Los Javis filmmakers fight fascism and homophobia with ‘La Bola Negra’

This is Fresh Air. I'm Tanya Mosley. In the private clubs of 1930 Spain, members used a tidy little system to decide who belonged. They dropped balls into a box. A white ball meant you were in. A single black ball meant you were out. The gay poet Federico Garcia Lorca began a play about that cruelty. He called it La Bola Negra, the black ball. But before he could finish it, Lorca was arrested and murdered. His body was never found. Only four pages of the play survived. Ninety years later, my guest today, Spanish directors Javier Calvo and Javier Ambrosi, have turned Lorca's pages into an epic about the men spaying shutout, gay men persecuted through the Civil War and the decades of Francisco Franco's dictatorship. The film takes viewers through three timelines, a young man blackballed in 1932, a soldier from 1937, who falls in love with a wounded enemy prisoner, and a contemporary writer who inherits something from a grandfather he never knew, and with it, a past his family kept hidden. The film, which has become a record-breaking hit in Spain, arrives as the country is still fighting about how to remember those years. Last fall, on the 50th anniversary of Franco's death, a government survey found that more than one in five Spaniards now say Franco's dictatorship was good for the country. Calvo and Ambrosi are household names in Spain, known simply as Los Javis. When their film premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in May, the audience stood and applauded for 20 minutes. Days later, they shared the festival's Best Director prize. La Bola Negra stars Spanish singer Guitarica de la Fuente in his first acting role, as well as Penelope Cruz and Glenn Close. Javier Calvo and Javier Ambrosi, welcome to Fresh Air. Hello, how are you? Thank you. Hi, how are you? I am great. Excited to talk with you. Thank you so much. And I'm going to be referring, since you're both Javier, to you by your last name, so folks will understand. That's okay, yes. Yeah. So, Calvo, I just said this film began with Lorca's Four Pages, but for you, I read that it actually began with another play that you read, and when you read it, you burst into tears. Yeah. Piedra Oscura. It's a play that Alberto Conjera made in 2013, and we watched it together, actually, and I bought the book that day. And many years later, we had a project that didn't come out, and we were kind of depressed, sad, and we had a trip to France, and I was like, I'll pick a book, like a quick book, a theater play, so I can read it, and I'm just going to play it, and just forget about this sadness. And I read the first page. It's a monologue with Sebastian, the character that Guitari Cadera Fuente plays, and it was about the bombing of his town. He was telling the audience how the Italians bombed the town, and he had to abandon his mother. And he played in a little orchestra, and it was beautiful, and I started to cry, and I didn't know why. Like, it touched something, like a wound I had with my country, with my community, with my ancestors, my elders, and, yeah, and my family. And I understood I had to talk about the LGBTQ plus people during the Civil War in Spain, and how that inheritance have come to us as a form of silence, pain, and unresolved tension. History tells us a great deal about how gay men were persecuted. It tells us much less about how they actually lived, though. What were some surprises that you discovered that surprised you, Ambrosi? We were researching for a lot with historians, and I think what I learned the most was the feelings that Federico García Lorca had. And that was never told. Like, Federico is seen as. as an artist, and as a writer, and as a playwright, but no one really talk about his relationships. It's more like the literature, only what he wrote, because no one want to talk about the politics, or the loves, or the queerness. And what I learned the most during this movie was about the personal life of Federico García Lorca, because since he's a master, and everyone loves him, and the literature he wrote is so important in the Spanish culture, at some point, someone thought it was not necessary to talk about him in the personal way. But he was a free person, and the loves he had, and the way he approaches life, he approached life, it was so beautiful. What did you have to let go to fictionalize that world, though? Because you only have four pages to go by, and then you have a play and a book, but you, in your own imaginations, have to recreate something that feels real, but also knowing you don't have much information about the way they actually lived. Yeah. I guess we were like detectives, you know? Like, we were trying to understand what Federico García Lorca wanted to write, and we read letters, we read a lot of interviews, and here and there, you could find different moments. Like, oh, he told a friend that after the sister scene, he was going to write a scene, he was going to write a scene with Carlos and his father. Oh, he wrote that in a letter to a friend. Yes. And then, and you can read, like, in the conversations with the friends, he was like, oh, I will talk about this and this and this and this. So we were following the clues, you know? It was fun to discover that he would like to talk about his projects in parties. He would say, I'm going to do, like, this play about the sisters, and the mother is going to be, like, trap them in their house. So, um, I do the same. Oh, you do the same? Yes. In every party, I would, like, talk about my projects, and my, and the things I want to write. And I, I, I like to discover that from him. But that's so good that Federico did that. Because. Now we have the information. We could reimagine La Bola Negra from those four pages. Because of the clues he left in his friends, in his family. And it was beautiful to understand the mind of someone, and what he wanted to write. To discover that. How was that for you? I think about how. There's not much in the way of legacy in history when we think about. I've been thinking, in particular, about your decision to make this an epic. And, you know, historical epics typically are based on something like lineage, and family, history, institutions. But when it comes to the history of gay people, there's less of that lineage that you can go back to. There's less where you can grow up, and we'll talk about this, but you grow up and you hear stories about gay people like this, historical ones. So to be able to see yourselves in the history, through Lorca, through his writing, what was that process like for you in coming into understanding your place, really? We work with a foundation that's called 26th of December. They take care of elders of our community, of LGBTQ+ community. And this was also like how this story was born, because we get to talk to all gay men that would talk about how they fall in love with someone, and the families would turn against them, and they would live together and alone, like, building this relationship. And when the other died, they would, like, be alone and not knowing what to do. They would have nothing to do with their lives and go to the cemetery every day. And, like, understanding that all these people somehow are kind of my grandparents, are kind of like the people that lived a life in a way so incomplete in order for me to have a life that is better than his. Like, they risked their lives with trying to love and trying to have, to fulfill their passion. All those stories are silenced, and talking up with them, understanding Lorca, understanding Cernuda, who is another gay poet in Spain, understanding how we are all connected by, you know, this black ball that we all share, that we pass through each other, to each other every generation, a black ball that is silence, pain, shame, but also is, you know, a spark of life, and desire, and love, and joy, that, you know, I feel, it made me feel proud of my community and of the brave people that fought before me, yes. And it's true that we don't have that many movies or books about the history that connects us as a community, the queer community. That's why we wanted to make it big. We wanted to make it epic. trying to make it bold. we don't have that many stories with that point of view in the queer community and yeah we wanted to make it fun at the same time and mixing genres in order for the young people to be like oh i can connect with that we told them the story with our point of view but hopefully after the movie they will try to learn they will try to study more they will try to to learn about Lorca about the Spanish civil war or their own their own stories because there's queer stories under the ground everywhere when i was writing i always asked myself do i pay tribute enough to the people that came before us oh that was that was something you were thinking about as you were all the time and i and the answer was no with my life i don't pay tribute to the people that came before us i take my freedom for granted i do that you and i don't want to do that i want to be i i i want to be aware and activate it yeah freedom yeah i want to be to try to enjoy my life because of the people that couldn't do that before me we should try at least we are so privileged and a lot of countries they cannot and the lgbtq plus community is still prosecuted a lot of countries Penelope Cruz's character she plays a cabaret performer who um tells one of the main characters a young soldier this uh line that cross-dressing in particular is a world of possibility and war is the opposite and what she's articulating is that before the war there was a world of acceptance in a way that they were living in this very moment of war and this constriction but there was a kind of freedom that was taken away i'm obsessed uh with this uh Madrid uh scene that happened around the 1915 1920 1925 um so uh there's this uh figure called uh coupletistas that's what Penelope is kind of a cabaret girl they would go to uh France Paris and like looked at the folie berger les moulins rouges take those songs bring them to Spain and adapt them in a kind of a nastier way kind of like raunchy a little bit yes can be they talked about sex drugs um they weren't as elegant as uh as they were in France they were more we call it picaras it was uh you know sexy and yeah a little bit trashy but they were amazing and um so this is 1915 and they they would like Madrid was neutral during the war the first war and um everyone everybody would come to Madrid to party and to you know feel free and this generation they thought they were going to be free forever but then uh two dictatorships came and they were prosecuted they were murdered they were they disappeared and it's it's it's shocking to understand that today almost no one remembers them they were kind of lost in history and and that's by design yes and um i i it was shocking to to to to feel the parallelism with the society we live now in which we think we could be free forever like we're gonna be free forever like we conquered the rights like we're here but history repeats itself you know fascism is raising and it's uh a worrying thing and you know our weapon against intolerance and hate is our writing and making movies and this is what we're here to do but yeah yeah yeah it's worrying um i'm just holding on to a lot of the lines from the film because uh they're so lyrical they're very poetic and there's this line in your film a gay man's heart is an ocean of secrets but that's not very poetic because it's a tribute to titanic so it was more like a funny thing that we is a wink to the audience that the people that knows knows those who know no they understand yeah besides the titanic tribute we wanted to do a poetic movie because uh i think poetry is the opposite of fascism because poetry is full of meanings for everyone and it's polysemic and poetry um everyone will understand differently and in it's meant to be understood by everyone in a different way every single when you guys were young um did either of you have an older gay person in your life or figure in society that showed you what your future might look like i didn't but you did javi no my my uncle carlos uh is he's the brother of my mother and uh he was so so so so uh mysterious because when i was a kid no one was talking about him it was like hmm he lives in la oh and uh you will meet him at some point and i was like what's going on with this guy and uh when uh when we really met when i was a teenager i was going through understanding myself and meeting him was like hmm i think you knew i was i knew and he knew and he knew from how did you know that he knew because i was uh it wasn't uh in the christmas uh eve and the dinner and i was about to cry because i was like having a bad moment uh and he was like hmm come here you have to go to come to la at some point and you have to just travel and and understand the world and everything will be okay whatever you're going through it will be okay and i think it was one of the first persons that saw me and so having reference it's very very important and to see yourself in different people around because if not isolation is so dangerous for the queer community and it's so so sad it's like it really breaks your heart did you take him up on that offer to come to la yeah how old were you yeah 18 okay and i had because it was like oh i i used to live in la and i want to come back to madrid so i left my dog and it was like do you want to go there and and bring back the my dog it's like okay i will do it and he buy me a ticket like a plane ticket and i came here and and i i brought back his dog and and in the meantime i had fun and i knew myself better and i met his friends and it was like hmm it was like such a beautiful moment of discovery you know i met different kind of people because i i grew up in a very catholic school all boys and in a traditional environment so to me it was like hmm am i the only one experienced this yes i felt like i was weird and i felt it was a sin and i felt it was like hmm something is wrong with me i'm going to hell that kind of things because that's what you were taught in catholic school every day so suddenly to have an uncle like my uncle carlos to say you're okay i'm like you you go you have fun you experience this journey you will understand there's more people like you all over the world and i think now with social media that's a little bit better because you can see yourself in others easier but when i was young i'm 42 and when i was young it was like oh my god i think now he's very proud oh yeah he's still alive and he's yes and he's very proud has he seen this movie yeah and what did he think he was like you're doing this like you you are you made this you you you made it and you interpreted that is like like you you wanted to do this and you did you did this movie for all of us yes and he's so proud but it's very shy at the same time so yeah you know a gay man's heart it's an ocean you understand that there's a there's an unsaid and unspoken understanding yeah and the things that are said and and and also i experiment something like that when i saw uh my first uh my best friend's wedding when i was a kid oh the movie yeah the movie and i saw rupert everett yes on screen yeah i had that also i had a moment of revelation i was like he is gay he's like me i see him i just knew he wasn't faking it there's an identity like they try to say like it's who you sleep or you don't sleep um when i was eight years old they would call me names and i wasn't sleeping with anyone obviously it was it was about identity it's not even sexual orientation it was it's about it's about who we are and and you can read it and and and it's it's mysterious how a little kid in i don't know like iowa has the same things uh they like the same things we we share taste we share many things um and we haven't met each other my guest today are spanish filmmakers javier calvo and Javier Ambrosi, known together as Los Javis. Their new film is La Bola Negra. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is Fresh Air. Javier Calvo, your story is that you were into the arts very young, and you were actually on a very popular teen show, playing a gay teenager. This was before, though, you had actually come out not only to the world, but to yourself. And so when you're talking about being a young man, and even being so young as eight, and people are identifying this thing in you, what is that like to have people telling you this thing about yourself before you've even told it to yourself? So I had a hard time in school being a gay kid. So when I was a teenager, I tried to build myself in a different way. And when I got casted in this show, I was 16 years old. And the other day, I just—because with this, with this movie, people are, like, getting old interviews and, you know, like, researching media. Like, our first interview with Javier Calvo. So they posted an interview I made when I was 16. And I was like, how is it like to do a gay character? And I was like, I had to research a lot and ask people who had gone through the same thing. And it was interesting because it's a character that's so far from me. Just looking at your old self like, poor guy. What did you have to lie? That is so beautiful that you learned through a gay character on screen who you were. Yes. Like, you were discovering yourself at the same time he was playing a gay character. Right. That's amazing. That's the power of fiction, like, in another level. Was there anything about that character, though, that helped you with that coming out? Just in the dialogue and the ways that you had to embody it. Well, I had to portray the things I've never done, but I was going to do. It was like a rehearsal, you know, of my life. Like what? Come out to my parents. Yeah, to have the first kiss. Come out to my parents in a scene. So I did it for national TV before I did it in my house, having my first kiss. I did it on the screen before doing it in my life. Even, like, you know, loose virginity. Right. Right. Right. My character did it first than me. And, you know, it was like I was doing all these things from 16 to 17, 18. And then I got to do them myself. So it was less scary. You know, I had done it before on the fiction. It is beautiful that to me it was my Uncle Carlos, but to you it was Fer, the character you created. It was my, yeah. That your own self, you created a character that inspired you. I guess my gay godfather would be the writer of that show who taught me the way. Yes. I mean, the show made you famous. Then nobody would hire you. Nobody would. I wouldn't even audition. It was weird. I didn't get any audition. I don't know. It was a time in Spain where, and I don't know why. Well, I guess you were a gay character, a gay actor, and there were more gay roles. And they would say, OK. If there's a gay role, we will call you. But there were no gay roles at all. So I wouldn't work. Did you feel you were typecast? Yes, but I wouldn't care to be typecast if there were roles were there. And that's the whole point. That's why we say, well, if there's a gay role, let it be played by a gay man. Because he would understand. There would be like a more like a connection with the character. But he at least can get to work because I couldn't. There's not so many. There are. There are not so many. And it's all over the LGBTQ plus community. We historically, we haven't get to act that much and work that much. Although it was good for me because I remember that my passion was to write. So in those two years of just not doing anything, just trying to survive, I decided to get a ticket to New York and go there and just try to take acting classes and I discovered theater, off-Broadway theater, and I was like, oh, maybe I want to do that. I'm right. And I. What were you writing? Well, we wrote our first play. We met there. We met in New York. Like, no, we, we, we shared the New York moment. We met like three years before that. But I said to him, I'm going to New York. And he said, I'm going to. So I went there, like, I took, I got in a plane. I got in a plane on the 1st of January, like on the, like after the New Year's Eve. Yeah. And you came two days after I left, he, he came. So we, we stood there, like we were there two days and I said to him, I watched all these theater plays. It was amazing. We'll talk when you come back. Because we were friends. And what year was this? It was 2011. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I think that summer we got to know each other and then after that summer, we started to write. I think that, that, that summer we wrote our first little play. There was a 15 minutes play. So we presented it to a theater. It was rejected that, uh, that autumn. And in winter of 2012, we got to premiere our first little, little, little, little show. And. Which show was this? It was, it was, okay. So there was, it was the crisis. No, there was no money. No, nobody was working. And in Madrid, there was like this little theater, houses that were like, it was plays in a house, you know? It was called Microteatro, Microteatro. And it was for 15 people. Yeah. And we, it was like 15 minutes plays. And so we made that. It was, it was actually a love story between two women. Yes. One of your biggest hits though, is this musical about a teenage girl at a Catholic summer camp. We, after, after the Microteatro, we were like, oh, maybe we can do it better. Yes. So we wrote a musical. And this musical, I just have to say. So it's about a teenage girl at a Catholic summer camp. God appears to her and sings Whitney Houston. That's it. Yes. We were, we were young. Oh my God. But it was, it was a big hit and it was fun. It was actually very campy and very fun. And it was a phenomenon. That was their starting point of everything. We wrote that musical and without any production, we put it together with friends, actors. We just made it everything. And suddenly it became a phenomenon. It was crazy. In Spain, we were sold out for more than 10 years. Oh, oh, that, wow. Like, year after year, it was crazy. And, and then afterwards we could direct the adaptation for the screen of that musical. That was the first, like our first chance to direct a movie. And that's where we learned, oh, I think maybe we are meant to do this, to direct and write for the screen. My guests are Spanish filmmakers, Javier Calvo. And Javier Ambrosi. Their new film, La Bola Negra, tells interwoven stories of gay love and persecution across generations of Spanish history. We'll be right back after a break. This is Fresh Air. When did you guys know or understand, that moment, when you're understanding that you're more powerful together than apart? From the first play. From the first play, it was like, we, we, we got really along. Really good. I remember sending him the first lines that I proposed to write for a, for a fresh play and he was like, oh, I loved it. And since then, it's been like a really natural collaboration. Today, we were like, now in the car talking about the next project and we're like getting excited about like the things we want to talk about. Yeah. So, yeah. Have you been able to identify what that thing is? Because, you know, there's a lot of talented people who are both really good at what they do. And like the same things, but there's another level to understanding that you bring out the best in each other. It's kind of a mystery how we really are connected, like connected brains. Even in, in an interview, I know when he has to talk, I know when I have to talk, when he wants to intervene. Like it's, it's a true connection. From the first day, it is weird and mysterious. And I think it's because we are so different that it's like, we are so different. Like Javi is very. Specific and detailed and, and I'm like very emotional and, and I love to work with atmospheres and also we are so different, like in our souls. I think it was like, when they say that they have just in Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Of course. Yes. That happened in Hedwig and the Angry Inch. Wait, explain it for those who don't know what that is though. That they suddenly, they're like. Cut, the same person cut in half. Yeah. It's like, like, I felt like I was not enough by myself. So when I met him, he completed and he made me a whole. Yeah. And the, and the cut like left me with a lot of skills in one side, but non-skills on the other. Like I'm, I'm like in the things he shines, I'm like the worst. Maybe I got relaxed, but he's like the most organized person. He would like leader an army. And I would be like, I'm a mess, you know. And I don't have like memory. Like, I won't remember a thing. You won't even remember my name when you leave, huh? Yeah. No, no, no. I understand. I remember every movie I've watched, for example, every scene. When we were working in this movie about Federico García Lorca, Javi learned every play and poem by heart. So I felt very secure that we were doing a great job and I could focus on doing other things, like the budget of the movie or having meetings with networks because we needed more money or, I don't know, or handpicking every extra. Like, there's no directors that can do that. Like, I will handpick thousands of extras of my movie and select everything I want. I did that because he was focusing on other things. If not, you don't have the time when you're preparing a movie. To be that detailed, absolutely. So being too really alert. Allowed me to be better in my true self. Yeah. And I think that's what happened. And now we are connected because we developed a part of ourselves. He developed a part of himself. It's like, we cannot do it by ourselves. We're incomplete. Well, I mean, two halves make a whole, but you're known in Spain and now the United States is Los Javis. I mean, do people forget that you are two people? They do. They usually do. And now. We were like, for a while, we were craving individuality. And now it's good that we have more individuality. Like, we've gone through that. It was unhealthy at some point. Did it take you all breaking up? Because you announced that you broke up. We were friends. We didn't announce it like it was out, but people knew. But it's true that we were friends. Then we became a romantic couple for 13 years. Then we broke up because it was, like, unhealthy. Like, it was like we needed to find ourselves. Yeah, because it was too much. Like, I would go to the street and people would say to me, I'm happy to see you, too. And I'm like, well, I'm alone. How are you guys? And I'm like, well, I am good. Are you seeing another person? Don't know about Ray and Rosie. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but that happened. You guys were together for 13 years as a romantic couple. Yes. And. You decided, though, this is what I read, so you tell me this, that you all decided going to Cannes, like, after this is over, we're no longer. Was it as a romance or as a collaborative unit? No, no, no. We broke up during the shooting, but it wasn't, like, a nice, like, it was all good. We didn't even have a fight. But after Cannes, we were like, okay, let's try to explore. Maybe you can produce me a movie I direct or maybe, you know. I can write something with you, but you direct it, like, craving that individuality. But, you know, after Cannes, it was like, you remember that line from Godfather 3? Just when I was getting out, they dragged me back in. Yeah. We won together, and we understood that we had to stick together, and it was good. That 20-minute ovation. Yes, it was like, you know. It was like, oh, my God, I'm not going anywhere. You're not sitting down. You have to keep working together. And it's fine. I'm happy. It was like, there was a need of. Like, individuality. But I think we already have it in our personal lives, and I think it's healthy. You broke up during the shooting of this movie. Yeah, but it was very civilized. But it's not like you're breaking up, like, in a bad way. It's like, I think it was like. Move on. Fading out. I know you've talked about this with other interviewers before, but did it bleed into the movie itself? How did that. But in a good way, because you. In what way? Well, you are talking about passion, about love. And you need to be honest as an artist. And we had, like, a mature conversation. We said, let's move on and let's write. Let's keep on directing this movie in an honest and cathartic way, you know? When you're writing a movie about paying tribute to the people that came before you in the LGBTQ plus community and about how our rights are based on their suffering, it's like, hmm, I just need at least to try. To be happy. And we weren't happy in that relationship, so we changed. Because of the three storylines, there is the third one, which is more contemporary. It's set in 2017, and the characters are together. They're two men who are together, but you're not quite sure if they're romantically involved or not. Like, they're living in the same apartment together. That's it. We were kind of writing about, yeah, trying to figure. Writing is trying to figure out. Writing is trying to figure out things about your life. And we were trying to figure out where were we, I think. And we were wondering all the time when we were writing, are they going to, like, finish together? Are they going to break up? And we were wondering it about ourselves. And we are that kind of artist. We try to put something personal every time. Yeah, if I don't learn with a project, I will be like, hmm, bad. It's a bad sign. So we need to do that. And we push. We push our team and the actors towards the catharsis all the time. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are Spanish filmmakers Javier Calvo and Javier Ambrosi, known together as Los Javis. This is Fresh Air. I want to talk about one of your other projects. Because I just got through binging it, and it's just top of mind for me. In 2020, you made Veneno, a series about Christina Ortiz. In Spain, they called her La Veneno, the poison. That's what that translates to. And her story goes like this. In 1996, a TV crew found her in a Madrid park where she worked as a sex worker. And within weeks, she was a star on late-night television. And Spain couldn't stop watching her. Who was she? Well, she was a trans icon in the 90s. She was famous for a short period of time. Do you remember her? I remember her in her renaissance when she came out of jail because she went to jail. And she was, like, big and nasty and saying all these fun things. And she would go to all the, you know, TV shows and just talk and shout. And she was, like, a meme and a really fun woman that would share her clips on the Internet. But Javi, he was a little kid, and she was, like, this beautiful goddess on the television. Yeah, I think it was the first trans person that I saw on TV when I was a kid. And I was like, wow. And she really represented that, the freedom, the fight. So when we were thinking about what we wanted to write, at some point, it was like, I want to write something meaningful and something with a purpose. And Veneno came up to our minds, and it was like, oh, yes, we need to try to do a show about the trans experience because we didn't have that in Spain. And he loved her. Yeah. That's different than accepting her. Yeah. Absolutely. That's good. That's exactly what happened. It was like, in the 90s, people was obsessed with her. Like, hmm, who is she? Like, in a very instinctive way. People was like, oh, I'm obsessed with her. She's so beautiful. And who is she? From curiosity. But more like a circus attraction, you know? Yeah. Like, she would be, she was so beautiful. She was so. She was so authentic and very Spanish-coded. And she had a difficult life. When she got to jail, she got to a men jail. And that. Right. She was trans, but they put her in a men's prison. Yeah. And that broke her completely. What was it like for you guys? In the series, you don't hold back on that part. You actually show the brutality of prison life. Oh, that episode is so hard. Yeah. Yeah. It was like a moment of her life that really changed her forever. She came, yeah, she came back, like, really transformed. But it is. We cannot repeat that. Like, I think that that's why fiction is so important. And fiction based on facts and history is very important because a lot of people is going to see it. And seeing and understanding what happened is a very fast way to create empathy. And we just wanted to be sure that we were creating that, like, empathy about the trans people. It's like, that cannot happen again. It's like, what crazy country can do that? Ambrose, your parents were pretty young when they had you. They were teenagers themselves. Your mom was 18 years old, right? Your dad, not much older. You essentially. Essentially grew up together. Yeah. I have that feeling that, in a way, I was my parents' parent and i think that's why i have that this weight in my shoulders like a lot of responsibility what does that look like it was fun in a way because my mother was so young and uh she was studying like at the same time i was growing yeah it was like in a law school like for to be a lawyer oh and um it was difficult and i was there and uh it looks like a big big big uh weight in your shoulders to be the parent of a parent it is hard but yeah i have to remember myself that i that i can be free did it allow you to be a kid i don't think so i think that's why i always try to find moments of joy and fun every time i can i try to be like funny or like what like when like in a set it will be in the darkest moment of a set in the darkest and i will be like doing a joke and how it will be like can you stop i don't know i cannot i try to find moments of joy all the time because i haven't had that many but yeah and i and i think i grew up trying to be a director a writer and producer because of that responsibility um i don't mind being in charge of everything i really don't mind it's like i know i can he is the best production designer like he no the presence i know he's the best producer of life and of uh art i will be like i will do it he he he is organized he's like fierce in that yeah or everyone anyone that has a problem i will be like give it to me i'll solve it yes give it to me i can i can do it i can do it i can you're the adult who can make it happen yeah that does make you feel so lonely i'm just curious about how you all are evolving as storytellers and would you ever consider or have you or are you working on projects that are individual to the two of you that are are not as a unit my individual project now is um my life oh what do you mean yes having a life yeah having a house yeah i don't have because we share the house having uh you know having my own friends having that's tough having yeah when you've you've 13 years of like one having my solitude you will need a production design of that too yeah i i need to be alive yes um but i i will i will i don't but i think uh we're gonna stick uh together and write and direct and produce the next projects javier ambrosi and javier calvo this has been such a pleasure thank you thank you so much javier calvo and javier ambrosi's new film is la bola negra tomorrow on fresh air i'll talk with journalist anand girdard us his new book man in the mirror looks at the 2023 death of michael jackson impersonator jordan neely on a new york subway anand spent years trying to understand not just what happened on that train but why americans came away with such different ideas about who was right who was wrong and what justice should look like i hope you can join us to keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews follow us on instagram at npr fresh air fresh executive producer is sam brigger our technical director and engineer is audrey bentham our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by phyllis myers ann marie baldonado lauren krinzel theresa madden monique nazareth thea challoner susan yakundi anna bauman and nico gonzalez whistler our digital media producer is molly cv nesper roberta shorrock directs the show with terry gross i'm tanya mosley