13. Living beings in organisational governance with Niels de Fraguier

This is developing into quite the series on representation of nature and how people develop different models of speaking for nature in organizational governance. This time I am speaking with Nils de Frogier, an eco-pranor, author, and expert in regenerative business. He's the co-founder of Vivoysis, not for profit initiative, focused on giving nature and future generations a voicing governance. And we are discussing how Vivoysis are going about this work through research, training, and experimenting. And also how business can adapt and become future fit through strengthening connections with people more than human beings and local communities. Nils is also behind the proposal to the French National Assembly, a first step toward extending the representation of nature to the corporate level and make it mandatory to have nature as a board director, shareholder as well as union. Nils, so good to have you here and you just shared that your organization is formally registered as part of this week. Exactly, Pella. Hi everyone, yeah, and Vivoysis is just started. It's been an adventure. We've been on for a couple of months now, but it's officially registered in France and we aim to operate on the European scale, so that's pretty exciting and that just the beginning of something more official, but a work that has been going on for a couple of years now. Wonderful. Congratulations. And maybe we begin by if you would want to make a short introduction of how did you come to this work to founding Vivoysis. Yeah, absolutely Pella, so I like to say that my background is at the intersection of empowerment and sustainability. I had the chance of working across different levels and industries, you know, whether it was policymaking, the NGO sector, civil society, but also business sector on how to actually shape better policies, shape better practices so that we actually include the voices of vulnerable communities and make sure that we actually build a world that is much more equitable. And while I was in the sustainability world for quite a while, at some point I just realized that was time to actually take a step back and look at the bigger picture. And I got interested about the field of rigidly business. That was certainly approximately seven years ago and I co-founded the community that at the end gathered more than 200 businesses around the world from small businesses to mid-sized businesses alongside academics, experts, consultants, indigenous people that advised us as well. And what we've done was actually to try to translate regeneration from theory into practice. What does it mean for a company to transform from kind of doing less harm approaches, which we could call CSOR in some ways sometimes, to actually having this regenerative and equitable vision. And while doing that work, I realized that there were two major issues while the North Star was to become regenerative and equitable, which by the way does not exist today, there is not such a thing as a rigidly company today. I realized that there were two main elements that were actually creating hurdles to lead and transform organizations and our economic models. First one was governance and second one was ownership and property. So that's the way I got into governance kind of trying to be interested about how do we reestablish power so that it's well-balanced, that it encompasses the voices of all the living, not just human-centric governance model, but actually models that include the voice of nature, the voice of future generations. How do we onboard our local communities as well? And how do we make sure that we actually build long-lasting governance models that represent the interests of the many so that we can create economic sustainability, but also planetary health and insist on human well-being as well? Yeah, and obviously all of those things are connected. So I read on your website that you are democratizing access to representation of living beings in organizations to make nature a key player in governance. How do you do that? Yeah, so that's a big question and I like also I would like to start maybe with that word, you know, democratizing. We're in a crisis of democracy, we're in a crisis of institutions, of decision-making, politically speaking, but also within companies and wherever there is influence and power, it's very tough to actually make decisions. So what we're working on with my co-founder, Franz Goh, is actually to create new models that can open up space for deeper conversations for cross-pollination, across industries, across geographies, across sectors, across interests. How do we build new models that actually focus on co-benefits? What is the common interest? Nature can have a local politician can have, a local business leader can have, a local community leader can have. So the idea is how do we focus on that? So what we're doing is like we do three main things with the voices. The first one is doing research because we focus on having this academic and scientific rigor. We work a lot on the planetary boundaries model, for instance, but also the IPBS reports to make sure that what we do is grounded into science, is grounded into research. So publishing reports, open source content for people to realize, what are the best practices? What's happening? We work on experimentation with our due tank to make sure that we can implement new models that we can test out new approaches to governance and make sure that they're applicable as well. And we also work on the funding scheme. I was mentioning before the two main issues of governance and ownership. So we are also trying to democratize nature ownership so to make sure that companies can, on board nature as a shareholder, making sure that nature can benefit, basically from their dividends on the yearly basis, but also making sure that they actually have a nature board member in their governance models. So that's a model we're developing. We're training board members to become able to represent the living voices by having some philosophical, some economical, some rest, some legal knowledge about what does it mean to actually represent nature, not going against the interest of companies, but reconciling the economic need for a company to sustain itself. And also the thresholds of a nature that is crying out for a radical change in the way we approach it, in the way we actually see it and shifting the paradigm from seeing nature as a resource to seeing nature as our best partner and our unique ally on a poll to which everything relies for a economy to actually be sustained in the long term. Yeah. And it sounds, I mean, when you say it, it sounds totally necessary and natural, obviously, but in reality, this is a huge shift. So I'm really curious about like what kind of companies or what kind of organizations are approaching you or that you are approaching to support this nature on the board? Yeah. So the topic first and foremost should be a topic of common interest. I can share a couple of data points with you, but you know, the world economic forum shares that more than 50% of the GDP worldwide is actually connected to the health of nature. 72% of companies are reliant on natural ecosystemic services and that's the European central banks that says it. You know, 7.3 billion are invested against nature every year. That's the IPvS that shared it on the last IPvS report on biodiversity and business. So what we see is that there is a common interest in actually taking care of for whatever creates value in our economy. What we need is actually the mindset shifts. We are touching a bone, a topic of power, of ego, of decision making, and that's for the complexity lies. The fact that nature is not doing well, that we are as humans are not doing well and will not do well because nature is not stable and it's not cared for. It's pretty obvious and I would say that everyone kind of knows it. So we need to also democratize the access to science to making it intelligible and understandable. That's one point. But beyond all what we need is mindset shifts. So what we do is also accompanying leaders, also informally, so not necessarily publicly with new governance models, but also finding a way for them to feel more safe and more secure to get into these topics, to reconcile the interests of their shareholders. the interest of, you know, their own kind of leadership skills and abilities and recognition, but also reconcile the future that will live for, you know, future generations because that's also a question of reputation and trust towards communities. So that's what we're doing and when it comes to practical examples, I can share two main examples that we usually share. There are many more, but one is Norse. Norse is the first company in the world that actually invited nature on the board through a proxy with a vote right, but also a veto right. I insist on that the veto right is not to block the company's activities, but it's more to create a deeper consensus by giving more power to nature. It actually helps the board to take more time in deepening the issues and looking at the medium to long-term strategies. So not just by passing kind of the short term idea of we do that and that's going to be a tick boxing exercise and that's going to be so, but actually looking at the long-term trends. So that's what they've done through the proxy and they created also a nature shaholder fund where they gave away 10% of their capital to a trust fund. That can be one example and a fact. And what do they do? What kind of a company is Norse? They're into digital services. They have approximately 800 employees across different continents and you see like they're working on data centers. They are also questioning their integration of AI tools. So you see that it's a company that is deeply and you know, inherently kind of connected to nature because they need rare materials. They're using laptops, you know, they're using a lot of water through the data centers, a lot of energy. So there are big questions when it comes to that and actually if you're interested in this company, they have some reports about what it means to actually lead incorporation with nature and all the value it creates. So Norse can be one example. So it's kind of a small mid-sized company, but we also work with Veolia. Veolia is a multinational company and we just help them incorporate, collaborated on creating a future generations council. So with Veolia, we created a council of 30 young leaders, below 30, 15 internal members that are from the company as employee and 15 external that are expert in diplomacy, in finance, in carbon and whatsoever. We put them together, we create this new space for dialogue and their invitation and their mission is actually to co-create solutions that can reconcile economic viability and positive impact and they work alongside the CEO of Veolia. So they work with the worldwide CEO, they connect to the board, they connect to the XCOM as well to actually pitch their solutions, working on new solutions for the cost of inaction, for instance, working on new governance models. So we see that this type of governance models are emerging, whether it's for companies, but also for NGOs and foundations. What we see is that there is a greater need not just in the private sector, but in many across many sectors to actually have this voice of the living, you know, of the unborn generations of the current youth, of, you know, the elders of nature that actually speaks through a common language that actually can reconcile all these challenges of our time and make sure that we are also moving from very, you know, unstable performance to actually something that is much more robust, something that is much more resilient, where actually systems within companies, within organizations are able to drive whatever the external conditions are and welcoming also the interdependency to local ecosystems, communities and whatever happens around the world these days and all the uncertainty that we need to embrace. Yeah, I find that, I mean, the complexity that you're talking about is actually one of the key things in including the voice of nature into governance is that we currently, when we don't acknowledge the voices of more than human beings, we become really unsophisticated in how we organize ourselves in this world. So it's really to embrace the complexity that's there, but that we have denied is kind of a key point. So what do you think like what's needed to be a speaker for the living or to represent nature on the board? What do people need? What tools do you develop? I mean, you mentioned to make science accessible, but what else do you, how do you train people? Yeah, so on the training that we've actually created, it takes five days and then we have a community of nature board directors that we actually train on a regular basis, give them access to our scientific committee, give them access to new research, put them in touch with each other as well to share some experiences and ask questions to each other. And in the training what we do is basically looking at the different ways of defining and considering nature, whether it's a human centered approach, very anthropocentric, whether it's an animist approach whatsoever. So like the different philosophies of nature is something that we touch upon. Then we look at legal rights for nature. So what are the different rights that exist within companies, within the environment, within nature? What does exist as a legal framework to actually defend and represent this interest? We also look at the economic elements, so how to quantify and measure impacts when it comes to carbon, when it comes to biodiversity, water, different species, different areas. We look at the question of risks and insurance, which is a big thing as well for organizations now to quantify risks and therefore to mitigate the risks and adapt. So we look at different elements into that, we look also at the poster. So what does it mean to be a board director? What does it mean to be a board director that speaks to represent the interests of nature or to speak in a way that actually does not create gaps and divides but rather bridges. Different board members to actually become the greatest allies of this common interest that everyone asks for the company to prosper and to kind of look at what do we build a momentum around the nature elements so that it brings some value so that we actually look at new ways of leading and doing. So we look at all of that and the idea is to train our community and help them get into new board positions and make sure that they can actually operate while keeping a close connection to academic partners that we have at Vivoices to communities of companies and organizations that actually share the knowledge and make sure that it's a human experience as well. Something I need to mention is that our belief is that the nature proxy in itself is not enough. So usually what we recommend for our best practice governance models is actually to have one proxy or two within companies within boards but also for this one or two person to be equipped with what we call a high council for nature which is composed of different experts that can actually help on demands so that can be one or two proxies and then the group of people that are experts in science that are experts in accountability that are experts in decision-making whatsoever to make sure that these persons are not alone sitting in the board but actually can rely on a great wealth and diversity of expertise. So is that something you provide or do they gather that for each organization like is it specific for each organization? So it's specific for each organization and each organization as its own needs but what we provide organizations with is actually a network of expertise. So we actually have a form of directory of the nature board directors that can be available and deployed within boards but we also have a list of experts that we can consult or integrate for this high council for nature to make sure that actually we simplify the process and that we can really ask the organizations we collaborate with to actually deep dive into the mechanism into the structure into the model of governance to make sure that it's robust that is well-fout that is well-intentioned as well so that we actually operate as a third party to make sure that what we do with companies is actually fitting with the highest standards of governance making sure that it's not superficial but it's that's something that is truly embedded into the decision-making systemically changes and reinvent and improve the robustness and the resilience of models so that's our role at the voices is to build bridges create this coalition that put itself in service to actually the flourishing of future fit organizations. It sounds amazing there must be so much learning going on in that process I mean in all directions right? Yeah absolutely so much to learn and as I like to say you know we are gathering all the pieces of the puzzle we are not the one solution we're gathering all the pieces of the puzzle into one room to make sure that everyone can coexist can co-create and co-implement as well making sure that we source knowledge from different parts of the globe you know there is so much we can learn for instance in this relationship in between the global north and the global south there is so much to learn from different regions of the globe so that's what we're trying to do is to be the melting parts for. these people that believe in the shifts of mindset of systems of decision making to actually unite and create something quite unique that truly transforms our system and go back to the root causes of the issues we face. Yeah. And do you have something to share around how does it affect the work of an organization when you introduce these processes? Yeah, I mean, there are many ways that it impacts it. I would say for the better in a sense that it actually helps organizations kind of zoom out and understand that they are part of something bigger. So they understand and can map out their interdependencies to supply chains, to local communities, to the economic systems. So that helped them realize, oh, embedded, they are into this nested system that we call our economy. That's one. That's also an invitation to rethink the different notions of capital. You know, we focus merely on economic capital, but what about natural capital, what about social capital, what about community capital. So the idea is also how do we create new forms of measurements to actually understand and evaluate the way we produce value as an organization. So that's the second one. We see a lot of changes in reputation and trust because by involving different stakeholders around the table, it means that we are recreating a space for dialogue. And I think one of the greatest challenges of our time, we're talking about democracy at the beginning of this conversation, you know, is to rebuild trust, is to rebuild conversations, is to agree that actually a healthy debate is always worth it is necessary. There are these three elements and then there are many others, but it really helps to kind of grounds and reconcile these notions of economics and prosperity when it comes to health of our systems, of our people, of our planets, to make sure that we understand that the interest is the same, you know, by having a healthy planet and healthy people. We will create a healthy company or an healthy organization. So it's to also put back together all the pieces that we tend to divide and understand that, you know, rather than they are being very weak in times of crisis, will actually be able to plan ahead and become future feds and adapts. The curve is to be done by all businesses and organizations, the curve of change, the curve of adaptation of mitigation. The key question is when and how. The when is as soon as possible, we know that the cost of inaction, you know, is much greater to that and it will become tomorrow because not acting to them means actually having a higher cost tomorrow. So the question is when and the invitation is to do it as soon as possible while taking the time to do it properly. And the how is like, you know, if you build the new CSO or policy or whatsoever, that can be useful, but it still remains superficial and it's not encored at the core of decision making. At the core of food you are as an organization, as at the core of your culture, at the core of your vision, at the core of what you drive as a positive change. So by doing that on the governance level, it means that you anchor that that you work across the verticality of making sure that you're lying, but also the transversality of making sure that everyone that is around you is actually a stakeholder that has a stake in decision making and that everyone feels that they belong to the same journey of change as well. And that's I mean, depending on your boundaries, that's really difficult because everyone around you is in a system that is degenerative, right. So this is also, I mean, it must be all it sounds natural and easy when you present it like this, but it must also be difficult. I mean, how what what resistance and what barriers are there? Yeah, it's difficult. I think it's, you know, as you say, the system is so intricate, it like connected and like it's very difficult to move apart, but what we see is that more and more organizations are making space for that because they realized how much tension there is and how much they've built upon the legacy of this connection, this connection to suppliers, this connection to local communities. And they actually understand that the value out there now is in rebuilding this link. So from an economy of predation of extractivism and all that, we need to build an economy of relationships, relationships to our clients, relationships to our investors, relationships to our local communities. And that's what we need. So I think the main, the main barrier or the main tension in general about this topic is the question of power. It's about, you know, giving back power not just into your hands, but giving it back to a range, a range of people that is quite diversified, but that will also help you kind of get out of your biases, you know, as a leader that has been leading on its own in a closed door office, you know, it's very difficult to sense the reality of what's happening in the field, what's happening to your local cook or producer, you know, what's what's their daily living conditions until you integrate them into the decision making to onboard their views and the way they think it's going to be very difficult for you to realize what it is. What it is for your community leaders and your clients, potentially to be affected by climate change on a daily basis and the way they can actually afford your product or services, that's a big question, you know. So that really helps you to bring around the table this reality and sends that, you know, while the world is globally connected, you need to root your thinking, your decision making and your approaches into the local implementation of what's needed in the field. So there is this element that I like to insist on is the element of reciprocity. We thought reciprocity, we cut connections, we cut relationships, and therefore just a top down approach of, I am creating something and I'm pushing it into the market. But that's not how the market will become resilient, that's now how the market will keep on actually affording your product or services in the short to long term. So that's very important to rebuild this economy of relationships. So taking on this task of representing nature in a board of an organization, how does it affect the people doing that, the individuals doing that work? Does it, does it change them in any way in your experience? I would say that rather than doing it that changes you is more the process of embracing that role because it's a journey of transformation, because when you learn how to represent nature, you definitely learn much more about science, about the reality of the world, you know, about the planetary boundaries, about the key challenges. So I think what transforms the most to people is actually the journey to be equipped with the right tools. And as I said, you know, it's a never ending journey. It's a lifetime journey that requires a lot of humility as well. We're in a world where in an era where having answers is valued because it's considered as power and knowledge is power. But you know, there are so many things that we are unable to know and that as a single person wouldn't know on our own. So there is also this humility component that is very needed and that might be also one of the greatest learning is the humility in front of the beauty of life on this planet. It's we are very little and we we've yet to understand and to analyze and to predict everything that's around us, you know, we know very little. So this humility is might be one of the greatest takeaway for our nature board directors. And I think in the role it's a huge responsibility. It's a responsibility to actually, as I mentioned, reconcile the economic part of an organization can be sustained and funded while also reconciling the interests of living beings, integrating the world perspective of life on Earth. So I think it's, yeah, it's a humility and responsibility that go hand in hand. And I think one nourishes the other and vice versa. And that's really where we see the greatest change in individuals also leading through these roles. It sounds when you present it, it sounds like a journey towards wisdom actually. There is a lot of wisdom. Yeah, I mean, wisdom is an important port and what I like to say is that there is always something to learn from each other. So it's not just the nature board director that's going to share his or her knowledge. It's actually I come back to the world and the concept of reciprocity. It's true, this collective intelligence that actually will learn from one another. And the wisdom is the wisdom of the crowd, the wisdom of the comments, the wisdom of history, but also the wisdom of what the future will look like. That's the reason why we need to bring this intergenerational perspective. That's the reason why we need to redefine what the generation is and that's something that I'm working on. I'll be able to share more with you on that, but I put together an article of a new definition of what the generation is. And if a new definition of a generation actually includes humans and non-humans without making distinctions of age, you know, it means that we are all on the same planets. It's the well swimming right now in the ocean, the tree that is in front of your house, the newborn that was, you know, coming to this planet yesterday or the elder that is in his 90s today, you know, we're all part of something. And that means that if we are just one generation, we share the inherent responsibility to actually act upon the crisis we face. That means that that's the wisdom that that's the wisdom of the diversity, this cognitive diversity of all living beings, that to get a form of something very unique, but something that we tend to forget and not to recognize and not to value, unfortunately, which is the reason why, you know, this governance that includes living beings is so necessary. - Yeah, and I want to just try to understand, because so you have this very elaborate thinking and you develop it with like-minded people, like the first movers, people who want to be in this field and want to explore something that isn't that common and that is also at odds, often, with the current system. So I know that you have also been part of changing, making institutional change in law, together with several other organizations you have developed a bill for a representation of nature in companies that was recently presented to the French National Assembly. Could you tell us a bit more about that? - Yeah, sure, so we put a corporate bill proposal, a couple of months ago in collaboration with several organizations. And the idea was to bring this concept of nature as a decision maker within the institutions. So what we did is elaborate this corporate bill proposal upon three main points. The first one was to have nature in the union representation. So in France, you have what we call the social and economic committee that bring together different empires of the companies. And basically what we wanted to do is have trained elected representatives to actually represent natural ecosystems and respect planetary boundaries. That was the first element. So nature in the union. Second one was nature as a board member to actually propose the introduction of a representation for nature on the board of directors through the appointment of two independents, directors that would represent the nature. This would depend on the size of companies. So not targeting the smaller companies, but making sure that some organizations and companies that are big enough with the points to independent directors. And what we added on top of that is that it would be mandatory. Absolutely, absolutely. And what we've added and it's important to mention it is that actually these two board directors that would represent nature would be appointed through the actually selection of legal entities that are recognized as being in the public interest. So making sure that these directors are first appointed through the appointment of organizations that are whether having academic credentials and environmental issues or being like purpose-led common interest organizations that would then appoint these people to make sure that there is a safeguard as well when it comes to personal interest and avoiding any forms of corruption and whatsoever. So that was the second one. And the third element was nature as a shareholder. So kind of having a way for nature to become a shareholder, even with just a few shares, but making sure that nature through different proxies can actually be part of the general meeting of shareholders and actually make sure that shareholders that in general lack effective means to influence the company's environmental strategy can be challenged, can be supported as well to improve the nature elements and making sure that the interest of nature are represented. I mean, that would be such a huge step. Would it go through, oh wow, what's this? But I mean, where is it now? What's the status of this and what's your prognosis? - So as you might know, the French politics are a little bit in the transition phase. We have the presidential election coming in a few months. So the bill has been put on hold for now, but it's been actually shared publicly. So any single citizen can access it on the website of the French national assembly. So what we're looking at now is actually doing some awareness raising and advocacy to make sure that we can build up a momentum towards next year that can actually help this bill be much more on the media, which has already been the case, but kind of pushing for that. And making sure that actually it creates like a form of belonging for wider groups of people, organizations to actually rally behind that and make sure that nature becomes a proper stakeholder that we value and that we invite and that we listen to. - And what responses do you meet so far? Is it, I mean, yeah. - So far, I would say like, you know, the skeptics or the skeptics are skeptics. Like, and we won't change that and that's fine. But what we wanted to do is to, you know, a bit like you might know about the overtone window, you know, you need to push for new subjects for them to become the normality. So that's the way we see it is actually bridging the gap in between kind of, you know, the theory and making it very practical because by putting this corporate bill proposal, you know, we're getting into practice. Doesn't mean it's gonna be implemented tomorrow, but we're moving towards something that legislatively speaking can be integrated at some point. So that's our goal. And when it comes to the players, you know, we're having very interesting conversations, not necessarily public, but actually of people that are getting interested about that. There are some small debates about some details of the proposals, but in general, I would say that the reaction is pretty inspiring and pretty positive. We've just got to kind of reconcile kind of the short term public agenda of, you know, the political context with kind of the long-term steward chip vision of this proposal. And it's really, I mean, just bringing the proposal out there so that these conversations are being held is kind of also a key thing. Absolutely. It's a first time thing in Europe, if I'm not mistaken. So, you know, that's a big thing. And we try also to see that as an example, as a milestone for other countries and other leaders in the space to actually bring it to their parliament. Help them with that and kind of build a coalition that is, you know, Europe and whites to make sure that this becomes part of the public debate, whether or not it's implemented tomorrow. The idea is like, how do we talk about it? And then our goal is for sure to implement it. But even if it's in the midterm range, you know, we need to go for that and we need to open up the debate and start talking about it for it to become the new normal. Yeah. Wonderful. So, wrapping this up, I suppose that you mentioned that you have a European scope for your organization. And what would be your advice like for people or companies that are interested in this approach? What would be the first step? Like, where would they go? I suppose that you are open for conversation, but you have any advice like, yeah, how do you begin? Yeah, I mean, the first question is the why? Is like, why do you want to appoint or to have nature or living beings represented in your organization? This is not a marketing thing. It's a change as I shared and as I will keep on repeating a change and shift in mindset. It's a shift in culture. It's a shift in valuing what truly matters. So that's a long process and that takes time as a leader, as an organization. But I think the first question is really the why? Why are you doing it or why would you like to do it? Then for the how, there are many organizations or a few at least that are expert in that. And we are part of them and we are happy to have conversations and kind of understanding the needs. There is no one-size-fits-all model. That's the reason why we exist also to help organizations ask them the right questions and reflect about what they need to do. Share with them some best practices. We'll publish yearly reports as well. That will be open source about the best practices which will be available on a website and through different partners. So I think the first art is the why. The second one is having conversations and kind of exploring where you want to put living beings in your governance models, what type of power, what type of structure, what type of legal elements do you want to integrate to that? And then getting inspired by other organizations that have already done so and that are already benefiting. Understanding better the impacts it can create. - I have a question now that I should probably have posed earlier, but it's one that I often meet. It's this question about if you want to represent nature, well, how do you know what it wants to say? How do you respond to that question? - That's, I come back to the point about humility, the humility of not knowing everything. You know, we can speak on behalf of nature. You know, like who is the legitimacy? That's a huge question. So that's the reason why we bring all that knowledge together into the same room to make sure that we actually reduce to the very minimum, you know, the mistakes we could make, but also keeping humility as a compass in the role of nature board director, for instance, make sure that sometimes there is no And that we rely on scientists, that we rely on community leaders, that we rely on indigenous leaders, that's a key question. And that's what we put at the center to always give this humility of saying, "Hey, are we good enough? Are we enough? Are we legitimate to actually represent nature?" That's so beautiful. I mean, I love that. Humility isn't that when we become human also. We have humility, and that's where how we connect to the humus. All of those words are connected, isn't it? It's a way of being grounded. So Nils, thank you so much for your time and for your work, and don't forget to celebrate now when your organization, which is obviously working already, but it's formal status just recently. Thank you so much. Thank you, Pa. The rights of nature is hosted by me, Pellatine, and produced by Friedrich Arrestov, Music, Nightjar, by Cosmoschel Drake. Embrace your entanglement with life, and follow the exciting development of human law aligning with the Great Law. Don't give up. Give down.