Listener Q&A: Am I Being Belle-Burdened?

Hello, I'm Simon Mayo, and I'm Mark Kermod. What a great episode we have for you lined up. Mark, what are you doing on the latest take? It's a packed show. We have reviews of Heart of the Beast, Brad Pitt, and a dog, her private hell, the new film from Nick Winding Reffen, a Bournemon in the Devil, a documentary about the worst film ever made, and sense and sensibility with our super-special guest, gorgeous George McKay. Don't miss a single second of the latest take. Hello, it's Elizabeth Day from How To Fail Here. My next guest is the pioneering British fashion designer, renowned for his signature classic with a twist aesthetic, Sir Paul Smith. They say, "Oh, Paul's job, yes, and of happiness." That's my job. What a great job. I do close as well. Listen to How To Fail, whatever you get your podcasts. What's up, zippers? Welcome back to Financial T, and today the T is boiling. They're gonna say I tried to sip it, and burn my damn tongue, because it is hot. And we're trying something new on the show, because you guys send me the most insane money dilemmas, and frankly, they deserve more than a DM response. That's probably the best part about being Mrs. Dow Jones, is that I get crazy emails. And so today, we are getting into three real listener stories about love, money, and pre-naps. Obviously, I've changed names. I've changed identifying details, because I always protect your anonymity, but the situations are real. And if you want to submit yours, email, money at Mrs. Dow Jones. And remember, I will always keep it anonymous. And honestly, these stories remind me why I am obsessed with pre-naps to begin with, because yes, a pre-nut protects you financially. But honestly, sometimes the most valuable part of it is what happens before you sign. Like, you really learn a lot about your partner, and how they view money, and how they view you. And it really forces you to ask questions. You might otherwise avoid that can lead to a marriage failing. Like, money is the number one reason people get divorced. Like, what's mine? What's yours? What do we owe each other? What happens if one person stops working? What does fair mean in our marriage? Like, I don't know. I feel like some people walk down the island, never actually tease these things out. And then it really hurts them. And it creates these like weird relationships that people get stuck in. And sometimes you learn things out the person you're about to marry that you really needed to know before the wedding. That make you realize, like, okay, wait, should I be marrying them? So yes, today we have a woman set to inherit, say it with me, nine figures whose fiance wants a finder's fee on her investments in saying, we also have a woman considering moving across the country for a man who makes three times her salary, but still wants everything to be 50/50. And then lastly, we have a fiance with the craziest prenup clause on the table I've ever heard. And you guys I've heard like every prenup clause. Like, I've heard people be like, we got to put in the prenup. You can't gain weight. We got to put in the prenup. How many times your in-laws can come? This beats them. It's absolutely jaw to the floor. You're going to freak out. So yeah, we need to talk. Let's get into the tea and reminder, if you have your own juicy financial dilemma, you want me to share anonymously, of course, on the show, send it to money and Mrs. Dow Jones.com. And please don't forget to rate and subscribe and review this show. And if you leave your name in the review, I'm going to choose people and call them out at the end of the show to send some gifts to. So it'll be really fun. But yeah, let's get into it. This is financial tea. Okay. At my voice reveal, will you please give us a rundown of Samantha situation? I need to know what's going on. So Samantha and her fiance live in Toronto. She is 30 and he's 35 and they've been together for five years. So not nothing. 30 and 35. Okay. I feel like when you're in your 30s, 30 and 35, like that's a lot of time to commit to a relationship they are not sure of. But what's going on with their financial situation? Their financial backgrounds individually are really different. Samantha comes from pretty extreme wealth from many generations back while her fiance who will call Alex does not. So Alex had a quote unquote normal middle class upbringing with the complication that he went to a fancy boarding school and always sort of operated in a milieu that he couldn't really keep up with financially. Got it. So it's sort of like a Taylor Swift Joe all-win situation. Yes. So fast forward to their adult lives. Samantha receives payments from her trust fund monthly and is set to inherit nine figures when her parents and her uncle pass away. Nine figures? Yeah, I know. That's so many figures. Between 100 million and one billion dollars for listeners. Yeah, like aren't doing the math. Even the low end of that is pretty good. We'll take yet. Career wise, she has a steady and successful career in finance, but she's not making crazy money. And it's really the generational wealth that is on the table here. Okay, got it. And then what does he do? So he's an entrepreneur and he's trying to build a small business and it sounds like it is successful and it's growing, but it's also slow going and it's taken a ton of resources to build. So there's not a clear evaluation on the business yet. Could take off and make a ton of money, but it could also falter. And I think it's worth noting that she said he is ambitious and hardworking. So it's not like he's just looking too exclusively right on her co-tails. Okay, so he's not a scrub, but he also doesn't have like a major cash flow. He's sort of just like pound in the pavement. Yeah, she's signing up for a good amount of risk with him regardless of her situation. So now comes the prenup. Like Bellburden, she is required to have one from her family, but the conversations with her fiance about the terms have gone kind of sideways. He says that if his business becomes successful and if you were to sell it one day, he doesn't want to share any of those profits, but he is happy for her to pay the majority of their lifestyle costs because she's accustomed to a lifestyle he can't get afford. And this manifests in her paying for fancy hotels, nice revocations, more and more. Whoa, wait, I'm just trying to swallow that. So this is sort of Bellburden, he's saying that he is going to cut her out of any future earnings, but that he's cool with her paying for things now. And like basically like creating this great lifestyle for them. Exactly. And beyond that, he also said that if she makes any investments that he has suggested or introduced her to, he essentially wants a finders fee. Stop. Yeah, stop. He wants a finders fee with his fiancee. And he wants that in the prenup. Holy. Okay. So she says she has a good lawyer. She won't be allowed to sign anything that could really undercut her financially, but with really bothering her isn't the money, it is his mindset and his approach to partnership. So she wants to know your thoughts on if she's being unreasonable, if there is something fishy here, and then what should she actually, you know, materially do to deal with the situation? Emma, can you break down point by point in the prenup what he wants to change because this is crazy. And I feel like we need to go through it line by line. Yes. So he wants all of his potential earnings from his company to stay with him. He doesn't think that she should be entitled to any of them. So he is down to use her money to fund their lifestyle, but when it comes to his money, he's saying hands off that's mine. Exactly. Damn, that's cold. That to me is such a no-no. And that's actually exactly what Bell Burton's husband did, where she had a trust fund. And then he said, all my future earnings are just for me. And I don't know why she signed it, but we got a good book out of it. So I'm going to say that's a major red flag. I think that it's totally fine and acceptable for her to pay for their lifestyle now. If she's the higher earner and she wants fancier things, I always talk about that. Like if you are in a wealth gap friendship or wealth gap romantic relationship, whoever wants to live the more baller lifestyle should pay for that because otherwise you're putting the other person in this precarious situation financially. I'm all for that, but I think that it is of a really ungenerous spirit and makes me feel like he's out to get her, that he's not going to share his winnings with her, but wants her to share her winnings with him. And beyond that, the next point is the kind of like fine nurse fee on any investments that he recommends her to or introduces her to. So she would be putting her own money into the investment, but he thinks that he should get a cut of those. A fine nurse fee, are you kidding me? This is your wife, not Goldman Sachs. I mean, this might be the part where I start to understand why Samantha has a bad feeling. I had one from the beginning, but now I'm like, girl, we definitely have a bad feeling because it's not really about the amount of money even. It's just about his accounting mentality. Like he's saying, if my business becomes worth 50 million dollars, that upside is mine, but if I introduce you to an investment and you make money, I deserve a piece of your upside. I'm sorry, but you cannot privatize your wins and then invoice your wife for helping her win. And listen, I actually believe in fair, not equal in partnerships. I always talk about this. Like if Samantha wants to fly business class and he can only afford economy, I don't think it's inherently problematic for her to pay the difference. I do that in relationships all the time. Like if she wants a $2,000 night hotel room, she can pay for it. She has substantially more money. It's probably a $20,000 night hotel room. Go off girl. You're basically a billionaire, but I think there's a big difference between saying, I can't afford this lifestyle. So if you want it, you'll need to contribute more. And constantly looking for ways to financially benefit from your spouse as well. Like that gives me the egg. Like if I introduced my husband to a great investment bless his heart wherever he might be, I don't want 10%. I just want our family to be richer because we're a team. And so that's why I think Samantha is right here that the prenup is revealing something much bigger than like what's going on on the piece of paper. She really needs to figure out whether they fundamentally agree on what marriage means financially. Like, are we two independent economic entities constantly keeping score? Or are we building a life where we both have skin in the game? And I think that's what's so heartbreaking about his notes to the prenup. Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada. It's not a coincidence. One after the other in the same house. Is this bad luck or something more sinister? The worst investigative mess I've ever encountered. From Sony Music Entertainment, this is what happened to the Harrison's. I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What happened to the Harrison's is available now on the binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to the binge can listen to all episodes, all at once. Add free. When you put your body in the hands of a surgeon, you assume your doctor will do you no harm. I'm looking at the surgery board for tomorrow. These people are ****. Cricket doctors have launched their most ambitious fraud yet worth over $1 billion. One doctor says my kickback was 25,000 and the other doctors go and while we only got 12,000. From Sony Music Entertainment and Western Sound, this is Doctor Billions. Coming October 1st to the binge, listen wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so if you were to give actionable advice to Samantha, what would you say to her? I would say Samantha, stop thinking about if everything he's asking for is reasonable and look at the pattern. Like, what are you learning about him through these conversations? That's what we need to listen to because I think that we're learning a lot about this man and that should really impact if you want to go through with this. So first of all, I would say keep the wedding caused. You don't need to make a permanent decision about the relationship today, but you absolutely should not move forward until this feels resolved and I would say like, I would proceed with a lot of caution. And then second, I would figure out your non-negotiables without him in the room. Like, I'm sure you have a great attorney sit down with your lawyers, decide what stays yours, what becomes both of yours. What are you willing to pay more for because you have more like a vacation here and there who cares, you know, but where do you draw the line? And then I would let your lawyer negotiate it. Let the lawyers be the bad guys. You don't need to personally fight every battle. I think it's going to be exhausting for you and like that's what you're paying them for. Let them cook. Let them do that. And then third, I would sit down with him and try and agree on the financial rules of your marriage, not just the prenup because like you paying more for a nicer hotel isn't necessarily unfair. You have more money and you want the nicer hotel fine, but you definitely both need a system that both of you believe is fair. So you're not renegotiating who owes who money and who's paying for what every five minutes. Like that's just going to cause you a life of financial stress. And then lastly, I want you to ask yourself a harder question. Like if you knew nothing about the numbers and only knew how this process has made you feel about his character and his idea of partnership and how he views you, would you still feel excited to marry him because girl, this guy seems like a scrub run. Like your lawyer can protect your inheritance, but your lawyer cannot make you trust your husband. And I feel like he's not trustworthy. And the other thing that I feel like you're not leaning into is that you have financial freedom, girl. Like you have so much money. That means you have the luxury of taking your time and making this decision because you want to be married, not because you need it. You know, for hundreds of millions of years, women had to marry men to have any sort of economic opportunity of a freedom in this role. But you have that just because you were born rich. So take advantage of it. Don't shoot yourself in the foot just because you're trying to hit these stupid societal goal posts of, oh, I need to be married. I need to have a partner. You know what's a bad idea? Having the wrong partner, having the partner who's just in it because they see dollar signs when he looks at you. I want someone to see hard eyes when they look at you. And I believe that person's out there, but you've got to say goodbye to the scrub and keep on looking if you're going to find them. Okay. So that point is actually a really good transition into our second storyline. So we have a listener, Allison, who is a 40-year-old woman living in LA. Background is she had a very financially traumatic upbringing where she was never really secure. And that's become paramount in her adult life. So she's a steady job in media. Or a steady as a job in media can be makes a little over six figures, but obviously LA is an expensive city and having no backup, no safety net and minimal savings. She still feels really behind her peers. How, wait, remind me how old she is. She's 40. Okay. So about a year ago, she met her now boyfriend on a trip to New York. Okay. Josh lives in New York. He makes around $300,000 a year, which obviously significantly more than she does. And he is relatively low expenses. Despite that difference, he expects them to split everything 50-50. So dates, trips, all split equally. Okay. Don't love this already, Emma. I feel like you knew exactly which months to choose for me today. And this is because I think that the man should always pay. You guys know I believe in fair, not equal, but just like, doesn't really sound that fair to me. Like if he is making 300K a year, which is significantly more than her. And she is making a 100K a year. So like, why should they be splitting everything equally? If he makes 3X her salary, he should be paying 3X more of the expenses. Okay. Well, then you're really not going to like the next part. Oh God. So he lives in an apartment in New York, which is parents own. He pays them $3,000 a month in rent. She is planning on uprooting her life in LA and moving to New York to live together. She was assuming that that 3,000 would be split evenly. And she was game to split it evenly. So 1500 each. But it turns out he actually wants to start paying his parents more and double the rent. So each pay 3,000. Stop. That is insane. She's like, I'm moving to be with you. And he's like, great. I see money signs in my eyes. And I'm going to like, milk you for all your worth. Are you kidding? And they're talking about getting married. They're not engaged yet, but they are talking about what that would look like and what that pre-nut process would look like. And I think she is trying to get ahead of things and be financially responsible because. Yeah, because of like her background, because of her background. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like she starting off has a lot of financial trauma from her family. So like, just to begin with, I think something that I've seen so much in my work is like when you are someone who has a lot of financial trauma from childhood, your relationship as an adult in a perfect world would help heal that, right? Like you would be with someone who made you feel really safe financially. If you grew up in a way that made you feel really unsafe. First of all, Allison, I want you to ask yourself why this dynamic might be attractive to you. Something that I talk about in future rich person a lot is how you have to sort of go to the root of your money relationships. Like when you were seven years old, that sort of begins your relationship with money. And then that impacts you into adulthood. So, you know, someone like Josh, who has made a lot of money, controlled with his money might have initially felt very safe. And maybe his rigidity with finances even read as responsibility because you came from such unease, but responsibility and generosity are not the same thing. Like someone can be amazing at protecting their own financial security, but also make you not feel financially secure in the relationship. And that sort of sounds like that's what's happening here. So, I mean, it's complicated because obviously I want you to find love, but I think you need to do these three things before you even think about moving. First of all, you need to have a conversation and be like, I'm thinking about uprooting my life to build one with you. And I feel like we need to approach this as partners, not roommates, not roommates who are making sure everything is exactly 50/50. Like don't argue him into being generous. Just pay attention to his instinctive response. That's sort of the theme to all our responses here. You can't change the person, but you can information gather and then figure out what you want to do with that information. Second of all, I would say do not move until you've agreed on a financial system that actually feels fair. Do not. Because like, yeah, he makes significantly more than you. You're taking a relocation risk. And I would not agree to a 50/50 rent split, especially when the increased rent is going to his family, and they've been fine all these years without that extra rent. Like what's going on here? And then third of all, which it sounds like you didn't have in your last relationship, is you need to make sure you protect your ability to leave. Like you need an emergency fund. You need to make sure that you can get yourself out of there if things go awry. Because you already know what it feels like. when money takes away your choices. So I just would say you need to be really cautious that you don't voluntarily put yourself in that position again. That's really what I am worried about here. So our third couple, I thought this was an interesting situation because it deals with a part of the prenup that I don't think we actually talk about a lot, which is like a behavioral clause. Yeah. So this couple is in their mid 30s, they live in San Francisco, they both work, he makes 210k a year, she makes 170 and they're working on their prenup. They want to have children, both them have been clear about wanting to have a family, but he wants it specifically written into the prenup that she has to keep working after they have kids and she cannot be a stay at home mom. Whoa, that's crazy. I've heard of crazy prenup clauses. I've never heard of that. And so she wrote it because she doesn't want to do it. She wants to be a stay at home mom. She wants the option. She essentially does not know if she's going to want to keep working. She thinks that she wants to have multiple kids, if she is able to and she would like it to be an option on the table. She also expressed that she is just kind of like freaked out that he would want to put something like that in a contract. Okay, this is actually crazy because I've never heard of this like, and I've heard of such crazy prenup clauses like people put all kinds of lifestyle clauses into prenups. I've seen infidelity clauses, confidentiality clauses about what you can say publicly after a breakup, those are big with celebrities, social media privacy provisions, agreements about pets. Sometimes I've even seen people try to address things like drug use or gambling or what happens with embryos created during IVF. That's super common. And yes, I've also seen people try to put some absolutely unhinged stuff in there like weight gain clauses. How often you're supposed to have sex. How much time the in-laws can visit like wild things. But whether those provisions are actually enforceable is a completely different question. And they honestly are really hard to enforce. But regardless, people really try, which is why I feel like she should stop thinking of a prenup as this horrible document predicting your divorce. And more, just think of it as like forcing yourself to write the operating agreement for your marriage, which can actually be really helpful as long as you both are on the same page. And it seems like your biggest disagreement right now isn't actually about money. It's what does our family look like after we have kids, which is a really big conversation and one that you want to be aligned on. Like if you want to stay home and he expects you to work, honey, that is the tea. Like you got to figure that out before you get married, not after there's a baby. And one of you realize you signed up for a completely different life. So I think you need to embrace these conversations and really tease this out. And honestly, girl, the part that I would really dig into is why it's so important that you keep working. Like I'm not saying it's good or bad to keep working. But like, why is he so obsessed with it that he wants to put it in the prenup? Like to see think financial contribution is what makes the marriage equal. Is he scared of being financially responsible for you? I think that's probably it. Or maybe does he resent the idea that you could stay home while he works? Or is this genuinely about wanting you to maintain your own financial independence, which by the way is for you to maintain? He doesn't need to be part of. But all of those are very different motivations. And I also think it's really important to know that stay home with children is work. People say it's more work than having a job. So if you two mutually decide that you're going to step away from your career to raise your family, let's be crystal clear that you will be making an enormous economic contribution to your household that you just aren't getting a paycheck for. Like you're saving your guys costs on childcare, you're maintaining the home. Like that all has money, dollar amounts tied to it. So I just personally will be really uncomfortable with him essentially saying, like I need my wife to earn money in order for our marriage to feel fair to me. I don't know. That just feels really out of pocket and sort of like a weird value. Like he is absolutely allowed to want a marriage where both partners have careers. I got that. But you're also allowed to want a marriage where you can stay home with your children or simply the flexibility to decide. You know, like I always think that I want to stay that I want to keep working forever. But like what if I have a kid and like I don't know, I change. I want to have that flexibility. And you shouldn't just assume that eventually the other person is just going to come around. Like there's something you have to figure out because this isn't really a pre-nut problem. I think that this is more a discovery that maybe you have two completely different visions of marriage, which is why I love pre-nuts. It's really hard to gather this information, but isn't it so much better to have it and then be able to make the choice versus going in blindly. And then you're just like hit with a ton of bricks and you're in this really crazy situation where maybe you have kids and you're economically tied to each other. And then it's a lot harder to walk things back. Don't fall for sunk-class fallacy where you're like, oh, I'm ready and too deep with the sky. I got to walk down the aisle. Be aware that you have options and you can walk away if this feels really wrong to you. Hello, I'm Simon Mayo. And I'm Mark Kermode. It's a packed show. We have reviews of Heart of the Beast, Brad Pitt and a dog, her private hell, the new film from Nick Winding Reffen, a Bournemon and the Devil, a documentary about the worst film ever made and sense and sensibility with our super special guest, gorgeous George McCoy. Summaring what took you so fucking long to get here. Add free. Okay, did you guys like this format? Because we get so many emails from you with your financial queries. If there's one thing I've learned as Mrs. Dow Jones is that finance really is personal. They don't call personal finance for nothing. And so we are all in these crazy situations with money with our relationships and we need some help. So I think it would be really fun to do this again. If you have a financial situation that you would like us to cover email money at Mrs. Dow Jones dot com. Money at Mrs. Dow Jones dot com. And maybe I'll be on the next Q&A who knows. And I just want to thank these ladies for writing in because these are crazy situations. And I'm hoping that we also get some updates and that this advice was helpful because it's obviously very easy to give advice, but it's hard to take it. And I understand how hard it is to even like find someone that you want to be with let alone Mary. And then you got this like financial influencer telling you to cut ties. And I don't know, it's a lot to take. So I understand if this was a hard pill to swallow, but I also think that whenever you get information from people about how they are financially instead of judging it or being like scared of it, just take a breath and try to look at it at face value. And that's really a good way to figure out your next step. So I hope that that was really what came through with my advice. Okay, I love you guys. Thank you for being sippers. Please rate, subscribe, review the show. If you put your name in the review, I'm going to start reading some of the reviews at the end and giving away some of the gifting that I get as an influencer to people who review. So who knows, you could rate and review the show and then find yourself with some cirems from Peter Thomas Ross or maybe like some other amazing beauty products and candles and whatever other gifts we've got going in here. I'll send them to you. So I really appreciate it. See you guys next week and hope that you're staying rich. XOXO finance girl.