Mahershala Ali navigates faith, fatherhood and violence in his new thriller + Sally Rooney's UK book ban

In 2002, Ryan Wedding was an Olympic snowboarder at the top of his game. Ryan's style is really gunned and go. And in less than a minute, it slipped away. But he continued to chase the high. Ryan James Wedding. He controls one of the most violent drug trafficking organizations in this world. I'm Michelle Shepard and from CBC Podcasts and the Toronto Star, the most wanted Olympian. Available now. This is a CBC podcast. So Maharshal Ali is back with a new movie. It's called Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother. This is a pulpy assassin thriller that has since sparked conversations around religion and black single fatherhood and violence as a form of resistance. I'm Rads. I'm a play sitting in for Elimine. I've got my mood. This is Cabotian. I've got Shamir, Ibrahim and Rania Elmoujimar here to get into this with me. Welcome to the show, y'all. Hey, good to be here. Good to have you guys. Listen, I am so excited to unpack this because this is one of my favorite movies of the Toronto Film Festival. And of course, there is so much to unpack, yeah. So I mean, before we get into the, then let's start with this. My wife passed away and sees us breastfed and she's allergic to farming. I'm sorry, but I need a prescription. What are we doing? It's easy fear. That's what we call. Well, they, we have a problem. You know what I need you to do. Did you see your brother? No, I just saw some perfume. So that was a bit of a trailer for Your Mother, Your Mother. Your mother is starring Mahershala Ali Shamira for those who haven't seen the film. Can you unpack the premise for us? Sure. I think that the three lion stinger people have been giving is Muslim, John Wick, right? But the general premise is, you know, a religious hitman's wife has passed and it's his duty to now take care of his children. And really we're watching like this capsule where he's trying the best to get their youngest infant some breast milk. And as you can imagine, plenty of shenanigans go on along the way that really challenges notion of a faith and piety and family obligations. And you know, it's a beautiful journey to see on screen. And I'm right there with you. It's one of my favorite films of the year. Yeah. I mean, and I love how like you just broad stroked all of these things that individually have to be so unpacked. Ronnie, Ronnie, over to you, I just want to acknowledge that you are having a, you know, you're trying to stay on with us while you're experiencing a power outage. So thank you for sticking through this. But I mean, so getting into the movie, how did you, how did you enjoy the way this movie, like what kind of, the kind of story this movie is trying to tell? Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think there was so much nostalgia in that film for me as like a black Muslim, you know, like the, the house of the, the main character and his deceased wife, like Latif from Khadija's house is so nostalgic and familiar, I grew up in a house very much like that one, the, the black messages are very familiar to me too as a black Muslim woman. And, you know, there's so much in it that feels so relatable and close despite kind of the absurdity of the bigger picture, which is that, you know, the grief and the crisis of faith and the way finding in the world after you lose somebody so important to you and trying to figure out who you are in relation to the big picture. So to me, there was so much to like about the film and, and so much to be curious and to ask questions about and so much to kind of turn your head at a little bit. Yeah. I appreciate all that. And look, I mean, I feel like we do also need to kind of set up some backstory here because I do think it's relevant because there, I mean, you know, there's a reason I think that we haven't seen much of a commercially in terms of proper leading roles over the past few years. And so that, maybe that has something to do with the fact that he has for the past several years, ever since winning his second Oscar for Green Book, been tied up to Marvel because he was supposed to play Blade in the Marvel reboot for Blade. And the director who was supposed to direct that Marvel reboot was Bassam Tariq, who was the director of this movie, your mother, your mother, your mother. So after Blade had been delayed and then ultimately shelved, but Bassam Tariq, he went over to this movie to making your mother, your mother, your mother. He brought over Mahershal Ali to this movie and Mahershal Ali is bringing over some of that fight choreography and training to this movie. So that's all part of the lore that goes into this movie. So Samira, I mean, with all of that said, what do you think, what do you make of Mahershal Ali's performance in your mother, your mother, your mother? I mean, I think it's a phenomenal performance. In fact, I honestly think it's a boon for all of us that Marvel kind of crapped the bed so poorly, right? You know, it allowed us the opportunity to get a film that was so lived in an empathetic, you know, one of the things that really stands out to me about Mahershal's performance and all the performances on screen, including some of the young actors, is that the actual script is actually pretty light on dialogue. Some of the most powerful things that happen on camera are those really silent moments with really well executed camera shots where you can kind of see Mahershal's guilt play out on the screen as someone who is kind of grappling with the hypocrisies of being someone who is living such a violent life, but still feels duty bound to a code of honor that he clearly has complicated feelings around. And so I think Mahershal in all of his characters has always been remarkably adept at showing depth and complexity to something that can be seen as very simple and obvious. And this is just another example of him doing that to an experience that like frankly does not get much attention, which is like the uniqueness and of being a black Muslim in the West and navigating that identity on multiple levels. And it is a performance that is carrying so many different elements in a movie that has all these different genres and he really holds all that together. I do want to take a listen to some of his performance, so I want to take a listen to a scene. Here's an exchange between Mahershal, Lee's character Latif and Abdul, who is a respected Iman played by John Carlo Esposito. So that was a clip from your mother, your mother, your mother, starting Mahershal Ali and John Carlo Esposito, who is of course an icon. Before we get into what they're discussing there, we will get to that in a minute. I do want to ask you, Rania, are there any other characters in this movie that really personally resonated with you? Yeah, most definitely for me, Fatih has character played by Adia was, she was the most nuanced, she has such a gut-wrenching performance, I really felt for her at every turn. She was complex, multifaceted and then there's not a whole lot of that from women in this film. So to me, I found myself being really drawn to her character for that reason. And also, I feel like there's a lot of elder daughters and first born daughters in Muslim families who look at the character and just really feel like, I know that girl or I am that girl. I think she did such a phenomenal job holding on to how much grief there might be for somebody who's experiencing that and then just anger, tension, also her own crisis of faith, which I think was beautifully written and really well embodied by her, I thought her performance was incredible. Yeah, I mean, I 100% agree and going back to something Shamirah said earlier, I mean this is a movie where there's not a lot of dialogue and she says so much in her silence. So I think she's kind of the heart of the movie. Shamirah, I do want to get into some of the big themes that this film is grappling with specifically how it's grappling with religion and particularly Islam and Christianity and the degree to which these characters use their faith to justify their actions, including violence and murder. How did you feel about the way your mother, your mother, grapples with those particular themes? Yeah, you know, I was struck back when I was watching this, I've watched it twice by the way and I remember I think it was the second season of Ramir Maharsali also has a guest one on that show and he plays a shake in that character and in that character, he has this kind of really brilliant explanation of Islam in practice and observation where she kind of explains like you have an orange and the outside, the rigid, you know, outside allows you to enjoy the kind of contradictions of the juicy center and get the delights of faith. And I think that that sort of theme really adheres to like how the film explores the nuances of what it really means to like try to live as pie as of a life as you can while still grappling with the ways that the world upsets you and distorts your understanding of what is right and wrong. And I think while it doesn't shy away from the fact that what these characters are doing is brutal and violent and, you know, obviously against what they claim to be their moral center, it does offer empathy to the fact of like, we're in a really brutal unforgiving world and when you're trying to real with those realities, sometimes you struggle with the best way to mix your faith and how you can actually honor that truth, right? And I think that that is a level of grace that is really afforded Islamic stories. I can sometimes be really focused on representation. making sure we don't disservice the faith while, you know, ignoring the humanity that actually engages with these characters. - Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think that's, I mean, at the core, this movie is celebrating the beauty of that struggle to reconcile your faith with the modern world and the world around you. And speaking to these themes, I mean, like, I wanna play a clip, a bit of an interview with Mahershal Ali, Mahershal Ali did this interview with Q host, the Tom Power, and they were discussing the way religion and faith and violence intersect in this film. So here's what Mahershal Ali had to say about his character, Latif's use of violence in your mother, your mother, your mother. - Speaking specifically to Latif, he feels very justified in the things that he is doing. That is response to this man killing a holy man and going, that can't be allowed. So he in that way has to, believes he has to step in and met out a certain degree of justice so that he stops that. He has to meet violence with violence in order to create some sort of aspect of peace. - So Rania, what do you make of what Mahershal Ali is saying there? - I think, you know, the thing for me about violence is throughout this film, there are instances that I would call violence that maybe other people wouldn't think of as violence, particularly when Latif's character goes to get milk from the breast milk bank and has to be sort of put through the ringer of the violence of the bureaucracy. Yes, you need a prescription. You gotta be here by five, if you're not here by five, we won't be open till Monday. And so you have this monopoly on violence, like who gets to hold it, who gets to wield it in justifiable ways. And that's causing like suffering. There's an infant who is starved at the end of this, right? So for me, I think it is important for us to have really nuanced conversations about violence, but also to see how like the very patriarchal characters in this film, not only Latif, but also the reverence character, they feel anointed and appointed by God to dole out punishment in the ways that they see as fit or justified. And what I think is very interesting is that like Islam, Islam's like religious legal systems have conditions for how violence can be utilized. And they're not these particular conditions, right? Which I think is interesting, right? Is that like people often will make rules that apply only to themselves and feel justified in doing out that violence. Did I feel like a satisfaction at the retribution that Latif know about? Absolutely. I think it scratches something for some of us who are on the receiving end of violence repeatedly and rarely get to decide what justice looks like on our own terms, whether it is justice or not, I think is a whole other conversation. But I think it's important for people to like recognize that whether it's like micro or like really over violence, a lot of us use the same logic in our day-to-day lives that we feel justified at the harm that we might dish out to ourselves and to other people. And so, you know, I resonate with what he's saying, but I also think it's important for people, especially, who are outsiders to Islam looking into this, to recognize that this is like a very patriarchal response to a situation and that it's using religion much in the same way that the reference character is. Well, you know, it's interesting to me how in depth you're going into in terms of like the faith and the contradictions there. And Shamir, I just wanted to ask you, I mean, in terms of like, you know, what this movie is doing with faith and how it's exploring that, are there any places that this movie didn't go or maybe didn't go far enough that you wish it had? - Yeah, you know, I think the film did interesting things with kind of doing quick nods at, you know, if you know, you know, sort of moments for people who are adherents to the faith, right? So, for example, of course, like the kind of person who actually employs Latif and his nephew and sort of their elicit business, it kind of is a quick nod to like some of the more elicit things that are known about like in Dubai and Emirati communities with people with money, right? And sort of making a quick nod to that. Or even like, at the opening of the film, you have Latif refusing to prostrate, which is a position in prayer called Sujood and they actually come around and close that loop at the end of the film with him choosing to prostrate which kind of indicates his journey with faith. But to Ronnie's point, I do think some of the subtext that was kind of ignored was sort of the way that the woman, despite the film being called your mother, your mother, your mother, were sort of pushed to the background, right? Latif's wife, Kadija, who in, you know, Islamic history is actually quite revered for being Muhammad's first wife, you know, actually doesn't become an actual character. She's sort of a ethereal figure who influences the movie but is not actually embodied in any real way, right? The people who help Latif get breast milk, the woman at the masjid, the wife of the Sheikh or the Imam, right? Kind of don't really have full characterizations, although they are there to make sure that, you know, Latif meets the duty. And so even though it's rooted in a hadith that says, you know, your mother, your mother, your mother and then your father to indicate the importance of women, the film actually does kind of shift Muslim women to the background of the score, which is definitely worth noting. - Yeah, I mean, definitely worth discussing that as the way they're the function of a structuring absence in this movie. - Absolutely. - This is all the time we have, and I swear we could probably talk a whole hour around this movie 'cause there's so much to talk about. But that's all the time we have, but thank you both so much for being here. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you for having us. - Shamira Ibrahim is a Canadian-born culture critic based in New York, and Rania El Mujamar is an artist and organizer based in Toronto. Your mother, your mother, your mother is out in Toronto theaters now. - In 2002, Ryan Wedding was an Olympic snowboarder at the top of his game. - Ryan's style is really gunnied and gold. - Ryan James Wedding. He controls one of the most violent, drug trafficking organizations in this world. - I'm Michelle Shepard, and from CBC podcasts and the Toronto Star, the most wanted Olympian, available now. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I'm Rads, I'm a place that I get for Aluminum Doth Mahmoud, this is Cabotian. So Irish novelist Sally Rooney often described as the voice of her generation. Her books, like normal people and conversations with friends, have become these touchstones for understanding millennials. And she's also an outspoken supporter of Palestine. She's last just last year pledged to donate proceeds from her book sales to a pro-Palestinian group that's been banned by the British government for being what it calls a terrorist organization. That now means if Rooney travels to the UK, she could be arrested. And it's also why her publisher can't sell new copies of her books in Britain. IFA Berry is here to get into why Sally Rooney is putting so much on the line and how people are reacting. IFA, welcome to the show. - Thank you so much. - Thank you for being here. So before we get into the latest news, I mean, let's start with a bit of context, right? Can you fill us in on how Sally Rooney, like what her track record is in terms of Palestinian causes? - Yeah, she's someone who's always been super outspoken about her politics. I mean, she's someone who from very early days said she was a Marxist. So she's always laid out her politics there. And she has spoken out about Palestine. A number of times she's spoken about it in speeches. She's also a columnist. She writes columns and she's written about Gaza in particular in her columns. So she's someone who has this strong track record of speaking out. She has a background in debating. So she's someone who uses her words really, really well. She was a champion debater when she was younger before she became a novelist. So in Ireland, we're very familiar with her as someone who speaks out about international events. So what you were saying about Palestine action, she wrote a column for the Irish Times, which is a major newspaper here in Ireland last year. Where she said she supported Palestine action. It was after it was prescribed as a terrorist organization in the UK. And she said she wanted to write about to unit pleasure support. And that also she would be pledging some for royalties towards supporting Palestine action. And that obviously is a massive thing to do because while it isn't a terror organization here in the public of Ireland, in the United Kingdom, it is. And that's a very big market for her. And she'd also be traveling over there quite a bit too. So it was a huge moment for her. Mm hmm. Well, and then what has she said about the risks that she was taking? So it is a big risk. And she knows herself. She's written about this. She actually gave in kind of a witness statement to an appeal against that prescription. And she's written about this too, where she said she was at risk potentially of being arrested. Because if she was seen as using royalties to fund a terror organization, that obviously could be a criminal offense. So there's a risk there in terms of arrest. And that actually came to the point where she was awarded an award in the UK. The Sky Arts Award for her writing. And she didn't actually turn up. She shouldn't travel over from Ireland to the UK. There's a speech right out there. I think my publisher at the time. And they said that she did that because she didn't know basically if she'd be arrested or not. And she also spoke up until even before last week when this kind of latest news broke. She did talk about how she didn't know what it would mean for her books and whether or not she would be able to keep selling those in the UK. So I think to go back even to that debating past, she knows the consequences of her actions. And she knew that by pledging in a national newspaper the support for a Palestinian action, there could be consequences. But I think she's also using it to draw attention to that particular law and the fact that a number of high profile legal experts and other commentators have Described it as an overreach by the British government in terms of terming policy and action the terror group It's a direct action group and in its words So she's using her position to power it to draw attention to that as well as potentially her own livelihood being impacted by it too Mm-hmm And you said there that she was aware that it could mean that her publisher couldn't sell the books in in the UK So I mean ultimately like why did the publisher decide that they can't they have to stop selling new copies of her books? So last week they brought out a statement and she also brought out a statement too and Faber is her publisher. They're a really long-standing hugely important Company in the publishing world and from the sounds of what they're saying in the statement There's been a lot of talk and conversations going on between them and Sally over the last a number of months And they decided that they couldn't kind of in their own good conscience continue to distribute her books in the UK Because they wouldn't be able to actually give her the royalties because potentially the royalties could be seen as being used towards funding Palestine action which again is a terror group under the law in the UK So you can see that there could be ramifications legally for both Faber and for Sally ruining herself So the decision was okay, we won't actually Distribute any more of her books because then that means that we won't be in a situation where we can't actually pay her any money Which they said would be an unconscionable thing to do so what they did was it wasn't that they pulled all the books off the shelves But they said we won't send out any more new books to any of the book shops in the UK So what's out there you're going to have to buy that now and so that is you know hugely impactful situation for her It kind of means her books are in a very shadowy unusual place in the UK You don't see these sort of things happening very often at all these days and with authors work Yeah, I mean because I understand so the UK of course has a massive market as you said for Sally But the publishing industry there is also like integrated with the public Irish publishing industry So I mean what like what is actually at stake then with that in mind for Sally Rooney like like what's the potential cost to her if these books aren't sold in the UK? So overall she is sold a whopping six million copies of her books around the world Which is incredible. I mean she's just like is a voice of a generation She's somebody who sells books like nobody else and she sold around a third of those books in the UK So as soon as her books come out this tens of thousands of copies are sold basically overnight It's a massive massive readership for her there And so she is kind of letting all the potential at the moment right now of selling continuing to sell her books there And also if she brought out a book tomorrow, which she isn't there would be the risk there Of course that she'd be missing out in those massive sales. So she knows she's going to be impacted in in that kind of by that readership Or in that market in the UK. Thankfully she doesn't have a brand new book So the fact that the books have already been out for a few years means that the money kind of won't be as bad There's also potentially the impact on any future adaptations of her work as well because normal people and conversations with friends have been on the TV as well here and globally So she is taking a financial risk with that but that said people have actually from the UK been buying out the books There's been a number of bookshops that said they've been sold out and Irish bookshops have said that Manny customers from the UK and Britain have actually been buying from the Irish shops here and buying online from them So people are showing their support even if they can't walk into a shop in the UK But it is a significant thing to be doing to not be able to sell her books there Well what is the reaction then been to all of this in Ireland and in contrast to that in the UK? It's really interesting because in Ireland people are hugely proud of her Like 99.9% of the commentary has been massively supportive of her People really look up to her. She's very much a shining light in the literary world and famous authors like column to be in have been pledging their support for her If you go to the UK, the conservative and right-leaning press have not been so kind to her There's some really bad headlines that have been written about her over the last week or so Can I call one? I think it's the telegraph that said Sally Rooney is a posturing in Great I mean that's Lionel Shriver the author who wrote that which is incredible that somebody would actually say that about her There is that kind of negative commentary from some of the the right-leaning press there or the conservative press there And some people I think their criticism is very gendered. They see a young woman who writes about young women's lives If you write about relationships and they think what is she doing commenting on Palestine And I don't think they've been paying any attention to any of her interviews, any of her public appearances Or indeed the details of her books if they actually think that about her Because she's always shown us that she's a very principled woman who's aware of politics And here in Ireland that's why we're really proud of her that she stands up for what she believes in And she doesn't really do that much media when she does like she makes a count like now So if I mean look there's so many artists who have been signing petitions or posting on social media but there stands up Palestine What makes Sally Rooney stand apart? I think what's interesting about her is that she's gone maybe a step further than other people Because she wrote that column supporting Palestine action when she knew that Palestine action had been prescribed So she's she kind of there's a lot of artists that have you know displayed banners talked in the kind of international stages about Gaza and particularly about Palestine But pledging the support to Palestine action knowing that she could legally be impacted by it And saying that she was going to pledge some of her royalties towards that group given the situation Is that kind of step further? And again like it's something with Sally Rooney that you can tell that She's not being reactionary or doing something for attention or doing it to that this fall I will be on her It's saying okay I have this position of power I'm making a lot of money out of my books I don't like what's going on in this political situation I want to support people and I'm willing to take the consequences of that So I think that's why people here in Ireland feel that she's a very principled person and that we're proud of her Because she hasn't just kind of said oh yeah I support xyz She said I'm actually going to put my money towards this knowing that there could be a legal consequence for me So that feels it in its own way quite kind of radical for an artist to do that Yeah and I think it's interesting in the announcement in the op-ed that she published She said that this can't be published in the UK because it's illegal And the whole op-ed was mostly about Palestine action What they do not necessarily about the money aspect of it But also I mean it's hard not to notice that like there are a number of Irish artists who have taken similar positions and you know Ireland itself has said like they wouldn't participate in Eurovision Because of Israel's participation Can you break down why Irish artists seem to be so aligned with the Palestinian cause? I think there's a big history in Ireland of artists using their position of power to speak out about issues that they feel strongly about You know if you look back through musical history there is people who like Kristi Moore For example who'd be very famous Irish musician who would have written about some about kind of social issues And there's that sense of okay we're going to use our position to speak out We're going to use this global stage that we might be on to speak out And also that it's like incumbent on us to do that Like we're a really small country there's what like four and a half to five million people living here But we have a pretty intense history like we're a pretty new republic We're a post-colonial country We're still dealing with kind of the impact and the intergenerational impact of that We had the troubles up in Northern Ireland And the peace process for that only took place really within I think Sally Rooney's lifetime And you know in her early years That's something we're still also grappling with here and kind of you looking at the legacy of that And I think that that means that a lot of artists like say kneecap for example we were from the north Are politicized from a young age in the sense that they're aware of their place in the world and aware of the importance of speaking out And I think Irish people look at Palestine and they see parallels you know they see colonialism We understand things like partition because we have partition on our very island And I think that that brings a sense of solidarity and empathy And we have that empathy across the world like one example that I would give quickly is that And Sally Rooney really has spoken about this herself It's that during apartheid a number of very young women who were working for a grocery store chain called Dunstores Went on strike because they're reprimanded for not selling grapefruits because Have a kind of a ban from their union on selling them because they were South Africa from South Africa And those strikers went on strike for three years and it was part of a really strong movement against apartheid Like did that solve apartheid? No, but did it show Irish solidarity? Yes and those women and those Dunstores strikers are still held up as examples here Of using your position to do what you can in a situation when you feel like something is wrong So I think that that history is really carried forward by C-Mash by Fontaine's DC You know by kneecap and by Sally Rooney and so many other artists And it's something we hold in this country I think very dear to us of using using our position well when we are when we do have a global stage or a global listenership Well if I mean it's a very compelling story and we're going to keep following it But thank you so much for breaking it down for us Thanks much for having me on to talk about it Eva Berry is a freelance culture writer, she is in Dublin, Ireland And that's it for commotion today I'm Rads, I'm a place sitting in for Ellen Meenap Dothma Mood, and we'll see you tomorrow For more CBC podcasts go to cbc.ca/podcasts