shit breaking. It's like, you know, a date with violence. No one's really specialized. You're just asked to deal with all this crazy stuff. This city is actually a chronically underpoliced city. And it's no surprise that the LAPD has one of the worst reputations for police violence. Because, I mean, places. The police is vast. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like, how do you police a place this vast with a small number of people? The only way you can do it is to behave like an occupying army, which is what they did for years. Yeah. Right? Whenever I come to L.A., because I come from New York, which is one of the few cities that Poppy does have a reasonably adequate number of officers, I'm always like, where are the. I'm driving along, like, the 405 at 10 o'clock at night, and everyone's going 90 miles an hour. I'm like, where's the cops here? This is like. Well, let's not put them there. Yeah. I'm signing off on meeting my neighbor. You love that there's no speeding tickets. That's my favorite part of Los Angeles. Are you one of those guys going 90 on a Friday night in one of your speedy cars? Oh, yeah, I'm guilty. I'm very guilty. He does so bad. They're putting up cameras, though. That's the new thing. I think the party's probably doing that. The party, the party. Yeah, and I'm trying to figure out, when will I get the first one in the mail? Flock comes for Dax. I'm still waiting for my invitation to the All Cars podcast of Dax Shepard. Alienate your audience in one fell swoop. It's its own show. All Cars. All that happens is Monica just cuts it right out. I'll do it. Sometimes I'll get carried away with it. There was one episode. I think the first time you came, though, there was a lot of cars. I can keep like two minutes max. Yeah, and then you're out. Which I don't think is fair because my appetite for her clothing talk and her shopping is, I would say, pretty deep. I'm all ears. I don't know that I've ever gone over two minutes talking about, with a guest. Okay, with a guest. Maybe on a fact check. Yeah. Yeah. I've done five to ten on astrology about three dozen times. And again, I'll— Guess what? The audience likes that. Okay? They love it. I have a quick question for you, Monica. Yeah. You're a big into astrology? Not really. See, I get painted. I get painted as a crazy liberal. I get painted as a crazy astrologist. No, I like it. I think it's fun. Can you guess what sign I am? Okay, this is fun. I think— Let's be honest right out of the gate. You only have an 8% chance of succeeding. I don't believe in astrology, but I am astonished. at how many people who believe in astronomy always know what sun I am. They get years. Are you cancer? Are you a Pisces? Cute Malcolm Smiler. He goes, no. You're not a Virgo. Yeah, I am. You are? So I'm a double Virgo. What's your birthday? August 24th. When's yours? September 3rd. Okay, September Virgos are different from August Virgos. That's why you didn't get it. Me and my mom are both Virgos. I should have known that. I mean, it does make sense. You're very reasonable, logical. It's the best sign, so it makes sense. If I was drawing a comparison, my conclusion, I think, would be just as scientific as I would go, oh, Virgos have very expressive and inviting eyes. That's what you guys have in common more than probably anything else. That's not true. My kids are both Leos. Oh, nice. And my wife has strong feelings about Leos. Uh-oh. And she's constantly pointing out the Leos. On this, I have to say, something seems to be going on with Leos. They're really fun, right? The number of kind of high, strong personality types who are Leos is kind of epic. Oh, interesting. Don't you think? Like Obama's a Leo. My wife always says, of course, he's a Leo. But I didn't notice that about being high-strung. I thought that's- No, high-strung. Strong personality. Oh, yeah. Yeah, forward. Strong personality. Yes. Dominate the room. Extroverted. You're probably a Leo rising. I think that is. I would bet my life on it, Monica. I would bet my life on it. You should. If anyone makes you, you should. The best is, you know, we had Adam Grant on recently, and, you know, he wrote a whole piece, a whole takedown of astrology. He hates it. It was just a hilarious fight to pick. I think he hates it because he just doesn't like his sign. But I gotta tell you, I heard a female comedian make the most astute observation I've ever heard, which is the stock market is men's astrology. Oh, that's so true. Yeah, because none of it's real. It is spot on. It's total bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, one thing I wanted to talk about, this is kind of back to what's causing all these gun deaths, and it is these arguments. And you have a little section about this BAM program, which is kind of training kids to de-escalate. It's one of these things that you would easily write off as like, this is, again, pageantry. It's like, yeah, in a classroom, this and that. But then the data was pretty shocking. This gets into something that I've been exploring since writing the book a lot, about what does homicide prevention look like? Yeah. Homicide prevention flows from that insight that a lot of what homicide is, is like basically young men settling beefs with violence. So then what you should be doing is trying to intervene or train them to resolve their conflicts in a more peaceable manner. So one thing I talk about in the book is this program in Chicago where you teach conflict resolution to teenage boys, a year-long class. They've done studies on it and it's shown dramatic decreases down the line. The more interesting one is the one I've been looking at recently in Baltimore. Baltimore's had this dramatic decline in homicides. And they've taken this idea even further. They have a meeting every week and they sit in a room with 25 people. They go through a slide deck of all of the crimes that week and they'll say, okay, so Joey got shot on Wednesday at 8 p.m. on this block. Who knows Joey? And someone will say, I know Joey's family. Can you go and see Joey's dad? And get him to go with you to Joey's brother because we're really worried that Joey's brother's going to retaliate. They go right away. And they go and they bring a pastor and they bring a crisis counselor and they sit down with Joey's brother and they say, dude, I know you posted on social media that you're going after this guy. No, please don't do it. Can we help you? They're not arresting anyone. They're not doing anything about guns. They're not bringing in the National Guard. They're not using any kind of show of force. They're literally showing up at Joey's house on an afternoon with someone that Joey trusts and saying, you got to chill. And that works. Have you seen that great front line called the interrupters? And there's a group in Chicago that does a very similar thing, the interrupters. And the dude who goes up and just knocks on these doors and he's not with the police. That is homicide prevention. That's what we should be doing. The police give you the intelligence. They say, here's the social circle of the shooter and the social circle of the guy who got shot. Here's who we think in that social circle is most likely to commit an act of violence. Come with me and the pastor. We'll go and try and interrupt the chain. Yeah, this dude knocks on the door. He's like, hey, can I take you to breakfast? He's like, you want to take me to breakfast? He's like, yeah. He's like, when? He's like, right now. He goes, let me put my pistol up. And he goes inside and puts his gun. Let me go after breakfast. And you're like, fuck, that was incredible. Yeah. There's a guy named David Kennedy. He was a kind of pioneer inside these ideas about homicide prevention. One of the insights that drove it was something that he was doing all his work in Boston in the 90s. And he just was sort of new to this area. And he was talking to the gang unit of the Boston PD. And someone says to him, you know, everyone says these kids are predators. They're not. They're scared. And that insight has never left him. He's like, if you think they're predators, you think all you could do is lock them up and put them away forever. They're not. They're carrying guns because they're terrified. And because they've lost 15 friends and they're traumatized and they're really worried that they're going to be next. That is a very different problem than someone who is profoundly evil and is out to inflict as much pain as possible in their environment. Look, I own guns. I'll be very clear. I own guns out of fear. I'm married to a very famous woman and there are people that are mentally unwell that think they're married to her. And so that is something that's in my mind, right? That I need to be ready for the day someone comes in the house. So I don't have one out of recreation or a desire to do anything other than I have a fear. This is a solution to my fear. Most people love guns thing. It's there for my protection. It's there for the protection of my family. But then everyone has a gun. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. I've been saying this now everywhere I go because it's so, so profound. I have this very, very smart friend, Charles, who's from the South, and he said the thing that people don't understand is that the reason liberals hate guns and conservatives like them is the same. It's fear in both cases. One case, it's the fear of the other with the gun. And I'm so scared I need the gun myself. It's all fear of guns. That's exactly right. That framing is what broke my own polarization. There was one of the elections and it just hit me. Oh, people aren't voting for what they want. They're actually voting to address the things they're terrified about. So for liberals, it's global warming. It's this and that. And then for conservatives, it's this. And I'm like, oh, you just have two groups that are very afraid of some things and that's what's driving it. But both people are scared of some things. That makes me a lot more compassionate to people I disagree with because I see that they're afraid too. A hundred percent. And it also makes it clear to you that confrontation and anger is the worst strategy whatsoever for dealing with those who disagree with you. If someone's scared and you're yelling at them, that's not solving the problem. They just ratchet up higher into fight or flight. Okay, so this isn't a criticism, but I'll say this chapter had me begging for you to inquire about under all of that, when you hear these examples of the arguments that go south, almost all of them start as the same thing. It's a respect issue. And I think in these poor communities, when you have absolutely nothing other than that, it cannot be taken from you. I want to acknowledge as well, this level of being disrespected isn't happening in the upper income families where a kid's got innumerable ways to have status. But when everyone has nothing and there are no resources and no opportunities, all you have is your respect. So you're being threatened for the one thing you have. So of course the stakes are higher. And it's like, that needs to come into this analysis as well. It's like, why are these people willing to die over this notion of respect, which sounds preposterous to someone who's privileged, but not if you're poor. That's a big undercurrent of all this. Yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the subject is bleak and I didn't want to write a bleak book. I wanted to find a way to tell stories around this. That was my one goal. My second goal was, I didn't want it to be a long book because I feel like you can get overwhelmed. Yeah, that's even bigger problem to bring. Yeah, it's like, well, how do we deal with poverty? What you just said is a classic, example of a hundred percent. I could have explored that more. I wanted to tell very specific narratives about this. Yeah, I don't think it would have been right. I guess I wanted to ask you that because I was almost more curious if you did and then got rid of it. Like, I just wondered what- I thought about it. Perhaps there were things that you were like, this is really important, yet it needs to be thinned out. There's a very famous guy who I don't mention in the book called Marvin Wolfgang, who's one of the most famous criminologists of the 20th century. All of this thinking starts with Marvin Wolfgang. And he was at the University of Pennsylvania and he does this thing where, which at the time was very unusual. He's a brand new young academic and he decides, first of all, he wants to go through the homicide records of the Philadelphia Police Department, all of them. So he goes there and introduces himself. And every day after work from eight, sometimes until two in the morning, he's in the basement in the archives, just reading through these cases. Then he decides he wants to ride around with them. And now ride alongs that are common, this is the '50s. He spends three years every Friday and Saturday night riding around with Philadelphia police officers. And then he decides, it's the first study of its kind, he gets the record on every single kid born in Philadelphia in 1945 and then follows their entire criminal history because he wants to know, so there's 10,000 kids born in Philadelphia, boys born in Philadelphia in 1945, and he follows all 10,000 until they're like 25. Oh my God. And to see who gets in trouble with the law, what percentage. And what he discovers is this incredibly essential fact, which is the group of kids who end up on the wrong side of the law is tiny. This problem that seems to affect all of society and that has got us all terrified is, in his case, it was like 675 kids out of 10,000 basically did all the violence. And then this has been replicated. There's a famous study on the west side of Chicago, an area of 50,000 people. The number of people at any given time who are at risk for being shot or shooting someone is 400. That's the size of an elementary school. You could totally know those people are. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you had something in one of your other, whether it was a pocket or a block, right? It was just like, there are blocks in America where if you only contain that block, it would wipe out. When you realize that, you realize, oh, we don't have to engage in this kind of really like lofty conceptual rhetoric about, no, no, no, just, just find out who those 400 people are, give them some help, talk to them. It goes back to the, why does that interrupter stuff you was talking about, why does that work? Because they know who it is. Yeah. It's not a mystery, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can see who has a criminal record, who's resorted to violence in the past, whose friend just got shot. Yeah. And who's grieving. There's very obvious patterns to be observed. Okay, the last part is part three, which is moral absurdity. And I want to go through a little bit of what have been the historic challenges to the Second Amendment. And I think we need to talk about the Sullivan Act because I think suicide, again, another shield the gun advocates that people like to hide behind is like, it's all suicides. Is that fine? This comes up in one of the most distressing Supreme Court cases of recent years. There's a case called the Bruin case in which the court decided to throw out a law that had been in place in New York State for a hundred years, which basically made it very, very difficult for anyone to own a handgun in New York State. You had to get a license and the license was really hard to get. And like I said, New Yorkers had lived with this law very happily for a hundred years. It was put in place because of a famous murder in downtown Manhattan. Prominent writer was murdered by a kind of crazed fan. And it was so upsetting to people at the time. They were like, that's enough. So we've been living with this law for a hundred years. What was discovered was the existence of this law didn't really affect the homicide rate because most homicides, our illegal guns smuggled in from out of state. But it really did affect the suicide rate because most people who attempt to commit suicide regret if they have a second chance, they would take it. It is an expressive act of self-violence. And if there is a handgun lying around and accessible, people are likely to shoot themselves and die. And if there's no handgun around, they're more likely to either not try or try a less lethal means. This parallels your town gas story, no? Yes, it does. Exactly. From how many books ago? I can't even remember. England used to have a form of gas that they used in their ovens and it was highly poisonous. People committed suicide that way. At crazy rates. And the second they got, what, they put a smell in it or they got rid of it, it dropped, plummets. Yeah. So New York State historically has had a suicide rate that's half the national average. Given the fact that there are more suicide deaths in this country than there are homicide deaths, it's a very, very big deal. The court, throws out in this case called Bruin, uses this Focaccia interpretation of the Second Amendment to throw out this New York law of 100 years standing and never once mentions suicide. So like the justification for this law, the fact that it saves thousands of lives, was of no interest whatsoever to the court. All they cared about was that this was a technical violation of this strange historical interpretation they'd put on the Second Amendment. And I just thought, like, this is pretty much the nadir. That's something that's working. It was working. There wasn't any huge controversy over it. A couple of guys wanted to have handguns and couldn't get them. I don't even understand why it was necessary. I'm fine if other states don't want to do this. I think this is something that should be handled by the states. New York's a liberal state. If New Yorkers want to make it hard to get a handgun, God bless. I know. That was an example of the kind of thing, there are times when, when the kind of necessary and truce between different sides of the political spectrum gets violated unnecessarily. We can actually live together if we respect, but every now and again, someone's like, goes too far. This is an example of going too far. You didn't have to do that. Yeah. Yeah, let them have that. But it was this kind of indifference to the fact that handguns play a really, really huge role in suicide. That was so upsetting to me. And also, anytime you start poking around and find out these decisions, what foundation it's all stacked upon, we come to Sir John Knight, right? Oh my God. I didn't even know. This is like a fairy tale. The chapter is intended to be kind of hilarious. It is sort of hilarious if it were not so tragic. But one of the foundational figures in the gun rights movement's constitutional argument is this crazy 17th century English knight. Called Sir John Knight, who's like a racist, a slave owner, who has some legal tussle with the king, which was discovered by gun rights people in the 80s, and they have contrived to make it into this seminal landmark case that ought to alter our interpretation of the Second Amendment today. The whole thing is made up. I talked to all these English historians, by which I mean historians in England who studied their own history, and they're like, what are you guys doing? You've completely misunderstood what this was about. Yeah, the version they like to use is that Sir John Knight took some guns to a church, raised hell with all of his guns, then was tried and found innocent. So because he was acquitted, come to find out through all this research, A, he didn't bring his guns into the church. The issue here is, the court's really interested in the historical antecedents of the Second Amendment. And their argument is, we need to understand the way, the founders were thinking when they drafted that sentence. And so the significance of Sir John Knight is, hey, wait a minute, this is a case from England from the 17th century in which a man was accused of carrying guns illegally and got acquitted. And the court says, look, even the English were in favor of gun rights back in the 17th century. We have a rich history of defending this right. Going back to Sir John Knight, 1786, this is like used as justification that when they did the Second Amendment, they were drawn, they were drawing on hundreds of years of precedent in respecting the rights of people to carry guns. But it turns out the case they're using and pointing to is completely made up. That's not what it was about at all. He wasn't even carrying a gun into the church. He thought there was a Catholic conspiracy afoot. He was delusional. Well, first of all, I just loved it. In your textbook signature way, there were so many counterintuitive things I learned in the book. And to your earlier point, it's so important. It's so fun. The stories. If you listen, all these interviews with these experts, it's them speaking. You're getting so much. You're feeling the fatigue of them. You're feeling what they've been through. You know, it's not just the words. You really get a sense of these people who have dedicated their lives to dealing with this fucking mess we refuse to confront. I guess my last question to you is, I'm so pessimistic. Just, I don't know how we would get two thirds votes on anything, literally. Like, should we outlaw water? That couldn't be accomplished. The only thing I thought of, you just kind of said, I was like, could we minimally make this a states' rights issue? Let's let the states that want it have it. And then guys, you just live with all the violence. That's fine. Do you think there's any way out of this? I think it's time to turn our back on Washington. And what I was describing about, like what's happening in Baltimore and the Chicago thing I talk about, I think we got to do just grassroots stuff. I think that states and cities have to kind of rearrange their priorities between prisons and police. We've got to pursue a lot more of this direct homicide intervention stuff and then just leave the debates. If it happens at all, it's going to happen 50 years from now. And that doesn't help on the ground right now. Maybe this is a wake-up call that we spend too much time and attention trying to solve every problem through legislation. And maybe you should just be looking at other ways of addressing this stuff. I agree. And then there's like even strata of that. It's like, we're waiting on the national level for everything to be solved. And then we're ignoring the state level. We're ignoring the city level. You know, we're ignoring everything we have impact on and hoping that, you know, one person we all anoint is going to solve all these problems for us. The book is not intended to be depressing. It's supposed to kind of illuminate. I think it's incredibly optimistic because what it tells me is like, it's not a mystery. We know that we're trying to solve the wrong murders. they're not a significant percentage of what's going on. Like there's so much of, it I think is incredibly encouraging to me this book outlines many ways in which this which felt unsolvable feels solvable I feel like it's very optimistic I also think it's weirdly probably your most important book oh wow I mean truly just potential impact on our world this is I think your most important book and I just love it man I love it it's so good I'm grateful that you do what you do sincerely thank you and I said it publicly but I'll say it to your face we were embarrassed to be nominated for a golden globe and not sharing that with you that was ridiculous and we used every interview to say we did but I think I know why I think it's because only shows that were every week were nominated I don't think it was a limited series otherwise you would have won you would have swept it there is no reason to diminish your own considerable contributions to society in order to uplift me that's fair but if we have to unfortunately unfortunately it's still true you guys go who are you we went yeah did you dress up and everything yeah it was fun what did dax wear he dressed up an italian dinner jacket and shorts he wore a full suit and nice shoes no did you wear do you own this I can't even I can't even imagine dax in a suit I wear tux like probably eight times a year I have to wear tux all the time really I mean enough so that I own a couple I think actually dax would look good dressed up he does you think he looks very handsome and it is not what you're used to seeing so it's a nice nice change sometimes he wears converse because you just can't let himself wear the nice my new thing and my wife has signed off on it is now I wear a nice black t-shirt under my tux so that's kind of my new move and it still works it still works what do you wear on your feet though that depends I think I do draw the converse thing no there's lots of nice shoes you don't you know I think you can deviate from you can non-conform in other ways I think you can deviate from you can non-conform in other ways you can deviate from you can non-conform in other ways okay you're drawing a hard line for you that's like putting four spares on beautiful BMW I saw you arrive and by the way thank you thank you go go sixth baby shout out to my favorite car rental agency keep that in what is it it's a m2 40 what is it m2 40 m2 40 what do you love about it so much is it got a four-cylinder six oh that's a lot of motor for that tiny car straight six adequate it would be better if it was a manual but it's not can't rent a manual sadly does it have a dual clutch trans though is it a proper even no okay this is the first time I've driven it it's delightful it's the best BMW other ones are bloated now okay I have a car question actually tell them what you're doing oh my god that's what I want would you ever do you know the car I bought her yeah I bought her a c43 oh it's very very nice very appropriate I like perfect car for her thank you I love it a little bit of razzmatazz too like it's got some I hear her leaving her house she lives across the street and I always know when Monica leaves I'm like that's how it should be people should be warned she's coming well do you eat in your car do I eat in my car yeah I do not but my wife does okay I object I simmer and she looks at me with hostility and then she will say things like she's talking about her own mother my own mother never let me eat in the car look away yeah what are you supposed to do what are you doing your mother's on my side yeah you were taught I do a lot she stopped it in and out the other day well she left a tuna fish sandwich in that car and then she went to Monica you have this beautiful German masterpiece with this gorgeous leather and it smells like a foot inside of a hamburger joint go inside and eat no I don't want to go inside I need to be efficient I need to be wrapped in leather when I eat I'm in shock a tuna fish sandwich you left in your brand new c43 it's not brand new when did I get 2020 four years I don't know it's all that old yeah there's very little miles on it it runs great it's super nice but no I plug the tires on it probably every what 18 months the tires are bad I don't know what's going on with those tires but there's always issues if it's definitely the car's problem not mine but okay so you're a no one eating that's where I'll stop okay I mean you want to eat something that doesn't have a ton of fragrance to it sure you want to pound some rice cakes in there or something that's at least solvable with a vacuum once you get that deep hamburger smell in there oh my god I think you'd love to know the lengths of which they go do to make that interior or they're sourcing that leather to drip animal-style fries on it I said it it's not like I made the seat a plate I wasn't like putting the burger on the leather I'm gonna spare you to tell him everything that's happened in that car okay Malcolm I adore you thank you so much for coming and people please please please read or listen to the American way of killing an invention of an epidemic out now oh my God right now when you finish this I promise you this is in my top 10 books of all time already listen to it immediately the American Way of Killing be well I want to start uh is baby tired tight tight well a little but for good reason because I um had breakfast this morning with Callie my best friend at what time 9 15. okay well this might coordinate beautifully with my first question for you right which is I was driving Lincoln to play rehearsal last night uh-huh and we drove through the neighborhood which we never do yes and you're you're there were so many cars in front of us it was one of them Simone's did I recognize I'm good with these cars you're very good you're very good what was happening at Casa de Padman um I was getting ready for another event oh my God back-to-back events I did did they lose your car this time no I ubered there we go yes I did think about bringing my car and I was like I learned my lesson never do it again not doing that what was the event last night it was for the who what where 20th anniversary celebration who what where is a really cool um started out as a website and kind of turned into this whole media Empire yes um by my friend Hillary Kerr she started that and um 20 years ago what is it well again it's like a website but then there's a podcast it's a whole thing it's uh um it's a web it's a web it's an empire it's a content machine yeah about style style yes oh that's a lot of pressure oh trust me I know what did you wear do you post your pics yeah you do not check my Insta I wasn't on all day because I was uh researching I wore a very in my opinion cute outfit okay it was a leather skirt oh my goodness but it had a very um a really flowy uh top on top on top um that like kind of looked like a dress but it's actually a shirt top but it's long so like there's only a little bit of the skirt poking out at the bottom the leather skirt okay both items from the row oh okay so you were excited to put this on yeah but I had I did have a this is just like people will be mad but what are we gonna do this is my life um I had some outfits I was gonna wear for I had like put aside to maybe wear for this yeah but I never got anything altered in time so then yesterday morning I did have a panic I was like I didn't I had all these things nothing fits what am I gonna do and so I whether we say this is fortunate or unfortunate have a direct line to the row oh my goodness yeah how could you label it anything but fortunate well because it's going to be a cash exactly exactly yes because I texted my friend like me having an account at bring a trailer that would be dangerous that's the auction website for cars yeah context um yes so Max who works at the row LA and is your best friend he is he is yes I adore him um yeah I just texted him I said is I have this event and is there anything in the store that that looks cute and he sent me a bunch of pictures a bunch of things and we picked this and he just had it messenger oh my God it is really because my you know they have my credit card oh well you don't even have to I don't even have to oh yeah that's not good it's bad it's bad it's bad you basically have an Amazon account at the row that's dangerous yeah Prime um trying to think what would be the most dangerous place for me you said rent a trailer rent a trailer yeah I love renting trailers I would rent more trailers than I could tell what is it called I do have more tail trailers than I could yeah I think for you it would be like high factors or like medical equipment yeah that would be not good if I was dialed there um newly I've been really I've been into shopping a little bit lately yeah you have a cute outfit on well I have like you know I love the God's true cashmere those are my favorite shirts they're too hot for me I run too hot and they're casual but my double r ralph oh it's time okay let me look at your instagram we take we pause this for we pause because we have stuff to do broadcast for this oh yeah so cute it hangs out a lot that skirt i would say not a little certain depending on certain angles past your knees in this photo unless that's your purse uh the skirts past my knees yeah in this photo yeah it is a little past but the top see where the top ends top ends mid-thigh right skirts below the knee correct i was happy i was very happy with it it hasn't come through yet oh my god it's crazy is that erica in that photo anna oh i see anna oh no that's mara mara rozak oh she kind of looks without my glasses looks like i could see that i could see that mara rozak was one of the cars you saw at my house mara is one of the best hairstylists to live in america usa you know there's just so many ways to be talented in this world like i it's it's wild she what she does is voodoo and then like anna came and um she wasn't getting her hair done but then mara just kind of looked at it and she just like she kind of like blew on it and the whole thing just transformed came to life it's a talent it's a real talent okay well i'm like this sucks because you just not it hasn't come through yet i'm just gonna keep it there two minutes late oh you should send someone a text oh i have a funny update speaking of late okay do you remember my ent story did i even tell it yeah yeah that i sat in the room for an hour yes okay and then i've been having way too many ruminations about is it up i'm waiting sorry i don't really know what i can tell you hold on i'm gonna send a text yeah send a text and double check i'm in the middle of a very important recording god you can really hammer on it when you want to oh my god oh my god you're gonna break the screen oh fuck you have slash marks all over the lower part of here oh my god you look like a little gremlin oh my god there's a chimp texting no wonder you replace your phone every 18 months oh by the way my brand new phone sucks okay i want to say something about my brand new no we can't because it'd be like kelly clarkson we got yeah isn't that such a fun i don't even even know it i just know that i don't want to let me tell you something yeah it's not like kelly clarkson because my beef is not with a teeny store it is with i know one of our largest corporations but when people use their big platform to go after well it's not going after i'm just saying that i don't it's probably me but like i still have i'm still having issues it could be a lemon okay you know you wouldn't have got a lemon at toyota of orange all right i really think we should just move on and then i'll get a text saying it's up yeah okay great okay great anyways the ent uh so uh you know i was waking up ruminating so i took a sleep test that takes three days then they tell you it's going to be seven days for the results to go to your doctor well of course seven days goes by the doctor doesn't reach out in 10 days and 12 days all the while i'm having these ruminating dreams where i wake up and i i'm for 45 minutes i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god I think about the fact that like I refuse to go back to this place yet. I have to get the results Like what was the point of taking the the of course the test if i'm not going to get the results But i'm also not going to go back there and spend two hours at the place to hear either I do or do not have sleep apnea. Yeah, so I have my general practitioner call and get the results. Of course the results have been there Let's just start there. They never called to say the results there. But when I have my gp call they have them Yeah, but my gp is not a sleep expert. So he's like, I know i'm looking at the results It seems like you don't have it and i'm like I need to know from the actual ent So then I call up the ent and they're like, okay Yeah, let's schedule time for you to come and get the results and I go well I said listen i'd rather not come in. I live in los feliz. Also last time I was there. It was a couple hours And so if there's a way we could do it over the phone, I would prefer that and then they're like, well, um You know, I can ask and really hem on about that, but I they commit to that. Okay So we commit To them calling me for a telehealth appointment at 2 45 p.m On wednesday, okay 245 comes around Wait for my call. I got my focus on I got my ringer on They called it 354 Oh my god, they were an hour and nine minutes late For the fucking telehealth very very frustrating. So then I Start talking to them. Oh, i'm, sorry. We're late and I you know, and i'm like, okay, but is it still an option? Can I get on the phone with him? Yeah, let me see blah blah blah So then the guy gets on the phone. He's like hey Yeah, i'm looking at this and uh, you know, you don't have sleep apnea and I go. Okay, great Um, I said look I want to say this with love and respect and I saw your waiting room It's totally full. You don't need to worry about me But I need to point out I came to your office and sat in an exam room for an hour before you came in And then you took an hour to give me a five minute thing I said today you were supposed to call it 2 45 You called it 3 54. I said i'm just gonna suggest that your scheduling department probably needs a little work. Okay, and he goes You're right. You should be mad. I'm mad Oh, yeah, you shouldn't have to wait for two hours and we shouldn't be an hour I'm mad at you know what i'm mad at myself. I kept saying don't I have something at two? No I kept saying don't I have a oh he's turning on everyone else He says it was His fault, but then he immediately says that he had been saying don't I have a 245? I don't believe at all He ever said we don't know Yeah, he's the doctor there and then it became this hilarious thing. We're like now I'm comforting him. I go look. It's fine Everything's fine. I love you. I'm coming back. I love my way. I got but I'm taking this FedEx package right now It was definitely that situation Well, I just stuck on the phone with him while he said it was his fault But then also said he tried to talk to me at 2:45 and no one would let him it was so Crazy I wanted why I would never said it's like it's it's time to retire. Oh, this is mad lord. Okay He is very very old in the nonsensical loop about him being at fault But also he tried to call me which is it was it was well, I want to say something but I'm nervous You're gonna make it. I don't want to fight. Okay, I don't either. I really don't I don't like to fight me and we're not gonna but I do want to break something. Yeah. Yeah, like three minutes ago Yeah, before you told this story that I want to hear I loved it. Yeah You were like don't Complain about a business. Yeah a business. Yeah, so I didn't say his name. That's the huge distinction I am not outing anybody and I'm not trying to get anyone's business to go under it's totally different This is just an anonymous ENT. I've been so Conscious of not doing because I won't do it. Look I have flights sometimes that make me so angry And I want to come on here. Yeah and say it and I don't ever do it Well, I don't ever bless the company and I'm really mad at a lot of companies a lot of the time Okay. Well, I didn't say the company you inferred the company Okay, and I don't think it's the company's fault Necessarily, I just think the device I currently am holding Something's wrong with it. Yeah Because I went with another friend to get her phone at the same time and she's not having these issues No problem, so it could be a lemon. Uh-huh And it's an unnamed company that made me you're holding the product Listen was holding the auntie's business card I never said his name By the way, I'm never stopping buying these. Yeah Company's product. Yeah unnamed company Um, so yeah, okay now I what happened with Kelly Clarkson. Okay. Can you do you know all the deeds? I do I don't I thought that there was a video I could watch. I know I didn't have time to do that I haven't actually watched the vid, but I have heard about it. Um, I I for some reason kind of loved this story and I think it's because The were my I need to clean out my algorithm trying to do cleanse. It is so Depressing right now and not even just like the world is depressing, right? Like yes like Geopolitically it's a mess. Yes, I'm patients through the goddamn room. Everything's bad, but Really? I'm getting like this. It's a horrible story about the man that fell off the rollercoaster Was a dad then like I just like I'm getting like personal stories that really feel heavy on my heart. Yeah. Yeah, so This story was like feels light to me Yeah, yeah, it's inconsequent. Well, it could be consequences of the proprietor, but if I know the details at all, yeah It's a little exactly that seems I don't even know. Okay, so this is what happened from what I gleaned Okay, Kelly Clarkson went into a store in Brooklyn like a small Trinket small business. Yeah, there's trinkets, but I think they do like kids shows there and it's like a fun part of Brooklyn and She went in and she wanted to purchase a animatronic Owl or something. Oh, yeah bird. Oh, wow. Rob's got an actual photo named Molly. That bird is named Molly molly wow you really know this story inside and out okay so that was hanging on the wall at this brooklyn joint yes and she it's not for sale or well okay pause so she wanted to buy it and according to her um she was pretty womaned there like there it was fifteen thousand dollars you can't like you would not be able to buy it it's fifteen thousand dollars but we can help you look for something similar or like something cheaper or something according to her and then she's she's pretty woman big mistake huge and then um huge and she called them out the name of the on her on her daytime show twitter i was on twitter okay interesting yeah so okay so so that's still that's exactly a platform interesting that she's still using that platform but a little bit incriminating but she basically says if you want to feel pretty woman go to and then they responded great what they said and they basically said molly is a fixture in this store she is not for sale boom and we said this but and then she responded she said no that is not what happened so it is a she said she said it is it's a molly said kelly said it is she said she said and um listen overall i agree with you that if you're someone of means if you have an enormous megaphone yes you should not call out this small business specifically i do think you're entitled to complain you're entitled to tell that story i do think saying specifically the store is maybe a bridge too far really quick you also are trusting your perspective a little too much there's a little bit of lack of humility which is like there's a certainty of what happened to the degree that you'll you know attack she but that's also why it's like i don't she's not someone who gets into these things so it's not like i think she really remembers it that way yeah yeah yeah and i think probably it did happen that way maybe i don't know i don't know it wasn't there okay and i did watch the video um but what do we think happens in the video i think you see them talking exactly i don't even know is there audio exactly i don't know find out if there's audio okay but um i you know of course it made me do some introspection uh-huh sure i've done this feel i've done this pretty woman a lot not a lot twice i've talked about it twice okay okay and one time was a small business and i did not name it yeah so i feel good about that okay the other time was chanel uh-huh and i feel fine about that um i do i feel fine about calling that out because actually my beef was not with chanel it was with a person and i did not name him okay and i don't know his name so i can't name right unfortunately but it did make me think i was like yeah i mean are you allowed to complain are you not and then i was like i mean on your podcast you can kind of complain you can do what you want as long i think you should complain but i don't think you should ever hurt anyone i agree i think there has to be a principle you have i agree even if the guy was an asshole he might have been an asshole that day and he's a great guy otherwise yeah like if you catch someone in the worst moment in your life and then you broadcast on a very large megaphone this assessment of a person in this one interaction yeah also doesn't feel terribly fair sure but these are experiences people have in life and they want to share them excluding you i have a few people in my life or almost every interaction i hear about with them yeah someone's always dismissing them right no i know that's bad and so i don't feel that way i don't think we can trust ourselves so much i know you remember that when i went to the c word store um i was with a friend who i was ready to write that experience she was the one who was she was like nope on your behalf that was bad yeah she's like that was bad but mainly that story was to indicate like you can't tell who has money anymore that's true and so you just should be careful it's cautionary tale yeah you should be careful if you're working in a biz to it's not like you can't tell who has money anymore i think it's definitely one thing if something's not for sale like i think exactly yeah that's it that's why if you come to my house and you say you like my tv and then i don't sell to you like i don't know but maybe this guy who she was talking to or woman i don't know forgot that part maybe they just said oh whatever and then the store is like oh it's not for sale and she's like well no one told me that yeah who knows it's security footage so there's no audio so yeah so what are we gonna get from that i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know but they released it so they must feel pretty confident it it exonerates them right i mean she didn't release the security footage i know but like it doesn't do anything if we also kind of a win for them i bet they're huge now well that's the thing i bet everyone went there and bought every trinket but they are saying like people are mad but then i do think they're getting a lot of business so i mean ultimately she probably didn't have a favor yeah apparently the bird is up for sale for 15 million dollars now 15 million yeah they oh shit don't tell monica that wait now they put it up for sale now yeah for 15 million okay but now i think that's rude what if she bought it yeah she's a big mistake but they're like okay no now i'm on her side stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare there was also one that was viral that was like sandler's daughter but then he went in there and bought everything for her and i'm like i didn't they get rewarded i haven't heard that one you don't remember that one it was so popular like a summer ago or something oh it's really funny too if you break down the pretty woman thing yeah let's do it this is dangerous let's do it she was a broke prostitute i mean but in that moment in that moment she had his credit card she was walking in the store and and as someone who couldn't afford yeah she was there to buy stuff and but it's just funny what it represents to us it's like well in truth just the reality was she can't go to that store and buy stuff you don't know that's the whole that's literally the whole point is classic don't judge a book by its cover you have no idea you have no idea and they didn't have any idea that she had met this guy they didn't know that she was flush with cash yeah so if a homeless dude rolls in holding his sleeping bag he has no money to buy anything in the store are they obligated to take everything out of inventory and let him try every single thing on so that he then at the end of it can be like all right peace i have no money that we got to be somewhat realistic about um life if he doesn't have mental health issues he should be i think he has to be so there's no how about this is there any responsibility on the person who cannot afford the shit to be in there making money and not be able to afford the shit making people work around them and accommodate them when they can't buy anything is that a right human beings have i i know i think you're allowed to walk in no i think you are allowed to walk in any store you want and have the people spend all their energy and time and accommodating you when you can't buy anything it's not their time it's their job that's literally their job when i was 18 i had no money and i went to the ferrari dealership should they have let me do a test drive yeah they don't they don't know they don't know dax and by the way they really don't know you in the future could and did have the means to do that so you have no idea what you're i'm just saying you your own personal responsibility i would be a shithead to go waste a salesman's hour of their life take on the liability of having me drive this expensive car that i can't replace if i smash it on the ride like i'm asking all these people to do all this shit because i want to experience this ferrari for a half hour but i can't buy where's my personal responsibility i mean i guess i'm just entitled to drive a ferrari because i want to well if it's if it is the rule that you can i don't know about car dealerships i don't know if you can walk in and do that or if you have to make an appointment you have to get pre if i walk in right now and ask to test drive a ferrari they'll let me yeah but can anyone because i can buy one all right and i can replace it if i destroy it on the test drive but can you can anyone like do that i mean you erase you because there's so many people who don't have a car they don't have a to that but like normally for a test drive don't you have to kind of like make an appointment or something no you can just walk in you can walk into a dealer right now and go to toyota and say i like this car can i test drive it yeah i think personally i think some personal decency would be if you can't buy the car you shouldn't make these people whose job it is to spend their limited eight hours and trying to sell them that's i don't think that's cool of you but how do we get onto this you can i'm saying this whole thing we have the pretty woman thing is based on this thing that it would be so offensive that they didn't assume she had money well i guess yes but based on exactly i kind of think what you're saying which is for the other person who's being pretty woman they're going into the first of all i i totally disagree that you can't go if you don't have maybe the means to buy a celine purse that you can't go into celine and go look at that you should be able to I think you can look at them. I think when you're asking the employees there to give you their time and resources to go pull merchandise and let you try on different things? No. Well, also no, because like there are times I go into a store, I mean, rarely and unfortunately that I go into a store and I pick out a lot of things to try on and then I don't get anything. Yeah, but you could and would have. I know, but it wasn't a waste of their time. It was. They didn't get anything from that. They got zero. There was a potential for a sale. If you don't have any money, there is no potential. You're just entertaining a human being who wants to try on pretty clothes. And I don't think someone's just entitled. But you don't know anything about their life. They might have a rich mom who might buy them that for Christmas. Like you don't know. And so you just. No, I'm trying to give you an example. We know. Is it ethical for someone who cannot buy the thing to make a bunch of people run around and grab samples for them and try stuff on if they can't buy it? I mean. I'd say no. I personally. It's the same as going into a restaurant and having the chef make you a huge meal and then you go, oh, I can't pay for it. That's not that at all. You cannot go to a restaurant and not pay. Well, the labor of a salesperson is getting you the things and watching you try them on and getting you different sizes. Like that's the chef. But no, you can't go into a restaurant and not pay. That's illegal. It's not. No, you order and then it comes and then you go, oh, you know what? I can't do that. I know you can't do it. They've already made it. I know you can't do that. This is very analogous because you've just gobbled up people's time. That's not why you can't do it. You're not. You can't not do it because you just wasted people's time. I'm saying that's why it's morally wrong. Well, it's morally wrong because no, I don't. I don't agree as also someone who like used to go try on a lot of stuff they couldn't afford. Yeah. First of all, I thought I wasn't even going to say that. But yes, like also when I worked at SoulCycle, people come in all the time. They're trying on the clothes. They're asking for sizes. I do that. Yeah. That they're not obligated to buy anything. That's not the point. If they couldn't possibly have bought anything. I don't know if they can. It's my whole point. I know. I'm asking you to give a verdict on whether you think it's morally right to go make somebody waste all that time when you know, you know, you can't buy it. I just don't think it's a waste. So I do. I do. I do not think it's morally wrong. OK. Yeah, I don't. Because you might buy that later or someone might buy it for you or you might come across twenty thousand dollars on the street and go right back. I don't think it's a waste. And I definitely as just some as someone who works, I'm just like, if you work in retail, yeah, that is your job, regardless of if it's a quote waste of your time. It's not a waste of your time. You have to be there. There is an unwritten premise, though, that they could buy it. You're not helping them to have make them have a good day. You're helping them because the idea is they might buy. Yeah. But if there's zero way they can buy it, then I do think you're kind of using up someone's time. Well, their their job is not that's not their job. Their job isn't to to sell merchandise. Well, not depends, I guess, on the store. Right. Like most stores you go into, they're not like, oh, look at this. They're not selling you. Their job is to sell the products in the retail store. No one's job is there to be like a social liaison to the community or be friends with people. They're normally at these places getting paid a fixed amount of money hourly. They're not getting commission commission, potentially different. OK, I could see that if someone's getting paid on commission and you go in and you are wasting their time completely when somebody else could also standing there that can buy it, though, even if for this business, there's five people walk in and you got to spend thirty five minutes on something that has no intention of buying anything. Well, there's others for other people that we're going to buy stuff. I think that's a problem. I think normally, though, there's other people like you rarely see someone just like standing and not being helped in any of these stores. No, I don't go shopping. So I'm going to have to defer to your expertise. Yeah, Norm. I've I've rarely seen that. I just think it's a funny thing. Everyone thinks that they are entitled to have. Yeah, I think it's a funny thing that everyone thinks that they are entitled to have people go get them a bunch of stuff that they if they can't buy it. Yeah. I think you should should be able to have to buy. No, no. Yeah, of course you can look. Yeah, but I'm not saying you're not allowed in a store. It's when you're gobbling up someone's resources. But gobbling up is is a tricky thing to say, because either way, it's gobbling up if you don't buy it. It is. The employee doesn't have to allocate any of their attention or resources to you to be looking around the store. If you're making them get you sizes and run stuff to a dressing room, they can't be helping someone who would buy it. I know, but I'm saying this happens 90% of the time people go shopping. You try on a bunch of things, you don't like any of it, and you leave. Yes, but you could have. But that's the part that we like. That's a huge difference. You could have never anyways. So you know you're wasting this person's time. You enter going, yeah, I'm going to make this person run around the store, and I don't feel bad at all because I saw a pretty woman. I don't know. It's not because you saw a pretty woman. It's because you wanted to try on the things and you want some people. I mean, people go try on wedding dresses and stuff, and they're not necessarily going to buy it like single people. I don't know if anyone does that. I actually I do think people who try on wedding dresses are getting married. No, some of them just want I want to just go try some on. Okay. I think you should pay that person that helps you. Two hours of someone's time. I think you are kind of paying for those things. Well, you should. If it takes two hours of someone's time to give you wedding dresses. Oh, I never finished my thing. I've recently really got addicted to getting the Ralph Lauren double R shirts. Oh, that's what you're wearing right now. Yeah. And I noticed, you know, I'm like, wow, I like their shirts. Maybe I should look at their pants. And then I got some pants. Shopping. And then I got two sweaters, not from them, but somewhere else. And I'm like, oh, I'm in a little phase. This is what I do. I'll shop for two months. Yeah. And then not for two years. Yeah. So I'm acquiring some stuff you'll be seeing for the next two years. Yeah. I like what you're picking. Okay. Ding, ding, ding, shopping. And you should be able to go wherever you want and try on whatever you want and leave it there. You know, actually, I will say sometimes I have the opposite problem. I'll go in. I'll ask for a lot of things to try on. And then I do feel guilty. I'm like, I guess I got to kind of buy something I've been in. And that's bad. No, you should not spend money for no reason. Yeah, I don't think you should. You go in there with good faith of I'm trying to find something I'm going to buy. And then if that doesn't work out, that's fine. That's good faith. You go in there and you're like, I owe $15,000. I can't buy a stick of gum. I'm going to make this person run around the store for two hours. I think it's a little. I understand what you're saying. I don't think that happens. Okay. I just don't think that happens because I'm pretty woman. That's not what was happening. She was there to buy something for her event. Yeah. I mean, the reason it is an urban, like it has the stickiness of an urban legend is because it triggers our fear. Yeah. That people are dismissing us. Yes, they did. And that we're invisible. Yeah. But I think we've, we have channeled that fear of being invisible or living in a class society into this event. And I think it brought a lot of like power to this one thing. If you really start poking at it, Kelly Clarkson, no woman. Oh no, it was perfect. I know it was perfect because it's felt emblematic of a very universal fear that we will not be taken seriously. Yeah. That people will dismiss you based on non-realities. Like that's what it's being misunderstood is really what it is because big mistake huge is not like, oh, they think it's, they think this. This thing that's wrong about me. Well, hold on though. They're right about her. No. Monica, they were wrong about this extraordinary, never happens in real life scenario where the sex worker met up with a super wealthy guy who gave her the credit card to go shopping. One cannot account for the probability of that being the case. Well, you must, that's the whole point. You must, you have no idea. It's funny how much sense it makes to everybody. Yeah. You'd have no idea. Again, back to what Maddie said. Huh? You have no idea who just met a very wealthy John. No, you have no idea anything about a person. You have, we have, you have no idea. And you got to treat people like, well, they were right up to the point where they didn't know she had met a John that was rich. Dax, you're missing, you are missing the point so deeply. It's crazy. Okay. It was so insane that happened last night. I returned home with Lincoln. I've picked her up from rehearsal and there is a man that's pulling into my driveway right as we're pulling in. And so we can't slash, maybe I could have gone around him to get in the gate, but also there's just a dude in a car and I don't want to open the gate. So some dude can drive in. So I rolled down the window and I go, Hey, can I help you? And I'm in there with Lincoln and he goes, I'm looking for an address. And I go, Oh, what's the address? He said, 200. And I go, that's not this address. And he goes, ah, he rolls up his window and he just sits there. Now we're sitting there, we're all sitting there, sitting there, sitting there. So then I roll, you know, I roll down the window, i go hey man you're you're in my driveway yeah and he goes i don't care and i am oh no you can you imagine i mean it's at my home yeah right it's like triggering of course it is triggering i and i am with lincoln oh and i'm just like i can't do anything okay you know i'm also not gonna open the gate this guy already seems fucking nuts yeah there's no address anywhere in la that's 200 no the streets are in the thousands like what is he fucking talking about yeah this goes on for so long i fucking signal him again roll down the way he won't roll on his window he's sitting there sitting there sitting there and then uh i get him somehow to roll down the window again and i go i go hey man you gotta go somewhere else and wait because we gotta get inside and he goes i don't care and he rolls up the window and so i was holding my phone up but i wasn't filming him i was just i don't know what i was i might have been looking at the doorbird or some shit and then he rolls on his window he goes don't film me and then he's clearly about to leave now okay and i said you are so lucky i'm with my daughter yeah yeah and he goes oh what are you going to do grandpa bind you this guy monica this guy looked at least five years older than me he goes oh what are you going to do grandpa and i go what the fuck are you talking about and then finally now lincoln lincoln's never on my side right if there's any dust up she hates it of course but i've been playing it so cool yeah and lincoln goes how old do you think he is you're not younger than him she now gets involved good he goes oh he is 60 years old oh my god this is insane he was 60 years old and lincoln goes how old are you and he goes 27 monica this guy was at least 50 he goes 27 and i go then you need to go to a fucking doctor and then he goes you have cancer what this is all with lincoln it was all and now what i love is now lincoln is like with me kind of right yeah he's on your side it was insane he's calling me grandpa and i said my daughter i'm like what how do you what do you think this is my granddaughter he's calling me grandpa he said he was 27 it was insane and he's he was 27 and when he finally drove away the amount i wanted to drop lincoln in the driveway and go it was the last time i was in the car and i was like oh my god the most amount of restraint i've had you uh apply in a very very long time oh my god and we went inside and it took me about 12 minutes to just handle that i didn't get to i'm proud of you and about an hour later when i was out in jail and i hadn't broken my hand yes and i wasn't getting sued yes and i was thinking of malcolm gladwell and talking about how crimes we murders we think are crime related they're not they're arguments crimes of passion and i was like oh good i when i hear about how stupid people are that they escalate escalate i'm judgmental of and i know it's wrong but then when i found myself in the situation i was like i cannot accept that this guy's he's been calling me grandpa he claims he's 27 he would not leave my driveway yeah i mean he's obviously an insane person oh uh but anyways i was happy i don't think that guy should go and to be in the ferrari store and be able to drive i'm sure he would oh you're not letting me drive because i'm 27 grandpa oh my god you have cancer did you consider remember that you have cancer is the craziest the enthusiasm though lincoln had retelling mom and delta once we got in the house you know it was an event oh that's fine yeah malcolm gladwell i love him so much yeah just the very best um one fact i caught that i never would have looked up so i started listening to his book immediately of course i had been waiting and waiting yeah and it's great obviously but when he talks about the magazine that he would get life it's life but he said time oh really yeah interesting yeah that's comforting that he messed because his recall is so daunting i know that's quite comforting uh-oh no it's not the same magazine but they are created by the same person and published by the same company time warner probably yeah but time is a news magazine and life is a general interest photojournalism magazine so anywho yeah i remember from his book it was life right but he was saying time in the book life in the interview time we'll never know which one it was well i bet it's life should i ask him yeah he might be mad that he's getting called out this is time sensitive so i you'll get back to me in time but we're recording the we're recording the fact check and interestingly in your book you got life magazine and you read it but in the interview you said it was time magazine and i'm inclined to think it was really life but now we realize we don't know whether we should believe the book or you or was it both i have to reissue the book if it's wrong in the book he needs you know what he needs to say whether whatever the truth is he needs to say life because it's in the book yeah and he'll get sued yep by us okay i looked up how much american cops get paid versus other countries that make pretty good money yeah it says american police officers are among the highest paid law enforcement professionals in the world with a national median base salary of seventy six thousand two hundred and ten dollars per year though total compensation frequently crosses a hundred thousand dollars and above i think the name of the game in policing much like union employment is um overtime right so what's interesting is that then we get into another conundrum that could have come up in this conversation which is like we refuse to acknowledge how much policing we're going to need so we end up having few far too few officers that we end up having to pay overtime to so we're paying a time and a half of what if we would just hire the right amount of people yeah so it's another way that we're seemingly fiscally responsible but really irresponsible yeah that makes sense and it's but it was confusing to me because i thought well maybe these other places have more because maybe they're paying them more and it like draws more people yeah but not the case not the case except switzerland and luxembourg do have a higher average sure luxembourg okay oh which writer's death in manhattan prompted the sullivan act it was david graham phillips an investigative journalist shot and killed outside the princeton club in new york city by a mentally ill man named fitzhugh coyle goldsboro who mistakenly believed the author had passed had based a novel on his family yeah he got convinced because he would often write about high society in the scruples or the you know yeah folly of that yeah and he got convinced one was about his sister and he was from a very well-to-do family yeah and bought an apartment in the middle of the street and went directly across the street from him so he could watch him through the window and then what's interesting about the sullivan act which we didn't talk about which is in the book is he then killed himself after he shot the novelist and the point of the sullivan act was twofold in that it would have prevented a suicide and a murder yeah yeah oh which of his books references the drop ding ding ding god horrible ding ding ding and suicide rates in england because of the oven town gas uh-huh and that's talking to strangers what we should know about the people we don't know um and that's it for facts that's it for facts yeah incredible book really really great i wasn't just saying that because he was in front of us it's it's one of my faves and it's really guys it's short as hell yeah it's very entertaining it it but it like it moves really fast but also it's five hours yeah on audiobook i decided to listen audio because that was you know what he prefers yeah and he has music and stuff like that and the real interviews as opposed to reading it's really good audio yes yeah all right all right