Lowell Bander @ Seattle Climate Innovation Hub

[Music] Welcome to the 90 podcast. For each episode, we have an unfulfilled conversation with a human who has dedicated themselves to building a livable future. I'm your host, Lowel Bander, general manager of 90 Seattle and co-founder of the Seattle Climate Innovation Hub. A joint venture between 90, the University of Washington, the City of Seattle, and virtually. In this episode, we flip the script and I, I'm the Esfilar de Your Producer, interviews Lowel Bander, GM of the Climate Innovation Hub, and my co-producer on this podcast. And we talk about their observations on this climate community that they've built and have been a part of here in Seattle, and their vision and dream for the future of this community. Stay tuned to learn more. [Music] Yeah, and it depends on what your ultimate goal is. Like my ultimate goal is, I want to have tons of friends who give a shit about the shit that I give a shit about and are doing something about it. And so, I don't want it to be needlessly restricted. And there are really a number of times when there's been events here that someone has said, "Oh, look, what should the event cap be?" Like, I don't know what the fuck who cares. And obviously, if you're having like a roundtable of like eight people, the kind of conversation you're gonna have is gonna be very different than if you had 100 people. But if it's a panel, then it's already a unidirectional situation. And then, if you figure the most positive you get is by having as many atoms in the room as possible. Maybe it doesn't look like a panel. I would prefer that. Yeah, I'm gonna have to work that out. Okay, so no panel, that's good feedback. I mean, I don't want, this is a very low old manic ADHD thing, but sitting in the same room with someone to talk is a. That's the way it's time. that's the way it's time. Exactly, dude. I could listen to a podcast if I wanted to. I don't know why I'm here sitting. I could be like doing the dishes or something. Yeah. Why did you do this podcast in the first place? Um. Some combination of a number of people very kindly shared with me that they think I have a voice for radio. And that seemed kind. I thought that's a diss. That means you're ugly in the face. No, if you have a face for radio. Oh, okay. That's a diss. Sorry. I've read an email exchange between my bosses that had a note. It was like, took me a second. I was like, "I thought you made an error." Oh, no, you're just ducking on this other person. Okay. Um. So that seemed like a thing to lean into. And one of the questions, recurring questions I have for myself, is in what ways am I getting in my own way? And so, with this being an example, I think I have a hesitancy towards taking up space. Mm-hmm. And so I was averse to having a space where I am talking and people are listening to me. But I also think it's a fun opportunity to try something new. And I knew that it was something that I guess you would express interest in. And so that made it appealing. I remember you did a poll on LinkedIn as well to see if the community would have an appetite for something like this. And it seemed like some people did. Exactly, right. I think that's a good way to hype myself up. Sometimes I just like pull the rip cord and like, "Oh, I'll post an event on Luma and then see how many people sign up." And then if people sign up, I guess it's a good idea. Now I need to figure out what the content is. But I get anxious about whether or not. Maybe I'm the only one who wants this, maybe other people don't want this. Why should I do it? I don't currently listen to podcasts. I have certainly for many a time done a lot of 2X or more audiobooks and podcasts. And I now have not listened to a podcast for probably this calendar year. Okay. And so then I also felt weird and that of touch. Like I wouldn't. I'm producing something and then not consuming anything in that genre, which fell odd. Not necessarily bad, but odd. A mentor once said to me that they only spend time consuming content or media that it was produced by people that they know or their friends. What do you think of this? I prefer that, especially because it's a. If you write a piece, I can then hang out with you and talk with you about the piece you wrote. Or if someone in some ivory tower writes a piece, I have no mechanism of interaction and then it falls back to the whole me being the audience of the panel. Like, why on me? There are humans you can talk to. Why would I spend my time consuming content from people where my only option is to be a consumer rather than to discuss it with them and move that relationship forward and use it as an artifact for that investment in a relationship? Yeah. Well, we've spoken to a number of really interesting people on the podcast. What did you notice through this process? What did you observe? What was the expectation versus reality? More words, more words, hard questions. You get the idea, right? What do you think? I think I learned it was okay to ask people harder questions. Sometimes I have a fear of conflict that isn't necessarily even a conscious fear of conflict. And so I will shy away from asking the questions I really want to ask. And this was in exercise, and though there was still work to do, in exercise in becoming confident in being able to ask people questions and then not being offended and finding that as interest. And so that was fun, particularly because the people that we're talking to are working on stuff I care about. And sometimes I'm doing them to service by not asking them the hard questions. I have friends yourself very much included who ask people hard questions, and that gives me a lot of respect for them. And it's something that I try to grow into, because I think it moves things forward rather than just blow and smoke up people's butts, which sounds like a waste of time. Let's do a thought experiment. Let's imagine that like 99% of people in this climate hub, they were predisposed just asking each other very hard, challenging questions. What do you think would result from that? I think it would be different. I imagine you're not alone in feeling this way. I shouldn't take up this space. I shouldn't challenge you in this way. You're the expert of your domain. Yeah, what would it look like if that, if nobody felt that way? I think that would be extremely positive. I think that it also creates a lot of trust. I think if someone is sharing with me honest critiques that I can count on them to be someone who is not pulling their punches and I trust their feedback versus if someone's only ever given me positive feedback. I have a degree of like, come on, I mean, it feels nice, but I'm a little bit skeptical that you're holding something back. They're not saying what they really feel or think. Right. And that perhaps then that critique manifests otherwise. They didn't like the vibe of this one gathering and they just don't show up anymore. And so instead of front loading that conflict by expressing that I don't think the way you ran that discussion was inclusive, they just don't come. And then the community is now left with only the people who were not irked by the lack of inclusivity. And you get this pathological case. So I think that people, it's like a way of I think self-advocating too of like, this is what I thought was missing and trying to understand what your goals are. So I've tried to lean into that more too where I meet someone new and my thing that I try to as quickly drive to is how can I and the community help them and what they're doing. And so that requires understanding what they are doing. And sometimes I've had to ask the question repeatedly, which is often the ones are things like what is your revenue source, who is your customer? Because then I don't know how your thing operates and who you need to talk to. And sometimes the person maybe doesn't know. Like I ask three times and then they're like, yeah, that's actually something we're figuring out. Like, oh, well, you should figure that out because that's going to be able to operate as an entity if you don't have some mechanism for ingesting cash. Is there a capitalist of you? I mean, you can't pay rent and buy food without money in a capitalist society. So I'm ready for communism as soon as we're flipping the switch. But in the interim people need and it could be grant sources or philanthropic capital, but you can't operate land or pay employees, etc. without cash coming from somewhere. Well, we'll get into that later. I want to hear more about what else have you noticed about how this community has evolved? And the types of people that are here now versus the types of people that were there before. And perhaps that can give us some insight into the types of people that will come through this place next. How do you see all that? I enjoy the fractal edges of the community. So when there are, maybe there's like a core of folks that have some like initial best fit with like the product we are offering, which is maybe space to work and connect out of. So if you are an employed remote worker for technology company, then you have enough money to afford membership and your job is one that you can do from a computer and these sorts of things. but then it's skews towards a particular population and so there are folks that may be work in land conservation or government. And so for one reason or another, either the physical space doesn't feel as conducive to them or their government salaries mean that their budgets are much more lean. But there is a small bit of snowballing or flywheeling that can occur when there's enough people of a certain demographic that when the next person of that demographic joins, I can say, oh, these other folks work on the thing that you're really passionate about, do you want to hang out? And then this space becomes that much more meaningful for them. But it's much harder when you're the first person or therefore the only person who works in that domain to be like, oh, well, everyone else is this kind of person. I don't know if I've along here. And so the thing I try to do very quickly is, stay put, I'm going to go grab someone who's like your people and try to make that happen. I think there's a couple dimensions by which it happens. There's both domains of things that people work on. And also probably we get a lot of more legitimacy for like, there's people who are more casual and of the people and naturally find themselves inclined to hang out in a community of folks. And then there's other folks who are more like, is this worth my time? And sometimes that correlates with people who do have more influence power access to capital in some way. And so it helps to have some people who are like, this person is like a senior scientist at this company or the director of this bank. And then when those new people walk in, you can be like, hey, would you like to talk to these other people? So you're saying those people aren't here represented in the day-to-day flow of bodies as much as-- it seems all very nebulous in Vey. You talk about domains and demographics. Can you give it a little more-- I can be specific. Like, I think probably the bulk is like, people doing software or adjacent roles at maybe like energy or related companies and are maybe venture backed. But that is only part of the solution. There's people doing forestry work or policy work or activism and bringing with groups like 350 or maybe the electricians union or something like that. And climate is definitely not the thing. We're like, you and I are going to jam out and agrarian come out with this dope AI tool that solves climate change. It's a lot of people working on cement and changing zoning codes. So it's easier to install heat pumps and making it easier to protect natural lands and all these sorts of things. And the more diversity we have in the space and the more representation people see, it seems like it's much easier to say, you do belong here, rather than like, oh, I don't know about software, so I don't belong here. Let's assume that the demographic of this core space is representative of the greater climate tech builder population in Seattle. What needs to happen for that population to become more diversified? Not just here, but within the city more broadly. You asked one of our guests in a previous show, if you were the mayor of Seattle or Seattle entrepreneurship or something to that effect, what would you do? I guess that's what I want to hear more about is, where do you see the opportunities, where you see the gaps, what do you want to be true about the way that Seattle or even the PNW tackles climate change? The couple of things that come to mind, so we had a panel a month or so ago about fixing Seattle's entrepreneurship ecosystem. Fixing it. Fixing it. It's broken, though. I mean, most things are, that's my-- everything has so much opportunity improvement. We're at a fraction of what could be on so many dimensions and personal dimensions, all that stuff. But one of the things, at least when you compare us to San Francisco, is that it seems like capital is a lot of what's free flowing and that probably rises from the fact that a lot of the people in Seattle who have more money are people who have money from jobs at large tech companies. And so their relationship to money is different than someone who founded a startup and then sold it and then gave that invested a bunch of money elsewhere. So there's just a different relationship to capital. Way more way, like-- The more about that. --inappropriately risk averse for the asset class of brand new things. And so people in San Francisco are very used to this early stage. I got to get on this deal as soon as possible. Otherwise, someone else is going to. Whereas my understanding is that in Seattle, it's a little bit more of, oh, can I see some more traction? And then all deployers are like, well-- And you believe this risk aversion is a consequence of earning their wealth through safe means? I think so. And like, at least we have large technology companies here, but those were not founded very recently. Whereas in markets like San Francisco is very much contrast. I think something that-- so that's one option where it's like this is a different market that's doing something maybe better than we are. But in any-- sometimes that's much less interesting to me than finding the way to the be the most Seattle that we can be. And so I think finding a way-- a lot of people who are in Seattle are in Seattle because they love being surrounded by natural beauty and recreating in nature and also want some parts of what tech white collar work gives you of some standard of living, some sense of ambition, because there are other places like you could live in the mountains, but you wouldn't be able to go to an entrepreneurship meetup or something like that. And so something that honors that combination would I think be nicer? So if we had more physical spaces that were maybe integrated with nature, so downtown is extremely convenient from a public transit accessibility standpoint. But I like the sounds of birds and the rustling of winds and trees and green lake lapping against the shore. And you don't get that when you're inside a building. And so having more of a focus-- and I'm excited for parts of that where that leads in. So later today, Vicki, one of our members is leading a forging hike in Discovery Park. And that's really cool, because it seems anathema. If I spend all of my time at a computer trying to address climate change, and then I die, and the integral of my time spent is looking at a screen, is not what I want to do. I would like to ideally look at a screen as little as humanly possible and spend all of my time hanging out with people and moving my body. It feels like no simplification. You're not just looking at a screen, as if you were staring at a blank wall. You're using a high-power computer in order to solve problems. Is this not valuable? It is, but it is to some degree a zero-sum game that every moment passes by, and I could have been spending that time doing something else. And I at least personally often feel I really like to be in nature and to talk with people in real life. Well, you're just describing opportunity costs, and that's not unique to staring at a screen. That's true. That's true. What do you wish beyond nature that you can do more of in the climate space? How do you see your role in this community involving, or how has it evolved? I would like to do more of helping people get unblocked and get new stuff started in interesting ways. And that can look like a lot of different things. It can look like the aforementioned conversation of trying to drill down. I'm like, who is your customer? Because then I'm like, oh, cool. Like, if you're working on agriculture product, if your customer is farmers, that is different than your customer is produce wholesalers. And so understanding who you're trying to talk to helps me figure out who I need to connect you with. And then that can go in multiple directions of, if I notice that there is a pattern of people looking for this kind of thing, then we can stand up. Some sort of infrastructure, no matter how lightweight, to solve that problem. And I think that's fun. So by way of analogy, before I did community organizing around professional climate work, I did it around mutual aid work with unhoused folks. And it was very fun to notice when there are common problems of all of these folks are trying to exchange their propane tanks. And where all these folks need to keep their food cold and or need laundry. And then, oh, cool. Let's construct a program where every week we come, take your empty propane tanks, your warmed ice packs, and your dirty laundry, and then come back. And that's like, cool, we have now established a new thing that meets that need. I want to do something else now. And the analogy here is capital. So I guess it comes down to capital-- And it could be other things. It could be capital. It could be finding jobs. It could be finding the right pilot customer who has the risk tolerance to adopt your new thing. There's a lot of people, especially that are developing hard technologies that have this catch-22 of, like, I would love to buy your thing. If you had already shipped 1,000 of them, it's like, yes, well, I first need you to buy 1,000 of them. Then I can go to everyone else and if you look, how cool I am. And so figuring out how that can be solved. And sometimes it can be programs. It can also be-- Oh, I know this one guy who works at the city and they're willing to, they're a little bit more risk-culler than other people, so you should talk to them and then maybe something will be born of that. - Well, I think this is something that you bring that's unique to the space is the super connector, right? And I think it sounds like that is a big part of how you wanna continue helping in addition to maybe unlocking these resources. Let's say I gave you $500 million and you had to deploy it to improve climate work. What would you do, where would the money go? And also, what would you not spend it on? You'd be like, fuck that, I'm not spending money on this. (laughing) - It's a fun question. Well, it's the first thing that come to mind are perhaps democratizing access to a physical, prosocial community space such as 9-0 with something like scholarships. Right now we have to be very, like I would ideally, this is a public good and I would want as many people to access it as possible and not everyone has $150 a month on hand to become a member. Although I think some degree of exchange of cash is important for valuing it versus just expecting things to be free and given to you. - It's getting in the game, right? - Yeah, I think that having a space that was more integrated in nature would be amazing is I think that also drives a lot of people's appreciation for like this, I am so passionate about protecting the planet 'cause when I am in nature, I'm like, this is the best thing. And any building is not as cool as sleeping under the stars and all that jazz. I think it would also be fun to perhaps have some sort of smaller funding vehicle for people that want to try something new. I notice an unfortunate gap that there's people who are building, there's some people to do like free volunteer, mutual aid kind of work. There's on the far other end, there's people who are fundraising venture capital to hopefully make outsized returns. But I think there's this huge missing middle which is particularly pernicious as it pertains to climate solutions because the intent is to not make a lot of money. There are some solutions that both may address climate change and make a lot of money. But given that the point is to address these social problems, it would be nice if there was a capital source that had a lower expectation of return than venture capital. But perhaps much more wieldly than grants which seemed to be nightmarish from everyone I've talked to. And so something that allowed people to play in this space of I would like to build something new and I don't wanna have to take on this huge obligation. I think a lot of people will also take on venture capital because they are leaving their tech job and they have a degree of lifestyle that requires some pay and the only way to continue receiving that pay is to get a lot of funding to then pay yourself a salary. And I think there's some people who, this gets into the idea of universal basic income that if you were, what if you were getting like 60 grand for a year to just make impact? So you're not making hundreds of thousands of dollars but you're also not only relying on whatever savings you may have. And so then you can develop perhaps cute solutions. So before I was doing this, I did a little bit of selling heat pumps in Seattle and there are people operating that space that have raised a lot of capital and it doesn't quite make sense to me that the amount of capital they've raised is to measure it with the problem they're trying to solve because on the same hand working with heat pump insolvers there's like a tool called cool kelp and it helps you figure out like what type of heat pump is right for a home. And it's like a couple bucks per home to size a home and it's not this like $1,000 a month SaaS model sort of thing. So I think there's a lot of things like that where there are important problems important as measured by the potential benefit to humans and non-human life and all this jazz that aren't necessarily super bankable for someone who wants larger turns but it nonetheless very worthwhile. And right now the only people who can work on those are people who were fortunate enough by whatever means to have enough capital on hand that they can work on something that doesn't immediately pay them and I think that would be really special to see that come forward. And right now that's the only thing a lot of people who are like, oh I worked at X-Tech company for a number of years and now I have the freedom to do what I want and who knows how beautiful it would be if more people could do that sort of thing with that being the mandate. Not that you can now just mess around and do whatever you want. Your job is to provide a pro-social value you are given like a stipend, figure out what the problems are and come up with solutions and implement them. - Yeah, what do you think is holding people back from doing that? Or more people back from doing that? - I think it's a combination of the material factors that we've been talking about. Of just having enough cash like if you're living in paycheck to paycheck the idea of what's a big, big, big, big, big problem that I can solve is challenging to fit. I think there's also, we live in a society that does not emphasize giving people agency and that is something that I find very exciting about entrepreneurship. I don't particularly care about outsized venture returns. I do think it's really cool when folks set their own path. So instead of I need to find someone to pay me to do something, it's I want to create something brand new. And I think that's very cool. But I think that that requires a big leap and it can even happen in smaller ways. So I think a lot of what I've done through my community organizing work both in the homelessness stuff that I used to do and the climate stuff that I do now, both before 9.0 and during, is trying to encourage people to feel confident in getting something started. And that can be like meeting at a brewery but most people go to events and very few people organize gatherings and encouraging more people to start new things that it can happen whenever they want. Because I think very exciting. It's like there's this notion in pedagogy of the oppressed by Apollo Ferrar that most people see themselves as objects in reality rather than subjects, something that things are done too rather than, and that's mirrors the discussion we had previously. Like a panel, what does a panel tell you? A panel tells you that your job is to sit and listen to experts. And that feels particularly a bummer when it's like, we'll hold questions to the end. So not even that you can have a question, it's like what are, these are also smart people in the audience, not to say the people on stage aren't smart. So when I've gone to like particularly larger conferences, then it becomes even more worse. 'Cause you have like two to four people on stage and hundreds of people in the audience, in which case like we have televisions. I don't know why I am at this event. Holding your question to the end is like holding a shit when you really need a shit. It's not pleasant. And that's part of why I was, when we were talking about like, oh should this event that you're organizing being during climate week? A lot of people will feel like, oh I'll do it during climate week. It's like you can do it whenever dude. - It's right, this is the bias fraction. The activator mindset. Interesting. How do we do that? My take is that it boils down ultimately to do things desire and fear and getting people to push through those things. So one, having a high enough desire to take action on the idea and then two, to be able to act with the fear of failure or that this event might not be good enough, but above. How do you grapple with this in your own work? - Well at this stage it helps that I've done a few things that as all things start as nothing and then maybe become something. And so even when 90 started at some point, we had zero members and now we have hundreds of members. But when you have zero members, it's this sense of off fuck. Maybe this is all a joke, but then I'm able to reflect back on like, okay well I did the homelessness thing. At one point that was also no one and then became many people. And sort of reflecting that these things have cycles, which is some of the value that I've gotten from listening to the Y Combinator podcast is that it seems a lot of people overfit to this large tech company does things this way. So I should do things this way. I was like well when they started, they didn't do things that way. And you're not at the big stage. And so remembering that even if things are small, it doesn't mean that it's bad. And also being comfortable with your point of viewing these things as like not failures but learning opportunities. So every time we organize an event, maybe for the first two minutes, people aren't there. And I have a sense of, ah fuck, we messed up. There aren't people here. And then there might be a lot of people there, perhaps like to the point that, ah shit, we need to get more chairs out. And so being having some sort of, it's like low expectations and I hopes that it's not bad if nothing happens and feeling very comfortable. That doesn't reflect poorly on you. If you weren't to fail sometimes, then you are coloring within the lines. far too conservatively and giving yourself that permission to be embarrassed is, I think, important. And luckily, this is a community where people aren't dunking on you for not going, people not coming to your thing. And so I think encouraging that kind of space where it's okay to mess up is very special. Yeah. And I'm seeing more of that. I think with these kind of jam sessions that people are kind of stepping up and hosting over lunch that's been really interesting. Okay. I want to ask you a final question of what do you need or want climate builders or just climate concern citizens in Seattle to know. You mentioned the other day that you had an idea for a t-shirt. And so I'm kind of taking this notion of like, okay, if I had kind of just like my message to the world that I'm broadcasting out there, what would it be? Whether it's a t-shirt or billboard or whatever else you want. Perhaps something like the short phrase would be leverage community. The unwrapped thing would be when I'm talking to someone, the thought experiment I tried to lead them through is that this community is here to serve you what does it do. And so this was similarly for last year's P&W Climate Week was someone to be, how can I help? The question is, if the point of P&W Climate Week was to get you what you want, what would that be? And maybe it's like I really want to work at this battery company or something. And so, okay, great. We should perhaps host a workshop or panel or something on batteries that you are led and then you can invite the CEOs of those companies. And so, to think of the community as this huge resource of people that can help you reach your goals in so far as you were able to put in the legwork to be clear about what your gaps are. And so if it's just like we're all going to meet up at a brewery, that can very much meet your goal. If your goal is to be in community with other people that work on the thing that you do. Or last week, there was an out-and-climate gathering. So if you want to be with other queer folks, this is great, because now you no longer think that there aren't queer folks in climate because you're at this bar with 30-something other people. And so, to go through that thought exercise of perhaps I have this problem, what is a creative community solution to address this need of mine? Which I think it means important to be very clear about what your need is, because sometimes that can change over time as you explore it. But if the thing you need is someone who has a mid-size fleet of vehicles that is looking to electrify, then the cool, that's brainstorm on that and do some combination of connecting with people one-on-one and also organizing perhaps something larger that can help other people. Because all of these folks have similar things that they're looking for. Well, that last statement's interesting, because at first I'm thinking, okay, if this is a thought experiment, what do I get out of it? That could lead to maybe more of a selfish take instead of give type culture. And I've heard critiques of Seattle's like tech ecosystem being a bit transactional. But then you said something there at the end saying that like, by getting what you want, you're also helping others engage in similar interests. So where's that line in your mind? Or is it a superposition of these two things? I think you get a lot for free given that this is a pro-social space. So people are working on problems that if it was a space that was all, I don't know, AI, Bitcoin, private equity kind of thing, then maybe it wouldn't have the same tenor. But given that the thing is I want to learn about how to extract lithium from brine so that we can make batteries and stop burning oil as much. Other people also care about that. You aren't alone. If you have this sensation, there's a good chance that other people also care about that. And so if you were to solve this problem individually, like you reach out to someone on LinkedIn and schedule a video call, then you are not benefiting other people as much as you could. But if you do this as a communal thing, and you have like a lunch and learn where you invite someone to talk about a thing, you're getting what you want and that you've now built a connection with someone who maybe will be your future colleague or mentor or something. But also now a lot of other people are like, "Oh, well, that's cool. Do you know that someone was here earlier today talking about the thing that I'm really interested in?" And so I think the benefit is that these are problems that have need way more help than they are getting. And so it's not like there's only one person that needs to be working on this problem. And so even though you need maybe a job in this space, other people also want to. And this is all in flux. You'll have this job for a few years. You'll get fired or quit or lay it off. Someone else might want it. And so doing these things in community, working on problems that are pro-social, I think gives you a lot of this for free. And people are willing to be very helpful, which can also backfire if they're like, you're expecting a lot of free labor from people, which has been a hard boundary for me to draw. Like we have hundreds of members when non-members are like, "Hey, Louis, will you do such and such for me?" Like I would love to. Unfortunately, there is so much time in the day and there's an opportunity cost for every action. And unfortunately, I'm perhaps maybe just one even respond to this email because there's people here in person who are supporting the existence of this space. And so it is not always an easy question. And doing so in a way that respects boundaries is important. So for me, let's do some events during the daytime because then I get to go home after work. Unless it's something that's like amazing and I recognize this person's like flying from out of town. And so I try to figure out where the middle ground is. But ideally, it's something that works for a lot of people and isn't having a new effort and is ideally restorative for all involved. To like someone came yesterday to give a talk. And that's something that they really wanted an audience for and that people really wanted to hear about. And so everyone wins. And I think that's the stuff that's most special to focus on. Tell me what was going to be on that t-shirt again. Well, the phrase I've been saying to my in my head is I accept full responsibility for my life. I get this sense that there was maybe a little addendum on the phrase that I shared with you. Perhaps there was, but oh, one day I'll be dead. Ah, yes. So those go together because not only do I accept full responsibility for my life, but my life is finite. And so I think it whoves me and everyone to consider what you are doing and whether or not is what you want to be doing because the thought experiment I often go through is that, oh, I'll be on my deathbed. Did I want to spend 40 hours a week on email? No. I would like to spend this little time as humanly possible as email because there's so many things I like doing. And I want to just my life to be a continuous flurry of things I love doing. On Saturday, I did a low-alpha and which was a full day athletic event that I just made up of stuff that I like to do. And I feel like that's a fun example of intention setting and executing on that. And ideally, all of time is that versus, oh, I don't want to get fired. I don't want this person to be mad at me. And so you're just kind of living your life accommodating other people instead of doing the combination of thinking about what you really want and really enjoy doing and then ensuring that you are doing that. Which does make some compromises. Maybe sometimes people are like, hey, do you want to do this? Or you have like a sense of like, oh, I should check my messages. Like, well, you can't do that and meditate. So perhaps in this 10-minute period you're choosing to meditate, you're not checking your messages. And it will be okay. Not everything can get done. Yeah. To what degree do you feel like the results you've been able to drive have been results of your intentions. And to what degree have they been spontaneous or emergent from simply taking any action? I guess to what degree maybe is the wrong way to ask the question. I guess these are more qualitative things. It's definitely both. Sometimes, and it can be like, maybe you could like shoehorn it by saying like one of my intentions. Just like trust myself to like, act spontaneously. Which is, I think, important to me. So like for the community organizing work I was doing for a couple years before being General Manager for 90 was not out of an intention to eventually have a physical space where it is my paid job. It was just, I want to have friends who work on this stuff. So I guess then that was me acting out of intention and trusting myself that like, well, cool, let's gather with people. I don't know what's going to happen. It's not some, and I guess the intention setting is different than goal setting. It's not that in 10 years I will have accomplished this. I view it much more manageable as this is what I would really like to do on this day. Yeah. How are you going to show up? Yeah. And I figure that my best life is doing that for all of my days. Rather than I create this 80,000 hour plan that lists out what I do and then I do that. Because you learn so much and you constantly change and it would be ridiculous to try to know that in advance. Well, let's take this to the end of the podcast episode. Thanks for doing the podcast with me. It's been an interesting journey, interesting prototype. And any final words? I really appreciate you pushing me on this on this, both in getting the podcast itself started and being very ruthless in giving me constructive feedback. I feel like that's something that has given me a lot of appreciation for you. So I really appreciate you being very authentically curious and relentless and the best possible way. You're welcome. And thank you for finding awesome guests to that makes season one a reality. and just shout out to, let's see, who's been on the show? It was like Ted Schauer, we had David Cutler, Daphne DeYoung, Daphne Howie, Janine Ash, Shimi, Shimofi, who's calling Shimi? - Shimi, I just call him Shimi, a Karina. - Karina Star, yeah, shout out Karina Star. It's been a good crew. And you have all been part of this experiment. Thank you. And we'll just keep building stuff and see what happens. - Woohoo, thank you on this. - Thanks, dude. (upbeat music) This show was recorded and produced by Andres Felarie at 90 in downtown Seattle. You can learn more about what's happening at 90 Seattle by visiting 90.com/seattle. And you can reach out to us via email at [email protected]. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)