LL Cool J: Four Decades of Relevance

(upbeat music) - The name, ladies love cool James. - Man, I was just wishful thinking, man. I just wanted him to love me, bro. - I told you. - Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad? - Yeah, well he didn't say that, but you know, that was the vibe. That was the vibe that we got from Quincy Jones. - Yeah. - I mean, think about, by the grace of God, you look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place. - Yeah. - Saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love, and you're not afraid to say it is the most - Fearless. - Fearless and courageous thing, right? You know, because like my thing was, I could say I need love because I'm not scared of you. - This is what now, with Trevinoa. (upbeat music) - Man, there are a few people that have more of an illustrious career than you. - Oh, well. - You know what's actually interesting is, it actually makes it a little intimidating because you as a human being are interesting enough. - You know what I'm saying? - Thank you for that. - Okay. - That's like the biggest reason I would want to hang out with you and we want to hang with you and talk to you, and you know, just like figure out how you think, why you think, get inspired, break things down together, but the body of work that comes with you, the body of work that comes with it. - Yeah. - You're like, man, do not take for granted. It's like one of the only artists to have like back-to-back, multi-platinum selling albums, you know, like you have somebody who has defined a genre. That, that to me still like blows my mind, and we'll talk about, but like, defined a genre. You know what I mean? Not even a pioneer, not like, oh yeah. No, no, no, define something. And then has gone on to redefine every single element of what they do, where they do it, how they do it. - Thank you, man. - He's just like, damn. - Yeah. - LL Cool J. - The other thing that he's defined very well, he defined it, he, defined it, was age. - Oh. You're like, that thing is not coming to my house. (laughing) - Stay away from me. (laughing) - In the window with the sniper rifle, like get back, now, you know, you know what, we do the best we can, right? Just stay in the gym and hope for the fingers crossed, bro. That's all we could do, right? - You've just, you've just beat that guy. - Well, from your mouth to God's ears. - No, 100%. So I was thinking before we came here, I was like, okay. You know, like if someone is in the army, they become a general. - Yeah. - You have to call them general forever. - Yeah, yeah. - They're a president, they're still president forever. So with you, is it LL, cool J, or does it cool, or does it J, or is it LL? So, well, and actually, who gets to call you Todd? There we go. - That's funny. So, you know, actually, you know, whenever I'm more set, or you know, just in like around situations like this, I like people to call me Todd, because sometimes I feel like, when I know people, and if they call me LL, I feel like, you know, like I'm pulling out my Wikipedia for them or something. It's like, you know, so Todd is like, like if we're at a conference or we're hanging out, I prefer you call me Todd. - Yes. - Right? I don't really, honestly, I don't really take, I take the art seriously, but I don't really look at accolades, and I don't walk around with those stripes like that, and I don't think about that. I don't spend my life thinking about that. I'm thinking about what we could do great, what we can, where we can have some fun, what we can create, you know, where we could create some magic, you know, what we're doing wrong, that we can get better at. - You know what I mean? I think about things that way. I don't really, just like you, you're very successful, you know, you just don't go around thinking about your accomplishments, you think about what's next, and what you could do, at least for me. - Yeah, but I think, I love Eugene's question, because there are certain names that become more than just how you refer to the person, they become an idea. - Yeah. - Do you get what I'm saying? - I understand. - And then that name comes with like a familiarity. It comes with an idea behind it. So it says a lot about you as a person that you go on set at a conference in a space where I'm with familiar people, or even like intimate people, I prefer Todd, because I want them to not think of my Wikipedia. You see, that already puts you in a completely different world, because most people work their entire lives to make sure that everyone in their lives always knows about their work. And you're trying to do the opposite. - Yeah, you know, you know, and it goes back, I guess out of the three, I would want it to be cool. You know what I'm saying? You know, I would want it to be that, you know, for the right reasons, you know what I'm saying? But, you know, there comes a time when you gotta let your accomplishments speak for themselves. So, you know, like even with my music, when I was making music consistently, I would say the most outlandish, most cocky, most arrogant thing you could think of on the song. But when we press, stop on the song or when we, you know, when we stop it, it stays on the song. Because you didn't let that hype, or that idea follow you beyond the recording. - No, no, no, no. Because it's, you know, arrogance can be boring. Not necessarily for the people watching, but for the arrogant person, 'cause they're just running around, just not learning anything, not seeing anything, not really having any true authentic experiences because they're so arrogant that their windows are shut. They're not letting, the curtains are drawn. They're not letting no sunshine in. They're not letting any light in. - I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. That's amazing, arrogance can be boring. I genuinely never heard anyone say to the person who's out. - No, no, no, that's what I mean. - Yeah, arrogance can be boring because you were walking around thinking, you figured it out so you don't open yourself up to anything that might come in. When I was trying to think about how we even contextualize you as a human being, so many people know you. Some people know you through only one facet of your life. I found myself wondering, I was like, for somebody who has been famous, famous from the age of 15, 16, 16 years old. I mean, famous, famous. If you were in a world where nobody knew you. - K-bird. (laughs) - No one knows anyone. (laughs) - Where, where, where? - K-bird. - That's hilarious. (laughs) - K-bird, are you mean like, no, they know you, K-bird. - I'm on a wheelchair. (laughs) - I know, K-bird. - K-bird. - Where's K-bird? - It's the Seven Islands off the coast of Africa and Portugal. - I'm going. (laughs) - Right there. - We can bet money they know him. - I know they do. - Because he's done too much. - They do. - Because it's like, okay. They'll know him from a movie. - I'm okay with that, just room to grow, actually, you know? - Yeah, but, how would you introduce yourself in that world? How would you give somebody a quick introduction into who you are and how you became that way? - Well, yeah, like when you think of your life, when you go like, oh, this is what, 'cause most people would put it down to your rap career. Some people would put it down to your formative life experiences. Some people might put it down to your success, but when you think of your life, where do you look back and go to like, oh man, that moment there, that's the beginning of this human being that you owe me today? - Well, I think at the end of the day, it's the software that we programmed, right? We are all biological hardware. Our mother gives birth to us. We are biological hardware. And then how we're programmed through our upbringing is when the software and the programs are uploaded, right? And unfortunately, some of us get spammed out early from the virus and then it gets nasty work. It gets some nasty work in that program, you know what I mean? What is that programming? And so the first programming I got from my grandmother and my mother was if a task is once begun, never leave it till it's done. Be thy labor greater small, do it well or not at all. And so from day one, I've been thinking about things in that context, you know? I never, you know, I just, I'm a big believer that you can make your dreams a reality, you know? I sincerely believe that. And I don't, I consistently look to conquer myself, you know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually, you know? - No, no, I know exactly what you mean. - Yeah. - That's a fascinating way to look at it. 'Cause you know what I love about anyone who tells a story, like that you say about their software developer, their mom or their dad or whoever? - If it was you like, program them. It's, it always seems to me like the best programmers are the people in our lives who know how to give us the correct information for us, not for anyone. - Yes, absolutely. - 'Cause what you just said is powerful, but it seemed like it really worked for you. - That is, you know what? You are, that's a very, very, a student, that's a real sharp insight because everything that works for everybody, right? - Yeah. - For me, I just happen to be a little kid who like hanging around their grandparents and actually listen to their parents, listen to their mother, listen to what my grandmother, I actually listened to them. I thought what they were saying made sense. - You are a unique kid. Which is really crazy. - No, the only time I didn't listen is when there was time, when my mother, my grandmother said to me, you either, 'cause I had made my first song. - Right. - And my grandmother said, you either go to school, or you gotta get out. - And that's, or you work? Or you put your shirt on? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - First of all, yeah. - Go jewelry on. - Yeah, put a shirt on. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely more of me to put my shirt on. Yeah. And whatever you do, don't pierce your nipples. Whatever you do, please. Again, don't ever pierce your nipples again. [LAUGHTER] You know what I mean? I'm dead. So yeah, that was the thing, right? It's like, that was the only moment. That was the only moment when I was like, no, I gotta do this. And I went after my dream. But other than that, I always listen. So you know, it's choices are deep. Joyce is a deep, you know? I mean, what you guys have accomplished, you know, globally, you know, you came from your country and came all the way around the world and you came to America, conquer them. Like, that's a big deal. But that had to start somewhere. That had to start somewhere. Like that spirit, that determination, because you have to scrap, you know, get, make your way out of your country. Go through that whole process and then arrive here and you're in the corner of a room again and work your way back to the center. Then go to the next floor and you're in the corner of the room again. You got to work your way back to the center. So that's pretty-- so you get it. That journey, it's the thing is, the question is, the question is, can you deal with difficulty and friction? Like, it's like, always tell people in order to really be successful, especially in the arts, and you have to have rhino skin and a baby's heart. Yeah. That's beautiful. Rhino skin and a baby's heart. You know, I find that I can always tell people who are raised by females. Who are raised by mothers, grandmothers, aunts. Women who raise you will always instill in you some level of honesty that you will never get out of a friend or out of a meal. You know what, though, my grandfather was there for me. Yeah. I had a man in my life as well as women. I had balance. But the thing is, what the honesty thing you're talking about is true. It's like, you know, people need to tell you, you know, what it is. Like, my grandmother would always say to me, like, if they felt-- Like, my grandfather would be like, oh, you're swaggering, you're shoulder. You're swaggering. Right? You know, I'd be a little kid. What are you going to do when you're 16? You're swaggering, right? And then my grandmother would be like, you know, walk around here like your little law thought alright and all that. You know, you're thinking, you know, alright. You know, it's like, I had a very wild, because my grandfather-- He was a jazz musician. He was a jazz musician. He came from Barbados. Right, right, right. Yeah, so I had a Caribbean household with a Southern American. No, that's beautiful. OK, OK. So that kind of, it was a different type of upbringing. Yeah, that's completely different. That island vibe, like, the way, like, Barbados, you know, my friends from Barbados, Trinidad, et cetera, it's just like a different relationship, especially intergenerational I find. Yes. Like, depending on where you're from in the world, some cultures I find the relationship between generations is a lot more strict and closed off. Yes. And then with some island cultures, it's a lot more like integrated and inclusive. It's people spending more time across generations together. Definitely. You know, eight years old, and I'm with my grandparents hanging out all the way out there having company. There you go. All right. You see what I'm saying? So I'm sitting around hearing, like, you know, my grandfather sitting there with the bourbon and the peanuts. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's just, you know, it's swaggering. Swaggering, you know, it can knock the steam out there. And all that, you know, you know, what kind of kid were you like at that? Were you a talkative kid where you were, you know, because I don't know if I'm reading this right, you know, I've met you a handful of times. You know, we've met each other at the Grammys. Where you've been very kind to me. And like, you know, just like, I've always seen you as like a, it's weird to say this, but like, there's people I look at who are like big brothers in the roles that I've been lucky enough to occupy. Does that make sense? You know, so in many ways, like John Oliver was always like a big brother in TV for me because it was like, he was the other foreign guy who came and did this thing. Right, right. And then he like looked upon me like in like a really loving way, which I always appreciated. You did the same thing for me with the Grammys. Like every time I was through there, yeah, man, this guy would, 'cause like the Grammys is, oh man, it's a big lift. It's a heavy lift. Think about it. If you mess up, you are screwing up, forget yourself. There's that part already. You're an idiot, you're a loser, you've messed up everything, right? That's you, right? But think of what the night means to everybody else. Yeah. If you, yeah, if you screw up the night, if then you become the thing that people remember on a night when all they wanted to remember was their moment and their accomplishment. So the weirdest thing about it is you're trying to make the night not about you, but you have to facilitate the night. So all of that is on you. You're doing this thing, you're trying to get into it. The room is filled with every luminary you can imagine. So your spa struck and you're in awe. And you take, this is something a lot of people take for granted. I didn't realize this. Many of the people you look up to that you think know each other have never met. 100%. You'll be shocked at how many A-list actors, greatest musicians or meet for the first time at some of these events. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. You'll be shocked. Absolutely. So everything is happening in this room. Everything is happening in the, like the front of the world. And then you get this man who'll just come up to you, give me a big bear hug and he's like, you got this man. Yeah. He was like, yo, just do it. But he's just like, yeah, but then the other thing you gave me, you know, maybe I'm totally wrong in saying this is like, you seem like the most outgoing and yet shy person I know. Yeah, you know, you're not wrong. I think that's, I think you're not wrong. I'm like, I'm an introvert, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay. That's what I'm picking up. I'm an introvert, you know what I'm saying? So I love people and, you know, I'm comfortable around people. But, you know, I'm probably even more comfortable in a room with 2,000 books in a chair, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I mean? That's like the outside is not what recharges you. No. Yeah, not at all. Yeah. But I don't mind it. No, no, no, no. I'm vibing everything's good. It's good energy. But, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I will disappear. Like, where'd he go? Yeah. There is a where did he go factor? It's definitely a way to go factor. A million. A million. A million. A million. That's the longevity. That's why he's young. Done deal records, man. Sounds very familiar. Yeah, we just. Are you like that? We like that. Yeah. We're completely like. Yeah. Okay. We are 100% like that. Yeah, man. So you can maybe that's what it is. I can pick it up in somebody else where I go, this person is not necessarily needing me or anyone to engage with them. They're cordial, they're interested, they're curious, they will engage, they're warm. However, they do not need to fill space with noise. Absolutely. There you go. There you go. in silence as well. You know those people who sit at a table with you and then just feel like because this silence they have to be like so huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah because of this silence they have to be like "so" huh? LL. They still love him? Oh boy, here we go. Why didn't you give me like that? Because for a moment there I believed that you were that guy. You know those people. I was like "I believe it." You know those people. Yeah, I know them. Of course. And I understand it. 100%. Because some people are they made uncomfortable by it but I think it comes, it also comes partially with like being a watcher. 100%. Well you know, I think the world is, I think yeah you got to know yourself but the world is really interesting place and people are very interesting. People are very interesting. I mean you could just watch somebody a lady walking with a bike, with a coffee and like they just you know if you just watch people do walking with a cell phone, I was watching people when I came over here day-to-day. Do walking with a cell phone, he looks so suspicious and like I'm like where is he going to secret agent? He's watching, he's watching joggers as well. Yo, joggers are unbelievable. Unbelievable. Yeah everyone jogs differently for a different purpose. 100%. 100%. 100%. Some of them look like they need to jog. Some of them look like they've been jogging for a while. Some of them look like they shouldn't be jogging at all. He said "I want to walk." And he looked like he was so uncomfortable at our side. I said he's so uncomfortable. He looked like he's under arrest right now. I was like yo man, my man look. Yo, my man is hurt right now. No, no, no, no. No one I think of in moments like that. In all of psychology and all of self-help in all these worlds, the Lewis say to you hey don't worry about what's happening or what people think. No one cares. No one's looking at you. And then the person's like yeah and then this person goes outside for a walk. And not only is someone looking at them. The someone looking at them is L.O. Gujay. You never know who's watching. Yo, that is the craziest part. Yo, that is so you're so right about that. That's the thing. Yo, you know how crazy that is. Just think about that for a moment. Just I'm just in my car like look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Look at him. Oh man. Like I seen this this woman backing up from this guy like and I could tell she was like getting them to do something he didn't want to do. And it's you know, he was. Yeah, you really? No, you're like you're a full-on observer. Yeah. People watching is amazing. It's people watching is amazing. But okay, that explains a lot of like your music then, you know, one of the mistakes I've seen a lot of people make and maybe I'm being presumptive in assuming that this is a mistake. Two things I've noticed. One, this applies to you and I think to a lot of hip-hop artists in general, there's an obsession on longevity in a way that I don't see applied to other genres. That's the first thing and I found myself wondering like why that is, let me explain. So let's say there's been somebody who's been in rock and they've been playing rock music since they were 30 years old. We meet there or 20 even, we meet them when they're like 60. Only when they get into the latter years, I mean the real latter years, will people be like the staying power of Mick Jagger and the guys longevity and the Beatles and Paul McCartney etc. Right, yeah, exactly. But I found like with hip-hop artists at 40 something already, people are like, man, your longevity, your staying power, it's 40. Wow, I've always wondered what do you think that's about? Well, I think the reality is that the difference is that it's kind of like being around the founding fathers of a country, you know, it's like, if you're born when George Washington was born and 60 years later you'd be like, wow, America's been here for a while, you know what I mean? So it's a new genre. I think because the genre itself is so young, it's only 50 years old itself. As a genre. So I think people, yeah, I've never thought of it that way, people kind of, that has a lot to do with it. And also, we've never went through the cycle. See a lot of jazz, rock and roll, they've went through the cycle of seeing artists, the young and grow older in the music within it within the first time. Yeah, this is the first time that this is happening. So it's new for everybody. George Washington is still alive. Yeah. And that, yes. Exactly. Yes. Or you name the ancient person or person in history. I've never thought of that. Yeah. So you're walking around and it's like, oh, this grandma's the flash, oh, this DJ cool hurt. Oh, you know, there's the feel is for, oh, this run DMC, oh, this L.O. Cool, Jay. It's like, we hit, there's five, five, three, we're here. So it's a little different, I think, because of that. Now, some people kind of obsess over like appropriate age to make hip hop and all that. But I think the majority of time when you hear people obsessing over that, that's just fear talking and what it won't weigh. I think that they just fearful that they won't be able to do something impactful. So they start calling sour grapes on the idea of making something hot at a certain age. It's like, no, you just got a challenge in front of you. It's possible. You just got a challenge. Just own it. Just own it. Don't say that it's not appropriate to be hot at a certain age now because you really just afraid you can't do it anymore because your fans are still around. Yeah. Your fans didn't even, they didn't vaporize, they didn't evaporate, they didn't disappear. So you can still make something for your fans. Now, if you, you know, are trying to make, you know, whatever you want to make, but if you're trying to appeal to 11-year-olds, you might have a problem. But even then, you can put a Michael Jackson video on right now and a little kid will walk by and go, it's funny. You say that. The biggest argument I've been having with my friends recently about 11-year-olds. Don't do that. But second of all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There was no argument. No, okay. It's a matter of fact, there was bungee loaded. So, you know what it is, so often, you know, obviously because of the, because of the Michael movie, right? Yeah. Everyone's back in the music. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's seen a new lease on life in a different way, a new injection and you drive. And I've noticed so many people being like, oh, wow, my kids love the moon. I didn't realize that they would love the moon. My kids are, and I was going, there's this, there's this idea in art that I butt up against. And it's this idea that people need to change their art to match the audience that they think exists now, and I argue, great art stays great art. Great food stays great food. Absolutely. Like, great stays great. Absolutely. The only difference is, how do you tell the story differently to the person? Does this make sense? Yeah. So, so when I think of like, let's, let's use food as a simple example, right? Someone will go, oh, restaurants are dying. Young people don't go to restaurants anymore. They don't care for the food, they're like, no, that's not true, it's not that they don't care for the food. They don't care for the experience that the food was packaged in, right? Right. That's wrong, that's wrong. The institution that contained the food does not appeal to them, but the food, you know how you know this? Because that same chef will go open a food truck, put it in a neighborhood that's cool and young, the kids will flock there, they'll wait in line for hours, it'll be a tick-tock. That's true. And you go, this is the same chef. They don't care how much they pay. Exactly. They'll be like, but this chef at that restaurant, they go, have you been to this restaurant? They're like, we didn't even know he has a restaurant. We just know the food truck. And that's when you realize it's not about changing the art to the art. The audience is just about understanding the institution that you've, that you've left it in. Yeah. And that's something I've noticed you do consistently, two things, one, you're not afraid to relearn. I mean, you talked about this, you know, with Q-tip for instance is like, you said something that I've only heard one other like great, and I mean like a goat say, and there was Tiger Woods when he said he had to relearn his swing. And I remember hearing that going, what do you mean you have to relearn? You can't learn your Tiger Woods. And he talked about having to relearn his swing. Yeah. You, you, one of the only other people I've heard talk about that you said you had to relearn how to rap. Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, language changes, changes, technique, people get more proficient in certain techniques, things evolve, right? So like I put it to you like this, if a young basketball player can be inspired by an older basketball player or a current basketball player and add some of those, those moves to their repertoire, right? Yeah. Which is what they will do. Which is what they all do. Then why can't a current basketball player go to the playground or go to the videotape and see something and incorporate some of some of those new things into his repertoire. Arrogance and fear. There you go. There you go. Yeah. Surrogance and fear. And, and see the thing is, see people can, you can't confuse a desire to improve with a lack of confidence. Don't conflate those two ideas. You can't conflate those two ideas. Yeah. Like I'm designed if you had to learn. Yeah. Whatever you got. A lack of desire if you had to learn. Yeah. Yeah. If you got to learn, you got to learn. What did you say? Lack of desire. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You got to have that desire and you have to want to learn. And so that's how I look at it. Like study, study the craft. You can go back and watch every great comedian that ever existed. No reason. Not to. You could go to a comedy club with a baseball hat low and you and your man and you could sit there and watch things that are happening. You could gain an understanding of the current zeitgeist because that's a lot of it too. See art, people confuse, see commercially successful art is about how it connects with the current zeitgeist. Great art in general is just about what you create from the soul and put out there. I like that there's a distinction. And there's a distinction, right. So you can have something that's really, really great. It just doesn't necessarily connect with the, the, the majority of the zeitgeist at the time. I mean, it's not great. Prime example, you just talked about Michael Jackson, the film allowed the music to connect with the current zeitgeist and it took in the quality of the music to care of itself. Right? Yeah. So that's what you're talking about. That's exactly it. Yeah. That's exactly it. I remember. This is so crazy. Sorry to cut you off. We're speaking about back in the day when you started doing television in SA, the late night show, we used to be so frustrated with how the direction of the show was going. And I remember the one thing that you once said was don't you stress yourself, there just don't know where it's going. But there was, there was no clue that you were going to do the daily show one day or host the Grammys. Oh, yeah. In the midst of that frustration, you were like, no, let's just do this thing. Don't worry about it. Just don't know where it's going. And this was, yes, before coming to the US. It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what it actually goes to. And now that you've given me that framing, it's the software. So when I think about like how I process my life, see like your mom and your grandmother said to you, don't do a thing unless it's going to, you're going to do well and not at all. Do it well. Yeah, not at all. But make sure that it's completed. I like it. Like follow through on the task. The thing my mom instilled in me all the time was don't do it because somebody's watching. Hmm. Wow. That's the thing she would always say to me. You know, you know why that's really important because that's how consistency and discipline is built. Yeah. because this is what you really want. - No incentive. - Yeah, yeah. - You gotta do it. - It's different incentives. - Action is the incentive. - Yeah, it's you. - It's a different incentive. - It's about you. - It's something here. - She would walk in and find me cleaning something. Like she would tell me to do, you know, wash the dishes, you know, clean the floor, whatever you have your chores for the day. - That's good. - And then, you know, as soon as she'd leave the room, I would just be. (laughing) - Right. - I'd be like, "Kill 'em." - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And then she would like, catch me. And then I'll, you know, all of a sudden go into like, "Oh, I'm upping mode and I'm washing mode." And then she'd say to me, she'd say, "Yes, I'm done, I'm my child." She'd say, "I hope that you don't think that you should do it well because I'm seeing you." She'd say, "I want you to take pride in doing it because you know you did it." She'd say, "When you finished washing those dishes, I want you to walk past them just every now and again, seeing them in the rack and go, I wash those dishes." - That's right. - No one else. Just for you, just for like, "I wash those dishes." She'd say, "When we're sitting here and the floor is clean, I just want you to have that feeling of like, I clean that floor, like I did that." And as a kid, obviously, you know, there's the chore and I'm like, "Ah, whatever." But subconsciously what she kept programming in me was this idea of the audience. If you allow the audience to define the joy that you're experiencing, you will then be subject to the audience's joy of your experience. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the difference between happiness and joy, right? In a lot of ways, sometimes happiness is like an external thing. - Completely. - Joy is like inside. - Yeah. - You're joyful, regardless. So you can be in the middle. Prime example, you could be climbing the mountain, you know, trying to climb Everest. It's painful, but you're joyful. - 'Cause you're under derest, but you're joyful. You're not happy. You're not happy in that moment at all, but you're joyful. And so that's the thing you got to, and I tell you another thing, you know, you could look yourself in the eyes in the mirror. You know where you're at relative to the things you want to accomplish. - Yeah. - Your eyes will tell you the truth. Just looking your eyes and just, you know what it is. You know, if you know your rank relative to your dreams and where you know where you're at, right? If we're gonna go up that barometer of whatever success or if you want that, whatever, however you look at it. - Right. - When you look yourself in the eye in the mirror, you know where you at. And that's the one that, like, when you can kind of honestly do that and just look yourself in the mirror for a second and just say, you know, you know. (laughs) See, we like to act like we don't know what we are. You know what you are. You know where the you went in. You know when you're backsliding a little. You know when you, you know. - With yourself. - 100%. - 100%. - Yeah, not when somebody's watching. - Yeah. - Just with yourself. - One-on-one in the mirror. And sometimes the person watching is LL. (laughs) - No questions. - It's weird. - It's like under the rest. - I'm not saying just because no one's watching. - Under the rest. Under the rest. Just crocs on with a dabble in the front. Just under the-- - What is it? (upbeat music) - Don't go anywhere, 'cause we got more what now after this. - There was this phase when music was going through, like rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And it was this big debate that people had about me, about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company. Why isn't he going to be the president? It's like in the deepest recesses of my soul, I had no desire to do that, man. (upbeat music) - What did your grandfather think about hip-hop? 'Cause jazz musicians like, you know, you're real these stories. What did he think about hip-hop? - So, I mean, the reality is that I was so crazy. My grandfather was just happy to keep me in the house. - Yeah? - Yeah, 'cause I had, you know, I was riding many bikes and getting head on 'em, my man. He loved, had a mini bike. I got head on it and all that so. - Wait, you one of those kids wheeling around? - I wasn't wheeling, I was, I wish I was wheeling. - Okay, okay. - But I was really just, you know. - I see those kids in New York all the time. I'm like, I wish I was there. - Well, we had, I loved those videos. - We didn't have a mob of them, but like my man, he loved, he had a mini bike and-- - How did he love come, to have a mini bike? - Yeah, how did he get a mini bike? You know, Earl was always like a bit of a hustler, always had a little something going on, and just he had enough to get him a mini bike. And so he's riding around and, you know, he has the string tied to the throttle. He says, yo, you know, I said, can I ride, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. But you know, don't stop at the stop signs, it'll, it'll stall. - Yeah! - Great, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's great advice, great advice. I got an idea, don't stop at the stop signs, 'cause the bike'll stall. Okay, I don't, yo, there's so much to unpack with that. - He loved me so much. - Not that I tell you what I love here. - Yo, no matter where you from, the hood is the hood. - Yo, that's what I'm thinking, guys. - Check out, this is fully, you could tell the story in South Africa and show it to you in the township. And like, people will be like, we know that man, so we know that bike, we know this room. - Absolutely. - So I'm like, how do you think I'm-- - Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah. And I hit, you know, I hit a corner and I'm like, oh, I can't stop, and then I see a car. He said, don't stop, I see a car, so I try to turn and miss it. I'm in the bushes. I'm cool, I didn't get hurt, the bike's a little damaged, I get up, brush myself off, kind of limp home. I left his bike, we went bike, I go in the house, my grandmother, so a few days later, you know the neighborhood. Everybody, oh, you got me, you got me, you got me, you got me, you got me, you know, just the whole neighborhood is just, you know. And so finally, my grandmother, she convinced me, my grandfather being from Barbados, he didn't have a lot of money. He did not, but what he did have, he wasn't spending, right? - That makes sense, yeah. - I have $19, and I'm not spending the $19. You know, it was that kind of a deal, right? So she convinced him to give me some equipment, because it would keep me in the house. So he went, he bought me two turntables on a mixer, and I was able to lean more in the hip hop, because he knew I loved it already. And to answer your question about how he felt about it, he was a very open-minded person. He would take me in the basement and do these real-the-reels, and have me like talking and singing on the microphone where he would play, and so he would encourage it. So I grew up, you know, listening to like, you know, all of the big bands, Tommy Dorsey, Glenn Miller, you know, you know, all, it just anything grew back. Just anything you could think of, Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith, at the Penn House live, and all this stuff. And so he was very comfortable with it, so he was, he loved music. So he was fine with me getting involved with that. So, you know, that's what it was, and I ended up, you know. And, you know, what was really crazy is, I turned professional after he passed away, but before he passed away, he was in the VA hospital, because he was in the Med Corps, in the Army, and so he was at the VA, he, you know, when he, he wasn't well in this latter years, and he used to stare at the, he used to have a radio on the, on the, on the, on the, on the counter there, you know, on the shelf, near the window, on the windows, on the windows, and he would, he would just say, that's taught on the radio. No, I promise you, that's taught, my grandmother would say, gee, that's not taught, he said, you don't believe me, that's taught on the radio. And it was really crazy, and I used to just sit there, and I really believed them, so I ended up naming my first album, Radio, and, you know, that's so beautiful, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, do you think it was just him, believing in something, it's almost like he, something like Eugene, no, but Eugene is very spiritual in that way, I'll say, and like. Eugene, sometimes, I think, yeah, that's my grandfather's name, Eugene. Oh, that's why that threw you sorry, yeah, when you said, my grandfather's name, Eugene. Yeah, his name is Eugene. That's crazy. That is crazy. Yeah, because I said, Eugene's very spiritual, then you're like, wait, what? Yeah, no, this Eugene. Oh, damn, okay, that's crazy. Yeah, so sometimes. We'll experience things or people will experience things that we can't necessarily explain in the moment in the time. So you're telling that story. You know, your grandfather listening to the radio saying, that's taught, that's taught, and some people like, oh, he was losing it, it was the end, it was the. But, but sometimes, man, there's, there's, and I fight this, I won't lie, he knows this, he knows I fight this on at every turn, right. But I can't deny him, and sometimes there are moments and occurrences that make me feel like there's a level or a spiritual plane that connects people to something that we can't fully understand. That might be prophetic, that might be even in that, like, my grandmother, which was 96 years old, the last year of her life, she lived with my mom, they never really had a great relationship when they're growing up tumultuous, you know, love and hate, love and hate here, but the final year, my mom always says with the greatest gift that God could have given her because my grandmother had to be with, you know, my mom, and they stayed together. And so they bickered and they, but what she says, like, they, they got to mend everything together, right? And I used to watch them, they were really like a comedy duo, it was literally like watching a sitcom when they'd be there together, and one of the days I'll never forget is a flew back home to South Africa. I didn't tell anybody I was coming home, and I thought I was just surprised them, you know, and I, I phoned, I messaged my mom, and I said, what are you doing on Saturday? She was like, what? Now I don't talk like this to my mom. So already she was like, you know, she's like, what are you doing on Saturday? She's like, what? I don't know why. I was like, what are you doing? What, what, what am I doing? She said, I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm going to be with the animals and then I'm going to do the garden. And then I'm gonna, what's happening? What's wrong? What are you asking me? I was like, "No, nothing." I was just, I just wanna know, what are you doing? Like, what are you up to in your life? And my mom was like, "Hey, why not, Trevor?" What's happening? - What's happening? - What's wrong? - What do you want? - No, but what's wrong? It was more like, "Well, what's wrong with her?" What's happening? And then she paused and she went, "Wait, are you here?" And I was like, "Where's here?" She's like, "Hey, why not? Stop playing with me. Are you here? Are you in South Africa?" And I was like, "Yeah, I was gonna surprise you, I'm in South Africa." And then she went, "Oh, Tick." Which means, "Oh, God, like, she went, oh, Tick." I can't believe it. She said, "What, yeah, oh damn, you got a good click." She's like, "Oh, Tick." She's like, "You won't believe this." She said, "What?" She said, "I've been fighting with your grandmother for the last week. Every day she wakes up." And then randomly in the middle of the day she goes, "I can feel Trevor, man." When is Trevor coming? - Oh, wow. And then she goes, "He's in New York." And then my grandma go, "No, man." Oh, cool, look Trevor. Like, he's here, guy. Are you sure Trevor's not here? Are you sure he's not like, and then my mom will be like, he's definitely in New York. He's not here and every day. And then my mom and, 'cause they would fight. And you know my mom, you, you remember my mom. - Yeah, tremendous. - She also says things that are so funny, but like wrong if you don't know her. So she says to my grand, she's like, she's like, "Oh, clearly you're already dead." She's like, "No, no, no, but she's exactly." So she's like, "I so feelin' it, right?" She's like, "I so am feelin' it." She's like, "You're long gone." And then laughing about it, she's like, "Yo, man, you long dead." But now she's telling me the story. And she's like, "Yo, your grandma, she said, "Please get to the house." I was like, "Yeah, I'm coming." She's like, "No, get here." She said, "Because you'll make it a surprise for her." I won't tell her. But she said, "But you, clearly she could feel that you." And then when I got there, my grand, my grand, like makes a little joke with me, like when I walk and she's like, "Oh, Trevor, is that you?" I'm like, "It's me." She's like, "Oh, am I dead?" I'm like, "No, you're not dead, it's me." It's me, go, it's me. She's like, "Oh, I thought you're not here." I'm like, "No, I'm here. We're all alive." Yeah, we start chatting, we start chatting. And then she said, she said, "Oh, I knew you were here." Because, "Oh, I'm so glad you came to say goodbye." And I was like, "Goodbye." I came to say, "Hello." And she's like, "No, yes, yes, yes." She's like, "Whoa, but I'm glad." "Oh, I'm so glad you didn't leave before saying goodbye." It felt like he was seeing something that didn't exist yet because maybe he was moving onto it in a way. There's no question about it, man, it's powerful, you know what I mean? Like I'm a big believer in, like, first of all, I have supreme faith in God, but I'm also a believer in, you know, I think people pray to God and I think intuition is God speaking to you. And I follow that, you know, I always follow my intuitive lead. So, you know, you going, your grandmother kind of feeling that and kind of, that's all real. We're all, you know, it's interesting. We're all kind of interconnected in some sort of kind of solar system thing. Like, prime example, just, you know, me and you, Grammy's conference here, like, if you think about it, like, there are certain people in your life that you just, for some reason, they become part of your solar system, right? Like, they, like, you know, and now mind you, some planets are far the way and they take longer to swing back around, but ultimately, you pass, you know, so I just, I just, you know, I think what you're saying is real. I believe in it. I don't, I don't doubt it, you know what I'm saying? I don't, you know, I think, you know, it's funny, especially in the internet age, but, you know, being cynical can sound intelligent, but it's really like cowards, because you're afraid to, like, see the possibilities in the situation. It's so easy to be cynical. Yeah. It's very, it's, it's a much safer, it's cheap, it's cheap. It's safe. Yeah. You know, it's safe to, just, no, cynicism, I'm cynical now, because it, you know, even a broken clock is right twice a day, right? You can't get a stake once in a while. So every now and then you get proven to be right and then you think your cynicism or you've been cynical is the way to go. Yes. Yeah. I just, I don't like living my life like that. Yeah. I think what happens with people is we, we'll talk about this in different ways, but it's also, it's, it's safe because it's externally safe, but it's not internally safe. Oh, without a doubt. Because what you, what, what you're doing is, you're just saying out loud, I knew that life would let me down, there you go. But by saying that it's let you down, it means that you did have an expectation. Yes. Yes. You came down from somewhere. Yeah. And, and people don't realize they're doing that oftentimes when they're being like cynical about everything. I don't, I don't think you have to believe that everything will go or won't go, but I'm saying like it's interesting that you think that everything will go wrong. And I'm like, but just by the fact that you're saying it's wrong means that there was a right and you're not admitting that it has let you down. Yeah. Absolutely. So I've met like monks, for instance, who they have a, not even an opposite view, a neutral view, they just go, it just will be right. That would be, that would be like the view that I would say that, oh, if you, if you just believe the world is, then it'll just be. Yeah. It's interesting that you're, it's all going to go wrong. It's all going to go to shit. It's never going to work. And it's like, oh, you're trying to protect yourself from life, letting you down because it has before. Yeah. That's right. And, and you also got to have the emotional endurance to handle it, right? Because like, I think that's a big one. Things get better. Like, you know, thousands of years ago, there was an ice age, but some of was coming. Mm-hmm. No matter how you think, I remember thinking I told you the monks said to me, one of the greatest lines that has affected my entire life, simplest thing ever, I asked the monk in Bhutan. I said to him, give me one, just one nugget that's hard to apply, but easy to understand. And he said, life is going to be full of storms. A happy life is knowing when you are between storms. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's deep. Yeah. Yeah. That one, that one like that. Yeah. You know what you see it in real life? You talk about watching people? Whenever it's raining, I love to see which people keep their umbrellas up after the rain has stopped. I'm always fascinated by them. Mm-hmm. Hahaha. The Justin Cacers? No. Or even the ones who haven't noticed that it stopped raining. Oh. Oh, clueless. Wow. They put the umbrella up. That's what's raining. It's raining up there. Yeah. It's raining. Yeah. And the rain stops and they keep the umbrella up. Yeah, but that's how that's defense mechanisms, right? People do that in general. But I'm saying imagine if you live like that in your life. Yeah. Exactly. The storm comes. It is a real storm. You've lost loved ones. You've suffered abuse. You've been swindled of your money. You've been fired. Whatever the things are, they are real. They're 100% real. It is a storm. But then when the storm is not happening, you can still live in that storm. Mm-hmm. And it's like, what happened? Stole my money. When was it? 20 years ago. Yeah, but I'm not saying that didn't happen. But are you still living in that storm? Yeah. They let their past hold a future hostage. Ooh. It's like, you know, it's funny. You know, the one that the nugget that I always think is great is, you know, there's two pieces to it. First of all, just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy, right? Right. You just eluded to that. Yeah. And then the other part is, it's friction, right? And friction makes, it makes easy things difficult. And it makes difficult things seem impossible. And if you understand that there's always going to be friction, you'll be comfortable no matter what's going on. You feel me? Because it makes easy things difficult. Yes. Right. So if you understand that there's friction, you'll be able to deal with the, oh, this is just friction. Yeah. I think the reason we don't have that in life is because we don't, most of the time we don't afford each other, the friction or the story of the friction. Wow. Does it make sense? Yeah. So let's say the Grammys, we see the person on stage, yeah, they give us a 30 second speech of overcoming everything and they tell us about, you know, how hard it was, how beautiful. People give them an applause, but it's 30 seconds. It's a lot less time than we've spent listening to the album and enjoying your success and seeing you, you know, with millions of followers, do you get them saying I do, I do, I do, I do. So how do I buy that thing from you now? I can hear it as a story, as a story. But I have not experienced it. I have not seen it. I have not, you know what I mean? People have even seen online on social media do this where they'll post and their post will always talk about their life in hindsight. Like now it's a beautiful picture of them in a relationship, them traveling, them living their lives. So a year ago I was a sad, burdened version of myself, then I'm like, okay, I don't mind that you're doing that. I mind. I definitely mind, you know, why are we talking about you being sad a year ago, man? Yeah, but you're bringing the sadness back. But my problem is, they're not showing it that, they're, they're like, I don't know. The happiness is the permanence. - Yeah, I like real, yeah. - The sadness is just like a glimpse. I was sad, I'm. - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. - Does that make sense? - Yeah, it does. It does. - And then it makes you feel like your sadness is lasting way longer than it should because there's already gone. I don't know, I don't know if I'm articulating this. - Yeah, I think you are. Do you think? - I think, you know, there's a lot to unpack there though, right, because the reality is that, you know, some things are in front of the internet. - Oh, damn, right. Like some things that people go through in life, they need to just keep that in their kitchen or in their dining room or whatever, whatever, you know, is going on, they need to keep that home. And I think people forget that sometimes. - Yeah, I think a lot. - You know, it's like crazy to me. It's like, you know, and no disrespect, 'cause I know the majority of people watching this, you know, before they eat things, I'm like, yo, can we just eat this food, man? Do I need to do a photo session with my filet before we, yo, can I, can I, can we get to this? Like, what are we doing right now? I'm like, it's a filet. - Yo, come on. - Yo, let's eat this. - It's just like it's a filet. - Yo, it's a filet. - It's a filet. - Come on. - Yeah, you know, but it's a filet. - It's a filet. Come on, I gotta take a photo. It's a filet, yo, yo, Larry. - You know, I love it when I learn something new, especially about spirituality and about how things are, I don't believe there's coincidences. I believe that things will happen as they may, or as they should, and you just there to catch the wave when it happens. It's like radio waves are flying around. If you have a antenna, you will catch the station. - 100%. - Frequenties. - That's happening with a thousand. - That's why I was the name of the album, right? Forced. - No way. - It was frequencies of real creative energy. And that was the whole idea of catching those frequencies. That's what the force stands for. Frequencies of real creative energy. And so it's exactly what you just said. - Yeah. - When those signals come by, you just reaching out and just grabbing them. That was the whole thought. That's what you see? How is it, you know, you just maybe realize something. You are the most conscious, but yet seemingly unconscious rapper. No, and I mean this, hopefully, like I hope you take it as a call again, because I mean it as one. It's like, you know what, our heads, when you go like, oh, conscious rapper. - Yeah. - In someone's minds, it's like a certain way of dressing, a certain way of being, a certain way of, and then when you think of chains, and you think of like the diamond earrings, and you think of a different way of being, a different, you literally broke every single mold, and you continue to break every single mold, because I think of you and I go, every single album had a title, and a meaning behind it that could only be described as conscious. - Yeah. - Your music had everything that people can associate with hip hop in a stereotypical way. Braggadocious and out there and aspirational and hopeful. - Good times. - Good times, or the hope of good times, people that, you know what I mean, the celebration of the times that are good, because they're not always, and then one of the biggest ones that I still, I can't think of it not existing because in my head it's always existed. You're like the first and only rapper to think of women as an active audience who are human beings, and not just an object or a subject. - Oh yeah. - Oh yeah. - Hardware. - Yeah, but how did you, let's go through all of those elements. Okay. Where do you think the brain side, you know the brainiac side of your world was developed? Who nourished that? Who encouraged, who encouraged that in your family? - So I grew up, you know, with a family, like first of all my house was full of books, but on top of it being full of books, my aunts were teachers and social work, like all kinds of different, so there was a big emphasis on not necessarily formal education, but learning in general. There was just this, there was just an unsaid thing that we're gonna learn something like my grandfather, back then there was no internet, right? So they had this thing called the World Book of Knowledge. - I remember those. - You remember the world and I remember those. So my grandfather would get those every year, and in fact, I would be reading them, and you know, like that was, so my life was, I was curious. And that was like how we lived. So that part of it, but here's the funny thing with me is like I was like, you know, when I wasn't schooled, so I didn't stay alone, but when I wasn't school, I was in classes for advanced kids, but I had terrible behavior. - Were you bored easily? - Absolutely. - Yeah, that makes sense. - You know, like, yeah, you know, like it makes sense. - You know, they're talking about, see, just to go aside for one second, I think a lot of the problems with schools in general is that they don't teach everyday kids how what their teaching correlates with their real life and how it can be applied in real life. They expect you to just know that. - Yeah. - Yeah, they'd press that as well. Who's ain't teaching us, it's true, you know? So, when they're, you know, talking to me about stuff and then I'm looking out the window, I'm just like, what are you talking about? - Yeah. - And then, you know, in America, you know, like, there's that moment, you know, for kids of color, you know, black kids or, you know, you're sitting there in class and all of a sudden, they start talking about the 19th century in this country and they start bringing up some of the atrocities that took place in all of a sudden, there's this weird kind of rush of embarrassment that goes over you that no one talks about. Because maybe, because if you're, whether even if you're in a school that's all black or if you're in a school that's mixed, depending on whatever the makeup is, no matter what, there's a certain amount of shame associated with being perceived to be too weak to overcome that. - Yeah. - Right? So it's kind of, so when you're in school, it's kind of like, okay, it just felt to me like, I felt like someone was trying to teach me how to be like everybody else and be obedient. - That's what school is though. - Yeah. - And I don't say this to no. - Yeah, but I also don't say this to no. It's in a bad way and in a good way, it's just in the way it is. School is designed for the average. If you're an outlier in any way, school is not necessarily designed for you. And unfortunately, we haven't found a way that it can be because it's mass education. It's such a difficult thing to do. So everyone who falls within its constraints and confines will do well. - Yeah. - If you are slightly ahead of it, slightly behind it, it's over for you. It's just gonna, it's not gonna be made for you. - Yeah. - Absolutely. And so, that's where, so I just, I just got excited about learning around the house and seeing all of these books and seeing all of this information and staring at my grandfather's tennis saxophone and seeing that and seeing pictures of him young who's waving the hair and he's with his band and he's, you know, he's cool and he's, you know, he's got these curls and he's, you know, he's like the swaggering. - Swaggering. - Swaggering, you know, it was amazing. So that's where that came from. And then that, you know, the creative part, you know, my mother wrote poetry and was, you know, played the accordion and, like-- - It's beautiful. - Yeah. - Okay, no, all the pieces are coming together. - No, I'm saying so it was like a real interesting world that I, so then, okay, now then, let's talk about the ladies side of it, you know, because the name, ladies love cool James. That was, that was-- - Man, it was just wishful thinking, man. - I told you. - Yeah, you knew that, right? You did, you did, you did, you knew that, I knew that. (laughing) You knew that, right? - I'm kidding. (laughing) - Can I tell you? - Yeah. - You say that, but I would argue you're looking at your life, everything of yours has been wishful thinking, but it's applied thinking as well. - Oh, I wanted it, for sure. - You see, that's the difference though. - Yeah, and you just wanted, you went for it. That's true, but that's what I mean. - Oh yeah, oh yeah. Oh yeah. But, you know, like the ladies love thing was really simple. I had my friend, my man Playboy Mikey D, and it was like, my man, Red Hot lover, this, and lover boy, this. - Right, right. - All these different, so I was like, you know, and he was like, yo, and I was like, he should be the ladies love, but someone was like, yeah, I like that, I'm gonna be the ladies love. So it's like, I'm the ladies love, he's Playboy, this one's this one, and we kind of just all that vibe, but then, - It was Ruben who shortened it, right? - It was Ruben, yeah, because he didn't fit, he would fit on a label. - It's alright. - You know what I was like, whatever. - Yo, he called me, he called me, he called me, "Yo, glass of water cool yet. (laughing) I just wanna wreck it on me, so whatever you wanna do, let's do it. You know? - Yeah. - But when you, when you, when you created, when you release the song, I need love. - Yeah. - That flew in the face of everything that hip-hop was at the time, the idea of hip-hop, the, because it flipped, you know, if we think of, and the reason I think it's so pertinent today as well, is because masculinity goes through these waves in society, into the zeitgeist, as we talk about it, where people constantly try and confine or define masculinity as one, as one simple idea, one flat idea. A man must be like this, a man, do like this, and we're seeing that again now, in internet culture, there's like a strong urge, yeah, like in the man, and I think some of it is like, some people just say that as like a hateful thing of like men hanging out, so, [BLANK_AUDIO] part of it where I go, it's just men hanging out, there's nothing wrong with that. Yes. But then there's part of it where, until they start playing pickleball. That's not part of the men's fear. And I resent the fact that you said it because I played pickleball. Oh my God. [laughter] Check it out. So, you know, the other part of it is this. It's the fact that, it's the fact that you have men who are only encouraging one side of being a man. I think a lot of what they say is great, you know, be self-sufficient, be strong, go work out, do this thing, believe in yourself, push hard, be competitive, it's great. But I see very few of them saying like, hey, be vulnerable, be honest, be needy, be, you know what I mean? Like find the things that you are also and not just one side of it. So let me, let me. When you put out that song, I need love. Yeah. Come on. That's a thing though, right, so let's, let's look at it from that standpoint of like everybody on the internet, men and different things, the thing you, what you call it the fear, what you mean the fear? Okay, let's call it that, right? Let's think about all that. The bottom line is this, if, if being fearless and courageous is the manly thing, let's say, right? Yeah. Saying I need love in front of a bunch of men who are afraid to say I need love and you're not afraid to say it is the most fearless and courageous thing, right? It's not, you know, it's, it's the exact opposite. It's not like the opposite. I'm still gonna make, I'm bad and mama said knock you out on all these things, but I can make I need love because I believe I need love like that was what I was inspired to say. And I think the most authentic thing is to just be, just be who you are and say what you feel for real. See, the, the problem is when, men running the problems when they start looking to a female looking to a relationship for personal validation and to justify their actions. That's when they get in trouble, right? It's not, I need love is not the issue. The issue is can you need love and still have dignity or are you gonna turn it to just an absolute meatball and just be like stalking someone, right? Can you need love and still maintain your character? Can you need love but still not, you know, turn yourself, lose yourself? Yes. That's the difference and so to me, it's like, I don't think there's anything wrong with masculinity. Like I'm very comfortable with masculinity, I'm very comfortable as a man. I'm also very comfortable saying whatever it is, I feel because that's the most manly thing. That's what I'm saying. Exactly what I'm saying. You know, like, you know, if I, if I want to hug my son, I'm gonna hug my son. I'm not gonna be afraid to hug my son, but I'm also not gonna, you know, come home and cry on my son's shoulder, either, unless there was a situation where I was forced to do that. Right, right, right, right. Right. So I think a lot of the problem, see, I think a lot of times now we're talking about, especially when you get into younger guys and young boys and like, they, you got to build who you are from the inside out, man, because ultimately people are gonna see through whatever it is you're trying to, whatever that facade is, people are gonna see through that at some point it's correct. You got to build from the inside out. So if you're a man, you know, we're gonna know and it's not gonna be because of your clothes, it's not gonna be because of your pose. It's gonna be because of your character and it's gonna be because of how you deal with people. Do you keep your word? When you tell somebody you're gonna do it, you know, like if you, if I tell you I'm coming to the podcast, am I, am I gonna show up? It's like, do you keep your word? Do you say that, what you, do you do what you say you're gonna do? That's manhood, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, you protect your family, yeah, you protect yourself, yeah, you defend the honor of those around you. Yes, you, you make sure you look out for those who are deserving of that in terms of like, like, like, when you're talking about your circle, you look out for those who, whose actions merit. Right, being looked out for, you don't let people manipulate you or make you feel guilty for your own success, right? Like these are things that you gotta be prepared for. I know exactly. You, you help those, if they wanna travel, you help them travel, but they gotta be willing to pack their bags and, they gotta be willing to pack their bags. Right? And so, like, that's the way I think about it, you know, so when I do songs like I need love or when I do any of my music, I don't feel like there are any rules to what we do. Yeah. The question is, is it true to you? Now, 'cause some things are imagination, sometimes it's imagination. You know, when Maul and Brando's in the Godfather, you know, he's using his imagination. Sometimes we create art through imagination. Yeah. It's not always reality, you know, it can resemble reality, but it's imagination. You know, it might be a song, and I've never experienced that, but it's something I imagined or was people watching and saw it and got inspired, right? So that's okay too. But in terms of your life, as a man, it's like, manhood is about just standing on your word and doing what you like, one of the songs on the first album, I said, always keep your word, always paying back. Like, I meant that. You know, like, like, when you deal with people, you keep your word. You pay people back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that matters. That's the stuff to me. Is that why you've spent so much time and effort in this era of your career again, subverting the expectations. Hip hop for a long time, for many people, has been about, I'm better than you. I'm going to conquer you. I've got more than you. But in a good way as well. It was a challenge. Battle rap. It's like you in cannabis, for instance, like when I think of like some of the great defining moments in hip hop, and then now I feel like your legacy has switched to, I'm going to remember you. Like, it's almost like you've become one of the custodians of hip hop to say, no, hey, all these greats, we need to remember that they existed. We remember that they're still here. We need to remember what they did to the game, what they gave to the game. Like, where did that, when did that shift happen? What made you think I need to make sure that every single hip hop artist that deserves to be remembered gets remembered, otherwise they will be forgotten. So Rock the Bells is the company that I do that with. And where it came from is that I saw the shift where hip hop became more about. And mind you, this is coming from the guy who's like the commercial king, right? Like, you know, in terms of being a commercial rapper and, right, like, I'm one of the first guys like a commercial rapper, not just underground, right? But when I noticed, you want to the first crush over. But what I noticed is that it became more about what people have acquired than what they contributed. Hmm. Oh, that's interesting. Right? So you value like I've never, ever heard anybody even speculate a wonder about Bob Molly's bank account. Hmm. I've never heard anybody use that as a way, a metric for how successful he was. That is. Yeah. That ever. Have you seen that? Have you seen that interview? It's funny that you say that. There's a clip of an old interview of his that I saw a few months ago. Oh, that British interview. Yeah. The British interviewer who asked him, he says, Mr. Bob Molly, you've done quite well for yourself. And he's really, you've been sung all of the people sing your songs all over the world. You've done, you must have a lot of money. And then he's like, oh, you rich. He says something like that. And then like Bob Molly replies, yeah, and it's the most beautiful response ever. I'll butcher it if I even try and say, but he basically goes like, he's like, he's like, what do you mean by rich? He's like, rich is the money in my bank account or rich. He says, you meant my experiences, my people, my country. What I'm doing, what I'm experiencing is like, yo, your rich is not my rich. It's so interesting that you just said that. Yeah. And so, and see, my thing is this, look, don't take this wrong. I like to make money. I want everybody. I'd like all the artists to have money. But that's being able to capitalize and monetize a situation like the right brothers did not get rich from airplanes. Yeah. Like, like being able to monetize something is a whole nother skill set, my thing. And it's nothing wrong with it. Don't you? I am clear. I don't want anybody to get it confused. I want people to make money. I understand how important it is for our lives. I come from a background. We didn't have a lot. I understand the importance. However, we still have to remember that they're a great artist who made great contributions to society. It doesn't matter how much melancholy and flash and then made off of the message as a song. It matters from a business standpoint. Of course it matters. Yeah. I think they should get every dime from the record that they were supposed to get completely. That being said, how that impacted society should not be measured by what they have in the bank. We have, we have become a society that has singular measures of success now. If the foreign is about that, you know, like Forbes, for instance, I mean, they do what they do. But it's always been interesting to me that Forbes. really just focuses on people's net worth. And not like, for instance, like net contributions or net value created or net, do you get what I'm saying? Like, how much, how much, you know, how much money did Nelson Mandela? How much is his estate? Yeah. Okay. This man, what he did his, what he did for the world. This example that he set for the world. Okay. He didn't have two billion, three billion. Okay. And so, you know, I think there's nothing wrong with the money. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of great people who make a lot of money. And I applaud them. And I love that for them. I really do. And I make money. I really enjoy it. But I do. No doubt, no question. But Mandela Martin Luther King still meant something. Yeah. He's still accomplished something and touched, well, Gandhi still did something when he marched to the sea and did the salt march. That's still meant something regardless of, you still say, no, I'm just saying it's just, I'm just saying, let's just keep it all in perspective. See, people will go to the extreme and just hate billionaires. I think that's the wrong approach because that's an extreme too. Because most of the people who say they hate billionaires would want to be one. It's not many. There's some, there's not many people who would say, I don't, I don't want to be a billionaire. You know, you got a couple of let us say, okay, I'll take 999 million. But there's not many. That's me. That's me. That's you Jane. I know what you Jane. I know it. I can see it. I can't, it's the br- the bracelet. Tell me you got it in here. You just get, you know, I'm sorry. I don't want to be greedy. Just give me 999, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you sell nice for yourself. Go over there, get you, you know, what you, I like, I like that you say that because that, that speaks to the complexity of everything, right? Is like, um, you, we literally have this conversation the other day. I said, I, I think this is the most quiet of being ever in an interview. I've, I've, in a hang. I've never been this quiet. I feel like I'm, we're, you're recapping our conversations and I'm learning something you, it's just amazing. Carry on. No, so what does, we literally have this conversation. We're talking about the billionaire thing the other day. Yeah. And I'll say to you, Jean, I said, you know, I really, really do wish that we lived in less of a flattened world. And I, I do believe, it's not the only reason, but I do believe social media has rewarded flattening because it's, it's an easier message to get across quickly. And so, you know, it's, it's much faster than nuance, right? We've even seen it online. A clip will travel way further than an interview, right? Clips away more powerful, right? Absolutely. Clip forming. That's exactly, that's what, and that's what society has become. But I go like, if you, if you really think of it, you go like, no, I don't think you hate a billionaire. You, you hate it in relation to yourself. Right. Do you get them saying? Absolutely. So my issue is not a billionaire. My issue is the fact that a billionaire is living in the same society as somebody who can work two jobs and still be homeless. That's where I go. So I go, and I also go, it's not the billionaires fault. I go, yo, you're also part of the system. You're participating in the system. So let's fix the system. I see you talk about things like that all the time, though, just like the way you think about AI, the way you think about the world we're living and the way you pull out of a concert because the workers were striking. I think this was in Philadelphia. And I remember you pulled out and you said, yo, I can't go there and cross a picket line to make money. When these people on the ground, yeah, man, I'm not going to get the money that they're supposed to get to me. That was a moment where I was saying some, let me tell you something. Let me tell you something, man, my grandfather shan shoes. My grandfather shan shoes. My grandfather was a baggage handler. He worked his way. But he then, then he worked at the post office. Then he went back to school to study engineering to try to get better in his life. Like, like, at the end of the day, what people should really look at, I think the question you should ask, or at least one good question is, am I maximizing my own personal potential? Yeah. That's really the question, a good, one good question to ask. Am I maximizing my personal potential in life? Because if you're, let's go back to climbing Mount Everest, if your goal has always been to climb Mount Everest, and every day you're doing the training, you're going in the altitude rooms, you're doing your rock climbing exercises, you're going through all your process, you're learning all about the equipment, the weather, all of that, you're all of that, right? When you walk into a room with the billionaire, you will not feel less than. Yeah. I've met, like, even when we go to the conference, we eat all kinds of adventures, and guys that have went all over the world and do deep sea diving and take pictures on top of them. And it's like, you find out that there are lots of ways for human beings to be fulfilled. But society, for some reason, has decided that there's only one way for you to be complete and full. But what we never seem to care about or ask about is, or at least consider is, what does that person want out of their life? Like I remember a long time ago, you know, there was this phase when music was going through, like rappers were becoming executives and this and that. And it was this big debate that people had about me about, you know, why isn't he, you know, the president of the company? It's like in the deepest recesses of my soul. I had no desire to do that, man. It's just because this person was doing that. I love you so much for saying that. Yeah. Oh, it's like, I, are you familiar with the Peter principle? No, tell me the Peter, I've heard that the Peter principle is a term that refers to. It's something that I find is most apparent in America, but it's all over the world, but it's really apparent in America. It is the concept of promoting people to the point of failure. You just keep like your rise to the level of being incompetent. Yeah, but it's like, but they also put you there. And it's like because society is constantly so you go, man, you're an amazing, yo, you're an amazing rapper. You're your phenomenal artist. You create, you, you, you should run a company. Why don't you run a company like, yo, I'm doing this. I'm doing well. Yeah. I'm enjoying myself. You should run a company. I'm doing this. I'm enjoying myself. I'm doing, you should run a company and then you run a company. You don't like running a company. You have no aptitude for running a company because you don't have the will to run a company. And then the company doesn't do well. Then they're like, man, he was trashed running that company. Then you're like, but he never wanted to run it in the first place. And we do this in every aspect. It's, it's crazy how that principle applies in society. Companies do this all the time. They will take somebody who is, I mean, absolutely the best at sales or something. They crush it. They crush it. They crush it. They'll make them a manager. Then you're like, why did you make them a manager? Well, they were the best in sales. So we made them the manager. Yeah. But do you know if they were a good manager, though, managing people is different to selling. Yeah. Why not just keep them going up the ladder and say, well, there's a, there's a limit. I'm like, yeah, but you, you created that limit. It's an artificial limit that you created. Yeah. And now what you've done is you promote this person to manager. You say they're not a good manager. And then you know what they do? They fire you. Yeah. They don't even keep you as a salesperson. But you know what's the, the piece of that thing that you are good at. They fire you and you go, but I was a sales person. I was the best. Yeah. But you know the one thing it is, you got to know how to say no. That's hard. Yeah. Because when you say no, they make debate. That's hard. And that's what you're talking about. 100%. You got to know, I don't, I don't want to be the president of that. Now, I start, excuse me, I'll do rock the bells because I'm passionate about that. And you want to, and I want to do rock the bell. Yeah. You know, so we have the channel on Sirius XM and we have all the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to do that, though. I didn't want to do that other thing, right? It's like, that's the, the stuff that we, we got to, you got to, that's why you got to be able to say no. That's like in the midst of it. Now, in terms of what you just said, I always think about how people rise to the level of their incompetence. And then you have to stay curious and increase your skill in order to level up again. Oh, yeah. That's hard, though. That's terrifying. In fact, yeah. But that's the, that's the difference, though. Right? That's the second. That's the, that's the 12th rep when you're on the bench, you know, I told you must count. You know, you know, you know, I told you, I told you, you can work on it. It really does. It really does. I told you, I've been telling you, how do I say, how do I say I told you in your, oh, in the first, I said, I don't count. I said, don't count. Don't do that to me. So, but can I tell my story? Yo, okay, do it. And then I will reply. Is it okay if I tell my story, lie, and then I will respond. What I set up, that's like a pizza. No, you just, no, I'm, please, please go ahead. Trevor's like, guys, guys, you guys are getting it wrong, guys. You know, you know what I find, when people are working out, just know when you're working out, just, just do it until you feel that it's happening. Just, just know because this thing of counting guys, people are, people are counting, I'm done so many times and, ah, just leave it. Just have a good time, man, you know. And I said, Isn't that better if you know how many reps you've done? Just like Eugene, just the thing with you, man. You're just keeping scored to just just work, man. Just you know when you're done and your muscles are see, you just know it. He wouldn't say that when the bills is coming in. That's cool. You know what I love about how you painted this false scenario. Let's start with this. Wait, what? Just judging from that story from that story. Where do you think this conversation was taking place? Where does it sound like it was taking place? Sounds like you're in the gym. You see, you see how you lie about, no, it was here. I was here busy pumping. No, the compass in the context is important. The context is important. What I was saying is someone calling you. What's the truth? So no, what I was saying was what I was saying was, yeah, like, yeah. What I was saying was it is not only the number that defines whether or not you have lifted, right? The number is just something that you are using to help you get to a certain point, but the truth is it's the fatigue and the muscle that's defining the growth. So if you fixate too much on the number, you can stay in a place forever because you're not actually asking the question, is my muscle fatigued or not? That's absolutely correct. That is absolutely correct. You know why? Because this is what I was saying. You have to pull your body. Yeah, but you know. You're jelly-lips. Yeah, you know me, you know me, you know me, I love it, I love it. You're right. Don't press anything. We've got more. What now after this? Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went? I can't believe this was happening. Yo, the one that always pops in my head and I've said it before is funny. I saw Muhammad Ali slap marks and buried Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, "Oh, very, oh, very." And I'm just sitting there and yelling, "Wow, right down." I said, "I can't even believe what I'm witness in right now." When you look back at your life, you must have had the most surreal moments you've had, just when you look back and go, "I can't believe that happened to me in that." Like, do you remember a room where you walked into where you went? I saw Muhammad Ali slap marks and buried Gordy while Diana Ross was in the corner going, "Oh, very, oh, very." And I'm just sitting there and yelling, "Wow, right down." I said, "I can't even believe what I'm witness in right now." But Muhammad Ali, buried Gordy, his box is slap marks and Diana Ross, yo, it's crazy. Crazy. I was walking, you know, I was walking Quincy Jones's house and Marlon Brando will be sitting there, you know. It was crazy, man. I've seen some, yeah, it's crazy, yeah. Yeah, you, I mean, that's like famous, like, I don't people use the term fame. Yeah. But like, there was a time when it was almost like Olympus and the Gods. Yes. Oh, yeah. Where there was this space in the clouds with the existence. Kind of thing, no, never exists again. It can't exist again. Yeah. People were inaccessible. There's no social media. There was a, you, you were in that. Is it true that Michael Jackson told you that he was inspired by your bad to make his bad? Yeah, well, he didn't say that, but, you know, that was the vibe. Yeah. Because Michael was notorious for being inspired. Like you said, he would look at the world in the studio with him and all that. Like, it was, yeah, we had a ball. Do you still have those tracks, by the way? No, there's somewhere floating around there in his thing. I mean, honestly, they weren't, they weren't our best, but I think we were getting our footing and, you know, just kind of creating. I mean, that's still, someone has to find it. Yeah, it was, because you see this, this is something I think of as well, you know, going back to talk about like art and the artist. There's the best. Fine. Our best work. We judge ourselves. Maybe someone else judge whatever it might be. But then there are also moments in history. It's like the pen that the declaration of independence was written on. Imagine, imagine if there was a draft of the declaration of independence. And you're like, where is it? It's like, I don't know, man. It wasn't our best. Yeah, but, but that, yeah. That is sometimes more interesting and more important to preserve than the thing that exists because it's like, we know the thing that exists. Yeah, hanging out with Mike was a lot of fun, man. You know, we, you know, we'd be on a plane. It'll be, it'll be me, Quincy Jones, Michael Jackson, you know, Michael Melkin. You know, we on a jet, we talking and vibing and I'm just listening and how old are you when you met him? Man, man, well, the first time I met Mike, I might have been 18, 19, I don't know, something real young. How big was he at that stage? Huge. Like, this is like after thriller. Damn. I mean, he was, it was Olympus. Yeah, no, okay, okay. It was Olympus. So now you're on, you're in Olympus right now. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because, you know, and then we dropped the unbad albums right together. And, you know, just off to the races. Yeah, it was crazy. It was crazy. And, you know, Mike was so, he was a really good guy. I remember going to come in the studio. Sorry, I'm late. There was traffic. I'm just sitting there like, yo, some traffic, Michael Jackson. What was he in traffic? Like, like, all this crazy, you know, you know what I'm saying? I'm just like, it was crazy, man. What was he like to work with in the studio? Very meticulous. Yeah. Really, really, just really smart. And he liked to vibe. He liked to vibe and kind of kick it, you know, talk about music. He was just a really interesting character to tell you stories, tell you crazy stories and all that about. Because I've heard some people say, I remember talking to Quincy once about this. And he said, Michael, like, in a weird way, didn't take himself too seriously when he was with people he trusted. Definitely didn't. He definitely didn't. Like, he knew there was a gag sometimes, then the public didn't know about. But he was playing into it. Man, you know, it was the crazy. I was so crazy, man. I remember sitting there, man. I'm like, we sitting there, like, it was kind of like his office. It was in the studio. And I'm like, yo, I don't know what made me say this. Like, we sitting there talking. Just like just, I'm like, yo, Mike, man, I got a fart, man. He said, what? I said, I got a fart. He said, what? I said, I have to fart. He said, well, go ahead, man. I went, he went, I got a fart, man, my guy on the phone. He was talking about ice cream, we got on the phone. He said, yeah, oh, you want ice cream? I said, yeah, it's going to be on the phone. It's like whoever it was, he was like, hey, hey, guess what I allowed did? Never like. He said, guess what he did? They said what? He said, he ordered ice cream. He said, yo, he was a fart, yo, he was a fart. He knew what he was doing. Yo, Mike was the while out there. He was cool, man. Mike was a good dude, man. He was not, you know, he was a good guy. He really was. He really was. I really was. This is what I think of oftentimes. Like, perspective in all of these situations. No, because you're living in a world where, you know, you hear like, that's a clip farming. That's clip farming. No, no, no, no, no, I think of like the moments, man. Memory, actually. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. The same way you preserving the artists. Yeah. The same way you preserve the memories, the moments, the, the human behind these things. Yeah. Do you get what I'm saying? Like Cozy Jones, like Cozy Jones, he would invite me over, man. And sit there and talk to me about music and life. I mean, you know, you get that he was like James Bond to me. You know, there's a certain people. He had that vibe. Yeah, I got, you know. Yeah, that vibe. We shared the same birthday. So he reached out to me because of that. That was the strangest thing. One of the strangest things in my life. Amen. Cozy Jones has called me and then and then he was like, it's not the same birthday. He was like, he called me and he's like, he says, I heard you a Pisces young man. I was like, I'm sorry, what's happening? Yeah, it's Cozy Jones. Then you're like, okay. It must be because I can't think of any of my friends who can do a Cozy Jones impersonation. You do that, man. And he was just like, he's just like, I heard you a Pisces young man. When you come to say hi, that was a good, that was a good Cozy, actually. And then he was just like, he would nurture you. He wanted to tell you like, he's like, what you can do, how you grow, how you can. And he just shared, by the way, he didn't even have that. Let me school you feeling. No, no, no, no, it wasn't. It didn't come from that place. It didn't come from like some kind of condescending. No, no, no, no. He would, you know, I'd do a lunch with him, you know, a few times a year. Like maybe twice a year, you know, I'd go over there and just eat lunch with him and just talk with him and he'd just talk to me about history, talk to me about music, talk to me about, you know, you know, like he introduced me to Frank Sinatra, you know what I'm saying? When Frank was on his final leg of his run in Vegas, he took me to the show and, you know, introduced me to Frank Sinatra. Like it's like a lot of different, you know, the people I met, he was, he was a really special man. He was a special, special guy. He was a really, he was, he was a, you know, man, he was one of a kind, man. He truly was, yeah, yeah. You just made me realize something that's also unique for your situation. There are many hip-hop artists who could look up to another hip-hop artist. But in many ways, not denying the ones who came before you, there wasn't like a long-standing legacy that you could look to in that way, because it was a fledgling idea. Yeah. But you know what I did, I did, man. Who are your mentors in life? Who are the people you can remember? So Quincy's one of them, you know, but who are the people you remember? Giving me advice? And not just giving your advice, pushing you down a path that you otherwise wouldn't have gone down. Well, man, I tell you, there were a lot of people that I bumped into that were good. Obviously Quincy Jones, Lionel Richie was always the very kind and gave me insights. But then there was, There was rap artists who were a bit older who kind of just would tell me what not to do while they were doing it. I had a few of those. That can sometimes be the most valuable thing. You know, it's like, you know, they'd be like, not the same for you out and save my life. I've had, you know, road managers. There was a time when really early in my career where for about a string of maybe, I don't know, maybe four shows. People for the show, I'd be like, yo, let me just get a little champagne. And you know, I, and I, because I had to nerve, he's going back to me, you know, y'all give me some change. And then I remember the one that was like the fifth show, my road manager, my man Tony Rome. He just, you know, I was like, I had to bottle, and I'm like getting the body. And he came and grabbed the bottle out of my hand, he said, no. He saw where it was going. Yeah. It's not for you. It's the bottle out my hand and that, you know, because that dependency, that's where it was going. And he, yeah. So a lot of it is, man, it's, you know, the man upstairs, it's a lot of luck in this thing, a lot of chance, a lot of luck. I think we put up, we put more emphasis on intellect. We over rotate on intellect and, you know, under weight, yeah, luck and chance and blessings. Like I got lucky with a lot of stuff, right? Like, you know, is that, is that why you, you're so strong in your faith? Absolutely. Absolutely, because I know that it didn't have to be this way. You know, I, you know, I could have been a lot of things. I could have been, I could have went to the Marines and, and because I wanted to be a general or I could have been like one of the, the most notorious menaces to society that's ever existed. So it's like, it's a good thing that it went this way, you know, like, because it could have been, you know, I mean, think about, by the grace of God, you look at my career, imagine if I put the energy in the other way. Yeah. The world would not be, you know, at least New York would have been a very different place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We take that for granted. Like, so it's, it's kind of like that show, it's a wonderful life, the movie. It's a wonderful life. You know, it's a one man can make a huge difference. One man can make a huge difference. So yeah. Well, you have a lot of faith in God because I, I know, like, I know what it's like to, you know, when, when bullets wizzed by and you're hiding behind a snow mound, like an idiot, you're hiding behind a snow mound from a bullet, from bullets, like ducking behind a snow mound and the dudes in the car, you know, like that kind of, so I know, you know, and being in, you know, hanging out with guys and then, you know, dropping nine millimeters on purpose, just to see how you react, you know, loaded gun, just to see, you know, where we at with it. So it's like having all of that exposure too, yeah, um, has made, and that's the other thing about my music and my career because I was exposed to so much streets that fly on the wall, but still exposed to so much street activity. You know, I try to make music that got people like fall away, bro, because, you know, it's like, you know, because from day one, I mean, the things I've seen have been crazy, you know, and you've seen them in a real way. I think sometimes what people take for granted is when I, when I'll read and listen to hip-hop artists who were like then the beginning, depending on where they were in their lives, I find there's like a distinct split between the hip-hop artists who were rapping about what they were experiencing and what they were hoping to experience and then a different generation who now, and I don't mean this like old school new school at all, because it's still applies today. And then you get other artists who sort of like rap about having, as opposed to like what they want to have, and then they also rap about the idea of the thing, but not the thing itself. Like they're not actually in it, but they rap about it as if they are in it. And then you, you see this in the smallest ways, like there's an interview of yours. I remember, I remember reading, it was a crazy one, it was a, what was it, maybe like Esquire one of those, they do like one of those, those quick rapid fire ones. And, and the interview was very flippant with you and it was just like, so who do you think Killed Biggie? Who do you think Killed Biggie and Puck? Your answer was like one of the most, it was so interesting. You answered it like a person who was around then. And you just, you, you're almost like, and I'm reading this by the way, I don't, I don't even think there's footage. You almost like sit up in the chair and you go, you're like, what are you, what are you talking about? So I was like, well, who do you think did it? Well, he's versus West and who do you, and you were just like, yo, yo, yo, yo, you only talk like that because you weren't there. This is not like, I, I wasn't, this wasn't a game. Not a game, yeah. This was a real thing that we were living. This is this thing. I, you wouldn't even ask me a question if you knew, and that's what I'm feeling from you, even when you're talking about these, because you know what, life, man, like, like, I'll tell you, like, it's so funny, and I'm, I'm kind of bringing it, but it's like, this whole process, man, like, I think we just have to learn to be a little more grateful, yeah. And a little bit more comfortable with the idea that things kind of worked out for some of us, you know what I mean, because we get real like, complacent, you know, you can start living in a bubble and start taking things for granted. It's real people out here with real lives and real problems, and it's not the highlight real that the internet is showing you. It's not what TikTok and, and, and reals is showing you. It's like there's a real world out here, and people are going through it. And so if you were blessed enough to escape that, you should be thankful. If you weren't born into that, you should be thankful, but you should always, at a minimum, have some sort of empathy for what's going on in the world. Now, now that empathy doesn't have to ruin your life. I'm not asking you to sacrifice yourself on the altar of martyrdom for everything that goes wrong in the world, because you'll never be able to live, right? But at the same time, you should recognize that, you know what I mean, like, and I just, you know, like, it's so funny, like, now we're shooting, I'm shooting NCIS, New York in New York. Right. It's real different, different edge, different vibe, different, it's like people are probably like, most people are thinking, I ought to probably be the same thing. It's the universe, but it's so different. It's all a little thing, so, you know, let's just be thankful, man. Let's just be thankful. Let's have some fun. Let's be thankful. Let's be glad that, you know, it's us three sitting here, and, you know, I'm the guy from New York, and you guys came from South Africa, and we vibe in, and it's for the right reason. As opposed to us sitting here, you know, we could be sitting here plotting on how to do something bad, you know, crazy in the world, you know, man, with no way out, you know, with no way out of it. You know, you know, like, you gotta be here, like, can I, can I tell you, you know, it's funny, you go back, you go back to the school conversation, but I genuinely do think this, I do, I do think this in society. I genuinely do think this, I always wanted to myself how much society loses by not harnessing the talents and ambitions of the people who end up going to do those heinous things. Oh, let me tell you. I love that question, because see, I remember one time I was, you know, visiting Rikers Island. I was there, you know, because I like to visit and talk to the, you know, some of the inmates and stuff and get them love, and, you know, and this kid was rapping, and he was sound so crazy. He was doing his lyrics. Everything is delivery. I loved it. I'm like, "Yo, man, you gotta do something." And he was like, "Yo, man, I got life, El." So he was on Rikers, but he was on his way upstate to do life. So what am I saying? I'm saying that, you know, you heard that term taking penitentiary chances? No, I'm never. It's kind of like people that, a lot of times, the guys that are sitting in prison or some of the more courageous and the more willing to go for it, group, they just may have been misguided or had the wrong, they need to wise their people around them or need it better. Guidance. I would even argue opportunities. I'll tell you why. And I'll tell you why. Yeah. Because if those same guys, if you took that same personality, that same everything, what you plunked them in Silicon Valley, don't be shocked when they're part of the next big startup. I believe, I genuinely believe it's the same thrust. It's just if I put you in the wrong place, the wrong outcome, it's not even you. So I'm not even saying you need to change, I'm just saying, if I, let's call it the trap, right? Exactly. If I give you, if I give you Legos and if I give you a gun, you're going to probably build something with Legos and you're probably going to shoot something with a gun is what I'm saying. And I don't, you get what I'm saying? And sometimes we make it about the people, but it's like, yes, but what are the things that are around when we find a child playing with certain things? Why do we take- them away. Yeah, we don't go like I'm taking the knife away because I don't want my kid to be a serial killer. He's just like, yo, the knife means the kids more likely to cut someone. No, play with this instead. Because we go build something. This will, yeah, this will create this will, it will nurture it will grow it will. But on a societal level, I, I just go like, man, how much ever we wasted. How do we continue to waste? I always think of it like this. It's like a rocket upside down. Facing the right direction, it can go very high. Yo, that's power. The wrong direction. That's amazing. Yeah, that's huge. That's huge. And you know, I was tell people, you know, you don't rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your system. So it's like, what's your system? You know, it goes back to the exercise thing or, you know, what's your system like? Right? Like what is your plan? What is your workout? Are you being systematic in your life? So when you think about a lot of like, the reason I say that is because I want all of the people all over the world to see the humanity in all people, not just in those who are more fortunate. Because because somebody was more fortunate, doesn't mean they're more human. Yeah. And we, we, we kind of have a tendency to equate success with humanity. We do. And the, the less successful you're perceived to be, the less human you are, which is really kind of strange. Yeah. But it also tells another story, which is that part of being human is maximizing your potential. Yeah. So you have viewed as more human when you, when people perceive you to be more in line with what humanity is, what you were meant to be. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, yeah. Yeah. Using this biological machine to its maximum capacity. 100%. And I think, um, if you think about it, our capacity to love is unlimited, but we limited because of, like you said, fear and expectations and what we think it can do for other people instead of what it can do for us, you know, absolutely. That's absolutely true. Yeah. I agree with that. And also, you know, you know, there's a difference between being kind of being nice, right? Yeah. Yeah. Being nice is like a kind of little bit of a dead end street because you don't want it to, but being kind, you can tell the truth. It's the same as being loving or being love. Yeah. Because when you are love, you are it. If you are loving, you are giving it. It's the action. Yeah. That's the action versus the it. That's the, yeah. When you, when you say the grateful thing, it really sticks me because I think about your story and, you know, when you say like the, you know, it's, it's interesting when you say like the bullets whizzing by. Hmm. Some people hear that and they, they, they think of it metaphorically. Even though it's a real thing, they still think of it as a metaphor from your life, but it's like, like, it's a literal, literal, literal thing. Like, I remember, like, reading your story and I was like, I actually wanted to ask you this on a personal level. I was like, because my, my mom was, was similar in that, you know, my, my stepfather shot my mom, right? Okay. She survived. Yeah. My mother was shot. She, she, she, she survived. And the craziest thing was my mom said to me, you have to learn how to forgive him. Don't hate him. And I was like, this is the crazy. I was like, you know, you need to, you know, yeah. Wow. I didn't know that about you. Yeah. And it, it, it, so you can relate to that more than relate. It did, I remember like reading your story and the parallels and I was just like, I would say it has taken me at least the good part of a decade to understand why she was doing what she was doing, why she was saying what she was saying. But at the time, I just, you, because I was like, this, you talk about you bump into somebody or something bumps into you that moves you in a different direction. My mom like knew in that moment, this thing could bump me in a direction where my mind and my perception and life will completely, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah. Absolutely. You know, you know, it's interesting that, you know, the forgiveness thing is deep because it's like, just because you have the power not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. Oh, damn. And, you know, just because you're encouraged by your emotions not to forgive doesn't mean you shouldn't. And, you know, a lot of times it's, I think we as human beings, we, we, we find it a lot easier. For whatever reason, there's some sort of selfish reward that comes from holding on the pain. Of course. You know, I don't know, I'm not quite sure what the reward is, but there's something, I don't know if it's like, we like, it's almost like we like it. Like we like the fact that we're not forgiving somebody. Yeah. We get a certain kind of pleasure. And maybe it makes us feel superior in some kind of hidden way. I'm not sure. I'm sure somebody out there would need psychologists out there could, could, could unpack that for me. Yeah. The reward to hanging on to anger is, is a satisfaction of being right. Yeah. Yeah. Something in that, in that, in that realm, because if you forgive, you have to admit that you could have been wrong to hold on to the feeling. There you go. That's not what you want. Exactly. I think to add on to that as well, as you're saying that I was thinking it's also, it's also the idea that it sort of makes it mean more. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Because I think sometimes if you, if you forgive somebody, you can feel like it doesn't now mean what it meant. Like so when you don't forgive someone, you go, what do they do to you? What was happen? What happened? I'll never forgive them. They did this thing and it's like, and that explained what is the thing? Yeah. But, but I think it's because we associate forgiveness with letting go of the meaning of the thing. So it's like, you know, like how people are, I forgive you. And then what we interpret that as is, I've forgotten about it. It is now gone. But it doesn't mean that. And so I think sometimes what we're holding on to is, I can't forgive you because then I've lost the meaning of it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you know what's deep is, see, that's why you got to let go and let God because if you're going to, if you're going to backyard and you dig a hole and you're angry at the whole and you put your fist on the whole, it can never quite fill up and heal again. But if you kind of back up off it, the leaves, the dirt, soil over time, it will, right? Yeah. So we have to kind of, we got to let go and let God because in a way, like if you stay angry, then God is like, all right, well, you got that covered because you know, I don't need to deal with it because you, you're angry. Yeah. Nature can't fill the hole. Yeah, you're keeping your fist in there. You got to fill with anger. So I don't need to deal with that. You got that covered. And then when you let go, then the universe can step in and say, okay, let's help out a little bit. Yeah. You know, we can, we can fix that and they'll get, they'll give you double for your trouble. There's one thing you can, you can hold on from the lesson of, of after you forgave, like you were saying, now if you let go, then you feel like you've lost the meaning. But one thing you can keep is the impact. Without a doubt. Yeah. The impact of what that thing, yeah, goes into you and you know what it's all about. I watched this interview. They were talking to a forensic scientist and a person who investigates people who've gone missing and have been murdered. Yeah. And then they were, they were saying without saying much, I can always walk into a field and tell where the body is buried. Then they were like, how? He said, she said, um, if the shrubbery in that one patch is greener than the other parts, it means something is underneath. Oh, yeah. The fertilization is abnormal. She said, the other part is, while when soil is disturbed to insert a foreign object or bio object, it will never be flat again. So the indentation and the, and the debit will always be there because once it was compressed, yeah, yeah, disturbed, filled again, that compression took a long time to exist. You can't artificially. So the grass will grow. When it settles, it'll still. Yes. So when they, when they take a cereal keel that wants to play games with them and once time out of prison, just, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Take them on a drive-about. She says, I just go in the field and I look and I look, those two tell-tell signs have never been wrong. And our lives are like that, I guess. We are like that field that was once, you know, flattened and plain and compressed. Things happen, things get taken out. You know, new experiences come in, a new book, a new friend, a new song, filling the hole, but the debit is still there. Yeah. Yes. But what we do is we put crosses all over the field to remind ourselves of where the debits are and where the bodies were buried. So we always have to remember, you know, and sometimes some people come into our lives and ask us, what made you into this person? And then instead of just identifying the debit in the hole, we become that prisoner that takes them out on a drive-about. And you know, it's deep. And if you think about it and to add on to that metaphor, if you, if you forgive and then you really go out and you go out and you do good works and you go after your dreams, that compression can take place a lot quicker. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it can be back to normal. Yeah. Because, you know, because God gets in it, nature gets in it. Yeah. And then that can take place, you know what I mean? So because, yeah, like, like having things in your past, they don't have to go away. No. But it can be okay. Oh, I like that. And have to go away, but it can be okay. Yeah. You don't have to go away, but it can be okay. You can, you can let go and let God, you know what I mean? Wait. I love this quote. I'm gonna put right as well. He said, "Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet gives to the heel that's stepped on it." Yeah, man. Oh. That was beautiful. And what's crazy is now we in this world where it's like the flip side of that is, I love this quote and I forget that the guy's name to go up, but it's one that you forgot who said it. It becomes yours. Power takes as ingratitude the writhing of its victims. Wait, wait, say that again. Power. So in other words, like, if I step on your throat and you struggle, you're disrespecting me. And so that's what we're dealing with a lot of times. We don't realize that. That's step on your mouth. You bleed on my shoe and you're disrespecting me. And you're disrespecting me. You're disrespecting me. Yo, that applies to so many things in society that I can think of that in like abusive households. I can think of that in abusive systems. I can think of that in like oppressive, like that's a crazy crazy, yeah, to your point. That's a crazy concept. Right. There's a company that's not paying its employees the money they deserve or they're supposed to get the company, the employees say, we're not going to come to work. And then the boss goes, how dare they do this to me? That's crazy. Yo, yo, that's, and we live with that on a daily basis. We live with that on a daily basis, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, it's, you got to know what you're dealing with, man, out here in the world. And you still got to find that thing there. So it's navigating, you know, it's, how have your kids changed how you navigate it? What shifted in your life when that happened? You know, I tell you, you know, it's funny. My kids, I had my kids early in my career, like started having kids early in my career. I lived the same way, like they didn't make change me or not change me. I like that. Yeah. I know what you mean. You know what I actually know what you mean? You know, like I had kids and I love them, and I want to make sure that they're good. But I'm still going to go after my dreams wholeheartedly. Yeah. You know what's funny is, so many parents don't realize that's the greatest gift they can give their kids. Yeah. Because you're showing them what to be, not telling them what to be. 100%. We talk about this all the time, people forget that your kid, when your kid goes, remember when you talked about this even on the podcast, like when you realized you thought that you staying around was the thing that your daughter needed. But then at some point she was like, you know, bro, can you let me, I need to go be with my friends. Like you're holding me back. And you're like, damn, wait, what? Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, right? So you got to put your oxygen mask on in life, you know what I'm saying? Put your oxygen mask on first, then help the person next to you, help your children, you know? And then you're like, what's your relationship to? Yeah. You want your relationship to last? Yeah, you say that all the time. Have some dreams and go after them. Yeah. Yeah. Be sitting around. What you doing? What's your way you going? Why are you going over there? Who's going to be over there? (laughing) - Who's gonna be over there? (laughing) - I'm like the way you said it. (laughing) - I saw your girlfriend story. (laughing) Who else was over there? (laughing) Yeah, man, you don't want to just maybe think of a dog in a car never box at moving cause. But when it's on the when the cause is just like yeah, do you notice that? Yeah, the way you just that's what the way you just said made me think of that for some strange reason. No, we're not crazy, but you know, yeah, that's yeah, because the dogs move in as well. It's like, yeah, all the cars are busing by the car, but it's the cars move in the dog's stationery. Yeah, where you going? Who's gonna be there? - So your girlfriend's story. - Yeah, who else is it, man? - Yeah, when you come, hey, man. Yo, my thing is like, have a ball, man. Send me a postcard, man. Have a ball, man. - Man, we had a ball, man. This was, yo, pleasure, man. Can I tell you? - Thank you, man. - And I appreciate on so many levels. I appreciate it, one, you as the outside figure, the father of a genre like one of the pioneers who created something that we still appreciate till this day. That's why I appreciate you. I appreciate you just as a human being taking your time to come and chill with us. But I also appreciate you as a fellow introvert leaving your house coming to hang out with us. No, because I appreciate that for real. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was this was this was really thank you so much my man. I'm man. I'm him. See? That's how I'm gonna start singing you. One of my favorite things about YouTube is that you never really know where it's going to take you. You know, like, one minute, you're wondering why your computer gets so hot. The next moment, MKBHD and Cleo Abram have shrunk you down and taking you inside your computer. And now you're traveling through the motherboard, squeezing past transistors, moving through the heat sink, following these tiny pathways until 20 minutes later, you finally know what It feels like to be an overheating microchip. I have so much empathy now. Oh, then later on, you're out grabbing lunch. You waiting for someone to finish making their order, you know, quinoa, Buddha bowls, salmon salad with the extra little chips. Whatever healthy thing they've convinced themselves is gonna change their life that afternoon. And while waiting, you remember, you've got a video downloaded on your YouTube premium of Quinn Blackwell trying to feed Charlie XCX. Now you're in Quinn's kitchen. Food is flying everywhere. Charlie's getting hungrier. Quinn's trying to hold the whole thing together and you're enjoying all of this beautiful chaos while somebody quietly assembles your healthy bowl in the real world. By the time your food's ready, they're still going on. So you put your phone in your pocket and in the background, the play keeps on going. It's background play, that's what it's doing. The video keeps going. You listen to the rest of it on your walk back And then at the end of the day, you're home. You've done enough. You collapse onto the couch. You put on Anderson Park's tiny desk concert, and suddenly, he's in your living room playing a private concert just for you and 20 of your closest friends. That's what I love about YouTube. In the space of one day, you've been shrunk down inside a computer. You've hung out in the kitchen with famous people, and now one of the best musicians on earth is performing in front of you. Ah, the joys. Somewhere between all of that, real life kept happening. You had to get lunch, you had places to go. You couldn't always be looking at your screen, but you know what, that's not an issue, my friends. Not an issue at all. And that's why I love YouTube Premium. You can download something for later, but the screen away, keep listening, pick it back up and watch it when you wanna do it. Wherever you are, whatever your day's doing, the experience can move with you. So, if you like YouTube, you'll love YouTube Premium. Visit youtube.com/premium to sign up now for your free trial. Trial eligibility varies, terms apply, cancel anytime. What now with Trevinoa is produced by DayZero Productions in partnership with Sirius XM. The show is executive produced by Trevinoa Sanasiamin and Jess Hackel. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hanna's Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Paddy. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now. (upbeat music)