Literary Renaissance Podcast: The KING OF NYC — Harold Rogers

Welcoming Harold Rogers: King of Substack and Literary Innovator Boom, we are here. We are live for the Literary Renaissance podcast. I am here with the man, the myth, the legend himself, the king of Substack, the man that is revolutionizing the entire game, Harold Rogers. This is the biggest guest we've ever had on the show. We're about to blow the numbers up. We're about to make all the leftist logic bro capitalist realist Bros mad because we're coming together. Collaboration is happening. Literary Renaissance is here, everyone, because today we are talking about Tropicalia. We're talking about what Harold's doing on Substack. We are going to go all the way and talk about so much more. Harold is the man behind one of the men behind one story pot. He is the king of New York City. He is man. I'm about to pull off his microphone. I'm so excited. Harold's Approach: Writing Personally for Universal Stories Harold on Substack is writing some absolute fire and the the question I didn't want to open up with but I'm going to ask you this now Harold when I I heard you talk about recently that and so that you are sick of writing about yourself. I haven't read so Harold has a book out Tropicalia. Everyone needs to go buy it right now. And I haven't read Humpty Dumpty yet. We'll talk about that in November. But you talked about how you were writing about yourself at some level, not autobiographically, but working through some of the stuff. And you have roommates and people that can tell the stories or little quirks that you put into your own stuff. And then when you read, obviously your sub stack, you're basically building this persona, right? You're building this guy Herald up. You're doing all this stuff, but what's so interesting about you is that at times you're being a prophet, bro. At times you're talking about the future of the literature, the man of letters. Another time, another half of you, which we see is you breaking yourself down, you breaking yourself and like going into like the like, you know, like, you know, just talking about yourself, your, your quirks or not even in the novel, just in general. And then on the other side, you're like a comedian. You're like, are like doing all this funny stuff. Is that a conscious choice within your writing and why are you trying to move away from? And I don't know if that was just an off statement, but do you feel like you have a creative path moving forward that's different than that? Speaker 2 No, you know, I think that was kind of a passing frustration. I don't know if that's how I feel now. Because really, it seems to me like, you know, I read East of Eden last week, and Steinbeck has his whole book of notes about the novel that he wrote as he was writing the novel. And one of the things he said in that, and he put it in the novel too, is just like, for a story to be, you know, everyone to feel like for it to be universal, it got to be deeply personal and familiar in some ways. And I really don't think you can write universally by trying to write universally. You got to go. You got to be as particular as possible. And that's how I feel. You know, I mean, this is what I'm saying, Like, but people just justify whatever they're doing with a theory, You know, what's ever just natural. And it just feels completely natural to me to write about my hometown and my family and the places I've been, you know, and excavate that for, to try to make something that everyone can relate to, you know, try to make something universal by being as particular as possible and. Speaker 1 That's interesting because you like James Joyce, you like fucking the obscene Bird of Night, you like all these weird postmodernist hard books. And so you, you like reclusive authors. Why? So you just felt like this was a natural choice. Was that because of social media? Because dude, your brand, your persona, it's on fire. You guys like everyone like, like you're East of Eden, like no one's doing book reviews like you. Like I guess some people are, but you're doing what I'm like, almost wanting to do. I'm like working my way into it. Also, it's like auto criticism. Like you're like talking about your experience reading it and then reviewing and doing all these things in a particular style that's suited to the personality. Like, why did you make that divergent choice away from maybe these people that you were reading, you know? Speaker 2 I mean, I think this is exactly what Joyce does. Joyce does all this, like everything about Joyce's work is, you know, his whole family, his hometown. He's using real addresses and he's feel, I mean, especially like Finnegan's Wake. Finnegan's Wake is like some deeply strange personal document about everything Joyce read his whole life and everyone he met, and he's stealing words. I mean, he would, like, lay on his bed, right? You know, when his eyes were bad? He's writing on a piece of paper with a crayon, right? In huge letters. And someone would say something at the door and he would put it into the book, you know? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I know 100% that's I actually didn't. That's actually a really great point. I forgot because he he was in Dublin timing things. He had to walk around with the clock. So everything was synonymous. He was timing the streets, everything like everything was in unity for the novel. And so do you, you know, so it's interesting though, that you've almost broken through that because when we look at like the portrait of the artist as a young man, that very refined, even though he is talking about himself, he hits this more minimalism a little bit less, you know, Stephen Daedalus or whatever his name is, a little bit tests exposed. And then eventually we kind of get this more cracked open style at the start in Tropicalia. We basically get a three level A3. I don't even know what to call it. Fuck, like a three level multi generational story from grandma daughter to the grandson Daniel. And you know, and what's interesting is like, but it didn't throw me off. Well, a couple of things are throwing me off about you, Harold, that I have to ask. Harold's Past: Jiu-Jitsu, Rio, and ACL Injuries So it's really fast. Let's just get this out of there really fast. You box, but you don't do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but you're love Brazil. What's going on with that? Harold I? Speaker 2 I did jiu jitsu. Jiu jitsu was my great love for like a long time. I want to you know, I used to train in in Co cabana at the original Gracie gym where Royce Gracie, you know, started going. You know, I, I knew Royce Gracie's wife used to work the desk at the gym, you know, after he had died or Carlson, Carlson Gracie, I'm sorry, Carlson Gracie's wife, you know, because he was dead at that time. And so, I mean, I love jiu jitsu. It's just I tore both my Acls playing soccer and is now jiu jitsu. I feel like has just become there's so much like leg cranks and shit like that, that it's just scary. I don't, I can't get back into it because I'm just scared of tearing my ACL or something again. Speaker 1 I love jiu jitsu. Speaker 2 I wanted to be a UFC fighter when I was a kid. Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Is that what was going on? Where you are? You from Brazil? Speaker 2 My mom is from Rio and my dad's from Ohio and I grew up, you know, back and forth. But I spent a lot of time in Rio growing up. Speaker 1 OK, so that makes sense. OK, That's that's how I feel too, Harold. You know, I was, I've been in and out of jiu jitsu for a long time. And when I was last in there, there was some 240 LB fucking 18 year old heel hooking me in the game, just cranking my leg. And I'm like, dude, what do I say? Like stop. Like, yeah, you know, like, you know, I guess I have to say stop. I'm like, dude, this is craziness. Speaker 2 And it it's just not worth it. It's really not worth it to to yeah, yeah, you're on projects all you know, you Yeah, they. But I love. Speaker 1 Throwing shoes. They used to throw shoes when people did heel hooks, they used to like, you know, beat people up. They said like, I like the Brazilian form of like, yeah, anyway, anyway. Speaker 2 We get Americans ruin everything huh? Americans ruin jujitsu with this shit. Speaker 1 Yeah. Exploring Tropicalia: Daniel's Journey and Rio's Reality So that that was that was a really interesting angle, though, that you basically had So so how about you give a no, I'll give the elevator pitch. It's renaissance. So you know, tropical, tropical. You know, what's interesting is it's about this protagonist, Daniel, and the writing style is so interesting because, you know, we, we talk about, you know, speaking to young men, being able to tap into it. And Daniel, the protagonist in the story, is he's like, what, 20 years old? 18 to 20 years old? Speaker 2 He's like 20. Speaker 1 Two, he's like 22. He's living in Rio. He knows English. He's like, you know, living in this almost, you know, living in this this criminal slash, you know, ex criminal lifestyle. He wasn't a very good criminal. And, you know, he's just trying to skate. He's just kind of skating by and his girlfriend is pregnant and she's trying to win her back and there's all this family drama going on. There's all this stuff going on. And so I'm doing a really bad job of explaining this, Harold. Speaker 2 No, that's true. You're right on so far. Speaker 1 Yeah. And so, you know, what really struck me though, is that Daniel, OK. And So what I wanted to kind of get at with what I was talking about earlier is that Daniel is basically embodying the same style of seemingly a lot of US men, you know, to for you know, and I want to ask you about this because you were talking about, you know, I heard you on one of your last podcasts talking about like, oh, William T Volman can't be the next masculine writer because he no one cares. It's too hard. It's, it's a little bit like, it's a little bit too out there. Like we need something to be a bridge maybe to him, even though he can be that person for us to be a great writer. And so what's interesting is that for most of us, and like I've seen this reading your work, most of us are a little bit confident about our work. We have a little bit of an ego. We like to self deprecate ourselves. And that's how we kind of access through the emotions. And we also like to, you know, lash out at people like, yeah, like, it's interesting like that. Daniel really embodied that. Speaker 2 Yeah, he's a he's an angry, disaffected young man. He definitely is. Speaker 1 Yeah. What's how did, how did you figure out how to capture that artistically? Because in tropicalia I've I've read some stuff, but I feel like it's one of the better representations of that. Speaker 2 Oh, well, thank you. I mean, it was easy because I was an angry, disaffected young man who was felt like the world had wronged me in so many ways. And honestly, writing Tropicali, I mean, I wrote it when I was, you know, in my 23 to 25. You know, I was working on it from the time I was 21 and it was published, you know, when I was 26. And I was working through a lot of the problems that I felt were hampering me. And through writing the book, I really feel like I purged myself of a lot of resentments I had toward my past and my family and, you know, things that I felt like went wrong. And so it was just interesting to me to put that into Daniel and I mean, Daniels more lost than I was. And he he never really, I don't he found himself a little bit. I see. I feel like the goal of a man. And I was talking about this this weekend with, you know, me and Sean were in Dallas doing a reading and we had did a live pod in Dallas at the deep vellum festival. And we're talking to a woman there who has a son, and we're just about masculinity. And I just think the goal of a man is to try to find a way to be useful to the people around him. And Daniel really struggles with that. He's a drain on all the resources. He's a drain on his family's resources. He's a drain on his girlfriend, Leticia. And he knocks her up. And it's just like he, he, he's just taking from everyone. He's not being useful in any way. And I feel like at the end of the book, he gets like a little menial job or whatever, but he's working, he's cleaning up, you know, he's like a janitor. And he's trying to be nice to his family now. And to me, that's a win. If you can find a way just to be useful to the people directly around you, you don't have to do anything great. Just stop being a drain on the world and being angry that the fact that you're being a drain is not being rewarded by society. Because that's, that's where I was for, you know, when I was a teenager and in my early 20s, you know, I was being a drain on the people around me. And I was mad that they weren't rewarding me for it. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, and it's it's it's that mindset that if that continues for someone and like it continues in our hearts at some level too. And it whatever, however that continues, it's like really harsh. Why did you? I mean, not to spoil too much, but you know what, what interested me is that you just, you really up the tragedy in this one. I felt like you just kept turning the Nile. I I maybe it's your first novel. We could talk about that. Like you're getting onto the scene, which is also interesting. That's why I was trying to ask with the Joyce question, which really didn't come across well. Feels like you're doing everything at the start or like it's interesting that like he, he started to do like 10-15 years later, you know what I mean? And so, you know, the tragic elements like this shit just kept happening, which was fine, that's fine with me. But you know, it's almost, you know, I think a lot of people though, Harold of men, when we tell them like you're Harold, like this is me, I'm up here, we're live, everyone, there's hundreds of people watching us right now. Like we're doing it. You got the book deal, Harold. You're at the deep vellum festival. You haven't ladies asking about masculinity. Like, what's better than that? Yeah. We have these feelings inside. Yeah. I just got him out. Yeah. I'm healed. It's great. But, you know, the guy getting the menial job, a lot of the time, if he becomes useful, that that stuff maybe isn't healed, though, you know what I mean? That's true. So I've moved in somewhat of a tragedy. I saw the transition. I saw the individuation, but I didn't see what Daniel was kind of like, damn. And I it was realistic. That's why the book was kind of cold in a good way. I was kind of like, this is actually the reality for a lot of these people who I knew, Like, you know, a lot of them become, you know, family man or whatever. But a lot of that resentment is still stored in there, you know? Speaker 2 Yeah. And I mean, the book is about like cycles repeating themselves and the way it's set up, like you get, you always get, you know, Daniel Lucia, then another character, Daniel Lucia, then another character. And, you know, the middle part changed a little bit. But at the end, it's supposed to be like, I mean, Daniel vanishes. He goes looking for his girlfriend in Uruguay, you know, So I don't know what happens to him, really. But the only one who really resolves things is Lucia, you know, and she's writing the book that we're reading, Daniel's sister, right? So she, she resolved things. And I guess the, the, the book says that how to resolve your problems is to write a book, you know. So I mean, but some people don't get over their resentments and stuff. I mean, I guess the book is, see, that's what people would. I mean, a lot of people told me that that they were like, my God, the book is so depressing, this and that, which I didn't totally think actually, when I was writing it, I didn't think it was that tragic or depressing. I really didn't. Speaker 1 Well, those, those people, Harold, are probably the Oh my God, Harold. It's so dark. Like it wasn't that bad. Like I'm not. Speaker 2 I didn't think it was that. I thought it was realistic. I and I just think like, you know, sometimes life is really hard and you get problems thrown at you. And I mean, I mean, there's you got to figure out how to deal with it. And especially in a work like, I don't know, like fucking like Shakespeare, whatever the fuck. Like in those tragedies, everything bad is happening all the time. And but sometimes in that extreme environment, you can really get good literature out of it just psychologically and with the language, you know. But Humpty Dumpty is much funnier. It's really funny the whole time. Trumpy Cali is funny sometimes, but it's mostly, you know, it's serious, but it is funny sometimes I think. Speaker 1 No, no, no, it's super funny. That's I'm not, I'm not. And I'm not even saying that, bro. You know, the the entire book is really just a gag, bro, like, you know. Yeah. And that's what makes it funny is that, you know, it's, you know, and I like, that's why it's taking place in Rio. You get to have these different elements. And that's what it it actually you mentioned Shakespeare not to compare you to Shakespeare like. Speaker 2 Please. Speaker 1 But you know, you get those elements of like, you know, in America, in North America, even in Europe, things are mostly saturated in terms of like there's, there's not that much violence. There's not the, the outlier situations happen in little situations. But in, in Rio, I've known a lot of people who've gone down there for jujitsu or other things. I've heard stories of robberies of like of a guy who was hitting on a girl at a bar and he like the, the, the, the guy comes in and they're like freaks out and they start fighting in this guy because he does jujitsu, breaks his dudes arm and he figures out they're a gangster. He's a gangster has to leave the country immediately. Like, you know, like crazy stories that like you don't hear when someone goes to fucking Portland or like, you know, I had to step. Speaker 2 Sounds like you got some friends that get into some mischief. Speaker 1 Yeah, but this is like immediately from the start, like, Daniel, like, you know, there's people falling off rocks, there's tourists being killed, you know, there's robberies, you know, and not to spoil the penultimate moment, but there's like, things that are happening that aren't uncommon, which I think is like was like a very strong choice from you not, you know, to make the novel function because like, I think even as Americans, we have a, you know, I don't. I think we have a, you know, like I said, you didn't. You didn't. You didn't. I don't think of this at all. Obviously you were just writing the book, but I think that out of all the South American countries, I think Rio de Janeiro is probably an American and Westerners hearts. Like we have a picture of it. We understand, we've heard about the favelas, we've heard about these things going on. And so, yeah, that that those, those elements, I feel like really made it easy for you. Like some of the bad shit that was going on. I never thought like, oh, this is unrealistic. This is just what happens. As if this was taking place in Ohio, in Columbus, I'd kind of be like, it's pushing it, you know? Speaker 2 Yeah, and I mean, part of the book too. I mean, the title Tropicalia is about, you know, it's taken from an artistic movement in the mid 20th century where the point is like how Brazil is viewed from the outside, the outside looking into Brazil. So, so much of the book was bound up with especially the American, you know, how Americans see Brazil and you know, like Daniel's dad or something that goes there. They take the women there and this and that. And, you know, but honestly, that is one side of Rio. But I think Rio is like, in some ways get safer, especially for tourists every year. And that's the thing about it too. When people say it's violent or whatever, the people that it's violent for are the people who live there in precarious circumstances. It's not violent for tourists. Tourists go there and they usually have the time in their lives and they can do whatever they want because there's so much more powerful than everyone there automatically just by, you know, the currency exchange just off the bat, the currency exchange and the way the law protects them and everything like that. So for a tourist like Rio is a play background and that's that's part of what the book was about. Speaker 1 Exactly. And when I and I felt that too, like they were just tramp tourists just trampling over everything, like, no, no real idea on their mind. Exactly. Because all those dudes I just talked about, all those bad stories, those guys were idiots. Those guys were at the wrong places, doing the wrong things, wrong time, you know. And so, yeah, everyone else has had a great time. No one. Speaker 2 I've heard. Speaker 1 Nothing but, you know, like. Speaker 2 The best way to be safe, and really anywhere, is to not be an idiot. Speaker 1 Yeah, no. Speaker 2 I know. Speaker 1 Like if you're at a Rio bar in the bad part of town because you're sleeping in some jiu jitsu gym and it's 2:00 in the morning and some hot girl shows up and she automatically starts hitting on you, you can assume she's mad at your boyfriend when especially if you're ugly. Like, you know, like, like, stay away, everyone. Yeah. That dude, that dude, that dude had that fucking, you know, when that chick walked in, he probably was like that dumb song from the Rio movie in Rio. He was like, magic happens baby and he's fucking leaving the next day like. Speaker 2 Anyway. Speaker 1 Anyway, so you know, I hate to talk to you about this book and I'm sure you're sick of it. I know you know you're I I hit you up for that viral substat post too, by the way. I was. Speaker 2 Already you, you, you a fan, you know, I mean, I I fuck with you. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, so. But anyway, I don't want to talk because I must feel weird, right? Like I'm not talking about like your old shit like this is like your way past this now I. Speaker 2 Assume right. Like, yeah, I mean, it's been three years since it was published, and so four years since I finished writing it. Speaker 1 So I'll, I'll, I'll let you off the hook. From Substack to Book: The 'Abolishing Time' Process I want to I want to talk about some other things. We can, we can talk more about this. This will sort of cycle back in. I I first of all, guys, one story pod put in the chat right now for everyone. One story pod on YouTube. It guys, it's it's the only, I think it's the only literary podcast I listen to. Oh. Speaker 2 My gosh, I. Speaker 1 Mean literally, I don't know who else is there is like people, two people coming together other than this one to speak about something. It's definitely the best one. Like there's a nice intermixing of your personal life, what you guys are doing. Like, you guys are in the scene, too, Harold. You know, I feel like, Harold, you bring the worst side out of me, bro. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, sometimes I sit. Sometimes I sit. I'm like, I want to go to New York City. You know why I want to be involved. You know, I want to leave my nook in the woods, you know? Like, you know, I'm like, no, wait, I can't go there. Like, you know, I. Speaker 2 You can come to New York, come to New York. Let's hang out. Come to New York. Speaker 1 I know I'll be there, Harold. Don't worry bro. Speaker 2 Crash on my couch. Speaker 1 Yeah, I will bro. That's open invite. Yeah, sounds good. I I want to go though. It's got to be dynamic, Carol. I want to go like crash, like, you know, crash a big event, Metropolitan review, something I got to like, you know, storm with the literary renaissance we have to do like a stand in Roberto Bolano style. Speaker 2 They used to throw. Speaker 1 Stuff they used to like throw, go to those readings and throw stuff at the people speaking and be like this sucks. Speaker 2 Yeah, we, yeah, let's do that. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, You, you're the you're speaking, though. We could, we could plan it. That would be great. That would be a great. Do you, what do you feel about that man? You know, Speaking of fighting, Speaking of these things, I feel like orchestrated events that like, imagine, Harold, if we showed up at your event, you're reading and we, you know, it's just all a fucking gimmick. Speaker 2 You should, you should throw eggs at me. Yeah, that would be great promo for Humpty if you pelted, if you egged me while I was on stage reading. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. And then no one says anything and we do it. And then, like, it's a big deal. You don't press charges because you're in on it. And, and, and everyone's like, you know, I'm a villain. You're the hero. Yeah. Stories everywhere. The revival, the literary scene, like that's literally what needs to happen, like. Speaker 2 I completely agree. I love that Anyone, anyone who's listening, if I'm reading somewhere like pelt me with eggs, throw stuff at me, I don't care. I'm not going to press charges. Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 1 Yeah, like it's, well, it's, it's interesting. It's interesting because like, you know, we, you've probably, you got an MFA. I went to the MFA readings. You know, there's the guy with the scarf. And it's like, you can't focus on what they're saying. You lose track and then you're gone. And you're like, what are they saying? And then you're like, oh God. And you're stuck there for 15 minutes. You don't want to leave. There's no bathroom. It's like a whole thing. And so it's like, it feels like, and you know, and that's what, you know, it's interesting about your publication and your approach in general is that you're basically doing all of it. You know another thing that makes me want to be toxic with you, Harold? I can tell you something. Harold Clark clickbaited more. Harold. Harold, just get into it. Harold, open your mouth for the thumbnail. Like just do it. Open your mouth. It's OK like. Speaker 2 But you know what? Yeah, go ahead. You go. Speaker 1 On you go on, my man. Speaker 2 I was just going to say that I do think that there is a way to make the your your own public reading performance good in a way that I mean, you see so much of it and it sucks. But like this weekend when I was in Dallas, the headliner, the whole festival was this dude Hanif Abdurakib. You ever heard of him? Speaker 1 No, I haven't. Speaker 2 He writes like nonfiction and stuff. And I mean, I wasn't a fan of him going in, but I went to check it out, you know, spitefully, like as one does, like this guy's headlining, he thinks he's a big shot. And he was really captivating with his reading because he was like, he would read like a poem and then tell an anecdote and then he'd read another piece of something and he just varied it so much. And he spoke to you in between. And it was all just so natural that he was really connecting with the audience. And he did a great job. And I just feel like there's a ways to make your reading really good that people aren't utilizing because a lot of people go up to read. They don't even prepare. Like they're just like they get a piece of the paper and they monotone read their thing and they just don't care. And it's just like, I'm going to the reading, I'm going to party, whatever, and I'm going to be seen on stage. And so it's not an entertainment event in any way. So there's a gap there to make it in actual entertainment. Speaker 1 Yeah. And that's, was that you, was that Sean or was that someone else that will someone who was interviewing William T Volman. Everyone went and read, interviewed him recently and I was like. Speaker 2 Sean was first up. What? Speaker 1 Did you say? Speaker 2 Sean went out there first. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Was that was that? Was he the one that said, though, that Volman said something about David Foster Wallace doing cocaine? Speaker 2 Like at a reading. Speaker 1 David Foster Wallace was doing cocaine and didn't know what to read or. Speaker 2 Something. Yeah, Yeah. Speaker 1 I we need to get the year on that because I'm like, is this sober Dave? Because I love the persona stuff like David Foster Wallace sober, right, like, you know, but is he doing? But he was sober when he was famous enough to be doing a reading that big. Speaker 2 And that doing cocaine, I mean, it was probably early when he was like after the first book, when he went to like Harvard and stuff. It was probably around that time, I would think probably that time, OK, you know, before. Speaker 1 Infinite Jest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I OK here. Here's an infinite. We've brought it up. I have an Infinite Jest joke for you. Speaker 2 Yeah, please give it to me. Speaker 1 Back in April, you were talking about discipline, Maxing. And with all due respect, Harold, I know you're off of it now, bro, I know, I know that the spider is back in the shower. How it oren and condenses style. It's back in the shower and you're paralyzed. But let me see your desk where you filmed the one story pod. I know that Noah is not clean. It is not clean right now. The discipline maxing is over. Speaker 2 Yeah, you're right. Speaker 1 About that, Harold, what's been, what's been going on with that man? Speaker 2 The discipline, Max, I mean it. I mean, I was just joking with Shawn about this, that it's like I, I tell everyone on the Internet that I'm discipline Max and then I go drink 30 beers, you know? But honestly, it's like I've been working on this book that abolishing time that's supposed to be out next year that I just turned in. I actually turned it on Friday. And when I'm working on the book like that, honestly, I work on it and all I want to do is get fucked up. Like all I want to do afterward is, you know, I mean, just because I just feel so stupid. I feel drained and I'm just like, I need a beer. I just and the weather's so nice and the vibes have been so good in New York. That's just like I I need a beer. Speaker 1 I don't know about this book Abolishing Time. Is this a short story collection fiction book? Speaker 2 So this is something that came together because my editor, Ben Brooks, he he really likes my sub stack and he was just like, you should pitch a book of like essays based on the sub stack. And so I did that and he liked the pitch, but then I kind of turned it into like a weird sort of novel. Now it's kind of like a non fictiony novel, like through essays. I think it's, I think it's an interesting book. Speaker 1 So you took your, did you take substat content and then? Speaker 2 Refill. Yeah, I did. I took a lot of the stuff. I used that kind of as like a notebook and turned it into real pieces and try to make a cohesive novel out of it. Speaker 1 Well, and that's and and see, you know, for everyone listening, you know, this is the literary Renaissance podcast. I mean, that's what you guys can literally do. Like Harold, I don't. I don't think you spend 40 hours on a sub stack piece, am I right? Speaker 2 No, I I don't. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. However, it's not that much time you you put it to get no as what's all do. Speaker 2 No, I mean it's true. I mean it, it's true. Yeah. And. Speaker 1 So you're out there. You're. Speaker 2 Making. Speaker 1 Content. I'm reading it. Simon's reading it in the chat. We're fans of you. We're reading all of them. We're reading the reviews. We're having a good time. We're getting to know you. We're in the funnel where time spent with the author will be there for the book launch for, you know, all this stuff. But then it's literally content, though, you know what I mean? Not all of it. Some of it's shit or just not can't be reused, but some you're literally just practicing. And that's what people don't realize is it it's like, you know, and it's and that's what's seemingly like, I don't know if this is the bridge in the modern era because like we see that like I could clip this, I could clip these interviews. I could clip you saying something dumb and they try to make it go viral, but I could turn everything in the content, you know? Speaker 2 What I mean? Speaker 1 But at some level, this is the evolution of the modern mind and of technology and how we seemingly are existing as creators. We do these things Like I'd same with sub stack. Like I'll say something on this and it'll be a YouTube video. It'll be another Sub Stack video and I'll repurpose it and say it differently, but I'll, you know, make it better, make changes to it. And so seemingly that's like something that people don't realize about their backlogs on Sub Stack that yeah, it may not come out as a 12 part short story collection as is, yeah, going to get the call from Penguin Random House, but it could be converted into something, you know. Speaker 2 Well, well, that's what I think is I think a lot of people get precious about the work and they want like, oh, you know, I'll do this piece if someone's going to pay me for this and that. But so much of it is like every week I'm living, I'm reading and I'm thinking and the sub stack and the podcast help me put my thinking together. I think of those things as notebooks. They're public notebooks is all they are and it doesn't count till I put it in a novel or something like that. I'm just figuring out what I think about things like sometimes you, if you you press me on a take or something I said like the Volman thing or whatever the you know, that's a passing fancy. I don't even know if I think that, you know, and it ain't if it's in a published book, you can consider it official. But before then, it's just like, I'm not, you know, my takes are, are mutable, you know, I'm shifting with the wind. I don't know what I think. Speaker 1 Yeah, and that's, and you know, I feel that too. People will send me messages that are like, fuck you. And what you said about Tolson, what the fuck did I say about Tolstoy 2017? Like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, and then I look and I'm like, oh shit, I can't believe I said that. Like that's so dumb. Like, you know, and so I get that. But then like you said though, and that's what's interesting not to, you know, and that's what I've been trying to think of. And you're the perfect example of this. I keep bringing you up in a lot of my videos because I'm like, wait, what if we had these authors behind me that people to say like, like, oh, document the journey. But what if we had the notebooks? What is the notebooks that have to be read as a book of letters or a book of notebooks? But we're generally live. What if we got to see the process? And by doing the process actually, there might be, you know, it's what's interesting about writing is that like you actually generally, and if you're doing this, like you said, if you're putting these things and synthesizing and learning, it's, it's, it's actually a skill discipline maxing in general is going to fail because you're just trying to repeat these shitty habits that don't really like, who cares if the floor isn't vacuumed or something, something, but you know, because it's going to get dirty again tomorrow. But with your writing, with all these things, it builds and it's a record. It doesn't go away. It. Speaker 2 Doesn't have to be again. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? And so it seems like you're and that's like, and that's why I've been like, I'm trying to do this too. I've done this with video, like trying to not just document, but synthesize and do all these different things because it builds to something greater, you know, and something you said, I don't know if you feel this way, but another thing that I think that's really sick. I, I forgot about this abolishing time book. Is that like, hey, OK, we got the debut novel, OK, but now we're coming back with something better. I'm better. This is the masterpiece. Don't throw an egg at this guy. But then you're, you're, you're, you're pivoting a little bit. You're, you're with abolishing time. You're, you know, is it as serious as you're not even worried. You're just putting work in recycling. And it's like that type of mindset, if you think of martial arts or whatever, is the type of stuff that just keeps you going, keeps you going to the next breakthrough. That's like a bridge. Speaker 2 Well, yeah, I don't. Speaker 1 Know it just seems like you're like on track bro. It seems like everything's like, you know? Francis Bacon, Faulkner, and Reclusive Author Branding I mean, the whole thing is a process. And you know, I was, I was reading this book, the interviews with Francis Bacon, the painter. Do you know, Do you know him? The 20th century painter? Speaker 1 No, I only know the Sir Francis Bacon. The other. Speaker 2 One, yeah, of course, who might have been Shakespeare. This is his descendant, possible to send an Irish painter. And he was just talking about, like, his attitude toward the work. And he's just like, you know, I don't care if anyone looks at this stuff like he would destroy paintings. All he was interested in was working out technical problems. The work is itself. I'm trying to represent this. I'm trying to, you know, I'm going to put my influence here from Velasquez and I'm going to combine it with this photograph I think is interesting. And it's all about just, you know, your own interest in the work and that's what sustains you, you know, not trying to be, I'm going to be like the greatest writer of all time. And that's I'm not just if you're interested in the work and you keep working, I feel like you just keep getting better and you're doing interesting stuff like. Yeah. Speaker 1 They'll go on, go on. Speaker 2 And also I just I really admire the writers who are always like someone like Faulkner, where in his great novels are all so different. Like he wrote like 10 year period, As I lay dying, Sound of the Fury, Absalom, like Nagas go down, Moses and I guess sanctuary. You could consider that the Hamlets in the and it's like these novels are all so different. They're unmistakably his, but they're treating different formal problems. And it's just like, wow, this is like, amazing, you know, just constantly changing. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I'm and and that's, you know, what's so interesting too, is that like the the all these guys like that you when you look at a lot of these bibliographies, they all they're they're rapidly changing. But then like staying in this like masterful scope. Like they've, they've, they've got their little, their little, their little land. And then they're just like doing crazy renovate. Like they've like, it's really cool to watch. Speaker 2 On the, you mentioned before, just in terms of this content, stuff like I, I really feel like, you know, these avant-garde, these difficult works, like someone like Gaddis or whatever. A lot of the why it doesn't, you know, he wrote the recognitions and he thought he was going to win the Nobel Prize like he said, and no one read it and he was very disappointed. But he didn't even put an author photo on the book, right? He, he's just being reclusive as like an act in a way that I think separated him from people. And if he had been more because he lived a a really interesting life, you know, especially when he was young and he's out working in the fucking Panama Canal and shit like that. And if he had been more open about what his life was like, I think that would give people an opening into the book. You know, I guess someone with like, like pension that, that people love pension and don't know anything about him. So maybe that changes the conversation a little bit, but. Speaker 1 No, they don't know. No one reads them. No, people think they read them. People read Inherent Vice. Most people don't. Speaker 2 Do you like pension? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I love them, bro. Yeah. Speaker 2 I read Gravity's Rainbow in December. That was the the first pension I read. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think I read your post. You didn't like it very much. Speaker 2 No, I did like it. I did like it. I just thought what was good about it was I didn't like the funny parts. I liked the serious parts. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 That's, you know, when, because, because when he's serious, he's like, oh, he, he's like Jonathan Edwards or something. He like a pulpit fire and brimstone prophet. And then when he's being funny, it's like here you're fucking like, come on, this is lame, you know? Speaker 1 That's what's so weird. They do these jokes like his recent book shadow ticket back here. Don't even read it, bro. Like they're just telling jokes. Corbett McCarthy, his last novel, the passenger. It's like boomers telling jokes. I know you're a stand up comedian. Yeah, like it maybe it was like good for TV writing or like back in the past, but they're they're super. I mean, it's and I, I, I, I, I feel like they're annoyingly doing it too, like they know what they're doing. Like it's like people putting songs like pinch on will put like songs in books. Like you're just reading this. It's like fucking reading The Hobbit and you're like, Oh my God, it's even worse some. Speaker 2 People like, I think some people like that silliness, though, I guess I don't. Yeah, I don't know. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. People will say like it. I mean, the work is funny, like there are funny moments and like, but like you said though, when they hit that level of darkness, it gets wild. Like you could see that he really is Acia plant or like AI or something like that, you know, like whatever he is like. Speaker 2 Like I always point to the the the dodo part, Gravity's rainbow, where he's talking about the dodos going extinct and just this whole thing about the people who won't be saved, the pretorite. And I'm just like that. That's the stuff I'm I'm interested in, but I don't think I'm running to read all of pension honestly. Speaker 1 Yeah, and well, and it, it goes to this greater point, though, which is like, it's this divide that's really weird pension. And like a David Foster Wallace had the and a core. Matt McCarthy had the perfect branding. Whoever that they, they, they had these marketing geniuses and A and A and a base of readers out there who could fuel it, that could turn these dudes into these celebrities, right. And they could basically lie like, was David Foster Wallace sober? What was he doing? Cormac McCarthy, the cowboy that's never ridden a horse, doesn't shoot guns, just fucking sits in his house, science books all day. Like it's crazy. But they made people believe it. And so that's how those reclusive authors kind of get over. And that's, I think, a form of priming. You know, before you ever read Pynchon, you heard me raving, everyone else raving. And so you were primed to be able to get through it easier. But Gaddis or William Gas, those dudes never received any priming. They kind of are getting it now, getting some. Speaker 2 Shots. Yeah, definitely. I mean, everyone's reading the tunnel now it seems like. Speaker 1 Yeah. And so that's been getting like pushed for a second. So people are being primed toward it to make it a kind of an easier journey for them because it's kind of a mess. Like, you know, like it's so funny that people try to pitch it like the tunnel as this like fascist, like exploration. And everyone's like, like being a fascist or Republicans A taboo now. Like I'm going to explore my dark side. But like, it's really just him. This like talking about how he like, hates women the entire time, which I guess is part of the trope, but there's barely anything in it about all the fascist stuff. Speaker 2 It's really just. Speaker 1 Him like, you know, hating women. So anyway, like kind of funny anyway, so it's kind of this weird divide though of like of you know, I don't know if those possibilities are there anymore. I don't know if people like you, you've experienced this with yearbook. I don't know if the mark like, dude, if I I could, I could literally Harold, if you gave me a God damn week, I could sell you more copies than they sold you, bro. Like they don't know. I believe they don't know what the fuck they are doing. Like they literally don't know what the fuck they're doing. Like it's crazy, bro. Like it's wild like and so it's. Speaker 2 Interesting. Speaker 1 Well, I yeah, but like, still like, it's not, I'm not that good like, you know what I mean? Like, like, it's not that hard like. Speaker 2 Like. Speaker 1 I don't even need to do anything. We just need to get you like you have a podcast, you you talk, you have hot takes, you say dumb shit, you're young, you're this, you're that like it's easy. They would just have to like literally just like just form something around you and let you do something and it would work. You know what I mean? Like it's crazy and you're not the only one. What's so interesting hear you and Sean hearing all those people, you know. All the, the New York City people, even though I, I, I, I troll them sometimes, they're all generally interesting people. Like I feel like if you gave them the right outlet and like let them run, like they would generally interest people. And so it's kind of anyway. So there's that though. But then on the other side of the aisle, it's like, yeah, with you writing and sharing everything, that's basically you already doing it. I feel like most more people, if they started adopting that would not just become a little bit more known, but just like your editor, right? This this guy, this guy is into your stuff. You guys like he's in? Speaker 2 Your stuff and broke people into your stuff. Yeah. I mean, I, and The thing is like, you know, no one was into my stuff. And then I started posting on Substack every week and I got really good at just writing with that form just because I was doing it every week, you know. I mean, I've posted every week since August 20th, 2024. I posted like 130 things on some say just for free, just because I was interested in it. And for the first time people were like reading trophy Kalia that. I mean, it's stunning to me that that people are, are reading that book now in a way that they weren't before just because they're curious, you know, because I'm, I'm, you know, I feel like I, and I like giving away. I give too much stuff away for free, honestly. Like, Oh my, I got so many pro bono boxing clients now. It's like ridiculous. I I tell people come in, you know, But I like giving stuff away. Speaker 1 I know, I know. I feel like we need to turn this into like a fucking substat coaching session because I'm like Harold, I I want to give you money, but you don't have anything to give. Speaker 2 Money. No, don't give me money. Buy buy my book if you want. But I don't. I don't want your money. Speaker 1 I know, but we want to support you, bro. We want you. Yeah, You're supporting Jets. We want you, we want you, we want you, we want you going off to. Speaker 2 Who'd want to be on a private jet? Speaker 1 Yeah, well, that's true too. We want. Speaker 2 This why I only got the only print I got in my room is my only decoration is the Tower of Babel. So I can remind myself that it's all you know, It's all doomed. That's all you know. It'll never get done and it'll always be doomed. You know everything. Yeah, exactly. Speaker 1 But anyway, well, that's anyway. The point is though, that like the point is though, it's like, yeah, you're well and it doesn't matter though, because you've you've been sent something else. You know, really, I mean, you just kind of admitted it. Buy my book. You could try to get sub stack subscriptions or build goodwill to get people spending time with your work and then they buy your book. Because that's what happened to me before I ever got this. You know, I actually read it before. I like when I was emailing you a long time ago, I just kept reading your work and then suddenly I figured out you had a podcast and I had seen you around. Funny enough, I had seen you around and, and I watched an episode and I was like, you know, I, I was in one of those spiteful moves. I was like back, back like seven months. Like, I don't know, it was like I went on this whole like fuck New York City campaign, which I'm. Speaker 2 Sure, like that I understand I can do that. Speaker 1 And and then I saw you guys and like there was a guest on. I don't remember who it was and you guys weren't talking. They were. And I was like, yeah, fuck New York City. I forget who it was. Yeah, but I was, I didn't listen. And then I watched you guys again because you reviewed the book that I liked. I was like, oh, these guys are awesome, actually. Yeah, yeah. I only listened to like 3 minutes the first time. But then I was seeing you guys around YouTube and I was like, OK, and then boom, I see you on sub stack and then, you know, it just builds and I'm like, oh, you know. And so, yeah. Speaker 2 And I feel like there's a lot of that just like, I don't know, as a male writer, I mean, I definitely feel that competitive thing where anyone else who's trying to be a fucking male writer, my immediate reaction is like, fuck, you get the fuck out of my lane. Like, but that's, you know, it's, it's hard to, you know, keep that same energy face up, especially when, you know, like, I mean, a lot of people feel that way about you, I think. But you're, I mean, I think you're a very nice guy and I you're doing, you know, you're doing your thing and in a respectable way. And now it's like, I can't have, no, you know, just talking to you like this. How am I going to have any hate for you? We're trying to do the same thing in a way, you know, but I think, you know, the young male writers got to support each other, you know? Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, 100%. Building a Literary Renaissance: Tradition, Readers, and Authenticity Well, and that's, and that's really it. Like if we could actually figure that out because that competitiveness is real. It's hard and it's hard when people it's hard, dude. Like I remember being at some MFA reading and I fucking had like a mental breakdown. I got like a migraine and I was like, I'm going to I'm dropping out today. I'm going, I'm not going to college anymore. I'm going to create a God damn literary renaissance. I fuck all this. I can't handle it another day. And like, and then I didn't do anything for five years because it just build off resentment. I had to like my heart and do everything correctly and blah, blah, blah. But like that, that energy, like it definitely like the industry does create that, but it definitely needs to be re channeled because everybody on here, like even the people that hate me, I'm like, you know, outside of maybe I mean, most of them really want to create some form of like a literary renaissance, get people reading again, most people, every single person I've talked to like, you know. Speaker 2 Our goals are all aligned. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's crazy. And that's, that's funny enough. That's one of the reasons like that's been like a big turn for me that for a while I was like, you know, a little bit more aggressive against like a lot of people. And then over this past year I've like been talking to him and like, I'm like, Oh no, I feel so it feels so awkward. Like it was like 1 author. I won't name his name, but I literally took his book on one of my videos that got like 80,000 views and I ripped it up. I was like, fuck, this coward is a coward. And like, you know, and then I like started talking to him one day and I was like, oh God. Speaker 2 He. Speaker 1 Was. And then he didn't even know I did that. And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry. Speaker 2 Yeah, that, I mean. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 I, I get that. I mean, I'm so like that, like, you know, I hate you. And then you say 1 nice thing about me and then I'm like, oh, like, hey, like all you gotta do is just flatter me a little bit and I'm I'm completely transformed. Speaker 1 The standards are high too, bro. It's like really hard when you have the classic authors behind you. We're in a dying industry. And it's like there's, it's so, it's so, there's so much. And like the, I like to be a writer. If you want to be a writer, if you even want to be a reader, you basically have to be this young, like an idealist. You have to just like no one else around you is going to understand it. Your dating prospects are going to suffer for a while until you hit the fucking the, the, the ascension arc, you know, the books and so you know you're going to suffer in that regard. And then you finally get the rewards. But there there's like a lot. And then even us bro, like you said, like even I like have to stop myself at times and I feel like I've literally done the ayahuasca, I've done the meditation, I've done it all. Speaker 2 And don't worry there you. Speaker 1 Know. Speaker 2 Yeah, it never goes away. Yeah, Yeah, it goes away briefly, but you, you know, it's something you constantly gotta because the thing about resentment is so delicious because it just, it's self-sustaining. Like you don't have to do anything If I just resent you now all of a sudden I don't have to do anything productive. It's the thing about being useful, right? Like I don't got to do anything if I hate you, because now it's like, I hate you. I feel good. Like fuck him, fuck Ian. Now I feel good. I'll, I'll just drink beer for the rest of the day and fucking pass out. I don't got to write nothing. I hate Ian. Speaker 1 Yeah, and it's hard. It's hard because I feel like that's something weird about the feedback loop too. It's something I'm really trying to stop myself from doing is that sometimes when I'm speaking, I'm like responding to some like random fucking idiot, like and like no one in the like I'm breaking my creative flow because I'm like, wait, I need to make sure there's one point that he made is, and I'm not mentioning his name. I'm just, I need to make sure I get this one over. And I'm like this is ruining what I'm doing like. Speaker 2 This is not. Speaker 1 You know, and so I feel like with even within writing too, within having idols or, or enemies or stuff like that, you're like, oh, I'm gonna, I feel like that's definitely not. It can be used as a form of fuel. But you know, it's kind of weird though, because like I, I look at some of these authors and like they were hyper competitive. They were wild, vicious. Speaker 2 Hemingway was gonna punch bugger in the face, he said. Speaker 1 Who did? Speaker 2 Hemingway to was gonna Yeah. I mean, to me that screams of a little jealousy. Speaker 1 Oh, dude, I I there, if you know about that rivalry between Hemingway and Fault and they were giving, like, prize acceptance speeches and being like, yeah, like, this is like, I'm better than, like, you know, it's better than me being Hemingway. Yeah. Like, Oh my God. Speaker 2 And you know, you know, Hemingway wasn't that good of a boxer. He really fronted like he could box. But I remember there was this a journalist, I forget his name, this journalist who like interviewed Hitler, who's a British journalist who was a solid boxer. And he would, he sparred Hemingway every day for like a couple weeks and he was beating this shit out of Hemingway to where heavyweight didn't even want to come through. Like he, he didn't really have hands like that. I could smoke Hemingway. Speaker 1 Yeah, well, that's dog. That was like fucking 1920. Speaker 2 Bro no, but, but I really think those boxers from back then, I think boxing is one of those sports where you throw like Joe Lewis into a heavy. Like he probably wouldn't fight heavyweight because he's too small, but like cruiserweight or light heavyweight, I think he would really mix it up. Like those guys could punch hard and they were tough, you know, I think they could still mix it up. I don't think boxing has change that much except for people's size. Speaker 1 OK, we have a conspiracy theorist now, Harold Harold Harold bringing 1 though do you think you think that Hicks and Gracie can walk on the mat right now and do OK? Speaker 2 I mean, jiu jitsu, I think it's changed more than boxing because, you know, like we were saying like with the like leg locks and stuff like that. But yeah, yeah, you know, it's just more techniques. It's weird. Speaker 1 Boxing so because I agree boxing is a really weird sport because how they build fighters and the evolution I can I can I can see and concede that point because the thought behind boxing too like jiu jitsu, because you can spar endlessly can has almost unlimited possibilities. You could just spar and there's certain body types and with steroids there's dudes that have literally spent 10s of thousands of hours the Ryan's on the mat thinking, obsessing. And with boxing you literally have to stop. You can't do it. Speaker 2 Anymore, it's like and the boxing, like there's no new combinations, there's no new punches that anyone has discovered, you know, So it's like in jiu jitsu, like the techniques proliferate endlessly. But that's why I think boxing is so much like literature because like you can see how certain styles develop in reaction to other styles. I think the perfect example of this is Tyson and Ali because, you know, Ali went to see Tyson when he was a kid out in the penitentiary and was his big inspiration. And Tyson developed a style that would have been perfect for defeating Ali. You know, they were in perfect concordance. And I think that happens a lot. So, you know, it's like literature and where it doesn't really evolve in any kind of progression. There's like fits and starts, and it changes in reaction to something else, you know, but you're always at trying to add your own unique spin on the few moves there are. I mean, you know, you can make up some words or whatever, but you know, most of the words, most of the languages, the stuff everyone else is using. Speaker 1 That's actually some fire, Harold. That's fire. Because if you actually think about it, bro, that's like that's what happens in like the UFC today. Like they'll be like a striker, like a bunch of strikers will hold belts and then the wrestlers will come through like evolutions like there and there's new style. The styles and the training techniques have to evolve for a couple years, guys on the outside and then people start training for the champion, you know what I mean? And then? Speaker 2 Eventually. Speaker 1 Yeah. And so that that that's literally a perfect analogy for literature. But what's interesting, I and I could, I wanted to ask you this too, is that, you know, it feels like we've been in this weird drop off, like it feels like since the boomer Gen. Xers kind of dropped off. And obviously there's people like you. It feels like those conversations, those rivalries, those things that isn't necessarily happening as much, you know what I mean? It feels like we're not in that flow. It feels like the like the the UFC, the WWE, like it shut down for a while and like we're like, yeah, like trying to like figure out who's the champ, Like who are we? Like what living Author? Like I, like I said, I was telling you earlier, I, I don't feel like I'm going after George Saunders, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. I don't, you know, I feel like the random idiot. Speaker 2 No, I'm coming for his neck, bro. Saunders. Saunders can get it. I'm coming for his neck. Yeah, Yeah. Speaker 1 Exactly. Do you, But do you feel that energy though? But toward any like, I don't know, it's kind of interesting. I don't feel like a lot of these heavyweight living authors like Chuck Polonick. I don't feel like Bret Easton Ellis. I don't. I don't feel anything. Speaker 2 Yeah, I, I think as the cultural capital of a writer has diminished so much that, I mean, you know, I, I do think something is happening where for a while, like especially to be a literary male wasn't cool. Like it was cool. I mean, there's ebbs and flows of cool with everything. And now it's becoming cool again. You know, some people tell me that's just like, that's it's just in New York. That's what my editor said. Like the rest of the country don't think literature is cool stuff. But I actually don't think that's true. I actually think it is proliferating everywhere where it's cool to be into literature again. And so the literary renaissance, you know, things are things are might would be happening. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I mean, it really is happening. Like, dude, like there's like I've, I've been in multiple states, you know, I've been like, it's the, the, the, the, it's, it's definitely changing. What do you think, Harold? I I'll put you on the spot, bro. What do you think we need to do to create a literary renaissance? What do you think the steps like as a collective, like, where are we going wrong? People aren't reading across the board. Literary fiction, poetry in the dumps, basically, you know, where where are we going? Speaker 2 Wrong here. Well, I, I do think that you're on to something in terms of like the writer trying to build a persona and that's how he's going to attract people to the work. You know, I mean, I do think that it's important to actually have serious work that you're attracting people to. Like if you want to be a real writer, like you should really spend some time and trying to make the best novel that you can write. But doing things like, you know, I mean, again, this is theorizing on what you yourself are doing, like putting out essays where you're working in public and doing the podcast where these things don't take away from the work. If anything, they benefit. They do benefit the work. Like it's not in any way taking away from it, but still you're giving something to people and allowing them to connect with you in some ways. You know, I guess like talking to you for an hour is an hour I could spend reading or whatever. But I, I do think this kind of stuff is useful to, because you know, people aren't just going to read your book if you're just sitting around twiddling your thumbs, you know, and if you care about your work and you care about literature, then you think that people should read your work, you know, so you, you got to do something to make it happen. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, exactly. And it's sad. You know, there's a lot of resentment about that too. Like what do you mean that these dudes could sell 10 million books and just fucking sit around, you know what I mean? Like, and I don't have to do that. And that's, and that's what's really awesome about you, bro, is that like, you know, this was, you know, this was a very controlled novel. This was like very like, and I don't want to say controlled, but like it was very like, OK, we're we're we're we're dealing with an author here that thought about this and actually put like there was not very much. Like I don't even, I'm not critiquing it at all. I'm just like, you know, there's almost nothing. I felt like there was like, no major hang up. So I was like, yeah, this is just a novel. If you love it or hate it, you basically have to admit that this guy like sat down and like put a lot of effort into this and like, he's standing behind something, you know? Speaker 2 I mean, it's a thing with like, you know, I, I use Emily Dickinson as an example where she was just, you know, she was futzing around on her little desk for her whole life and no one was ever going to read her work. But someone made it possible to like someone allowed you to read her work. They proliferated her work. And so either you do it yourself or someone else does it for you and there's just not people doing it for you anymore. So you can't wait around and let someone do it because it's not going to happen. So, I mean, you know, we would have lost Emily Dickinson a time, maybe because she wouldn't want to, you know, hop on the the chat. But and that would be unfortunate, But you know that that is a that if, if that's the life you want to live where you just want to write literature for yourself and and you get satisfaction from that, then that's beautiful and you can get satisfaction from that. But you know, I, I am vain and, you know, hungry for worldly rewards and to, you know, I, I hope less so with each passing year, you know, But so that's why I do these. Speaker 1 Things There it is, Tower of Babel. You just contradicted what you're saying earlier. Speaker 2 I know. I mean, you don't heed No one heeds their own warnings. No one heeds their own warnings. It's looming over my head. I I should always be aware of that? Speaker 1 Yeah, that's well, and that's, and that's what's sad, like, first of all, and that's, you know, and that's like what I've like sometimes I'm like, fuck Ian. Like you pick the weirdest thing. Your whole job basically now, outside of my own writing is like, I'm trying to turn the biggest introverts into mild introverts. They're like, I was trying to get like, this is like getting like a fucking fat kid and saying we're climbing Everest, bro. Speaker 2 Like, let's go. Like we're gonna. Speaker 1 You know, it's like Jesus, like, yeah, it's hard. And so that's why I feel like though seeing people like you, it's like, wait, this can be easy. This can be fun. This doesn't need to be like, yeah, they're the book is serious. When you put out the book, like you said, this is I'm putting my name on it. This is a serious thing. This is my legacy piece. This it is what it is. But when you hit post on sub stack, when you get on the podcast, it doesn't matter. Speaker 2 I'm just thinking, that's all I'm doing. I'm just thinking, you know, and I'm sharing my notebook with you. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, I mean, that's that's basically the message everyone. What one one thing I want to ask you 111 last thing, what do Why about the literary renaissance do you feel like it's going to You know, there's basically 2 opposing ideologies right now that on one side that we have to clear the lane, clear everything from the past, take everyone down, make sure we should on David Foster Wallace and Frank Herbert and Emily Dickinson. We have to give them the boot so that we can have room to talk about the Harold Rogers. Yeah or the other side of the aisle more of like the elevation type. We talk about these people and then compare them to Harold Rogers or whatever and we put them in discussion with Harold and stuff like that. Where do you? What do you? What path do you feel like is the most potent? Speaker 2 I, I, the way I feel is that I am, I want to be a part of the tradition, the tradition, you know, this, all this human thought, this great human thought is so valuable and has sustained people for so long and it sustains me. I just, and to me, it's an easy thing because I just love it. I, I just love literature And that's why I write, because I want to be part of the conversation. I don't want, you know, that's the number one reason I write. I want to be a part of this tradition that I love, you know, and that's it. And it's just a continuous of my reading. That's all the writing is. It's I'm reading. And that that's the best way to read is to write with it. You know that that's you're just completing. You know, you're talking to these people that that have left these, you know, monuments to their consciousness. You know, that sounds like grand in some way, but that's, that's what it is like. That's why I think literature and especially the novel is the greatest art form is because there is nothing else that is such a record of a person's consciousness than a great work of literature. Dead stop, you know. Speaker 1 100% like it's crazy like you literally are like so deep in their mind. Speaker 2 I know it's, you know. Speaker 1 It's weird. Like, I feel like I know you at like a really weird level after like, you know, reading your book and reading the post. Like it's kind of odd. I'm like damn, this is crazy. Speaker 2 And I think when I was saying that, like I was done writing about myself, it was like this anxiety about, you know, like a good friend read my novel and he can just, he knows me so well that he can see some of the things that I don't want to reveal, but he can see them. And then it's just like you feel too, too vulnerable and I felt too vulnerable and I reacted against that. But it's like you, you, you reading it, you know, probably never know. Like the the thing I don't want you to know from the but yeah, maybe you will. But you know, there's secrets all over the place. Speaker 1 We know, we know your search history, bro. We know we've cracked it now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and, and you're 100% I'm. I'm with you bro, because it's you know, and the other thing, and This is why you being out with your people, not with your people, but with, with the readers, is that like, I feel like the takedown crowd in general is like they, they don't actually connect with the. I feel like if you are in the conversation of great thought and then you have your great writing, you have your piece. And then you connect that with the reader and realize that there's humans who are like real people that are smart and like they and dumb and idiots and UPS drivers that like your stuff and like you. And it's like, wow, this is like a, a crazy cycle that we're all flowing through, you know, and it's like, wow. And like, I feel like it's just like the the emotional and logical conclusion. If we like want to be in this great thought that we love our love, the readers love the entire approach. And then we should. We always want to keep providing, you know. Speaker 2 Yeah. And that's something like why I like I started recording an audio of every all of my essays so that people can just listen to him because, you know, I mean, a lot of times I'm doing goofy punctuation stuff and this and that. But if you just listen to it, there are no barriers to entry, right? I did that. Some people, like my dad could engage with my work, you know, because it's he don't read like that, but he listens to he listens to this shit. You know, he's a bookie from Ohio, right? You know, he's not, he finished last in his high school class, but he, he engages with all my stuff, you know, because the the audio like removes some barrier to entry and connected with the person. Speaker 1 And that's another thing Harold's done. I know. Like, I've listened to your stuff on audio before too. Like everyone put it on audio. It's so easy to like record it, even just use your phone. Like even if it's not that bad, you'll make it more accessible. Speaker 2 Yeah, definitely 1,000,000%. I feel like if you post it on sub stack you you should record the stuff that you're writing and then put the audio in there. Speaker 1 Yeah. Like that's, that's like, that's like, it's like, yeah, like that's just that it has to happen. All right, Harold, I'll let you get off to your beer drinking your post post interview anxiety right now. We're going to discipline. Maxing is over the beer. Maxing is on right now. Speaker 2 Oh God, yeah. Final Thoughts and Promoting Harold's Work All right. Do you have anything else you want to get off off of your chest, man? Anything you want to. Speaker 2 Nah, I think I, you know, I enjoyed this conversation, Ian. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Thank you, man. I know it's a little bit a little bit all over the place. Everyone go pick up the book. We're going to talk again. Me and Harold are going to talk again in November about this book. I'm going to do a full launch for him. We're going to give him a full the full independent WWE treatment, all eggs and eggs and all, even if it we'll think of something, bro, Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Think of something, bro. It's going to get I mean, yeah, anyway, we'll think. All right, see everyone later. I'm going to let Harold go. Peace out, everyone. Have a great day. Go check out Harolde book his podcast. It'll all be LinkedIn. The description below at the end. All right, Peace. Speaker 2 None.