Looking for Process Mining Success? Customer Success Manager to the Rescue!

This is the Minding Your Business Podcast, a show all about process, minding data science, and advanced business analytics. Today, we will be talking to my colleague Emma Differn, Yakub. How you doing? >> I'm doing quite nice Patrick. >> That's great. Well, I'm glad you're doing nice because we are basically going to be asking you all about your new job, which is customer success manager. So we're going to be talking about what is customer success, why we have introduced it, and what Yakub does all day. If you are curious as to what all that means, stick around, and let's get into it. >> Let's go. [MUSIC] >> Hello again, and we are back with episode 61 of the Minding Your Business Podcast. I got to say Patrick, that the lead time of the invite to record process for our podcast is getting longer and longer. >> Yeah, the lead time to record. Basically, when I first sent an invite to a guest and before they come in, it's just sometimes, I think I have a few people in the pipeline who I've been in touch for over nine months already. So it's really joining me not sometimes. >> Yeah, I can think of a few guests that are invasive, I think, is the best way to sing. >> Yeah, so generally quite difficult to plan sometimes, but I think all of those people are really worth waiting for, and actually speaking of which we were supposed to be recording today with a guest, Henrik Olsen from Tellia. So you will hear from him in the soon future in the near future, but you just have to wait a little bit longer because we've had some technical issues. That actually leads me to two things. First of all, we were pushed into a corner here because we are really, really tight on the schedule and we really had to put an episode out. Because our two weeks are coming to an end and we have roughly a week before already, so we had to come up with something and I'm looking at you, Patrick, and I know you love to scramble ideas around. >> I think faster my feet, what can I say? >> Yeah, the preparation was a few minutes before recording, so I hope it has a structure and you guys are enjoying the episode. But that also leads me to a second fault and maybe a little request that I have from you, dear listeners, and that is that we would be very thankful for any recommendation of any potential guest that we could get our hands on. I know that there are so many interesting figures out there in the world of process mining, business process management, and so on, that we simply don't know that are out of our reach or out of our connections. And yeah, if you know of someone who you would think could be nominated for our show, we would very much like to have them on, so please send us your recommendations so that we can get in touch and eventually invite some new cool people on the show who would be willing to share them their wisdom and experience in our show. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean, because our circles are mainly European based, but I know this process mining goes far and far into the world, so the more you know and the more, or maybe you have somebody in mind that you've always wanted to have an interview or have so many have an interview with this person because you think it'd be really interesting. Shoot us a mail, shoot us a message, shoot us anything, and we'll try and organize something. >> Yeah, but given the circumstances and knowing that we will be releasing an episode in a week that also gives us a little, let's say, potential for promoting creatively new, new, worthy things that are happening right now. So I think there is one thing that we want to mention and that is that next week there will be a Salonist world tour, which our company is attending in. Actually, this episode will go out the day after the first stage, which will be in Munich. So if you have attended just reach out to us, we are curious what you've seen, what we talked to, and what you're excited about. But I'm also going to be attending the World Tour in June 8th in Amsterdam and on June 21st in London. So you might have just a chance to talk to me there, and I would be very happy to talk to you as well. >> That's great. Yeah, and also another thing that we want to announce is our recent submission for the Knobbrems Salonist Sustainability Hackathon that's one of our colleagues, Anton Erit, actually one. So yeah, that was a big thing. If you would like to read about our Salonist Sustainability Hackathon and what we did, please feel free to go to our LinkedIn page process and I think it's one of the last posts there. >> Yeah, and that actually brought us to an idea of inviting Anton here on the show in the near future and talking about the sustainability topics because we know that there is a lot of hunger for that, that there will be legislations in place in the near future, or they are, that are putting companies into the, that are forcing them to be more sustainable, to be more thoughtful of their processes and of the causes that they are creating when it comes to environmental topics. So I think this will be an interesting discussion. I personally, well, when I studied all the way back, I studied smart building technologies and the environmental topics were always on the table and I am a big fan of this and I'm very curious and also interested in how process mining can actually help. >> Yeah, I mean, the data is out there somewhere, maybe it's a problem of data acquisition. Who knows, right? But this is something that is going to happen in the future and I'm looking forward to see how we can use process mining specifically in a process context to figure out more sustainable ways of doing things. >> Yeah. Anyway, we just spent five minutes talking about some newsworthy stuff that's happening around us. It's exciting time and what is also exciting, I think, is my new role in the company, which I've been doing for roughly, what is it, four months now, and then is a customer success. To be honest, I still rather introduce myself as a data scientist or data analyst rather than customer success manager because I would have a hard time explaining most of the people who are not even familiar with the world of consulting or software and so on. What it actually means, so I just said, yeah, I just do data analysts or data science. >> Well, okay, so you're not quite sure, but man, we're going to try to figure it out today, what it is that you actually do. >> Yeah, yeah. We're going to discuss the new role that I'm taking, but also the reasons and the motivation in why a consulting company that focuses on booting data science as we very often like to call ourselves and specifically on process mining. What does it bring on the table? I think that's the overlying idea here, and therefore what is a customer success manager's job? >> Let's go figure this out. So let's focus, first of all, first and foremost, on customer success. There's two words that I understand, one customer and success, but what does that mean to you? What does customer success mean to you? >> I'll trick it's pretty simple. We are in consulting business, so what we are doing is that we are actively consulting our customers on whatever data specific problem that they have. And we all know that we are focusing on process mining, so we work with a process mining software, we work with cellonists, and we are making sure that the technology is rolled out in a successful fashion. However, it's not 2018 anymore, and just implementing and rolling out the technology is no longer sufficient. There are a lot of competitors, even in our field, who can do this pretty decently as well. And therefore, every consulting company is looking for this extra edge that they can have in their initiatives. What it means is that when you are working a project and you are supporting a company with bringing up the knowledge, bringing up the experience, but it's not only the software that you're rolling out, it's also the domain-specific knowledge. If you're building a purchase to pay process, you have accumulated some experience with other customers over the years, or what problems they are facing, what issues they are trying to tackle using the process mining technology. And that's ultimately what you as a consulting company bring on the table. That's the experience, that's probably the speed of the project, of the implementation, and being really able to drive the initiative as smoothly as possible. That's what the companies that are using this are actually expecting for their money to receive. What customer success then means is that this all is achieved, and hopefully there is also something extra. That means that not only that you are successful in rolling out the technology, but you can also navigate the customer into areas where the customer might not even think of. And that's when we speak about process mining and you've heard it over and over and over again in every of our episode, that's the value. You don't want to end up at the end of the project with just the implementation with no clear idea or strategy behind what you want to do next. And we are prime positioned into helping you understand what comes in the next step after you done and after you have successfully implemented this technology. And that's exactly what we call a process mining iceberg that you have above the surface, you have this tip of the iceberg, but below is everything else. And customer success, in my opinion, and it's also what I'm trying to do now, is to raise awareness about everything that's below the surface before the company even starts thinking of it. So those are topics such as the adoption, enablement of the users, the strategy, the other areas that the company could go in with the customer success. And by facilitating this discussion and discussing these ideas in the right time, at the right place, you ensure that the customer is actually leveraging the technology in the right way, and that they are generating some sort of value whatever this might be. And therefore, the customer is happy, they are successful and therefore you can call yourself a customer success manager because you may then go into this next step. Okay, so to paraphrase, if you were to have a client and they are new to process mining, right, because we can have several stages of, I would say, establish process mining initiatives, right. So let's just say we're completely at the beginning, where process mining is new, or it might be new to a specific department or a part of the company. And then when they say, okay, well, we want to implement process mining because if we think it might solve this and this and this, it's then your job to make them think like, okay, we might identify these inefficiencies, but now we also, you also have to start thinking about what you want to do about it, right, because that's, that should be done before we actually start implementing, like how we aim to actually tackle the issues that we're going to see. Yeah, in, in a way, because and again, I will be reverting to a lot of episodes with a lot of way more smarter people than we are, Patrick, that talked about these topics that always say similar thought, similar experience with how the adoption then goes and that you should think about the next step because process mining is just part of this big cock of business process management. And if you want to improve things, you, you need to think ahead. And that means leveraging the technology in the right way, being able to enable people to do that. And this is exactly what the customer success manager helps you do. I mean, we have clients that we have been consulting for years and years and years. Yeah. And so I think I'm curious as to how you then define customer success. Is it something that changes over time, right? Do you set specific goals? Like when it process mining in its infancy, success is defined differently than if it's an established customer with like already 17 initiatives or something, right? So how do you find the where to pinpoint success? Yeah. So I think the success still goes in this. I think the huge bucket is the value that the customer generates. And it doesn't matter whether you're just starting or whether you have been doing it for five years. Every company that's doing process mining is always going to be asking about the value. So what did it, what did it bring? What did we achieve? And whether you're starting with one smaller process in procurement with a completely new area or completely new company that is basically new to process mining, you still should be aware of this that this company is hoping for the best possible outcome, which is optimizing their processes and reducing waste. And you should navigate the company to this point where they have at least some sort of some sort of results, tangible results, where they can say, oh, this actually helped me. And now I actually can understand this technology better, which puts me into prime position to maybe drive this initiative also in other areas where I see that we could benefit from what process mining is doing. On the other hand, you also should manage the expectation because you know how things go. You have seen this before. You have already accumulated some experience yourself in meaning that you can tell the customers what the process mining is not and that is mainly that you should not expect a solar bullet that's just going to fix everything for you. It's ultimately, I would almost say a change of mindset, a change of thinking where you just go into areas which you are maybe not even meant to do properly, which is the process of continuous process improvement. So that's with the new company and with the, let's say, more adult company that's been doing process mining for a while. I've seen it a few times that there is this, and again, a steam of Peter's going to determine this despair, there's this wellay of despair when you start the initiative everybody's excited and then you simply go into this hole and you're thinking, what am I doing? I'm just wasting money here and nothing is coming out of it and at that phase, I think of customer success as sort of a coach or a motivational person that can come into the customer's environment, check whatever has been done and maybe generate some further ideas. And drum up enthusiasm, right? And motivation of course. Of course. Again, and that's another statement from, now I forgot the name, but the digital Sherpa, right, that you actually held the customer. Oh, yeah, Lenga, exactly. When he basically says that you need to navigate the horrors that can come at different phases of the project and especially after the initial excitement is gone, which usually happens, I would say, a few months after the initial implementation, because then everybody realizes, oh, this will actually mean a lot of work for me. It's true that I'm not doing this. And part of the customer success is to bridge this gap between expectation and enthusiasm and the actual work that needs to be done as a follow-up. And as a customer success manager, you should understand when and how this happens and be able to tackle the customer at the right areas, you know, the right people to help them get away from this, you know, wallet of despair. Out of the value of despair. Now, what are some of the top three obstacles that you have in your role as customer success manager? Top three obstacles. Well, so for instance, I started doing this for a customer where I, well, I knew the customer, but I haven't been on any of the project for past, well, two or three years. And the implementation and the whole environment is massive. There's a lot of things that's going on and there are also that the people who are driving in our pretty mature and have been doing for a while, so they know exactly what they're doing. And there it's a bit difficult for me to get the speed with what has been going on and to properly understand the nature of the problems that I can be help addressing. And yeah, generally, it's a bit more complex and difficult with customers that are already doing pretty well. So there you just, you know, you have to be careful not to step on anyone's toes and everything. Well, so well, because people have their own agendas, right? People know what they want to do. And sometimes you just have to understand that everybody has agendas. Everybody has different goals. And that's why you should be able to pull for the same rope there. Yeah, is that a hard to identify sometimes or? Well, I think you'll understand in the first call when you get into that. What other problems did I face? I don't know, Patrick. No problems. No problems. That's already a good sign. If there's really no obstacles, then that's already is that already good. Now, how much of customer success I wanted to ask is not just, I mean, you talked about value and values, of course, important because the projects and the initiatives and all of that need to pay for themselves at some point, right? But how much of customer success is based on a client's feelings towards the initiative? You know, did it go well? You know, that sort of thing. Maybe there were some humps along the road or something. Like how much does that play into it? Yeah. So what you're probably asking is just a general customer satisfaction. And that can probably go into ways. One would be the satisfaction with our services as a consulting company. So part of my role is, again, making sure that whatever we are doing, we are achieving with this that, you know, if we promise to deliver something, we actually promise it that we are doing well, we are understanding and so on so forth. So that's one part. And the other part would be again, the generated value again, because you even, you know, when you accumulate certain experience, you start thinking or you start maybe sometimes seeing some patterns and you listen to a customer who wants to build something and you're thinking, yeah, maybe that's not the best idea. Maybe let's go a different way because this might not, this might be complex or the added value might be too low. So, you know, you already can navigate this journey a bit ahead of the time and telling the customer, let's try to focus on different area because you want to generate something out of it. And while this might be interesting, maybe you're not really prime, do that just it. And therefore collecting the customer feedback is also part of the job because you want to know how your team is doing, especially if you have multiple people on the project, if there are more initiatives, more processes. So this might be a little more required because there's, there needs to be a lot of cooperation between the teams. And ultimately, what you can do is something called an NPS, which is a net promoter score, which is I see your shrugging that you've probably ever heard of it. No, the net promoter score is basically a metric that tells you how you're doing and it's basically a scale of 0 to 10 and it tells you like how likely is it that you will be recommended as a company. So as process and will be recommended by a customer to colleagues, some other business partners or business associates or some other companies. And what you do there is basically based on a given metric. So you're collecting points from 0 to 10. It's basically saying how likely the person who's responding on this is likely to recommend you to someone else. And then you basically categorize the people to the tractors and promoters and you get some sort of an index of how the company is generally happy with you and whether they would recommend you forward to someone else. And ultimately, you want this score to be as high as possible when I was reading on this, anything about 50 would be fantastic and you would be doing great. And if you're doing this, that means that the customers are happy. And as I said, the happen is doesn't come only from as you are performing as a company because you can be performing perfectly. But if you're getting nothing out of it, they probably not recommend you because they don't see the value in doing this in the first place. And also, I mean, if they're really unhappy with how you're doing, and you still have a bunch of value saved, at least you can always point. It's like, hey, I know the project didn't go as smoothly as we thought, but you're still a bunch of money that we were able to save. Yeah. So this is the metrics that I'm trying to roll out. Again, this is still more on a, it's like an idea on the paper and I'm still thinking of how I can implement these ideas because a lot of these things are also new for me. I'm also checking with a lot of my colleagues who are, let's say, more senior and have more experience with working and consulting. But also some external help. I did consult a couple of ideas with, for instance, Diderick, who was on our podcast before and some of these ideas are really invaluable. So I'm trying to roll this out. And ultimately, what would come out of it is that you simply have some sort of a metrics of the customers. And you know how happy they are. And by based on a one simple number. And if someone's not happy, well, then probably this is an area that you should probably dig into a bit more and understand what is going on and why is this not happening. And the biggest perk of having a dedicated person to do this is that you can sort of release this stress from the people who are actually working on the project so that you make them, you allow them to concentrate the focus on the work that they are actually supposed to do, which is to deliver a project. And whether you are a project manager, a data scientist or consultant, you probably don't have time or capacity to worry about these things, which are a bit more vague, are not as defined as a standard implementation or standard project. And my get lost between the lines a little bit. Yeah, I mean, so the so whenever we have a client where with a net promoter score that is dropping or is low, then it's Captain Jakob to the rescue to figure out what was going on and really energize this initiative again. Yeah, let's see how it goes. That's again, one of the ideas that is still in the making, but I really want to want to want to do this and see, yeah, basically see how happy the customers are and maybe also see how it aligns with our own understanding of the of the customer in the first place. Yeah, so now you said already and you also prefaced this entire podcast that we're doing this for you've been doing this for what four months. Yeah, yeah. Right. So now the question is, why did we start doing this in the first place? Like, why do we create the role of a customer success manager in the first place? Yeah, that's also a good question. And I've been even confronted by by another another friend of mine who was even asking, why do you need the customer success when you're doing consulting? And it hasn't been an easy answer to be honest because customer success roles are usually defined mainly for software companies, which are trying to make sure that the software is running well. And maybe the customer success is not the best name for the position if you are coming from consulting, consulting background. And in general, even in this customer success role, you're probably doing two things. You are partially a consultant and partially an account executive because you are obviously also keeping your ears and eyes open for any opportunities. Because as you said before, Patrick, you we are still a company that needs to generate money. Yeah. We're on a politic about that. Yeah, of course, of course. That's the purpose of companies. Yeah, of course. And given the fact that we are also, I mean, we've been around for six, seven years now as a process and when you're starting out as a startup, you don't really have capacity to have an educated person to not be making, not be performing or working on a project and actually earning money for the company most of their times. You simply cannot afford it. But as you grow and you are building a bigger customer base, you already went the lengths of acquiring the customers in the first place, you want to keep them as long as possible and help them on their journey for, you know, because it's ultimately also your resume on how the customers are doing long term. And at certain point when this happens, for us, it happened basically this year. When we are like at 50 people, we already have dozens of customers around. So we, at least I personally really liked what Salonis is doing there where they do have the customer value architects, which is probably a counterpart to what I'm doing. They also have their own customers and they are helping them generate the value, understand the tool, understand the system that you have to build around the tool to operationalize it. That's a difficult word. Operationalize. Yeah, thank you, Patrick. And we basically wanted to do the same because we are on the same boat with this, both with the vendor that is basically selling the software, but also with the customer that is trying to utilize the software to the best of their capacity. And therefore we said, let's try it out. Let's test it out. And what I'm doing here is just capitalizing on all the knowledge I was able to extract through the podcast and get also obviously from working on all those other projects that I've been part of in my five years of career, which again, not a lot. I mean, the point, I think, or at least what I think, why we now have the room to actually, or the reason why we implemented customer success, or at least this was my initial thought when you told me that you're going to do this, is that when we're implementing stuff, which is bread and butter, of what we do, it's hard to focus on the bigger picture, because you start thinking about this KPI and this little and this data science thing and this piece of code, and you get kind of tunnel visioned because you're trying to solve problems that are current and the things that you need to do to get the project going. But having someone that kind of sits on top of all that and looks it over and makes sure that it's running smoothly and all that stuff, but make sure that the overall goals, not like that KPI is implemented, but like the overall strategic goals of the clients are being met with whatever we're doing, keeping a closer finger on the pulse of the company and the health of the company and the health of this initiative is the benefit, because as I said, the people that are working on the implementation kind of have a smaller focus in that sense. And you hit the nail on the head here, Patrick, with this, because what happens is imagine that you're a company that's been doing process mining for a few years now. You have 10 processes, you have, in every process, you have 10 use cases. So suddenly you are end up like with the 10 processes and 100 use cases. I guarantee you that most of this will be rarely used, because simply very often what happens is that everybody's excited, you build a lot of different use cases, a lot of ideas, everything goes into it. And unless you have a very strong system in place, it will happen that some of these use cases are simply dropped or are underutilized for various reasons. It can be just changing of priorities, changing of people who were, you know, who were answering or who were coming up with these use cases. I had a project where we started with a customer. There were like five people from the customer side. And within about 18 months, none of these people were around the company anymore. So they are basically starting with new people. And if you are the only person who's still there, who's seen it from start to end, you should be also able to somehow translate the ideas, translate the message and ultimately stick to the goals that were there in the first place. And again, part of what I've been doing with one of the customers that has a lot of use cases, a lot of ideas, a lot of things have been built over the years. What I'm trying to do is also identify maybe those use cases that are heavily used and compared to that are maybe underutilized. For the sole reason of, you know, understanding why is this so useful and this isn't and is there maybe what is the reason behind that this use case is not used in the first place? Is it lack of knowledge? Is it lack of understanding? Maybe the people don't even know that this use case exists or maybe what you can do. And that's also part of my job is coming up with ideas of how to improve the use case. Typical example would be some operational, again, the work, Patrick, please operationalize. Thank you. I think I'll just record it and play it next time whenever I need to say that. Yeah, when you have this use case and it's been built five years ago, the report does no longer look the way that you would expect a new, you know, shiny tool to look like. So you are not even incentivized into using it because you hate it the way it looks. Plus you can now bring new features that help you to use it in a bit better way. A typical example would be a report where you are creating a work backlog of items, which at least with cell and this wasn't possible just to be respect. But now you can create some very very cool things in prioritizing different items and then taking actions on them. And I think this is this is great. And just by going through what has been done within a customer's environment and then maybe coming up with ideas of where we could get some quick wins can be a big game changer for initiatives that been let's say idle for long periods of time. Oh, this is a really good point actually because I mean technology changes, right? And all the new features that come about with the introduction of something new like simulation or automation and all these things that you can tack on top or work in conjunction with your process mining initiative, you know, use cases or things that you try to analyze beforehand might not have been possible. So it was ditched for just left standing like you said collecting dust somewhere in the corner of your workspace. But now with some new found technology or some new capabilities of the software that you're using might now be a perfect candidate to actually revisit these things, right? But it takes someone to actually go ahead and know the software and also know what's been implemented, right? And you can't do that if you are working full time on developing stuff because you are lacking this luxury. I would call it really a luxury. It is a luxury to be able to stand aside and to just assess things from the from from the far. And to step in and see you did great job, but let's take a look at these small areas that you've done two years ago because it's interesting. Let's let's revisit this. While when you are a data scientist, you finish it and you move over to a next project, probably even with a next customer, even if you're internal, you will probably just jump into a new process and start building a whole new process, and your idea or your head is no longer on the topic that you've been working on before. And it's not even your fault. It's just the fact. And I would love to say that every single one of our customers is using 100% of capacity and capabilities of the tool and all the reports that we've built. But let's not lie to like ourselves here. It's just no there's no chance even if everything would be amazing. It's just it's just not humanly possible. And that's why you you you shit or I shift myself in these discussions with a customer and we look at it with, you know, objectively, we can track the data on what is being used and how is being used these days. And we can think about how we can maybe bring some of the use cases back to life if they are even relevant or important and what to do with them in the first place. And being or doing this for a few years now, you can also insert the experience here, which is massive at the which can be really really interesting for the customer. Yeah. And I mean, this is a small point and definitely not the not the main point of customer success, but you know, revisiting a lot of stuff gives you great opportunity to start cleaning some stuff out, right? Old things that, you know, nobody needs to look at or things that are data, deprecating all these things gives you a great opportunity to do some basic or just you saying, Hey, we should probably clean this up clean this up clean up, right? Yeah. I was doing this exercise with one of our older customers where they had a accounts payable process in place. And I don't even know how frequently it's being used. My idea is that not very often. And I was like, okay, let's take a look at with the experience and knowledge I have now, especially implementing account payable processes before a few times. Let's take a look at what I can find. And I went into the processes and into the reports for like an hour. And I basically found at least four very, very problematic areas that I want to take with the customer. And it was all the way from payment terms, unutilized cash discounts all the way to duplicate check, you know, duplicate invoices. So that was just the hour of work that basically comes as a product of doing this myself for five years. So and again, I don't even, I, there's still so much room to grow for me in these areas that I wonder what the hopefully I'll be able to do in few years from now. And I mean, that's like, that's amazing, right? Being able to find so many points of interest in an hour is a lesson or is like, I guess, a tool that you have that you also share with our customers, like, right? So this is how I found what I found. So you should do the same because if you use these methodologies and, you know, basic type of figuring out what the inefficiencies are, then you can do this not just in this use case, but every other thing that you have, right? Of course. And I really do enjoy doing this because, you know, part of the job of me being a customer success manager is also doing the podcast and extracting all of this knowledge from the people that are smarter than me, so that I can then go and say, Oh, look at for my idea here is except except it's not really my idea. And it sure helps. And again, part of my job here is also to produce this podcast in the first place because it's enriching me and you as well. For sure. Yeah, I mean, and that's one of the wonderful things, you know, and we get to share these lessons and these things that we have learned over the years in doing these process mining initiatives, you know, what to look out for, what you need to do and share a lot of this a lot of it's not. Yeah. Yeah, so to summarize, Patrick, this customer success role, first of all, I really, really love doing it. I mean, generally, this is like right up your wheelhouse. You like to talk and you like to focus on, on, you know, making the customer successful. Like, ever since this, like, you started this, like, you just kept going on and on. I'm like, yeah, I could get it. My god. So the talking is definitely. Yeah. It's a lot of learning though. I've done mistakes. I takes time to figure things out, especially, you know, imagine I was working as a data scientist for four and a half years. And suddenly, as a data scientist, you always have a backlog of items you need to do. And those were pretty well defined. You had like, implement this change that, you know, extract data from here. Well, suddenly you have quite free reigns. And nobody will tell you tackle this customer at this point. So you have to be quite creative, which is not always so easy because you basically like this holding a hand that tells you what to do. Which, for me, is a definitely a challenge that I enjoy, but it's challenge, regardless. Yeah. I mean, it's an unknown territory for you, right? And I mean, for us as a company as well. Yeah. So it's, but it's good, you know, the benefits of having somebody like you in organization that can take care of our customers and help them achieve their success, right? That their customer success. You know, it's crucial. It's absolutely vital, I think. Yeah. So I've been trying to do my best here. I think we'll assess it as a company in a few months. I hope I have a job by then. Maybe we'll go back and say, yeah, yeah. What we, what our plan was. What were we thinking? We're doing something different now. What were we thinking, Patrick? Yeah. Anyway, it was all your idea anyway. So yeah, yeah. So I'm really now figuring out what the, you know, customers I'm focusing on. I'm developing a system that we can track on how well we are doing as a company for a customer and multiple metrics. I mentioned one that was the net promoter score, but obviously there's more, more perspectives from which you can measure it. And ultimately, as I said, you, you succeed in a way that the customer is happy with what you are doing as a company, but at the same time that they are capitalizing on whatever you have built for them, which doesn't come on its own and you have to be actively promoting it and pushing it so that you achieve it. Yeah. I mean, it's the, in order to use the tool for finding efficiencies, you must use the tool efficiently, right? So that's something. Yeah. So Patrick, do you know now what I do? Yeah, I think I'll listen back to this episode when I'm trying to explain it. But yeah, I have much better idea now. And I definitely agree, I mean, whenever we talked about it and stuff, it makes complete sense to me and why we would have a role like this for you. So yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, so am I. And I hope that's so our, my customers, when I started to come there and, oh, yeah, I'm no longer developing, but let's talk about strategy. No, you code. Go back to code. Yeah, you code and just like poke me with over there. Exactly. But it sure is fun. And I hope that a year from now, when we maybe do a recap episode on how things have been going, I would be able to say, I'm proud because I achieved this and that. Obviously, there's always some NDA. So I have always a way of what I can share and how much I can say. But hopefully I'll be proud. And we as a company will be proud a year from now in whatever we have invested in this role. Yeah, I'm already proud of you, Jacob. Oh, thank you, Patrick. That's so nice. Yeah. So I guess that's it for today. Patrick, you have anything else that you would be interested in asking me? Um, let's know. Yeah, nothing, nothing constructive that comes to mind at the moment. Oh, no, I'm constructive. So maybe guys, dear listeners, if you, if you, if you people have some question about the customer success manager role and what Jacob does all day, please message us and we'll get those answered for you. Okay. I'm sure Jacob would love nothing else. Yeah, just take to Patrick, though, because he will be happy to answer that. And at least he will learn much better in what I'm actually doing. For sure. Yeah, but please reach out. If you have any questions or thoughts, maybe you are a customer success manager somewhere and would like to give your take about what it is that customer success man, customer success is for you or in how you deal with these these issues and things that we talked about today. Reach out, please. We'd love to talk to you. And since you sort of took over this last part, what didn't you just finish it and do the ultra for me today, Patrick? Yes, I totally remember how to do this. So deal listeners, you can find us on LinkedIn. You can find us on every single place where there are podcasts. Don't forget to rate us if you like what you're listening to and feel free to reach out under mining your business podcast at gmail.com or reach us on LinkedIn, either the podcast page or Jacob or me directly. And I hope to see you in the next episode. How was that? I think that was pretty good. I don't think I have to do it over again. Do I? No, you're good. All right, then thank you for listening and bye. Bye bye.