Love Is No Defense | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

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See full terms at mintmobile.com. Hi, everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an eight-episode anthology, which means it's going to be a lot of fun. And it's going to be a lot of fun. And each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal Secrets and Lies. And you can watch it every Sunday at 10 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, 9 p.m. Central. Please check it out. Earlier this season, we went through Saskia's divorce trial. We talked about all the hurdles that Saskia had to overcome, all the insults she had to endure just to end her marriage. But I want to go back to that trial for a second, because there's one more moment you need to hear. It's the devil in the details. What's on the screen here is Vendance Exhibit 3. This is audio from the middle of the show. This is audio from the middle of the divorce trial, during Mike's cross-examination. Saskia's attorney began by quoting Mike's initial divorce filing. Well, those were false statements, correct? Those are not false statements. Well, we know that not all of the acts were consensual, right? I maintain they were consensual. Absolutely. Remember, by this point, Mike had already pled guilty to rape in criminal court. But here he was in the divorce trial, stating that all of his sexual encounters with Saskia were consensual. Saskia's attorney couldn't understand it. He pulled up the transcript from Mike's guilty plea. And in fact, you were asked in this guilty plea by Judge Cummings if you are pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty. Do you remember being asked that question? Uh, yes. And what was your response to that question? I pled guilty. Because you were guilty, right? That's right. Yes. Yes. So, I'm struggling with your previous testimony that all acts would be consensual, but you would be found guilty of rape. How is that? Well, I think, first of all, I think you would kind of bifurcate some of, or have separate parallel discussions with some of these different topics. There's one thing about the consensual use of pornography, the consensual acts of taking photographs and videos. Mr. Levengood. The judge interrupted him. So, I would say. I'm going to cut you off. Okay. So, you maintain that all acts, all acts between you and Ms. Inwood were consensual. Okay. Your plea agreement was that you were pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty of rape. They can't both be true. So, the question is. Which one is true? I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 5, Episode 8, Love is No Defense. The judge allowed Mike a 15-minute break to talk with his attorney. When the court reconvened, Soski's attorney asked him again. How can it be true that you pled guilty to rape of the defendant, but that all of the acts between you and the defendant were consensual? So, I think this is an important point. So, to try to explain better. So, based on discussions with my attorneys and my understanding, they're explaining to me. The statute of rape and the definition of rape, and specifically around the use of force. You'll remember that at the time, Maryland had a law on the books. It was legal to rape your wife if she was unconscious, unless force was used. My attorneys explained to me, there's no specific amount of force that is required. And force becomes a very subjective thing. State prosecutors could only charge Mike with rape in the moments where they could argue he used force. But the examples of force that they identified weren't slam dunks. The state specifically says the force in these videos, as your honor will see, is force such as moving a leg while unconscious. By the time of his divorce trial, Mike had clearly learned a lot about the marital exemption to rape. And he was using it to distance himself from his own guilty plea. Mike told the divorce judge that the whole criminal case against him was based on a technicality. Under the law, the only thing he did wrong was move his wife's leg. So, I absolutely pled guilty to that act of moving her leg while she was unconscious, semi-conscious. I pled guilty to something that I did do, and that I recognize is the act of moving her leg while she was unconscious, semi-conscious. And I did that, and I admit to that. I think from out of the criminal setting, right, in kind of a common, if you will, place, environment, I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her. Mike didn't believe in his heart that he raped Saskia. We're going to come back to him and let you in on what he's up to today, in the next episode. But before we get to that, we need to talk about why Mike argued this, that raping his sleeping wife wasn't rape. And the reality is, the law said it wasn't. The state was able to prosecute Mike, but they knew it was on a technicality. Prosecutors only charged him with three counts of rape and one count of attempted murder. attempted rape, despite there being so many videos. And it's a big part of why they agreed to give Mike an 18-month plea deal. The law said what it said. It wasn't raping your wife if she was unconscious. So Mike got off easy. It's 100% a case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice. That's Debbie Feinstein. She's chief of the Special Victims Division at the Montgomery County State's Attorney's Office in Maryland. She supervised the prosecutors on Mike's case. Back in 2018, when they were just beginning to build the case, Debbie knew. There were many, many, many more counts of rape that we could have charged him with. She watched those videos. She saw what Mike did to Saskia. She could not consent. She could not be amenable to what was happening. Given the fact that she was physically helpless and mentally incapacitated. It's just those two things cannot be true at the same time. And yet, in the eyes of the law, both things were true. Saskia was consenting, even though she was completely knocked out. According to the law in Maryland, she consented the day she signed her marriage certificate. The marital exemption to rape, could be seen as a legal loophole. But that's not quite accurate. Because laws like this have been around for hundreds of years. They were built into the legal institution of marriage. It comes from the common law of England in the 1600s, when women were chattel. They were possessions. So once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted to the wife, because she was like a table. Your horse, your teapot, that's chattel, that's property. That's Lori Ruth. I am the public policy director at the Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence. It's a coalition that represents all the domestic violence service providers in the state. Lori has dedicated her career to helping survivors of intimate partner violence. For decades, she provided direct legal support. And today, she lobbies for bills in the state legislature. Lori first heard about Maryland's marital exemption around 2008. At the time, she was the legal director at a women's rights nonprofit. A call came through to her office. The woman on the other line was in the car. She was driving on the Baltimore Beltway. And she said, my husband is drugging me and having sex with me and filming it. This woman, like Saskia, was incapacitated when her husband was in the car. And her husband assaulted her. And I stood up from my desk. I said, you have to pull over. Like, you can't be driving down the street telling me that story. And I said, that is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that. But then Lori looked into it. Come to find out they're married. Come to find out here we are in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023. He probably was. He was allowed to do that. According to the law, she hadn't been raped at all. Over the years, Lori never stopped thinking about that woman. You hear stories like that and you think somebody needs to be focused on this for the betterment of our society and the citizens and the women and daughters and girls in the state of Maryland. But here's the thing. This law wasn't just a joke. It wasn't affecting people in Maryland. In 2018, when Mike committed these crimes, marital exemption laws existed all over the country. In red states like Ohio, Michigan, Nevada, Mississippi, Oklahoma. And also in blue states like California, Rhode Island, and Minnesota. And all across the country, there have been people working to end these legal exemptions. People like Stefan Turkheimer. We want the law to resume. We want the law to respect individuals. We want the law to respect survivors' experience. We want the law to create the rules for how we want society to behave. And that's not this. Stefan leads the public policy team at RAINN, the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network. It's the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization. Stefan's job is to look at laws around the country and see which laws need to be changed to protect survivors. I'm a lawyer. I'm a lawyer, right? But sometimes when you read a law, you're like, this can't be correct. Let me go check. Let me see if this is actually being used. When he learned about marital exemption laws, that was his first reaction. Maybe these laws were relics of an older time, never actually enforced. But it turned out that that was not what was happening. Straight up, in Ohio, people that were being sexually assaulted by their husbands through drugs or other means were calling the police. And the police were saying, That's not a crime. That's what was happening. Stefan's met women like Saskia all across the country. Women who could never get full justice for the crimes committed against them. The thing about a law like this, the black letter rule, is that it's not just like what cases can't go forward. It's that every single survivor can see this and be like, the law doesn't recognize my experience. They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection. The more cases like Saskia's he heard about, the more angry he was. The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law and let them be outraged with you. These are people whose minds can be changed. These are people that want to change laws. That's why they got the job. And yet, convincing these legislators is no simple task. Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy. In Saskia's case, the prosecutors told us they felt like their hands were tied. Debbie Feinstein wanted to file more charges against Mike. But because of the marital exemption to rape, she couldn't. This case spoke volumes because it was exactly why this law didn't make sense. In this case, he got a substantially reduced sentence of incarceration, really because the meat and potatoes, the heart of the case, was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape. For Debbie, having to charge Mike for rape was a big deal. Having to charge Mike on a technicality was a sign of a larger problem. Even though Mike took the plea, she couldn't let this case go. The ones where we can't get to the full right outcome, they live within us. But they also drive advocacy, which is what happened in this case. If you've ever tried to find a psychiatrist who takes your insurance, you know how frustrating it can be. Long wait lists, no availability, or finding out they don't accept your insurance at all. That's why I'm excited to tell you about Talkiatry. 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That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y dot com slash betrayal to get matched in minutes. Talkiatry.com slash betrayal. Ready to feel energized? Energized and in control again? At Orderly Meds, we have helped thousands just like you take charge of their health with a GLP-1. If you've tried dieting, exercising, and relying on willpower and nothing seems to stick, then it might be time to talk to a licensed provider about your options. That's what Orderly Meds is for. This fall, choose healthier habits for yourself with a visit to orderlymeds.com. You don't need to visit with a physician in person to become eligible. Orderly Meds has a simple virtual process. Connect with licensed medical professionals, professionals who can determine whether a GLP-1 treatment may be appropriate for you wherever you are. Get started from the comfort of home online. Change your habits and consider a new approach to feeling your best. Visit orderlymeds.com to learn more. Orderlymeds.com. Gain confidence and choose better habits this fall. I'm Melissa Jeltsin. and in my new podcast, What Happened to her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories about women whose deaths were too quickly ruled a suicide. She was starting to get worried and get scared for her safety. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck because by all rights, I should be dead. Cases that everyone else called closed. They can't convict her, right? Like, she has so much evidence. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't protect her, that didn't see her. No child should ever experience that. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it and he got a year. You never know who that devil is because he's wearing a disguise. Sometimes it's a police uniform. Listen to what happened to her. Listen to her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much. If I can fight, I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. In the state of Maryland, people were working for years to overturn the marital rape exemption. But these kinds of laws, laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are not the same laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are difficult to overcome. To rally people to make a change, it often takes a case of massive injustice. Saskia's case was exactly that. It was a case with overwhelming evidence. Dozens of videos, which Mike streamed to thousands of people. But he was only sentenced to 18 months. It's the kind of story that could get lawmakers' attention. Here's prosecutor Debbie Feinstein again. So, in 2020, just after Mike went to jail, Debbie went to Annapolis. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori, and representatives for the state legislature. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori, and representatives for the state from the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault to present a bill in the Maryland legislature. A bill that could overturn the marital exemption once and for all. We got a recording of that legislative session. A representative from Saskia's county introduced the bill. I'm Delegate Charlotte Crutchfield from Montgomery County, and I am honored to be able to testify today on House Bill 4. Also known as Love is No Defense to Sexual Crimes. Debbie testified at length. And even though Saskia wasn't there in person. Her case was the highlighted case that we brought to Annapolis. Here's Debbie testifying before lawmakers. In Montgomery County, we had a case within the last couple of years. And in that case, a spouse raped his wife repeatedly, actually on camera, while she was mentally ill. But even with the example of Saskia's story, the bill got a lot of pushback. Debbie and her colleagues were trying to eliminate marriage as a defense to all sex crimes. First, second, third, and fourth degree. So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape, and then we have fourth degree sex offense, which is an unconsentitude touching, which could be a graze on the breast, a graze on the buttocks, or the genital area. Some legislators were concerned about what the bill would mean for those lower-tier offenses. What you're saying is under this bill, the husband would have to get consent. That I couldn't roll over at night and just put my hand on a bikini area. I would have to say, excuse me, he's a little bit cold. He's just trying to spice it up a little bit. He rolls over. Now she can say, I'm going to prosecute you for a fourth degree sex offense. That was so disturbing to hear that come out of legislators' mouths. Lori Ruth, the public policy director you heard earlier, felt the same. You stare at them and you think, what kind of marriage do you have that you actually think that's going to happen? But lawmakers, like all of us, buy into myths about rape accusers. Some think that women are likely to bring false allegations, and that they'll use those allegations to their advantage. The most common response we see is, how can we be sure that she's telling the truth? How can we know that she's not lying, often followed by, to get a leg up in a custody suit? That is a real barrier to getting bills passed. Representatives worried that this change would overwhelm the courts. We're going to be swarmed with defendants if this law passes. Another advocate, Dorothy Lennig, spoke directly to those concerns. I actually find it kind of shocking that the public defender is going to argue that they would be swamped with cases. I find it shocking and kind of sad if they're saying that at this point, the only reason we're not protecting women who are accusing their husbands of sexually assaulting them is because of this law. But ultimately, these concerns were enough to kill the bill. To me, the fact that a bill like this could fail in 2020 doesn't make sense. The government wants people to get married. And yet, with this law, signing a marriage certificate means limiting your rights. As Debbie said to us, we're basically penalizing someone for being married. It defies logic. I asked Lori Ruth about this. I don't know that it has to do with logic. There is a deep, deeply-seated misogyny at play. Logic? I don't think so. It's also not a partisan issue. I think the rest of the country views this as being, quote-unquote, very liberal. But I think if you spend any time in Annapolis, you learn that it's not as simple as that. We have actually had legislators say this, like, you women get one bill this year. Let's say we've got a bill that says, we've got five that are about child support, domestic violence, something else. They'll say, you get one. Stephan from RAINN has seen these attitudes in other states, too. When you're presenting to an individual legislator on a bill, there are a few signs you can see about whether or not they're listening to and buying into what you're arguing. One of the main ones is whether or not they reference their granddaughter, or their grandson. If they talk about their granddaughter, they're thinking about the survivor. If they reference their grandson, they're thinking about the offender. You hear that these people made a mistake or whatever else, something shouldn't ruin their life, all this kind of other stuff. All things that are not backed up in stats or stories. But you still have to deal with them, because these are people that can stop your bill. And they do stop your bill. They do stop bills all the time. Often before the bills can even get a full debate. The bills that do make it to the floor are put through the ringer. This is especially true when it's only people like Stephan, Lori, or Debbie testifying. When there are no survivors speaking on the bill's behalf. Here's Lori again. Sometimes the pushback to us is, well, I know you professionals are talking, but where are the people that this really happens to? Why didn't you bring anybody? Isn't there somebody who could speak about this? And you want to say, do you not understand? It's not that easy to stand up and talk about the most awful things that have happened in your life. life to a big room full of people. Asking survivors to testify is no small thing. When the bill in Maryland was first introduced, Saskia was in the middle of her divorce proceedings with Mike. I was a shell of a person. At that point, I couldn't have gone through the steps of describing what had happened. No other survivors like Saskia came forward either. And yet, all of the experts we talked to for this episode agreed. So much of the time, it's survivor testimony that gets these bills over the line. Here's Stephan from RAINN again. People don't really get motivated by stats, not really. They usually get motivated by people and stories and how they make them feel. The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do. In Maryland, when the bill failed, advocates were disappointed. But they weren't ready to give up just yet. And survivors wouldn't stay quiet for long. This law treats spouses as objects, not people. This is your law. And this is rape. Getting started is fast, easy, and happens virtually through telemedicine from the University of Arizona. Licensed professionals gain confidence. Choose healthy habits this fall. I'm Melissa Jeltsin, and in my new podcast, What Happened to Her, I'm bringing you new stories and conversations every week. Stories of survival. The only difference between me and her, frankly, was a little bit of luck, because by all rights, I should be dead. These stories all start in the same place, with a woman failed by a system that didn't believe her, that didn't believe her. That didn't protect her, that didn't see her. And we were babies. She did all of these brave things and came out and spoke about it, and he got a year. Listen to What Happened to Her on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Iwano. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGiulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anywhere fighting. That is wild. Now in my 30s, being the founder of New Shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say about it. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. I don't really care. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to Scam Goddess on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2020 in Maryland, the bill to end the marital exemption failed. But Debbie Feinstein, the prosecutor in Montgomery County, couldn't forget about this law or about Saskia's case. It lit a huge fire under me, under my team, and we wanted to do whatever we could to change the law. So in 2021, she and other advocates brought the bill again. But again, it failed. The same legislators spoke up, determined to keep it from passing. Isn't the whole purpose of the marital exception is that we don't end up in court talking about who said what in the marital bedroom? When the bill was brought for a third year, the same objections resurfaced. It seemed like the marital exemption might be the right thing to do. The law of the land forever. But then came 2023. A lot was different about that year. New advocates brought new stories of why the law needed to be repealed. Because of the spousal defense, I was unable to prosecute this man for raping an unconscious woman. More men testified on behalf of the bill. We must break the cycle of violence and close this vicious loop. But there was one person's testimony, that stood out among the rest. It was a survivor's story. We're making the choice to omit her name for her privacy. My name is. I'm a sexual assault survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband. And under the existing law, what he did was legal rape. I could not respond verbally. I was physically or physically completely incapacitated. And it constituted consent. Because I was married, I had photographic and video evidence of my assault. And instead of my proof being used to prosecute my rapist, it proved his innocence. Because this chamber made my rape legal. This law treats spouses, as objects, not people. We are forced to satisfy sexual desires when we are deprived of strength and power. This is your law, and this is rape. You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past. And I'm charging each of you to do that. You've been entrusted with the power to protect your fellow citizens. And please, I implore you, make the right decision. Provide a path of healing and justice for all future victims like me. Thank you. This was the first time that a survivor of marital rape came before the legislature in support of this bill. Lori Ruth, the public policy advocate in Maryland, remembers her testimony well. Those legislators had to look her in the eye and hear an absolutely horrific story. Immediately, it was clear. The survivor's words broke through. I just want to say thank you. That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill. I've heard this bill a lot, too many times. And so I just want to say thank you for your willingness to step forward. Hearing this exchange, of a legislator thanking this survivor, reminds me of something Stefan said earlier. After four years, in May of 2023, legislators voted to end Maryland's marital exemption. The bill passed the House and the Senate without a single no vote. Today, the law that allowed Mike Levengood to get off easy no longer exists in Maryland. In the last five years, similar reforms have also passed in other states, including Ohio, Minnesota, California, Mississippi, and Rhode Island. But Stephan says the fight can't stop here. Are the laws progressing? Yes, the laws are progressing. Is the United States in a better state than it was five years ago? Yeah, it is. Is it a better state than 20 years ago? Yeah. Is it in better shape than a lot of other countries? It absolutely is. Is it where it needs to be? No. Five states continue to treat marital rape as a lesser crime. Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and Iowa. And still, in about half of the states in the U.S., rape continues to be defined in reference to physical force. Most of us don't know about these laws or even think about them until they affect us or someone we love. When Saskia first heard that the bill in Maryland had passed and that the marital exemption in her state had been overturned, I was like, finally. It makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that, not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it. But look how much damage has already been done. Changing the law doesn't change what Saskia lived through, and it's unlikely to change what Mike thinks. Saskia not only endured abuse, she endured this law. A law that told Mike that what he did wasn't rape. In the end, he may always believe he's innocent. I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her. On the next episode of Betrayal, we dive into where Mike is today. I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her. I just can't imagine. If you want to learn more about the laws in your state, RAINN has a database for that. Go to rainn.org slash betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. Click take action and select laws in your state from the drop down menu. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org slash betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24-7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at betrayalpod at gmail.com. That is betrayalpod at gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram. At BetrayalPod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our sub stack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Melchiorri. Additional support by Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dalvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mibe Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready to feel energized and in control again? 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