Logo Design Rules From Legends — 18 Irrefutable Laws That Turn Good Graphic Designers Into Great

(upbeat music) You're listening to the Ingrid Designer podcast, where we help frustrated graphic designers crush the industry bowl and share what it takes to charge what's your worth and build bad-ass rewarding careers. Cheers, Salud! Okay, here we go, we are trying. We're gonna do a rea-- So, okay, so we don't have to be bourbon. I'm Miss Bourbon. And I haven't found any new scotch that won't cost me a liver or a kidney that I want to try. That's freaking expensive. It is, it's not cheap. So we're back to trying to experiment with some Canadian whiskey. Okay, okay. I'm gonna give it a shot. Yeah, this is, so this is a special batch of JPYsers. JPYsers general like a pretty standard whiskey. Even you can almost say entry level, like water. But this is not, this is, this is, oh this is a 15 year old. They also have an 18 year old that's actually quite expensive. Oh, I don't understand why those three years cost like 20 bucks extra every year. Storage, but yeah. Let's give this a shot, 'cause I read good things and I'm pretty sure. All right, I don't know, let's get a shot. Okay. Mm-mm-mm. Oh, that's actually jealous. Really jealous. Whoa, I'm just gonna give myself a little more here. Oh my God. That was good. That smells way worse than it tastes. Yeah. When I first cracked that, I was just like holy shit. That's amazing. I can see the paint coming off the walls, but that tastes really good. Yeah, you know, no burn. It was a little bit of a surprise, wasn't it? Wow. Yeah, guys, JPYsers 15 year old in the square ball. The bottle's beautiful. I will be goddamn. That's Canadian whiskey. It's Canadian whiskey, dude. And it's, it's, it's, price point's good. Like Canadian whiskey, it's like 60 bucks. It's delicious, wow. Oh, mm-hmm. That's pretty good. Yes. I, you know what? That it's not quite that bourbon, bourbon flavor, like that's the lemons we had. Yeah, yeah. It's delicious. Yeah. None the less. Yeah. It's pretty good. Well, you should work the extra box. That's for sure. So what's that 18 like? Oh shit, we should try. Okay. I need, it's probably crazy expensive. Yeah, well, that's not to 20 bucks a year. So, yeah, there you go. All right, there you go. So we came back from where? Oh, creative sale. And it was such a great time. It was. And, you know, I'm not going to brag, but we kind of got to hang out with like Alan Peters in James Bernard and Scott Fuller, like the whole time. It's like, you know, you get little groups and just people kind of cling together and hang. Of course, there was other people that joined and left, but it seemed like the five of us were kind of like, you know, okay, let's meet downstairs for a drink before we go. Let's do this. It always kind of started with the beer. Yeah. Wow. Since we, since we landed in Atlanta, we were, we were in James Bernard's company. Oh my God. Because we actually caught him at the airport. That's right. How funny. And I think he shocked the guy. And so it's really tall. Yeah, really tall. Well, we're very short, man. And very handsome. Yes, yes, James is handsome. But that was the first. I hope he's listening. James. But no, I mean, it was really cool. And then, and then the cool thing is, and it's like so for us, it was just they're, they're just really cool down to earth people. Yes. Yes. They were like rock stars. It's cool because everybody would, you know, like they would swarm them and ask questions and talk about stuff. And obviously it was really logo related. But like they're like like logo rock stars in that group, right? And you know, good for them, right? Like Alan Peters was the keynote speaker. He was for nervous right before him. Right before him. So they were the last two speakers at the event. And I mean, and they're just good down to earth guys. I'm amazing. I'm amazing. Like, you know, you would give him a compliment. And they're like, no, no, and they didn't like that. But it was, it was just neat to see people so wrapped up because they're both specialized as logo designers. Yes. That's their thing. Yeah. They're not, you know, they're not in a brand strategist. They don't even advertise that they do giant brand work, although I'm sure they can. But they were like, yeah, just like they focused in on this. And they came about it in different ways. They had their different approaches. But both are like like rock stars. Yeah. Totally rock stars. In fact, my wife, she doesn't understand graphic design, you know, so I have to explain it to her in musical terms. So I say James, right, Alan Peters is the Jimmy Hendrix of graphic design of logo design. And James Bernard is the Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page. Of local design. Right. And she's like, oh, okay, I totally get that. But everybody that we're listening to knows who these two guys are. Absolutely. But they are like that level of what we do. And it's funny because okay, that whole event wasn't just a logo design event, right? No, no, no. But I think everybody, whether you're a typographer, a hand lettering artist, whether you're a layout artist, everybody can appreciate logo design because it's just, it's that one part of this industry that people can just look and appreciate just as it is. They don't have to learn the strategy. They can look at something and just get instant gratification. Like, you know, when they were both doing their presentations, they showed different versions of what they've done. And you can hear the audience. Oh, yeah. Like because they got it. And they got the fact that it was both beautiful, but it told a great story. Right. And again, it's, it's, you can tell the experience that these guys have in, in presenting this kind of stuff. Yeah. Just based on the appreciation regardless. Right. Because again, that whole crew was everything from web designers to, they were, they were like, people who did apparel there. There were silk screeners, you know, again, it just, it was, but everybody appreciated that. Yeah. Which I thought was really cool. Yeah. You know, it's funny because Alan said something that was quite awesome. And I think this is probably why we as designers love the logo. He's like, if you went into, into Home Depot and you did a 360, chances are you're going to see at least a dozen logos here. Right. So they're everywhere. Yeah. Right. But it's such a fine line to, to get that perfect to get. Yes. Well, and that's, and that's why I wanted to do this episode. Hmm. Because, um, you know, we've talked about logo design before. We've talked about, you know, rules to level your game up and this and that, right? And how to start and, and you hear a lot of the same information out there. But I thought, instead of like going at the bottom, right? I wanted to approach, you know, um, like these irrefutable laws, you know, of legendary logo designers, not just, you know, like, you know, Alan Peters and James Bernard, who are like living legends in my opinion, but then even Paul Rand and Saul Vass, right? Digging deep. Digging deep, but not just on the basic level, but this is, this is like that advanced shit. Okay. This advanced shit that, you know, okay, you know, if you're starting out, of course, you can appreciate this, but if you've been doing this for a long time, you understand this stuff. Yes. So I thought this, this would be a neat approach to just cover a lot of these. Um, and against our friends, they are even, even quoted in here. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So that's why I have created the 18 laws of legendary logo design. Okay. And this is, these are just, these are like 100% laws that come from logo legends past and present. Okay. I'll agree that if you follow this, this will be on level up your game. This takes it to a whole new level. Yeah. Okay. So like, for example, number one, before jumping into logo design, research relentlessly. Okay. We've talked about this in the past, that good creative, it doesn't just come from blind inspiration. Yeah. It comes from research. Okay. The more you know about, you know, um, like, uh, the more you know about the audience, right? The more you know about the competition, right? The more you know about the context of what it is that you're creating, right? Honestly, good creative comes from data, not just like inspiration. And this, this is where I think, you know, really separates a lot of the, the bigger legends of logo design. Yeah. For some of the younger ones are the new ones because oftentimes people will start on a Google search. Yeah. Right? And they'll just look at visuals. But I mean, that is so far down the road that you, you shouldn't even be thinking, you know, visuals at that point. You need to read because inspiration comes from insights that you start getting on, on all this information that you're taking in. Yeah. And you know, a great story that Alan talked about in his thing was the city of Egan logo. Mm hmm. He lived there. He lived there. He lived that shit. How much closer to it can you get? I do everything about that. That was great. The people, the history. Yes. And why the current Mark was missing it, missing the Markle all levels. Yeah. Right? So again, it's to your advantage. Okay. Before you start jumping into any sort of logo design is go and do an exhaustive search, find data to back up your opinions. You know, find these insights, these quirks, go down those rabbit holes and surprise your customer. Okay. I got a quote here. Okay. From O.T. Aker. O.T. Aker. Okay. I had to look at that. I have German. German, right? Yeah. Yeah. What did I say? that good design is intelligence. Made visible. - Ooh, Ryan. - Brilliant. - I love that. - That's good. - So, number two. Okay. Before you design the logo, understand the brand. - Very good. - This is a huge mistake. Oftentimes people, again, we'll go onto a Google search. They'll pick out logos. They'll go on to be hints. And this is where they start. Which is the worst place. That's starting backwards. Okay. Honestly, before you do that, you need to start with the strategy. Okay. You need to understand the voice, the brand's purpose. There has to be a mission here that you're designing for, not just for aesthetics. You need to get inside the company's soul, find out about their values. And you need to be able to live and breathe and understand what their purpose is. For you can even get onto Google and do a search or Pinterest or whatever. If you even do that, which I think we all secretly do a little. - Oh, yeah, I'm used to it. - After the fact, not first. Okay. So again, I think that that's a huge difference between legendary logo designers. Okay. Versus the ones who just start up. - Yeah, okay. That's a huge difference. - That's a huge difference. - Fair assessment. I agree with that 100%. - So a quote from our good old friend, Mr. Paul Rand. - Ooh. - Mm-hmm. Don't sketch a line until you know what you're designing for. - Oh, that's awesome. - That's brilliant. - Exactly what you said. - Even don't even get the pen and pay paper out. Just do your research first. - Do your research find out the purpose. - Yeah. - Find out about the brand that you have to support. - I think that's brilliant, right? - Oh, that's great. - All right. Now we're starting to move in the right direction here. Number three. While designing a logo, respect the cultural context. Okay. Oftentimes cultural context is overlooked. Okay. And I always use the example. If you're, if you got a vegan restaurant, you don't want your mascot to be a chicken. - Oh, okay. - I see. - You need to, you need to design with empathy and you need to understand the audience that your logo has to connect. - Right. - Okay. So again, this is where cultural context is number one. It's, I'm very, and people overlook this all the time. Your logo needs to make sense in the world that it's gonna live it. Otherwise, it's not gonna be memorable. - Right. - Okay. - Very famous quote by Raymond Loewy. - Raymond Loewy. - Design must reflect the culture and aspirations of its audience. - Ah. - Okay. So, ties in beautifully, okay. With the audience, okay. So remember, respect the cultural context that the logo is going to live. - Nice. - Okay. Number four. While designing the logo, embrace constraints. - Ah. - We've talked about, we had a whole podcast episode based on the importance of constraints and it is a creative superpower. - Big time. - Okay. It's something that people don't realize, but they excel when they're put underneath these limits. Okay. So again, constraints force you to be better creatively. - Yeah. - Okay. You know, the worst thing you can tell a designer is just, hey, - That's the limit. - Do whatever you want. You are the expert. This is the worst thing any designer could hear. Okay. - Sure creativity is within the box. You can think outside the box, but within the brief. - Yeah. - Okay. And that's really important. So you have to take into consideration budget, timelines, the different formats. These aren't enemies of a graphic designer. They're not enemies of a logo. They're actually fuel for the creativity. You know, Paul Rand used to implement his own constraints on the work he was doing. Even Massimo Vignoli and they didn't want an open field to do whatever they wanted. Okay. So again, Massimo Vignoli said, the more constraints one imposes, the more one frees himself. - Mm. - Okay. So think about that. The more you give yourself and work within, the more creative you can be with those hands. - You will and can be within the parameters. - Wow. - Right? That's heavy. - That is heavy. - It seems counterintuitive, but I totally get that. - Yeah. - You know, you live that life. It's kind of exactly like you said, if you're going on a journey, you could go anywhere. Why not have a path? Why not have a direction? - He did something. - And you're going, right? - Exactly. - Yeah. - That's kind of the same idea. - All right. Number five. During the logo design process, lead the client with confidence. - Oh. - Okay. So this is important. So again, remember, you are the expert. You're not an order taker and you're not a pixel pusher. - Right. - Okay. - You need to present solutions to the customers. Not options. So this is a key mistake that so many graphic designers do. And it takes years before you're confident on doing, and what I mean by this is, you don't want to present them three options. And be like, here you go. I wasn't sure which way you wanted to go. So I've given you three options. Let me know what you think. That's the worst way to present to anybody. Giving customers options is great, but you can't couch it like that. You have to be able to explain every option with reason. - Right. - This is why. - This is why we're presenting this concept. - This is why we're gonna say, let's discuss. - Yeah. - Okay. - Never put it back to them and be like, what do you think? - What do you think, Mr. customer? (laughing) - And you're like secretly sweating. (laughing) - So, again, they hired you as the pro. You are the expert, and that expert status is what we are constantly trying to attain. So be that expert. - Yeah. - All right. So Paul Rand said, don't try to be original. Just try to be good. - Wow. - Right? - That's heavy. - That is another good one, right? - Right, right. - From Mr. Rand. - All right, number six. When creating a logo, think first and design. - I can second. - Okay. - So again, don't let the tools that you have, and you know, access to, lead the journey for you, okay? Don't let them lead the process. Ideas need to come first, okay? If anything, you have to start thinking analog because good ideas, good logos, good layouts, they begin on paper. They begin in your mind. - They begin in the shower. - When you're getting ready in the morning. - Exactly. - Or when you wake up at three in the morning from the cold sweat going, oh, I don't want to do this. - I want it. - This is true. And oftentimes what happens is, again, people tend to have access to all these tools and they start jumping in way the hell too early on this one, right? You need to make sure they're just tools. Okay, so you want to start this process, analog. You want to start in your mind. You want to start pen to paper, right? And we've talked about this, you know, even here, oftentimes it's like, you know, I'll have something that's doing three weeks. Doesn't mean I'm going to start a week before it's due. I'm already starting, you're doing it - You're doing it, you're thinking three weeks. And I'm already keeping my eyes open. I'm already taking in all these new ideas that work with this idea, right? I'm not quickly jumping in a illustrator and jumping into, you know, doing my searches and everything else to get ahead of the game. So again, think first, design second, okay? - Nice. - Alan Peters said, the computer is a tool. Not a crutch. - Okay. So think about this. - Yes. - Think first, design second. - Yeah. - Number seven, a logo should deliver meaning, not metaphors. Oftentimes, again, people try to get a little to clever with their logos, okay? But when you look at some of the experts logos, the logo legends, you know, or even some of the people that are killing it right now, they're designing logos that are clear, that are really understandable. 'Cause clarity trumps this cleverness that everybody tries to attain. - Yes. Totally. - To strive for clarity in the logo. You know, great logos, they communicate fast. They communicate loud, bold. In your face, you get it, right? There isn't this whole explanation that you have to try to, you know, get and understand before you understand and appreciate the logo. That's why people who even don't, who aren't logo designers, can appreciate a good logo because they get it. - Yeah, they totally get it. - They get it, right? - Exactly. - So again, Neville Brody said, make it unmistakably clear and then make it beautiful. - Oh, nice. - Love that way, right? And it's true. People worry too much about being clever and trying to do deeper meaning. Don't worry about that, just, okay? Make it clear first. And then once you've got that idea, then you worry about making it beautiful. - Yes, yes. - Cool. - Nice. - Number eight, design logos for memory, not just for meaning. Ah, okay. So here, I just talked about the importance of meaning, but that doesn't mean anything if they can't remember that logo, right? So again, if it's not memorable, it's forget about, regardless how good the meaning is and you did previously, okay? Like the best logos, okay, are burned into your memory. The first time people see them, right? It's because, you know, after a single glance, if they get it, it's easy to recall because it's distinct, okay? One thing people need to remember is recognition also beats cleverness. See where I'm going with this? - Yeah, totally, totally. - People tend to try to be overly clever with what they're doing, but they're missing out on some really big important parts, right? and being able to easily recall a logo is more important than again being clever with the logo. So what Paul Rand once again said, a symbol should be easily remembered and easily recall. I remember hearing the story that somebody said, and I was trying to find this quote, I couldn't remember, but they said, a good logo, okay, should be like a child, should be able to draw if they recall it. Okay. I know. And this is where you get some of the legendary ones there, right? Like the Nike, the Gapples, even the Adidas. Yeah. Yeah. The kids are like, yeah, three stripes, one, two, three, and it makes a triangle. This swooosh thing, right? So and again, this kind of goes back to the easily memorable. Okay. Right. All right. Number nine, when designing a logo, try to achieve simplicity with purpose. Okay. One single clear idea wins. Yeah. Okay. Oftentimes what happens is people try to, you know, layer in ideas and meanings and logos. Yeah. And it becomes really difficult to try to recall that story. Understand what it is you look at. If you look at the stuff, the early stuff from Paul Rand and Massimo Vignelli, one thing, and they knew what it was. You knew it was the plane on the airplane, right? Or the tail wing on an airplane. You looked at it, you saw it, you got it. Yeah. You didn't have to sit there. You didn't have to sit there and start thinking, oh, shit, you know, this company's future and this is a, it's just, it's an easy to understand concept. Okay. So one idea executed clearly is worth, you know, 10 logos, you know, of, of substandard, of course. Yeah. So what you got to do is you got to strip out the noise. Okay. And you got to create a good logo. Not try to create a puzzle that people have to try to understand and put together. Absolutely. Yeah. That's the challenge. Yeah. If you, if you, if you have to, if you have 15 seconds to figure out a goddamn logo, then you're like, there's no way you're, you're right. It's more like a puzzle than anything else. People won't give you that much of time. No. And they're focused, right? And it'll be gone. It'll be gone. Yeah. Absolutely. Right. So again, Saul Bass said this best. He said, I want to make things simple, but not simpler. Okay. So and again, it was just easy to understand, but don't make it like doing. Oh, yeah. Exactly. All right. Number 10. Okay. I think you've all heard us going about this one. But this is something that all logo legends kind of follow. Design logos for timelessness. Yes. Not trend. Yes. Okay. So again, you want to build something for long lasting impact. Not for these buzzwords, not for what's hot right now. Right? Because again, that's the wrong way to approach this. Logo legends have built logos that last for decades. Like Saul Bass's average logo was two, three decades more than would last and it would keep going. It's freaking crazy. And the reason is they focus on good design fundamentals. They didn't worry about what was bads and they didn't worry about what was trending right now. Right. They made sure that their logos that they designed would last. Yeah. And because they weren't the weren't hinging on anything else other than good design. Yes. Yes. Massimo Vignelli said, if you do, if you do it right, it will last forever. Brilliant. Right? Yes. And it's so true. Yeah. That is true. Number 11, when designing logos, obsess over proportions. Okay. So good balance. Oh, okay. equals visual harmony. Right. Okay. Oftentimes you see on the internet, people trying to give you formulas. Quick guys. Do this. Do this. Do you want to line up your logo on a vertical format? Three of these. Three of these. I do with these wide. That's okay when it comes to starting out and trying to get your bearings and understand how it all works. Yeah. But the reality is, you know, there's a new secret formula to proportions because there's so many variations. Yes. You have to start, you know, getting an eye for this. You have to start being able to trust your gut on what, you know, the visual hierarchy proportions are. Right. This way, it's like when you look at it, it looks balanced. Yes. Okay. And that's that's the key. Good balance equals visual harmony. Yes. Okay. So this quote, I have from our buddy, Alan Peter. Yes. Okay. Remember this. You feel it when it's wrong. Even if you don't know why. And that's so true. Yes. Absolutely. When we talked about the people who saw the logos on stage and the event that we were just at, they loved what they saw because it was beautifully executed. It was well designed. The proportions were good. They weren't off balance. They didn't have a huge mark, small text. The text didn't overlap way too much. They just appreciated. And this is what people can appreciate. A mark is good. It's memorable. And people can smile and appreciate it. And I like that gut instinct. Kind of. It is so true. I was, you know, I always kind of was embarrassed a little bit by that. Like trusting your gut. It's like after seeing all these videos of people actually literally doing this stuff. But it was just like sometimes that just doesn't fit with what I'm doing, right? I hate to say this. Not sometimes, but almost all the times. I have never. Okay. Good. Ever been able to make one of these silly, you know, do this two X up one X left stretch this to the right. Again, I get it. If you have no clue, yeah. How to do that. Right. And you need to start somewhere. And you don't have that gutting instinct built into a man. You need to work on that. And you need to understand that, you know, how those actual portions work. Yeah. They work in your favor. Right. Yeah. Right. Oh, damn. That's great. That's great. And Alan said that too. That's that's very cool. So true. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Number 12. Okay. Master typography for logo designs. She says. Okay. People don't understand this. They don't pay enough attention to this. Okay. You type is literally just as important as the mark. You can be just as important type can stand out and stand for a brand just like the mark itself can. Okay. Yeah. The type accentuates the mark. It accentuates the brand. It doesn't take away from it. So resist to just drop in any font you want and just squish it and play, you know, that type. Yeah. Yes. Round with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to be able to find the right font. You need to be able to customize it a little bit. And you see this a lot. James does this. They'll customize angles, corners, you know, they will take that font and make it a one off. They'll make it bespoke for that logo. This way, it's not like you're just picking something off the shelf. Yeah. Okay. Typography isn't secondary to the mark. Okay. And it's not an afterthought. It's part of the mark. It's part of the logo mark. So it needs to have enough attention given to it. Yeah. You know, when you're actually building out these marks. Right. So our good friend Martina Flore said type is a voice. Words are what you say. And type is how you say it. Oh. Okay. So think about that. Whether that whether that your logo is just a word mark. Whether it's the font within the lock up altogether. Pay attention and obsess over the type just as much as you do with that with that mark itself. Right. Yeah. That's great. That's yeah. That's always I always kind of thought that a lot of people are like they spend all the time on the mark and then just drop something. Poppins. There you go. You know what I mean? Yeah. Guilty on our mark. We're hitting issues all over the board on that bad boy. But yeah, that's that's brilliant. The type is super important just as important as a mark. Wow. All right. Number 13. When designing logos focus on the form. Not on the frill. Right. So again, kill the fluff. Okay. Don't worry about about you know all the drop shadows and all the shiny parts to it. Okay. Yeah. Focus on the core shape because if the core shape fails, the logo fails. Yeah. Okay. And you can get away from that unfortunately. Design works, you know, even if you strip it right to its bone right into the core and that's what you should be focusing on first before you even think about gradients and effects and colors and everything else like that. I think people easily get lost on that. Yeah. Yeah. What was it? James said, it's like if you're adding stuff and you don't know why. Yeah. That you shouldn't be doing that. That's your red flag right there. That's your red flag. Exactly. When you look at all the beautiful logo modernism books. Okay. Or you look at like all these classic logo books. Okay. They always show them, you know, in its basic form. Yeah. Okay. Often it's just black and white. Yeah. Okay. And then again, you can appreciate the logo for its form for the beauty and what's been created. Not all the flourishes and fluff. There's no floating around it. There's no drop shadows. Yeah. Have a nice gradient through it. Geez. You know, God. Wasn't a Scott Fuller who said like, you know, you can polish a turd as much as you want, but it's still a turd. Didn't he say that? I think he did. If he didn't, it's something he would say. Geez, right? Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. You get the point. Yeah. Don't put as much lipstick on a pig. It's still going to be big. That's great. It's still going to be a pig. Exactly. Oh, that sounded so nice. (laughing) All right, number 14. Always test logos first in black and white. Oh, okay. So again, if you don't got any colors, that's really not a problem. If the logo is done, right? Okay, if your design is solid, you know, it can stand on its own without colors. And this is very similar to the point before that, you know, color should be considered seasoning. Okay, you need to have a good solid mark, okay? Good solid logo that can stand on its own with just black and white, okay? Make the whole monochromatic experience, make that the mission first, okay? And then you can think about the colors after the fact, okay? You can hide color, gradients, all that fluff can hide so much. Yes. Okay, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's working. So make sure that your logo mark always works in black and white first. Nice. Our friend, Mr. Bernard, Mr. Jim's Bernard said, if it doesn't work in black and white, it doesn't work. (laughing) Even simple. There you go. That's brilliant. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Almost done, guys. Number 15, okay? Prioritize real world logo function over fancy mockups. So this is interesting and this is something I learned at Creative South, okay? And this was something of, you know, our friend, James. Bernard told us, okay? He was doing a workshop on the proper way to do mockups. And I was like, well, dude, don't you just go online? You have mockups, right? Because they're everywhere. Oh, the free pick and the way you go, right? Like literally, right? And he's like, you know, that's not a good representation before the customer. Right. And I was like, you're right. Because here, I could be putting the mark on a truck. They might only have cars. Yeah. I might put it on like a storefront, but they might actually use it like this on their own building or inside in a different way, right? It's so important that we realize how the logo is actually used in the real world, okay? So your logo needs to work everywhere, not just in your presentation. Yeah. And again, to his point, take it a step further and put it on their material and their storefront in their business, on their shirts, okay? And give them ownership, right? It needs, design needs to live in its environment, not just in your presentation. Michael Beirut said, a logo doesn't live in a vacuum. It lives in the real world, right? And that's so true. Because again, oftentimes, you'll see people will take a logo and they'll put it on a billboard on the side of the building. But we're talking it's a basement business. It's never gonna be on there. We're gonna have a ratio, no, maybe. But I mean, again, it's just not a true depiction of how it will be used. So what I learned from James was that, the closer you are in putting it in its actual environment, in its home, the better it is for customers to actually visualize, yeah, we're gonna use this. And they could see that. It's like, hey, that's my shirt with the logo on it, right? Absolutely. Bring it right home to people. Like that's really, really cool. And I think he kind of alluded to as a little stalkerish because you're going to people's. But I mean, I think they appreciate that. They appreciate that extra effort. You go the extra effort and you find their material, find pictures and you actually make it work. This is your storefront. You actually even said he would go as far as asking them for images, asking some stuff to share. So it made sense. Yeah. All right, number 16. Design logos with the whole system in mind. Okay. So a logo is only one piece of a bigger identity. Of a bigger brand. And oftentimes people sell it this way. They sell it as just a part of a bigger, larger identity system. You need to start thinking of logo design in this way. Pentagram does a great job at this. Yes. Every time you see them launching, you know, a new logo, launching a new brand, they're not just showing the logo. They're showing the logo. They're showing it on the sides of buildings. They're showing it on bags. They're showing it in like different type of environments and how that one logo can be extrapolated into 30 different items, talking about 30 different departments. Okay. It's part of a larger system. Okay. So again, you need to think it's usage. You need to think of its movement. It's scale. Where it's going to be used. How else the applications it can be used? So this is a really important part that I don't know if enough people think about it. The long term use of this logo. They just, here's your mark. Here's your delivery. See you later, type idea. The RIST at Pink Pony is amazing. It's stuff too. It's incredible. Her brand guidelines and what the logo could, is absolutely incredible. It's like a 40 page book. Absolutely it is. So yeah, yeah, but that's how you do that. It's every possible variant you can use. You can come up with, she's got it in place. She's got it in place. And it's true, right? People need to start thinking this way. Yeah. Because Paula Shur said, designing a logo isn't design. It's designing a system. And that's the way you need to think. It is just one part of a much larger system. And again, this is how pros think about this. Not just your average designer. Number 17. When designing logos, say more by showing and speaking less. Mm, okay. Now, where I'm going with this, okay, is it's really important to leave some room for interpretation on the customer's side, okay? If you tell the full story with the logo, there's nothing intriguing, okay? There's nothing for people to figure out, okay? People love to figure out a logo and feel like, I got it. I got it. Yeah, exactly, okay? You know, the suggestion is often stronger than the explanation of the logo itself. So the Nike mark, okay? Nike, the Nike logo doesn't say shoe anywhere, okay? But it shows motion, okay? WWF, worldwide life foundation, okay? The logo of the panda. It doesn't say our mission, okay? It makes you fall in love and gives empathy with it, okay? There, you have to leave some room for personal interpretation to draw somebody in to your logo into that brand and help them come to that conclusion or a simmer conclusion on their own, right? Right. So, okay, Alan Fletcher, okay, said, "What you leave out is just as important as what you put in." Yes, that's right, right? And it's very true, perfect to this point. It's just as equal. Yeah, yeah, really? That's awesome. Last but not least, number 18. When you're designing logos, be brutal with your sketches, okay? So again, you need to kill weak ideas and never ever present that shit to your customer, okay? Keep only your strongest ideas. Paul Rand was notorious for crunching up paper after paper. He would have mounds of papers around his desk because he was ruthless when it came to, you know, only showing the best marks, okay? And again, you need to edit ruthlessly. It comes, you know, Alan Peters, he would do like a hundred sketches and he would, you know, like constantly, just after weeks and weeks, sketch after sketch after, but he doesn't present them all. He presents his only top choices, okay? But you need to edit ruthlessly, okay? When it comes to this situation, only the strongest concepts, ideas, should survive, okay? So last quote for this process is by our friend, David Carson, who said, "You have to get rid of the crap before you can find the core." (laughing) Yes, we do it. - Right, we do it, I love it. David. So again, a lot of these ideas, you know, a lot of these are very straightforward. - Yeah, yeah. - Action oriented. - Yeah, yeah. - But a lot of them really make you think about the process that you have to go through and creating a logo design. If you want people to look at your logos and have that reaction that we saw this weekend, it has to be more than just something that looks good on the screen, okay? You need to hit the purpose, hit those brands, okay? Make sure that it's clear enough so people get it. But there's enough intrigue that they have to, you know, come to their own conclusion what it is that you're looking at. And oftentimes it's not even that much, like again, for example, that Eagan logo. Okay, there was enough white space in touch and that you got that, it was a tree, that it was a ground, it was in the hill, you got that. - Yeah, it didn't have to spell it out, exactly. - Yeah, exactly. - And again, like one of my favorite logos, the Metalama logo after, right? You see the code square, but you see the little logo inside there, right? You need to be able to, you know, have people appreciate, you know, the outcome, 'cause it has to be more than just aesthetics. And I think that's what the top designers do when they come up with logos. Is they make sure that it's not just about the aesthetics and looking good, but there's a deeper purpose, it has deeper meaning in this, right? And again, it gives enough, but takes away. - Right, yes. Awesome, wow, wow. I don't know, I kind of felt like inspired after this. - Totally, right? Like it was great, like again, like we had the great fortune of hanging with the three, like, - Awesome, I know. - Of the logo industry. and it was kinda like wow that was That was a pretty heavy experience. Right. It was really cool. I'm not surprised that you wrote this thing. And again, it really is. It really separates. Enough of this is a matter of separating the new to the old. But if you want to elevate, you know, your way of thinking. If you want to elevate your logo game, you know, your marketing, your brand game, you need to start thinking like the legends do. And you need to start creating for longevity. Yep. They have to be deeper the way you think. You know, through your marks, your process. And again, you have to be able to deliver something that's going to last for decades. Not done in a year or two once the next five comes in. Exactly. I think a lot of people gravitate to this because, oh, doing a logo marks easy. But I don't think so. I think it's probably the hardest aspect of what we do. Yeah. Like it's right. There's a lot of moving parts in this stuff. Yeah, there really is. There really is. I think it's really hard to do. - Yeah, it's true, it's interesting though, but yeah. - Yeah, it was very inspirational. Yeah, and the nicest part is, they're decent people. - Everybody's great, everybody gives back to this community. - Yeah. - And I'm looking forward to doing Crop next week and kind of meeting a whole new batch of people. - Crop a few croppin'. - Oh good idea. - See what I did there? - And again, a lot of these people we don't even know, it's kind of interesting. We have been fortunate enough to have a circle of influence, but now we're gonna be meeting a new circle of the numbers. - I'm very excited about this. - Me too, yeah. Very cool. - Awesome. - All right everybody, I hope you got some really cool shit out of this. Again, the idea for this isn't to put anybody down, but it's how to elevate your game. And again, this is the kind of stuff. These are all points that I got. And I researched and studied from old to new, but legends, not just logo designers, but these are the people who are creating shit that is gonna last. If it hasn't already for decades to come. - Yeah. - So by all means share your feelings with us. You can find us on Instagram. You can hit us up on YouTube. And yeah, all we gotta say is I'm maximal. - And my name is Sean. - Stake Redo. - And Stake Red. - Hi. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)