Today's episode is sponsored by Tamarack Home Brew Supplies. You won't stop shop for hops, grains, yeasts, and all the other gear you might need to brew something worth drinking. Dave Donnelly's been taking care of us home brewers in Southeast from Massachusetts for years, and if you haven't checked him out yet, now's the time. Head over to TamarackHomeBrewSupplies.com and get brewing. And while you're at it, Red Hand Brewing is right down the road, and I have it on good authority that they have an epic tap whistle. So go get some. Anyways, let's get on with the show. Welcome to Beyond IPAs, a podcast dedicated to New England's amazing craft beer community. We appreciate you joining us as we converse with the incredibly talented craft brewers who craft up that liquid poetry that we love so much. As well as the many interesting people that are part of our craft beer community. So sit back, relax, and join us as we enjoy our fine local craft brew and learn a little something. All right, part two. Part two. Part two. Very French. Part two. All right, quickly do a round the table. I see Kyle's drinking the same beer. You guys have another first flight. Yeah. Very good. Well, you can't go wrong there. Yeah. And now I'm going to just quickly say I am having a kettle head hop guillotine. Very delicious. Can't outs on point. It is a guillotine that's crushing a hop head. Perfect. Yeah. Let's move on. We talked to Kyle. We were there was the the our field trip. That was which was let's this quick like August of like those. And I still to this point out that that was I so mad Dan that missed that like it was the it was the it was what a great day that was they was it was price. Let's process that I mean spend the day with Kyle spent the day with Sam and in the kettle head go through the brew process Sam was gracious cooking the the brewery was the brewery was closed on the food. The pizza is the he brought the shit out. I'll never forget Kyle you will behind the fucking bar. You're just making concoctions. You just making drinks. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was priceless. And you walked into his his hop cooler and you were like I'm not giving. Oh, just just angels appeared. Yeah. It was like going on to snort it. Yeah. Floating. You guys talk to Willow that day too. That's right. I know. Yeah. Apologize to Will a Scott will apologize to will we never published it. I don't you still have that recording. I. You have to maybe lock you. She was so shy. She was. She was. That was probably what three years ago. Two years ago. Oh. I went to do the club with every. Interstate connection. She was probably like seven or eight. Yeah. Probably. Yeah. Two or three years ago. That was probably the best beer you ever made. Kyle. Cause we were involved. I mean, you should do a you should do a club with beyond IPAs put our our little logo on your can. But anyway, all right. Let's do it. Episode two. Kyle Hume. Putt do. Mm hmm. We we tease it. I want to talk to you about current conditions. About where we are in the market. Are we on craft beer? The landscape. All that good stuff. The challenges craft brewers have anything else we want to talk about guys. So we want to hit on. I'm going to ask about his. Brick and mortar. He was talking about the end. We'll see where we are. Cause it is a question that comes up a lot. Yes. Brian. What do you see going to see it on the Facebook group? When you open up above. Yeah. Yeah. We'll get to it. Yeah. We'll see reasons why. Yeah. And I think it leads nice from the conditions of the market to. Yeah. Things have changed. It's been a few years. So we talked about it. We talked about the challenges of brewers and we talked about. THC Celsius. We talked about regal Celsius. You know, high news, whatever it is. Like millennials. What are they doing? Like, I still to this day, we'll go out into trillium or I'll go out into, you know, somewhere in the city. The pact. People are in. In Bruce. Sure. We've also seen the change of what they're offering in breweries, Celsius, mocktails. You don't call it what you want. Vitamin C is done. Others are doing it now where you just, you could have vitamin C. You get a 13% mixed drink now, you know, mocktail. You know, what I don't know what they call mocktails are usually not calling. No, but no. You're talking about RTDs ready to drink cocktail. Yeah. But even that, like, you know, so you think about trillium, trillium makes canned, canned RTDs, you know, ready to drink. Yeah. I've had that bourbon that way. That's really good. Actually, the wake robin. So that is, that is, this is a lot to untie there. Like, but I think it's in Kyle, I'll look to you to see, you know, what you see as challenges from your point of view. But a lot of the big brewers anyway are stepping up and having to make a celtzer or their offering celtzer. We even see Harper Lane, Harper Lane, half that they have a celtzer. Gluten free, right? Shut up, shut up, shut up. Like, they all have them because you have, for you to bring, for me to bring my wife, or, you know, you need to be able to offer something. So, so Kyle, what do you see as challenges from a guy that owns a brewery, you know, you contract brewing and we get it, you know, you don't have brick and mortar. But still, those challenges exist and you're in tune with the market, you're in tune with what's going on. What do you see in as like challenges that have come up over the last year and looking forward? Like how is, how people going to survive? How craft brewery is going to survive? So that's a multi tier. Yeah, it's a question. So like, yeah, so I mean, if you, it sounds like what you're speaking to are please pay people with like physical locations. When you have a physical location, you, we're not, we're not 10, 15 years ago where like people were going to breweries for beer. We're now in a kind of position where we need to appeal to a group of people where not everybody in the group is a beer person. And back in the back in the, we'll call it back in the day. Yeah, you used to bring in their group. The air quotes and you'll always find a beer for everybody in the group. You know what I mean? It's like, oh, we've got something for you, right? And you don't, oh, well, maybe you don't like this, but you'll like our light logger because it's a lot like blood light. Yeah. You know, something like that, right? But we've moved on to a time where people are more aware of what they actually want and they're more desiring a craft experience. And it might not always be beer. So that's where that's where the RTDs and the other things have come to play. And having a tap room right now is so difficult that if you don't appeal to all the consumers and you're only appealing to beer drinkers, it won't bring in enough to keep the lights on. And I feel like personally, this happened with COVID. So I, you know, I've told this story several times and COVID taught people that, you know, you could also stay home and you could drink your beer there. You can go to the store and you have your friends over. I did that. You all bring a four pack of beer and you get, you know, you all, now you have these multiple beers of all great breweries. You get to share them all night. You're in a safe space. You get to decide what music's on. You get to decide the atmosphere. Interesting. No one has to leave at a certain time. So there's no like forced DUIs, things like that. You're able to control your night a lot more. People were taught that, you know, you could stay home and have just as much fun as you were going out. If not more, and you spend half the amount of money. So now, if you're not offering something that they can't get on their own and do by themselves, no one's going to go. So you have to really appeal to the entire group of people, whether it's offering RTDs, wine, THC, cellars, a wide variety of beers and something that drives people in, like you're not going to survive. I mean, it's terrifying out there. It's so interesting. Like, even to expand just outside of consuming a beverage, you see breweries doing yoga classes. You see breweries doing run clubs, right? Anything to differentiate themselves, right? And how to draw people in. It must be so challenging to come up with something that's different. It's not like they're empty. Every time I go to one, it's amazing. And so you put it at the trivia too. So we went and we didn't do a podcast. We went to Harpalein just to talk to Mike and just kind of chill. And we came upon a trivia contest. And it was packed. There was people there that were just there for the trivia. And the trivia. And so that's what you just hit on something real hard. So they pay for these people to show up. And you'd think, oh, wow, the place is packed. But then if you really pay attention to a lot of these events and this sucks for the breweries, you'll see that half the people are drinking water. Well, I didn't look around and know seven. Harpalein they were. They weren't drinking water beers. Maybe they'll have one. But again, when we talked about it. >> And it's not enough to justify what has been.
and paid to bring in the event. - We may be not. - It breaks even. It's gotta be so hard. I feel so much for the place. Because yeah, I see places that have like goat yoga. And like the wild little kids. - The puppy yoga. - The brakes, you feel it. It's tough like that. And that's so cool. But then it's like, you also have to make sure you're like gearing your events towards beer drinkers. And it's gotta be so hard because it's such a risk. I mean, I can't even imagine having to add that. - There's a lot of challenges in it. - So paying attention to like making sure you're putting out a quality product. And then at the same time, it's like making sure your employees are paid and the lights are on. That's so much. - And then the food aspect too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Because everyone wants that full experience now. They don't want to just go to brewery and just have beer and a snack thing of pretzels, right? Oh, does that brewery have food? Does that-- - Sure. - And so you have to think about that. It's such a-- Like every time I do it, that music is their outdoor seating. - Yeah, right now. - Is it amazing to me? Like it's amazing to me. And that's why I say it all the time. I am fully, like my money will always go to craft growers. Like it just will. That's just where I am right now. 'Cause I just the blood, sweat, and tears that that goes into it. And it was funny. So I was in, where was I? I think it was in Rochester, New York. And the brewery slips me right now, but I was surprised to see they offered us THC drink. And it was 0.5 milligrams. Just a small amount. - Did they make it or was it-- - Yeah, it was probably five milligrams, right? - No, I think it was even smaller. I think the rules were, like it was a brewery. Like I think the rules were different, but they could sell. I think it was, it was 0.1 or 0. Like something smaller than what we know as the legal, available dose to say, the open public, right? And I talked to, I talked to the guy, I said, "Wow, I said, "I don't see that mass yet. "Maybe it will." But he says, "It's amazing the people "that have come in since we've offered it." And it's not like, you're not gonna walk out of there high, but it's just gonna something to something else-- - For them to drink. - To consume. - So they're not. - Yeah, just something else, 'cause if they don't like beer, whatever. So we talked about it, it's Celtser, THC. The challenges around THC, like I say it all the time. It's big of a craft beer drink or I am. On the weekends, I don't, instead of having eight double IPAs, I'm drinking four on a Friday night, and then I'm gonna finish it off with maybe a 10, 20 milligrams Celtser. Now, those are challenges, right? Because now all of a sudden, well, with me, it's different because I have a buying problem, not a drinking problem. I'm still gonna buy it. It's just gonna sit in my free. But it's funny that those are definitely the challenges, like changing market. - Sure. - And I see it all the time. - That's still, what's so impressive about treehouse, dude. I mean, sure, they have their coffee and their RTDs, but think about their locations. Every location they have is an experience in and of it. I mean, that's sandwich location. Get the fuck out of here. - Yes, absolutely. - You don't even have to. - Scott would have no idea. He said, he has a face. It's literally happening. - You don't even have to have to like, beer to enjoy, just go to one of their locations. - And they have lobster rolls at the sandwich one. - Yeah. - And the deer field one has like world-class concerts. - I've been to some fan, and it's run better than the big venues, like Xfinity Center, Mansfield Hartford. Treehouse will not only have it run better, but it'll be organized better. The parking will be better. The experience will be better. The new lines will be shorter. - And the beer's better, but-- - And they're on a golf course. - They have a golf course. - Yeah, they have a golf course. They have the place across from the track and serratoga. I mean, they've got the place. - It's nice and you have a cost in that. - The credentials, yeah. It's nice when you have money. - What the, what is it? - They have the resources to do this shit. - But, why do they? - They really do. - Why did they have the resources? - Because they were early in the game. - Because they were smart. - And they were smart. - They've made good decisions, right? They were strategic and they made good decisions. - Well, all decisions are decisions. It just happened for a while. - They turned down. They turned down. - Yeah, they were-- - When you make the decision, it may not be, you don't know it's good. - Yeah, yeah. - You can't deny, though, that even outside of their beer, like their business is wrong. - Their business, so-- - Yeah. - Yeah. - They're so smart. - I mean, every move-- - Scott, when they make a move, they make it where it seems like it's about the consumer. Even though you know it's not, they still do it. And it gives the consumer something, but they're still benefiting from it. - Oh, yeah. - Everything it do is, it's so impressive. - But even all the hate they get, because they do get a lot of hate. It doesn't matter. - Oh, they don't give a shit. - It doesn't matter. - No. - They're like going out because every time you say our name, we make another call. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm like, how much is that? - Any exposure is good exposure, right? - That's right. - It's amazing. - We can't deny it here. They're doing it. - Yeah, we went into Red Sucks game. Was that what it was? - Yep. - And we made a point to stop it, prudential, we went down into the parking lot, and we were like, let's drive by and just open up. - Let's see this. - There's like the in and out rain. - 30 spots dedicated to tree house. You pull up. - Wow. - Then you go up to the main floor. They got a booth, a kiosk, right? You put your order right in. Then you go around the corner, you pick it up. - I did it the next game I went to, or went in order. - It's fantastic. - It's fantastic. - And then they have the in the summer, they have the outdoor beer garden, where you go and they get the movie screens, and they have the handles, and they serve in five tree house beers right out in the atrium. - Yeah, they make it fun. - For 10 bucks a pop, for a beer. - But that's what you said, like-- - But that's what these other breweries need to do. We'll call them regular. - And it'll get there. - And there's other houses on another level. - Yeah. - But they need to offer something. That makes the experience even more than-- - Creativity. - Just about creativity. - It's crazy. - It's just about drinking. It's so wild, but to like, I don't know, man. - And in trillium, so trillium's a step, like the, the can trillium is, it's a fantastic destination. - It is. - Go there, the pizza, the food, the outdoors. They have, any in the summer, they'll have the oyster truck from Duxbury, right? And it was a island creek. And the serve and oysters, they have a Mexican drink. - Again, they have the money. - I get it. Well, they have the money because they made right decisions and they make the beer. - They make the beer. - They're the and they make the beer. So I love it all. And the others, they're grinding. It's happening, they're doing. And then you have, you know, we talk about all the time. We lose black, had a single sample. They will always survive because they have the local following. It's amazing, like how does a screw brew survive in rain of rain? - Rain of mass, screw brew. Kevin is a wonderful human being. - Yep. - Is this beer? - All of a sudden, those breweries. - Yeah, like you always think. - Like out our way, it's like, oh my God, all these breweries are closing, but how is such and such? How could they still be open? I mean, serious, if you have their beer, but it's their local, the people that can walk there. - Yeah, the people that support their community. - And they do enough, they do just enough. They do just enough. - I mean, that's the whole thing, right? I mean, that's cheers, right? That's how everyone knows your name. - It's an English, an English problem. - It's a thing, yeah, right. That's where it all started, you know, in some of the places that's been-- - And they're not gonna become millionaires, but they're gonna have a good time doing what they do and doing what they do, do what they love to do, right? - Yeah, that's what's gonna happen. - You should always be after a goal, you know, the right way to go after a goal is for the passion and the love of doing it. If you're only goal in doing what you're doing is to make money, you're never gonna be successful. The most joy and feeling of accomplishment and success is gonna come from doing something you love. - Absolutely. - Because in that moment, that's where you're not thinking, that's where you're feeling all these emotions, all this like thankfulness and good. - And you put your passion into it, right? - Yeah. - Because you love it, right? - That's worth more than money, man. - Sure it is. - And it always will be. So if that's where your heart is, - Oh, that's what we tell our kids. If you can do something you love, you know, you don't really work a day. - You don't work a day, you don't work a day, you don't work a day, you don't work. - And it will happen on its own. - Yeah, the money will follow if you're providing value to someone. - No, that's why, like I say it all the time, that's just why on a Saturday, you know, when the wife's working, I'm going out to support. Like that's just what I wanna do. And I feel like, you know, all right, yeah. This past weekend was, I did it. - I still need to hear about this. - What did you talk about? - It's just, it's not good. (laughing) - No, it's fine, it's just, anyway. - Did you get arrested again? - No, no, no, no. I just need to, I just want to do that. Like to me, 'cause I know they're grinding. Like it's so challenging, 'cause most of them are working, no, like trying to keep a brewery afloat, but they have day jobs, right? - Yeah, right, yeah, for sure. - So I mean, but let's talk about, I see a hoodie there, you know, and it says rogue. How the fuck did rogue brewing close? - I know, I know. - Did you remember how big a dead guy was? - It was not really big, but it was sought out. - Oh geez. - So this is not, this is not rogue brewing, but yes. - No, I know, I know, I know. - But you're mind you don't. - But that happens to tell us just,
- Just two days ago, right? - Yeah, within the last week, yeah. That is shocking. Rogue put out so many good beers and so many different styles. That got me. - But overextended though. They, I think they, they wrote the wrong, they wrote the lightning and they were so big and had to be that big for so long. And then. You just think they, they went to pull back. - Yeah. - They couldn't sustain them. - They didn't follow the sales. They should have pulled back and kept it going as if it needed. - That's what, so it could be just because they, that style, the style, they were, they were barking, they were banging on a consumer that would have their beer just out of nostalgia. - Stology, I think. - Gotcha. I understand. Yeah, they weren't dropping like New England's. They were, they just kept going and going and going and going and it was like, this doesn't work and they kept going and going and going. And then it just fizzled out. - Yeah, it just, you know, what's interesting. So that's the other, I mean, the challenges that breweries have, like we've seen in the last year and a half, we know for a fact that across the country, more breweries are closing than opening and that never used to be the case. So financially it's challenging, I get it, whatever, geo-economics, call it what you want. I understand it's a problem. But it's the challenges that are put in front of these, of a craft brewer to sustain and be able to sell. Right, you need to make good beer, but I just, I don't, so the consolidation recently, whether it's warm town or whatever, I don't damn me, you know more about it than I do. Like as far as like, how are these, like Mayflower got bought by Cape Cod Beer, right? - Right, yeah. - So Cape Cod kept them afloat. And I love Kyle, you've said it too, like Mayflower Port, I think about Mayflower. I always want that beer. - They always make great beer. - Their rotational IPAs that they started doing in the last year, two years. - The four, five, it was good. - Yeah, 398, 399 and 400, like the celebration of, you know, a plumeth, right? Solid beers and they kept on making them. So how does that happen? Like how does it, and so Cape Cod buys them up and they become part of a conglomerate and in warm town and watch you sit. They, why buy, does it help with distribution, does it help with retail sales? Like what's, help me. - So there's, there's, there's burrs, so there's embev, right at the high end. And then there's the, I'm not low in. I don't want to call it low in 'cause that's disparaging too. - Guys like Kyle, right? So there's the, there's the craft area. - Big and small. - And there's the area in the middle. And the area in the middle changes, depending upon the market dynamics. - Where, so the middle can exist for a while, except when, when the market changes and all of a sudden, if the craft beer industry changes and the guys that are small can just serve their local pubs and do their things and like guys like Kyle that just say, I don't have brick and mortar. Can I do my thing? Fine, and they can just go. - Successful. - And then why guys, right? - Started to try to climb the ladder and didn't make it high enough where the guys that made it high enough were like the worm towns and they start to get bought up and those guys make their money and they get consolidated because they have the brand, right? - They have the brand and they're selling in retail size. - They're probably right, selling retail. - Yeah, tap points everywhere. - It's about size. It's about size, right? When you get high enough, it's about size. And what happens is, when things get squeezed in the market, now the guys in the middle, they're the ones that get absolutely effed because they're not big enough to get bought. - You can't plow through the ceiling. - And you can't, so I can't go that way and get bought and get bigger. I'm not small enough to just serve the market. Now I've overextended myself and then I fall out. It's a weird, why would Cape Cod be here by Mayflower? - Because they just, they're trying, they're trying, they're trying, they're trying, they're trying to get to that next slide. - Because they're in the middle and they have one choice. So they can't get smaller. So they have to climb the ladder to get bigger and try to go that way. - Yeah, man. - That's the initial, and it depends on the price too. - It's much on that. Yeah, so you say price, I think that it would be coming larger and producing larger volume as a whole, whether it's due brands or not, would probably cut down on material costs. - Exactly. - It's a deal by the price. - Yes, it's a deal. - It's actually. - Yes. - So even can costs. - Makes sense. - Across the board, you can knock down the pricing for now two brands that maybe just need that little bit to kind of, you know, make that margin work. - Exactly. - So when they do come together, you now make enough to make it work whereas if you stay step right, you're both done. - Exactly. - That's my point about moving off. - Yeah. - Because you move off. You have to find ways to make it work and make to a cowspoint. All right, so we're buying this hop at this, but if we combine, we can negotiate. - Yeah, because of the scale. - It's cost of scale. So it's not even that you're being bought by like conglomerates. You start to start to combine forces to do those types of things. And if you're that size, that's the problem. If you've crossed the threshold to a certain size, you have to go that route. You have to. - Yeah. - Especially if there's a market. - That's why so many breweries turn to, they become part-time contracts. - Exactly. - Because their own brand, they'll die as what they are. But if they bring in contract brands, the area that they used to make the money out, they can now make up for by producing this other person's beer. So their numbers don't change and they still keep to keep. They still get to keep their brand alive. - So it's interesting. So I'll bring up a counterpoint to that, like Dorchester Brewing. I thought they were doing fine. Like maybe it's location, I don't know. But they had seven or eight brands that were brewing in Dorchester. And then all of a sudden they up and shut down. So it's probably at the end of the day, the cost prohibitive. I don't know. It's a trough. But just to know, so I flash this can because, so I'm in Kaila, I'll ask you if you've done this. So I'm drinking a coastal mass brewing tail fin. And I do think it's one of the most simple, impressive can arts that I've ever had. I love the color, I love the tailwind. Now, when you're going to start bringing up coastal mass brewing, right? It used to be Chail Marker. - Yep. - Chail Marker, yeah. - Yep. And that's a cost to trademark your brand, right? - Mm-hmm. - Did you do that? Like is that like-- - Oh yeah. - Yeah, you have to, right? Like I was gonna say, like I feel like, and we talked about this, I feel like they didn't, maybe it was a step that, or did they feel like the stainless was more important? And they just didn't have the money to do it when they started running out of my mind. - That's what it was about. - You're overthinking it. - You're overthinking trademarking times? - Well, so this brewery down in Florida had a beer called Channel Marker and the brewery, yeah. - You know, you're not sure. - You're not sure, so-- - No, 100% in terms of the positive. There was a brewery that had a beer called Channel Marker. And they-- - The brewery actually trademarked a beer? - Yes, a beer name. - Name? - Yep. - So like, it's like-- - It's interesting. - It's $1,000 to trade. - It's trading on the good. So that's shocking that they would trademark individual names. - Or the challenge it, right? Like, you don't have to trademark it, but if you challenge it, when you trademark, they put it out the window. - They put the window on the window. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Does anyone have this? And they say, I have a challenge. - Yeah, that's-- - Yeah, that's what happens. - Yeah, it happens. - I don't have a ton of details on it, but I do know for fact that that's the reason. That's what happened. - But it was like four to six months where you're allowed to-- - Yeah. - And you have to watch mine. - And they have this weird network if they broadcast it out like-- - Yeah, everyone. - You get an email every week, yeah. - Yeah, I tell you. - Do you, are you sure you want a challenge? Do you want to challenge this? Please? Oh yeah, so it's funny. But, you know, fortunately for them, coastal mass growing, they kept the CMB and they still make creepier. So it's-- - So wait, what do you drink it? You're drinking what? - Tailfin, called tailfin. - All right. I switched over to Sierra Nevada's Northern Hem-- Northern hemisphere harvest, wet hot 5P8 2025. - Ooh, yeah, any good? - Oh, it's great, Brian would hate it. - Whoa. - I knew this is Western shit. - I know, this is foreign, I mean, it's more like a numbing. - It's like a numbing. - But I would say, like, I think this is the time of the year for the fresh and the wet hot, right? That's, you always see it come out in like the fall. - About one. - Yeah. - The harvest day. - About a little like a girl. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a month ago. It would be for, you know, the West Coast, for sure. I mean, I--
They say, "Fidings did it recently. "Fidings released Jasper wet hops. "They did a few wet hops, fresh hops, you know." - If you're getting it's delicious. - Yeah, definitely. - It's getting from anywhere like, you know. - But it was frozen fresh hops, which I still think is, we tried to-- - Frozen fresh hops. - Well, I think we tried to do-- - I don't think-- - We tried to get it, remember we tried to brew it, and clogged up the system, I don't think so. - I wonder if you've brewed fresh hops. - Yes, yes, fresh hops have to be used in the brewing process within 24 hours of harvest. - Yes, so I don't know what they called it. I eat as a home brew, it's impossible. - 'Cause you just block the system. - You just fresh hops, it's like, okay, cool. - Dude, it won't fuck up your process. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - It's cool. - It's just that. - But that's how you learn it. - I've done it, and immediately everything's clogged. - We have one of those plate exchanges for the heat, though. - Oh, it'll come out. - And it was like, nothing's coming out. - That's coming out through it. - I'm like, it's jam with hops, dog. It just wet hops. - And then you gotta like disconnect it and reverse. - Yeah, so we have to do it. - And then as soon as you clear it out, you reconnect it, boom, it's clogged. - Yeah, you take it out, you bake it in the oven. - I think it like burn it all off and-- - Even if you use the little bums little bags, it's just-- - Oh, no, oh god, no. - It's funny, that's funny. We tried it. - It's worth it. - Well, we had hops. - That's it, that's it. - Again, that's fun. - We were growing up. - So, our neighbor grew, he's like, I'm gonna grow hops and grow hops. - That's 'cause whatever. - He wanted-- - He put up, he like had the ice giving him with excavators, and put in telephone poles, and put up a line. - Good for it, oh yeah. - It was good. - In one line, and he's like, this is the greatest thing. And we tried it grew and it was a disaster. - It's a disaster, it's game. (laughing) - Like this is great. - Like I was using those, I started using those mesh steel kind of like tubes that you get on screen. - Yeah, I saw, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. - And I mean, they work, but dude, the character was so demanding. - But the problem is, you need the liquid to get, like the liquid doesn't cross, it doesn't cross across the, it's happen. You need the liquid, the surface here to hit across. - Absolutely. - So Kyle, you made me think of something, like, loople in, cryo. Are you doing any of that stuff? Or like, what's your thoughts on that? - Yeah, it's a cryo, quite a bit. - And I mean, oh, you know. - Just 'cause it's so exciting, explain to people what it means, like use cryo. Like, you get less hops, more flavor, like what the hell? Help me out here. - So cryo kind of gives you all this stuff that contributes to flavor and aroma without the plant material. Which can be beneficial on hops like, we'll say mosaic. - Yeah. - It has a tendency to cause more clarity issues and drop out in New England IPAs. It's very advantageous to use the cryo versions later in your process, because you'll still get the character of mosaic without the negative effects of it affecting the appearance of the beer. So, cryo's cool and it jacks it up. You get more bang for your flavor. - Punchier. - Yeah. - But there's also, you know, as with everything, there's pros and cons. You know, if you go all cryo all the way through, it's not going to taste this full in pure body, right? Like you do need plant material. - Yes. - You just have to choose what hops you decide to get to head from. So it's like, you never want to do all cryo. There's a percentage out there that floats around. I think it's like, you're not supposed to exceed. I'm gonna guess like 30 or 40% of your total hop bill should be more than that of cryo. Otherwise, it becomes maybe like a little thin and stringent kind of in my experience at least. So, but yeah, I mean cryo, it's kind of cool. And then there's like hop hash and hop oil and all these like crazy ass things. - And so what's, what's lubellin? Is that just another, that is the part of the hop? - That is the part of the hop that you write in the beer. So how are you, how are you concentrated whether it's oil or a cryo or whatever you do? That's the piece of the hop that you want to pull out that piece. Yes. But to Kyle's point, it's interesting. The vegetative piece and just adding to, if you just do like an oil or a cryo, you're missing something. - It just feels like it's, yeah, you're right. It's just empty in a certain way. - Interesting, that's weird. Oh, it's just creativeness. Like again, it's just like, I love-- - We'll try on an air. - Yeah, that's exactly what it is. It's like the science behind it. - Have I done an oil cryo, of course, at home? But then I was like, what the? - Yeah, there's something wrong here. You know what I drink it up, like, there's something missing and it's like, it's hard to put your like, you know, you can't really put your finger on it, but then like as you break it down, you're like, oh, okay. So plant material is important, but it's not necessary for all of it. - And not at a full hop level at a pellet level, right? 'Cause like, they take, they, it's not, the pellets are not the hot, they're, they're mashing down and to a very concentrated level at the pellet, right? So there's something in between like, between non-pellet, like cryo and don't, you don't need the, I don't need to add, well, you could add enough full hops, but it would take massive, massive amounts of pops to do that. - To get that, yeah, because when you get the cryo, it's like, it's like condensed flavor in a room. - Exactly, and even at the pellet, the pellets more condensed in the fully popped. - Yeah, the cryo pellets are crazy, as you probably see where you like, you basically can touch it and it'll just like, into like powder. - Dude. - As opposed to like regular pellets where they're more like, like, it looks like a, like a bunny pellet, like, like, I feed this to my rabbit, like, yeah. - Yeah. - All right, for sure. - One, so we'll, we'll probably close on time here. Let's get there. - All right, so another newer style that is out there and I know some other breweries have dropped here recently, is a cold IPA. - I have it today, right? So I don't, like, help me on a cold IPA. - So cool, yeah. - The still around, like, wow, I feel like it's kind of like, we're like, it just made one. - Yeah, it just cracked one. - Really? - But I feel like, - Oh, yeah. - So it's a cold IPA, help me, Dan, well, what is it? - Yeah, what is it? - What is it? - So, Kyle, correct, we have found wrong. L means AL yeast. Cold means they're trying to, - So that's an AL? - So it's an AL yeast. - Okay. - But they've brewed it, like, they're trying to make it like a logger. So they're trying to make the AL yeast operate at a cold level. - And it becomes more of an A. - I don't think they could call it a cold AL if they used a logger yeast. 'Cause that's the difference. - So, so I think, I think when they posted it, that they said it's more of a west coast. - Kyle, Kyle, I'd end up the year of breweries' cost. - Yep. - So the cold IPA's I've done, do use a logger yeast. It's basically an IPA that's more of a logger yeast rather than an AL yeast. - So you brew, you use the logger yeast, it's warmer than you would for a logger. - The ones I've done were at logger temps. - Ooh. - Okay, interesting. - But style, recipe, IPA. - Yeah. For sure, with dry nothing in the whole deal. Because it is hazy if you look at it. - I don't know if it's involved. - Yeah, it might have. And so if I look at the, - So that would explain the taste I had in that beer. 'Cause I had that beer today. And I'm like, (mimics a - So yeah, there's a lot of things. - And then maybe we need to get-- - The logger yeast, but yeah, fermented at a bit of a-- - We need to get Ryan on the podcast. - Yeah, 'cause there was something in the taste. - That was-- - It's a science-pandit. - I'm like, uh-huh. It was, there's something in the taste that was, I couldn't put my finger on it. And I think it was logger yeast, a little warmer. - So it's an IPA brood of logger yeast, outside of logger yeast temp for making it normal. So it's warm, yeah. - 'Cause it's still cold, but it's not loggering. - It's not like, you know-- - And they go, they go in aile cycle, like two to three weeks and taking it out. - Because it's warmer, so it rips in from a-- - Exactly. - It cleans up, yeah. - That is very different. - Yeah, it's, it's a whisper. - It has a very warm finish. - This is some last-- - This is something in, there's something in the taste. I'm telling you, it's-- - But those have been around for more than a decade. I didn't realize people were still doing it. - Well, I don't think if it's still doing it, I'd maybe it needs to come back. - I actually like the way they're doing it, 'cause the ones I've had before were, I could tell, where alias try, they're trying to get it to operate at a lower temperature, so that takes a ton of nurturing. 'Cause like alias, you drop below a certain, you drop below 62 degrees, and alias start like not working up. They don't work, they're like, I'm tired after that. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, for sure it's exactly, yeah. - What's interesting,
And we talked about the style. - You already got to shake the shit out of it. - Yeah, you get to. - And please, please, please. - So we talked about this, like, why not try to do something or bring something back or try to do something different to try to, like, separate, like, introduce something else into the market? That's very interesting to me. And now, and I think, and if you look at the description, he said it was probably more of a West Coast style, but I'm like, I don't get the heavy moths there at all, and I'm not supposed to. - No, it's not. - But it is hazy. It's not, it's not really clear. It's interesting. - It's a style, like, bitterness-wise. - There is, there's something. - I do think it's a lingering bitterness at the end. - Exactly. - Is something I'm telling you, something. - We need to, Ryan, Ryan, we need you to explain this to us. That's interesting. That's interesting. - It is, yep. - 'Cause I wanna like it, and I feel like this, - I'm playing with a lot of cool stuff. - I feel like this attributes of it that I do like, but it's confusing. - It's like expectations. - It's a mind-fucked, yeah, what about, yeah. - It's a mind-fucked, it's really, it's taken my mind and it's just, - Just now? - Thrashing it. - Just fucking having it's way with it. - Like a fucking gold-stow. - A gold-stow. - Like a white-stow. - A white-stow. - A white-stow. - A white-stow. - It is such a, it is such a mind-fuck when you sit down. - And you're drinking a thick stout, it's white. It's just clear. It's just, what is going on? - Yeah. - But the flavors are there. - Again, it's not, it's not about the color. - I know, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, - Explanation. - Right, that's, that's why, you know, I've so much to drink. - The blind, the blind. - The block that we're, so. - No, not in the block too. The Harvard, the Cambridge, Cambridge Brown, they went out of business recently, right? - Oh, they just, they got purchased in the last minute. They won the blind taste test for like five years in a row with their one IPA, and they're going up against the big headers. And I think the blind taste test is phenomenal. I love it. - Yeah, me too. - We should do an episode on that, right? Just put, just blind me up and fucking, let me see if I guess what, what I like. So much, so much I want to talk about. Anyway, Kyle, awesome man. I love it. - You have a lot of fun in. - You, thank you. - Keep on being little willow. Tell willow, we said hi. - That's the surest. - Get that fucking neilist. And I don't want to get into your knee and your adventure seeker that you are. But, yeah sure, put that, yeah, put it on. - Yeah, put it on Kyle. - Yeah, you know, Kyle, stay free climbing. I don't know. He's got another surgery. Yeah, he knows, this guy's crazy. Anyway, Kyle, good chat. Love it, love it all. Keep on doing you, and I'll keep on giving you my money, and I will enjoy the fuck out of it. Hey, although I do want to wear a mansion, 'cause I knew you posted it. Year end, you're doing year end kind of like, you wanna know what, what a merch drop, whether you want people to know. So find little willow online, find little willow on Facebook, tell them what you want, whether it's class wear, whether it's, you know, tats or shirts or hoodies, 'cause I've got it all. I don't, I don't want to take a sweatshirt. I don't know if I have, I do have a sweatshirt or shirt. - Yeah, I do. - All that stuff. - The shirts one of the best shirts I have, outside of my 19, my, yeah, 1970s, that's the 10-year-old, - The 10-year-old, the 30-year-old. - The 30-year-old shirt that I have on the, I love, I love brewery shirts, get a little willow, but give them feedback, 'cause it's gonna be dropping it soon, you wanna figure it out now, right? - Yeah, so in the feedback, so far, the response has been awesome. Dude, people have participated in giving me such a good idea. - Good, good, so I'm gonna meet with someone probably next week and try to get it going, 'cause I mean, even with merch, I'm still, I did the whole store thing, but that seemed to kinda be a little weird, so I'm just gonna print it. - But I'll tell you, man, the shirt I got, I love it. I love the shirt. It took a while, it took forever to get, but I love it. - Yeah. - Fucking shirt, it was good shirt, but I'm a glassware guy, so I respond to glassware, like I'll take good glass, so I'll take a little while. - Yeah, I'm probably gonna try it, I'm probably gonna try it. - Toilets, toilets, ah, you said it to me, you said it to me, give me seven of them. - Toops and garbage. - I did not, the five of glassware. - I'm a Willie guy forever. - Give me a can we have? - I like Willie too, I like Willie too, I like him all. He likes the bump up, the no more. - With the bump up, the no more. - Yeah, the no more. - The no more. - He's so universal though, like every style of beer can go in this glass. - No, I love the tool of the-- - Listen for, I think IPA and the tool of the year. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. - You guys know, was that lacing from one of my beers on those glasses? - No, no, no, no, no, no, we've got point beers. - This is, this is. - That's, yeah. - However, no, no. - Oh, you've got a real willow. - Not rinsing glasses. - So here we are, we're in the IPA, we're in the beyond IPA dungeon. And this is our home base. We don't have a washing vessel. So usually I bring over a 12 ounce bottle of water, which is really pretentious. - I am, I'm so bad. I've got to rinse all my glasses. But, it was a whistle-viving, whistle-viving. - This was fun guys. - But yeah, awesome man, listen there. I love it. We're gonna connect soon again. I think you're a fucking hell of a conversation. Guys, go get a little willow, go support him. Guys cranking out good beers. Keep it up, dude. Good luck on the rehab. And we're gonna talk soon. - Yep. - Thanks. - Go get some. - Thank you guys later. - Thank you guys so much. (water running) - Thanks for joining us. If you want more information about the website or you wanna check out some past episodes, you can go to beyondIPAs.com. Check out our website. If you wanna join our Facebook group, go to IPAs and Beyond. And you can get in on the community there. If you wanna just email us directly, hit us up at
[email protected]. And if you ever have any suggestions for guests or questions for brewers or anything at all, what else know, hit us up. We love to hear from our guests, from our community. So cheers, thank you for listening.
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