Lindsay & Patrick Clancy: What Was REALLY Going On?

They put the I love you in family. That's us with Cora and Dawson. They were picture perfect. As a husband, living with Lindsay over the years, what kind of a mother was she? She was very dedicated. She did everything. She started reading them books at three months. And she made up songs for them. Then it all went wrong. Did you ask her anything else? I said, where are the kids? And what was her response? She said, they're in the basement. In the months leading up to the children's deaths, were Patrick and Lindsay Clancy growing apart? I want to connect with Pat again. I know he needs it. I need it. I'm terrified because I'm terrified of the relationship. She was afraid. She was afraid to be alone. And. She actually asked if she could sleep with me. We're taking a closer look at the relationship between Patrick and Lindsay Clancy from beginning to tragic middle and end. This is Scandal, presented by Law & Crime. I'm Sierra Gillespie. They were living the dream. A beautiful couple, an idyllic near seaside home, a family to be envied. How did it go from this? She liked being a nurse. She loved it. I think it was her dream. To this. I knew he was gone. The relationship between Patrick and Lindsay Clancy is taking center stage as the world over watches the gavel to gavel coverage of this monumental case. Lindsay, a once bright and loving labor and delivery nurse and mother of three, is now accused of murdering her young children, strangling them to death with exercise bands. The Commonwealth of Massachusetts alleges that Lindsay's actions were, "premeditated and calculated," carrying out cold blooded murder. Her defense, though, disagrees. Arguing Lindsay was not of sound mind at the time of the death, so she can't be held criminally responsible. Essentially, the Massachusetts version of the insanity defense. They don't deny she did it, but they say she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. There are many facets of this case that have the internet talking from potential conspiracy theories to inconsistent testimony and at the very least the shocking details that are truly heartbreaking to hear. But throughout this trial, there's one thing that really has come to the forefront, a curiosity about Patrick Clancy. On past episodes of Scandal, we've walked you through the conspiracy theories relating to his testimony, a complete timeline of his whereabouts the day the kids were killed, but now we're taking a closer look at Patrick and Lindsay's relationship as a whole. Here's where it stands right now. And were you previously married to a person named Lindsay? Yes. And you're divorced now, is that correct? Correct. Do you see that person in the courtroom today? Yes. Could you point to them and describe something they're wearing? She's wearing a pink shirt. Record reflect the identification of the defendant. But long before their relationship ended, it began more than a decade ago when the couple was introduced in Boston. Where did you meet the defendant? Um, in South Boston. And when was that? I think it was, um, May 2013. And how did you meet her? Through my cousin. And, uh, would it be accurate to state that your cousin had been college roommates of the defendant? Yes. And at some point in time, did you start dating? Yes. And around what time was that? July, 2013. Patrick's cousin, Kristen Walton, introduced the pair. She later told the New Yorker, they never really had any bumps in the road. On one of their first dates together, Patrick took Lindsay to fly a kite. That summer, he took her to his family's 4th of July party on the beach. His sister, Erin, told a New Yorker, Lindsay was sweet and a little quiet, but just lovely. So if I may, you met, you met Lindsay back when she was in school or was she working as a nurse? She was at the MGH Institute. And the MGH Institute is like Mass General Hospital nursing program, correct? Correct. She had some kind of like an accelerated course or something. Yeah. Had a double major. Yeah. She was a very good student. She was, yeah. And she, at a relatively young age, got her RN and was a nurse at Mass General, correct? Correct. And at Mass General, um, she was a, uh, they call it L and D, a labor and delivery nurse. Is that it? Yeah. Um, do you remember how many years she worked in Mass General? Um, I think she started in 2014. Um, do you remember when she graduated from nursing school? Six months earlier. And were you guys in a relationship then? We were, yeah. By all accounts, including Patrick's, Lindsay loved her career choice. Tell us a little bit about, uh, you know, Lindsay, obviously, the most, um, how did she like being a nurse? She loved it. I, I think it was her dream. Did you say that she enjoyed her work and helping people? Definitely. Yeah. So there's been some commentary here from the government about that she was anxious because she had to go back to work, like she didn't want to go to work, she was lazy, or whatever the case may be. Objection. This is sustained, if you could rephrase that. All right, so I'll strike it easy then, that she didn't want to go back to work, but I believe you said in an answer to the DA. There was a reason that you could see that she was anxious about going back to work, correct? Correct. Now, was she anxious about going back to work, to your knowledge, because she just didn't want to work? No. What was the reason? She struggled to be away from our kids at a young age. Before all that and children were added to the picture, Patrick and Lindsay made another big step in their relationship. Did you eventually move in together? Yes. Do you remember when that was? September 2015. And where did you live? In Quincy. How long did you live in Quincy? One year. And where did you go after that? We bought a house in Weymouth. And how long did you live in Weymouth? Two years. During this time frame, Patrick and Lindsay's life seemed like the American dream. They bought a house, got engaged, and eventually married in December 2016. Their reception was held at a golf club, already decorated for Christmas. While still living in Weymouth, a South Shore city about 15 miles outside of Boston, Patrick and Lindsay began to expand their family. And was that while you were living in Weymouth? Yes. Did you have your first child when you were living in Weymouth? Yes. And what was her name? Cora. Cora Marie Clancy was born on December 24th, 2017. They told us about her birth with Cora. Yeah. Cora. It was, it was a long time ago. It was, it was a bit of a rough birth. Is that right? Yeah. She didn't have time to get an epidural. And she bled a lot. Going back to after Cora was born, do you recall the defendant having any physical issues after the birth? Yeah. And what were those? Um, I think there was a lot of tearing. And she bled a lot. Did it take her a while to recover physically? I would say so. Yeah. I think she bled a lot. I would say so. Yeah. Did she have maternity leave at that time? Yes. Where was she working? Mass General Hospital. And what was she doing there? She was a labor and delivery nurse. At that point in time when she had Cora in 2017, how long had she been a nurse? I, I don't know. I think she was a nurse for a long time. after Dawson's birth. No. Did she seek treatment or tell you she sought treatment after Dawson's birth? Yeah, she got a therapist for a short period of time, but it didn't last very long. The New Yorker reports that Lindsay considered switching her shift at MassGen to the day shift from overnight, but that would almost double her commute, driving 35 miles to Boston in rush hour traffic. Lindsay and I worked the night shift together, and often on the night shift, you get to have an opportunity to really get to know your coworkers and celebrate things that are happening in their lives or support them with things that are not going so well. Lindsay asked a lot of questions of her coworkers about parenting. Simple things is she would poll the nursing staff about monogram lunchboxes, right down to sleeping habits. What questions do you ask? The daycare provider to make sure that you're in the right place. She was often asking her coworkers child care, parenting tips. Lindsay often checked in on her kids while they were sleeping at night. Again, we worked the night shift, and she had the ability to look at her phone and see what CORE or Callen were doing in their cribs, and she shared that with a lot of us. There was one particular night. That CORE was crying. She was probably about six months old, and Lindsay never let CORE cry. She wasn't at that point in parenting, and she was very communicative about that. And CORE was crying on the monitor. It was the middle of the night, and maybe after 10 minutes, she started to call Pat, and he wasn't answering. And she got really worried that one, CORE was crying, but now Pat wasn't answering his phone. So in the middle of the night, she called the police to do a wellness check on her family. During this time, Lindsay reportedly joked about becoming a stay-at-home mom. Patrick told The New Yorker, I'd say to anyone, usually moms, but really moms or dads, that you should have your kids, but you should also have a life to yourself. Patrick testified Lindsay was nervous to return to work after Dawson's birth, but she still made it work. Can you describe for the jurors her relationship with Dawson? I know he was a little kid, but I mean, to your observation, did she love Dawson? She loved Dawson very much. Did she resent him? No. And before they knew it, the Clancy family was expanding again, this time with a second son, Callan Patrick Clancy, who was born on May 26th, 2022. My memory serves that it was a good birth. It was not an easy birth, but I mean, there were no complications. There were no complications. And were both of you very happy with Callan being born healthy? Yeah. Yeah, we felt very lucky. It was hard to juggle three kids, but Patrick testified Lindsay loved all of her children. Can you tell the jurors, as a husband living with Lindsay over the years, what kind of a mother was she? She did everything. And, um. She made up songs for them. Um, I remember she used to make Green Eggs and Ham for Cora. I guess she liked that book. Is that one of the Dr. Seuss books? Yeah. Um, she brought them to music classes. Lindsay's mother, Paula Musgrove, says the same thing. Lindsay was a very loving mother. She was dedicated to her children. She was a fun mother. She was always doing things for her kids. She always wanted to be a mother, have many children, and I felt it was the best thing that ever happened to her. And she would do anything for her children. She was just a loving mother. At trial, the defense highlighted evidence photos from inside the Clancy's home, showing drawings hanging on the wall, the ABCs, kind of things you'd expect in a home with three children. This was the defense's way of showing Lindsay was a good mom. She cared about her kids. And all these photos, by the way, were admitted into evidence. And if you want to take a deeper dive into the entire evidence folder yourself, I've got just the place for you. For behind every major scandal is a paper trail that the public rarely gets to see. If you haven't heard yet, you can go beyond the headlines with case files on the Law and Crime Plus app. This is where you get direct access to raw evidence, uncensored body camera recordings, crime scene images, video recordings of interrogations, and so much more. You can analyze the facts and uncover the truth for yourself. Plus, you get ad-free streaming of all your favorite law and crime and court TV shows. Unlock the evidence room today. Head over to longcrimeplus.com, enter promo code SCANDAL, and start your 30-day free trial. Now, for a time after Kellen's birth, everything seemed to be perfect. Both Lindsay and Patrick were off work, and they spent the entire summer of 2022 together as a family. And did you. Would you agree that in the summer, for example, of 2022, that Lindsay and Pat were active with the kids and were pretty happy? Very happy, yes. Did you observe in the summer of 22 any changes at that point in her personality and the way she was acting with her friends and in society? In the summer, no. And they were having a fairly good summer. Yes. They were posting a lot of social media posts, mostly to Facebook, showing what appeared to be a loving family. You are familiar with, as her husband, Lindsay's, let's say, use of social media, such as Facebook, right? Yes. Can you tell us, would you look at her Facebook a lot in the pictures that she would post? To be honest, no, not really. Okay. Were you able to identify any of her postings on Facebook? Probably. Representative, over the years, over a period of time, I'm going to ask if you can identify this particular Facebook. Yeah, just representative of the Facebook postings that Lindsay would post as the mother of the children. This, for example, would be July. July of 2018. Yep. Can you tell the jurors who that would be? That's Cora. Say June of 2021. Can you tell us who that? That's Cora and Dawson. Again, the end of July 2021. But behind closed doors, Lindsay's mental status was changing. What was the defendant's demeanor? When you returned to work? Increased anxiety and definitely, you know, stressed out. Do you recall describing her as slightly stressed but in good spirits? Yeah. And when she was stressed out, when she was showing some anxiety, how did that manifest? I don't really know how to describe it. I guess it's just any way you can tell that somebody's stressed out. And I don't know, she would say, you know, I'm not looking forward to going back to work. I remember once she said it's just so unnatural to be separated from your newborn, you know, stuff like that. So she didn't want to go back to work? Is that what you're saying? I think she did. It was just a really difficult transition for her. Lindsay was supposed to go back to work, but she postponed. She started seeing mental health experts like Dr. Jennifer Tufts and even finally tried medication. On October 24th, 2022, Lindsay reportedly made a journal entry of sorts to her notes app. It was edited on November 3rd, 2022, but there's no way to tell exactly what was edited. Anyway, it reads, I'm sad and depressed because I am not able to parent my third child like my first. I want to treat any one of my babies like my first, but I know that's not a feasible possibility. I'm sad that I stopped breastfeeding. I feel not as connected with Cal now. I think I sort of resent my other children because they prevent me from treating Cal like my first baby. And I know that's not fair to them. I know that. I was feeling so depressed last evening when Cora and Dawson came home from school. I know it runs off on them, so we had a pretty rough evening. I want to feel love and connection with all my kids. I'm also probably having a bit of an internal conflict because my whole life I've wanted to have a lot of kids. I still don't want Cal to be our last, but I have a lot of figuring out to do before I have another. I'm on the fence about starting a new medication for anxiety slash depression. I just want to feel happy. I want to be able to relax and take care of my kids. And when they go to bed at night, I want to deeply relax and hang out with Pat and then fall into a deep sleep for eight hours, get up and pour hard into myself for an hour and a half. Cal was so very planned and desired. I want to be able to give him all the love he deserves. I guess that's what it's like to be the third child, though. he's not the first third child to ever exist. I think I know he'll be okay, but it's really hard for me. I hate that he has to put himself to sleep. I'm sad I'm not breastfeeding anymore, but I think deep down these are the right choices. The next month, Lindsay sent her mom an alarming text. Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I have horrible insomnia all night, and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety, and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary, and I don't want to be alone. We've reported extensively on the long list of medications that Lindsay was prescribed, took either tapered off or stopped cold turkey. She also met with multiple mental health experts like Dr. Jennifer Tufts and nurse practitioner Rebecca Gelata. At one point, it got so bad that Lindsay was hospitalized at the Woman and Infants Hospital in New York. Now, this happened back in December of 2022, and Patrick's actions the day of her hospitalization have raised some eyebrows. Mr. Clancy, do you remember that day, December 20th of 2022, that she went to that place? How did she get there? I drove her. And do you remember dropping her off? Yeah. Do you remember what her state of mind was to go there? Was she scared? Was she happy? I think she was scared. Do you remember what you did? I took Dawson skiing. And where did you go skiing? What'd you say? At some point in the afternoon, did you receive a phone call? Yeah. Was it from Lindsay? Yeah. And as a result of the phone call, what did you do? She said that you need to come pick me up, and the doctors here want to talk to you, have you come in and talk for a bit. What's more, Patrick has received some flack for leaving Lindsay alone with the kids in the weeks leading up to the children's deaths. Specifically, Patrick testified he went to New York for a business trip for two days. There have been rumors, and let me stress, rumors online, that he was meeting up with someone and maybe even having an affair. These rumors are fueled by the fact that Patrick now reportedly lives in New York, and he's married to a woman based there. That being said, these rumors are unsubstantiated and weren't even addressed in court. What was addressed was Lindsay being alone with the kids even after her mental health diagnoses. It was November of 2022, and you traveled. Where did you travel to? New York. And how long were you there, sir? Um, two nights. And who took care of the kids? Uh, Lindsay. Sorry? Lindsay took care of the kids. Lindsay. So for two days, two nights, a month? Yeah. And a week or so before she killed the children, she was home with the kids for two days. Is that right? Right. Fair to say that you also had your friends that you would do brunch with on occasion, Sundays or weeknights or whatever, guys' night type thing? Yep. And you'd be out with your friends. If she wanted to kill the kids, she certainly could have done it that time when you're out, right? In theory. As opposed to sending you home? Well, if she was sending you on a three-minute trip to CVS and a nine-minute trip to a restaurant, you were away for two days in November and on a number of occasions for brunch as well as skiing, right? You're a pretty active guy. Yeah. Patrick testified. He left Lindsay alone multiple times. That New York trip, brunch with friends, going skiing. And there are a few takeaways here. One, this could benefit the defense. I mean, Lindsay had ample time to kill the kids while Patrick was away if this was premeditated murder. So the defense argues this is premeditated murder. The defense argues this is proof that she snapped and had a psychotic break as she killed the kids when Patrick ran out to complete just a few errands in about 45 minutes. Now, the other discourse here is a closer look at Patrick and Lindsay's relationship. Was Patrick a bad husband? I mean, he knew Lindsay was struggling with mental health and still left her alone with the children for an extended period of time? And just plain devil's advocate here, it is possible that he needed to go away for work. It's also possible Patrick, too, needed a short break from work. Patrick, too, needed a short break from the intensity at home. Maybe he wanted to burn off some steam by going skiing or having brunch with some friends. I'm not here to make that determination, just to report what people are saying online and what jurors may be considering. No one really knows what Patrick and Lindsay's relationship was like except for Patrick and Lindsay. And it's through Lindsay and her purported journal entries that we have some slight understanding. For example, this is an entry about her alleged lack of intimacy with Patrick. And there were a number of other entries that you put in your police report about that. One of which was that I feel horribly guilty about my marriage. I know he needs it. I need it. She needs to get birth control first. She made reference to her inability to have conjugal relations with her husband, right? I believe so. It seems that there were at least some intimacy issues between the pair given the recent testimony from Lindsay's mom. So tell us, is there an incident that came to your mind that you recall that occurred on one evening that indicated to you how seriously she was suffering? There were many. One particular evening that was disturbing to me was that she was afraid. And she actually asked if she could sleep with me. When was that? That was late November, early December. And did she indeed sleep with you on that occasion? She did. Lindsay made note of her mental health issues being the root of her relationship issues with Patrick too. This is another Notes app entry. It was made on October 24th, 2022 and later edited on November 3rd, 2022. And again, we don't know exactly what was changed from the time the note was created to when it was edited. But here's what it said in part. I'm on the fence about starting a new mentor. I want to feel happy, but it would be nice to feel authentically happy and not fake. But I need to feel happier than I did last evening because then I was pretty depressed and not enjoying any of my children. It was really sad. I needed the breastfeeding off of my plate. I'm struggling so hard because I wanted to parent each of my kids like my first. And since I can't, that's depressing to me. This is definitely the root cause of all our problems. Now I feel like I'm not parenting any of my kids the way I want to. And that makes me sad too. All this led up to the fateful day when the children were strangled. It happened on January 24th, 2023. Now Lindsay's defense team has admitted she used exercise bands to strangle all of the children in the basement of her home before attempting suicide. She slit her wrists and throat, took crushed up medications, and jumped from a second story window. She survived the fall but is paralyzed from the waist down. One of the first things we ever heard from Patrick was in a GoFundMe post he made just days after the children were killed. He wrote, "I want to ask all of you to find it deep within yourselves to forgive Lindsay as I have. The real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone: me, our kids, family, friends, and her patients." He later told The New Yorker, "I wasn't married to a monster. I was married to someone who got sick." In May 2023, Patrick relocated from Massachusetts to New York and moved into an apartment in Manhattan. The couple later divorced, and Patrick has since remarried Rachel Dannis, a New York-based doctor who specializes in infertility. And were you previously married to a person named Lindsay Clancy? Yes. Correct. We gave you a closer look at the relationship between Patrick and Lindsay Clancy. And now the question is, will that relationship come to the forefront during deliberations? I mean, what will the jury make of it all? And I want to ask that question and so many more to today's guest. It's criminal defense attorney Nicole Castronovo. Nicole, thank you so much for coming on Scandal with us today. Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be on Law & Crime. Yeah, we're so excited to have you. Your first time on Law & Crime. And let me start by asking you this. I know that you have been covering this trial pretty much since it began. You've been watching it. You've been following it. Were you as shocked as I was about how Patrick Clancy, kind of in the world of social media, online, the internet, has become the villain in all this? Yes, I was surprised by that. And, you know, it's funny. I don't follow a lot of law shows. I mean, I'm doing law all day long. So when I come home, I want to watch, like, Love is Blind. You know, that's what I want to watch when I come home. And so for a case to catch my attention is rare. But, you know, I'm a mom. I'm a woman. And it seems like a lot of that, our maternal roles, our wife roles are really on trial right now. I was surprised to see Patrick become the villain because when I first heard about this case, I just thought, okay, this is going to be a quick, you know, guilty by reason of insanity plea. And it's going to move on. But the fact that the prosecution chose to try this case, they've really, like, aired the dirty laundry that everybody has. And now they put Patrick Clancy in a position where he has become the villain. Because they've chosen to do this, like, public stoning of Lindsay Clancy. I am very shocked that the Commonwealth decided to bring these charges. And, I mean, they've been steadfast from the beginning. They believed that this was murder. They're putting him in jail. on the best case that they can. They actually wrapped it up yesterday. So now we're in the defense's case in chief. But to your point, it has been kind of wild to see people kind of running with these conspiracy theories about Patrick Clancy when Lindsay, the very basis of her defense or her argument here is that she did it. She just wasn't criminally responsible. And so part of this that we're talking about, like our episode today is about the relationship between Patrick and Lindsay. And we got a closer look at all of this in Patrick's testimony. So what did you make of his testimony on the stand? Oh, gosh, it's so hard because I want to be. I don't want to pass judgment on someone who lost three children and their life blew up in a way that is just sort of unimaginable. And so a lot of people commented on him being emotional, you know, not breaking down all of those things. You know, people do weird things when trauma happens. And act different ways. What did strike me, I guess, with his testimony, besides, you know, interpersonal things, all of that is that Patrick Clancy was told not to leave Lindsay alone with these children. And he chose to. And so I think that's something that the nation has kind of grabbed on to, I think, especially women. And I think that's something that the nation has kind of in are really following this case because i think a lot of us have um had a less than supportive partner sometimes postpartum they don't get it you know they don't get how tired you are all of those things and maybe he you know on the best day he just didn't get it but i do think that um that did alarm me a little bit is how much you know lindsay didn't just like freak out and kill the kids and they're talking about you know she tried to conceal this and send them on an errand and all of these things but the testimony that's come out is that she was asking for help she was begging for help when she was having intrusive thoughts she called 9-1-1 she drove herself to the hospital she did all the things she could she was begging for help she was begging for help she did all the things she could she was begging for help she was begging for help she was begging for help she was begging for help she was begging for help she was having intrusive thoughts she called 9-1-1 she was having intrusive thoughts she called 9-1-1 she drove herself to the hospital she did all the things she told her mother she told her husband and you know when he was told don't leave her with these children right now and he did i thought that was the most difficult part of the testimony truly yeah and i mean her mom was on the stand yesterday and she talked about the really intense moment when lindsay was honest with her mother and patrick and said i'm having thoughts about harming the kids like this is just what is going on and so i think a lot of the testimony we've seen has been lindsay being honest she was going to doctor after doctor we saw a lot of medications that she was prescribed um that she really was trying to seek help making journal entries talking to patrick about all of this and he did to his credit he testified on the stand that day lindsay was having one of her best days um i didn't feel nervous leaving her with the kids in that moment but at the same time you brought up a really good point that i think a lot of people are latching on to this case because a lot of women are mothers they've gone through postpartum they realize that generally a man or a partner who didn't give birth they don't understand in the same way you know they're not as tired their hormones aren't going maybe they don't have the postpartum depression or psychosis of all of this and this is the next part you talked about patrick leaving that day but he also left leaving leading up to the children's deaths i mean he went to new york for a couple of days he was known to go to brunch or skiing a lot of people are really zeroing in on that the fact that he went to new york for those two days kind of in the months leading up to this case i don't think that's the case at all do you think the jurors are going to be paying attention to that i do and you know i guess this is the hard thing about like when someone has a mental health episode how many times have we heard about someone who has committed suicide and people have said i was just with them the day before they seemed fine they were laughing they were happy they didn't say anything was wrong and so to say someone's having like a good day versus a bad day you know one he's not a mental health professional but two that's a sad thing and that's a scary thing about mental illness is it's it's not like a physical illness we can see that you have an injury you know someone could be feeling great and feeling fine and maybe that's how they come off but on the inside they're just dying you know and i think saying she's having good days bad days is tough as well because she was a mama of three when you have children you know and you're having a bad day you don't tend to like break down and cry in front of them or have you know everybody's done that but we try to protect our children from what's going on right is there a financial issue going on are mom and dad mad at each other all of that so just maybe because she was putting on that front for the kids so they felt secure and safe doesn't mean necessarily she was having a great day yeah it's i think you brought up such a good point that mental illness is so hard because it's not to your point something we can see like if somebody broke their leg we can see okay they're in a cast that's clear to see but if you are diagnosed with bipolar disorder or postpartum depression or psychosis you can present like you've got your stuff together you can present you know you can still do your job you can still raise your kids and yet in such a situation you can still do your job you can still raise your kids and yet in such a situation you can still do your job you can still do your job you can still do your job you can be battling a really harrowing disease and i think that's really why so many people are interested in this case because so many people grapple with mental health issues myself included i know a lot of our viewers have problems with that and i don't say problems in a negative way again i have all of these issues i have anxiety depression ocd i got it all but i think that's really why people are paying extra close attention here and i have to ask about the jury because a lot of the viewers that i've been seeing have all of these issues but what about the jurors i mean mental health issues are pretty common if they themselves haven't experienced it maybe their partner has their daughter son friend cousin whoever it may be do you think they're going to go into the deliberation room kind of factoring in all of that you know jury jury deliberation is just like that wild thing that we'll never know unless you do it and i've never personally sat on a jury i have told every single client before they make the decision to go to a jury trial um it's like betting on a horse and at the end of the day it's a horse like we can make every educated guess but we don't know what's going to happen we don't know what they're coming in there with um you know jury selection is where the trial is won or lost any experienced trial attorney is going to tell you that and jury selection is really interesting because i don't know if you ever sat through it but you know you see 12 people end up in the box and they start asking them questions or 14 or 15 and they're like i don't know if you've ever sat through it but you know you see 12 people end up in the box and they start asking them questions or 14 or 18 or however many they want to put to be questioned at the time and that's the only time we get to directly talk to the jurors and say you know juror number one have you known anyone to have like any sort of mental illness would this um make you discriminate against my client or would you feel more for the client um and you know you hope that they give you the best answers actually people kind of give you some crazy honest answers sometimes um but you just never know once they get back there what it is they're gonna hang their hat on it's interesting because as attorneys we try our case we live with this case for two three years and we think you know these are our five best facts and it's interesting when someone who doesn't have a legal education necessarily what they zero in on and think is important um i think one one thing that's going to go back with the jury i think is really interesting is her journal entries you know the journal entries when i was listening to them this is the one who really loved their kids like there was one entry that stood out to me in particular where she was just agonizing over like sleep training her baby and do we cry it out and the doctor said that's fine and all of that and how how much she thought about that as a mom how much she felt about it this is someone who loved their children even the day of the incident happened she's sending her husband to go get medication for one of the kids she called ahead to see if they have it to get dinner all of those things um and so i don't know what they're gonna do in there you know i really don't it was an unnecessary parade of unnecessary evidence the fact that we are at what day 14 of this trial yeah week four i think yeah four weeks of this is a long time you know um criminal trials tend to be very short typically a death case is like two weeks i've seen someone put to death in two weeks and so to do this dragging it out when she already tried to just say you know get her insanity plea and move on um i think the prosecution's like shot at the self in the butt they're sending her the jury gets to look at all the exhibits they're going to see your medical records the journal the timeline all of it yeah and and to your point i I actually was there for a jury selection in the room when they were going through voir dire. I saw the jury questionnaire, and it did talk a lot about mental health illness. Have you experienced postpartum? Do you know somebody who did? So I think the odds that someone on this jury has either experienced it or seen someone experience it, I think the odds are pretty high, number one. And number two, I mean, I think we're all kind of Monday morning quarterbacking here, right? Because we can rewatch the clips over and over of Patrick saying, yeah, I did go to New York, and people can speculate, oh, my God, he's married to a woman who's in New York now. Was he leaving Lindsay at the time for an affair with that woman? I mean, the conspiracy theories can run wild. But for the jurors, they can't rewatch his testimony. They saw it. They can look through their notebooks, but that's pretty much it. And they also are privy to things that we aren't in the courtroom. I mean, I will note that my photographer, who's been there every day, he was there for Patrick's testimony, that when Patrick was on camera for the testimony, you pointed this out, a lot of people were saying, okay, he was pretty flat, he was unemotional, he didn't describe the kids very well. But then during breaks, according to my photographer, Patrick was breaking down. He was crying. He was clearly unwell. He was just trying to pull himself together for the camera. And I think a lot of people, the discourse here is that he's a bad dad, he's a bad husband, whatever. But not a killer does that make. He's not on trial here. I want people to remember that. It's Lindsay who is on trial. So is that something, their relationship, that's really what our episode is about today. Do you think their relationship? Is something that jurors would discuss? Does it even matter? I think they're going to discuss the relationship because it was graded out for so long. I do think that, unfortunately, like Patrick is taking the ire of every neglectful husband that every woman has ever had going through a postpartum situation. You know, I've been there. I know a million people who have been there. That's why a lot of us end up divorced after we have kids. I mean, just that lack of presence sometimes and understanding. And, you know, I could also see, like, Lindsay seemed like someone who really had it together. Like, she's an L&D nurse and she's got the three kids and she's, you know, doing her thing. And. But the. The relationship was on the stand for a lot of days. And, yes, the jury sees things we don't. They do get to read back his testimony. So if they have a question, they will be able to say, you know, I want to I want to know what Patrick said about going to that restaurant. Then the court can give them that portion of the transcript. But. I do. I think he didn't do himself any favors in this sense. Is when Kevin Reddington was asking him some very, like, straightforward questions. He seemed very defensive. He seemed evasive. He didn't seem to want to answer the questions completely. He didn't make a lot of eye contact with him, which, again, can be trauma. But. Being less than fully forthcoming. You know, I will say I've seen a jury get turned off when they realize the prosecutor was not telling them the truth. I watched the jurors physically go like this and cross their arms. And so it doesn't matter what side you're on. If someone doesn't think you're telling them the truth and they've had to sit here for four weeks, they may hold that against you. And if they impute dishonesty to you, they might. And if they impute a lot of other negative characteristics. So I did think that was part of his testimony. That just didn't come off well was his defensiveness with Kevin Reddington. Yeah, that's a good point, because a lot of people online, we can take the clips and put it on TikTok or whatever. They're talking about the inconsistencies in Patrick Clancy's testimony. I mean, we had an entire scandal episode about all of that. So to your point, if the jurors go back and take a look at his transcripts and say, OK, what about this? I mean, I really do agree with you that they're going to be talking about their relationship when it comes time for deliberation. A lot had in this case. I mean, the relationship is a huge foundation of all of this. But in the end, it's up to the jurors to decide whether Lindsay Clancy was criminally responsible. We're just going to have to wait and see what happens. Nicole, though, thank you for coming on Scandal and making your long crime debut today. Oh, thank you for having me. I get, you know, you're my very first. You're at long crime. So I got the debut. So we can have that distinction together. But thank you for having me. It's a great topic to discuss. It is just like the case that's just taken everyone by storm. It's kind of wild. It's kind of wild. So I'm really appreciative to talk about it with you. Yeah, thank you so much. And we'll definitely have you back on as this case continues. Thank you. I appreciate it. We'll continue to follow this case and bring you all of the latest updates right here on Scandal. And for complete live coverage of the trial, make sure to tune in to Long Crime where we're streaming this case live with gavel to gavel coverage. And that is where today's episode of Scandal leaves us for now. If you like what you saw and you want to see more or connect with me on social media, you can find me on places like Instagram at Sierra Gillespie. Thanks for watching today's episode of Scandal. As always, I'm your host, Sierra Gillespie, and I'll see you next time.