Making People Strategy Work at Scale with Trace Durning of Idox

I think HR continues to be an enabler. We do provide access to learning and development, but I don't think that we are the sole individuals who actually provide that learning and development. I think with AI in particular, it is the subject matter experts that we would look to. We have got different aspects of development that's available for people, whether it be using different tools that are available. We have drop-in sessions, so there's a number of different routes to developing, and as I said, I actually think it's down to individuals. Welcome to the WorkOps podcast. In every episode, we dig into one story, a process that went sideways, a system that just didn't work, and what someone actually did about it. It's packed with practical lessons that you want to bring straight back to your team. This podcast is brought to you by Kinfolk, the AI Service Desk built for HR. I'm your host, Jeet McRigee, and with that, let's dive in. Hey everybody, today I am joined by Trace Daning, who's the Chief People and Culture Officer at Idox. Great, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Nice to see you. Yeah, nice to see you again. Before we jump into things, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you choose HR? Okay, sure, interestingly, I'm not sure that I initially chose HR. I got involved in a bit of a later stage, so it wasn't my initial choice, when I started employment, and I got involved with our HR division and became part of it when I worked in the finance world, and I was actually a change manager, and involved in really large-scale global change transformation programme. And part of that as leading on the change activities was actually rolling out a new proposition to a business area. So I toured the country spending time with many different senior stakeholders in the organisation, and it became really, really clear that we were missing a really critical part of rolling out change in the organisation, which was that supporting coaching, post-training, post-rollout, really coaching and developing and helping people embrace the change. And as a result of that, I had the opportunity to become a coaching partner and subsequently a people development partner, so I actually got involved in HR side of training and people development and supporting around the sort of performance of colleagues in the business, et cetera, and partners with, partnered with senior leaders across the country. So I sort of accidentally fell into it through my passion for change and supporting people through that change. Nice, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. How much of do you think HR's responsibility is that change management piece, or do you kind of see that as a different function? I think it's all intrinsically linked, and I actually, in my current role, having my care, the people and talent team, but I also have change management, and I also have PR and comms, and I think they're all intrinsically linked because every single one of them touches on people in some shape or form, and I think they've all got to be complimentary and support each other. So in answer to your question, I think it's a partnership, so I think HR or people functions are there to support and make sure that we are laying all the foundations to support any change in the business. However, I think that in this ever-changing world that we operate in, I think that not only do line managers and other leaders have a responsibility to lead in coach and support through change, I think at an individual level as well, we all do, that if we want to succeed and make change effective, it's really important that we all take responsibility for any change that would implement. Yeah, that's really great to hear that. All those different functions are working together. Do you feel that is kind of the best way to structure the team, where all of those do report into an under HR, or is it just how it's worked at Idox, and have you seen other models work well? I think I wouldn't say that those other areas fall with any HR, I think that perception may be because of my role title, but I think I work with my peer group across the exec team, we all work very closely together, and I don't think it's perceived that those functions fall within HR. They're all part of an overall division, and HR happens to be part of that. So I think they've all got their roles to play in, they're all complimentary. I don't know that it necessarily sits within the people function. Yes, and when we talk about AIDs, they previously, it was seen as this thing that AID would manage, and it would be a technological shift. But as we've seen a lot with many, many leaders that we speak with, it's a change management piece. It's a people shift, because we're talking about transitioning skills and other tasks that we do. And so how does the tech piece play into your role? Because it sounds like you've got the culture piece, the comms, the PR, the marketing does tech fall under that as well, or does it separate? So we actually have a chief technology officer, and we've got a senior leadership team within the technology division of the business, who work very closely with our CTO. In terms of any change that we're implementing anywhere in the business, and as you say, AI very relevant, any change that we're implementing, we would be supporting the leader that's leading on that. So I think our AI strategy absolutely has an owner in that space, but it's very much in a partnership basis that we operate in partnership with each other to roll it out, specifically in the people's space. However, one of the things that I've done at Idox in terms of our organizational design is actually change the actual setup of our people team, whereby we have got an HR information system in place. We're moving very much towards giving people autonomy in the tools in order to self serve and making sure that the people partners are there to focus and support on the really critical aspects that where people really truly need support from an experienced people partner. So within the people function, I have actually introduced a group lead of HR technology, and never did I think that I would be in this role introducing an HR technology role years ago when I was that people partner. So yeah, that's something that I would say has evolved over the last couple of years, and it just felt like the right thing to do in order to make sure that we've got the right capabilities within the team, and we've got somebody who is in house who not only understands the the technical side of things and the opportunity that we have from an AI perspective, but they all also are experienced as a people professional, HR professional. So that's been something that's actually been really refreshing, rather than thinking my goodness, you know, AI, what are we going to do in our area of the business? We've got somebody who knows HR tech inside out, as well as understands what colleagues need across the business. Yeah, that's so key, right? Like we hear often that yes, we have AI, but actually the tools that are being built with AI, and in fact, even pre AI, the software that was being built did not have HR in mind, and therefore it wasn't quite fit for purpose. So it's really great to hear. Was this person someone that you hired from internally who was already a person in HR on your team, or did you bring them in from outside? Yeah, they came from outside, actually, this individual, and they've bedded really, really well into the team and great HR professional experience, as well as being so passionate about the technology side of things. So yeah, really, really good combination. Great. And what we hear often is that there's an expectation from not just one individual, but everyone across the team to be using AI and getting some level of fluency to do more with the time that they have. How are you thinking about the responsibilities and ownership of AI to the individual who's joined versus the rest of the team? Yeah, so it's something that's been at forefront of mind and much conversation, but I think what's really important is that this is not just an isolated AI initiative that the technical experts deal with, or this individual who leads on HR technology. The AI and any organisation, as we know, is going to be so relevant for every single colleague in the business, and that's where I think is part of our development programmes for colleagues. We need to include everybody, so it's no longer this small proportion of people maybe going through a particular development journey. AI is something that we're very much looking at that as a collective. We have people with them. level of experience and we have subject matter experts, but how do they bring everybody else to a level of confidence in terms of using AI in the business to enhance whatever it may be that they're doing in their specific role. So this individual is actually also helping you to drive their adoption through the right to the organization, not just in NHR. So they will be, but again our chief technology officer very much will be leading in partnership with HR around what do we do across the organization to support every single colleague. Amazing, and how are you finding the update from your team when it comes to AI whether that's in your HR systems or whether that's a generalized to all like. I actually think people have been really quite excited about it and I think there's a real mindset shift there in terms of switching from how things have been done for some people for many years. We've got a few generations within the organization, which is fantastic because we all support each other and I think everybody I would say as a whole is very enthusiastic about it. I think the important thing for us to always remember when we are exploding it is to also think about what are the opportunities that this is creating for us to allow us to get exposure or experience. Add more value in other areas so it's important not to lose sight of that and I think through continually reminding people of that opportunity and at least people are really positive mindset when it comes to embracing the AI so as a whole I would say people have been really quite excited about it. That's really great to hear and you're obviously a change, I was pro. What did that journey look like within your team to get them on board, get them excited and get them adopting AI. So I think it's worth saying that we're, although I say people are excited about it, we're still on a journey with this because it's going to be constant and it will always be the pace that things are changing. We'll just continue so I don't know that we suddenly reach a point where it's yeah everybody's all on board and comfortable. I think we'll be continually learning with it, you know for a long time to come or that will become the norm that we just need to continually move and progress particularly within my area of the business. I think it's just about being open and transparent with people it's about including and involving people so I've only been with the organisation for just over a couple of years but very much encouraged and open and honest environment whereby keeping people informed is to what the pathway is ahead for us. And giving people access to things, whether it be trials pilots, you know we've had various things that are directed of information and security has been heavily involved in rolling out different pilots to ensure that we allow people exposure to different options and they feel part of something and I think when they feel part of something and they've the opportunity to share their experiences, their feedback. Then you've got people much more on board from an early stage of adoption. Yeah, yeah I'd love to get into the folks listening in what are some of the practical steps along that journey that you took for example we see folks do other thumbs or they run very prescriptive pilots of hey we're going to compare these two particular tools for three weeks each and see how it goes. Anything you might want to share with listeners of the steps that they can pick. Yeah sure so we in one area of the business absolutely typically use hackathons it's not something in my area of the business that that we've used. But we have been doing quite a number of what we call rapid improvement events which is something that I've used in a past life and as part of that it's been working with the team in very short sharp workshop environments. To establish where the greatest opportunity is for us to use AI and understand what that could look like and the value add whether that be for customers whether that be for internal colleagues processes etc. What are the opportunities there so the rapid improvement events is something that I'm a great believe it in and just getting everybody into to one room we have done it using meadow boards as well I'm a great fan of those but workshoping and just getting everybody's thoughts and ideas as to how best we actually embrace this within the organization I think is really really important. Nice and I want to dig into a little bit more of the rapid improvement events because often there's a there's a real reaction to say hey let's add AI to something but it sounds like what you're doing is actually before even AI comes into it looking at the process itself and probably mapping it out and then saying does it even make sense today what was some of the activity you said you were doing at those rapid improvement events before you were thinking of adding it on top. I think I'll hang out the what I would call a customer value stream and when I talk about customer in the context of my area of the business the customer is typically an internal colleague that we are providing us a service to we're supporting so we would map out what is that value stream and understand what the sort of critical value stream is and then we would look at what is the reality of what we actually do and when we look at the reality of what we actually do. What you typically find is that there have been build on improvements etc and you then you know you can end up I'm not saying we did but you can end up with quite a lengthy process in place that actually the end receive our our colleagues may not be receiving as quick or effective a service as they could be if we just stuck to the real value add activities. That process mapping taking feedback as well and reviewing the feedback that we received to understand what do people really want from us as a division in the business what is the service that is going to enable support and help them most effectively and are we actually spending our time and energy in the right spaces. Yeah. How did you go about even choosing the use cases to start with and how did you kind of prioritize where to where to invest AI because it sounds like quite a daunting task is higher to retire journey that's a lot of places that we can support our customers. Yeah. How do you know where to start well we've been doing quite a bit of work just looking at all of the processes that we have so we have a number of use cases that exist in terms of the colleague journey within the organization. So we're very clear on what all of those use cases are also using surveys is another route to understanding what exactly to colleagues what support do they require and data has been a huge thing for us as well. So just looking at data whether it be those surveys looking at the inquiries that we actually receive in from colleagues across the business and just taking on board any feedback that we have so there's a number of sources of data I would say that have been really important for us to then determine where is the most effective area for us to put out energy and attention to. Nice and I think at the beginning of the call you were mentioning that you're moving to a model where you're providing more autonomy and self service to colleagues and it sounds like from what you're saying here is that that's probably one of the areas that was right for adding AI. So I'm curious to hear where were the places that you're starting to go are you already at a AI was that one of those. Yeah so so we're very much evolving this at the moment we're not an end finish state at this point in time but the the areas that we are looking to is where there are quick answers for people so you know people may just be looking to get access to quick information they might want to double check something. It may be a leader that's looking for information around a process and a lot of that factual information that we could point people to really quickly rather than them actually be adding to a mailbox for example we could actually be pointing people to really clear concise information that allows them just to carry on and keep things moving rather than having to wait for. For somebody to respond to them nice and you mentioned that it's it's a bit of a journey and this is something that is going to continue to iterate especially as AI itself involves that feels like there's a new model update every week from. The foundation of the knowledge research labs based on where you are in the journey now are you at a position to say hey we've done this work and this is the ROI that we see from AI or we more in the kind of the experimentation phase where we're going to look at ROI maybe in 2027. Again just to be really clear that when I'm talking I'm talking specifically about my area of the business what is it off the way business so absolutely of course AI you know plays a really really important feature for us internally and for our products but in terms of my area I think we absolutely are looking at that as part of you know the business planning I'm always looking at making sure that. actually, what's the right thing to do here? And if we are to implement something, again, is it adding value and what's the opportunity it gives us back for the team to add the value in other ways that AI is maybe saving them some time and energy in certain parts? Yeah, it feels like the narrative has shifted correctly so from we're going to layer on AI and then we're going to let a bunch of people. That hasn't turned out to be true, thankfully. I think a lot of the roles it seems that have been impacted, perhaps, they weren't scuffed correctly in the right place and more administrative, whereas now it feels like the way you're thinking about it is perhaps how can we unlock more capacity for people to do some of the work that they'd sign up during the first place? Are you starting to see that way out already in terms of freeing up people's time, or are we a little bit early in the journey to really see that impact in your team? I think we're a little bit early, but I can see it on the horizon. It would be my way to describe it, and certainly the conversations that I have with members of my team, the opportunity to operate at that much more strategic level. For those, for example, people partners, verses getting caught up in people administration, and I think that's the bit that people get excited about, and I think the question you asked earlier on around getting people on board is actually, it's the opportunity to create an aim to be doing some of the activities that they really want to get to, but they have to deal, the admin has become a priority, because we need to have people on board, in the business, we need to deal with performance management, etc. But actually, there's a lot of that that can be taken care of with leaders supported with AI across the business, and then the people partners can focus on some of the really strategic activities that will excite them and motivate them. Yeah, we're finally getting back to work that all the humans can do, and the work that other humans should be doing, which is an amazing time and a great opportunity, I think, to finish our teams. And with that, though, comes the question that, hey, we often used to hire people doing the administrative work, because that was kind of the way we allowed them to cut their teeth, and get them to become subject as a expert by being in the weeds. Now, certainly, we have AI, and AI can do a lot of the administrative work. How are you thinking about an HR team's shape in, let's say, 18 months? Are we still going to be hiring juniors, and if so, what does that look like? Yeah, I think we've got an intern at the moment from the university's partner with, and we've also got varying degrees of experience within the team. And I think, in order to reach the stage of supporting the strategic HR initiatives, there are some basics that people need to understand, your HR 101. So I think it's really, really important. I think what made effort is how they get that experience with AI, and actually, I think it's still important to do research, understand what's happening in the market, all the legalities, employment, law, etc. All of these things still remain absolutely critical for an individual, understand. It may be then that we have people who, as the subject matter experts, are actually informing the AI, checking the validity of it, rather than necessarily being the ones that are holding those types of conversations. So I definitely think there can be a change in dynamic in terms of that people administration side of things, you've been more informing the AI, rather than informing many different individuals, if that makes sense. Yeah, and it kind of brings to mind another question which often comes up, which is that, okay, so now we've got perhaps different agents who are reporting into human beings, and there's kind of this debate that comes up, perhaps a little bit if it's usually off. Do we think agents will ever have a place on the org chart? How do you see that play out three years, five years time? Yeah, this is a personal view, I think they will. It's something we have spoken about, but we're not at a stage of, you know, adding said agent with their name on the org chart, but I definitely think that if you're looking at organizational design and then looking at operating models in particular, I think agents absolutely will have a part to play in that operating model, and if you don't include them, you'll then have a gap. Yeah, yeah, very true. Yeah, I've also heard on the flip side that if we start adding agents onto our org chart, they're not really mature enough to fully replace the entirety of the role of the human being. They're more task based, and therefore by putting them on an org chart, we're kind of saying that you're effectively equal to a human being. We'll be able to do the same because you can be. How do you kind of think about balancing that or maybe communicating to the team that actually is not? Yeah, so I think that's where I'm specifically mentioning sort of operating model rather than the organizational chart, because I think in an operating model, you will have handoffs as part of a process, and I think I could envisage that we would have a handoff from trace to an agent to cheat, for example, I would see it more as part of the operating model and the process side of things. And again, these are just my views when I think about it. I guess the nervousness that I have from a change management, risk management perspective is that it is an agent, there are risks that come with that, so that's really important for any organisation. And we also need to protect the humans in terms of what those processes are, what the interactions are with the agents, what the parameters are in terms of working with them. So there's a huge risk management piece. And when we're talking about now having humans manage agents, we're kind of asking them to do a more work on top of their existing work, and they have to now learn a new dimension of what that didn't exist before, because it isn't the same as managing a human being. When you are now, let's say hiring people, or you're looking to promote people, is there an aspect of AI fluency in there that at the bare minimum you'd expect them to have, or is it more about having the fundamentals of autonomy, ownership, the curiosity, and then you feel they can pick up the AI as part of the job? I think there's a combination, just by the nature of how AI is evolving in the presence it's having in all organisations and all aspects of life, really. I think that there will be a combination, particularly as time goes on, you know, absolutely if we're recruiting you would be looking for people with that AI fluency. I think at the stage that we are at the moment, and then we have people in probably most organisations who need to be taken on that development journey, and they need to be given access to the tools, but they need to be given the training, the development, a safe environment to practice, and ultimately become confident that it does then become the norm, and the type of environment and culture that organisations have with AI as part of that. But I do still think that there are people in business who absolutely need to be provided with that support to build up the confidence in the first instance. Yeah, and we were kind of touching on earlier on about how change management is such a big part of that, and you started your journey in HR through the learning route. How much of HR's responsibility do you think is to provide that learning versus, let's say, the department versus the tech team that's an individual to be able to get those people up to scratch? Yeah, so interestingly, if you think about our organisations specifically, so we're a software company, so we are very fortunate that we have got people in our business who know all things AI, very, very talented subject matter experts. So we're, of course, going to pull on those expertise that we have within the business. I think every business will have different dynamics, but we absolutely will pull on that experience that's already in our business, and we're very fortunate to have that. I think more broadly, I think HR continues to be an enabler. We have drop-in sessions, so there's a number of different routes to developing, and as I said at the very beginning, I actually think it's down to individuals that if we want to all do well in our roles, meet expectations of what's happening in the world, then I think we owe it to ourselves, but then line managers and leaders absolutely create an environment where it's safe for people to learn, that people are comfortable learning, and changing, you know, comfort. with learning and the change that comes with that as well. So I wouldn't say it's just down to to the people function at all but definitely there is an enable in support and working in partnership with key areas across the business. As I you talked about this, it doesn't sound on the surface too different from other transformation journeys but in practice it fuels a little different this time with AI. Perhaps it's the pace of change. Do you see this? You've done a lot of transformation by the sense of things and throughout your entire career in an outside of HR. How do you see AI as a different beast if at all compared to other changes within a business? Yeah, I think often with changes and certainly in my own experience in my career when I've been leading change, the you often start off with your you know this is where we currently are and this is what our goal is and you then plan accordingly and provide the relevant support, communications etc and then I just don't think we have that end point anymore. I think it is about people becoming confident that we don't have all the answers right now. We don't know how it's going to end up. Is it going to end up or will it just keep going? I think it'll just keep going. There's an element of uncertainty and I think we're not just reaching an end point. AI will continue to evolve and we will all continue to learn and there will be those who are the subject matter experts that will lead to the rest of us but we can't say on this date this will be implemented and this is it for the foreseeable because we just don't know. Yeah, it's it's a real unknown unknown. I think actually he did exist three and a half years ago or something like that to find things even further out and that seems like craziness right now. It is and it just I mean there's not a day goes by now probably that I'm not amazed by something that is possible which is baffling really when you think about it you know the the pace at which AI is evolve and it's just absolutely baffling. Yeah, how do you personally keep up with the pace change when it comes to AI? Well it helps that my partner's a CT also he's constantly exploring what's going on so he's he's regularly updating me and just through curiosity. I do enjoy learning that's just part of who I am so very much curiosity. I mean I am obsessed about interior design out with my day job. I'm constantly using chat GPT to tell me how to redesign rooms in the house. I've got a 16 year old whose continuous you know exploring things. I'm just constantly looking read down learning I would say there's not one one particular route but it is just there it's everywhere isn't it? So yeah it really is everywhere and it seems like a lot of the tools that we use within HR there's also some kind of agent or or generative AI layer that's being added on top and there's also obviously the the the corporate engineering or IC led transformation that's taking place using some of the more foundational bottles of horizontal tools. What are some of the AI that you're using internally within HR within the tools or are you finding there's actually not that many good alternatives and really it's firstly about using those kind of generative foundational or horizontal models first. Yeah so I think it's just a bit understanding what's out there and as you see the more general getting everybody to a place where they're comfortable and confident using those and again that's very specifically to my area of the business and then in parallel to that there is that sort of organizational wide strategy that our CTO and others continue to explore and ensure that we're top of our game and you know ahead of the curve in terms of understanding what that is available to us. Yeah and I'm guessing there's probably a lot of vendors that's probably existing HR systems that you use that are saying how you use these particular things and there's probably also a push internally to say well why don't you experiment why don't we try and understand this why don't we build things and where do you specifically for HR stand on the kind of build versus buy you were talking about risk earlier on and we found risk management as a there's a pretty hot topic and reasons why some people choose to buy where do you stand on that. So from an HR perspective what in an HR system but what we are now very fortunate to have is the group leader of HR technology who has the understanding of the system and who has the capability to build on that. So I think that's what's been really beneficial for us is that we've actually got somebody with the capabilities and again being a software company we've got so many experienced colleagues in the business when it comes to AI. So I think that's where we're probably fortunate that we've got the skill sets in house so why wouldn't you. Exactly why wouldn't you. But I do think it's a combination of things and we absolutely do you know attend conferences webinars work with partners etc who are continuing to research and develop so we're always exploring what's next. Yeah and on that what's next topic where do you see the next phase of of AI within HR within by docs it sounds like you're kind of starting with the deflecting the repetitive questions what's what's coming next for you. I think it will be continuing to provide autonomy to colleagues across the business so that people feel informed and that they've got access to all of the right information so I think that will continue and I think the other thing is back to the point about the unknown is you know what is the art of the possible and I think that's you know really important for us to continue to explore and understand and the other thing is you know we're talking specifically about HR but as an area of the business that actually provides services to colleagues elsewhere there's an element of that will be driven by what's happening elsewhere in the business and what support they actually require so if we are an enabling function and again just about the HR team within my area what is it that the business actually require from us and how do we set them up for success there will be other tools out there that we are not using at the moment and it might be that that's something that going forward we can be exploring but I think it's really important for us to work alongside other areas of the business and understand well what what aspects of AI are they using and what does that mean for their needs have their needs shifted in terms of the colleagues in the business and how do we best serve that and support that that's yes so true because employees aren't thinking about HR and silo they're thinking about the experiences of the whole so that's that's really great to hear Chris and before we wrap up are there any final thoughts that you want to leave someone who's lifting to this who might be in the middle of process transformation and maybe they're in the middle of experimenting with them using AI I would encourage anybody to think positively that there is always opportunity people typically get nervous when there is any form of change and I think by embracing it and thinking positively it allows you to actually have a clearer mind to explore you know what is the art of the possible and what's the real value that could come as a result of us embracing this well that's great thank you so much for joining us on the work on podcast and everyone listening We will catch you on the next one. Thanks. Take care.