Looking Back, Looking Forward

[Music] Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. You are listening to the dad still standing podcast. My name is Matt Deersley and I am here with my brother from another LPZ. LPZ. LPZ. LPZ. I run it because I'm so not ganked. So this episode is going out towards the end at the end, maybe slightly after Boba lost a win this week. How has it been for you, Matthew? I haven't really paid a sentence into it, so be honest. Really? Yeah, I haven't really paid a sentence into it. I know it was happening, but I'm really got involved in it, I haven't really done much on it, been quiet around it. And I think it's because lots of done on the last episode, moved house, not as smooth as it should have been moving house, car broke down. So everyone, if it's been trying to get everything like that sorted and do jobs that they're doing on the house, getting a car on the road that actually runs all like the shit adulting stuff. Do you know what I mean? And then I think I've kind of put the really, really shit adulting stuff like being part of the baby loss club to the back because I can't deal with that. I mean, it's kind of boxed it out, I've put it on the shelf and I think it's a little bit more like a small week has kind of got in with that. But we've all spoken about how actually we've we've blew or you you kind of just have to you have to kind of use it for what you can get out of it positively or negatively. And if it's not for you in that moment trying to steer that makes them feel. If you're not in the right headspace for it, we've just got too much of a stuff on. Give it a pass. Yeah, exactly. And do you know what? That's what I've done. Because I don't think I don't think it had I gone into like baby loss awareness mode like, well, I've got I've got to do something every day. I've got a like, you know, the pretty you put yourself under pressure. I think I'd be I don't think I'd be able to cope with it this year. The only from the amount of adulting on doing outside of the baby loss arena. Yeah, it's interesting. And that is actually the topic of that is actually the topic of today's episode topic of today's episode this is about looking back and looking forward. So how you feel over time and how your feelings and perspectives and journey changes from, you know, kind of the moment you've lost until six months, a year, six years, 20 years down the line. So that's what we're kind of looking to focus on today. But I think for me, I've also really not engaged with baby loss awareness week at all, which is unusual because you'd think, you know, this is our kind of space. But I don't know why this year I just I just haven't felt the energy. I haven't felt the energy to really engage with it and to really do something special of kind of just not even not even try to avoid it. It's weird. You mentioned there, but like you haven't had the energy to deal with it. It's exactly where I'm at. Like because I know I feel I don't know about you, I feel pressure as light obviously the number one podcast for beds that lost babies. I feel I feel pressure to put something out there for blood, but also I feel pressure like to take my own advice and that if I can't deal with it, don't deal with it. I mean, that's the most important thing. Yeah, I tell you, I don't feel the pressure to put stuff out there. I maybe I do. But I just I don't know, I just I just couldn't engage a bit. I couldn't engage with it at all. And yeah, it's a weird one. And I don't know whether that is in part due to kind of what this episode is about, which is which is all kind of around grief changes over time, you know, and you'll be looking back on the early days after loss and forward to how life feels now. And how do you feel about that as a topic like what grief changing over time? Yeah, like what is it me? Yeah, we see it's an interesting one because I've got lots of like grief throughout my adult, like, you know, from being from 15. I dealt with grief. Like lost my lost my dad at 15, lost my mom, you know, 20. And then I kind of feel like I've been on the Greek journey ever since really. So I mean, is that this that question isn't it if does grief get easier over time? I don't think it gets any easier. I think it probably hits you less and less often, but I think when it does hit you, I think it hits you a bit harder. So when you're writing it, you've got that constant grief, chipping away, chipping away, chipping away at you. And then you come up with your coping mechanisms, you come up with the ways that you deal with it and the ways that you get, you know, you find you know normal when you learn to adapt to your normal. And then every now and again, it's like, Thor's hammer just comes and fucking smash his right in the face. And then like it takes me, it takes me a concerted efforts to then get myself back on track. Rather than just trying to fight my way through it all the time, does that mean you want about like new grief, smashing the face or no, just just like just grief, just just the memories of what you've been trying to find. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just comes into the face. And again, like it goes back to I used to read a book and it's, I think it's the boy, the horse and the fox. Yeah, water, water book, what an animation. Yeah, right. And there's a, there's a quote from that I love, right? And it is, and it's, I can't, I can't see away forwards. I love that, right? And it's, and it's, can you see your next step? Yeah, then just take that. And that's what I just like, if I can see my next step, just take that. And you've got, like I think you've got a, and again, I'm going to, I'm going to drop a quote here and I heard this on heartbreak for the other day, right? And it was Jamie takes them, right? And he said he was talking about something and he said, you can't control the outcome, but you can control the process. Right. And sometimes you've got to just trust the process and just trust taking that next step. So you can't control the final goal, but you've got to trust the process and that's within your control. So control it, you can control and just leave what you can't control. And that's what I'm trying to do at the minute. And I think again, I think that comes back to why I haven't really got involved in baby loss awareness week because I don't feel like I can take that on at the minute. And again, there's nothing wrong with that. If you're a listener and you've gone, I can't, it will baby loss awareness week. Just because everyone says you've got, you've got to be aware of babies that are dead this week. You've got to be aware of baby loss this week. No, you haven't, you're aware of it all the time. If you're going for a baby loss, you're aware of it all the time. We don't just need one week. So I think that's, yeah, that's where I'm at, I think. So, but again, it's, you know, I think grief changes over time, doesn't it? Because you learn the effective coping mechanisms, you learn how to deal with it, you learn what triggers you recognize what triggers you and you probably know how to deal with those triggers. From me anyway, I don't know, might be different from you. Probably is because you usually just bring me a little, not out of choice, just that, just that over I'm at. I do, I do feel grief changes over time. Interestingly, someone really close to me is, is, is someone really close to me is just at a loss. And they're kind of asking for some words of wisdom. I'm not sure wisdom is what we've got. I kind of say, like, you know, when I think about hope and baby loss, kind of the thing that always comes to mind for me is, is time. I know it's shit, but like it's time, time is probably the only thing that is really consistent. Hila. And that's why I think when, it's one of the reasons I was reflecting on this as a topic was because I just think you have to, unless you have the time to breathe and grieve. And there is no kind of reprieve like you've got to get you've got to have that time. And you can do all the mindfulness work, you can do all the kind of support, you can be in the right groups, you can have the right friends. Like you imagine if like, you know, all the things you've talked about over these like 50 episodes, you've got to think even if you had every single one of them next to you, right. You know, you had the best clinicians and you had the best friends and you had the best work, return into work experience. And you had the best support networks afterwards and you had followed all the right social media channels and you know, you've done everything right. You still wouldn't feel good. No, of course you wouldn't. And I think, but that's what I'm saying. I think the last thing that is consistent is time. Yeah, 100%. But grief is subjective, isn't it? Grief is your then this is what we said. We said they would said this. I'll probably said this thousands of times grief is your own. Like having all the support networks and all the best. collisions and the best therapists and the best friends and family is still your grief. You're still holding it, aren't you? They can take the weight of it every now and again, but when you're not with them, you're still holding it. Right. And again, I think what you say is like over time, you get a little bit stronger, you get a little bit more resilient, you get a little bit more able to hold it. And then you rely on them less and less and less. You don't care less. No, he's like, no, that's really what you don't care less. You're just more effective at dealing with it. It's like, it's not with anything, right? The more you do it, the better you get. If you're going down to gym and you're weight training, right? If I'm going to go in the gym, I'm not going to go and lift 300 pounds, bench press 300 pounds straight away. I'm going to start by bench pressing 20 pounds. I'm going to get good at that. And then I'm going to go up and up and up and up and up and eventually I'm going to be able to do what I sit out to do or what I need you to do. Easy. And it's going to be more manageable, isn't it? We're going to be able to cope with it. Well, I mean, that's a really good analogy because, you know, there is something about how I really do actually. As I was saying it, up for it was really shit. That is a shit. If I was sure, I'd have to say gun you for it, you know, but no, there is something about training through this. So year on year is one extra year's worth of training under the belt to try and help you get through the next year and the next year. Maybe that's it for me. Maybe I've done so many baby loss awareness weeks after polymer. We're talking seven six seven six or seven. I'm trying to think depending on when my first would have been maybe about the point now. I'm like, I don't need to do it because, well, I needed it in years one to six. I said, I don't need it now. Come right. I don't need baby loss awareness. Maybe that's in part why I haven't really engaged with it. I think you're right, Matt, if you keep building your training on what it's like to deal with people or ourselves, how it feels telling people for the first time, how many kids you say you've got when someone asks you, how many children you've got. Funny, I said, I was in a conversation with somebody every day. I think when I initially, because it was I'm gone off in the tangent here, I was in a conversation with someone I was getting to know it was like a consultant at work and I wasn't sure how much interaction I'd have and they sort of casually said, oh, how many kids you've got and I just set four. So I thought I ain't got the energy to go into it because then they're following conversation without me. And then I'd been working with them for a few weeks and then they'd kind of asked me again in a roundabout way or somebody also'd asked me and they were next to me and I said, I've got five kids and they let me go and I thought if we said you had four and I was like, yeah, I'll come back to you on it. I'll tell you when we're going to have it and then I end up pulling them at some point. We had a long conversation about it. And I think that would have thrown me before, but I think because I've had that so many conversations at that point, I knew when I needed to say four and not have to explain it and I knew when I needed to say five and give an explainer. And I think you're right. I think you only build up that resilience over time. Yeah, 100%. And I don't know about you, but that question, that's a curve, isn't it? That question is a curve. Well, how many kids do you have? It stops me every time. And I remember, yeah, yeah, and I remember I always used to be like, I've got to say five. I've got to say, well, now I've got to say seven. I've got to say seven. I've got to do it, right? But actually, I don't have to do anything. There's no shame in the fact that I go, oh, you've got two. Like, I've got, I've got friendly and nearly like because sometimes like, if I'm just talking to someone, I don't really know. And I'm sort of like general, general chick chat. I don't want to go, oh, you've got seven. This is what I've been through. Like, I don't want to do that. I'm completely I'm completely with you. I'm completely with you. Right. It's one of them, isn't it? It's not, but there's no, I think it's important to realise like, just because I don't say talk about my babies that have died, but doesn't mean that I'm ashamed of it. It's just that actually in that moment, I don't want to be putting myself in that situation. Like, I've got, I've got two kids because actually, if I explain to you how many kids I've got, it would probably blow your little brain. It's my kind of essence of it, but it's again, and I think you only learn to do this over time. Like, it's not practice, but it's like, you repeat it. You do it so many times. You learn how to do it comfortably. Like, we mean you. Like, if someone says to us, tell us your story, we can just really off because we've done it so many times. I don't think it still doesn't make it easier. We just go into autopilot mode and we just go into, it just comes out, we just flick the switch and we just go into almost like auto-cute, isn't it? We're thinking about that then. Is this what you thought your grief would look like six, seven years in? I'm saying six, seven years in because that's mine, but for you, when you think back to your first, I don't know really, because in that moment where when it happened, I wonder if there was a moment where you were trying to picture a time where you would feel differently or what this would feel like in five years time. I talked to my, I mean, therapy because of my course and also because it'll probably fucking need it. But we talk about one of the challenges that I've got is I'm always planning. I'm always planning. I'm always planning well ahead. So I always, always try to try to head ahead ahead of right. Sometimes I'll come to her with an issue and she'd be like, "Yeah, but the problem is you're not living in that moment. You're immediately thinking ahead." So I've got an example being, I've come to her to say, "Look, I've got this really good opportunity in front of me. It's a shame I've got it now and not in 12 months' time where it would be a better opportunity and a better scenario." And she's saying, and she's like, "Well, you know what that is, because you're thinking too far ahead." She's like, "You're already planning for what things would be like that." And he said, "If thinking about what is a lot of now, actually, this opportunity is better for you now in this position rather than what it would be like in 12 months." And so, sorry, there is enough said that is because I think when I was going through losing Paloma, some of my thoughts were, "What will this feel like in 12 months? What will this feel like in two years? Will I feel this way in five years? Like trying to plan through with the family? How long have I got before this grief overwhelms us?" Yeah, no, do you know what? I think as the listeners and probably work out me and you are very, very different. And I'm more of a fly by the seat and my pants kind of. So when I was in that moment, I wasn't thinking "Oh, what's this going to look like in 12 months? What's this going to look like in 18 months?" I was more just thinking, "Just go get through it." But also, in the back of my mind, knowing that I could get through it. But it was, I was probably thinking, "How am I going to get everyone else through it?" As opposed to, "What is my grief going to look like in 12 months time, two years time, three years time, four years time?" It was more, "How am I going to get my family through this?" Yeah, well, I suppose in thinking about that part of mine probably was that, but what does mine look like? What does Lily's look like? What does Torres look like? What does Maddie's look like? What does that next level look like? And I don't know. I wonder if this is what I thought it would look like almost seven years old. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm kind of content with what I've been, not content. Not content is in happy, but I've come to sort of feel like I've come to terms with what I've been through. It's changed me, but I'm all right. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I ever consciously sat until what's my grief going to look like in in a set amount of time. I don't think I've ever really tried to strategise it. Just purely because I'm not that kind of, I'm not intelligent enough to do that. I'm not saying I sat down with like fucking flip chart and started like mapping it out, like a big old ganchard, like, you know, we're going to be all right then. A few will be done by, few will be done by, yeah, 2020. Yeah, I'll give myself two months to do with it. Yeah, those, those impress work. Yeah, we're all right. Yeah, we're we're in in February. Yeah, great. One month. No, I didn't look at that. I'm just saying I'm trying to, I'm trying to think if, if I felt, if I thought I would feel like this after six, six, seven years. But how, okay, so, but how do you feel after six or seven years? I do feel different. I mean, obviously do care. Obviously, I feel different. But I think this is kind of going to what I was saying in the, if it was the last episode, the episode for last, but like I do think, I do think less about it. It like losing Paloma doesn't affect me on a daily basis as much as it did a year ago, two years ago, five years ago, seven years ago, like it, it doesn't affect me in the same way. Like I'm, I'm devastated now. Think about it. But again, it's what it's saying to you. I don't know if I think about it every day. And I tell you what it doesn't do. It doesn't hurt every day. And I think I thought, I think I thought seven years ago, I would feel that physical, gut wrenching, heart breaking pain. I think I thought I would feel that every day. And I think I can say it. And I don't know whether this offers hope to people. And I don't know whether this makes people sit and thinking, "Go what a fucking asshole." I don't feel that pain every day. I understand what's happened. And it's really fucking sad and horrific. And I know how I felt in those motions. And I don't know whether this is me. I've compartmentalized this so much and buried this so deep. I don't like when it happens, I think I don't think I understood what the word heart, but when your heart breaks, I don't think I understood what I meant until I'm died. And it physically felt like my heart had broken. My heart doesn't feel broken. And I'm not feeling on a daily basis. Do you think the fact that you've had children after your loss has helped with that? Because I still, I'm probably opposite to what you are. If I think about it, it's painful for me to think about one of our suits. I'll don't get me wrong. And I still think about it every day. I'll still think about it every day. If I sat down and pulled out the photos or we've got stuff on the other end of the room, we've got stuff around the room. If I stare at it for any limiter time, I can bring those emotions to the surface and get upset about it. But they're not on the surface. Okay, that's interesting. And I think that's why I don't know. I think that's why I find it a little bit easier to deal with things at the moment. Because they're not there. They're not on the surface. And I'm not feeling that pain every single day. And do you think the fact that you've actually not just met that was in question? Yeah, I would be surprised if that hadn't had an healing effect. It hasn't healed me, but it has repaired some of the damage that my little heart has experienced. Okay, and I don't know. Like I wonder if over time if we hadn't had kids, would I still feel that way? And I think what you're trying to, because you haven't gone on to have a child after your loss is. So I suppose the question about to you is, do you think that one of the reasons it's still so present is because of that? Yeah, I think it'd be naive to think it's not really like, you know. And I think I think I think I see how devastating it is for. Like Lauren at times, the fact that she's not gone on to have, have a, have another child. I think that's what I think that's what I find tough at times is how. Devastating it has been for her and it still is for her. But I think that's because she's probably processed things differently to me. Because I've got a lot of, and I've said this before, like the podcast, this podcast is, you talk about your therapy, this podcast is not therapy really. Well, it is really, I don't, I don't really talk to talk a lot about stuff other than on the podcast. I'm pretty sort of, yeah, I'll get the hermit actually turns into a bit of a hermit. Has anything softened over time? And what are the bits that fill the most raw still for you? Oh, I don't know. It's not like Daniel Morales, not really, really raw, but I can, like I can still, I still have, has anything softened over time? No, I don't think it has. I just think I've become, I've become more resilient to what I've been doing. And again, like I, I feel, I, do not, I don't feel it. It's going to sound weird, but I'm going to say it anyway because I feel like I should. I feel that it's all part of my, I'm so part of my journey. He loves the journey. It's all part of what I, that is, it's all part of, like, you know, I, I sort of, I'm coming around to the idea of things being kind of predetermined for you. I feel like it's all part of my path. I feel like had I not been through what I've been through, this probably podcast wouldn't exist to be on this video. I wouldn't have met you. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don't know. Is there a way to get in the comments? Yeah. Send us a voice note. No, I think, I think ultimately without this, without me having gone through losing, it leads to in Harry and Daisy, there'd be no podcast. There'd be no death, still standing podcast. That would not have come about. So I kind of feel like what I've been through is, is kind of created this legacy for, you know, my baby's in, you know, you know, Paloma, that this podcast is out there and this podcast is trying to, you know, make it a little bit easier for everyone else that's going through it. I find it really interesting when we talk about kind of time. And there was a guy who, one of the first guys I first met, I won't say his name, he was like, he was a befriender, kind of after loss, it was his sons. Right. He was old, he was old, I must have been in his 50s, but like mid late 50s, I can't, I don't listen to this younger man out there, that'd be well awkward. Great looking guy though, free sage, whatever age that was. Yeah. Strapping. And when he had his loss, it must have been like 30 years ago. He didn't, he was saying, well, I went to a ball and he was giving the speech. And he was saying in it that it didn't properly affect him at the time. And it wasn't until later on in life, like 30 years later, that he hit him. And I think it is interesting, come on, when we talk about like how grief changes over time, that actually, but you're in a space where you're saying actually it's still very, I'm not saying it's not present about me just for context, right? But you're saying it's still very present, it's still raw and you know, you're still living it on a day to day. And I'm kind of saying, I feel in some ways I've managed to internally manage it that is impact to me less now than it was seven years ago. And for him, it obviously didn't really have a big impact at the beginning or didn't have as much impact. But it took a couple of decades or more to suddenly feel that pain and feel, like for those emotions to be stirred up. And I just find that really interesting. And I think when we talk about how grief changes over time and how people change over time, it doesn't have to be a traditional route, it doesn't have to follow a traditional journey. It can be completely different. Well, it's completely subjective. It's not everyone's and again, you're going to say that word, that journey word, everyone's grief journey is their own. Everyone's grief journey is completely different. I'm online, you're on yours. You know, Dari reason hers, Lauren's on hers. Everyone's on a completely different grief journey. And although they all probably are on the same trajectory, they all go in at different speeds with different milestones and different triggers. It's interesting, the time question. I don't think there's a definitive yes or no answer. I think it's completely subjective as to who you talk to, as to whether I feel like time has healed them or drawn them. Because some people just get stuck in it, don't they? Some people just completely stuck in it. And we've probably seen it with some of the, you know, I'm not going to mention names, but some of the guys that we've sort of been associated with it through the football team, there's guys that are stuck in it. Oh, yeah. They just can't get themselves out of it. And no matter what you're doing, no matter how you're trying, they just, I think to a certain extent, they don't want to be pulled out of it. And they're just, their, their resting place is they're in, they're stuck in the trenches of grief. And that's just how they're, how they cope with it. They just, they just have to be in that they can't possibly think of, I need to get out. I need to push on. They just kind of being existing in that moment. Yeah, well that interesting amount that brings me on to kind of the next era. I want to move into it like, we're talking about looking back. But what about looking forward them? What, what, what, what does the future feel like, like hopes kind of where it's like, like looking in you, like looking at you, like looking at your kind of position. And then we could look online. What, what do you want? Yeah. What do you want? Like the next five years. Who would you want the next five years of your grief to look like? I don't know. I'm not strategising it. Why? The next, didn't it? Because strategising, I don't get the strategy. I'm just strategising with them. Maybe we can do this. No, I don't. I don't know. No, I don't. Everyone's been writing in. Um, I don't, I don't, I don't let you see this one. All I can show you. All I can tell you is that, like God willing, I'll get through it. That's all I can say, like, I'll, you know, I will, I will get through it, I will, you know, touchwood. In five years time, I'll still be here, I'll still be going through it. I'll probably be in a different place. Probably might have fun, probably as fucking boxes, be under. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'll still be surrounded by boxes. Yeah, I'm, you know, who knows where I'll be? It's part of the excitement, right? I don't know. I don't know if I strategise it and I go in five years time, I want to be here. I don't know. Like, can you, can you, can you, can you, or I, he's, he's, he's not there. I'm just getting, not, not, not, he's, he's a question. Listen, I don't get me wrong. I am like, come on. Crisis, comms, crisis, man is, he's, he's my bag right. I love that shit. I come alive when that's, that, when that stuff happens at work. So there's my question to you. Yeah. No, it's not a question. And so my point isn't, I don't, my point isn't, I don't want to live in the moment. Like living in the moment is, you have to live every moment in order to get through. I suppose my question is, do, do you not think about where you want to be in a year's time with how you are right now? Like, plan it out. In what do you mean? What, with my grief or just, with your grief, I suppose, yeah, I don't even know if I do this myself. I just, it's just like I spent in every aspect of life. So I think people talk about the, like the power of planning and strategising and working their way through it, right? Yeah. And then if you, when we talk about looking ahead, if we're saying grief is something that we need to try and manage and we need to try and work through, could you take the same approach to managing grief that you would manage ever, ever at any other aspect of your life? I could, but the problem with grief is it's unpredictable, isn't it? Yeah. And there's certain aspects, there's certain aspects of it like I said earlier, there's certain aspects of grief that you are certain aspects that I can't control. So I just have to kind of trust the process and go with it. And you know, this stuff I can control in my life. So I can control like my day job, I can control how much effort I put into my day job. How much? But how much effort I put into, you know, if I want to get promoted, if I want to do this, I want to do that. That's within my control. Yeah. But there's some stuff that's not within my control. And that is what's my grave going to look like in years time. I'm trying, I'm actually talking, I'm obviously listening. You better listen to listeners. Might be some fucking change in it, but I'm trying to think if you said to me seven years ago, would I want to feel how I feel right now? You know, I'm trying to think if I take it, I would. I don't know if I would. I don't know if I would part, I don't know if part of me when you, when you, when you talk about kind of the space you're at, it doesn't make me jealous. Jealousy is the wrong word. It jealous is really the wrong word. But there is something about me going, why don't I feel that way? But we're different, right? So we've had different. No, no, no. So I've had to, I'm on about the time. I'm on about the time. No. But my, but I'm, but some people are more comfortable in certain. So I'm like, like I said, like I said at the beginning, like I dealt with grief from like adolescence, like my dad or my mom. So I'm a lot more accustomed. You could say to two griefs. I'm a lot more comfortable sitting in my grief and sitting and realizing that actually grief's painful. But it doesn't have to be all consuming pain. It can just be painful. I can just, I can do not mean I don't have to, I don't go, I need to feel okay. Like it's okay that I'm not okay. It's okay not to be okay. You know, that I'll cliche, but it's okay to be sitting in my grief a little bit. I think I've probably actively worked to try and remove that pain. But I don't know if that is fine. I don't know if it's fine. I'm not comfortable to sit with that little bit of pain. I don't sit with that little bit of pain. Who am I to say Liam? This is, you know what, and this comes back to what we say. Who am I to turn around and go, this is how you should be breathing? If I was to do that, I'd expect you to turn around and go, Matt, fuck off. And exactly the same. If you turn around and go, I don't think you should be, you should be sitting in your pain. I'd turn around and say, Liam, fucking bite me. I hear you. I suppose what I'm saying is where you are, how you're feeling right now, where you are right now is exactly how you're supposed to be, exactly where you're supposed to be on your journey or have our overengineered. Yes. Have our overengineered to get myself into a space where I'm not, I don't think about everything. Is that right? Okay. But in doing that, have you had to do that to cope with what you're going for? No. Oh, yes. I have to do that to cope with it. But right, so therefore that's okay. That doesn't feel okay. Like reflecting on it now. But it is okay. It is okay because you've had to do that to get through where you're supposed to be getting through and to be where you're supposed to be. You're doing what you're supposed to be doing. I am not, I have no right to tell you, you have to be doing it like this. You're doing it exactly how you feel you should be doing it, which is exactly, yeah. And like perfectly fine. I just say, I don't think, and I'm doing my thing. Yeah. I think you have, it's just for absolute clarity. I don't think you can tell me this is how you should feel. I'm just reflecting on what I've heard and what other people will like to be hearing a game for you and thinking. Do you know what I'll reiterate this to our listeners? There is no right and wrong way for you to grieve. How you are feeling right now, listening to my dulcic, working at Amon Tone's on this podcast, right? Is exactly how you are supposed to be feeling in this moment. To know, mate. Yeah, the problem comes, the problem comes when you are sitting and you are wallowing and you're sitting in the moment and it is dragging you down and you cannot get out of it. That is when you need to take some active steps and be proactive around it. But how you are feeling right now is exactly how you are supposed to be feeling in this moment. Okay. So in a year's time, you will probably feel totally different. In a year's time, you will think, "Funk in there, that conversation I had with Matt, that chain of things a little bit." It's part of the process. We're meant to be having this conversation. Maybe that's what we do next, but all then. You've got to trust the process. Trust the process because you can't control the outcome, but you can control the process. You can draw what you're doing and what you're doing is you are active. What you're doing is actively grieving because you're trying to process, "You know that you're not going to be sitting, you're not going to be comfortable sitting in with that pain that I said, "I feel you're not going to be able to cope with that." So you're actively dealing with it. I know that I can cope with a little bit of pain. So that's what I'm doing. There's no right or wrong way to do it. I mean, that's what I've been telling people for the 70s. Right. So yeah. Right. I'm right. We're all different. Greaves is entirely subjective. You are exactly where you're supposed to be and I'm talking to you, LPs, and I'm talking to every single one of our listeners. You are exactly where you are supposed to be on your Greaves journey at this moment in time. Don't try and force it. Just go with the flow. That's it. I'm at my drop. Listeners. Getting touched with us. If you want to. If you want to. If you can be bothered. If you want to. Is Dad still standing podcasting? If you've got his dad still standing podcast at gmail.com and we're across all the socials at Dad still standing. I hope we hope Blas is going all right for them, don't we? We hope they are in whatever space the maths can be. However you feel right now, is exactly how you should feel. So. Oh, 100% is that. Is that is dearly endorsed. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for the fair if you make. Appreciate that. Yeah, I'll send you an invoice. No, listen, it's important. We've got to deal with this. We've got to deal with this shit because otherwise no one else will. But like Liam says, get touched with us across the socials at Dad still standing Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, B, which have still not been on any of it. Just getting in contact with us. Drop us a little message. If you want to drop us a little message and have a little rant and just tell us what's going on, please do it. If you've got any ideas on what you want us to talk about, let us know. If you disagree with something we've said or you disagree with something I've said, let us know because we're all about the dialogue, we're all about the conversation. Give us a review, give us a like, give us a follow, share it far and wide because if you don't share it, you won't reach any of it. That's me, I'm out, my drop, I've dropped my wisdom, see you later. Ciao.