Making Bear Hunt - Mission Debrief

Hello and welcome to this debrief episode of Bear Hunt, I'm Gordon Carrera and I'm the co-host of the rest is classified and I've infiltrated this brilliant audio drama mini-series to speak to the people behind the show. So joining me is Goldhanger co-founder Tony Paster, who's the executive producer of Bear Hunt. We have David Allen, who is the technical producer, the military man, whose expertise underpins so much of what's great about the show and also with me are the Goldhanger drama team, the writer of Bear Hunt, Joel Emory and the director Adam Jarrow. Welcome to all of you, thanks for being here. Thank you. Thank you. Tony, let's start with you. Where did the idea for Bear Hunt come from? How did you come up with it? Yeah, it's a funny one, Miss Gordon. What happened was I met Dave in Arnhem, which you know, as the founder of Erdogan, and we have ways of making you talk, our second world podcast, you know, I'm sort of duty bound to turn up in Arnhem every year or two. Dave, who is a serving member of the parachute regiment, was there on official duty, he actually jumped that day and landed on Ginkgole Heath, I think it was. We met up, he's a big fan of our shows, we got chatting, six months later we were going for a dog walk together, both of our dogs in Dorset, and I said to him, as you do, if we had to, could we get rid of an overseas leader that we were particularly unhappy with? And Dave said to me, one thing, he said, do I need to get the assassin home? And in that moment, I stopped and thought, wow, that's a fabulous kickoff point, a starting by a leap-off point for a whole dramatic idea. One life, just one, one life to pay for many. Hey, just a feasibility study, just a game. Consider the strategic partnerships risk. Once again, we are still reading the rules. Are we going to play or not? The assassin, do we need to get him home? And also, when he said to me, if I don't have to get him back, it's relatively straightforward. If I need to get him back to South Wales, it's much trickier. It's not every day you get asked to assassinate a leader, I'm just putting that one out there. It's not your normal Saturday night walk from the pub. If you want your assassin back, you add an extra layer of complexity, because getting in and killing someone is easy, because they're not expecting you. Most assassination attempts through history succeed, but the vast majority of assassins don't get away with the end of it. They're always tackled by security guards, shot by a sniper, they never get away with it in the end. But that adds the not just layer of complexity, but a huge layer of complexity afterwards, because now the whole world is looking for you. So it's obviously something you know a little bit about. Am I allowed to ask you a bit about how you know so much about it, David, or is it deeply classified? No, I'm just a student of history. All right. It had to be this. Sentries ago, we would have sent an armada. It would have been at night, an exemplar, a champion, a paladin of the crown, put a Brit on the ground, and the job will be done. But your super-sanctions, of course, are they armed and ready for launch? Tony, you have a conversation with Dave about this, and then you think, oh, make a drama about that. Is that what happens? Yeah. I mean, the next thing that happened really was that we spent the entire weekend working out all of the nuances of a literal plot, if it was to happen. For example, Dave said to me, the easiest way to do this would be to get a dissident group from the nation in question, if it was in China or Argentina or whatever it was. You'd get a local group, if it was in Russia, you might talk to the Chechens or you'd find somebody local to do it. I said, well, what happens if we really want to own this? If it's a British person who's going to do this? And I asked him the next bizarre question I asked him was, would you have somebody in mind to do it? And Dave said to me, if you asked most of British Special Forces in this country, they'd all name the same fella. And from there, I mean, it was a drama in the making at that point. Oh, well, that's Dave, I've got to ask you. So how far is Duffy based on a real person? How far can you say? No. To be fair, the main guy, he would be even without the whole secrecy, he'd be extremely embarrassed if I pointed him when you're the best soldier I know, he'd be very embarrassed to hear that. He's a mix of three people. In terms of his mindsets, his skills and how he acts. He's a malgamesh of three people. Sounds like people I'd like to meet. There's a fabulous moment, relatively early on in which Duffy is introduced. He's in Hawaii training Americans in jungle fighting. That is based entirely on one of the three men that Dave has alluded to. One of them literally does do that for the Americans. We are the, I'm now informed, we are the jungle fighting experts on the planet. We've maintained the muscle for many decades, and when people need to learn how to do it, there is a chap in Britain who is sent overseas. We charge a very healthy favourite, and he goes out there and he teaches the course. Fuck! Oh! Fuck! Damn it! Ah! He's coming fire! Like we've seen that, Harris! God! Fuck! You're not hurt, you're fucking dead! Headshot! He's fucking dead to the chase, this bell in front, this one! Williams. Congrats Williams. You are got shoulder, I got arm, I got right leg, you're crawling your way back to Mrs. Williams. Why do we take this fucking pass? It heads east, we reach Charlie. No you wouldn't. With all due respect, Charlie is exactly 1.2 miles. With all due respect, I created this path this morning to see if there were anyone stupid enough to pack into a fucking street lane and kindly fucking conger the way into my rounds. We recognise the path of least resistance. The resistance was a 556 in your brainstem sergeant. Yeah. So, earlier on the ridge, I think we, we double back. No, no, no, no. We don't replay. It's in call of duty, index. So Joel and Adam, let's come to you a bit, so the idea comes to you and you're obviously, you know, you're the drama experts, we've got to hang out with Sherlock and Cohen, and that show. But this is a bit different, isn't it? So, how does the idea turn into a story? Sherlock and Cohen came around a similar way, which was we're actually having a meeting about something else, and then Tony goes, oh, by the way. And he told me kind of what we've just heard there, but he used the phrase, and I'm sorry because Dave hates his phrase, he used the phrase Britain's best soldier, and I understand why Dave hates it. It's a bit like saying Britain's best scientist, it's sort of scientist of what, the soldier of what? And I just couldn't get that, I couldn't get that out of my head, Britain's best soldier. So I was interested on that front and then Tony, Dave and myself met for a day, sort of booked out a remote office, and you know, with a, with a big piece of paper and a marker, we kind of worked out how you would do it technically. But just say, how many brits are there all the way through? One American out of your rich. There was seven of us, six brits of one American. Are you a job? Are you seeing your man? No, two. But this knife isn't a senior bloke, he's a full school at the time. But you're, you're senior enough? Yeah, I'm an, I'm an insier, so I can't just, it, it's the, so when you see the, you're being dicked by the two fellas. Yeah. So far away, I like 270. 270 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So to a 40-power, shouldn't Ben just like, right? You have a conversation, right? Yeah, we're talking to him. But he's got some kind of receipt. So he's talking. So he's basically shooting all of it. So he's got a, an Afghan interpreter with him, with a radio tube in, the right frequency. He's listening. So he's got a little handheld radio with the fucking earpiece in. And so he's listening to what it's had about the same, because we can listen to that talking about that. So we're even at the front of the tabulation. So Joel, myself and Dave, we as, as Joel said, we took a, like, a workspace room with like white paper all around the walls and we said, we're going to map out how this is going to work. And we, I have had more fun in that day than I can remember in a long time, right? So basically, we would say, right, okay, so we're going to do this. Can we do it in Russia? Dave and media says we can't live in Russia, it's like you. you can't get out of Russia. You can get into Russia, you can probably get close to him. By the way, there are six versions of him. There's six versions. How do you even know it's the right one? And that's how we evolved the idea of it having to happen in a second state where we could be absolutely sure that the main man would be there, not a body double. And that's how the whole idea of China came out. But then we got into the most ridiculous conversation about how you do it. And Dave said, listen, you know, you can't do it. You can't do it with a bomb in the row. You can't do it with IED. The car is in. And then he would give us incredible technical detail of why the car used by the man in question is impregnable. And we came back with, obviously, this is fiction. It is a drama. Joel and I were dead keen that it would have a kind of call back to the, you know, to the day of the jackal. We wanted the idea of a single shot taken by a super, super expert sharpshooter. And Dave would then send us pictures, like, kids, you know, if I, if he was me said, I'd be doing it at this place in the airport, you've got to get round the air traffic control building. Oh, but if we were, like, with Joel and I would have a private conversation going, Jesus, you could sort of do this. It's slightly terrifying, isn't it? But we had the most brilliant development I can remember on any show ever. (air whooshing) - You know, how do you keep these? - Yeah. - Anyway. - Fight. (air whooshing) - Well, we've got the security forces around the room on the goal. (laughing) - It's funny. I remember being a consultant on a TV drama killing Eve where I had to come up with lots of ways to kill people. And I remember being really worried that the document would get out and people would be like, oh, that's it. Maybe I'll try that one. And how do you manage to balance, you know, the desire for authenticity with telling a good story? I mean, it's, you know, it's a balance, isn't it? You've occasionally got to go, that's too much detail or something like that, how does it work? - Usually when Joel and I get together and, you know, come up with a storyline or even an idea for a story, we always go, yeah, but we can use a bit of artistic license there. We can use a bit of artistic license there. What the information that we got from Dave was just every single bit was mind-blowing. But the fact that we had Dave, there's no need to kind of go too far and we kept it quite authentic. I think also the charm of it is that everybody, everybody in the cast feels real. I think there's way more heart to this than you might think if you've just kind of listened to a trailer or you've just thought, okay, what's the synopsis? I think there's a lot of heart to this show. - But I think what's funny is we kind of, we kind of realized that a lot of the characters had a bit of an edge to them and we kind of, we wanted to explore them a bit more. Pilgrims are a really good example. - He's my favourite. - I have to say, maybe it's because I'm the spy man, but Pilgrims are my favourite. - I mean, it's one of those characters, like he's sort of an outsider who's been an insider. He is the sort of crack pot that's got to have the balls to really come up with such a thing. This must never, ever get back to this country. It would be the darkest shadow on its 1,500 year history. - But should it be accomplished a new dawn for a new world, just this single action, a moonshot, a haymaker from a middle power, delivered in the heart of a superpower? - That's an absolute joy casting for any show. We have been working on Sherlock and Co for over three years now. Our little black book is no longer little of performers that we know and that we trust Luke Jastel, who plays Pilgrim Moore. I mean, what gravitate he brought to the role? We recorded together and I knew that people, from reading the script, I knew that people were going to miss Pilgrim. And then after I recorded with Luke, I thought, "My God, they're really gonna miss him." 'Cause what a character he was. And I think there were a few people who, from the off, we decided that we wanted them for this character, Thomas Mitchell, who plays Ike's turn away. He's one of our most trusted voice actors. And Naomi Miller is as Mel, absolutely hit it out the park. - Mel. - Oh, get off me. What did you do? - Just listen to me for a second. - What the fuck did you do? Is Tiberius the Russian President? - Before you even-- - Is it the fucking Russian President? Alex? - Could be. Who knows? - Who knows? Who fucking knows? - Plausable deniability. The only thing that is plausible here is World War III. - Hold on a second. Just get the fuck away from me. - Something had to be done. - Oh, something had to be done. - It had to. - Says a man with no children. Says a man who knew he was no skin in the game anymore. - 350 people were skin in the game, Mel. Eloise was-- - Just to turn her daughter to fucking ashes as well. And for a penny. And for a fucking pound. Freddie Trenholm had a hell of a job because he had to play basically two versions of the same character, really, with Charlie Higgs and Sean Wade. I thought that was a hell of an achievement on his part. So yeah, casting's always a pleasure. - Fuck me, man. Pissing your pants in Brecken. Now we've got piss coming out your eyes, ain't we? You need to wear a fucking bag or something, 'cause it's fucking pouring out of you, isn't it, eh, mate? Shall I ram a catheter up there and hang you by it? Little dangle by you dingle, 14, eight, till you-- - What the fuck do you think you're talking to? - Well, the interesting thing about Addy as a keyway, Miriam Bran, is it's what you'd call in football with Suicide Pass, which is basically we spend three episodes building up characters that you get attached to. And then we just went, here's the baddies now. And Michael Lyall, Michael Lyall and Lauren Ingram, who Adam, I said, who do you think should play Addy? And who do you think, play Miriam? He just said it's got to be Michael and Lauren, 'cause they will just nail this. And they did. And there's something sort of happens around episode five or six, where you start to think, oh no, I'm now invested in the people that I really didn't like when I first met them. So yeah, it's that nice kind of like handing over of the battle, and I think is, yeah, not something we get to do in our normal show, so to do it here was really good, really fun. - There is no peace still if they ain't a hundred percent Abbey. And fucking, what's he gonna brag to the Russian people about with fucking Turkey? - So we're bragging rights. Why do I feel alone? Why, when I talk to the president, to the Europeans, do I feel totally and utterly alone? - 'Cause we're charting our own cause. - We are sailing into the Black Sea, Addy. Alone. - Prime Minister, you've got vision, you've got plan, you can't look back, just 'cause there's rough seas ahead. You've got to stay focused. - Yeah. - Males at the hotel. - Cool. Want me to join? - No. No thanks. - Yeah, and the back story is a really well developed in it. You really notice that for lots of the characters. Also, I mean, Joel, you've got prime ministers in there as well, and politics. It's, I mean, again, there's always that balance between how close are they to real politicians and how different are they? And people always want to know, oh, is that Kistarm or is that someone else? Is that in your mind a little bit when you're writing? - I mean, front of my mind is, how can I impress your listeners? Alessandro and Rory's listeners, until an extent Tom and Dominic's listeners. That was front of my mind as sort of, the people listened to this, know the furniture of number 10 quite well. When we were in that meeting in Bristol, the shorts hand we used were obviously the real people. So we start there as bare bones. But just the second you start writing something just in terms of sort of following your gut with a certain character, they shape a different way. Miriam, when we were first developing this, had the approval rating of probably what Farage had. However, we sort of felt, well, I sort of felt that Farage is sort of, he has a kind of like Larry Avatar that he's kind of developed, that I don't think he's that dangerous, 'cause I don't think it's that palatable electorally, whereas like Miriam, there's something about that kind of like Land Rover Defender, Barber Jacket, stiff up a lip woman that is, I thought really, really interesting to have, you know, Farage is sort of numbers behind her. So yeah, we definitely sort of started with real people, but then like Adam says, we kind of shape them into what we wanted, realism that we wanted from it. But yeah it was it was an interesting Exercise in that area, yeah, absolutely and Donald Perry you play stuffy as well I mean what a you know if you're if you're gonna have a leading man in the show then it is Duffy and my god Don't you do well? I think you'd have feared better with a fucking RPG Sean what to take a chance of with that Sorry, didn't they fucking realize power off? Duffy come on. I think you're the fucking claymos, hmm What were you doing building fucking sandcastles or some in Sean? Because you've seen pretty fucking thrilled to bring up a canny's vest but the RPG and that tower in inferno you wanted to camp out in there 9 Triple stacked I star. It was a truck V.I Response time would have been 15 seconds That's what they fucking said did they after the fucking fact Where where you're fucking Claymoors, you don't make decisions Sean and that's fucking fine fine, so don't fucking backseat drive me Fuck are always changed me. It's 2010 pal. Do your fucking homework listen to my fucking plan Because I make decisions and you don't and that's why I decide what Sean Wade does out there get it You're fucking an arachduff Go get your fucking readers on then and get out my fucking face my way you would have been fine Your way was either the rocket or getting closed down by a fucking jihaddy when there was perfectly good claymoors sat there Just before we recorded with Donald who played Duffy. I spoke to Tony on the phone I said I'm just jumping into recording with Donald and and Tony said Like let's make sure you want to go for a beer with Duffy. I said, okay That's exactly what we'll do and he does he does feel like that he feels sort of Like we're aware of his sort of technical ability, but he is likable and he's and he's he's intelligent as well I think we're really proud of how he got shaped in the end What I really wanted Gordon was that this drama should be challenging for the audience They're one of the beauties of the wire the great HBO Series the wire which I adore is that it doesn't make any allowances for its audience It's sort of says keep up if you can we're gonna speak in our own language our own language our our lingua franca Our own street talk and we're not gonna make it easy for you But if you can get into this language and translate it you'll become adoring of the plot the characters the the the rhythms of speech And I wanted I mean, I don't want to make a ridiculous claim But I wanted a little bit of that feeling of The audience working hard to understand what's going on in the conversations not having it dumbed down Not having it simply explained to them and the consequence of that hard work meaning that they'd enjoy it all the more When they cracked the code of how these guys spoke to each other. Yeah The dialogue is terrific. What do you think of it Dave? Yeah, well the dialogue Because I was the thing that the question Joel would ask most is everyone's a while ago Dave How would this person say this thing to this person or? Give me less of acronyms or how would this work and it would just be cake and Or even like the plan I would sense the Joel which Duffy then that the trick shot so you then explains to to rob away in some all That's basically word for word how I send the voice now. I would proceed. I would go out there You know fuck fucker of a shot. We even bullets between building and this at the other. He's like perfect. It's just fucker of a shot Just shy of a male South side of runway From algae marsh water Thread the bullet between a control tower and the corner of a hanger So that the the dialogue is as realistic as I can make it without being too offensive When you say without being too offensive. Can I just point out that we absolutely insisted in using one of Dave's own acronyms my favorite acronym of all time Dave tell us which one my favorite acronym is Yeah, so it's so it's the bit where um, you know, I think this episode really goes We don't want to go fish for this and rob always the voice of the audience You will obviously know this being a member of a being a member of being in the squadrons But for the honest I never heard it because always they want to go fish It's a robber's like what do you mean fish fighting in some cunts house? And and as soon as I sent that's like told him to be right right that's going I don't care how we put it in that is going in There's behavior boys. We want this spot for now, but we don't want to go fresh for it not with the locals not fish acronym for one fighting some cunts house And of course the sound design as well and the sound design is really remarkable of it as well because it's I mean, it's really interesting the way you know, it used you know You know audio flashbacks and things like that that are used used in it. I mean Talk a little bit, you know add a maybe about how how how that sound design comes is made It in something like this and how much talk? Yeah, with Sherlock and Co Um, we share the sound design. I do the majority of the sound design on on Sherlock and Co On bare hunt Joel did the sound design. He led that while I looked after Sherlock and Co But I I think it fits because for Most high octane moments in Sherlock and Co where we let ourselves get a little bit cinematic Don't forget in Sherlock the show is being edited by John Watson, you know So he's not he's not a professional sound it's a sound engineer or anywhere near But for the high octane moments as Sherlock has grown Joel steps in and does I'm thinking of like the ending of silver blaze when we did the ending of silver blaze And the ending of hound or the masquerade and Joel excels he'll hate me saying this because he's so modest But he excels at these high octane moments So of course when when he's written a script like bare hunt. I'm just like right. You've got time now We don't have to be we don't have to do this every week. We've got time To design this together and I think we went through two or three drafts Didn't we John the the notes I gave you were so boring They were just like a little bit of mic hiss there bring that person to the left a bit that person should be on this side of the room It's a strange old job that we have Gordon when we're doing audio drama when we're editing scenes And I'm like no that that that cup of coffee that was placed on the table definitely sounded Full it should be empty and just little little little silly things like that and yeah Absolutely, but John I love it. We love it. Yeah, we've got to be for the show to sound good And I think Joel did an absolutely incredible job on the sound design. Um again, Joel You're gonna hate me for saying this don't cut this Joel because you did do a marvelous job. Don't keep it in keep it in A swim In poison water Blind in a tunnel nearly 2k long Ventilation shafts every 150 meters to stop the noxious gases blowing a hole under Tianjin suburbia Then through irrigation tunnels no wider than my shoulders Leg bag diaphragmatic breathing to expand my abdomen Rather than my chest I'll need every inch I can get Then no breathing at all For those spots that compress your ribcage push your sternum into your spine One of those lungs is going to pop I just got a hope it's only one that goes You get yourself through that and the torrent takes you And boy will it take you Cutting it put sound design behind what you said then Um, yeah, it was uh, it's also got our kind of sort of staple approach which is um Does it does it feel like TV um and then having a sense of um Having a sense of kinetics about about a scene it's like I want to hear Alex Curnaway itching uncomfortably or I want to hear somebody shuffling in their seat We will often talk to the actors about you know, let's do Let's do a take where we keep some throat clearing in with some ums and ours some hesitations here in there Um, and I and I think once you that for a scene it doesn't really matter But but when you should bring that together you know each episode had roughly 10 scenes in them and once they all have that kind of like decoration to them Um, there's something about it. It kind of like really really lifts um How much how long did it take to make? I mean just wanted how long it took and how much it changed during that process over time we writing it would have been I started middle of January a finished middle of April Um, it was a lot bigger than I sort of expected it to be um and then it was edited um By the end of May by by early June and then we kind of sat with it over the summer and there are a few tweaks You know, let's give a few more lines to this character One thing that I do think is quite funny is that if you if you to look back on this and say when did they you know When did they come up with that and ultimately answer is you know, it was cooking between January and March of 2026 and Before we meet up to start talking about it Maduro's running Venezuelan by the time we've met up He's he's been in the US snatched he's been snatched for a week and then I'm a month after that by the time I'm on you know Episode three Camini's dead and This whole thing of oh, we'd oh, is it a bit far fetched this regime decapitation thing that we're doing apparently not is the answer So so allowing all that to happen for that to happen then like just like feeding those bits in I know it probably didn't do the disclaimer and that much justice at the start the show, which is this is not based on reality It was just one of those things where it was real life giving us these layers Where you know, it's it's you know, I must be difficult was an American listening to the show because you can't go Oh, our US president would never be like that. Well, evidently he would be so The midterm's the midterms. Yeah, but the midcom midterms guess right. Um, yeah, so it's just it's one of those things real real life Real life and real people gave us not just layers of complexity, but layers of sort of drama And layers of reality as well a lot of what we were doing in the show has Happened in the real world Like you know bringing down bringing down the aircraft the defense secretary's plane got that done in exactly the same way Two months earlier like what when when something is it was something anything that happens in bare hands Isn't like oh, we've made this thing up. It's literally a it's terrifyingly real in that way of you could listen to it and go I'm gonna fuck it second. I've just watched that happen on YouTube Yeah, and I think that's what often people don't think about and what you often don't get in a lot of you know Films or TV triggers is just like you know, no one's thinking through the politics and the the consequences the international relations and all the you know the follow-throughs of it and what what's great about their hand is all of that is kind of Integrated together the thinking about it and again it makes it feel more real I think for that reason Yeah, I mean what we wanted we wanted for example Gordon on that we wanted it to be ambiguous as to who the source of this Hit was we did we wanted it to be so that we could nod and wink as a as a nation that maybe we were behind it But we didn't want it to be out there that the British had done this We wanted it to be so that the assassin gets away in part so that we can cover our tracks and people might go Have they really done this and we could always say well, you know that that we're here in the same room as you but we're unable to Possibly come in yeah, exactly. Yeah They're saying in the well the covert circles that the hit job wasn't Ukraine War China wasn't any of the other Russian territories It was a Brit A Brit Rumors of that. Yeah If you heard anything in that area I mean, I totally understand if you haven't I've got to add I have actually yes What I have heard that rumor Miriam, we've looked into it if it's true. It would seem he is a frightfully talented individual an exemplar of the killing trade brilliant ruthless Wouldn't you say Sure a harrowing notion for our adversaries. I'm sure But a comforting thought for us That out there there is such a rogue individual protecting Britain's interest Punishing those that disparage us and Our esteemed friends of course of course Who would need a nuclear deterrent when you could Take out anybody Just like that Would be quite Something Probably just a rumor shall we walk the grounds So I remember I think it was Adam I saw you either we have ways or the rest is fast And it was about to come out I think was nervous. I just I'm nervous. I'm excited. I guess it's a big deal But you must be you know because it's a bit it's something you it's you know It's about your but you must be you know the reaction has been you know I mean, it's been to me up the charts. I mean, were you surprised please once? Pleased I wasn't surprised and that's I promise that's not that that doesn't come from ego hours hours pleased because This is this is original IP this is it we we don't have the the weight or sometimes the shadow that's cast over as by Sherlock Holmes and Arthur Conan Doyle it's it's it's an original story So I was very pleased that people were willing to give it a chance and give it a listen because there's there's so much out there and That I'm so pleased that we were able to do this without it being for instance James Bond or Jack Reacher or Something like that and people have stuck with it and it's just that I'll never never ever get tired of that of people you know Allowing us an hour or so a week, you know and the trust they have for for goal hangar and for goal hangar drama as well I think as well. It helps that this is unique in it's not just it's not connected to another IP, but it is unique There's not all our out there where you have a show that Prioritizes authenticity that is You know the main character so a little to everyone isn't some immortal overpower words Daoer, you know, he's not Jason Bond. He's not Jason Bond. You he can't fly a helicopter. There's no 15 languages And he's another he's a normal human being. He's got his own perks. He's got his own quirks He's incredibly flawed. He's got he's got massive PTSD from his son. That makes Duffy a more human character than someone like Jason Bond or John Matrix or you know, which you know, you know and this but there's things that's plenty of that out there where you've got these these characters who are What's the word? Did you you don't like them? They're also they make they're very very competent. What they do? But you wouldn't go for a beer for these people Let's be fair. There's a little bit of Dave in there as well, you know Dave Dave's a big reader. Dave is the one that always used to say to me It's the reading. It's the pamphlets. It's being on top of the detail It's it's it's the education. It's knowing your it's knowing your weaponry knowing your terrain understanding it and we I you know you sometimes imagine about British special forces that they kind of jump jump out of a perfectly functioning aircraft and land with a machine Good in their in their grasp which which Dave does do for a living to be fair, but you know, it's also there's also this breadth Intelligence and smarts and savvy You know, Dave's Dave's obviously had to operate in a lot of very challenging places like Afghanistan and and Iraq and you know He's had to do go on what he would you know call a heart some minds exercise out there and do difficult challenging things You know deal with local people who were terrified by situations So we wanted some of that humanity in in Duffy as well, and you know, we learned pretty much on on on Dave's experiences The Afghan experiences for example are all based on anecdotes that Dave was able to was able to give to us I think the only thing I think the only thing of me in Duffy is the parking thing he does outside clears house And make sure the park is the right direction When that bit was played over and you was like yeah, that's that's that's you I know I was gonna ask you Dave Have you had any any you know Any feedback from other veterans or people who you know know you're involved with it or being involved in the military or things like? Yeah, so I so I because I've advertised around around the ladder work a couple of people listen to it There was one guy that read that rang me up. He'd listen to episode three. So he just finished the Hawaii stuff It's just gone on to theatre and you ran me when I know who that fucking is And I know exactly who that is it didn't it helps that he was one of the the ops team that sent the guy out to Hawaii So he was intimately involved in that particular job But yeah, a lot of people have been like But I've I've not seen anything negative about it. I've not but I've not heard too many people on about it either I'm not and it's been quite weird. I'm not actually heard anything negative about the about the whole thing either it's been Very very well received in terms of the stuff I've put in the technicality and the wording and that That was the thing I really was most scared of very so that's probably nothing of being in Duffy's share is I would rather be tortured by Chinese police than have someone come to go that was shit What size the description of a gun or something? Yeah, if I'd have got something incorrect on that on that show I'd someone heard it from work and they'd be like Dave so let me let me ask you question this so Why do you think you could do this or you assert that or just talk me through this part of it? I think that was super and professional what you did there was really crap that would kill me more than than than being hung by my ankles outside you outside Beijing or whatever. Yeah, it doesn't matter how well it charts, Joel, what matters is the day doesn't get into trouble with his mates. Basically, yeah, yeah, it's a repetition-based environment, my work. So what happens next? What's next for the team? Tony, is this giving you a chance for more drama? Oh, 100%. We want to do more drama. I mean, that was that was committed before we launched Berhont. This is merely led us to double down on that. I mean, Berhont, you know, just if I get a little moment to to brag on behalf of Joel and Adam and what they've achieved here, Berhont hasn't left the top 10 of the Apple charts for the entire 10 weeks. It's been released. And just to be clear on that, I don't mean the fiction charts. I mean, the all genre charts has been sat up there, you know, just sitting alongside the rest of politics, rest of history, and various other shows that are, you know, pretty high profile. So it's done incredibly well. It's been downloaded, we believe it's the biggest drama in the country. That's unusual when you're talking about brand new IP. It's not based on Sherlock Holmes, which is obviously, you know, one of the great beauties of making Sherlock Holmes is that it's tried and tested and it's worked in every single medium since Conan Doyle wrote it at the end of the 19th century. You know, we know it works. This was completely new territory and it's found an audience and it's maintained that audience. It's listened through rates. I'm getting a bit in the weeds here for as a podcaster. It's listened through rates are astonishing. They're the highest in the building. You know, it's high 80s percent. People get through every bit of it. That's very unusual. So yeah, we want to do more drama. I am, you know, like you heard it here first. I'm delighted to say and Joel will probably gasp, as I said, but we will be bringing bear hunt back. There'll be a second series of it next year. Did you know that, Joel? I'll just check. We will be bringing, we will be bringing Duffy back and we'll be bringing the whole premise back and what I think people will be most intrigued by will be the new environment, the new target and what we're up to with it next. I think there was always the idea of doing it again because half of the reason why you keep your assassin isn't just because you want to get away with it. It's because you want to do it again. So I always think that when they were like, "Oh, we're going to do another one." I was like, "Yeah, we were probably going to do another one anyway." You no matter how this went, we were probably going to do another one, we'll find something else, find someone else and just and keep going. Because it's done great, people want more Duffy. Why not? I better get that giant piece of paper out again. I call it the bear tapestry. Is that where you wrote down all the ideas for the policy? I've literally got a Google document and it's got like in the bit that's, for example, when he reads out the Frago, well, that Frago exists. It's a fully written set of orders, so like a British Army set of orders. That exists on my laptop. Sorry Dave, sorry Dave. That Frago scene, Luke and I recorded that Luke Jastoo Place, we recorded that on the hottest day of the year. By the end, I mean, Luke is an absolute pro goodness me. We were recording for about four hours in my home studio. Windows closed, she can't have the sound of the cars going by. No fans, onks, it'll interfere with it. We were both covered in sweat by the end. He goes, Adam, I don't understand what words are anymore. Can you just. That's fine, that's fine. Don't worry, so we just stood up and we just did it together. We just repeated after each other and that was, I think, it sounded great. So as you can't tell, that's testament to Luke. But bloody hell, it was a hot day, goodness me. Well, I'm very glad to hear there's going to be more Duffy. I'm going to put my hand up for a Pilgrim prequel. I want to go back and hear him in the in the Cold War, young Pilgrim. Sorry, I'm, you know, my slight bias. But it is a terrific, it's a really terrific achievement. I mean, I've enjoyed listening to it so much. So thank you very much for all of you for joining us here, Goldhanger Co. founder, Tony Pastor, who's the executive producer, Dave Allen, who's the military man behind the scenes. Very secretive, as well as, Joe Joel, Emory, the writer and director, Adam Jarrell. Thank you all very much for joining us for here for this little Goldhanger behind the curtain peak into the world about. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [BLANK_AUDIO]