Love is Blind, Baby #2 & Postpartum Depression w/ Zack & Bliss

Thank you to Quince for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. Let me tell you, the seasons are changing. It's starting to be time that we can get out our denims again. We can get out our sweaters and there is no better place than Quince. So many of the things I'm constantly reaching for in my closet to lay her up, dress up, dress down, come from Quince because they have very, very high quality products. I'm talking 100% Mongolian cashmere. They have silk, organic cotton wool. They have those premium fabrics, but at an amazing price. Everything at Quince is actually priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands and that is because they work directly with ethical factories, hunting out the middleman so you're paying for high quality, not brand markup. Actually just last night Matt was telling me that he grabbed his shorts. I don't fit my clothes. I've been hitting the gym and so I need new clothes. He bought me Quince swim trunks that are really high quality. I wear them all the time when we go on the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see what she picks out from Quince for me next. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. With the khaki that I wear like literally every day. Yep those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from but if you had to guess they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their min section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them let them know that unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. We have the shortest engagement in love is blind history. No way. I think we met on a Tuesday and I proposed on a Friday. Zack and Bliss are best known from Netflix's Love Is Blind. A social experiment where singles date fall in love and get engaged without ever seeing each other. I was really acting from a place of fear. I had this deep connection with someone I still had never met and there were real obstacles that we were going to have to confront. After forming a deep connection with Bliss and the pods Zack proposed to another woman first only to realize that he made the wrong choice. If there's any karmic justice for him dumping me on TV then he got it at the honeymoon. When I gave birth it was like deep dark depression holding my daughter thinking about how her life would be if she didn't have me. Like I truly say that like she saved me throughout that process. Now married with a beautiful two-year-old daughter and another baby on the way. Zack and Bliss joined us to talk about heartbreak, post-partum depression and what really happens when the cameras stop rolling. With our story I really felt like they did a great job of telling it and I was I was quite frankly really shocked because we you know we don't get to see it until it airs. We see it with the rest of the world. I did not think they would show so much of my experience because you have to remember there's like five six different couples. Yeah, six different couples and so I'm thinking like you're just going to see and honestly you barely you only get to see a small amount but so much of my story and and and and her story really got shown and I thought they did a really good job of telling it as well as they could with the short amount of time they had. When you meet somebody new and they're they ask the the classic question how did you meet how do you describe how you met. You know it's so weird we just will be like oh yeah like we met like that we used to say before we were like allowed to like talk about it. Oh because there was a period of time where you like over a year yeah I was like around a year and some people have to wait like a year and a half luckily we only had to wait a year yeah year and a half a long time it's like you were at a wedding and his friends asking him like or some random person you knew from college was like oh how do you guys meet he was like in an experiment and he was like how did you actually meet he's like yeah in in an experiment because love is mine is technically an experiment that's kind of how they want you to like think about it when you're washing it too it's like a social experiment and it was the guy thought you were like totally being like a jerk and like not answering the question but now we actually just kind of say like oh yeah like we got married you know and love is blind people are like what like that's real and we I always think about how like our children are going to have like the most interesting crazy story to like tell about how we met seriously how does that even come about like you end up on a reality dating experiment show like how does that come about for me I got a voicemail and like I'm the type of person who has probably like 45 and like unlisted to voicemails like I never listen to my voicemails my phone's always on do not disturb but I like randomly listen to the voicemail and they're like oh we're doing like a documentary and see all and I was like oh whatever like a documentary okay and you know there's so many scams and things out there so like what do I know but I randomly called it back and I'm like oh have you heard of love is blind and I was like oh yeah I have like oh well we're like casting like we're to get my information like who submitted me for this and it's still a mystery to this day I have no idea they scouted you like I literally don't know you don't have any guesses like there's no family friends I asked them like who submitted me you know and they were like oh well we can't say I'm like what do you mean you can't say this is about me this is like my information you know like oh well like some people get it from like hair salons I'm like hair salons so like I asked my hair salons did you submit me that she was like no so I still don't know I asked my family and my friends and they're like no one I'm like okay they couldn't have just like gotten my phone number like randomly like someone had to give it to them so it's still a mystery you think they'd want to fess up right now exactly you don't need to re-ask everyone now but it's been like well okay you are so close to not going on the show both of us both of us it's actually pretty wild yeah what happened for me it was my sister that had nominated me for the bachelor at really yeah and so they had gotten the information through that I guess they kind of share information I don't know the bachelor had passed but apparently love is blind was interested and I didn't know what love is blind was I had no idea it just came out during COVID and that is right around when they reached out to me so apparently had become this big thing and I didn't know I had never watched reality TV and they called me and I was at a point in my life where I you know things were going well with my career and I really was just trying to find my person I knew I wanted to have a wife I knew I wanted to have a family and that was really my top priority at that point so I thought well this is I was either going to move to Austin Texas or I was going to move to Seattle because I was in central Washington and the dating the dating was pretty rough you know people say dating in Seattle's rough but he tried dating in winiachi washington I think it's like 40,000 wait that's like Abby small town she's a Quincy Illinois okay there's actually a town called Quincy that's like in Washington it's really near it's beautiful yeah so the people who reached out to me didn't know that I lived in central Washington they all they thought I was in Seattle so they they're like so when Angie pretty close to Seattle and I was like well it's like a two hour drive if that's close oh midwestern that's close so I didn't hear from them for like three months and then apparently such a long process you go like months without hearing anything from them and like the casting process but I really like genuinely thought that they were just like oh this dude's not in Seattle then but then ran I was in Austin Texas looking at the city to see if like hey this is where I want to move that and then I got a phone call and it was from the one of the producers who had interviewed me and they were like hey I really think that you are a good fit for this we'd love to you know move you along further and I was like oh okay that you guys kind of passed it's so funny because like he's so like I feel like his family and friends would be like Zach is the person that would go on a reality TV like 100% he's not shy doesn't get embarrassed about anything and I'm like the total opposite my family was like shocked that I was like willing to like go on this and I had just I had gotten out a relationship and I was like I was kind of like the why not mentality like what could happen like sure just go have this experience like nothing's probably going to come from it like whatever a lot of people don't even get shown on it so I was like oh whatever and it's funny because this is where we've ended up for like the op which is where very polar opposite and that like I'm more I don't like attention as much it's just really really funny that I ended up doing it and here we are there were so many miracles along the way that like that I mean I reached a point and this is kind of skipping ahead where I was just like I think I think God is telling me something here I think that there's there's a message and I'm not going to ignore that that's what really gave me the the faith that kind of take that leap one of the things that really gave me the faith but I didn't know about this until after we got married but you want to tell them what happened so they there was still when they were testing everyone for COVID if they were going on production in any way and I like had not had COVID the whole time that I got COVID like two weeks before I was supposed to leave for the trip and they come into your house and like test you and if you test positive like that's it like you're done and so like I like had like eight or nine days to like get rid of the COVID and It has negative for it, so it was like crazy 'cause sometimes you test positive for a long time. And somehow I tested negative. I like drank so much water and like, I don't know. It was like, oh, it was kind of like a lot of odd stack against us actually going. But yeah, everything was so serendipitous. - The day, the day before they were set to fly out. She had COVID all the way, like tested positive, all the way up to that. - All the way up to that. - They told like the day they tested me. - It was very lucky. - It was very lucky. - Wow. - Otherwise she wouldn't even have been there, and we never would have met. - Never. - That was crazy. - Zach, you had quite the redemption arc on the show. I don't know if you guys watched it or if you were like, oh, I don't want to watch it because it's like scary to relive all of that. Did you ever watch your season all the way through? - Oh, we did, yeah. - Did you watch it together? - Yeah, we like stayed up till midnight till I until it was released and like watched it. I think we wanted to like be aware, you know, and it's also like so cool to like see our story and all the ups and downs and everything in between. It was, it was pretty funny for me, but I think for you, if you were to be embarrassed, maybe that's the time you were. - Oh, you never get embarrassed, but. - There were quite a few moments that I was embarrassed to have. I'm just thankful not all of it made the. - Oh, not the cut. (all laughing) - You're so good. - But what did it make the cut that you're like, oh, glad that's staying off? - Well, you only see me sing once. You sing multiple times. - Oh, I sing the list the entire time we're in the pods. I serenaded her like every day. - You know, we couldn't have music. And so I was like, what am I gonna do without music this whole time? And I make me manage up to my family that there's gonna make the guys sing to me in the pods and he definitely delivered on that. (all laughing) - Yeah, yeah. I was actually told, and this is my thought because it was copyrighted music, right? That it wasn't going to make the cut, right? 'Cause they're like, if you're gonna play any music or sing a thing, just don't make it copyrighted. So I thought, okay, it's not gonna be in there. And I remember talking with someone about it and they had told me that me singing was not going to end up on the cut. - Maybe they were trying to just like make you not scared. - So when we watched it-- - Like, let it rip, but it's not coming. - Literally. - Oh my, I was like, no, no, no. (all laughing) I mean, yeah, I knew there was a chance I was gonna give it there, but yeah, that was a embarrassing moment. - Would you be willing to serenade us right now? (all laughing) - I feel like his voice was gotten better because he sings with our daughter all the time. - Wait, that's so sweet. What do you sing to your daughter? - Hey, Jude. - Hey Jude. - I sing Hey Jude to her. - Is there like a way you sing it to her? That's like specific, like in a lullaby form, you know? - No, I just think like she has memorized about 50 songs. And I picked this up, it was wild, I remember. Now she's kind of gotten more into improving. It used to be she would just sing 'em exactly how they are, now she'll change characters. And she has fun like playing around with the songs, but at around eight months I noticed that she was repeating the last word of every sentence when I would sing her songs to bed. And then I started to pause, and I realized she wasn't just mimic me, she hadn't memorized the words. And then I started to like pause longer and then fill it in. And she will be able to do like every other word. She can sing music by Zach Bryan, she can sing. - The Beatles, the Beatles, hey Jude is her favorite for some reason, she loves hey Jude. - Right now the ABCs are all so. - Oh, the ABCs. - She'll say your ex and I can't correct her. You know, you don't wanna correct these cute little things that they do, 'cause you wanted to last forever. - Mm, she sings sweet. - She sings hey Jude, she'll say hey Jude. - Hey Jude. - When skies are great, not gray. - No. - When she sings her by sunshine. - It's literally the best time. - How old is she now? - She just turned two. - Oh, she's wild and crazy, but so fun. - They're like, your second one's more gonna be more wild and like, really? (laughing) - Or if you're in for everyone. - No, we're in for it if that's okay. - What was it like? There's probably not many people in the world that like watch footage of them on a honeymoon with somebody else on like Netflix, you know? It's like watching that. How did you like talk through that? - I'm guessing probably some like frustration probably came up watching that back. - You know, honestly that's what I'm really grateful for that time period we had in between getting married and then it airing. Like we were able to talk through literally everything. Like she told me everything that happened. I told him everything that happened. I really feel like we were able to work through that like really well beforehand. I know there's other franchises where they like, we'll have a really quick turnaround. I think like the bachelor has a really quick turnaround and I'm like, in a way that's good but a way not because you're not able to settle into your marriage and settle into things like work things out, you know? Which I'm again really grateful for. You're not in the spotlight during that time. No one knows. So I think, you know, one thing about Zach, he's a really honest person and I really trusted him, which is why I was like felt confident enough to say, yes, at the altar, even after everything we went through. - Yeah. So I just, I knew, you know, there was no real surprises. I mean, obviously like seeing it visually is a different thing but I wasn't like surprised by anything because he was so honest. And honestly, like it was such like a, it was just so cringy. Like the way he was treated was so terrible and it was just so like hard to watch from like a person that I love like being treated that way rather than like a place of like anger, you know? - Yeah. - Or like jealousy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was really, I don't know. And it's honestly like if there was any karmic justice for him dumping me on TV, then he got it at the honeymoon and then there we go, we're good for even now, okay? - Well, you know, that was honestly, I felt like Jonah in the whale when I was in Mexico 'cause when we were in the pods, I, there were so many signs that Bliss was the person that I was supposed to be with. And maybe it wasn't clear to me in that moment like that I should take that leap, but I was really acting from a place of fear. And I had, and some of this I think maybe was subconscious and some of it was conscious, but with Bliss I was very afraid that we wouldn't work out. I had this deep connection with someone I still had never met in person and there were things that we had discussed, some of which you don't see that were real obstacles that we were gonna have to confront. One that doesn't really get explored deeply was that I have allergy induced asthma to animals and she has had a dog in a cat. Now we have two dogs in a cat. But I mean, it was bad. It was really bad. And I didn't know if we were-- - And they're like my babies at that point, you know? Like I was like, these are my children. And oh my gosh, like what the heck is happening here? - And when I told her about that, the response was not very good. - I was like, why is it happening to me? I was like, we'll get through it. I was like, and like honestly, I had come out earlier in our dates 'cause you date for like nine or 10 days, which seems so short, but it's so weird when you're in it. It feels so different. But I might have not even like continued on dating him, you know, 'cause like those are my babies. - Yeah. - And yeah, so there were things from my past that were kind of bringing fears up. And then I didn't really think that I was gonna be accepted by her family based on what she had told me about her family and my own experiences. I'd made some preconceptions about what you have to, though, you know, like you're talking to someone through a wall. And I think the level of connection that we had, I was really afraid that I was gonna break her heart and that she was gonna break my heart and that I didn't know how long that it would take to get over that. And a lot of people don't understand that everybody's dating everybody, right? Like, and I think when Love Is Blind first came out, people thought like, oh, this person's a player and they're like, 'cause you just see it for the first time and you're like, why is this person dating three people? - And they're only showing certain dates, they can't show everything. - Oh, got it, got it. - You start out dating 15 people. I mean, maybe that's a prerequisite for anyone who hasn't watched a show. - Yeah. On the first day, you cut that in half and then progressively as it goes along for about 14 days, you cut it down and down and down until you're either down to two people or three people. And then you can go all the way till the very end, dating that many people. And now it's been around long enough, people kind of understand, but it's kind of hard to understand how you can fall in love with multiple people that quickly or even fall in love with anyone that quickly. And the reality is just like the people who've made that show, they are experts. in love and connection and psychology. And they, if you follow the process, the way it's designed, they've already hand-picked people who are compatible and likely more than more people than are, you know, hopefully, right? Because love triangles are good television, right? Oh, gosh. And so you're facilitating an environment. They say it's like two to three. Like, you're compatible, super compatible with, like, two to three people. Because you answer, like, so many questions, like a ridiculous amount of questions and personality tests and all of these things out of the process of getting casted. Yeah. And then you're being vulnerable about things that are very intimate that you've probably never shared with anyone or, if you're doing the process, the way it's intended, or very few people. You're having really, really intimate, vulnerable conversations. And in fact, when I realized that, I almost left on the first day, because I don't know, I hadn't really contemplated it. Like, yes, I was looking for my wife. But I didn't think about having to open up about my vulnerabilities about my fears in front of the entire world. You know, things like losing my mother, I mean, I had had close friends that I had never talked to. We about that, and we'd been friends for five years. Never came up. The show really helped me actually become a lot more vulnerable as a person and changed me in that way. But going in, I was like, OK, if you want to find your person, you have to be vulnerable here. This is-- you've got to do it. And I decided that I was going to do that. Sorry, that kind of got a little bit of-- No, you're good. I'm glad you brought up vulnerability, because I've noticed watching you on the show and seeing you talk about that and talk about your mom and talk about, even just like the silly jokes you made when you opened up by saying, yeah, I'm a stripper. Just to kind of see how people would react. I guess my question for you is, do you think embracing that vulnerability was the right-- are you glad that you did that? Because you can't really ever take any of that back. You've opened yourself up in a really big way to so many people. And like you said, before you weren't even telling your own friends about these deep things. So how has being vulnerable changed you as a man and as a person? Yeah, I think about a lot. Vulnerability is the key to connection. And if you're looking for love, you can't get there without being vulnerable, because you have to show your true self. And until you've shown your true self, you're never going to have real love. And that means showing your fears, showing the things that you feel inadequate about. Those are the things that really connect people. And so I don't have any regrets about opening up and being vulnerable. And I think we need more vulnerability in the world. And I think that's really real strength. When you meet someone who's able to show you their weaknesses, that's someone who's strong. That's good. It's so interesting, because as someone who knows you just kind of post or during the experience and post it, I think you're very quick to be vulnerable with people now. I feel like it's not something you really struggle with anymore. And I think your family had never met a girlfriend before. It was a totally, I think, a total 180 that they saw from you, at least, from going from someone who was kind of more closed off to things to someone who was very open, very quickly with people. I was very private about my dating life. Yeah, like did not talk to any family about it, unless it was someone who was very serious. Thank you to KiwiCo for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. You guys summer is fast approaching. In fact, we're already here. And we need to find activities and ways to keep our boys entertained while still learning things that don't involve screens. That's what we're huge fans of KiwiCo. If you haven't heard of KiwiCo before, it's learning toys for kids delivered right to your doorstep. We have actually started using KiwiCo when we first had our first child. So we have been using their products for years. They also are great at encouraging kids to get outside and explore. And with the Summer Adventure series, kids receive six hands-on project kits with enriching and fun activities. KiwiCo creates offer a range of topics for each age with some summer adventure kits featuring playing with bubbles, exploring the stars or building things. I remember the first KiwiCo crate we ever got was those color contrasting cards, was black and white contrast cards. And now we have gone through so many different stages where now we're actually using like a lighted board with shapes and getting into building in like little kids' physics. It's really, really neat to see their learning bloom through KiwiCo. - Build the best summer ever with KiwiCo. Get $10 off on your Summer Adventure series at KiwiCo.com/Summer, promo code unplanned. That's $10 off your Summer Adventure at k-i-w-i-c-o. I do think vulnerability is strength. And I do think I think that's the only true, that's the, that's how you make the realist connection is through that vulnerability. The other factor though here is having an entire audience watching you date and getting gay. But I think you're right though, I do think vulnerability is strength. And I do think, I think that's the only true, that's how you make the realist connection is through that vulnerability. You get engaged and get married and then, or actually I'm sorry, I got ahead of myself, date, get engaged, call off the engagement, then get engaged again, then get married. And there was an article that came out recently, which kind of shocked me just like a couple days ago. Apparently there have been eight divorces, I guess, from the love of this blind franchise. And you guys are one of the, you know, few couples that it worked. And you know, you have baby number two on the way. Like so many good things are happening. I wanted to ask, why do you think so many divorces have happened from the love of this blind franchise? It's my, my first bag. I'll let you share yours in the book first. You know, I feel like divorce in like relationships ending happens, like even in the real world, outside of television and outside of experiences, experiments like this, I think, is it still 50/50? I'm not sure if it's still 50/50. But if it is, I mean, that's kind of somewhat of a reflection of what you see just through love is blind. Obviously, when you get married so quickly, it's difficult to cover everything. It's difficult to cover exactly how you plan to raise children. You might have really a big differences there that could potentially cause, you know, a marriage to end. There's just, it's just so much so quick. And I also think that the pressure of being in the public, I can definitely add to that. Like I kind of spoke earlier about how you have that time period in between of creating a really strong foundation. And sometimes that, you know, maybe that doesn't happen all the way. Like obviously we don't have like complete deep insights into why everyone got divorced and what exactly happened there. But my kind of take on it is there, when you watch people fall in love, it's like very romanticized. And there's these really high expectations of, oh my gosh, this is gonna last forever. This is like my favorite couple. This is going to, you know, it's going to be forever and ever. And in reality, like they're still human and they're still that kind of like 50, 50% chance maybe of ending in force. That's kind of my take on it. - Can I give you my take on why I think you guys have worked out? - Tell me. - So we, so actually some friends have worked out. - Wow. - What? - I want to hear it. - No, I'm so interested. - This is just my like outside of fidget, but I'm also, I'm just to do. Okay, so we actually, we're friends with Thorn and Ari from the Bachelors Facebook. - Oh yeah, they live here. - That's it. - And yeah, and so like they're awesome. They're such a sweet couple. And it's funny, we've watched their season two. We watched their season after we like, we're friends with them. So it was like a really weird. - Yeah, it was really weird. - Oh, let's never admit this. And then the next episode, he said we was like, I don't tell you so. (laughing) - 'Cause I have put mouse in it. Like I can't help myself. So I tell them that and it was weird 'cause yeah, we've like saw Ari kiss like other women on the set. - Yeah, you're really. - But like I think, and the same thing with the Bachelors franchise, there's been so many couples that didn't work out. But I think why they worked out was because they kind of broke the script of the show. Like, he ended up. - Oh, that's very similar. - Yeah, that's right. - He ended up choosing the girl that he turned down. And that's exactly what you did. - And he kind of broke the spell of like, the reality TV experiment thing. - Totally. - And so it made a choice yourself. - Exactly. - So you guys chose like you chose completely on your own outside of the reality TV side of it 'cause you didn't really do the stereotypical cookie cutter method on the show. - That's a really good theory, Matt. - Yeah. I think that's why it's working so well. - Honestly, like we've talked about that. And like, I think even maybe Zach says for him, so I don't wanna speak for your babe. But like, he feels like he had to go through that in order to actually be ready to say yes at the altar. Like he had to like lose me. He had to like, go through that experience of like, this is what my world would be like without her. Like I actually really want to be with her. - Yeah. - And we went through something really real, you know? Like that you're right. It doesn't happen in those worlds. You're like in literally a whirlwind romance. Like if you didn't break up, you're in limerence. There's like the oxytosis going crazy. Like you're literally like high on love and you get married in that state rather than like going through trials and like tribulations things and we actually went through something really serious like we broke up like he broke my heart you know and then yeah we got back to you so honestly I think that's a great theory I really do yeah I'll tell you when when we broke up I knew immediately I had fucked up I knew I had made a mistake he's working on saying the afford around it she was like I want some water the other day I was like oh my gosh you're too young like she's hit on the plane she's really good she's really good and she'll just say it's not going away I've tried I've tried to extinguish it I'll be like what the duck what the duck and she goes what the she does it with intonations like what the you're like that's hilarious yeah that's hilarious I think that's that's funny actually yeah our kid are what it what it is no he just said it one time he said freaking he said and I'm and I'm so I'm such free school teacher I'm like I don't like the way that sounds he said he said something like that was freaking awesome Abby's a better person than me I do say freaking awesome it's like I say that too but I don't know just their little kid voice I was like your baby stop that it's wrong the little innocent baby voices so we're trying to correct that yeah she's like I just have to add that it's like you know that's how I grew up as a kid and it's it's ingrained into me so it's not working on it no I thought we were working on it I'm working on it I'm working I actually remember as a kid you know this is kind of dark but like my my mom and my stepdad arguing and my cousin and I we're in Las Vegas actually and we counted how many times they said the F word and we're like 186 yeah it's counting it down that's awful yeah but so after after that did that F you up like growing up with hearing your mom and your stepdad argue all the time on top of everything else I saw a lot of messed up stuff as a kid I mean I like a lot of domestic violence a lot of you know like having to call the cops to make sure like my mom or you know whoever she was with didn't end up injured or you know like I yeah yeah I I saw a lot of stuff but anyways I'm really sorry to hear that it's a good I guess how does that affect you now and the role as like a parent like figure like what now that you're in charge like of your household and how like you guys interact and how you model a family unit for your daughter and you're soon to be son like how does that how is that influenced you yeah well I mean I think that it's really on a positive side it's really important that we model how to show love in front of our daughter and we're very intentional about that her face lights up when she sees me kiss bliss like it is just the biggest cheesy grin so I'll just come into the kitchen and just give bliss all these kisses and my daughter is like and then we'll go give her kisses but modeling love you know like the obvious is like no domestic violence like we don't have any issues with that I just I also think like the use of violence in conflict is is a cowards cowards method right like if you have to use violence or aggression to solve a conflict it's because you are either not intelligent enough to use your words or strong enough to walk away like I just I I don't think there's any excuse I think it's made you're really intentional to as a parent like you're really like from what just like observing you know with her like you're very intentional like you said about showing love and like making sure that she feels safe and so like I we have a very different childhood experience as like my parents had a pretty intense divorce which impacted me pretty heavily but I did not witness even a million of the things that you did and I feel like you're a little bit more aware you know about like per and purposeful in a lot of ways than I am in cultivating like a really positive safe environment for her she definitely knows that she's loved and she's surrounded with so much love and that's truthfully the thing that I think the only thing I think that matters and I think there's so much guilt that parents deal with about you know not being able to I know my mother did not being able to provide me with the things that she thought that I needed or you know me experiencing the things that I did but I remember telling her at one point like mom I'm okay like it worked out and uh yeah you weren't able to do everything perfectly but like I I felt loved you know and your love was was all I really needed um and I I just think like that's what makes the world's best parent and it's not a comparison it's not like oh this parents better than that if you love your kids with all your heart like you're the world's best parent because it's going to drive you right like if you truly love your kids like it's going to drive you to become a better person um and to do the best you can to provide for them um to sacrifice for them and I know it does me and I also the other thing that I I realize as a parent is that what I want for my daughter like I think about the person I want her to be and the best way that I can help her become that person is to become that person myself yeah from yeah that's awesome that's good stuff I know that from like learning about your story that a lot of your childhood and some of the challenges you went through with your mom is what motivated your career choice later in life like are you still practicing lawyer yeah yeah no way yeah I do personal injury litigation now okay so but you that motivated criminal defense right was what like kind of motivated by your childhood I think I think there was always something about me that gravitated towards criminal defense like in the fifth grade I remember arguing with my teacher I believe her name was Miss Jamison and um there was sorry Miss Jamison um she uh had told this boy that he was gonna get um he was gonna lose his recess unless he gave uh this girl lacy back her um her glasses like her reading glasses and he's like I didn't take her reading glasses and I remember arguing with the teacher like what evidence do you have I literally got up and argued with the teacher what evidence do you have that he took the glasses and she said well he's done it before and I got I almost lost my recess because I was and I was like what do you mean because he's done it before that's not evidence that's like that doesn't establish that he's the well how do you know she didn't how do you know that she didn't lose her glasses right um and ultimately she did lose her glasses and they got his recess back and Miss Jamison apologized to me um but it's I I mean my my personality has always gravitated towards that I justice I believe yeah I believe in due process and if we as a society are going to take away the life or liberty uh of others that we had better be sure beyond any reasonable doubt that they actually did what they're accused of doing because if we're not really sure or we make a mistake then the people who make the decision to take that life and liberty are just as bad right like you've put someone in a cage for a year of their life their entire life one day of their life so I I think that burden really weighed on me for a long time um and I was very thankful while I was doing criminal defense I was able to help a lot of people yeah that's just a side thing that it really interests me ever since yeah well because Abby's mom was actually going to school she your mom went to college to go into criminal justice right yeah she that she's a criminal justice mazer but honestly what really sparked it for me was reading Jess Mercy yes like we didn't read that I'm telling you guys that's the book Abby read to me the entirety of the book in the car because I was like you have to read this book I need to read it but it got me just so interested in I mean that he is a criminal defense or he started a foundation too but um the equal justice initiative you per DJI but anyway that and I obviously you know so much more about that area but that is an area that like I feel very interested in so I think it's really cool that you like you chose that area of law and the realm of law like what is like the I'm sure that there's like realm of like okay this is the money maker this is the one where you're like kind of slaving away like what where does criminal justice lie in that well what I would say is like in any field of law that you can make a decent amount of money but also I would also say if you want to make money law is not really the place to go it's just not the amount of time and effort it takes to get a lot degree to get licensed there's just much easier and more effective ways to like make money But if you really care about justice and you really care about helping people, I think law is a great profession. But yeah, I don't know because you see like there's divorce lawyers who that say the safest actually probably field of law is family law. And there's a lot of money in that it is probably the most dangerous field of law, like substantially more dangerous than criminal law. You wouldn't think that, because most people when they are losing the person they've fallen in love with, or they're losing their children, mentally that is the worst state of mind that you could ever be in. And so it is, yeah, it's a very difficult field of law. There's a lot of very few lawyers who really even want to go into that field of law. Are you saying dangerous as in spouses like killing the spouse, or spouses like taking their own lawyer? Lawyers being killed by their clients. What? Lawyers? They didn't get them the custody of the child. I didn't know that lawyers get killed by their clients. Does happen. Does that happen? That's scary. So you have to worry about that too. You're trying to make the world a better place, you're like, "Ah, hopefully no one tries to kill me today." Yeah, let's cut that part. Just in case the client's watching. Thank you to the ASPCA for sponsoring this portion of today's episode. We have a furry friend in our household for the first time in our marriage. She's part of our family now. I just love the excitement of when you come home and maybe no one else is home for whatever reason, but if your dog is there, they are just so happy to see you and just put such a big smile on my face. And that's why we wanted to give a quick message from today's sponsor, the ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Program. Have you ever found yourself urgently googling things like, "Is this normal for dogs?" Or, "Do I need to call the vet right now?" You're not alone. We've been there. We've experienced things like beastings with our dog. And those moments of panic come with pet ownership. And they're exactly why ASPCA Pet Health Insurance exists. When you enroll in an ASPCA Pet Health Insurance Plan, you could get a $25 Amazon gift card. It's a little treat for you while you're doing something great for your pet. The program offers customizable accident and illness plans, making it easier to get your pet the care that they may need. To explore coverage, visit ASPCA Pet Insurance dot com slash unplanned. That's ASPCA Pet Insurance dot com slash unplanned eligibility restrictions apply. Visit ASPCA Pet Insurance dot com slash Amazon terms for more info. This is a paid advertisement. Insurance is underwritten by either independent American insurance company or United States Fire Insurance Company, and produced by PTZ Insurance Agency Limited. The ASPCA is not an insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. But no, yeah, it does have the highest homicide rate last time I checked. For public defenders, because you did some public defending contracts, but you weren't technically a public defender. Was that probably the one that's more on you make less money and it's more work? Or is it? Yeah, I mean, obviously if you're working on a public defense contract, you're not making a lot of money. I think people who do public defense are the most committed to justice, and it's funny to me that there's this negative connotation about people who do public defense, because there's a real misconception. A lot of people don't understand that if you're in a municipality, the city itself is tasked with the criminal defense budget, and typically, most small municipalities will subcontract the private lawyers. So for example, where we lived in Wenanchi, the local municipality has subcontracted with our law firm, and then our law firm had subcontracted with other lawyers in the area. So our law firm would manage the public defense contract and then would have private lawyers who would take a portion of that. So they'd take on 100 cases or 50 cases during the year. But there's this perception that public defense lawyers are somehow not as talented as private defense. And I will tell you, that is not true. I've seen some tremendously talented public defenders out there in the opposite in the private defense, where people feel like they're getting more because they're paying for it, right? But actually, most public defenders are in trial every, you know, every month or-- So it makes them really good at it because they're doing it, yeah. And this is like, if anyone out there is in a situation where they are looking for a lawyer in the space of criminal defense or personal injury, the number one skill that you need to make sure your lawyer has is the ability to go to trial and win. That is what determines the outcome. Like at its core, a lot of criminal defense is like a high stakes poker game. And the cards are what is going to happen when we get in front of a jury. Be it not guilty, we'll be a guilty. And there's all these variables that you're trying to use to determine the probability of that, the facts on the case, the motions for suppression that one side may do over the other, whether certain protocols were followed. But all of those are building up in litigation until you get to that trial. The way that I was always able to get my clients the best outcome is being willing to go to trial. And I like, I thought when you think of lawyers, like, oh, everyone goes to trial, like, that's what lawyers do, but apparently it's a very small percentage that actually go to trial and actually are good at it. So it's definitely something I learned. Most lawyers have never gone to trial, which is crazy. That makes me, like, when you describe the law as like a high stakes poker game, that kind of makes me uncomfortable because of the fact that it's people's life or their life. Like, and literally, sometimes it's literally their life, are they going to get the death penalty, right? Going into this, this second pregnancy, because you're, you're about to give birth here in like a couple weeks. Literally. Hopefully they don't now. Hopefully he stays in there until we get home and put in on the plane. Yes, it's coming up so quick with, yeah, with that birth, like being, being fast approaching, kind of like your fears, your worries, like anything that didn't really go into according to plan with the first pregnancy and postpartum experience that you're like, ooh, I need to figure out a new way to navigate that. Yeah, I feel like so much, like, the birth itself was so intense. It was, I was in labor for 42 hours, I was overdue. I was almost 42 weeks, which is where they're like, we have to induce you, like, and I got every intervention except a C section, and I was like, I wanted to go like, new up a drill and like, you know, like, home birth vibes, and they did not go that way. And my, my body would not dilate past four centimeters for 28 hours, and they broke my water, still wouldn't dilate. I had a doula, and she was helpful in a lot of ways, but there was a point where she was like, I don't even know what to say about this. And in general, I feel like I'm a kind of an anxious person, which I didn't really realize that about myself until we got married and we kind of were my near in a lot of ways. But I was just so tense about it. I was so scared. My mom, when I was 15, my mom had my little sister, and I was in the delivery room, and she literally almost died. They had, she was bleeding out. They had to start cutting her open while she was still awake in order to remove her uterus and time to save her. And I was in the room while she was just gushing blood, and it's like convulsing. And so I feel like I carried this trauma with me, and I still kind of have that trauma with me going into my birth. And so I think I was just so, as much as I tried to be calm, I just wasn't. And I don't know if that's why my body wouldn't progress, or if it's just this is my body's first time doing it, and it doesn't know what's going on. So it was really, really scary for me, and I remember kind of like anxiously reminding the doctors, because each time a, every time a doctor would come in, I think they rotated like every six hours or something. And I would like tell them that my mom had this experience, because like I didn't want to die through giving birth. And it was, it was really scary. This time around I feel a little bit better about that, but my mom also had three, two births prior to that, that were totally normal and okay. And then the third birth was the one that was so intense, and where she literally almost lost her life and had to get almost all of her blood, um, through, placed through a blood transfusion. It was really scary. So are you saying they basically started a hysterectomy during, like, like wash it away? Yeah. While she was awake. And they did the whole thing while she was awake. So they were, she they were able to like get her out in time before it was completely done, but she remembers literally being cut open. They were shooting her with no vacayne as they were cutting. And her doctor came to her, um, I'm gonna get emotional, but the day after and we're still really close with her. She literally saved my mom's life. And like was crying to her, like I saved you. Like you were, I had 20 minutes to get your uterus out or you were just gone. And I remember like when they kicked us out of the room and took her off to the OR, um, looking at my baby sister and like my mom is someone who I admire and just love so much. And to like think that like she would possibly like never know her was really hard and scary. So birth carries a lot of like scary things, you know, and I think in our country, the birth or the maternal death rate is really high compared to a lot of other countries that are on the same level technologically and medical and science wise as us. So it's a scary thing. I think postpartum depression was really bad for me with my daughter and it's weird because I was so happy when I was pregnant with her. Like I felt like any sort of depression I ever had or anxiety was gone and like you even would comment on that like how I seemed so happy. It's like the pregnancy hormones like fixed my depression and then when I gave birth it was like hard and fast like really quickly like a deep dark depression and I really struggled with breastfeeding. She lost a ton of weight and I had to supplement with formula and I had to get lactation specialist which is honestly something I like recommend to anyone who's a first time mom that hasn't nursed before. That really helped us but the lack of sleep like it's going through having a child it's kind of like a real shock to your whole life. It really like your whole life completely changes and it's obviously like such the greatest blessing ever but it was postpartum depression was really really really hard for me and I'm very scared of that happening again to be honest. Like I think I've struggled with a little bit of do they call it prenatal depression or I don't know what they technically call it but like kind of like some depression during my pregnancy has kind of flared up a little bit here and there so and it's one of those things where it's like I felt like I really prepared the first time around for it like I talked to my doula about postpartum depression and I was like this is our plan but can you I don't know as much as you have a plan for something like sometimes it doesn't work out that way so I'm a little apprehensive about that and also having a toddler like I can't go that deep into it again because she needs me to be functional you know as well as my newborn so how did you how did you find your your way out of that I mean to be in a what feels like a deep dark pit that you're trapped in and you can't get out of and you can't see the line at the end of the tunnel yeah what was something that you found to be helpful for getting getting you back um honestly like holding my daughter like seeing her like thinking about her life and how her life would be if she didn't have me and how that literally motivated voted motivated me to like be here for her and just honestly like my love for her like I truly say that like she saved me throughout that process um my we had a lot of help from my mom we were so grateful she lived with us for about a year and that really helped me um I think I got into a place where I wasn't doing like any self-care at all and just like going on walks like exercise has always been something that's really helped me kind of get out of my head and so even just going on walks was really helpful for me and just time really truly time and talking to other women that had experienced it as well and actually I ended up taking medication for a while I'm just remembering that but yeah I took medication too and I think that actually helped me as much as I'm like I want to do things very naturally and that wasn't something that I ever wanted to do I feel like I needed to at the point that I was at yeah and I'm sure you opening up about your experience too with struggling postpartum and um even choosing to take medicine like that and that is giving so many moms that are listening like that freedom to get that help afterwards because like you said you can go into postpartum knowing that this is something that can happen but until you're in it and you're experiencing it doesn't really it doesn't take that it doesn't have that same weight you know and so I think that's honestly that's really candid of you to share like yeah I'm still I've been through this again and I'm apprehensive about doing it again but here you guys are you chose to have another baby and um it is such a blessing and like really exciting this time you're having a boy so does how does that feel it feels honestly like weird honestly I'm like we know how to do a girl and maybe they're not that different I don't know but it's it's definitely we have to think thing about things little differently you know like I keep being like I have a boy in here like it's a boy that's so weird like but it's also like obviously 50% chance that it was beautiful yeah it's so weird because like obviously yes and you're like yeah they can't be it's a kid like it yeah it can't be that different but for us like the thought of having like a boy another I was like well yeah that's that makes it a little easier and I'm like why you know but like in my head I was like oh well okay that'll make that'll build this really easier like we can we know how to do this yeah but um yeah every kid still brings their own unique totally you know they're quarks and everything so um do you intend and you you said that you had struggled a little bit with breastfeeding before that was I feel like that's something that what really was shocking for us like especially me I was just like oh this is natural and it is but then there's some times there's like what is what is this feels like the most unnatural literally so yeah so do you intend on trying that again I do yeah you know something that my lactation specialist like told me that really kind of stuck with me is like just kind of like our day and age you don't really see breastfeeding it's much you're not like seeing it like as you would maybe like 200 years 300 years ago when like a village or whatever or everything just out out in the open like there's not that cultural aspect of like oh I'm passing this down to you all this knowledge down to you of how to do it because like you said it's natural but it's also like feels so unnatural I also feel like our generation was mostly formula yeah I was a formula yeah I think it was best for maybe like two months I think my mom was like what in that that's the point though because especially like in in our western culture it kind of feels like something that you have to hide yeah like you know especially with just the coverings and everything like it's it's it's funny to me and I feel like by the third that's something I'm gonna get there just like yeah but we were out open oh yeah we're just too hot yeah we're just in Hawaii and you know there's a lot more of like embracing of the the eastern cultures out there and a lot more like crunchy moms yeah it's funny to me like Abby and I were at a lot of open nursing yeah at a strawberry patch like picking strawberries for their kids and their moms like out like breastfeeding and we were just like like really threw us off and I'm like it's so natural like it's so like why is it that we have to be all like oh yeah because then yeah the moms have no idea what the freak to do when it comes to breastfeeding yeah those are babies just get so sweaty under there I remember taking our kids out and there's like we need more when I'm hot I'm like no please I'm over stimulated as it is like yeah and so I feel like that was also part of our kids frustration like all this too hot thank you to rocket money for sponsoring this portion of today's episode I don't know about you but as a parent to toddlers we've had so many moments where our kids just grab the tv remote and start pressing buttons and they buy subscriptions without our permission and they don't even realize they're doing it so that's why we keep it out of permission they have no idea they're playing a game with her remote that's why I'm a huge fan of rocket money which tracks your subscriptions and has the ability to cancel within the app with a few taps saving users over $880 million in cancel subscriptions you can set budgets and goals get personalized insights and regular reports you also receive real-time alerts for large transactions upcoming bills refunds and low balances I'm a huge fan also of how easy rocket money makes it to track your money and track your spending I mean by far though the ease to cancel subscription is unmatched really can't recommend rocket money enough rocket money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings like rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster join rocket money dot com slash unplanned that's rocket money dot com slash unplanned rocket money dot com slash unplanned I think the funniest thing to me though is just a freaking that like the body transformation that like you women go through yeah like seeing seeing Abby just like freaking I just I felt bad for at one point some like that is a watermelon like I'm like that that cannot feel okay you know it doesn't it doesn't you you you ladies really go through it for our kids oh my gosh well I breastfed until I was like what three or four months pregnant which was crazy and so I feel like my body never even got a chance to go back to like normal not even that it would ever be what it was before plus my old body I didn't know what I had honestly but um it's straight into it you know like straight into like like my sister was like what size bra are you and I was like I don't even know I've been like in nursing bras since like I gave birth two years ago like I literally told you no it's such a weird thing that was while I also went from breastfeeding to pregnancy and then I had a big gap and that's when I was like oh oh things are different it is wild and it's one of those things where I I don't know how you feel also I feel like my feelings on this fluctuate a lot it's a lot easier to have like body freedom when you're pregnant I feel like you're like yeah it is what it is like we're growing a baby what do you expect of it but then sometimes like there's days where you're like especially for me it was like postpartum I was like wow like when you say blessed your old body I was like not hide every picture of me before I had totally deleted them all but then like now I'm like hang on to them for real I will never see that again I feel like there's just a certain like aspect now where I've been like you know years into having kids obviously still new to being a [BLANK_AUDIO] I'm just like it is what it is like this was just such a like it's just your life gets put into such a Perspective when you have children where you're like, you know, am I really just so worried? I don't fit in those jeans anymore or am I so worried that I don't know things are hanging lower than They ever should but like it's like there's just a certain thing where you're like that is such a small price to pay For this gift But then it's also valid to like struggle with it. Yeah, you know Yeah, I don't really I totally agree that kind of like vastly in an out of like it doesn't matter And then I'm like a kind of like does like I was actually thinking the other day like my you know Like I'm just like wearing something super tight and it's like my belly's out and it's like when I give birth I'm totally not I'm like well, I even feel comfortable doing that. I'm gonna like want to wear baggy things But it's also like also need to honor my body You know and what it just did and like because of my daughter. I feel like it's made me be yeah I don't want her to ever feel that way. You know, I want her to always be proud of her body and every say especially after she Gives birth like your body just like literally created a human being Like there shouldn't be any shame around how your body looks after that. And so I'm trying to be a good example for her Now that now that you you know done reality TV you guys both have you know large social media followings Do you feel any pressure to you know Like like yeah, do you feel that pressure as an influencer to make everything look perfect or how do you balance that that struggle of being real While you're battling postpartum depression But also wanting to protect yourself at the same time. How do you how do you navigate all of that? It's so hard I I feel like Zach and I kind of have always I feel like have been really authentic online. I think Just as people do you not agree? Oh, okay. I think like it's people. It's really hard Especially at our ages like it's just hard for us to like put up like a facade or a front like I just don't have any energy for that That's also not what I want to cultivate in our society for the sake of like children that are growing up right now Like for things to be perfect for things to be You know perfectly orchestrated or whatever I think People that do follow us and know us and love our story Um, I think they're gravitate towards us because we're very real about that like if you look at our pictures We're not like overly like college by any means Um, and I I did we know when I was ready. I feel like you have to be ready to open up like sometimes there's things that happen in your life In the moment you're not ready to share that you know and you take time to process that yourself And then there's a time where okay, I'm ready to share that and like through my experience with postpartum depression While I was like really deep in it. I wasn't sharing a lot of anything I wasn't talking about it because I wasn't in like a ready to yeah, and then when I was I was ready to share and I think that's what you have to do You have to protect that protection of yourself of that period of time where you're mourning or you're going through something That sacred you do that for you and then when you feel right about it, you share that I think that's where you find that balance or where I feel like we found that balance Yeah To add on to that I also don't think that we Really were given like a cut that made us look like this perfect Cup trail, you know, like I think you clearly saw that we have flaws you saw bliss and I argue on the show They call out a lot of arguing actually They're like we don't want you to see me as mean as you can be But you see us you see us argue you see us have conflict And that's all part of being in a natural relationship And I think it is an interesting dynamic right because You don't necessarily share all of your conflicts And I think people get this perception that they're The couples that they're comparing themselves to don't have conflicts and like that is a healthy marriage I if you're not having some conflicts Then one party is not communicating yeah, and then that I really think is is like a relationship is more likely to fall apart if there are no conflicts then if there are healthy conflicts that are regularly happening But sharing that on You know on social media obviously We're not out there like today and I bliss and I debated about How close I need to be to our daughter when she's running around arms Just the other day how much of a helicopter parent should we be? Yes, I'm so intense about it like we were at the we were in Vegas at the this convention for children brands and stuff And she was just running and there's people with suitcases and big things and like I'm like you need to be with an arms reach You know like you need like swoop her up out of the way of like this cart running her over Like this, you know like I definitely think I'm probably made him worse helicopter parent like he was naturally helicopter And I'm like yeah, but this is our first right so we'll see he's I just like this really. Oh yeah You guys ready to get so much more relaxed like we were just at the airport with both our boys after Disneyland And they had a full on lightsaber battle at the airport And they were within arms reached during a lightsaber ride was actually at That was dangerous for us I did bring them I brought them to a section where I was like, okay, they're not gonna hit anybody They were like off the main path where people were like trying to walk you to their gate But yeah, so people could like at least see when they're if they were trying to like walk you know near that area They knew okay, there's a two-year-old having a very intense Jedi warrior battle I was like don't worry. I was like their dad is right there. They're like it I just felt like I was like this is a little crazy. Yeah Yeah, no headshots though. We've had no headshots the other person has a weapon. You established rules. There you go Both people have to have weapons. Yeah, yeah, there's just You established rules never thought you'd make good. Yeah, no, that'd be so fun. That dynamic is really sweet Me and my brother. I'm older and then I have a younger brother and He'll already have another mom like I just feel like with like they just tap that natural instinct I don't know. I'm like you're just little my it's her husband That is my brother how many years are you guys apart too? Oh, yeah, that'll be their yeah, like he's a baby He's a little infant that I must take care of She's very nurturing What do you wish your parents would have done differently with the two of you or something they did well Ask yeah, like are you guys done it to them? I don't you know, it's weird I feel like this weird pressure to like when I got pregnant with him I was like okay, am I gonna have a third of me? I've like it's been like this daily question It's dangerous for me if I have a third in a way because twins run in my family I'm a twin you could be getting for his cousin just found out she's having triplets. She's a one-year-old So she's gonna four under two Honestly, I'm shook I'm scared but also yay, but also oh my god. I'm scared. I'm not even happening to me So we have to like be prepared for multiple especially because I'll be older like I'm 36 I'm like the key like we doesn't want my radar of like considerations, so that would be a real shock So because they run so hard on both sides of our family twins multiples like it's something like okay Like if we want a third like you might accidentally have like For I do think growing up in a family with one girl and one boy the dynamic is really it was really great It's very even it makes a lot of sense and I feel like you can be really really close And so like our family is like extremely tight knit and Like my parents it was really like me and my mom paired up and my brother and my dad paired up Like I always give the example like sometimes me would me my mom would go out to dinner Our cells and they would go to a different restaurant like bubble wow wings panera Like that happen often and so like we really are like I'm like my mom's buddy. Yeah my dad's buddy That insane like to answer your question. I do think that like maybe some more like Mother daughter or mom. Yeah Mom dad Father like that is where you have to be a little bit more intentional because I do feel like you do split off in that way a little bit And that type of family but I do think like we were like researching like just for fun obviously like there's so many other factors that influence like Family satisfaction happiness. Yeah, but like there's a really high correlation of like one girl one boy Families being like one of the highest like oh really hi wasn't that true? Highest we look this up together. I what I can't remember. It was probably something I'd like I looked up with like chat B.T. or you did and it's like I honestly feel like there's a lot more things that have a higher No, when I found I was like I was like babe. We got to cap it up for because I was like the more kids You keep having after four. It's just like less time for your spouse less time for your spouse And which I mean honestly every kid you have is gonna be another person you're adding the pictures You're not gonna have as much intentional time with just the two of you. Yeah, but Apparently though the more kids you have the more purpose you have in your life, but maybe not as much Longer you live, right? I think the more kids you have. Oh, that's true, too. Yes. Yes. Like having and grandparents being around grandchildren. Yes, then live a longer to yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway all that to say I think that even if like this is the end Like to one girl and more. I think that's a I love I love I love my family was that up and so sweet like I kind of feel like sad Like is this the last time I'm pregnant? You know like there's that weird thing where it's like but it's also I don't know We'll see. Yeah, I think it's good to not have that pressure like yeah, I'll decide. I'll see how it is with him and you know, we'll go from there I guess Okay, we do have some rapid fired quiet rapid fire question our audience submitted for you guys so I think this will be kind of fun. That's not great at rapid fire, we'll try, because he's a long answer. Labyrinth, long-winded answer. Okay, first question, this is from a girl named Chelsea Hayden. She said, "Where did you come up with your daughter's name?" Zach loves the literations. His last name is Goytowski or our last name is Goytowski and he loved the name Goliath and we're like, "Oh gosh, I'm not going to do Goliath." Just before we even started having kids, I'm like, "Goliath is not on the table for me. I'm sorry, I love you." No. So, we talked about different G names and someone had told him, "Oh, what about the name Goliath when he was randomly talking about kid names?" And he was like, "I really like that." And then he told me the name and I was like, "Honestly, I love that for a boy or a girl." We love what Goliath stands for, kind of going against the grain of what he believes scientifically to be true or observed and like what people were telling him to believe and getting standing up for the right thing or standing up for honesty. Refresh my memory. Was this him like fighting against the Catholic Church about the sun being the center of the universe? They're like, "No, they're worth it." And you went to jail for it and stuff. That's crazy. Yeah, crazy, right? That's cool. And it's also like Goliath which is his last name is like the birthplace of Jesus like spiritually just kind of lined up for this and I'm like, "Honestly, I kind of love when like a little girl has like a boy name. I just think it's so cute or an androgynous name or whatever." So we decided on Galileo before we even got pregnant with him. We did. We had the name picked out before we knew, before she-- And you stuck with it. We stuck with it. And I don't want all the kids to be G's I don't think, but we are first to be in the iteration. He could get that. We actually filmed a little video for her before like the day we decided because she was not unplanned. None of our babies have been unplanned. We were all planned. It was like we got a video and we recorded it for her saying like, "Hey, today's the day that we decided to--" Like, she's like, "I don't want to watch this." It's gross. It's like a cool grand. Hello, we just did it. And happy birthday. I'm going to give it to her on a racing birthday. That's dope though. I have a similar like video that I need to show our kids one day. It's like happy and nice. Like we're skating at a roller skating alley like place. It's like a roller ring. This is before we got married. And it's like, "Babe, what do you have to say to our future kids?" And she's like, "Hi kids. Go to bed." Like whatever. Yeah. That's kind of fun. I think that's cool. We need to do that more. That's cool. You guys may have made a video like that on our wedding night. We did. Yeah. We recorded a message to our future selves on our wedding night. That's so sweet. We talked to our kids. Yeah. That's cool. But that's sweet. I like that. So baby, it boy is named. Well, with him, it's a little bit different. We didn't like have like a name like, "Oh, we're stuck at horns going to be this one." So it's kind of up in the air and I don't know. I want to like see him, you know? Right. Like the soul. Like the soul. Yeah. And with your daughter too. And your daughter too. And you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it. And you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it, and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and I'm going to say it and I'm going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and you're going to say it and I mean, I think the goal is, you know, we've got at least 16 more years, the goal is to raise her to be a wise woman who makes decisions with both her mind and her heart and I would support my daughter if she actually came to me and said, I believe this is the person that I want to respect the rest of my life with, I would trust her. And this whole timeline from, you know, starting the show, you have the 10 days of dating everybody and then getting to each other and then you get engaged, going to honeymoon, coffee engagement, then meet up and get engaged and get married. This entire timeline, did that happen within, like, was it, was it a month? Two months? I think it was two weeks. Well, no. Like the whole process. The entire process from March is when we went into the pods and our anniversary just happened on May 9th. So it was, yeah, like, little less than two months. So it was two weeks in the pods, four or five days in Mexico and then from when Bliss and I met, it was three days to the engagement and then two weeks. - Holy cow. - That was really cool. - That's really fast. - Yeah. - That's more like a month, honestly. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Especially because as we were apart for that. - Yeah. - Or in half or whatever. - And I remember from the show, your dad was pretty apprehensive about not just the process, but specifically, I feel like it was geared towards you. What's your relationship with your father and like now? - We're good, yeah. Yeah, we went fishing. - No way. - I didn't fish it. - I didn't catch anything. (laughing) - Not really. - I caught a sunburn. - I caught a sunburn, did you catch anything? - Yeah, he caught a lot of fish. (laughing) - I remember he was like asking about fishing and stuff and I was like, I don't know if that's his interest. - Yeah, I grew up in Alaska and my dad's a very outdoorsy person, so. - If we were in the zombie apocalypse, she's catching all the fish. - That's true, that's true. - I got you, baby. (laughing) - I never considered moving to Alaska. If you were as your family there. - You know, I would love to have a cabin there. Like the sunmers are just so amazing there. And we want to expose our children to that kind of side of life and a little bit of a slower life and living off the land. And so I think our goal will be to have like a home there one day, probably not permanently year round. It's like so dark there during the winter, just would not be fun on that way. - We definitely need to go on a family trip to Alaska. - Yeah, it's so gorgeous you guys. It's like nothing, you've no mountains you've ever seen. - I would be so bad. - It's so worth it. - Northern lights? - The Northern lights. - Did you guys get to see the Northern lights? Like this, was it two years ago? - I didn't. - I've never seen them. - Have you seen the Northern lights? - So when Galle was born. - When we announced her birth actually that night, the Northern lights, and they're never where we live. In Seattle area, they never are there. They just randomly were there. It was crazy. - I came and I woke up bliss. - I was like, she's so fair. - I'm not trying to sleep. I've already seen them with my answer because I grew up. But I'm glad I got her. - I was like, no baby, you have to come out here. This is unlike anything I've ever seen. The entire sky was lit up in all of these weird, green, purple colors. I mean, it felt like a movie. It was, yeah, they are something else. - Do you guys ski? - I like to snowboard. - Okay, so go, like for like a snowboarding trip in the winter and go to like an area like more in Northern maybe. - Like some work in Canada maybe? - Oh, yeah, you could go Canada. You could go somewhere in Alaska. There's so many places. And you'll very likely see them. - Okay, yeah. - I need to do that. - It's totally worth it. - Next question is, what is one thing that was not aired that you wish was shown? - Oh. For me, I think it's like the depth of our connection. Like there's so much, like they've gotten kind of better about showing what happens in the pods. Like that's truly where all the interesting things happen. I think our connection, they did did their best. I think to show it, but it was so much more like, there's something else going on here, like from the universe or God or like where something else going on here. That's like, there's so many things that we have in common. There's so many synchronicities between us. There's so many intense like emotional moments that we had. - You want to make that story? - Because you barely see what happened with the owls. - Oh, well like the owl, like a snowy owl or just owls in general has kind of been like my like symbol with things like, okay, like, this is like I'm a pretty spiritual person. Like this is my sign from God or the universe or whatever that I'm like on the right track. And I remember when I was like, I was thinking about breaking up with my ex and I was driving down the road and I saw like a huge dead barn owl in the road in front of me. Like super obvious, like I was like, okay, like this is, I knew that I needed to, but it kind of helped me be like, okay, yeah, this is happening. And on the first day, because you obviously can't see the person, I was like, oh, what are you wearing, you know? And he was like, oh, I have like an owl. Like you said that I was wearing like a suit or something in a tie and I had like, I have like an owl, what is a tie clip? And I was like, no, you don't. And he was like, why would I lie about that? Cause like, for me, I was like, this is crazy. And I like, when I heard his voice for the first time when he said my name is Zach, like, I just like knew he was my person. And then that on top of it, like made me freak out even more. So I kind of wish they showed the more like magical moments that happened in the pods between us to like really show the depth of our connection, like how much I loved him and why I kind of even like gave him even the opportunity of coming back after what happened was because we had that such deep connection and so many magical things happened in the pods. - Did they give you permission just to talk for as long as you want to talk? - No, they'll cut you off mid sentence and boy, did they with him? He would be like in a long, monologue of things. (laughing) - No, they don't. I think that's part of like what make, you know, like they want to cultivate an environment of like wanting that person, right? So they'll like just cut you off. They'll give you a morning, like you have five minutes left or something. - Yeah. - And then it's like a lot of times he would be, he would be the one in the middle of a sentence and it would just cut. (laughing) You can leave though if you want. Like, if you don't want to have a day with that person anymore, I can just leave him. - But yeah, I agree. I think that some of our connections in the pods and what we connected on, you don't get to see that. - And part of it is just its TV and they have a very short amount of time and they have to be concise. - I think every couple says that that they wish they showed more of that. - And we were lucky, like I said, to get as much of our relationship shown as it was. But yeah, the, I really felt like there were signs that were being given to me, that she was the person. And like, I felt like that before I broke up with her. Like, I felt like I was getting those signs. And that's why I kind of compared it to Jonah and the whale. But aren't they giving you guys alcohol, though? Like, is any part of this happy drinking? - You weren't drinking. - I'm not a big drinker. Like, I'll drink, I'm a lightweight, just like genetically, I think. So like, I just, I wanted to also be in like a clear state, you know? And like, it was there if you wanted it, but I remember, like water was in my golden goblet or like a bubbly water, some things sparkling water. - I did drink at the bachelor party, though. - Oh, really? - And I drank a lot in Mexico. (laughing) - Oh god, yeah, really feeling the weight and the stress. - Oh my gosh. - Oh my gosh. - That was horrible. - I couldn't stress, we do, sir. - Okay. Another user submitted a question from Moomad17. - I love it when he's been with us all. - Says, "Would you recommend a love is blind to other people?" So I'm assuming like a friend is like being recruited or whatever is scouted. They've received random voicemail. - And like, I could recommend the experience. - Honestly, yeah. I think that if you are actually looking for love, I think it's a really beautiful opportunity to fall in love with someone with further right reasons, right? Like obviously physical attraction is important. And that's an important part of what makes relationship work. But when do you ever get to say that you get to like, actually just like meet someone and learn someone from who they are on the inside? That's such a cool opportunity. And if you're gonna take it seriously, we talked about a lot about vulnerability. Like, you've gotta be vulnerable. You've gotta really go into this taking you seriously. Then I absolutely would. - Yeah, I would say if you are looking to actually get married, I would highly recommend it. If you're not, if you're thinking like, "Oh, this is gonna make my life better, it's probably not." - Probably not. - It's probably not, right? - It's gonna make your daily probably harder actually. - The only way it is going to make your life better. Well, I mean, I think you'll grow. If you're serious about it, you will grow as a person, like genuinely. If, listen, I hadn't worked out, I think I would have been a much better person as a result, but everything else that comes along with it, like the attention, like the ridicule that people get, I, you know, I don't. - Unless you're gonna take it seriously. - Yeah, do not do not do it unless you're seriously trying to get married. And I think there have been people who have gone on. - For cloud. - Yeah, as the seasons have developed, and I don't even know if I'd use that word, I'd just say that they're doing it because of the allure of being on television, the war of doing that, and it doesn't go well. It doesn't go well, you know, it just, it doesn't. And I really think if love is blind, wasn't televised, like it was just like a dating service. - I think it'd be very successful. - Oh, you do. - I do, I do. - Wait, maybe that should be, maybe somebody should start that as like a company or something. - Yeah, seriously. - Yeah, the creator could. 'Cause I think the systems there, and everything that they have is founded in solid scientific research. - They give you questions to ask each day that help delve deep into like about finances and like various things that help you uncover, like meaningful things. - Oh, that's so cool. - You can connect on and see if you're aligned, so. - That's so cool. - The problem, the problem that you really encounter with it is now you don't know if the person on the other side is being honest, right? Or if they're coming in with other motives. And because of that, I've seen so many seasons, you guys, where but for someone trying to play games, trying to win, a couple didn't get together that would have likely, or but for it being televised. Like, I'm not gonna go into names. - Don't give any. - Yeah, I won't go into names. But there are couples that are together now that didn't match because they weren't ready to get vulnerable on television about certain things and so they didn't get together. But I'm telling you, every season, there's at least one couple that ends up together later. But for the television portion of it. So yeah, I think it would be, it's a huge opportunity. - I remember in junior high, [BLANK_AUDIO] You could pay Valentine's Day like $3 to have the matchmaker quiz. Oh yeah! I bet that you would do really great in junior high as two. Maybe like, maybe like, my love. Oh my god. Did you guys do that? That's so cute. Never did that. I had a fool. I had a fool. Why do I feel like I've taken some love quiz before? Yeah. That's so cute. Yeah. But obviously way more science going into it. Yeah. Really, that's that. Um, this one says, if you met, it's my K Heuber's O6, if you met in the real world, do you think you would have gotten together? Yeah. I think it would have taken us a lot longer to get where we are obviously, because it's like a forced, like deep connection so quick, but yeah, I do. We talk about this. Not in our 20s, actually. It's timing. Yeah, we met in the time where we were probably meant to get to be a, we debate about this, about I think just knowing my personality and the type of women that I normally gravitated towards, I think I really would have gravitated towards her. I don't know if she would have gravitated towards me. There's probably, there's certain, obviously, your foundational qualities, but I think I was a lot, like, less tolerant about certain things and a lot more easily annoyed. I feel like I would have just been like, you're annoying or something. Yeah. I don't know. We definitely were meant to be in our 30s. Which may have worked. I just think I was in such a different mental space in my 20s that I don't know if it would have worked, but he's like, we would have had 10 kids of we meant in our 20s. I'm like, 10? I don't think that. I don't think we would have 10 kids. But. Sweet. Yeah, it's sweet. You believe in us, no matter how we were. Is Named Abilism with Howard? I'm just so curious. What is something about the process of love is blind? Because so many people know love is blind as a show now, and there's a lot of, I mean, has created so much buzz. Like, what is something about the process as people that have gone through it, seen the whole thing through? That people wouldn't guess based off watching the show, like as a viewer. I'm going to really think about that. Okay. Okay. For me, I think it's like, and we kind of touched on this a little bit, but just like how much time you really are spending talking to these other people, because to you as a viewer it may seem like, oh my gosh, all of a sudden they're saying, I love you. Like, this is like their second or third date. Like, what is going on here? Like, this is totally crazy. This makes absolute zero sense. But if you know the time that goes into it, like literally like, I don't know at the end of it, maybe it's like 80 hours plus of straight just talking, it really adds to like, okay, I actually can get like how these people would fall in love. And honestly, like, you, there's no way that like all of you could be shown on through this show, just the amount of time they have, like every side of you, and these people are human. And I think it's so easy to like, ostracize them when they're villainized, someone who like put so much hate on someone when you don't have the full picture of who they are. And I think that's just in general for a reality TV. But. Okay. So there's, there's two things, and this is kind of playing off of what Bliss was saying. I think the first one, and this is something I realize, and you guys have probably experienced us to reality TV and celebrity culture in general is an active catharsis for most people. They're either living a fantasy that they like, they wish that they could experience through that person, or they're taking out their aggression that they can't express in their normal life on a fictional character. And it, it feels cathartic to do so. And that is something we've seen with all of reality TV, where with social media, it's been taken to a totally new level. But we see it every, you know, every season of love is blind. You see it with the bachelor. But it's becoming harder and harder to give people to go on these shows because of, it's become a ritual to shame the people who are being shown on this for how long, you know, years, before like a single moment that could be taken out of context and may have been their very worst moment, and we were really cautious about this when the show came out, really tried to talk to people about forgiving the people that were on the show and not judging them and understanding that like, for many of people, they were pushed to the brink and you saw they're very worst, but this person is better than that and they can grow. And I remember from our season, that was one thing that you didn't, that got cut. So there was a line that like, everybody has quoted me on and it wasn't cut like from the show is live. We were the only live reunion. So we were able to say everything and there was no cut. But the, the clip of it, everybody's forgotten the last part of what I said. So I confronted my ex on the, on the, at the reunion and I tried to keep it very short and sweet, which was just, and the best way I could do it without going to all the details and the messed up things that had happened was you're saying, you, you came in on the show to get famous. And that has been blown up. People have seen that, but it's been taken out of context because there's a butt behind that. And the butt was, but I, I know that you can become a better person. And I know, and anyone out there who wants to judge you, like, don't, and I'm not quoting myself of verbatim here, but that, that was immediately after I, I, I said that, which is don't, don't judge this person, you know, you saw them at their worst. They can grow and they can become more. And for what, you know, that, that doesn't make a, a catchy clip. Right. It doesn't, everyone's like, yeah, you came in this to be famous, not, yeah, you came this to be famous, but this was you at your worst and that you're a good person and that you can become better. That was kind of left out. Kind of like a behind the scenes thing that I think is people think, people think we like live in the pods or like we live in that lounge and we actually have our own rooms and they get to go back to a hotel, which was nice. Yeah, like you kind of, they make it seem like you kind of live there, but thankfully you, you have your own room. And that really facilitates the connect, go ahead. I was going to say, I really liked how you just said right there how even, even your ex who, you know, you had, you had that moment that was clips and everything. I love how you said that you wanted better for her and you, I feel like you're a good guy and I feel like you want to see good in the world. And I also, I think that like it's so, it's so funny that the book that I've been reading Red Rising, which you read while you were on your honeymoon and which, that's the book that Bliss recommended that you read Red Rising. I love how like the main character in that book is also embodying that like view of the world of, okay, there's all these bad people that I want to see change and I want to see be better versions of themselves. And that's like a constant theme throughout the Red Rising series of these, you know, these gold characters who are at the highest point of the cast system are, you know, technically, like the bad guys are the villains in the book, but they're all the main characters wanting to see them change. Yeah. So I don't know. I thought that was kind of cool. It was cool. Kind of just wanted to under it out there for a little bit to do. I feel like you're a little bit nerdy too. Oh, very nerdy. I would say a lot of it. Yeah. We're both a lot of it. What are some nerdy things that people wouldn't expect about you guys because there's some, are you guys playing Dungeon and Dragons like every night? I try to get her to do it. He wants me to so bad and like, you guys ever want to play together? Let's do it. Let's do it. I've never played it. We'll do it. I'm down. Let's do it. I'm okay. I'm actually never gone to play D&D, but I really want to. I'm big into storytelling. I love like the idea of it. Okay. That's cool. Yeah. We're pretty nerdy. I think like the amount of like accents we do and like just quirky, funny like little sayings we do with our daughter and like all the singing. Maybe people would think the singing is something we do after what they saw on the show. But we do a lot of singing. We're really into reading. We like create random weird stories with our daughter. We've talked about like creating and writing books together and different things like we're pretty, yeah. We're pretty like normal nerds, I would say. I think the most appropriate question to end on comes from Kylin_vuggvuege is love truly blind. So I'll start. Oh, okay. I can't see why I'm not the first person to ask that. But it's such a good one. I think it is. And I think the problem is the words that we use. Okay. In the English language, we use love to describe a very broad scope of emotions. And I think other languages have more precise ways of defining love, right? So what do we talk about the romantic love? We're talking about like arrows. Have you familiar with it? We can. Yeah. So arrows agape and filia. There's another word for love too, but I won't go into it, but the love that we have for our friends, the romantic love that we have for another person, and that unconditional love that you have for a child, right, agape, the unconditional love. There's, I believe, and agape is probably the most important. That's what really we're all seeking, right? That romantic love matters too. And I think when people think is love blind, they're thinking is the romantic feeling, like obviously what drives a romantic connection, there's a physical component to it. There's a visual component to it. But there's also a mental and a psychological component to it and I don't think you can weigh one over the other I think that they both matter, but love certainly can be blind and I think the experience of going through love is blind Really opened me up to love in ways that I didn't realize it would and I Feel like and there was one question actually I remember This is kind of you know, like there was a question when I was going through all of the there's like a hundred questions They ask you before you go on the show and you answer each one and it said do you think love is blind? And I was kind of like my my initial response was I you know, I don't know like I don't know if it is or isn't I don't think so and then next question was have you ever been in love and I was like yes, and it said Would you still love that person if they were in a different body? And I was like yeah And that that was where I was like and then I kind of changed my answer is like yeah, I think love can be blind And I think about bliss like if tomorrow I woke up and bliss like changed bodies and she was in it Something happened to me like an accident. Yeah, yeah, but like freaky Friday, you know like my love My dad changed bodies right see like I'm cool with like You're you're giving a really good point. I feel like I disagree, but I love I love like you said that so well But then I feel like for my standpoint It's like I'm loving the change that Abby's experiencing as the person that I chose to love You know like I think it's fun to like get to love the version of her now a decade later that we like she's pregnant with Our third boy and like we're so excited for that, but Yeah, tell me tell me tell me more like you're you're saying even if she like looks completely different. Yeah That would be I think that our connection and what we've gone through together. I think we've gone through Yeah, I mean, I think even just in the pods like I Can genuinely I think we both can genuinely say that we loved each other before we saw each other like we loved Who the each person was and you know not to say that like it wouldn't have mattered at all Physically what he looked like maybe it would have and maybe it was just luck that I liked the way he looked, right? But I think that you can there was it's kind of weird to say this But there's actually like a sexual connection like a physical chemistry that I had with him without seeing him And so like I was attracted to him even though I couldn't physically see him so It's weird. It's it's really weird to explain and and maybe hard to understand like if you haven't gone through that but it's You know what I'm saying? Like you yeah, like there's like a is it literally like a physical Reaction my physical attraction happening without seeing him so That's cool. Yeah, it's weird. You see it. You see at the moment when we meet for the first time like after everything that's happened we just like Just clicked and I'll be really like mad. She was but there even with her trying to like I could read through that like I could see that That was yeah chemistry that was there in the pods. Just was there as well physically like in person It's really weird now you're making me wish I could have experienced this with Abby because our version our version of this was just like in high school Staying up till 5 a.m. Like we would fall asleep together on the phone and talk all night long. Do you think love is blind Abby? Don't ask don't put me on the spot like this. It's very compelling. That was really good. Honestly. You're making me like He's so good. I think I don't know. I mean, I think that It's interesting hearing like even both of you you're saying it like it was like the experiences that you had together But it's so crazy because you guys had such a short amount of experiences before you had felt like love so I Yeah, I don't know. I think ultimately I believe that love is a choice and so therefore it can be blind Yeah, I believe in the choice part too. Yeah, I think the commitment is huge and and like that's such a critical part of love is like Committing to another person getting rid of the like I think one thing that really holds Back people from finding their person is this Commoditization of dating treating dating like it's a purchase treating you know treating it like Like people have these lists like they're buying a car, yeah, and they're really not focused on Expecting perfection when they're not no one is perfect like you're not perfect Why would you expect other people to be perfect? Like the questions are asking you it sounds like on that survey Are very different than the questions dating apps are asking where they're like yeah, what is your height? What is your income? Like things like that were like that was very different and it feels like you know as a franchise like what they're doing is Very intentional and science and data backed. It is. Yeah, something I want to share before I forget the creator Um, I don't know how we're doing on time, but I want to share this the creator of the show He's clearly very brilliant and he's created a lot of Various dating shows, but his idea behind love is blind is that when you're in bed at night and the lights are off and you're just talking That's kind of where that came from at the whole idea of like connecting this like when you're laying in bed at night with the lights off Like that's that where a lot of like deep connection can happen and that's where the foundation of this is like You know when we're 90 years old, you know, you know Wrinkly maybe or whatever and we're laying in bed together the lights are off We're not physically seeing each other, but like we're still each other. We're still connecting with who each person is Your guards are down. Yeah, it's easier to be vulnerable. Mm-hmm. So that Hey, I'm so unconvinced. I'm convinced to sack bliss. Thank you so much for coming on our show Thank you for sharing your story and again, congratulations Redemptive birth and postpartum Thank you. I really do you guys too. It's little little boys are so cute. I can't wait. Oh, it's the best And they could really love their moms like a lot So what are you guys most active? Where's the best place for people to connect with you guys? Instagram probably is our most We had a podcast that we were doing things on for a while Which was blind love Yeah, it was actually called blind love We might bring it back. We might talk about it. It's just the time that goes into it, you know, and being parents Any anyway, but thanks so much for having us of course You guys are so cool and we're really happy for your next little bundle. Oh, thank you