Listening to the Genius of Oscar Peterson (ft. Christian McBride & Kelly Peterson)

- The time Oscar got fed up with Buddy Rich. Oscar's got Buddy Rich up against the wall. Buddy's feet are dangling, he's like, "I'm sorry, Oscar, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man." The stories I heard from those tours, I mean, it could be a sitcom now. - So let's rewind further back. - He's a child prodigy. - Well, Oscar would listen to his sister, Daisy, practice her lessons, and then he could do it. - Would there be someone that he was looking to, you think, musically, and said, "That's it." - When he started getting a little bit cocky, his father came home with a record one day and said, "I want you to listen to this." And it was an Art Tatum record. And Oscar said, "Oh, yeah, that's great. "Who are those guys?" His dad said, "That's just one man, and he's blind." - Norman Granz had this idea that jazz shouldn't only be in clubs, it should be in concert halls. Oscar was a central figure in those tours, as was Ray Brown. - But you have to actually learn the rules before you can break 'em. - Say it louder. You gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules. - That's right. - You gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules. - Yeah, I'm expecting we're talking about one of my favorite subjects. - Yes, we are. - Okay, good. - Oscar Peterson. - That's correct. - So there's a new box set. This is the only one in the world that's sitting right in front of me here. - May I? - Please. - Yeah. - Please. - Look at this. - I have not seen this yet, so wow. - Wow. Dig the book. - Oscar taking a selfie before selfies were a thing. - That's a very cool one. - Cool, cool picture. - 1972, the Seattle Space Needle. - Wow. - I gotta get a picture like that. - I can't wait to get into this subject. - I wanna learn as much as possible from the two of you about the songs, the man behind the songs, some of the musicality that you're hearing, anything that stands out to you. - May I announce the disclaimer now? - Yes, please do. - Shout out to our dear friend, the great pianist, Benny Green. Benny Green, is an Oscar Peterson scholar. He should be in this chair. But Benny, I'll do my very, very best, brother. - Benny also knows much more about Oscar's recorded catalog. - How many records did Oscar make? - I know, over 200. - Benny probably knows all of them. - Benny knows everything, everything. - One of the most prolific artists, recording artists of all time. - Yeah. - So before we start playing anything, can you guys just introduce yourselves? - I'm Kelly Peterson. - I'm Christian McBride. - Okay, let's just start with a song. What is this? - That's "Tenderly." - Just the first couple of notes. - Oh, yes, that one I know. - A lot of people made that song a classic. I mean, it really is a jazz standard at this point. Nat King Cole has a great version of it. It's hooky. I mean, there's hundreds, probably thousands of recordings of this particular song, but this song was also very special in Oscar's career, right? Would you tell them that story? - Yes. Yeah, Oscar used this as a signature song for many years at the beginning of his career. And so on tour, Oscar would be on tour with Jazz of Philharmonic and his, Oscar's trio would play, but also there would be the jam session and Oscar's trio was the rhythm section for all the, the horns and everybody. And they, on this particular tour, had been messing up on Bill Harris's solos every time. And it was just a fluke that it was happening. Well, Bill Harris got kind of upset about it, but he was very quiet and calm. And one night they were, I think they were in Italy, and the huge audience and the trio's on stage. And in the wings, Bill Harris, took one of those great big busman's trays and started stacking all the glasses and coffee cups and cutlery from backstage all on it and put it on top of the stage hands ladder. And so the, and the crowd was going crazy over Oscar's trio. And Oscar came off stage to take, you know, after taking his bow and Norman said, "You have to go back out there, Norman Granz. You have to do an encore, but this time Oscar, go out and sing one." And Oscar was going to sing, he would occasionally sing, "Tenderly." So he said, "Okay, all right." So he went out and he was going to sing "Tenderly" and he started, he did the intro. And then he, you know, very quietly sang, "The evening breeze caressed the trees." And Bill Harris went, "Boom." And the tray went clattering with everything down while Oscar was singing. Norman Granz came running backstage, "What happened?" And so, but it was pretty funny. - Just to destroy Oscar's encore. - Right. We tease each other all the time and do things like that, but it was, you know, it was, it was payback. - So you know about those old Jazz at the Philharmonic tours? - I would like to know about them. - Norman Granz, who was probably one of the greatest impresarios in the history of the music. He also managed Oscar, right? And he started Verve Records. And he had this idea that jazz shouldn't only be in clubs. It had to be in concert halls. So he came up with the idea of Jazz at the Philharmonic. He would take the leading musicians of their era and take them on tour and do a jam session. And Oscar was a central figure in those Jazz at the Philharmonic tours, as was Ray Brown, who was Oscar's main sidekick. And my second dad, much later in life, Buddy Rich would play on those. Roy Aldridge, Lester Young. Charlie Parker, a lot of people would be on these tours. And the stories I heard from those tours, I mean, it really should have been, it could be a sitcom now. Like the pranks that they would play on each other. - Oh yes, a lot of pranks. - You know, Ray Brown tells me about the time that they unlocked the wheels on the piano. So Oscar's playing, the piano's rolling down into the audience, you know, or the time, you know, Oscar wanted to get back at Ray and he detuned his bass right before they went on. So he goes on stage and plays and it's like, "Hey!" You know, the whole band's looking around like, "And the time Oscar got fed up with Buddy Rich?" You know, Buddy was, he was the spark plug. - Yeah. - And wasn't one to shy away from confrontation. And there's this great story that there was some knocking and, you know, furniture moving as the NBA guys on ESPN say, you know, when Barkley's talking about, beating up Shaq, he's gonna be some furniture moving in here if you don't stop, right? So apparently there was some furniture moving and they were, somebody said, "What's going on in there?" And they go back and Oscar's got Buddy Rich up against the wall like this, and Buddy's feet are dangling. He's like, "I'm sorry, Oscar, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man." They're like, "Oscar, don't kill him, don't kill him." So yeah, those were some great, great stories. - Yeah, I wish I'd had someone sort of recording Oscar, telling those stories, Oscar and Ray, when they were together and with Norman and with Herb Ellis. And so I wish I'd had those because they're just incredible stories. - Is it a true story that Norman was up in Montreal for something and he hears like music playing on the radio, on the taxi, and he tells the taxi driver, "What is that? Take me to that club." - Yes, that is a very true story. It sounds like it's made up, but it's a true story. Norman was in Montreal advancing Jazz at the Philharmonic concerts that were coming and he had heard from a couple of the other musicians who'd been in Montreal and heard Oscar play about Oscar, but he'd never, he heard Oscar's recording. - Yeah. - That was more boogie woogie and Norman wasn't keen on it. - Yeah. - So he was leaving Montreal. He was in the taxi on his way to the airport and he heard a trio being played on the radio. And he said to the cab driver, "Could you let me know what radio station that is? I want to find out what record they're playing because I like that piano player." And the cabbie said, "Well, it's not a recording. It's coming live from the Alberta Lounge. It's the Oscar Peterson Trio." And Norman said, "Well, forget the airport, take me there." And that was 1949 and during the summer. And Norman walked into the club and met Oscar and said, "I think you should come to New York when we're playing Carnegie Hall this year." He said, "And you'll know if you're gonna make it or not." - Yeah. - So they made the arrangement. They worked it out. And then because of the union and because of the rules about visas and all of that, Oscar said, "Well, what am I supposed to do?" And Norman said, "No, just tell them you're coming to be a guest. You're gonna be in the audience and we're gonna make you sit in the audience. And then I'm gonna bring you up on stage as a surprise. So we don't have to deal with any of that, you know, government stuff or anything like that." - The old workaround. - The old workaround. - What does that mean, coming to New York City from Montreal? As a career sort of pivot point. - It was huge. - Yeah. - Oscar, the story he told me was, he wasn't quite sure if he was ready. - Yeah. - But Norman said, "No. come now, you need to. And so, so Oscar thought, okay, this is, this is my opportunity. I'm going to go and see how it goes. Well, what happened is the reviews the next day were all about Oscar, like the whole Jazz of the Philharmonic group that was there. Now the reviews were about Oscar who had come on stage and played two songs and his career from that point took off like a rocket ship. So let's rewind further back before we get to New York in Montreal, childhood, learning how to play the piano, practicing six, seven, eight hours a day, winning a prize, the National Music Prize in Canada at age 14. It was a radio prize. Yes. From CBC radio. So he's a child prodigy. Right. Well, and he started, his father was determined for all of his children. So Oscar and his wife. And he was determined for all of his children. And he was the undisputed heavyweight champion of the piano. And a lot of people still regard him as that. He set a standard so high. You watch old videos of Art Tatum. You listen to his recordings. And it's just mesmerizing how he could hear and play all of that. You know, and just like Oscar said, you know, who are those guys? You know, even when you're watching the video sometimes, you're still like, how is he doing that? And so in terms of ideas, harmonic knowledge, you know, melodic shapes and just pure technique, you know, just the speed and the accuracy. And Art Tatum was generally recognized as the king, the undisputed king. And really, the only person that's really gotten that level of worship is Oscar, rightfully so. From what I understand, Art Tatum himself, I know he loved Dr. Billy Taylor and Oscar. Those were like those like his guys, you know, say, yes, they're going to carry on my legacy. Just fine. So it's interesting that you mentioned he heard that record and said, I got to take a step back. You're right. I can't. Maybe this isn't for me. I love when that happens to young cats. But then wait a minute. OK, let me try and do that. And it's almost like you you hear something that you like and admire and you try and imitate it as much as possible. And then through that, you start to find your own voice almost on the other side of that. Right. Exactly. I want to go. In 1956, Stratford Shakespearean Festival. There's my pops. Yep. This is called Falling in Love. Falling in Love with Love. So who's pops? Who is this? Who are we listening to? That is my my hero, Ray Brown. You know, Ray Brown was. Would you say he was Oscar's alter ego? I think that's fair. I think that's fair. The two of them were just inseparable all the time. And yes, foils for each other. Yeah. Right. That feeling that Oscar had when he first heard Art Tatum, I didn't quite have the same feeling. But when I first saw Ray Brown perform live, it really blew my mind. Because it was the first time I'd ever seen an upright bass player. And I went, oh, so that's how it's supposed to be played. Now I get it. You know, just unlocked my whole my whole brain, you know, and to hear that that pulse, that momentum, the way he could drive any size band, you know, be it just the two of them in a trio. You know, with either Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis and then later on Ed Thigpen and later on with Jeff Hamilton or, you know, and then playing in the big band, you know, just like Ray Brown was a 18 wheeler. Yeah. You know, that groove, that pulse. That reminds me of a story that Oscar and Ray both told from the early days, from sometime in the 50s. They were booked to play a club in L.A. I don't remember which one at that time. Yeah. As a duo. They were doing a lot of duo concerts together. Ray probably told you this story about how when they arrived and the club owner said, well, where's the rest of the band? And Ray looked at him and said, this is it. It's just the two of us. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no. We need to have a big band. And Ray said, listen, the two of us make a whole lot of music, way more than any band could. He wasn't lying. He probably said it differently than I did. Without drums, how do they work? How do they work together to sort of fill that? Well, you know, just because you don't have a drummer doesn't mean you shouldn't have strong time. Yeah. You know, if someone says one, two, one, two, three, four, I always feel like all great musicians have developed their inner drummer. You know, Oscar could make you groove without a bass player and without a drummer because he had great time. He knew how to feel the groove. He knew where the pulse. He knew where the pulse was. And as a bass player, that's probably one of three crucial elements. You know, you have to have good time. So if the drummer lays out, no one. should miss the drummer, you know? And I think that, uh, in that era before, before jazz became sort of, you got the green light to become more expansive before you got the green light to make time elastic, you still had the mirror, sort of the big band pulse, the, the, the small group pulse. And, you know, so by the mid fifties, uh, everybody was still swinging hard. You know, everybody was still trying to mirror the, the propulsion that you got from a big band, you know? And, and during the bebop era, they basically were just, uh, smaller versions of big bands, you know, they still had the same sort of driving pulse. And, uh, you know, as a bass player, uh, a lot, every bass player had that at that time, but Ray Brown just, he, he, he was the man. And he and Oscar had very much the same sense of time, right? They, they were, they were so tightly tuned into each other and, and just had that, that same sense all the time. So it worked really well and kind of now I you're the musician, not me, but my understanding was really that a lot of times it's the bass player who sets the time instead of the drummer that you rely on. I'm the bass player. Don't tell Jeff Hamilton. I said that, please don't tell Jeff. No, Jeff, I don't mean it. Yes, she does. And I second that. Jeff, it was before you were in the group. I ain't nobody worry about no Jeff Hamilton. Hey, hey, hey, bite your tongue. It's so interesting that jazz musicians seem to find, figure out these partnerships and then throughout period. And then they shift and people lock in with each other. It happens, I guess, in a lot of music, but it seems like in jazz history in particular, these iconic, why do you think these two like just clicked in? They clicked immediately. And when you do, it's like, this is working, let's ride this. It's forever. And they clicked in me. When Oscar went to that concert at Carnegie Hall in 1949, Norman wanted him to play solo. And Oscar said, no, I play with a trio. And, and, and Norman said, okay, you can have Ray Brown, but you can't have a drummer. And the two of them immediately locked in and they became friends instantly. And I guess it's when you have that same, it's the personalities also. And you have that same sense of what your goals are, how you feel about the music, but also just in general in life, they were good friends. And that grows out of that. And then that makes the music even better. And all the time that they spent rehearsing and all the work that, for instance, Ray and Herbie and Ray and Ed did on their own, a wave outside of the trio, Ray and Ed and Ray and Herbie would spend hours and hours rehearsing arrangements. And that's why Oscar's trio, especially with the, with the, with the with Ray and Ed, sounded like one unit. And that's what Oscar wanted. There was nothing about wanting to be a star, wanting to be the leader and have the sidemen. It was, they were a unit. I did some, when I did the liner notes for the, you had me write a blurb for the, on a clear day release. And I did some, you know, a little bit of research and it was like between 1960 and 1965, the Oscar Peterson trio made, I think, nine albums and it was all different material. And I thought, and then the Baker's Keyboard Lounge recording came out. None of the songs on that recording are on any of the other recordings from that period. So it's like, how much new material were they rehearsing? I mean, they must've played together literally every day. Like, Hey, let's play the song. Okay. Let's play the song. And then like the set list changed. The set list changed night to night to night for like the, the entire duration of that trio. Like how can you even remember all that? They must have hundreds of songs in the repertoire with arrangements, not just jamming them, you know, like. Right. It's those arrangements that they worked on that they, they would, well, after when the trio was playing at the London house in Chicago and they'd play it, they'd finish the last set at three o'clock in the morning or something, they would stay at the London house and they would stay in the club, right. And rehearse until five or six to work on the arrangements and to work on everything. I asked my big band to do that one time. They looked like they wanted to break my head open. I said, well, y'all don't sound good. We got to stay in verse. You know, but it was, they just, they were intent on being the best that they could be and making every performance better than the one the day before. And, and they were also on tour all the time. They were doing their own trio tours, but then they were on tour with Jazz of the Phil. So they were on tour almost all of the year. So they were playing every day. That's when Oscar stopped practicing. Oh, I heard it. Hit me. It's Night Train. You know that. I heard that G7. So this record, this is like a great starting place, potentially for someone to get into Oscar. Definitely. And where a lot of people I think do. Yes. What, what was his most popular, his best-selling Verve record? Do you know? Was it West Side Story or, or this one or? I really don't know the answer to that question. Yeah. This one would definitely be one of the best. The top ones, because it is one of the most popular. The Stratford album though, also was really an important record and they loved that one. Yeah. Yeah. He's playing sort of slower or with more, there's more space maybe around it from some of the earlier songs that we heard. He's not playing the way that he played fast and with the boogie woogie. Well, nobody played fast all the time. I mean, there's, there's plenty of, there's plenty of recordings of Oscar leaving plenty of holes, you know, and, and playing, you know, pardon the pun, tenderly. Yeah. But I just find people in general, particularly when it comes to jazz, that's a natural tempo. That's like the natural human tempo. So when, when people hear and feel a tempo like that, and you just leave some space, that's, that's why Kind of Blue is so, so popular, you know, the whole album doesn't get past a certain tempo. There's lots of holes. People can digest it, you know, and you hear that tempo and the blues, the groove and the blues, like you can't go wrong. You just can't go wrong. So that, that entire album is just a blueprint in, in groove. 50 years. 50 years. Oh, man. Well, I'll read through this. What's he, what's, what's happening? What's he doing? He's swinging. He's swinging hard. That's what he's doing. And that's why I think it doesn't have to all be, you know, lots of notes and real fast. It's, it's what the, what each piece is and where it comes from. And then you, you get that, it's that swing, that sense of swing that is just, it's always there. But you described more about the music. But that, that melody is just so simple. I mean, you know, you don't really have to be a piano player to be able to play that. You just say, okay, just play these two notes. You know, Duke Ellington, C jam blues and nice tempo, those breaks. And again, Oscar's time. You're like, when the, when the band makes the little break, the time doesn't break down. You know, Oscar's just right in the pocket. See, now you got license to, you know, be floaty in the middle of that hole. Now the time lands wherever it lands. That's cool too, but not for this. You got to lock in for that one, baby. And that's why you're listening to it, reacting the way you are going. Yeah. Yeah. That feels good, man. You know, that feels so good. That's really all that matters. As long as it feels good, you know, even if you do something, you know, sort of abstract, as long as it, the mood and the feeling of it links with something that makes you go, it's cool. I just find that there's a lot of excuses you know, people call bad time artistic and I'm like, No, you just have bad time. There's a very, very big difference. Well, I'm deciding not to play the changes. No, you can't play changes, apparently, you know. And I think really good musicians know the difference, you know, because I listen to somebody like Mary Halverson, right? Now, this kind of music is not something that you would expect to hear from her, but I guarantee you any amount of money, because she's got good time, she knows how to play her instrument very, very well, and you can tell she knows what she's doing, you know what I mean? As opposed to a lot of skaters out there. You know, jazz gave license to a lot of skates. They're selling skates in jazz. It's kind of like if you're an abstract painter and you're Jackson Pollock, like he knows how to color in the lines. That's right, yeah. And then everyone else is just splattering paint, but you have to actually. learn the rules before you can break them. Say it louder. And once you can break them, you can go back and. Yeah, say that again. That's really important. I mean, I'm just trying to reiterate what you're saying. You got to learn the rules before you can break the rules. That's right. And what was that thing you said about the bass earlier? That's the number two. I don't have to say nothing. Y'all got it covered. You should speak. This is yours. This is probably Oscar's most well-known, beloved, and iconic composition. And that's the actual original version. He composed that song in the studio during the recording of that album. They needed one more song to complete the album. And Norman said to Oscar, OK, so I want you to write something. And Oscar said, OK. And he told Ray and I just, you know, I'll start. And then I'll tell you when to come in. And that was Hymn to Freedom. I don't think he realized. Well, I know he didn't realize for a long time. It was 2002 when he finally realized how often that song is played by other people and sung by choirs all over the world. A year after. A year after he wrote the piece, Harriet Hamilton wrote the lyrics for it. Martin Luther King adopted it as the unofficial anthem of the Civil Rights Movement. When I was first starting to see Oscar and he played it in concert one night, because I grew up here in the U.S. during the Civil Rights Movement. And I said to Oscar, oh, you played that song from the Civil Rights Movement. And I think I've told you this story. And he said, yeah, I wrote it. And I said, oh, yeah, get out of here. Because I thought it was just a standard. I mean, it was so much ingrained. It was like a public domain song. It was like a public domain song that it was an old spiritual or something that it was so deeply ingrained in my consciousness. And he said, no, really, Kelly, I wrote it. And I said, OK. Well, then. Oops. Wow. But it is just. It is just such a significant piece of music. And I think every year it becomes even more so. And as we, you know, it's a it's a wish for a better world. It's amazing that listening to it now, everything that it carries with it. But it almost is like, did it always have that before? Did it did he bring it to that? And then it. Hard to say. Right. I mean, he just. When he decided when he was thinking about what he would write for that record, he knew that that Norman Granz loved the blues and he knew that Norman loved kind of spiritual music and all this. So he thought, well, I want to bring something like that to this. And then he just started with that simple, simple melody. And I I. So, no, I think at the beginning it wasn't that it was going to be that big. And there was there was no Oscar. Didn't have any thought that it would be such a major composition. But because I think maybe because of its simplicity and because it's just it's pureness, that it just reaches so many people. And it's also important to point out that this song was written before it really started to unravel in the 60s. Right. So it was almost sort of. You know, for him to be that aware, you know, before it really is, this was what, 1960, 1962, 1962, right. So there there was, you know, Martin Luther King had not composed a letter from Birmingham jail yet. You know, he had not been stoned in Chicago yet. You know, the Black Panthers in the way that we know them had not been formed yet. So for him to be that aware before. Before it really spun out of control. That's it's it's pretty heavy. And because he was Canadian. Correct. That's right. Right. Although he had, although he had had the experiences of touring in the United States and in the southern United States where he was not allowed to stay in the same hotels as the white musicians and where, you know, Norman Granz worked. Norman Granz refused to play to segregated concert halls. And he Norman really. He really used jazz to break down those barriers. And he, that was the thing he was the proudest of is he's no, I'm going to, I'm going to break down the barriers of segregation, um, through using the music. And that's what he did. So Oscar had experienced that and had had some of that during all of the 1950s. So he was aware of it, but you're right. The civil rights movement. Wasn't really, really kicked in yet. No. And then when Harriet. And then when Harriet Hamilton wrote the lyrics that are also just quite simple and straightforward the following year, um, that's what it really started to take off then with lyrics. Did he go to church? Like, did he grow up going to church? Because obviously you can hear that, that influence, that, that gospel influence. Absolutely. He was, they went to church all the time. His mother was extremely spiritual and prayerful. And that influenced all of us. All of the family, but they, he grew up going to church and actually the Peterson kids would often, they would be at church all day on Sunday, all day. And then the kids would sort of be putting on recitals for, for the congregation after the services were over. So. We got to pay homage. Thank you. Wheatland from the Canadiana suite. Which Oscar was the first long form, really piece of music that Oscar wrote paying tribute to, as he put it to Canada, the, the country I love my homeland. So there were movements for each area of the country, but Wheatland, I think is one that he played so often and it's such a beautiful song. And so it's really one that people will be familiar with. I wonder if he would, composing that would be thinking about his dad riding the train across the country, right? Didn't you say that he would, he would be gone for. He would be gone for two, it'd take a week to get to Vancouver and a week to get back. Crossing Canada. Yeah. And looking out the window maybe and those images you would see. I think you're probably right. I mean, we never talked about that, but I think probably that was in Oscar's mind. Makes sense. As his dad was going across the country and he may have been, had that in his mind as he was composing this music. This is from the, uh, Canadiana suite of 1965, I believe. And this was the last official recording of Ray Brown with the trio, uh, before Sam Jones and Lewis Hayes became the new trio and everything on this record, uh, March past, uh, so many gems on this recording. And, um, this is a song that. I still play all the time with, with Benny Green, uh, because we love the song so much. And, you know, the entire time we've been talking, uh, you know, we, you talk about the kinship that, that Oscar and Ray had. Uh, I feel that Benny and I have that and, you know, I had the relationship I had with Ray and Benny had the relationship he had with Oscar. So it's kind of like we're keeping the thing going. And I think that's wonderful. It's, it's very special because those connections mean a lot personally. And we both married Canadians. Yes, exactly. We did. You and I both. Um, but those connections enhance the music. I think they, they make it better. Yeah. I think about all the years with Oscar and being on the road and how, how exciting it was to be with his group. whoever was in the group, It was just always joyful because they loved being together. And then they would go out on stage and play. And just every night was a celebration. It was just marvelous. And there are times when I see other groups that play and I can tell they don't have that connection. And then the music doesn't have any impact. Yeah, we actually like to glorify inner conflict. You know, bands that fight for whatever reasons. We like that, you know. I don't. I want to see the bands that are tight and they get along and they have fun playing together. If you don't have fun, I mean, just Oscar was so full of joy and so was Ray. Yes. And they had so much fun playing. That's all they wanted to do. And it was because they had fun and they loved playing together. And you can feel that in the music. You can see it in videos. You could see it if you were ever there in concert and listening and watching and all of that. And I see that with you and Benny. I see that with you and other groups. And when I see a group where I can tell that they're doing that inner conflict thing, it's like, why? If you guys. If you guys aren't having any fun. Why are you here? Why do you think I'm, you know, I don't want to be here. If you're not having fun. It's a little tiny thing, but it makes me like roll on the ground laughing every time. So in the documentary of Oscar, Songs in the Key of Oscar, there's a part where Ray's group with Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, Jeff Hamilton. They're playing at the Old Dakota. And at that time, it was in St. Paul. So they're wired. You know, Oscar's wired. Ray is wired. I think they forgot at one point. So they're playing a song and it's right before the bass solo. And Oscar looks back at Ray and says, hey, you want me to walk you? That means, you know, do you want me to play the bass line in my left hand during your solo? Hey, you want me to walk you? And Ray says, huh? I said, do you want me to play the bass line in my left hand during your solo? I said, do you want me to walk you? I love that they left it in the film. It's just, you know, it's like two old guys, you know, really, huh? It tells you something, too, about the relationship. Yeah, yeah. Like just the connectivity. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And I love those behind-the-scenes moments, like during the gig, you know? Mean to me, why must you? We had to hear Ella at some point. Oh. I knew. And I knew from, actually, from the first couple of notes, I knew what this was. And which recording. How's that? Not bad. He worked with everybody. So many different iconic artists. Tell me about the relationships that he had with some of these folks. Well, Oscar and Ella, especially. Yeah. Were very, very close. Ray Brown's ex-wife. Yes. The pool was so small. It was so small. It was so small. It was so small. It was so small. Yes. And just, it was one of the most special relationships that Oscar had with the musicians. And he, actually, all of the musicians on Jazz of the Philharmonic had tremendous respect for Ella because of her talent. And they would actually ask her for the note to tune to. So, you know, which was really incredible. And they loved her. And Oscar and Ella. And Ella played concerts together. And they would also do tours where Oscar would play with his group and Ella would play with hers. And then they'd come out and do a few songs at the end together. It was very nice. But this recording is Ella and Oscar. What was his nickname for Ella? Lady Fitz. Lady Fitz. Actually, a lot of those nicknames came from Lester Young. Ah, she, right, right, right. But Lady, they all called her Lady Fitz. In teasing, one of, I can tell a teasing story. And then I can tell a really heart-wrenching story. The teasing story is on tour one time, Ella was going out to, with Jazz of the Philharmonic, Ella was going out to do her set. And Oscar had been to a prank store during the day. And he had found a fake ink blot with ink for a fountain pen. And he went into Ella's dressing room and said, I need to write some letters, Fitz. So, is it okay? And I need to write some letters. I need to be quiet. So, is it okay if I just sit in here and write some letters while you're doing your set? And she said, okay. And Norman Grants had just given Ella a beautiful white ermine fur coat. And Ella said, but Oscar, just be careful of my coat. And he said, okay. Yeah, sure. No problem. No problem. No problem. So, then before she comes back to the dressing room, of course, he sets up the ink blot on the coat. And then he's lying with his head down on the. On the desk in the dressing room and crying. Fake crying, of course. And Ella comes in and says, Oscar, what? And he said, oh, I'm so sorry, Fitz. And he's, you know, really milking his remorse and everything. And she's crying, saying, my coat. Oh, but Oscar, it's okay. And she wanted to make him feel better. She was just such a sweetheart. And so, she was upset about her coat, but she wanted to make him feel better. And then, of course, he had to tell her it was a prank. And she was like, what a jerk. Excuse me. At any rate, they laughed and it was okay. The heart-wrenching story is Oscar was in the middle of recording an album in Toronto. He'd had one day in the studio. And it's a Telec record with Roy Hargrove and Ralph Moore that he was recording. And the next morning, well, cut, several years earlier, Ella gave Oscar a present for his birthday. And it was a gold pendant with a lion based on a Rodin sculpture. And it's about, I mean, it's a pretty big, heavy pendant. And Oscar always called it his medal. So, the second day, he's getting ready in the morning to go to the studio. And he asked me to get his medal for him. So, he said, I just feel like I need to wear that today. And I said, okay. So, I went out of the bedroom and went to get it and came back just as the phone rang. And it was Norman Grant's calling. To tell Oscar that Ella had died. I just thought he had to have known. And that's why he wanted the medal. It was pretty intense. When I think of Ella and Oscar together, it really is two of the literal greatest at their respective crafts. Because anyone who ever worked with Ella Fitzgerald could tell you, like, she just, what she was able to do, literally no one else was able to do. She had perfect pitch. She had perfect time. And the way she could scat, I still don't think people really get it. You know, it's not just sort of a random spur-of-the-moment thing. Like, she literally could hear the harmony. So, as the chords would change, whatever she sang matched the harmony, you know. And so, for that reason, I was always under the impression that Ella was not able to do it. I was under the impression that Ella played the piano, because you just can't hear changes that go by that fast and not just, you know, when people say, just hear it, you know, it's like, right, just hear it, you know. That's like, just, you see a 100-mile-an-hour fastball coming at you, you say, oh, just hit it, right? You know, so you just can't just hear it all the time. But Ella's accuracy, her harmonic accuracy was so dead on. It's like, she had to play piano. And I heard people saying, no, she didn't play piano. It's like, that's impossible, you know. How could she hear all that and not play the piano? And you said the musicians would get their tuning notes from her? They would tune up to her. And she had no formal training. That's insane. It was just, she had no, it was all innate. There's a really funny interview that Oscar did. He did a TV series, a few different TV series of interviews, and one with the BBC where Ella was the guest. And she was talking about the talent. Yeah. And she was talking about the talent show that she did when she was a teenager. And, you know, and, and, and, you know, and Oscar said, well, you know, how, like, when did you know you wanted to be a singer? When did you start doing all of that? And, and she said, it was at that talent show. She said, because I, I didn't really think I was going to be a singer. She wanted to be a dancer. You know, and then she was at a talent show and she had seen some people doing really great dancing. And she thought, oh no, I'm not going out after that. And the man said, well, you got to go out there, go do something. And so she started to sing and the audience just went crazy. So, and she won the 12, the, the talent show. And along with that, a very shy, gentle nature and a dear, dear friend, a loyal friend with all the musicians. They all loved her. And Oscar and Ella had a very special connection. So it was, they were really close. You had mentioned Oscar going. So I heard a story, I bet him and Ray went together. probably ray told me a great jazz it's a philharmonic story about that same joke shop you know the guys would uh uh shoot dice yeah on the break so ray went bought some fake dice you know hey guys let me get in right so he somehow switches the dice you know and this you know sweets edison lester young ella everybody you know you know i don't know what's the lucky number 11 11 or 7 or yeah yeah yeah so he you know first time you know he gets an 11 and everybody's like oh you know beginner's luck you know 11 again he's like man look at this dude ray said he he rolled a third 11 and everybody got quiet it was he said roll and roll again he rolled fourth 11 and ray said all of a sudden he was surrounded he just heard and he said he was there was like a half moon of knives pointed at him lester young was like put the real dice back before i cut you i'm sorry i'm sorry put all the money back too that's when sweets would say i'm gonna give you a wasserman you know what that is i don't know uh dr wasserman's first name but he conducted open heart surgery so that was his code for him to give you a wasserman some old cats man they had all kinds of great references last one night westwood playhouse 1986 so as he got older what was he what did he care about musically what did he care about outside of music well here you're hearing the very tender romantic part of oscar and this piece of music was actually composed on the bandstand in washington dc at a club called charlie's georgetown when neil senning was taunting him to write something and so he did um but so um but in 1986 he he was um 61 years old so he wasn't really getting older yet but he's he just kept growing and and the different musicians who he worked with expanded what he played and what he composed and how he wrote i mean i think that's one of the things that i think is really important about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically about musically apparently that he played there were there were influences you know ray and herbie and ray and ed influenced certain things and then neil's brought in a whole different kind of capability and influence and with the way neil's played and then joe pass added just volumes because of his talent with what oscar played but i would say that then after that like starting in the 90s and after his stroke and as he started to really feel that he was getting older and determined not to let the stroke end his career he played for 13 years after that but he became more reflective about his life in general he he cared very passionately about the music always when our baby girl celine was born then that gave him a whole different sense and he got to experience a lot of different things and he got to experience a lot of different things and he got to experience a lot of different things and he got to experience a child of his growing up and for instance taking her first steps and because he had been on the road so much with his other family while his other children were younger he had never witnessed that and he was at a stage in his life where we could all travel together as a family so we could stay together and that was important to him so family the state of the world and being dedicated to trying to make the world a better place and always always the humanitarian that he was and the strong advocate for human rights those were all things that were important to him i've got nothing to add seriously it's just uh it's a thrill to be here with kelly and to discuss the legacy of oscar peterson uh i think every musician strives to have that level of mastery on whatever instrument they play uh to be able to hear something create something in your mind and to have it come through your instrument that's that's basically the highest level of of mastery you know because you can always think of things but they might not translate to the instrument to your hands or to your breath or whatever it is you you do but very few people could do that and uh oscar obviously was was one just to combine that that sort of mastery everything you're talking about just with like spirit spirit of generosity of just caring about the thing and and being present and wanting to do it bringing the joy to it and sharing that and the joy of working with other people like it's the combination because some people have the passion but they don't necessarily have the the skills and some people have the skills but they don't have that same just joy and care in it the joy and the care about an important word that you used there was generosity i think that's really important and we hadn't said that before and that's really it's that to me here in this conversation that's what i heard i think that's what's particularly special about jazz musicians because people in jazz don't do this because we're trying to maintain a certain status level we're trying to maintain uh record sales or a particular pop level image and somehow if you don't do that you're unsuccessful the success in jazz is making sure the music is always on the highest level and it's always on the highest level and it's always on the highest level possible and you can't really do that if you're selfish that's right and that is what it was and for oscar it was always the music connor you hear that thank you for coming thank you so much thank you very very much that was really fun it was fun thank you spotify for the extra support this week it means the world to us if you aren't already watching on spotify you should because spotify is awesome all right see you next time peace the track star podcast is a presentation of public opinion created by me jack coin kieran coin and henry cornaros produced by hayley sobel edited by hayley sobel theme and original composition by kieran coin mixing by devin klein our agent is joanna orland at uta thanks for listening see you next wednesday