Speaker 1yeah this is the thing with me and my relapse i am not picturing it like i'm gonna just have a wine with this dinner and i'm gonna see how i do i am going to buy a bottle of el humidor gold and i'm going to drink it straight like i already know that's how i would do it so i know that my
Speaker 2relapse will take me to hospital yeah well i mean i i remember one time uh taking you to like a doctor at college it was like and like uh he told me the doctor told me that i should get you some alcohol because it's interesting yeah because you're a lot because like you know dirty gym clothes uh tapering down and whatnot and but i was pissed at you so i i got you something that i thought i got you vodka or something like some cheap vodka because i was like i know you want
Speaker 3tequila i'm not gonna get you what a great fuck you oh my god i have no idea that is such a great fuck you i've not heard this story yet okay so for context here we have chloe in the studio and and chloe is in recovery and andrew got to witness both sides the addiction and the recovery right so you guys were together or yeah um why don't you just describe your relationship to everybody so that before we get into these great stories the relationship today uh know what it was and then oh okay yeah i guess what it is today it was love at first sight
Speaker 1honestly i was crazy about you like pretty instantly yeah we met at like a wedding function so my i was going to be made of honor then demoted to bridesmaid because i could not stop drinking but i was in the wedding party for danielle who's now his sister-in-law it's true yeah yeah i remember walking up to andrew after like an engagement party at a house all of the events that you have leading up and he just felt comfortable and he felt kind and i felt really out of place because i was already dealing with a lot of shame over my using but i wasn't admitting that yet and um so i just like felt like i just wanted to be around this human and then every time i saw him at the subsequent events i was like oh good that that person is there i really need to like be near them because i just the bridesmaids i felt so isolated and alone um and at one point i think it was on the day of the wedding i finally get around to being like he's holding my snack plate for me because he's a gentleman while we take pictures and i'm like so how do you know how are you associated with the wedding and he's like grooms my brother this is like chloe already so narcissistic insulated don't care about anything didn't
Speaker 2even notice that makes sense to me and then i i remember i did we dance or like we did i don't that that night but i remember i you were sticking around after and i and like i was and like i came over and like asked and like i know like i was like waiting for an opera i had my eye on you you know for a lot of the night and i went over and at the end uh the night you were like picking
Speaker 1flowers off centerpieces i was all right yeah i'm taking them home they were like just let these beautiful flowers go this was a jewish wedding there was a lot of money like these flowers i made new arrangements when i got home and then
Speaker 2and then i asked if you wanted to go for another drink and we went to
Speaker 1hemingway's hemingway's yeah on your cumberland and then after hemingway's we
Speaker 2sat on that big rock until like four or five in the morning and i was like i see you i thought
Speaker 1that his date to the wedding was his girlfriend and that he was being a bit of a player i didn't fully trust but they were just friends yeah um so on this rock i was like i know what you're up to and i'm not gonna kiss you and i'm not gonna love it then we did and i was i was just like that was
Speaker 3it but yeah yeah so you called him out for
Speaker 1playing yeah i was like what's the deal there but i don't know andrew's an honest person and um i think you can relate to this anthony it's like tough to bullshit a bullshitter so when you just kind of are met with someone who's like so openly vulnerably like no that's my friend and i really like you would you like to spend time there's no story yeah fuck that's not a game yeah all right yeah i would but also like i know so much now and back then i didn't but the self-loathing that existed at the time it's like no wonder i would be so like yeah right yeah right like i don't believe it this
Speaker 3is too good to be true i don't deserve this yeah i'm already thinking those thoughts i'm at a wedding
Speaker 1where i was supposed to be made of honor so i'm feeling pretty dishonorable and like this incredible
Speaker 2man is just being nice and you were in later i think i later like you were in like quite the dark place like before like like around that time that's right yeah um so did you know already that she had been struggling with no no so uh well i mean yeah we had actually like a nice little cute thing which was that i sent her like this message i took i got her number i sent her this message and like i like getting no response all day and then like i i'm like i think it's some i was like freaking out i was like i guess maybe i misread the entire situation kind of thing and i eventually texted like her it's like hey it's like hey just seeing if you got them at like i don't know if you're not feeling it and not feeling it or whatever and and i misread things but i just wanted to i didn't want to you know leave it to chance and you're like oh my god i've been waiting for
Speaker 1i had been going out of my mind because no message had come through so i was on the other side going the exact same thought oh my god it was all in my head i fucking knew it this is what i really deserve men are dogs but all the time it was right there but then uh anyways uh yeah we we started
Speaker 2we like you know i uh we i didn't realize like right away i why she was at her parents place and we you know spent like uh i basically like lived there for like my mom immediately had this
Speaker 1trip to california i just met this guy i was like do you want to come and stay here so it's me and him in the house yep 100 and all in
Speaker 2all at once right away yeah and i and i was kind of like i was kind of open with that as well i mean frankly like in my life i was also i was dealing with like my own kind of depression and and my own kind of mental health like kind of struggles as well and so like this is like the bright kind of thing in my life at the time and and yeah and and we were like partying and i i was known i was like no stranger to partying and i was like no stranger to partying and i was like no stranger to partying like as well um and then i don't when i like so like her her parents are on this trip and like we have the house to ourselves and things are great and and fine it only went it came only when their parent when her parents came back yeah that did i really start did i like did things start to notice because of the family dynamic the the all the you know internal like drama that kind of that and dynamics like in like mother you know mother daughter dynamics and like um just toxic unhealthy kind of patterns that they were in like i did i kind of see it a lot clearer and then also like when like i was partying a lot which uh at a time then i had to not party because i had to work or i had to or like and then i uh and then she kept going and that was like also um yeah so like you add stress to a situation and then like all the unhealthy like a lot of the unhealthy dynamics
Speaker 1started to come about yeah and this is like at this point in my life i can remember so well how the way i felt about me and my in my family dynamic was i was a total victim i had so much anger i had all this understanding all of a sudden of all the ways they'd manipulated me and bullied me and been so inappropriate but i hadn't even considered humility or even like looking at my side of anything yeah no way was not there yet this alcoholic was ready to like still tear the world up and um so yeah so what andrew witnessed was just a lot of like um rage and then like my mom does have her own behaviors that are triggering and anytime she do that i would look at that and go see what i mean see it's there it's so real yeah exactly and like in his he's not being a bad person by being like oh yeah i see it because he did but it's also like i don't know if i can say but little did he know little did i know he was just like giving fuel to this fire that was like that's right i knew it and now i found someone to validate all this thing
Speaker 3i've been feeling yeah and i mean any guy would like any guy would in that situation you just you wanted to like you at that point you're like well it's i want i want
Speaker 2her i want her to like and like and by that point like when i start seeing the dynamic i also i also see your like your like you know adding to it like i've like you know you it takes like one dinner before like you and your mom have like an all-out screaming match and like i'm like and i'm trying to be the peacemaker is that i don't know it's like and it's that's stressful and well yeah of course it's stressful but but yeah the but yeah like i i saw it like i don't know i was just trying to it's like okay maybe all right maybe like i don't know i was in a situation that i wasn't really like ready for but or wasn't really i capable of of managing like as uh but i didn't know that i wasn't capable of managing it very well so i i was i was just like had an over confidence in my ability to like man help the situation or to manage the situation and then um and that kept me going as well and then also like the i don't know like the more I realized like the depth of kind of what you were struggling with like the like the darkness and then also like once I'm once finding like once I'm finding out like how much you're drinking which like is uh like a large oh yeah which was a quite a large amount like um like like I I don't I felt like I could help. I felt like it would be... I felt, I felt like I can't, like I'm, I'm, I'm in a unique position in this person's life that, that can help in some way or that's what I thought. And so I thought it was my responsibility to help in that situation. And we, and then, yeah, I'm not sure what, what, what led to like that first conversation about you not having to like cut to not drink, like, or like that, like this was a problem. Yeah. But like, yeah, like it wasn't like, you know, there's like going out and partying drunk and then there was, and then there was like, like blackout and not talking, not being cogent, not being clear at all. And, and like, then, and like the, the meanness that came out at that and all that stuff. And. And I was like, okay, this is, this is a pro, this is a problem. And like, I was trying to like talk through some of like the, the mental health, like, like the, like unhealthy dynamic stuff of it, parts of it. But, but I real, I think at some point I realized that, that the alcohol, like, I don't know, you'd have like long discussions and that, that would all go to waste or at least and seem because there's no memory of it the next day and kind of.
Speaker 3So this like, this sort of like high resolve in the moment of like, I'm going to change, I'm going to. Do better or like, this is becoming a problem and then forgetting everything that's happened.
Speaker 2And then there was like, I think for also, I kind of became this person for you that like this, I was like this black and white, like I was either a saint, like an angel that came to the, or I was like the devil and, and like the, like, you know, specifically cruel and the, you know, the target of that. So like I. I saw, I saw that and, and, and yeah, like, I know it became, it became like a, somewhat of like an emergency situation for, like, for me, not, not like in like a, in like an acute thing, but like this whole dynamic, this whole thing is like an emergency situation and I, I kind of took it on myself to kind of help and, and I, and like, I, and like, yeah, like, I don't know, I, I hadn't, I hadn't felt like the, like, I know I'm sure part of it is like the. The, the dramatic stakes that, that were like, that were involved as well, but, but there was love, there was love like there, that like I hadn't felt like before, which is a very overwhelming thing as well. So it was a lot of, a lot of stuff going on at the, but do you remember, do you remember what, what, like, do you remember like when we, when we, or you decided that we should start like dealing with this alcohol thing?
Speaker 1Here's what I remember. Oh, sorry. So one, I want to say, and this. This is not in any attempt to save my own hide, but just as like kind of interesting. I definitely remember, I have flashbacks of moments when I am like berating you. I'm like standing over you. I'm saying awful things and I'm like putting chairs in front of your room so you can't leave. I'm like doing all of this really messed up, abusive, creepy stuff, but I can never remember the train of thought that brought me to the part where you were a monster. I can remember the part that brings me to the part where you're an angel, no problem. But for some reason, when you say that, that's how I saw you, I take you at your word for sure. But I'm like, honestly. Of all the people I was so mean to when I was drunk, I cannot remember what my brain managed to come up with to convince me in that moment that you were the devil. But back to the point. Interesting. Back to the point. I remember one time it just, you know, the amount just got to be too much. I still don't have any understanding of how withdrawal works, but it's like every once in a while. And this was the beginning of it becoming shorter and shorter windows between like starting again and getting to this point of just like throwing up. Just cannot stop. I'm in so much pain. I'm in so much stress. And I asked you at that apartment by Spadina, whatever. The boathouse. The boathouse one. That's actually like on an angle. Yeah. I asked you, like, you're like, do you want me to call 9-1-1? And I was like, yeah. Yeah. And I went to the hospital. He stayed in my hospital bed with me, like, even though there's no room to do that, like just like so much dedication and so much kindness because it was the first time. Yeah. That's the thing. Yeah. And like, this is what I put everyone through, including the people at North York General who are like, you have like a frequent flyer card here, Chloe. We're not going to treat you the same way all the time.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1But was it, I think that happened. I'm super scared. You're super kind. I'd like to think that anything like that would teach anybody, but I don't understand this disease yet. I don't understand yet that it's not going to be enough to teach me no matter how bad it is. But was it after that hospital visit? Because my next memory is you saying, listen, like, do you like living this way? I don't know how else to ask that. I'm not trying to judge you. This is just my memory where I'm on the floor of like that living room in the boathouse.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 1And I'm like, no, it is. Like, like exhausting or what do you think? And so you're like, why don't we do this? Why don't we just call women's college hospitals really nearby?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1I'll call. We'll just go in there and we'll ask them, like, would you be willing to do that? And I was like, yeah. And you were like, and I tell people this story about how you were like, we can go to the LCBO after, like, I'm not trying to tell you, you have to stop drinking today.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Would you be like to talk to someone? Would you like to change?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1That's what, but what do you remember? Because I bet your memory is better than mine.
Speaker 2No, I mean, that's because that's where my, that's where my gap is. I remember. I remember. Oh. I remember the, well, I remember the, I remember like the time in the boathouse where, like where we had to call the hospital, but that was already after a point where we were kind of not, where we had decided that you weren't drinking, that, that, like that you were tapering down. I think that was like, that was like a taper that went, that got, that, that was, you tapered too much or you went down to like, like, and so the, you were getting like a withdrawal reaction and that was like part of like, you couldn't swallow.
Speaker 6Oh, okay.
Speaker 2And so like, you couldn't get, keep any liquids down. You couldn't get any liquids in. And that was like an emergency kind of situation. Yeah.
Speaker 1And then after that, cause then there was this period of time, it was like two weeks where I'd stopped. We were in the boathouse and then St. Patrick's day came. And to this day, I tell people St. Patrick's day was the hardest day to let go of all the holidays of all the occasions to drink. For some reason, my ego, especially because I was in rehab on St. Patrick's day. And it was one of those days we got a phone call from art. So I called him and I was just like the butterflies in my stomach thinking he's out partying. He's already met someone. He's having a good time, but it was. It was like St. Patrick's day. And you're like, yeah, okay. If you don't drink, and this is like not anyone's fault in my opinion, cause neither of us knew enough, but you're like, you can drink on St. Patrick's day. Just don't drink till St. Patrick's day. And I was like, okay. And then on St. Patrick's day, I went, bought this like exquisite, cool ass looking bottle of tequila. And then I was just off to the races all over again. And that was my first taste of when you take a step back from this disease, whether it's three months or 30 years, when you go back to it, you will be right where you were. It will have progressed all along. I will end up in that hospital even faster. I will all like shut me. I cannot ever access those party days again. And that's like one of the hardest things to accept as an alcoholic.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, I remember, I remember the first hospital hospital experience that it was so like, I was like, well, okay, I'm glad that this is over. Like, I'm glad that this.
Speaker 3We've dealt with this. This is so. This is what I'm getting at.
Speaker 2Like if I, I've, I, I was only a witness to it and like has horror and as saw how horrible like this whole like withdrawal experience it like is and was. And if it's any, if you had, if it had any of. Like, I was like the effect to like it, you know, like, like that, it sure did on me. Surely this will be it. This is the last. It couldn't get worse. It couldn't get, it couldn't get worse.
Speaker 1You're a normal person. Who's like, who would want to do that again? Yeah, right.
Speaker 3And that's the biggest difference between alcoholism and non-alcoholics is like, wow, that was scary. I better not ever do that ever again for us. It's like, how do I get around this? Yeah. How do I do it better next time? I just, I just mismanaged my, I'm sure I can. Maybe it was the vodka, not the tequila. Yeah. That was it. Right.
Speaker 1If I ate more. Yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah. And that's, and that's where I have a friend that's like in, he's further like long than that, then at that point, but like, he's still like, he's still like doing the, he's still doing the, um, the whole like, well, like, like I really sh like, I really shouldn't like, you know, like I'll, I'll keep an eye on it, like I'll, I'll do it. But then it always, it always ends up poorly, you know, any, but you can know what, like what was great, what it was, what, what, what was, I mean, it seemed like a bad thing at the time. But, uh, it was actually like a, one of her saving graces was that she would, whenever she started drinking, she would just end up in the hospital like three days later, either because the cops were called or, or, uh, or you got so sick that like, that you couldn't that like, yeah.
Speaker 6There wasn't anything else to do.
Speaker 2Yeah. And you were, and, and you, and like, and if you were, whenever you interacted with like an EMT or a, like a police, they were, you were very belligerent with them. Yeah. I remember one time she was at like, um, this was later on, this was like, we had broke, we had, uh, broken up or we had, um, but she, she was at my, my place and, um, she was causing a, yeah, she, yeah, she was causing a, like a scene and, and, um, and we were like having a fight. I think this is maybe like some, not barricading the doors, but like, I was like, I was like hiding out from you in like my, in my room and like you were, and you were like kind of on like a bit of a rampant. And anyways, I can't remember the, like what ended up, I think you, like, I can't, I can't remember why the cops were called. I think that you called them, um, just like, just like, uh, yeah, I think this would like you with an unreasonable confidence that they would have your back. Oh my God. Yeah.
Speaker 1That's me. That's me for sure. I remember somebody being like, especially as I've met more alcoholics, I was like, I'm going to call my friends from rehab. Watch out. You're in trouble now, but every time. if they even picked up the phone they'd be like hi chloe what's up yeah i'm not gonna help you all right just like that and i was like okay that's cool bye yeah okay another one um oh my
Speaker 2god but yeah i remember i remember uh like they were they're taking you to like they were like i think they they then called they got the paramedics there and then they were taking away but you were like uh like shit talking the the police officers and oh yeah and i remember one like seeing the police officers at the door after they'd already taken you into like the ambulance and and like it was like some people you know it's such a and such a lovely day she said that no the police is like yeah you know some people got a chip on their yeah yeah something like that what are you gonna do yeah what are you gonna do
Speaker 3what was your concept of addiction and alcoholism at this point that's a good question um
Speaker 2um i think i mean i i think i had um i knew that it was that it was like usually a mask for something like usually a solution to another problem i think that that that was clear and at that point and i had done like a fair amount of research like into it at um um i didn't realize uh like how persistent i definitely didn't realize how persistent it was i don't know uh yeah i'm not i'm not really sure what it what my what my understanding of it at the time like the
Speaker 3reason i asked that is because like a lot of people my wife included when you don't understand it my parents as well when i first got sober it's like you're just being stupid that that's kind of the first thought for a lot of people is like just stop yeah look at your life can't you see what's going on and you have it's almost like you're talking to two versions of her right like this jekyll and hyde where she wants to get her act together she has all this pain and trauma that she's telling you and then it's like right back to the the the so what i guess the the thing that
Speaker 2kind of triggered something that um the the concept that i had or the what the idea that i had in my head was that there was a disconnect between what i called morning clo the morning version of chloe and yeah the evening club like and so like the evening chloe like has you know like the morning chloe like even chloe goes out drinks too much causes all this trouble for morning chloe morning chloe like like makes all promises and makes all the all these things i'm gonna get better i'm gonna do this like i'm not gonna let that happen again and then uh but like the daytime happens and you've and and like there's not there's not a conversation there's there's not a good connection between the morning and the the evening than the nighttime and so the so the night so the only way that the morning chloe can talk to the nighttime chloe is by fucking up the daytime chloe like it's life to the point where like the nighttime chloe like will actually be forced to stop or be forced to like acknowledge that something's fucked up like that's because the like you know like uh the night at the night that was that was i think i felt like that was a good this is when i last recorded yeah you talked
Speaker 3about this last time yeah this is the guy i can talk about him yeah yeah so the the only way that morning chloe could communicate to this alcoholic version of herself was like you know the sos was to like start self-sabotaging almost right yeah well so the night so the nighttime can party the
Speaker 2nighttime can do things that like you know oh like i'll yeah i'll stay like you know just even like in terms of like less uh intense drinking like you know like oh i'm part like i'll like the classics just like i'll stay for a few more drinks don't worry like it's a tomorrow problem kind of thing and so like that so the morning the morning version of of you gets starts accumulating all these complaints and it's like in like it tries to be a good soldier but eventually like they they're they're overwhelmed and they can't really like manage it and so like there's they i feel like there's like the but the more but like the failure to to like for the to connect to that like nighttime like the connect to the failure to connect actions to consequence to like the actions to like the consequences like uh leads leads to like the like the this kind of rebellion on the part of like the morning like thing which is like i'm going all right i'm going to i'm gonna i'm not gonna do the thing in the morning i'm not gonna like struggle through this i'm gonna i'm going to i'm gonna start it up right away i'm gonna it up yeah i feel like that's where like the rebellion like that rebellion comes in and like that like i'm gonna i'm gonna it up to the point where you can't ignore me anymore
Speaker 1yeah and like we're not even going to get to the night time i'm going to you up so good
Speaker 2during the day and i don't know like that's that got me like got me thinking about like you know like doing nice things like doing nice things for yourself like where you're like where you develop that connection between like your like i'm gonna do the laundry now even though i don't feel like it because morning because someone i'm gonna wake up and i'm gonna and i'm gonna be like oh okay that's nice all my like i don't have to stare at that laundry pile like like anymore like or i don't know like that kind of connection like that like you know realizing that there's different parts of there's different parts of you that and there's diff like you're you know and the relationship between the different versions of you like like like if you're in conflict with your in you're in conflict with yourself in like a major way like that like that there's going to be uh problems of yeah and i i don't know like i also my also concept was like uh like i we are all like we were stressed or like we've taken stress and we break in different ways but we break in the same like predictable ways like or like you know for for chloe was you know alcohol and earlier you know cocaine and stuff like that and for for me for me like it was a little bit that but more so like i'll get like anxious and you know like anxiety and depression will be my like i'm more of like an internalized kind of like that that's where i break like that's how i break and it's not um and that's how and that you're like alcohol and substances and you know like anger was that's
Speaker 1how you broke yeah wow and i guess what i'm thinking about is just reflecting on your immense capacity for compassion as someone who doesn't have alcoholism in their family don't really know much about it but here's this person they're really struggling and you can even see these separations of night chloe and morning chloe and the only way they can communicate is and you know i'm just like a tornado of chaos not understanding fully how because it's just like i love you i still love you and at the time i loved you then that in that fiercely deep way and i would watch myself sneak alcohol in your apartment i knew where it was hidden you didn't know it was there and it would feel awful and that question of how can i do this to someone i love would come to my mind yeah but it's like i never thought about making the relationships or being able to see it from like a compassionate point of view for myself yeah it's just i just sat there and was like you know i almost kind of loved it right when you'd fall asleep i knew that it was hidden in that side table on my side and how to open it quietly how to open it quietly how to tuck the can in just so it would be hidden if you immediately open the door a little crap like that and i'd sip it and i'd look at you and i'd be like god oh well almost like oh wow but then like
Speaker 2no it's there well i mean like i want to talk about that but before that like i i think um like the you mentioned the compassion it wasn't and it wasn't like it was it's not like it was totally it was not like it was this pure com like this pure compassion like like i i saw in you a dark like like i saw similar things in in like i recognized myself in you in like a lot of ways and like i saw like the reasoning and like the the like the way that you know that you're you know at like addict's mind kind of was like was like dealing with all this pain and in this like disappointments and and ray like in all these feelings and i saw like a like a dark twist a black like a a version of me a version of me that when thing if things got like worse in a drastic way like like like i saw the same i saw different versions of this of the same things that were in me and i was like and so like i so like i and i and i i think i think i also like saw i don't know i i think that's kind of i i think really i realized that like i were there's not there's not you're not like a separate thing that like that i can say like oh no you like that that's not that's not me like that's somewhat that's something else like i don't have to like it's like oh like i could end up in like as dark a scenario given the right environment and the right like the right situation and like the the the and a lack of support and
Speaker 6you know that kind of thing so it's hard not to compare ourselves to normal people to be like you're so fine and i'm so wrong but yeah that's me thinking i'm special well i mean like that that
Speaker 3the time it was happening no no i am special like my wife hated me for a long time right and that's how could you not right yeah you're one minute i'm crying on her on her arms and telling i don't want to live this way anymore and the next i'm out disappearing for three days like what how do you deal with that how do you love somebody like that right it's it's difficult in the moment you know so what were some of the things that you did to try and help and then ultimately like what did you learn and how and then what happened i guess
Speaker 2uh well i mean we i i had some some like uh positive experiences with psychedelics like so like and i did my research on that and try i probably like we probably did them to like an irresponsible degree but i like it but like i was but the intent was there to do it in like a healing in a healing way self-exploration kind of way um but yeah that that that was that was part of it and then did you go to a retreat or something or you just did it like in your apartment we just we just did it like i downloaded i like had uh we you know i had some i was doing a lot of research about it i like about it at the time um we were just trying to do like nature things and i tried to like music music yeah having some good like there's a john hopkins puts out this put out this like playlist of uh the music i think i listened to it on ketamine one time yeah
Speaker 1well it's supposed to activate it it was and like um what did you learn the thing is there are certain revelations and things that came out of some of those trips that i still hold very dear today so i am grateful and i do think that psilocybin can work wonders on the mind but i know that the last time i think it was like it was still it ended up being thanks to me not that positive an experience i brought up my mom again and the thing of it was i was sober from alcohol and cocaine at the time we did those mushrooms but my behavior was such that like andrew had to ask me he's like have you been drinking because honestly the way you're behaving right now and like i remember being like a little disheartened that even mushrooms if i'm not dealing with the stuff that's inside of me it doesn't matter the substance it's gonna bring out this angry entitled self-righteous person who just like one flick of the switch one moment one shroom too many and i go click and suddenly everyone is my enemy and i know it and it's so and then it also can like be that
Speaker 2bring out this grandiosity kind of oh yeah like uber theatrical on mushrooms oh my god but yeah what what like what i mean like i i i was what how did i help i like i i organized i like i did all the organizational things that that that was like so difficult i made sure she would go to like the i would go with her to meetings at the women's college hospital i would
Speaker 1hooked me up with alan hooked me up with dr lease who now is dr dagger um you oh oh my gosh yeah took to the hospitals number of hospital trips number of hospital trips i
Speaker 2remember once where you were like you were you relapsed and like you were like i don't know this i don't know this was probably close to like that but i remember like finding like you you were like really drunk and you were like uh like off the grid and i like i remember trying you picking up you were trying to walk on like a bus somewhere like in north on like north york center or something or not north york center like you were somewhere like trying to find you like somewhere in the city and it was raining and you were blackout and like um and then i and like also like yeah i had i'm not sure like like what like i'm sure but the the kind it's it it also was there's like a bunker there's a little bit of a bunker mentality that that kind of comes up in that situation where you're like you're not you're like you know she could by uh one day could be like she could be like most loving like person in the world and then the next day like but like the wrong thing set her off like it could it could be that so you kind of get like it it's like you lose the feeling of safety you're walking on eggshells you're walking on eggs on eggshells and and and that and um and then like my i like i and then a lot of this is during covid so like i'm i'm like i'm like basically like i got nothing else going on i'm like i'm folk i'm like let's let's like what's what's the how do i how do i how can i how can i support like you or like how can i like how can or like not even support but like like i'm my my thought like because of like this like like this these like safety like these highs and lows and like in and there's things like my like my thoughts were like very like chloe centric like what um and like so like not like uh learning how to take care of myself yeah self-care goes out the window yeah self-care goes out the window it's a little bit survival mode for parts of it but you also helped when it came
Speaker 1to like okay i've really got to find a place to go um you would sit and help me write down all of the research that we find on google these are the numbers you got a call encourage me to make the phone call but otherwise my my sadness over the fact that it had all come to this was so much that he had to do most of the lifting when it came to the actual like research because i'm just there kind of like no i don't if i if i do it then it's real but also andrew knew who to call when i was not in when he would like catch me with more alcohol he knew to call my sister justine who i lost in 2024 but she was also an alcoholic yeah and so just like little things like
Speaker 2that those are the things that stand out i remember guilt like uh remember when you like i can't remember like what the details are but like i think you were at west toronto western and then you like like you weren't going to go to like the you were supposed you're supposed to go to like the what was the name of that um women's own women's own yeah supposed to go to women's own but you were like like getting you were like you were like drinking you got kicked out of a bar earlier yeah and then like i was just like all right we're just gonna like they can't take you for another couple hours and you want it i'm like i like and you're like you're like insistent that you're gonna drink and yeah and like i'm just like hanging out or i'm just hanging out there and it's like well we we should we should end if you want i'll like i'll come and you're like it's like 11 o'clock also like what are you where are you gonna where are you gonna drink or like uh and you try to go to the bar where you've just been kicked out of it they're like no no get out no get out and then yeah so i was kind of i was like i kind of was kind of like that like a physical embodiment of her of her like of like that guilt of like the guilt of the like oh like i shouldn't be doing this i think what yeah um i think like i don't know what i remember like you said that remember that like you were up at um uh your friends uh uh up north like and you were and like it was like an hour walk from the this is a later relapse this is oh oh and oh yeah yeah yeah up in caledon
Speaker 1this is pretty close to my last drink ever yeah yeah and i was really ill and i called you yeah i remember that and you were like well what are you gonna do yeah i i remember like thinking like
Speaker 2just like have building as many like uh one idea i was proud of was just building as many off-ramps as possible to like like okay yeah you're gonna go get a drink but like you know what if you don't decide if you decide not to like on the way don't like all the black like trying to break up the black and white thinking try to like give like have like the like okay well if you're if you're you know there's there's always like a way to kind of go off this right like one like you know like if you decided to do this or if you you know uh if you you like it doesn't have to be like uh like you're you're having out literally an hour walk to the liquor store like does it yeah like do you have like you don't have to like you can like rethink things along the way like you don't have to like once you've committed you're like i'm just a hundred percent like down for this like you know allow allow your own like kind of you know give yourself as many like off-ramps as possible i guess yeah like hope there's more than
Speaker 1one answer to this problem yeah or even just jogging that brain to be like think about all of the ways it's almost like taking like alcoholics love to be like sneaky and manipulative but it's like how can you be sneaky and manipulative like against your own instincts or your own impulses
Speaker 2that'll work i remember like uh like i wasn't i never tried to catch like i knew that you were sneaking around like that you were sneaking alcohol i mean like i didn't know like i didn't know like officially but i made never i never made an attempt to like catch you yeah like i was i told you i told you that like i was like i kind of i feel like i felt i don't know if this was but like instinctually i think i was like you're getting some enjoyment from from from like the fact that like i'm beating you at this thing and i'm like i'm not even trying to play like yeah this is kind of you can you can yeah i mean like also the what what i mean i think like uh addicts or like like they think that they think that like they're this they can like fake it that they think that like they're not the same person like from before to after when clearly yeah the
Speaker 1outside your inner isms your voice so much of you and so like i learned i learned that i learned at
Speaker 2some point that like if i'm just like feeling shitty and nervous then like she's probably
Speaker 3drinking interesting yeah yeah we think we can hide it right like well from everybody and uh you know i was thinking about this the other day but i had this experience with benzodiazepines a lot which act on the same receptors as alcohol but the thing with benzos when it used to happen to me is uh i you would get so high and you would think that you were sober on them this is the one drug that kind of makes you feel a sense of sobriety and i would go home and talk to my wife after a night of partying and taking benzos to come down and it was her talking like this and it was like a normal and i would talk like that at 8 in the morning yeah and she would start to film me after a while because i would i would literally think that i was normal she's like you're slurring your words no i'm not what are you talking about she would start to video me secretly and i would watch the video back it's like like who is this person i would i had no idea i thought i was hiding it from everybody yeah i remember one time um andrew
Speaker 1telling me how uh and of course this kind of thing like sticks he's like he's like i can usually tell within the first couple minutes of a phone call which chloe i'm talking to yeah even though i would call thinking like i haven't had that many yet i'm in a good place i'm just gonna like charm the pants off of him and go and hang out but he could already kind of like maybe hear it sometimes but yeah it's that belief
Speaker 2leaf that well it's like it's like it's also like a danger signal right it's like your gut it's like it's like it's like uh like okay all right this yeah and even if even if like even if you don't recognize it like explicitly or fully consciously it's still still like yeah and then learning learning that that meant learning learning that that meant that like oh something like something's up yeah but then but then also like sometimes i could tell that you were like drinking more during the phone call and he would talk for a long like we like to talk over high i'm gonna i'm gonna smooth this situation over uh i can talk my way out of this situation just through more just through more me you know it's a side it's a sideshow you're literally
Speaker 3spinning plates oh yeah it's exhausting it gets exhausting so okay walk me through the was he there on the last day that you went no he was not
Speaker 1there we had not been dating for a time now and to get there but to go back another way that he helped there was you know he's hitting a limit i'm hitting a limit is building to this i'm supposed to go to like a sort of shelter or place down on richmond street i want to say by the paramount theater scotia bank whatever it's called now and um i'm drinking i like try to get in this place of course all it takes is like one thing to be a little too difficult and i just go oh i guess leave and i get in this cab and i drink tequila in the cab and the cab driver catches me and he goes okay and i'm like i just got to go back to andrew's what else am i going to do i try i told him i try i tried so he like takes me back to andrew's but i give him this like so much money because otherwise he's gonna like call the police or whatever and i'm outside your door this is what i remember anyway i'm outside your door i'm trying to find your keys to get the fuck back inside um thinking to myself like good i'll take a little break i'll get more alcohol but you're there and you open the door because you can hear me being a fucker and i'm like okay i'm gonna go to the on the other end of it and you just this look on your face was just okay and it was like that's it you're just like yeah you're like called the uber you got an uber with me yeah you took me to the fucking hospital you're like this is it and i was like is this over you're like i don't know i don't know i'm not answering any of your questions yeah is it over are you gonna leave me like always every time it's just like like just like run away with that until the consequences come and then it's oh my god i just remembered what i matter like what i care about yeah but now it's too late but i had like my the one and only true blue really severe long drawn out psychotic break where i thought i was in an episode of superstore i could see the people from the show there like total hallucination auditory visual wild like very very vivid real and they were like strapping me into a wheelchair and i just kept trying to escape and cackle in the lobby of this hotel or whatever lobby because um because i thought i was like a part of this episode where we're creating a distraction yeah and took me a long time to even like tell andrew that story because i was like i was so embarrassed actually it didn't take me as long as i thought it would because i like ended up at women's own which is a treatment center by the way yeah this is the detox right a detox center and um at some point it was just sort of like really the beginning of the end certainly i'd had i had more relapses in me but i know from my story that this was where things started to change i met like a nurse in that hospital who in a moment said like i know exactly what this is you can do this i have seven years you can do this it was like really incredible but um but yeah but the break i talked to andrew andrew goes to berlin there had even been talk of me potentially going with you because i had been able to maintain some semblance of sobriety but then that quickly fell away you went to berlin anyway but you would call me from berlin while i was in a detox center and the way that that helps an alcoholic like me especially after just being through what i considered to be my most humiliating episode of thinking i was in that episode of superstore in public like the fact that i was in that episode of superstore in public i was like i was in that episode you were like off on this fabulous trip but you didn't forget about me i still mattered as a person yeah you still checked in because you're like you're probably sad lonely scared but the fact that it was like you shared pictures of the beautiful things you saw you treated me like a normal person in a bad situation yeah and that helps in ways that are priceless like invaluable yeah this is keeping that self-esteem what little is left even slightly intact enough for me to make a small effort to make something of my life the thing that that does to just interject because
Speaker 3i had a woman on sitting on the couch here that reminded me her husband was doing similar things it shows you that like this is what life is yeah right like this is you're you're you're missing out on this right now but it's not a it's not a sort of like you're missing out you idiot it's not a it's not a condescending thing it's like this is what you could have if you
Speaker 1just start to recover and even that person being like i'd like you to be here even though you treated me like crap and you know fun to be around when you do yeah yeah that's amazing
Speaker 2yeah it's amazing thing to do for someone yeah i think i think yeah i mean like i think i was like somewhat aware not like i don't know i always i was treated you like a person like yes i i think i also was when you were talking about that i remember i went i attended like one alanon meeting like uh during that time i think uh i got the idea from you're another friend of yours um i can't remember her name uh cassidy is oh yeah yeah yeah this is another normie friend who also was like but she but she is like familiar with like the she was like yeah uh she and uh anyways they had the i remember like the the line that that uh spoke to me so much was was the which was uh like i asked the moderator or the chair chair um and it's like in your experience like what what what and she had like a story that would that was yeah beyond like what i could even fathom but he's like what what in your experience like leads people to get better and she's like honestly just losing things like is yeah is like that's the yeah and and like that real i mean like it gave me the that one also gave me the the i was gonna say courage but also just the understand just like the belief that like okay like that like uh my like i she won't like either i'm not not in control of like what she does after like after after like i let go of her like after i like after but like the like i if i end this relationship or like then like that's that who knows it might it might help it might be the one thing it might be i say that
Speaker 3to people all the time by staying with this person you could be preventing another rock bottom that they need to hit right you could be preventing another rock bottom that they need to hit you could be i love that it's so simple or get someone to help losing things yeah you're like well i know it's going to hurt her if i walk away just losing things that you that you know there's a thing in our then in the literature that says a definition of rock bottom is when the thing you just lost or the thing you're about to lose is of greater value to you than alcohol like this you're about to lose something or you just lost something that means more to you than alcohol kids family whatever right yeah so um we gotta land this plane here um i guess where are you guys at today like yeah talk about like how did you mend this relationship i know you probably can't do that quickly but yeah like how did that mend um andrew's
Speaker 1willing to stick around and he's a fighter i can do oh yeah yeah this guy um real amazing i mean
Speaker 2i like i like i prefer endurance sports it's a marathon so is recovery so yeah like all the
Speaker 3people out there that are listening that are dealing with a loved one and like you're a fight fighters yeah this is not easy yeah my wife my parents and we're sorry oh my god but um yeah okay
Speaker 1so i um i definitely wanted to get back with andrew red i wanted to mend things i ended up meeting someone else tried that and all just remained honest um and that didn't end up working out and i still have this like love for andrew of course and i have to be honest with myself and ask how much of this love is like you really want to be with this person or how much of it is that like it will signify to me that i that i made it in the end or like i didn't lose it all i'll see or like i'm better now it's like how much of it was him how much of it is are you in love with your recovery how much like but i'm so incredibly grateful that andrew stayed at all because he certainly didn't give him any reasons to by the end there and um and just remained honest
Speaker 2and like remained close um and and also our like our like the gym routine that we like we like we each other once we see each other in like a healthy in a healthy like setting of us getting better and like i know and shout out to our trainer trainer d our trainer d we told him we talked about him on the podcast today we told him we'd talk him yeah yeah but it's hard because he's working but yeah just just like uh honesty and like we like each other like yeah there's quite a lot
Speaker 1so like good humor and like and just real love yeah and eventually and frankly and frankly like
Speaker 2uh for for all the difficulty that that she went through and for all the difficulty that i went through it in that like it was also a transformative experience for my life and like like i would like i i found i'll try to make this quick but like the but like i i found that like my life was going downhill in a pernicious slow way and her life was going downhill in a in a dramatic way and like seeing that like and dealing with that and realizing like the opportunities that that seeing all the opportunities for like a better life that she was like you know disregard like you know passing by realizing that that kind of applied to me too kind of informed me of like gave me the push to like make some changes in my life as well so i think that we're always going to i mean no matter what we're no matter what happens we're always going to be like a part of the some like the biggest perhaps some of the one of the biggest moments or biggest like periods and most transformative periods in our lives so that's that's something that you can't that nothing can change you can't buy that you can't yeah it's priceless yeah honestly like i love andrew
Speaker 1platonically just in that universal all-encompassing way and he and i are both in relationships now but just remain friends i got really lucky yeah thanks so much for coming down
Speaker 3and getting vulnerable guys i appreciate it this felt awesome it's a beautiful thing i mean recovery can trick addiction can trickle out and hurt the people we love but so can recovery too right and then so i appreciate that you have that perspective now it's beautiful man yeah thanks thank you
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