Make-or-Break NFL QBs, a CFB Preview, and the WNBA Renaissance With Todd McShay and Diana Taurasi

The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by the Ringer podcast network where I put up an episode of the rewatchables yesterday. We did aliens. It finally happened after nine years, one of the most requested movies that we've ever had for the rewatchables podcast. Finally happened, aliens, one of the 10 greatest sequels of all time. So go check that one out. I did a bunch of podcasts last week, including a two over under podcast with cousins out with it. AFC did NFC. If you missed any of that, please go check it out. Got to mention the AFC podcast. I talked about how I got my daughter's boyfriend to play some, some bets for me in Massachusetts because I was in LA, did not know about the proxy rules. Yeah. There's some, there's some real rules with this stuff and, and they've ruled that they, not only are the bets going to be voided, and I learned my lesson, apparently proxy betty not allowed. I actually thought it was, but that's fine. And now my daughter has to break up with her boyfriend. That was the other thing. No, I'm kidding. They're going to stay together. But yeah, I did learn, not a lot to do that. So all those bets went out the window, all that special time I had with Hank out the window as well. The good news is I'm going to be in Boston and maybe at some point all, I'll make some more wagers down the road. So there you go. Lesson learned. Coming up on this podcast, we're going to talk football and college football with Todd McShay, because we need to have him on before the NFL season. And then Diana Tarasi, who was on the last grant land basketball, however, who was on my podcast the first year, I think, when she was playing in Russia. Yeah. First or second year, can't remember. She's back. We're going to talk WNBA. We're going to try to have a really fun women's basketball conversation where we don't hit all the stupid content guardrails that everybody hits and just talk about basketball. It's going to be fun. We're going to have a break, pro jam, and then Todd McShay. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Fandall. The NFL is here and it's the most rewarding season ever on Fandall with the all-time Fandall Rewards Club. Every eligible bet can earn you points win or lose. You still get points. With more points, the bigger the rewards you can unlock, head to Fandall.com/bss to start earning with Fandall Rewards Club. Twenty-one plus select states are 18 plus DC, Kentucky Oralmen, game problem called 1-800-Gamber call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut. All right, recording this early Tuesday afternoon, Eastern time. Todd McShay is here, college football season really kicking off this weekend, NFL, starting next week. You want to start? NFL, first to college, first. You're pick. Let's go NFL, first. Okay. I've made, I always feel like there's eight teams that can basically be realistic Super Bowl contenders. And even though sound I did the AFC and NFC over under the last week, I still didn't have my eight and I think I have six and I wanted to bounce off the other spots for you. I always have a pen and a piece of paper. I always keep on your toes. Yeah. All right. So here's what I have. Rams and Seahawks have to be in there. So that's easy. We got two. I think from the AFC, the two teams I feel the best about are the Texans and the Ravens. Texans because they have the best defensive league Ravens because of the schedule. I like Jesse Menter made all these cases last week. So I have those four. Okay. I have the Broncos, who I think people are sleeping on a little bit from a town on the roster standpoint. I think people are looking at them as making too big of a step back. I just like them more than the Chiefs. That's five Eagles because of the amount of talent. They have that six. So I have two spots left. One is for the bills or the Patriots. And I'm biased. You might be less biased than me, but give me your bills or Patriots. You can't have both. No. Now I've decided I can't have both. I think this is a zero side vibe between those two gun to head this year. I would go Buffalo. All right. Can I make the case? I always worry with the quarterback, a young quarterback coming off of the first successful season. What does it look like the next year after coordinators in the league have had a full off season to prepare, right? Now, obviously, you look at that wide receiver room compared to a year ago for Drake May. And it's like, it's not even close, right? And so that gives you a lot of hope and promise a few Patriots fan. I just think Josh Allen has the right coach, the right relationship, he feels ownership of this. I get the roster's not as good. Patriots roster top to bottom is better. I just, I can't bet against Josh Allen this year. Well, history says that's a good guy to bet on because he just wins 11 games every year. Right. I don't see the town and the defense at all. So this to me would have to be a one man show kind of season for him. And I think he's enough of a one man, but, but it, like, it won't shock me. There's one team that you're leaving off that you and I have texted about a little bit that I, I think is going to surprise some teams and I don't care how a little rest they get to my eight spot. Okay. Go ahead. One last thing on the pad, so yeah, because obviously people are, you're running into people all summer and you live in New England and people are going to ask you this stuff. What's your answer when people say what happened to Drake in the playoffs last year? He wasn't healthy and his left tackle wasn't healthy. That's my answer, too. It's almost like we colluded on answers. Yeah, I haven't talked to you about that. But there, there's no question in my mind that both guys were injured and when, and you could see the difference. And yeah, the competition elevates its first time the playoffs, I get all those things and I'm sure that they played a factor, but you're telling me that that was the Drake May that we saw all season and then he just kind of, he was limited in what he was able to do. And the offense very clearly was, did they, I mean, they kind of, they strangled it, you know, like they, they clearly were, were, were functioning with a quarterback that they knew had some more limitations than they were doing with all season long. And then, and then, I mean, listen, it was a disaster in the Super Bowl. But when you're, rookie left tackle is not healthy. It's not going to end well and Will Campbell was not healthy. I don't care what injury report said. I mean, I mentioned I had, I mean, we, we talked to the general manager and, and Wolf was like, like, there's no, like, he basically was like, he'll be healthy next year. Like, it was, it was more than a wink, you know what I mean? Like, he's our starting left tackle and, and we have no doubt about that. And, and we have all the confidence in the world. That was not the guy that played left tackle all season. And he didn't just forget how to, how to play football or in Seattle's defense is awesome. But that wasn't the product that, that we know he's going to be moving forward. Well, he had a torn MCL, he said that after the season, torn MCL as an injury that has sidelined a bunch of people. So he definitely was. No, they would drink. I don't know if there was an injury that was hiding or if he was like really, really banged up. And then there was an accumulation of hits, but he was not the same guy in those last couple games. And, you know, if this was a quarterback that was on the Patriots, I would have been like, oh, regular season Drake, but we'll see. At my last spot, Bucks, Cowboys, Lions or Bears were those one of the four that was that one of the teams you thought I was going to say to you. What was the team where it takes about chargers? Yep. Chargers. Okay, so there are chargers in there, Dallas and the chargers are the two teams that I think are going to have big years to share. I think this is the best team that Dak has had. I think he's, I've never thought he's one of the elite quarterbacks in the league. Yeah. Maybe even I had this conversation for the longest time, I was, I was a push, push back against Dak guy. And in the last club, did you have T shirts or was that just no, but I felt like I was, I was, I was on the board, yeah, but I was on the board of that club, you know, but, but I think he's figured out who he is. I know like he knows how to distribute his leadership, the physicality, like I just, I think he's, I think he's primed to have maybe the best year of his entire career. They've got the weapons that wide receiver. Their defense that looks in the last 12, it's called nine months now, approximately nine 10 months now. The turn over from that defense systematically, and you would think losing like a Parsons, but they've parlayed that into what I think is it, and I love the former spider, new, new defensive coordinator. I just, I think that defense is going to be, let's say it's middle of the pack. 15th, it's a totally different city. Situation for Dallas and I can't say I live the ESPN life for 19 years Bill Like nothing makes my stomach turn more than a Tuesday when the Cowboys have no business being in the news cycle And it's the A block of a show. Yeah, but this year I think they actually deserve some of this Attention that they're inevitably going to get so I think the chargers and the Cowboys are the two teams that are being I can't say Cowboys are being overlooked, but I don't know they're being taken as seriously as they should be from a national Perspect. I think that's fair. We did it last week. We talked about that division Especially when you look at the other two teams in the division like both of those teams might be 11 win teams The Eagles and the Cowboys. I think they have a real chance to make the soup. Oh, so that that was the team. I think I think Herbert is going to I think Herbert's gonna shred this leak and I was I also I was I was low man I had I had a love I had a Herbert might coming out of the NFL draft I was you know whether it was Rex Ryan or Kuiper like and I and I really liked Herbert I recognized the talent like it doesn't take super scout to figure out this guy's supremely gifted But what but he's never won in my argument was like winners win and there's something about them There's an it factor. There's like I remember going into a meeting in Oregon, Eugene We're up there for like one of those coaches meetings to meet with it was crystal ball and then and then the quarterback normally comes in They command the room, right? He walks in in the offensive line man He brings in with him and he kind of sits behind the offensive line, and I'm like, I don't This isn't a vibe that I'm I love it and it kind of explained some of the you know some of the questions I had about him, but I've seen him grow in mature I think Harbaugh has done wonders for him in terms of his like confidence and above all I just like the weapons they have Now like with this offensive system just watching a couple plays during this preseason Of Mike McDaniel and what what that system is going to do opening receivers up I think it's going I think they're going to put up massive numbers this year offense Right now. He's third MVP odds on Fandall 10-1 Better than Lamar better than Drake better than Matthew Stafford only behind Allen and burrow the one thing that worries me. You know, they got the tackles back this year Right, they don't have a left tack or a right tackle last year. They're on backup some both spots. They got both guys backs later on who are awesome They sign a center. They lose them their guards are probably in the running for worst guards in the league So the middle of the line. I would say is a D minus and I wonder you know, we've said all the line to be much better this year Yeah, it'll be better protecting the outside, but I wonder how teams are just gonna shove up the good side for them as McDaniel Has had a lot of experience Have coming up with plays trying to get the ball out fast. Yes. Yes trying to give two seconds or less basically So, but I do worry about that. I don't mind lose having two guys I'm worried about like the Bears have You know two holes in their offensive line. It's like okay I think we can work around that because we have three really good linemen on the in the other three spots But having your whole middle of the line stink Makes me a little nervous Yeah, I go back to the Texans too. Well, we're at it. Yeah I can't figure out Stroud man I can't figure out like I'm telling you I Think you could put this I mean the Rams would be number one, but let's say top three It would be hard for you to convince me that there are Three other rosters top to bottom better if you exclude the quarterback position than the Texans like what Nick Casario has built There is is pretty remarkable But now you're going into your fourth season they they wisely they you know, they bring it back is the one year rookie years phenomenal Last two years has been a massive regression. You hear kind of whispers and is there something else going on What what has led to this but nothing nothing specific and I'm talking to people in the league and no people in the league Or like I don't know man. I don't know And so in this offseason has there has there been any changes there enough To to believe that he's going to be a different dude and then wide receivers have been injured and he's oh you go back to college with Stroud His slot receiver is the most important Position for him for I mean some some quarterbacks Have to have a great tight end some quarterbacks need a big x hit You go bit whether I think it was a JSN I think it was JSN Jackson Smith and jigba Like he thrives when he has a slot receiver and then tank del got injured and and he he has them in the same sense really And so making sure that spot is is taking care of and what are they going to get from the receivers this year and now all of a sudden you get the Higgins with the injury but I don't know I see J Stroud if you said there's one player in this league In 2026 where like it hinges on it could be completely stripping now all of a sudden we need a new quarterback We're moving on from Stroud and this thing we got to regroup because now the clock's ticking with all these other players that we have here And and and we can't find a veteran who can come in and replace him and the thing kind of becomes a mess over the next year or two Or they could be playing in the Super Bowl Well like one player, you know I was gonna throw two quarterback groups at you after I did my circle and the first quarterback group was maker break Guys that I just felt like this is it we're either going this way or this way and Stroud was the first guy in the list 28 and eight is a starter rookie year 41 08 yards 23 TDs five picks 8.2 yards per attempt And looked like he was a guy and it is now looking like the guy who's either going to hold them back Or if he if they can figure out oh, we have a better running game now We improved the offensive line a little bit still not great, but it's it's a little better What receivers we we drafted two rookies last year one got hurt the other one still there we traded for booty Collins Del is going to show up at some point. We're probably better And our defense is going to be so fucking good. We just need to drive the car Yep, just just drive us from Boston to New York City and just don't get a speeding ticket don't hit any other cars and we're and we might make the Super Bowl I have the same questions as you can do with five route like you don't have to go merit parkway with all the weaving in it You know what I mean like right it's like this this route is going to be four hours and 10 minutes But just get us there safe middle lane cruise control 67 you have 72 miles an hour whatever it is and let's go We put gas in the car. You're not gonna have to stop Yeah, we're leaving at 130 between lunch and dinner. You don't need to stop for food Yeah, middle lane just go straight Right, we're no rush to get there. Don't even use your phone. We don't you don't need ways. You're just I know you know I have the whole time Put an audio book on like a true crime. You know like just just relax right because I think the running game monk armor is He's like a like a B, you know, they last year they had F's and this year now monk armor At least he can move the chains for three and a half four or four and a half yards When they give him ball and and he's gonna have to lead a ton because the defense is so good I'm with you because then you also have the contract piece with him too Right because what happens if he's really good then you're like, well, is he really good because our team's awesome Or is he really good because he's actually good? So that's one. Yeah, he and Bryce younger and almost identical Situations from that draft, right? That was my next guy. Both organizations want desperately For Stroud and young to make that next step this year or for Stroud to to get back to where he was as a rookie Young's tricky. I think they've handled it perfectly like Dan Morgan. I have a great appreciation for him as a general manager They know they can't pay the guy Yeah, but but I did like like I thought he played pretty well in that playoff loss. I have I think he's incrementally gotten better after a Disasterous start to his career. They've gotten better as an organization. They keep drafting well Um, they they've kind of I don't know. I did for the first time in a long time I feel like they're stabilized as an organization. I really do And so now Neither franchise with the Texans and Stroud and Panthers with With with Bryce Young. We're willing to you know go all in and who could but they also have handled it well You get the sense from them whether it's believe whether it's true or not It feels believable that like we're fully behind them We want desperately and they do they want desperately for both of these guys to take that next step this year And for them to have to go write a massive check to them Um, but but we can't do it yet, you know There's a lot of uh Tech Macmillan buzz too Who I guess that everyone calls T Mac But uh, yes, but has a chance he got he got tested me during the draft for calling them Tet. I got I got uh I got word back from from his people and he He does not like Okay, first of all, you're lower on them than everybody else. So at least say his name right you know, so yeah Yeah, well he came on like a freight train near the end of last year And now it looks like year two might might really if you're gonna pick a wide receiver What wide receiver could really make a leap. I think he's probably the best pick So Bryce has that I didn't like some of the injuries and bad juju stuff from the preseason with them That always makes me nervous, but same um, but yeah, do it this will Bryce this will be like where two of us A year ago even though he already had the contract, but it's like okay We're gonna know for sure one way or the other with two. I feel the same way with Bryce like this is it they if it if it it's not happening this year. Maybe he starts bouncing around. - Yeah, and it's a good draft next year too. - Yeah. - No matter where you're picking in the first round to get a guy to kind of plug into what they're doing and not skip a huge beat. - My last guy for make a break and you might have one too. But, and I think Atlanta's gonna be terrible. We talked about it on my pod last week. I think they have a chance to be the worst team in the NFC. - Don't even look good, right? - Yeah, they, they, there's just a lot of red flags and, you know, they have two, I think they were hoping could hold the fort until Penix was healthy and obviously can't 'cause he's not a, not a starting football quarterback anymore. So they're, they're banking on Penix who they spent the eighth pick on the draft on. You know, it was two weeks ago. They, it feels like they drafted them. And this feels like make a break for this too. Like if this doesn't work this year, maybe you zagged the other way. There's so many good quarterbacks. Maybe you try to be one of the five or six worse teams in the league, take your chances again. But do you see any chance that they can salvage him? - I mean, with that roster, I'm not sure, to be honest. And, and, and there was always about injuries. He had 45 starts in college and, and had some ups and downs. Begin at Indiana, I think it was. Obviously finished at Washington. There were some times where you worried about his durability throughout his career in, in college. Has the, the ACL in November, right? And after nine starts, some promising stuff. Like I didn't, I didn't have him as the eighth best player in the draft, but I saw maybe late first round, you know, a player that, that could be a starter, but I'm not gonna, I'm not giving away a top 10 pick for, for this guy. I, it's also important to remember two. They didn't draft them. The guys who were making the decisions now, starting with Matt Ryan, Ian Cunningham, who I have, I've known for since we were both pups in this business, great deal of respect for Ian. There's something too you want your guy. And then you're staring at this draft that we can, I don't know if we'll get, how much we'll get to it in a little bit. For example, let's go down to like, maybe down to 10 or 12, where, where they look like first rounders. And, and you're also looking at a season where you think they're probably gonna be picking pretty high. And so, maybe we get our guy and, and put our stamp on this organization and, and buy to a, buy Michael, and then just look, let's, let's build this thing from the spot that you have to build it. So, I don't have high hopes for, for Atlanta this year. I don't have, have, have high hopes for Pennix with Atlanta. I, for him personally, he's a great young man. I, I hope that he has a good enough season where, where there's opportunity for him, but my guess is at the end of the year that Atlanta's gonna be one of these teams that we're just banging on and March and April as we lead up to the 2027 NFL draft is they're very much in the mix. And they're worried like, all right, the Jets have three picks. Cleveland's got two. Are they gonna get leapfrog, yeah, exactly. Yeah, they're, they're under in the over-unders. There's been a lot of action on the end because I think people, I think it's eight, was seven and a half, and now it's like kind of between, there's heavy juice on the under for seven and a half and I would say six and a half, yeah, six naps, right? What you said about we want our guys when people take over like a movie studio or the TV side and it's like, yeah, we have, and it's like, well, I don't get credit for that if it works out. I'm just gonna get rid of those. I want to come up with stuff that we did 'cause then we get the credit. In football, especially at Pennix, three ACLs already, haven't really seen enough flashes to me to be like, all right, let's try one more year, I'm trying to get another quarterback. I have four QBs at a very interesting inflection point of their careers and you mentioned Herbert, actually five, I'm sorry, you mentioned Herbert already. Josh Allen, we don't need to do the whole. Josh Allen, Super Bowl legacy, we don't need to do that. Drake May, we talked about it already. The last two, Borough and Stafford, for different reasons. - Interesting. - Borough, six years, he's only made it to the finish line and three, hasn't made the playoffs since '22. It's still being perceived as one of the five best guys, right? Bengals are being considered a playoff team. They're favored to win 10 plus games and people are always making excuses about the offensive line. They don't spend enough. Meanwhile, they went and they kept those two big receivers. But walk me through what happens if the Bengals go eight and nine this year and Borough's not that good. And he plays the whole season. And he plays the whole season and it's just like, yeah, they're eight and nine. It's a great question. I actually think a healthy Borough is, I think so highly of a healthy Borough that that doesn't even compute for me. So he's a guaranteed 10 win guy for you if he's healthy and can play the whole season. - Yeah, if you give me best or close to best up, 100% healthy, good season from Joe Borough, I think they're 10 win team. - Just because of Joe, I mean, the defense has obviously improved. They've actually done some positive things. - But they still can't block. - They still can't block. And I don't know how this is healthy. Honestly, I am such a, like I just, he's a different cat. I can remember sitting in meetings with Brian Greacy and I sat in meetings with him at LSU and walking out of there and both looking at each other. 'Cause normally we would have a sense of like, I don't know what this guy, or like, how was that, you know? And both of us being like, so what do you think, what do you think? I don't know and I don't mean like, I don't know as like, I don't know. I mean, I legitimately don't know. And then just watching his progression, I don't, there are very few guys that can maneuver the pocket, that read things the way he does. That had the onions, as I like to say, to make some of the throws that you make, like he's just different and he's just different. But this thing has eroded him. And physically, emotionally. I don't think confidence wise, but I do wonder when that starts to set in. I kind of want to see him go somewhere else of this. If this year isn't, hey, we're back in the playoffs, things are rolling. I want to see Joe Burrow get an opportunity somewhere else where it's like, here's Joe. Like Stafford, who's next up that we're gonna talk about. I wouldn't mind seeing a Stafford like situation. It wasn't as dismal since 90. They obviously made the Super Bowl. But like, I want to see elite special players wind up with opportunities where they can actually go and beat themselves, you know? Well, we see this in the NBA all the time. It feels like it happens 10 times as much in the NBA, but a guy I have a couple down here. It's like he's basically Devon Booker now on Phoenix, right? Somebody like that, who we know can be swimming in the pool of the final four of the title potentially, if he's your best guy or close to your best guy. And now is basically in 500 teams. It's like, well, I know there's more there. I wonder if they trade him. But then we've had people like Anthony Davis get traded and the rant traded or signed with new teams a bunch of times. I do think if they're not a 10 or 11 win team, I do wonder if he's on that team next year. Maybe after seven years, maybe you're just like, fuck it. Let's who's ready to make us a Godfather offer? The Stafford thing is different. Obviously, this is a shock that we're talking about. Well, 'cause Orlowski got me thinking, 'cause Orlowski had that thing on TV this week where he said they win another Super Bowl. He's one of the seven best ever. And I'm like, that doesn't. I know we say stuff on TV. We say list stuff, but maybe we don't have the list. The question for me is, can Stafford move into the top 10 and get the 10th spot? Which I think the competition would be Steve Young, Breeze, Josh Allen, ironically, who probably after everything said isn't done, is gonna take it anyway, Bradshaw and Otto Graham. And Stafford's thrown over 60,000 nerds, MVP Superbowl win. It would be interesting if they won again, remember L.A. won the two. He won the first one, but then they won the second one too. And it just completely tilted how you just saw him after that. And I think that's a stake for Stafford. I, I person think he'd have to be the 10th guy in that list if they won the Superbowl again. I don't know, where do you stand? Who did you say after Breeze? What was the second name? What? This would be the 10th spot right now. Steve Young, Breeze, Josh Allen, Terry Bradshaw, Otto Graham. I think would be the next five in some order. Well, here's what I do know. Oralofsky's always been right about Matthew Stafford. But Oralofsky's also been just a little north of, of reasonable with it, you know, because they were teammates and all that. So I take, I take what he's saying sometimes and like, yeah, you're right. How special he is. You're right about all of that. But like, we're always gonna go a little too far. But I, it is, it does change your career when you look back on it. That's second Super Bowl. And my gosh, is he lined up for it this year. I'm fascinated to see how it plays out with the, the health of Aaron Donald. Can they manage that throughout the year? I guess it's the skeptic in me. It's like every time we, every time we think that there's this super team in the NFL that they're unbeatable coming into the year. - It's usually dicey. - Something happens. And I'm not sitting here trying to send bad jujuts. That way I love Sean. I love what they've done in organization. I'm behind everything that they're doing. But I'm worried about that, but specifically to answer your question, I think he is different. I really do. I think Stafford sees the game and then he's one of the rare ones. Like Breeze saw the game the way Stafford does. - Yeah. - Stafford just has better tools, right? Stafford can make four or five throws in the game that Drew just couldn't, you know? And that's the difference. And then the longevity of it and ascending, yes, yes ascending because he had a different opportunity and it's supporting cast, but ascending even like late years. Like the year he just put up last year, man, like kind of like defies logic, right? - Right. - And the throws he's still making at that age. And sometimes you see like, you know, I remember like was it Clemons late in his career early, Pedro, like they lost their stuff, but they could still, but it feels like he's still got all of his stuff. - Clemons is a good one. - That's a good analogy for this. - Clemons, right? - Clemons had this whole extra six years in the 2000s or five years, whatever it was, passed his double prime when he was still, like he felt like he could go out and start a game three of a world series and throw seven innings. - Yeah, and so, I don't know, that I think top 10 is absolutely in the cards. And I mean, find seven is not the seven. - No, no, I'm not putting in more than that. - And let's see what happens with Josh Allen's got a lot of career left. And Josh Allen's like, Josh Allen could, if he, if Stafford ascends to 10, Allen's get the next X amount of years to go steal that spot from them, then now we're looking at 11. But at the end of the day, you're one of the best, it's called 12 quarterbacks to ever play in this game. - Right, pretty good. - I'm with you on the Rams. I'm a little skeptical because of the super team thing in the history of it. We talked last week on the pot about no last 30 years. There's really only been one prohibitive favorite that's actually won the Super Bowl. It was the 2018 Patriots, who easily could have lost in Kansas City during that run, right? - Yeah. - Like just a lot can go wrong, especially with the top heavy roster. And I know, I don't feel, I think Seattle has more talent. I think the Rams higher level talent, they're top tier guys. If you're gonna go seven, this top seven versus top seven, the Rams are better. But I think Seattle is more talent. And we talked last week about, can you be a nobody believes in us team after you won a Super Bowl? And I kind of feel like Seattle qualifies. Like everyone's just discounting them and pushing them aside and trying to cope with other teams. And meanwhile, they're basically bringing 90% of their core back, including just about everyone on the defense, which was the reason they won the Super Bowl. - Yeah, and then I'm gonna contradict myself though. And then you envision an NFC championship rematch, right? - With Aaron Dottled, now playing 50 plays in the NFC title game. - And Miles Garrett coming off the edge in one damn good corner in another capable corner. And that was about the only thing that got them. And now, how does that look for Bradford? I don't know. - Let's take a break 'cause we have 25 minutes to rip their college football. Let's go. - This episode is brought to you by PayPal. Every winning team has that one player who can do it all. The new PayPal app, it's kind of like that. You can chat, pay, earn rewards, manage your account, all in one place. Plus find offers, deals and stackable rewards. PayPal also offers purchase protection on eligible items. So you're covered if something doesn't go your way. Download the new PayPal app to get started and see PayPal.com/protectionterms. - Fun college football season ahead. I'm obviously invested with UCLA. The draft is gonna be incredible. The storylines are all over the place. And just when I thought I couldn't be more excited as the most casual college football fan possible, you come up this week with content saying that 17 guys could go with the first pick in the draft. And I think you made the case and there's all these dudes. And I think the biggest case with this is the quarterbacks. What we've seen year to year the last few years, whatever we think is gonna happen in the summer by the time we get to January, the things flipped. So you have, you have like you have more on sellers and car manning, Levit, Chambus, Mensa and Niko. So you think there's, is there a world where all eight of those guys could potentially go number one if the season shifted certain ways? - I think there's a world in which all eight of them, if they all played a level, I think they're capable of could wind up being first round picks. I think also think you have to keep in consideration that last year, a lot of people were on Drew Allory, wasn't for me, Club Nick. I thought Club Nick was gonna take another step. He didn't, Nuss Meyer got injured all season long. He had a great camp, Club Nick's had a great camp. They both show they still know how to play football. But what's different this year is almost all those guys on the list have an opportunity to go back to school too. So we could be, we could really rack this thing and be talking about 2018, but I don't, I think probably, I would set the over under at five for first rounders of this group. And when it comes to the first overall, what's interesting about this class and hasn't been talked about a lot, like Dante Moore, the Raiders were out sending their brass to games and really looking at the situation. And there was a tough decision. Like there were people in the organization that favored Dante heavily. And there were people in the organization who really thought Mendoza was the guy. And then Dante Moore makes it a non-decision when he decides to go back to school for another year. So would you like that appreciated that he did that? I thought it was smart. I thought it showed maturity. He was ready enough, but for the money you can go back and make and to give yourself another year of opportunity to grow and to come into this league where we're seeing guys like Bonix have success with 63 starts or whatever it is. Guys are coming in with 30, like almost minimum 30 starts. And we're seeing a lot fewer, not in all cases, but we're seeing fewer and fewer that was like just dead on bus, right? And I think a lot of it has to do with experience and maturity and you've been through some adversity. But this year's class, it can go both ways with all of them. And even Dante, he's the easiest one to say yeah, he's the most likely to be the number one overall pick. - Would you say he was CJ Stroud 2.0 or CJ Stroud? - I think there's so much of CJ Stroud. - Yeah, yes. I think he's a little bit more willing to run but definitely pocket pass or first. Just I'm saying a lot of the same things about Dante as I was about Stroud when he came out. It's best pure pass or the touch throws a beautiful ball. It's like the receivers don't have to work to go get it. Understands the offense, distributes it, moves around the pocket, he's a little more willing to run but neither has this how it serve an arm, good arm can make all the throws. But the big thing for me is I need the big moments. Mendoza's tape last year Bill, it was up and down. Dante Moore was the better quarterback. If you go and you just every single play for both Dante Moore was the better quarterback, but the moments. It was like 28 touchdowns, zero interceptions in the red zone. Highest efficiency, third down, fourth down. He threw himself into problems, latent games. Oregon, I mean, yeah, Oregon, Iowa, Penn State. Interceptions, one was a pick six against Oregon. And then he made the play or the drive or the five plays late in the game that won it. So he had those moments where you can see that he's just, he's wired differently, right? I love those guys. I need, I need to see that out of Dante. You know, like that we have that Indiana game. We're good to pick six and then he has one good drive and then it falls apart again. Can't see that out of him this year because you know what, like nipping at his heels. This Lenora sellers guy from South Carolina gets a new offensive coordinator this year. I'm telling you, if six, one and a half, whatever, 230 built, he is as fast as he is quick. He has got a rocket for an arm. He's a, he's not an elite passer, but he's better than Jalen Hertz was. I think he's better than Lamar Jackson was coming out in terms of just pure passing. I think he's got a chance to be, to be like right there at the end this year, if South Carolina with this, with briles there, Kendall Briles. And then Darien Mences, another guy that nobody's talking about. He's, I watch Mences tape and I'm like, how big of a gap is there between him and Dante more? And now he goes, he goes from Duke to Miami as the second best or one A1B in terms of pocket passing, but he's a better runner. And then you get Hertz Manning, who like if he, if his eyes are in the right place and his mechanics are better, and he's able to hit more spots than he was last year, He's going back to summer and watching him. I forgot how fast. like he's the, he's the, he's the antithesis of his uncle's not really. He has the, he has the man instinct when you're just assuming he's slow because he's related to Peyton or, or you assume that he's really like, he must have been in all the camps growing up and he like much said, yeah, such an understanding of offensive and his feet must be great. No, he's not. He's just kind of a gunslinger who, when he takes off running, he just runs by, with those long strides, runs by a ton of guys and then CJ Carr at, at, at Notre Dame, he's not the biggest. He doesn't have the biggest arm, but I would argue he's got the best processing smarter squatter back of the entire class and he is so damn accurate throwing the ball. And I didn't even get it about JJ McCarthy. No, it's different, man. Okay. It's different. It's different. Okay. People are scarred by JJ. I can see that and maybe, maybe, maybe that'll be the thing this year. And you know what, they're not playing anyone comparatively speaking all, you know, for the vast majority of the year. I think he, I think he could easily win the Heisman Notre Dame Quarterback 11, 12 win regular season. But I think he's a, he's just, he's wired differently. Well, you had sellers and you had seller second. Yeah. At least in your preseason rankings, which he is not on the draft boards. That's not a consensus pick, but it seems like you're the highest on him of anybody I've seen. Well, we did a seven part series in the show. Yeah. And doing all these quarterbacks. We kind of pitting them head to head. We couldn't do 14 shows, one on each. So, and, and I just kind of assume going into the year, especially the way Arch finished that like the, all the talk was who's number one. Is it, is it Arch or is it Dante, right? Yeah. And then we got down with that and it was like clearly Dante. Arch can absolutely make those next steps this year. People forget too. The mannings like to stay, they like to overstate their welcome in college and, and be ready for the NFL. So don't allow him get him being in the 28 draft. And then we got to car and sellers and a couple of the other guys. And it was like, yeah, I don't know. It's not only not one, you know, Arch versus Dante to be the number one guy. It's, it's Arch even in the top three. You know, and could Arch be the fifth best coming into the year. You have them for I've got them fourth. And I think Sam Levitt at LSU with with Lane Kiffin who's in the, you know, all the headlines for all the wrong reasons. Or all the, you know, the off the field reasons with, with now trying to bring pro players back. And I get it, like, let's blow this whole college thing up and to get some, some leadership in place. But that's a different show. There's there very few like he's in the, he's in the one handful of guys in college where you see a player as talented as Levitt who's more talented at Jackson. Yeah. More explosive runner, more dynamic, bigger arm. And, and you, and you watch Dart and the way he progressed. And then Trinidad Chamblis in one year coming from Ferris State Division two to see the way he progressed. And now you're giving him the most talented quarterback he's worked with since like his USC days in a full year to do that. And I get the schedules difficult and all that. I think Sam Levitt could be in the conversation with number one overall. One of it's all said and done. But yeah, I mean, this class is, and, and by the way, did Chesney give you, like, what's the update from your boy on Niko? It's a lot of optimism right now in the UCLA side. Niko's like, if you're a new coach taking over a program and you get this guy who's super talented as your QB, who's actually had some success in the past, right? So it's like, it's fixable. Whatever it was going on, you can fix it or you can accentuate all the good things about him and put him in the right environment. I mean, I, I do think he's a Heisman possibility. You know, I think they'd have to go eight, three, nine and two. But as a dark horse, I think I think any of these quarterbacks as a dark horse, but you know, I think Fando has them. I think Fando has them seven plus wins is basically even odds. They're 22 to one to make the college playoffs. But they've been, they keep adding dudes. They just added the James Madison linebacker, who's, you know, it was the best linebacker in that part of the country last year. So I don't know what to think anymore. Can we, can we take us that back and just look like I've followed your, I've gotten to know you well in the last couple of years. But when I'm in, I'm on it. I've followed, I followed your, the fact that you're talking to me about a JMU linebacker. Yeah. The portal is like, I just to send down player of the year. So it's happening to UCLA. Oh, I love it. But you see the other thing with, you know, and you see this with college football, we just saw it in Indiana. When you go from like, you have a fan base that's basically been in the desert, which just can't teens and some freedoms. And that's all they've had for 20 years. And now you pull up with like your fucking cheeseburger cart and you're like, Hey, who wants to eat? I was like, Oh, my God. It's just real. It's just happening. So I think that energy from just them potentially being good again. I don't know. That can train. We just saw it. It can transform everything. It can lift everybody up and magical shit can happen. I don't think people nationally have a clue how good Niko is. I, in fact, I kind of wanted, I didn't want to write them off. I kind of was like, I'm like, let them, let them maybe a couple of years, we'll revisit Niko. Like that whole thing was ugly at Tennessee. Yeah. Is there parent involvement? The money route. And then I, and then I had a scout call me in in October is like, you know, I know they're not like national picture. You're focusing on the top teams and all that. And I know you're getting ready for the this year's draft. But when you get a minute, go watch what what Niko is doing. And he's doing it with not a whole lot. And then I put in some of the tape that I was like, yep, all right, keep them in mind. And then I watched the summer. He's got, he's got a toughness about him that I didn't expect. He's got a an ability to bounce back from mistakes that I kind of was worried about when you think when you kind of build a mental picture of, yeah, he's kind of going after the money is a mercenary. What's going on? But this guy loves ball. And you can't hide that on tape. And then you watch this like six foot five gazelle when he takes off to run. And then you watch the ability at six foot five to make guys miss small small spaces. And then I start to watch some of those NFL throws like leading anticipation, drilling it from one hash to the to the sideline. Like there's nothing he can't do. Now his deep ball accuracy was atrocious of Tennessee. They didn't drive it vertically as much last year. I'm interested to see this year if he can improve in that area. But otherwise like he's another guy. I just like don't rule him out when we start talking about like fine. If it's not number one overall pick, it was a fun exercise. And it brought a lot of awareness. Like Mendoza was a second round pick for most. And he's the number one overall pick. And and you go back cam ward. I talked to a scout in September of his final year two years ago. And he's like, man, you're like, get off of cam ward. I've got a fifth on him. And Jayden Daniels is the number two overall pick. And he was considered like a third or fourth by most scout. So like we went six out of the last 10 guys that wound up number one overall picks. They weren't even considered first rounders coming in the year, including Kyler, who was like the number nine overall major league baseball draft pick. He wasn't going to play in the NFL. So so it's a fun exercise. But when you start to look at all these guys and what the potential is for them and you look at Nico, I don't know if he takes another step with the right supporting cast this year, people are going to have to they're they're going to have to pay attention because he's more talented than than the guy that we're all saying, like, it's probably going to be the number one overall pick in Dante Moore. He's just flat out more talented. So Chesney at Holy Cross had this guy, Sluka, who he used to use, you know, like he would do these design run plays and just would really use his athleticism, which gives us a lower competition. So it was helpful. But he kind of reminds me a little bit of what he could do with Nico where use his legs and needs like really smart ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's also a couple awesome non-quarterbacks in this draft. Yes. Like Jeremiah Smith, who did you see the what was that the Caleb Downs was saying he said in some interview that he thought Lam and pick in. He was like, no, Jeremiah Smith is good as those guys. Like whoa, those guys are really good. Someone remind Caleb he's got to go back to the locker room today too. Those aren't too like, you know, easy going. Yeah, I get it, you know, like this. Yeah. But, but and I actually answered that question like talent wise, yeah, he's better than both of them. Now, like, there's something to be in a better and, you know, having the experience and learn to get off a press against growing ass men and all that stuff. But, but from a talent's perspective, and I feel like, yeah, we did it with Marvin Harrison Jr. and look, you know, I feel a little burned. I don't say feel a little burned from the marvelous engineer hype. And I hear you, but, but here's the other part. Remember the young Julio Jones, AJ Green class in 2011. Yeah. And I wound up, it was, it was Julio. He's the best, best receiver in the class and the comp for Jeremiah Smith is Julio Jones. That's who we have big. Oh my god. Get down four, four speed, downhill, just like a freight train running through you, but then can stop and adjust. But, but I think the comp for, for Cam Coleman, who's transferring from Auburn, he gets like the refugee camp. We're the way they don't have a quarterback we could play and winds up with archmaning now at Texas. I Think it's I think there's some similarities with AJ green kind of like that gumbee like elasticity. Oh interesting So you didn't both of those guys ahead of anyone from last year. Yes, and you are here's an interesting one I'm not gonna name it the NFL has a couple scouting Groups. Let's call it where they they pooled different scouts like it was national blesso one of them I just went back for a reference one of them has and the grades are they're their entry level scouts in a lot of cases I'm a but it matches up with what our grades are in the preseason But just for just so it doesn't feel like we're over hyping it right mentioned. I Like even the one of the scouting services that and if they're like 20 plus NFL teams belong to I think it was 20 I counted 24 players with grades this year Coming into the season higher than the highest grade of a player last year You can even say it in in hoops to where they'll have the high school class that's coming in in the greater from 0 to 100 and sometimes it'll be like 99 97 97 96 and it'll just Just like wow that year had more talent than the year after. I don't know why this football because we didn't mention Dylan Stewart the edge from Carolina and then Leonard Moore the cornerback from Notre Dame both of those guys seem like Yeah, let him talk to the line dudes like he's like Pat's for 10 Like just throw him in the mix with those like 10 quarterbacks we just talked about and oh and yeah And Colin Simmons after after Dylan Stewart the Texas linebacker like and oh in this Janz AP air from From Alabama at edge - so there's three edges like we could have another like Khalil Mack jadevian clowny type Well, he's a better player, but this guy's a better upside like And a killer offensive lineman too. This is a nutty draft. So you can be you can have the 10th pick in this draft and get somebody who might be like a three-time all pro Yes, yes, it's gonna be what you you can have the 23rd pick in this draft and they might you know That range could be better as I just was saying that range could be better than like maybe a seventh overall pick less or this year So my last question I'm not gonna I'm not gonna ask you who's gonna win the national championship because you got to do that and mention your show For my people for the people who listen to this who are both die hard college fans, but also casual just put it on a Saturday Who is the must-watch team this year? Or give us like your top three give us your bronze silver gold Three teams that are just gonna be guaranteeing the entertainment all year. I'm gonna have a good time watching their games LSU. I mean LSU is that are they bronze silver or gold? I'm gonna go gold. Well gold for LSU And then they might wind up with three or four losses, but like Lane Kiffin leaving Ole Miss in the college football playoff Quarterback who he he found as the 246th Ranked juco quarterback not player quarterback brought him into Ole Miss and Trinidad Chamble has developed them into that game against Georgia that Chamble has had was the best tape outside of maybe Mendoza versus Ohio State I saw any quarterback last year and then leaves and the quarterbacks like not see Lane like I'm good here. I'm gonna say here Early in the season they play Ole Miss they kick off the season with Clemson They now are trying to get three former NFL players who were in camp sign contracts back in There's a there's another meeting in Baton Rouge Another hearing in Baton Rouge on Thursday with a judge Who's got to determine whether they can block the TRO to allow these players to play they can't play against Clemson So like to start the season. There's all this mess. By the way, I think we know how the Baton Rouge judge is gonna Is gonna read on her to keep us posted on that trial Then we get the rematch again or the the matchup against Ole Miss and and then you get Sam Levitt coming in so LSU and Lane Kiffin is is the like they're absolute must-watch I you know Oregon's gonna Oregon's Oregon and Texas have the best two rosters Texas I'm more like Texas is either gonna run this thing and look awesome and win a national championship Or you're already hearing some like splintering in like this player who was dismissed from the team and may there's some social media posts So Texas would for me as arguably the most talented team in the country This thing could go remember last year we had Penn State and Clemson came into the year We talked about them is like these rosters the you know they're they're they're ranked one two Neither of them finished in the top 25 like Texas is either gonna be like right there at the end or this thing could fall apart I get that feeling and then I'm gonna throw I mean signety obviously in Indiana, but I'm I'm gonna throw Miami in there Watching watching crystal ball like get over the hump last year and win some massive games and not have the errors late late in the games like You know clock management those sorts of things Now they upgrade over Carson back and bring in this men's a guy that I don't think people have any respect for national Like how good he really just talked about that and you've got the most explosive dynamic Weapon in in all of college football not named Jeremiah Smith and Malachi Tony who's now gonna be a true sophomore And I just I think with their schedule in the ACC they're gonna be in it late And I think they're gonna keep getting better. I think they're they're gonna be a freight train towards you I actually we already gave it out so I could say there. I'm picking Miami to win the national championship Okay So it was that because the yet the other question I was gonna ask you is if you had to say somebody was gonna be 2026 Indiana who would you pick, but it sounds like it's Miami Yeah, look at my list here. We'll see if I can find another um I like the Miami pick. Yeah, yeah, Miami would be the best. I think that's good. Miami would be the pick. That would be yeah, how many wins for UCLA eight Yeah, I think eight and three seems reasonable to me and then maybe you get maybe it's eight and four because you get to the you know some We played 12 in the regular season. This is what I'm talking about. Yeah, I know that's a casual college for profit. GMU transfer linebackers, then we get eight eight and four Eight four plus playoffs that the playoff will encounter is Like a big guy in a bowl or something We'll give you a bowl. We're not going to playoff. It's happening Yeah, that's the best bet on the board right now My guy um, all right, McShay. Say hi to mench. So you doing all right. So you doing all right with the Mickey Gasper and the uh Another red tax come from behind win all kinds of fun stuff. He's doing our we just did a little retreat out in Montana The menchers and the McShays so we uh, we're good to go. Oh nice. All right. Say hi to everybody. Good to see you. Don't forget about McShay's newsletter Which is excellent and then the McShay show which is kicking in a full gear Starting this weekend. Good to see you. Good to see you, bud. Thanks All right, Diana Tarrassi is here. Not only is she one of the great women's basketball players of all time She was a guest on the last episode of the Grandland basketball hour One day before I was I was basically out at ESPN. So we have we have a big history. I had to have you on to talk about Women's hoops and just what we're watching this year because you were in it forever. You played in the league What was your first year like oh five? Oh four was my rookie air. Yeah, oh four Connecticut. Yeah, oh four And now we have these teams these are running Gone and we're over a hundred points all the time. It's guard dependent I think it's been so much fun to watch and of course all the discourse about the WNBA is all the stupid stuff that I have no interest in talking about I've been marveling at how fun it is to watch women's basketball What is different? Do you see it? Yeah Everything like everything in life is it's always trendy And when I got to the WNBA in oh four the game was just super physical. It was an older league, right? There was a lot of like there was rookies that were 32 You know really get you started so like it wasn't this young Energetic league. It was like a lot of old veteran players that you know played a certain way for a long long time And I want to say and I think in oh seven is when we hired Paul Westhead who's the groove go who's like Who originated like the running gun and you know for his whole life. It was well. That can't work You can't win a champ like that And he came into the WNBA not knowing anything about women's basketball, but I mean he didn't I even think you knew who I was He had like zero clue But he brought this style of play in um and we won two championships in oh seven and then in oh nine with Cory gains And I think that that stayed around for a little bit Yeah, but people you know it's like anything when they don't know what to teach it They're not convinced with it so they go back to their old way So then for there was a long period where it was heavy center dominated like you know every team had to center You'd come down and you throw it into and pop up up And then change the last you know three or four years Yeah, Cardosa her style and even Asia has been the best player in the league for half a decade But you put your forward at the foul line faced up Try to either do like spin move and get to the basket or shoot and that was basically everybody's offense And yeah, I mean I played with bg for 10 years. I mean every team had two six five stiffs just to match up with her Right right it was almost like the NBA in like the 50s and 60s But you know you need luck with this stuff and now we have all these guards that are coming in each year there's been either one or two. - And Bill, you know, it's like you have to adapt the rules to, you know, for half my career, there was no three seconds in the key. It's not like there was room to get in there and Euro step. I mean, there was six people clogging the lane. You know, like, you know, 80s and early 90s MBA where there's just no room to operate. So I think with the rule of change and the three seconds of no hand checking, I mean, we could go on and on about that stuff. - Would you have had, what are your stats if you're in your prime in 2026 on the right team? - Well, I mean, I average, I think 25 for like five straight years. - Right. I mean, free throws are up, three point percentages up. - Points per game is up. I think you're in the high 20s, maybe 30. - I mean, I think the way it's trending, you're gonna see someone average 30 in the next two or three years. And, you know, with the addition of teams, you know how that goes, you add a lot of teams, but there's also now a lot of more bad teams as we see like in the NBA, where yeah, people are gonna be putting up 42 every night if you're planning to get a bad team that has nothing to compete for. - Right, and there's three point shooting, is that a whole other level than it was? - Well, I mean, we watched the game all the time and I still have to adjust like, was that a good shot? Are we really just taking that shot now? Do we usually come down and just take any wide open shot by any player? - I mean, there is a different type of playing now that I think West Head gave us that a little bit, but, you know, that's not how, that's not how we grew up playing the game, right? It was reversible, everyone touches it. No one's touching the ball now. - Right, well, do you think that is that a regular season thing 'cause I wonder in the playoffs, when the stakes are higher, are we gonna see people pull up from the arc and take 30 foot threes in the fourth quarter? I'm gonna say no. - No, you know, in the playoffs, everything gets tighter, right? You know, the election played a bit more physical, possessions are less, you know, teams aren't turning it over as much so you're not playing in transition. I mean, and I think those are the teams, I mean, Coach Raymond would always say it. I think the last two and a half months of practice going into the NCAA tournament, all we worked on was half-court offense. You go, that's the only thing that'll win you a championship. You can talk about defense and rebounding, but if you can't execute in the half-court, you're not gonna win. - I mean, that was the next, we just watched it in the playoffs with them. Came back to execution late. - I mean, I've never seen a team be outplayed four straight games to be a three-one. I've never seen that in my life. - What was the luckiest championship you won? Did you have a lucky one or did you - Oh, of course. - Were all of them the right championship, but did you have one where it's like, "Man, some stuff won right for us." - I mean, in 2007, that's when we were just, you know, we were all in our mid-20s, we had no clue what we were doing. You know, it was our first year in the playoffs, we get to the finals and we're playing the Detroit shock. You know, Bill Lambier's the coach, it's Swing Cash, Katie Smith, Tweetie Nolan, Cheryl Ford. I mean, this is like, it's like bad boys, bad girls 2.0. Like, they just won a championship to like distinct ways of playing basketball. You know, they were a ground in pound, like you said, possession, rebound, throw it up, go get it, and we were the opposite. And we were like, how many threes can we get up? You know, we played this, you know, fake matchup zone, which would give us fits. And now there was no business winning that game five in Detroit, but for some reason, you know, when it's your year, it just happens. - Sometimes it's your year. It's what happened in the next. - But, you know-- - Sometimes you need a semifinal, but I've got to throw the ball off somebody's back with nine seconds left and a crazy tip in and a couple of things need to happen. - I mean, who would have thought Jalen Brunson would be this much of a problem on the court? - And I mean it, I mean it not that we didn't know he was a great player, but at a certain point, I was like, can anyone guard this man? - Right. - Like no one could guard him. - And he would seem like he was gaining strength and getting stronger as the playoffs went along, which it should be the opposite. He was like, they played like 97 games and he seemed, it honestly reminded me a little messy in the World Cup, how when you watch mess he was like 38, and he's absolutely one of the smaller guys, but he's so freaking strong and so low to the ground and just keeps coming and coming and coming and picking his spots and he just figured it out. - Well, and there's nothing like mental fortitude. I mean, that next team was on a mission. And, you know, I'm a Laker fan, I know, you know, we're-- - I'm sorry. - But you know, it's not easy. It wasn't hard to root for that team. Like, they were all nice guys. Like Jalen Brunson's a great guy. McKale, Joe, I mean, there were just guys he wanted to root for 'cause they just played hard and even Kat, I didn't hear him complain about touches once. He just wanted to win. - Well, that's what happens when you have a 1-1, you hit a point. Tuck Rivers always loves talking about this. You hit that point where everybody's got to sacrifice something. And as long as people are willing to do it, it gets harder if you've already won and you have to come back the next year and start sacrificing again when you've already done it. - Well-- - At first time, you got to do it. - Yeah, I always feel, I laugh when I hear the worst sacrifice 'cause, you know, before every season, coaches will be like, "All right, we have to sacrifice." You sacrifice, you sacrifice. Was as long as that one person, "Oh, wait, I have to sacrifice." I thought you meant them. "Come on, maybe sacrifice." I don't know how I thought you meant them. - I'm not giving you up shots. - You mean me? - No, not me, coach. They should sacrifice minutes and some open looks. But yeah, that next team was fun to watch. It was nice to see a team win in that fashion 'cause you hadn't seen it in so long. - Team ball on self-verseness. - You know what, but-- - Define the odds. It was fun. - But like, what team-- - Even I liked it. - I know, what team that is great doesn't play like that. And that's why when these teams just put up with, you know, one or two players doing everything, I'm like, that's not sustainable. It's not gonna work. - Well, it was your guy, Kobe, right? - Well-- - In game seven, 2010, he's having the worst game of his career and then had to figure out how to help the team somehow when he didn't have it. - Well, you forget. Sometimes you need someone to pull you and you through the whole whole. You know, I think sometimes when you're the best player, there's this notion of you, you have to do it in the big moments all the time. But like, it's usually someone else that like, you know, pulls you through the whole. And then you have to talk about Kobe and Jalen Brunson and, you know, Tatum. But, you know, even that Celtics championship, I mean, look at all those guys that stepped up that you wouldn't have thought would be the person in those finals. - Right. That's why I don't. I know that have to give the finals MVP and it's helpful like for somebody like me that loves the history of the game. It's a good snapshot of who mattered. But, you know, now they added the conference MVP. And I really do feel like it screwed up the Celtics a little bit 'cause Jalen won both. But Tatum was the best guy in the team and then we kind of never recovered from that. - That happens a lot, actually. - In 2007, it's funny, Kathy Pondex forgot the WMBA finals MVP. I mean, she should deserve the 100%. But it happens where teams that you think that the Asia wills is what always win the MVP and the brand of stewards and, you know, all the great players. But sometimes it's, you know, it's only that five, seven game stretch where that's all they counts. - This would happen at Tim Duncan and Happy Nominus, seven. - I'm like, if you're the best player, I'm giving you the finals MVP. Unless this is so glaringly obvious that somebody else should have won. I'm giving it to the best player. - Always. I mean, like even when LeBron was probably always the best player in every series he played in. Just give it to him. He's the best player. That's what it is. - When did you become friends? When did you become friends of the Kobe? - So, you know, we had some touch and goes in LA early in my high school years and different events. You know, 96, he was on the Lakers and I was a freshman in high school. Check, I mean, that's, I'd be saying. And then it was mostly more on the limpet teams. That redeem team in 2008 is where we, you know, we practiced a lot together before and after the hotel, the bus rides. I think that's when we really hit it off. The way we kind of-- - Well, you're both sociopathic competitors. You probably loved each other. We're both addicts and we kind of fell in love with each other because of that. 'Cause we understood each other. Like when other people thought, "Oh, you can't go, you can't do it that way." Well, then you could do it this way and you can be like everyone else. That's how we looked at it. - What was the best thing you learned from him? - I mean, his mental strength. I mean, we could talk about the work ethic. But when I would watch him play, it was, that was the only thing that mattered on Earth for those two hours. And if they'd have the players that play basketball could have that, they would fall in love with the game. But they can't get to that point 'cause it's really hard. - Yeah. Yeah, and the work ethic because you see it, you always hear this story from the Olympics. When they put all the dudes together and the younger guys are with the older guys who actually know the routine and what to do and they're kind of like, "Oh, wait, you're getting up at five in the morning "to go climb the Versa Climber? "What's happening?" - Well, at a certain point. - And you emulate it. - Yeah, well, at a certain point, we're like, "Where's Kobe?" 'Cause we'd all get together at the lobby and the Nike suite and we look up, he was always gone. He was always at the gym. He had his own driver and he'd go to the gym three hours before and then he'd leave three hours afterwards. I mean, the guy was just insane. He would find a gym. You know, we were in Beijing, found a gym everywhere we went, just didn't matter. He was gonna find a hoop. - I mean, LeBron's like that, Brady's like that. Jordan was like that. And it seems like you can't turn it off after your career ends because you were so driven. All right, now what do I do? - Well, I think when you get, you know, in those later years in your career, it's actually the work that keeps you coming back. You get addicted to the daily routine. It's almost like it's something that you need to function. And you know, was that always a worker like that my whole career? No, like when you're young, you don't understand that. You know, you can just get up, get on the core, you don't have to stretch, lay some up. After, you know, the game's over, you do whatever you want. And as you get older, you start learning these routines and these patterns that almost become more important in the game. - Right, the structure of how to repeat a really good effort. - Over and over. And then there's-- - But nobody learns that till later. - Well, yeah, well, because then there's the physical part where you actually need it. You actually need it. You actually need the two hours of prepping to, I don't know, do a shoot around. - Right. - And then that comes-- - I mean, my daughter's a division three soccer player, she's a senior. And it wasn't until kind of this off season that I feel like she totally got it. And she's like, I wanna have an awesome season. I'm working out every single day. And even like she had an internship. She's like, I have to get up at six o'clock that he'd work out or else I'm not gonna be able to work out. It was the first time, but that's it. I'm sure LeBron's like that too, no matter where he is. I gotta get up, I gotta work. - Well, that out. And I think that's when you really become comfortable with yourself is when, you know, you have an internship and if you don't work out at six, you're not gonna work out. - So you gotta do it. - You have to do it. - How, when you retired, did you feel like you had more years left or you stayed too long or you left at the exact right time? - No, I think I just, I hit the nail right on the head. I probably could have played a couple more years at the level I was playing. I feel like I, you know, but at that point, there comes these little moments where you'd rather be somewhere else. - Right. - You know, I mean, you, I mean, counter, you missed out on some of the great stuff that's happened the last two years. I feel like you're one of the people that built the league and kept it alive, you know? And now it's actually like, has real momentum. - Yeah, but you know what? I feel like I gained all the things that they'll never have. - Like what? - Like, world travel. I feel like I can, at this point as an adult, I can be in any room with any human being on Earth and be able to function. I actually live a normal life for as much as, you know, as many things that's come my way. I don't walk around with a bodyguard. I go to the grocery store, you know what I mean? Like I haven't become a person that can't function in normal life and I actually kind of love it. I don't take that granted. And you know, in going forward, it's all the things we want to, right? More coverage, more money, but with all that, you know, it comes a different type of lifestyle that all these women are living differently now. Like after games, we would all get together and go to a restaurant and have dinner like, you know, now it should become, you play, you get on a plane, you fly somewhere, you get a, you know, which is great for performance, but for lifestyle-wise. I don't know how much fun they're having. Well, when you have more success that brings scrutiny and backlash and more money, more problems. And then people using you, I always call it the volleyball 'cause people, something they'll just drift in, they just wanna hit the volleyball back and forth with what they're arguing about. And they'll be like, oh, let's do it with WNBA. And they just bring it in, they hit it back and forth and they'll watch the games. - Well, it's been funny with the WNBA 'cause, you know, it's been a lot of new media, which has been great, obviously. This is what we've always wanted and I've always said this where, you know, for a long time, it was always fluffy, positive media. And that's not real, right? You have to find people that, you know, counterpoint and make these arguments. It's what we've always wanted. But, you know, it's a lot of people who haven't followed the league in a long time. So they say things without context and there's backstories, everything. I mean, you know, you can't make a comment about the NBA without the last 30 years of knowledge that you know. - Yeah. - 'Cause each thing kind of is the result of something that happened maybe 10 years ago, whether it's, you know, CBA or what happened with the team or players, there's a lot of backstory. And, you know, I think the more we acknowledge that and the more we study that, well, then, you know, the commentary can become educated in a little bit more, you know, intelligent instead of, you know, so this role, like a fouls. I mean, it's basketball. Everyone fouls a shit out of each other. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it's, yeah, that's what it is. You're trying to score. I'm trying to stop you. - Yeah, just way to the playoffs. Whatever, whichever guard, oh, really good guard on whatever team gets to the last four final four or whatever, Olivia Miles, when she's gone to the basket, it's gonna be a little different. - Well, we know this though, you know, and I think as fans, we have to go back to the competition part. I think that is the one thing that, you know, with all the rule changes and it's kind of strange, it's like the more money you make, you know, this, they try to shelter you a little bit more. I mean, we were making pennies and we were just, we were running through a wall, hamstrings, back injuries, broken hands, it was like, why are we doing this? We're not making any money. - You left, you left and nobody blamed you. You were like, why am I doing this? I'll go make more money somewhere else. This isn't worth it. The last time we chatted, I was in my living room in Russia. - Right. - And we were talking about the warriors. That was the last time, yeah, and I was in Russia and I was making the money that I wanted to make. - Well, that's why I think people who actually care about this and want to see the league continue to prosper when they do stuff like, when they did the three expansion teams, which I hated. - Yeah. - I just don't think there's enough town for it. You mentioned how like, yeah, the points are gonna be up because you're gonna have nights where you're just playing a shit team, but that's, when you overexpand too fast, that's what happens. - Well, I mean, it happens in every league, right? I mean, we have all his 80 years of history. - I mean, half the nights I put on, you know, NBA league pass and you can get me front row tickets to 99% of those games. I wouldn't go. - Right. - I mean, just a lot of bad teams with a lot of, and we talk about, and I'll go back. We talk about there's not enough talent for the rosters. There's not enough talent to coach. How about coaches? - And how about officials? - Well, that's another conversation. Yeah, what league doesn't have bad officiating? I mean, you watch the NFL and you're, you know, oh, that's a terrible flag. You know, the only sport that has a right is tennis 'cause it's robots. - Do you, do anybody jump out out of these younger people that you're watching like, wow, that's one of the most special women's basketball players I've ever seen? Well, I think you, Olivia Miles is a special talent. - I've been trying to tell people. - She's, you know, I think she was a little under the radar because she did leave Notre Dame and she went to TCU, which was a little bit of a smaller school. But, you know, this kid is doing stuff that we, you know, she is Kyrie like handles. She can shoot the basketball. She's, you know, she can get in the lane. And I always said, if you can shoot and you can pass, you can play forever. So, when I watch her, when I watch Paige, you know, when I watch Paige play, I see the complete package on and off the court. - On Olivia, you can see it how she's defended, which I think is always a good, a good mistest of how good somebody is. You're watching, she has a head of steam. - Yeah. - And the people are going backwards and she has everybody on her rope. And then you mentioned Kyrie earlier, she has that Kyrie move when he sticks his right arm all the way out and holds that kind of ahead of the defender and is able to put the layup off the glass with the, with like a nice soft one. She just has it. - She's from, and I mean, to be put in a position where, you know, you go to a team that, you know, they have everything, you know, roster-wise. I mean, what is a incredible opportunity for her to be on a team that is expected to win a championship? Obviously, we know what, you know, their coaching staff's like and, you know, the pedigree or players that they have. I mean, it's the perfect scenario for her to really, you know, be in the driver's seat in this league for like the next 10 to 12 years. And then, when I see Paige, I just see, I see everything with Paige, you know. A lot of times you have the player that can control the locker room, necessarily doesn't have the talent and, you know, have that, that weight when they say things to their teammates. She has both. I mean, she walks into a room and everything just changes. Everything just changes when Paige is in the room. And you can see it with her team. I think that's a dangerous first round team. Oh, I watch the game when they beat Indiana like 10 days ago or whatever. And they just, both guards were going, they're reek I got really going. Yeah. That's kind of a nightmare matchup. It reminds me of in the mid 90s, in the playoffs, want to be best of five. And you could just go against the wrong, you play like the sons and all of a sudden, you're down to one in a series because two of their guards got hot. But I wouldn't want to play them. And I gotta say, I really like the way Indiana is playing too. I mean, felt like, felt like the, all the outside stuff was suffocating, especially Caitlyn. Just didn't seem like she was having fun playing basketball. And then the last, last month or so, I keep saying they remind me of those Nash sunsteens where they just go, go, go. Everything's built around her. They have two awesome guards. I don't know who's going to win the title, honestly. I don't know, but if if Caitlyn and Kelsey keep playing like this, they're going to win. going to be the hardest out in the playoffs. I mean, they're going to be so hard to guard in the playoffs. I mean, what Kaelin doing is right now is just under her, it's kind of ridiculous when you think about what she's doing. But you know, I've always said this about her and I've always admired this about her. And you alluded to it, there's just so much stuff around her. But the minute she walks onto the court, it all goes away for her, you know? It kind of all goes away and there's a different thing that drives her on the court. I'm not sure what it is. But man, when she gets going and the numbers that she's putting up and doing it in winning, right? Like that's the whole point is to do it to make your team better. And she doesn't have her single night. You know, and then and now that we get to watch them all play on the national team. So it'll be fun. All right, so you're not going to believe it, but I didn't agree with the World Championships decision either. I thought they had that you have so much momentum from the season you're just stopping. Should I call Sue? Should I tell Sue? Does she agree? Well, I mean, it's funny. We've never we've never we've never had a break for World Championships. It's only been for Olympics. This is the first time that I know this is the first time we've ever done it. I know it's, you know, but that's the life, you know, the W and B is always lived. We've always had to live in these, you know, different worlds where other things take precedent. People miss training camp. We got to stop league for the Olympics. And now it's happening again for Fiba. You know, I think we're coming to a point where the W may will finally take priority. And, you know, hopefully soon. But yeah, I hate the break. It's the worst, you know, it's terrible. It's terrible for the teams that come back and don't have shit to play for. And it's terrible for teams who are trying to get to the third to the fourth seed, you know? Like, it's just it's it's tough all around. It's kind of something we've always done. And, you know, as as a player for a long time, you kind of just whatever jersey you put on, that's what you do. You can immerse yourself for that two, three weeks with USA basketball. And then the minute you get back to, you know, Vegas, Indiana, Dallas, Phoenix, put that jersey back on and you give it a go. I don't love it. I think certain teams had momentum. Certain teams were losing momentum. I don't know because there's a little rock paper scissors with the league this year. It's been thrown to gamble on actually. But, you know, like Golden State's like the defensive team. Right. Vegas has Asia, but the guards a little week. Indiana's super fun up and down to play. Dallas is like the wild card. And kind of who plays who? And then the Liberty, I don't. Well, they've been so banged up all year. I don't know what to make of them. Well, I mean, who would want them to play them as at the eighth seed? That's just kind of what you just talked about. That's the crap shoot too. You play, you play New York as the eighth seed. I mean, what a reward for being the one seed. Can we talk about this, Asia Wilson thing really quickly? I don't like it because you were my goat. But if she wins five straight MVP's, I don't know what to do with this information now. I mean, you do what you do with it. I mean, that to be MVP five times. That's unbelievable. Nobody does that. No one does it. I mean, who did it? Did Dreamy have five? No, nobody in the NBA has done this. Not one not one NBA player. No NFL players. Nobody nobody does this. I mean, how could you not say she's the goat if she wins five in a row? I mean, even with four in a row, it's kind of like no one's ever done that either of the WBA. And to do that and win, you know, I think that's been the most impressive thing is she's carried. Obviously early, they were just loaded. They had just tremendous young talent. And now, you know, she's had to carry a big load of it. And but the thing with Asia that's so impressive, I've never seen a player. And I'm always, I always have these deep conversations with other basketball minds that I trust. And I'm like, you are who you are. There's not a lot of players that, you know, I met earlier on in my career that just became a great passer, a great decision maker or a great shooter. Yeah, you can improve a little bit, but usually who you are is who you are. When I saw Asia in college, I would have never thought she would have got to this point, to be honest. And that's just a credit to her being in the gym. You know, people always say, well, you know, doing the summer, I want to add this. She actually did it every summer. Every off season, she's added something. That's really hard to do. And when people are like, oh, she could do this, this or this. And they guess wrong every time. And should you see the gross by them or should so them or just gets whatever shot she wants every single time. Well, when I say someone's going to average 30 or maybe 35, it's going to be her. I mean, no, I literally she is a match up nightmare for every single team. There's maybe like two or three players in the whole league that could, you know, make it tough for her. Yeah, I don't even know is it a smaller person who's like physical? Is it somebody with more size? So she can't I don't even know what the answer is. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's multiple, you know, coaches love that. We can't give them a steady diet. I don't know. I would try to run them up and down and get in a shoot out with them. It would be my move. Well, you know, and a lot of times when you're the best player, you usually play usually guard the shittiest player on other teams. So, you know, it's like you get her in foul trouble either. So you think it sounds like you think Minnesota is going to win. I mean, Minnesota is strong. If he comes back from this real championship at the level that she's used to playing, which is pretty much unstoppable on the court with her and Miles and the way Caleb writes you to the ball. I mean, that's a tough, tough team to beat. And I was judge it. Yeah, I was judge it by the shots in the last four minutes. Do I like the shots you're getting? I was just what I always do with the NBA. I was like their shots. I was feel like they have all these options late. And if worse comes to worse, Miles will just go by somebody and create something. Well, I mean, we always said there's nothing like having shooting and passing on the court. You know, if you have an abundance of that, you can run whatever play you damn want. Because the game of basketball, all it's about is getting the advantage. Like you said, you just need an advantage somewhere to create. And a lot of teams don't have a lot of those players. So the offense gets really hard and, you know, I mean, we see that with the NBA where, you know, there's teams that just can't get good shots at any of the games. All right, so you're in this Yukon documentary that Apple did. And Gino is a big piece of it. Polarizing guy. If you're just watching from afar, it's very easy to come to the conclusion. I don't like that guy because it's annoying. Yeah, everybody that plays for him loves him and defends him. Like they would like their uncle or their dad or whatever. So make the Gino defense for me. It's funny because I watched the documentary obviously. And I wasn't sure because you know, sometimes when you watch things, you don't always get the full story and in a documentary, you can't always tell the full story. You only have a certain amount. And it's funny because I watch them and I like them even more. So that makes me a little bit of a psycho. He's, he's a mastermind bill. He doesn't have to say one, I mean, if you think about the three hours of the documentary, how much basketball did they talk? Not a lot, right? It's not like they were breaking down plays in like late game, you know, scenarios. I mean, this man just knows how to get you to do things that a normal person wouldn't do. And everyone stays loyal to him after. No matter what happened. And it's funny because there's people on the documentary that didn't have a great relationship with him, you know, throughout those four years. And to be honest, the first two and a half years, I mean, we would just go at it. He was just, but it's all the time because he just will not, he will, he will press you until there's nothing left. And then you have to build yourself back up. And then you have to, you had to figure out if you really want to be here and if you really want to do it. And he was like that from day one to the last day. I was at Connecticut. There was a documentary about Tennessee and Pat Summit in the early 2000s. I want to say, I think it was on HBO. It was a big template for what we wanted to do for 30 for 30 because it was like, we're going in. You're going to learn about Pat Summit in this team. And it was so riveting, but my big takeaway, I still, I don't know even know if it's on line anymore. It was just how intense it was day to day. With her and the players and the emotions and the games to it and people come in there like sobbing. It was like game 16 of a season, like six, six girls sobbing around the lockers. And she would come in and and it was just fascinating to watch somebody with that much control over their universe. And it seems like he's in the same way. Oh, absolutely. I remember watching that one actually. Remember she, she iced her ankle for like 48 hours because she pulled the ankle. Oh, she's left in the locker room. Yeah, yeah, it was the first time. I ever saw anything like that. We're like, holy shit. Yeah, they weren't. They weren't. There's a time in your life. I think where you can handle that. And it's definitely when you're in college. Right. You know, you're young and dumb. When you're young and dumb and you don't know any better and you're searching for things that you can hold on to to make it to make you a better player. Better teammate or whatever it may be. But I think those days are over. I don't think you can do that anymore. So it means even more like I think when you watch a documentary like that. You're watching something that I don't think you can do anymore. It doesn't exist anymore. I mean, you definitely can't do it to the pros. Right. Like can even can even like do 10% of that anymore. Your guys are making 30, 40, 50, 60 million a year in the moment they're unhappy. They could just push the way out. Get out. Get out. That's why we have so much coaching of people every year in the NBA. I think Spulsters the oldest Spulsters. I think they all this coach now. The longest tenured. Yeah. Curse second and Joe Missoula might be in the top five. And it's it's really funny because you you actually before you go there. He walks into your living room and he tells you exactly what he's going to do. And you're kind of like, okay, that sounds good, which sounds terrible if you really think about it, you know, and then you get there and it's, you know, it's bootcamp. It's hard. Everything's hard. Every single time you walk into the gym, it is mentally and physically taxing. There was no day where you would walk in and you would let your guard down. You were always in fight or flight. Like, that was just, that was the type of environment that he created. Does it bother you that you con women's basketball just in general is regarded in America the same way kind of the Duke men's team has become. We're like the team people root against because you've had so much success. That's just you're a lot now. You're the Yankees, you're Duke basketball. Like, you're the Patriots of Bell Check. You're just in that mix now. I mean, I guess that's what happens when you win a lot. Yeah. You know, everyone loves the, the underdog story. So the person that wins all the time. And then it's like, this is fair for the sport is parody bet. No one ever liked basketball when there was parody. I liked basketball when it was Duke when it was Yukon when it was the bulls, you know, when it was the Patriots when it was the Lakers in the 2000s. That's when I love sport the most, you know, the Yankees when you have these dominant amazing teams. And it's people, I think people take for granted how hard it is to do that. How hard is to get all those players on the same page? I mean, we've seen all these super teams that just explode because it takes a certain character of certain personality, certain coach. And you don't have to be best friends either, right? Well, check where six super balls together that it's okay that they're not going to go vacationing in Lake Tahoe. Well, I think the whole being friends with your coach thing is a crock of shit. I think that's what's made, you know, the environment of coaching and players these days. So up and down, you want to be my friend. You want to be the, like, I don't need a friend. I need a coach. No, I have friends. I have friends. I have friends like go and talk to and talk shit with like that was the one thing with the coaches that I played for that always brought out the best in me. We had a personal relationship, but we weren't friends. They weren't worried about my well-being, you know, every single day. I mean, that was the beauty of coach West that coach West said would walk into practice. We practiced for two hours, and then we wouldn't see him ever again. We would, we would get on the plane together. We'd get off the plane, and then we would never see him again until shoot around. You know, there wasn't this. Let's go get coffee. Let's go talk about the game plan. There was a separation of church and state. I wonder like this is part of the social media era and just in general well-being and all the mental health stuff that's happened over the last 10 years and awareness for all that and just coaches screaming at players. Just doesn't seem like it fits in anymore. Well, I mean, you know, back then you just walk into the gym and you practice now, you know, the last two or three years in the WBA, you know, the coach there. So D how do you feel from a skeletal one to 10? I'm like, what the fuck? I'm fucking 42. I feel like shit. Leave me alone. Get leave me alone. Talk about, you know, talk about my feelings and it's it's almost been it's almost worse because all they do is talk about the feelings that they do have. You know, it's like more feelings and more all these feelings and, you know, I've always been, you know, I'm, you know, old Italian family just shut up and do the work. You'll figure the feelings out later like who's, you know, and I don't think you could do that anymore because, you know, once you let the genius of the bottle can put her back in. What do you do competitively now to get your fix? So I love something tennis and golf or my like go to's like love tennis. I played tennis as a little kid and I always loved it. And then I just, you know, basketball gone the way of that. And then, um, and then I love the golf. It's the, the two things I really do enjoy tennis doubles or singles singles singles singles. You're gonna head to head. I mean, I don't need, you know, like I played a team sport for a long time. I just wanted to be. I don't want to worry about someone else's feelings. Forehand or backhand. Forehand backhand. Forehand. So you're loading up on the forehead western forehand grip and I just let it go. Actually, yeah. I wish there was like a celebrity tennis tournament. I bet, I bet it would be fun to watch you in that. I think the US open John Macro does one, um, every year. I'm still not where I want to be to play in it. Kind of like in golf where they go to Lake Tahoe and getting there. All right, Dan and Terraci. A pleasure, as always, um, will you come back during the playoffs? Always. Let's do it. All right, you're gonna watch, right? You know, that's sort of, you know what happens when you retire, Bill, it's like you, you can't, all you, you watch the game and all I see is mistakes. Oh, you become one of those people. Yeah, I know. I know. That's why I like to watch tennis and soccer because I can watch as a fan. I'm still in that threshold where I watch it. And I'm still watching players. I played against. Another year for you, I'll come on with you, Bill. Oh, all right. Good to see you. A pleasure as always. Thanks. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Todd and Diana and Gahau and Eduardo. Don't forget rewatchables. Aliens is up. And I'm going to be back on my podcast on Thursday, hopefully with a special guest who comes once a year, I'm going to keep my fingers crossed. We'll see. We'll see if it happens. Anyway, see you Thursday. I'm going to see them on the way. I don't have. Must be 21 plus and president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and president D.C. Kentucky or Wyoming game prom called 100 gamble or 1 800 by reset call 888 797777 or visit CC PG dot org slash chat or MD gambling help dot org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gambling helpline m a dot org or call 803 to 750 for 24 seven sport Massachusetts or call 877 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877 777 07 867