46: Lindsay Clancy: The Murder Trial That Broke the Internet & Deadlocked the Jury

Before we get into today's episode, I want to give you a quick heads up. If you've been following my coverage of the Lindsay Clancy case, some of the beginning of this episode may sound familiar, and that is completely intentional. With everything that has happened since the trial began, I wanted to put the entire story together in one place. From everything that led us here, to what unfolded inside the courtroom, the absolute media firestorm surrounding Patrick, the jury drama, and, of course, ultimately, the mistrial and what that means going forward, what a retrial could look like, and everything else that has happened. So whether you're brand new to this case, or you've been following it with me from the very beginning, this is the full deep dive. Now all of the trial developments and everything we know as of today included as well. And trust me, once we get into what happened during this trial, there is a lot to talk about. So let's get into it. It was back in January 2023, when first responders were called to a devastating scene just south of Boston. He removed the band's and then the breeze. He continued to scream uncontrollably, five-year-old daughter, Korra, three-year-old son, Dawson, eight-month-old son, Helen. I think I sort of present my other children to hear if they prevent even treating Helen as my first baby. In the encounter Patrick, he yells out she killed the kid. Hello, hello, and welcome back to an all-new episode of 10 To Life with me, Annie Elise. I hope you're doing well today. I have got a major case for you today, one that not only has been highly, highly requested from so many of you, and has been requested for months and months and months, but it's also a case that has people completely divided. Can't seem to agree on it. People battling each other back and forth just a nation that is truly divided. Now, the case that we're reopening today, it's one that genuinely horrified the entire country when it unfolded back in 2023, and it's one that has stayed with a lot of people, including myself. Now, as most of you, I'm sure have been following or have seen on your feed or just have knowledge of one of the most wildest trials of the year has finally officially come to a close, and when I tell you that there were twists and turns until the literal final moments, I mean it. We had a jury that could not reach unanimous decision, major disagreements involving one juror, an emergency appeal to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, and an absolutely explosive final day in court. With so many twists and such a roller coaster, I have never seen anything like that in a trial, so many experts that had weighed in have never seen anything like it. It had everybody on the edge of their seat. Now, if you've been here for a while, or since I first covered it, or maybe you watched that coverage or listened to that coverage, you know, over the last couple of years, but when I first covered this back in 2023, you probably remember that there were moments throughout the episodes where I couldn't even get through it without genuinely holding back tears. It's very emotional, and it's very triggering for a lot of people, and look, I've never been one to keep secrets or try to pretend my life is something different, and so I'll just tell you right now. The reason that I haven't covered this case again in years is because it's been too difficult for me. I can't seem to bring myself to do it because it's a case that involves post-partum psychosis at the root of it, and it's no secret I've told you guys before. With my first born, I suffered extreme post-partum depression, and it was one of the scariest moments of my life because I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know until it got so bad that my mom recognized it, and I ended up seeking treatment, getting on medication, but for anyone who has ever experienced something like that, it's almost indescribable because you're in your mind, and you know that you're battling something that is not reality. But to you, it feels like reality. Even though you're justifying in your mind like this isn't real and this isn't how things are happening, I shouldn't be feeling this way, and you're justifying it and you're trying to be rational, but your mind is working against you, and to where it's in your mind, your brain is such a strong muscle, right, that it turns against you almost. And so for me, when I first covered this case, it was extremely triggering because it was also only a few years after my personal experience with post-partum depression, and I think I also just felt like, you know, I can relate a little bit, not that I ever had any sort of thoughts of hurting my son, thank goodness I didn't, but I had some very dark days myself, and again, it got really bad at some points, and so it's been difficult for me to cover it. That's also why I got so highly emotional in my initial coverage. And again, I haven't ever kept that a secret. I think that there's a huge stigma around post-partum depression, post-partum psychosis, a stigma that needs to just, you know, be exposed and not be there anymore, which I ended up doing a full episode on my YouTube, all about my experience with PPD, because I thought, you know, sharing my experience, what I went through, my exact feelings, the disconnect I felt, the unhappiness I felt, maybe that will help another mother who's going through something, or God forbid, goes through it in the future. And so that episode is still out on my channel. I have no shame in it, you know, aside from that, too, a friend of ours was unfortunately suffering through very, very bad post-partum psychosis. And again, if you've been with me for a while, you probably remember that, because there were points when she sought treatment, inpatient treatment, she ended up leaving AMA, and we did a live stream because we were trying to find her, we were trying to locate her, she had left a good buy note, we were scared for her safety, and I, like, you know, I enlisted the help of all of you trying to see, like, you know, spread the word as fast as possible. And her situation was different than mine, it was more extreme, arguably, yes, but also she thought that what her child was going through and the child's health struggles were her fault as a mother. And similarly to PPD, in her mind, she just couldn't rationalize it, no matter what the experts were telling her, no matter what her brain was telling her that, like, this isn't your fault, this isn't you, like, she couldn't seem to understand the reality of the situation. So much so that, at one point, she wanted to put that daughter up for adoption, even though she had other children, because she thought she was inflicting so much harm on this child, and it's incredibly scary and heartbreaking to witness something like that. And our friend ended up taking her own life over it. Now while that's different, then this case, because Lindsey Clancy took the lives of her children, also did try to take the life of herself and jumped out the window and is paralyzed from the waist down, but the argument here from a lot of people is that this was pre-meditated that this wasn't just a whim of post-partum psychosis that overtook her brain, and she snapped and she killed her children, and then tried to take her own life, but that she was planning and scheming all of this. But my long-winded answer, that's why it's taken me so long to revisit this case, because it is incredibly personal to me, it is very difficult for me, and I'm going to do my best to not get emotional today, look, I'm already starting to get emotional just thinking about it, but it is a very important case that I think so many people need to hear. Regardless which camp you're in, regardless if you think that Lindsey herself was a victim in all of this, or if you think that she was a manipulative, calculated murderer. It doesn't matter which side you're on, it matters that you hear the story and what her experience was and what happened in this case to help further educate so many people who are unfamiliar with the dangers of PPD and PPP, and look, I'm not saying that this gives her a pass for anything, absolutely not. There needs to be accountability, and we also know from what Andrea Yates back in the day that people are revisiting that with new eyes, and that it's just more complex than I think anybody really ever knew, because nobody was willing to talk about it. Again, there's this huge stigma around it, so what's interesting too in this case is that as more information has come out over the last few years, people have become more and more certain as to where they stand in this case. I mean, if anything, they've become more divided, thinking premeditation, calculated, cold-hearted murderer, verse no, she was going through something, a mental health crisis, postpartum psychosis, she knew something was wrong, she tried to get treatment, she tried to get help, she was overmedicated, she is a victim too in all of this. There are two very different sides. However, also now that this case is gone on trial, a trial that consisted of more than 80 witnesses and five weeks of testimony, a lot of the public also believes that Lindsay didn't kill her children at all, but that Patrick Clancy, her then husband, is the one who killed the children, and that he attempted to kill Lindsay and try to frame her for the murderers. And so what I want to do today is I want to walk you through everything. The whole case, the whole information, the timeline of how it all happened, how she got her husband out of the house, and what's been going on since. Because the trial just wrapped up, and it was a wild one, including a verdict that totally divided people even more than the original case did. And I want to lay it all out for you. And then I want you to share with me what you believe. Do you believe that this was cold-hearted, premeditated murder? Or do you think that there was something more here, and that she's a victim too? So with that, today we are reopening the case of Lindsay Clancy. I'm Annie Elise, and let's get right into it. Lindsay and Patrick Clancy got married in 2016 in Connecticut, and then they purchased their home at 47 Somers Street in Ducksbury, Massachusetts in 2018. Over the course of their marriage, they had three children, a daughter Korra, who was five, Dawson, who was three, and another little boy, Callan, who was just eight months old. Back in 2023, when this case first was in the headlines, Lindsay was your average 32-year-old wife and mother. She was working as a labor and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital, and when I say that she was like your normal average mother, it's not a dig or anything like that, it's really just to show you that Lindsay and Patrick were normal everyday people, same as you and I. Lindsay always loved and wanted children, so it was no surprise when she had children of her own. Friends of Lindsay have said that Lindsay's whole life centered around her family. She always strived to be the best mom, the best wife, and loved her children with everything that she had in her. Close friends and colleagues of Lindsay only had positive things to say about her, whether that meant in her personal life, her professional life, or her life as a mother and wife. One of Lindsay's colleagues described her as, quote, "the nurse that you would want caring for your wife, sister, or daughter, as they welcome their child into the world." Because remember, she was a labor and delivery nurse, bringing babies into the world, caring for the new mothers, caring for these little tiny babies. That was her life's work, her purpose. She was such this devoted, loving woman. Other colleagues spoke about Lindsay after she first became a mom when her oldest Korra was born. And she said, quote, "When Korra was born, her mommy nursing skills took over. She would check Korra's vitals at home just to make sure that she was okay. She had such a special bond with all of her children, and she was so proud to be a mom. Even after the other kids were born, Lindsay's attentiveness, it never wavered. Another of her friends at work said that while Lindsay would be so focused on work, she would also always be checking in on the kids at home." Being quote, "She spied on them in the middle of the night via baby monitors, and she shared with us, her coworkers, the images of her sleeping children. She watched them sleep all while she took breaks to pump breast milk in the middle of the night." Now all of those things about Lindsay, all of those characteristics about her being a doting mother, a loving mother, a proud mother, and just a caring woman and nurse in general, it made it even more difficult to grapple with the reality of what would eventually come to happen to Lindsay's own children. The clansies were living a dream life by most standards, and Lindsay and Patrick were so proud of everything that they had built together, especially their three precious children. It was a normal Tuesday on January 24, 2023, when the unexpected happened. Around 6 p.m. officers from the Plymouth Police Department were called to the clansies home, and they were met with a truly horrific scene. Upon their arrival, the officers discovered the three children upstairs, and that they were unconscious with obvious signs of trauma. Each of the kids had been found strangled with exercise bands, and those bands were still around their necks when they were found. The three children were rushed to a local hospital, where five-year-old Kora and three-year-old Dawson were pronounced dead. Sorry. The third child, Callan, who managed to survive at just eight months old, was flown to Boston Children's Hospital, where he was in critical condition by getting treatment. Witnesses said that the baby had been given CPR at the scene. Lindsay was also found at the scene, on the ground outside of the house, after jumping out of a window on the second floor of her house. It was believed that she jumped in an attempt to end her own life, after killing her children when nobody was home. Soon after, it was announced that Lindsay was charged for murdering her two children, and for severely injuring her baby son, Callan. The charges specifically were two counts of homicide, three counts of strangulation, three counts of assault and battery with a deadly weapon. Now when I first covered this case, we weren't sure exactly what the deadly weapon was, but like I mentioned a second ago, the kids were all found with those exercise bands around their necks, so that's where the deadly weapons charges come in. In another devastating blow, baby Callan didn't make it, and passed away after just a few days of hospitalization. Lindsay was initially only charged with Korra and Dawson's death, but after Callan passed, her charges were then upgraded, which left her facing three counts of first degree murder for all three of her children who died. While Lindsay was in the hospital, nobody knew details of her condition other than the fact that she was critically injured and recovering. As this case continued to garner an unbelievable amount of national media attention, the public struggled with how to make sense of what happened. Lindsay was a loving mother, a wife, a labor and delivery nurse. She and Patrick were living what many people would consider a perfect dream life, in an affluent suburb with three precious babies. Many people wondered how a mother could do this in general, but the fact that Lindsay was a labor and delivery nurse added an entire separate layer of confusion. She literally helped bring children into the world, and her social media was filled with pictures of her and Patrick, with the kids kissing them, holding them, playing with them. She had a loving husband and a strong marriage, so how on earth did this happen? It didn't make any sense. People who knew Lindsay spoke out and said that she was struggling with postpartum depression, and also that she was on leave from her job at Massachusetts General Hospital. It was revealed that Lindsay was in an inpatient treatment program for mental health struggles for five days, just a few weeks before this tragic night. After Lindsay took leave from work, Patrick also began to work from home instead of going into the office because he wanted to support Lindsay and be there for her and the kids. From the few friends that have spoken out on Lindsay's behalf, they all generally said the same thing. This isn't Lindsay. Lindsay loves her children. Lindsay would never do this. Lindsay loved being a mom. First friends, anyone who knew Lindsay were absolutely stunned after hearing the news. Lindsay was doing what she could to take care of her mental health. Patrick knew about it. She was going to an outpatient program five days a week for her mental health issues, and it seemed like Lindsay and Patrick were doing everything right, essentially, to address Lindsay's mental health issues. So again, how on earth did this happen? Initially, it was widely believed that Lindsay may have experienced postpartum psychosis, which is a very serious mental illness that can affect women after giving birth. The symptoms can appear suddenly and feel like you lose your sense of reality, including hallucinations, delusions, mood swings, mood disorders, and many other behavioral changes. Facebook groups and other forms on social media had hundreds of women sharing their own experiences with postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis, and a lot of people felt like once Lindsay woke up in the hospital, the reality of her actions would be so unbelievably unbearable that maybe criminal charges weren't the answer after all. It's no secret that for a very long time, a mental illness in the US and really the world either wasn't known to many people or was just not spoken about because of societal norms and a widely held belief that talking about mental health struggles was bad or it was something to be ashamed of. But now, the conversation has completely shifted, especially over the past several years. Sure, there are some people who will always feel the way they do about mental illness, either being an excuse for someone's actions or a way to justify personal failures, but on the other hand, the numbers don't lie. Statistics across the population paint a completely different picture and illustrate that not only is mental illness more common than you would think, but it actually occurs in one out of five adults. That is 20% of the country, and I also want to point out that that statistic is only based on reported experiences of mental illness, so the true number could be much higher. And in light of that, some criminal courts have recognized this culture change of opinion, and more juries have believed people about mental health struggles because they've either experienced it firsthand or know somebody closely to them who has. Because of the way we've been moving in how we discuss mental illness in a non-judgmental and relatable way, many people across the country, including doctors, psychologists, and mental health experts, looked at Lindsey Clancy's situation in a completely different light than say they would have 20 years ago. Four days before Lindsey was scheduled for her arrangement hearing via Zoom, her defense attorney started to describe Lindsey's mental state, describing it as "Zombie-like" and also the result of absolutely over medication, possibly with a component of postpartum depression. He said that from October of 2022 to January of 2023, Lindsey was prescribed as many as 12 different medications. All of these medications were for postpartum anxiety, and he was arguing that she cannot be held criminally responsible because of this. Some of the medications that she was on, which is a plethora of meds to be on, included Ambian, Valium, Colonypin, Prozac, Lammital, Adivan, Remirion, Cerequil, Zoloft, and Trazodone. He said, and I quote, "This family was on the road to hell and unfortunately is not coming back. Her husband actually went to the doctor the week before this happened to ask for help and said you're turning her into a zombie. It was just a brutal, brutal existence that they were living in. Her parents were also aware of this. They were trying to help out the husband as well. Her husband was never told that he shouldn't leave her alone. I like to think in this case it's justice for Lindsey as well. I don't think anyone needs to be lectured about the horrific loss of three beautiful babies." Her defense attorney also filed a motion that the judge granted and scheduled Lindsey to speak with Aferensic Psychologist. to evaluate her before the arrangement. Again, this is something where everybody was just really divided because there were of course people saying, no, this woman just brutally killed her three children, then tried to take her own life, not seeing that as taking her own life because she couldn't bear what was going on, but almost she took her own life because she's a coward and she doesn't want to face the music for this. And we're gonna get into some more of the details of like the planning of these murders as well, which is why so many people still believe this, but then you had the whole other side of the case and the argument saying, no, she was clearly under duress, she was clearly mentally ill, she had been struggling, she told people she was struggling, she was in treatment for it, she was then prescribed over a dozen medications, of course that would warp anybody's sense of reality, behavior and reactions and thinking, there's no way that she can be held accountable for this. So everybody was very, very divided on this right out of the gate. One of the first things that was very troubling for people to hear is that the prosecution said she was never diagnosed with postpartum psychosis. Now, I just want to say that to me is not necessarily indicative of the fact that maybe she was or was not struggling with postpartum psychosis. Just because she wasn't diagnosed with it, I don't believe means that she was not suffering from it. And not only for the reason that many people are suffering from illnesses all the time without having an official formal diagnosis, but especially when you are going through something like postpartum depression or psychosis, and I'm speaking firsthand. I'm speaking about my personal experience here because I have knowledge on this. I suffered from this. When you are in it, you don't know that you are in it. You recognize that something is wrong, you know that you're not feeling right, just like Lindsay did. She was reaching out to her doctors, to Facebook groups, to mom groups saying, these medications aren't working. I'm feeling this way, somebody helped me. You know something's wrong, but you don't know what it is. And it's hard to explain, but it's almost like, you don't know how to not diagnose yourself, but it's almost like you're in denial that you're suffering from this. And that's unfortunately because there is such a stigma attached to it as well that you almost don't want to acknowledge that you might be suffering from it. And I remember with my own personal experience and I'll move on in just a second here. But with my own personal experience, I remember I suffered for weeks and weeks and weeks with postpartum depression and I didn't know what it was. And literally the moment I had a break and called my doctor, I was diagnosed within seconds over the phone. He didn't even need to see me. He knew just based on what I was telling him and what I was saying. He's like, no, I'm calling you in a prescription right now. But what I'm saying is that when you're in it, you sometimes people don't know that they're in it and it doesn't mean that you have to have a formal diagnosis just to mean you're suffering from it. So when the prosecution said that she was never diagnosed with it, a lot of people came out saying, well, before the arrangement, it was said that she was struggling from postpartum psychosis come to find out she was never even diagnosed with it. I don't think that necessarily is black and white. But every, again, it's subjective. So on Tuesday, February 7th, Lindsay was arraigned and at this hearing, the absolute chilling and horrific details were revealed of what exactly happened that day. (dramatic music) You guys know that I am a huge believer in taking care of your mental health. And I truly believe it's just as important as taking care of your physical health. But finding a therapist, it can feel overwhelming. And then you finally find someone who seems like they're a good fit only to realize, you know, they don't take your insurance. Which, that's honestly where so many people get stuck. 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Just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code 10 to life at checkout. After your purchase, the last keyword you heard about them and please support our show and let them know we sent you. Lindsay appeared at this hearing via Zoom and she was still in a hospital bed with a mask on. And you really couldn't tell her emotions in this Zoom because she had the mask on, but she did seem to be heavily medicated. There wasn't a lot of expression. She kind of seems a little zombie-like and at this point too, it hadn't been confirmed, but we later learned that she was paralyzed from the waist down. This as a result from jumping from the second story of her home trying to end her own life. And here's what the prosecution had to say. Dawson and Kellyn were faced down on the floor. Corr was on her side with her torso turned towards the floor. He removed the bands and begged them to breathe. He continued to scream uncontrollably and scream for officers to come to the basement. The dispatchers are hearing this and they send help down to the basement and when they encounter Patrick, he yells out, she killed the kid. On Friday, January 27th, 2023, using an erasable whiteboard because she was still temporarily intubated, one of the first questions that Lindsay Clancy asked was, do I need an attorney? She knew that she had murdered her children and she had the clarity, focus, and mental acumen to focus on protecting her own rights and interests. On the morning of Tuesday, January 24th, 2023, the defendant took her five-year-old daughter, Corr, to the pediatricians for an appointment. She interacted with a receptionist, nursing staff, and a doctor. There were apparently no issues with the defendant's demeanor or behavior as she completed the appointment and was allowed to leave with Corr without any issues or concern. When she returned home, she went outside with Corr and a three-year-old son, Dawson, to play in the snow. They built a snowman, the defendant sent photos to her mother and to the defendant, strike that to her husband. She texted with them. Nothing in the text was out of the ordinary or any sign of any distress or trouble. Then searched that takeout 3-V, be her cell phone at 4.13 pm. Immediately after doing that, she used Apple Maps on her phone to determine how long it would take someone to drive from her home in Ducksbury to 3-V restaurant in Plymouth. So she would know how long someone would be gone if they were in that errand. 4.53 pm, the defendant texted her husband who was working in his home office in their basement. She texted, any chance you want to do takeout from 3-V, I didn't cook anything, it's been a long day. This was an unusual request as when the family ordered takeouts they usually go somewhere close to their home, but it was a place that they had been in the past. Now this detail of Lindsay figuring out how long it would take for her husband, Patrick, to get the takeout. It has been one of the biggest things that I see people talking about when it comes to her potential premeditated guilt. And I'll admit, it's something that I struggle with as well. Now I wanted to note something that I was able to find in my research for this updated episode that I'm giving you guys today. In 2024, Patrick didn't interview with The New Yorker and he detailed a conversation that he and Lindsay had in the weeks after the kid's death. Patrick said that these conversations were full of questions, mainly for her to fill in the gaps for him. Probably also for a little bit of closure or as much closure as you can get in a situation like that, maybe just answers that will hopefully bring you a little bit of peace. But one of those questions was about her looking up how long it would take for him to get to the restaurant. He claimed that he asked her if it was true that she Googled how long it would take him. And she said yes, that it was true. So when he asked her, okay, well why would you Google something like that? Her answer was one that under any other circumstances probably would have been pretty normal. Because apparently Lindsay said that she only looked it up because she was concerned about him getting stuck in a rush hour traffic. Which like I said, in any other circumstances, then the one that they were in, that would have been totally normal. Looking up how long it's gonna take to get to and from a restaurant, I mean personally for me, I know that when I'm really hungry and I don't feel like cooking or I'm ordering door dash or postmates or whatever, I will decide on what food we get, whether it's delivery or pickup based on the wait time and the traffic to and from the restaurant. And if it's too long, I just will go with a restaurant that's closer, something that's easier, even if it's not what I initially wanted. But again, in Lindsay's case, this definitely is not a normal scenario. And even if that were the truth as to why she was looking up the traffic, that is why one hell of a coincidence because of what ended up transpiring. And so again, I just wanted to mention that because I did find that in an interview and I thought that it was interesting, but anyway, let's get back into it. - After Clancy texted back, yes. And then the defendant asked him to check the menu. As I said, team PM, after Clancy headed out the door to run these errands at the defendant's request. As he left, he texted in PDLX liquid spools off in her. Surveillance footage shows Mr. Clancy at CVS on summer street in Kingston at 5.32 PM. He goes to the medication aisle, the children's medication aisle. Phone record shows that he called the defendant at 5.33 PM and she did not answer the phone. He then calls him back at 5.34 PM and the call lasted 14 seconds. He's there at the store on the store of which medication to get and she tells him exactly what she wants. He had no issues communicating with her. He was a completely normal call, although he did mention that she seemed like she was in the middle of something. When he arrived home, the first thing he noticed was the silence. He did not see or hear the defendant or the children. He actually called herself on at 6.09 PM looking for them and she did not answer. He went to their bedroom on the second floor in the door with lock. He was able to open it and when he looked inside, he saw blood on the floor in front of a full-length mirror in the window open. He immediately runs downstairs and into the backyard where he finds the defendant laying on the ground. He appeared to have cuts on a wrist and neck but he stated to 911 that those wounds were no longer bleeding. He was conscious. He called 911. During this time, he asked the defendant, what did you do? She responded to him. I tried to kill myself and jump out the window. During the 911 call, the Patrick can be heard asking the defendant, where are the kids? He later told police that she replied in the basement. So immediately after this happened, she knew what she had done and she knew where the kids were. When EMS arrived, he asked them to stay with her so he could go find his kids. The 911 call kept going. Patrick can be heard on the 911 call entering the home and heading to the basement. At one point, he crawls out, guys. He can then be heard screaming in agony and shock as he found his children. His screams seemed to get louder and more agonized as the time passes. Kora and Kellyn were on the floor in the den area of the finish basement which is to the left when you walk down the stairs. While Dawson was alone on the floor in his father's home office which is to the right when you go down the stairs. Each child still had the exercise band that was used to strangle them tied around their neck when their father found them. Kora was on her side with her torso turned towards the floor. According to her husband, she was never on more than four to five medications at one time and at the time of the murder, she was taking only three medications and he said to the police that she always took the medications as prescribed. After her stay at McLean, the defendant appeared to be getting better according to her husband. She slept well, interacted with friends and family. She went out with her kids and husband to places like the Kingsbury Club in Duxbury, the Charlie Hortes restaurant, the Museum of Science in Boston, the Cape Cotter down the Cape, interacting with her family and the public without any apparent difficulties. She even stayed alone with her children on several occasions without any issues in January of 2023. Her husband asked her in mid-January, "Are you still having suicidal thoughts?" And she said, "No." On the night of the killings, Patrick Clancy was interviewed by the police at Beth Israel Deaconess Clinic Hospital. He told the police that the defendant was having one of her best days. She was smiling and happy, and there was no indication that she was going to harm the kid. No one, no one at all. Described to her as acting like a zombie and the day is leading up to the murder or on the day of the murders themselves. On February 5th, 2023, this past Sunday at 1.35 pm, while sitting with Dr. Paul Zyzel, the psychologist hired by defense conference to evaluate her mental state, the defendant used Dr. Zyzel's cell phone to call her husband. She left a voicemail stating that she loved him. Yesterday, on February 6th, 2023 at 10.09 am, she again used Dr. This time, he answered. And during this call, the defendant stated that after he left the house that night, she killed the kids because she heard a voice and had, quote, "a moment of psychosis," and quote. He asked her what voice did she heard, and she said she heard of man's voice telling her to kill the kids and kill herself because it was her last chance. Patrick Clancy told the police the defendant had never heard voices before. He also told the police the defendant had never used the word psychosis to him before. The first time she used that word psychosis was when she was with the doctor, hired by defense counsel, in using his cell phone. Now let's hear what the defense had to say about all of this. We have a paraplegic who can't walk, who is definitely a danger to herself. And the government wants to put her in where framing him, state prison, one without a correction. There's no way that any humane person would do that, especially within the structure of our criminal justice system, where a person is presumed innocent. And I'm not suggesting that the facts that the government has read, which he has a good defense. It's going to be down in good defense with this case, because that's what happened. To have this woman not held on bail. Perhaps put a GPS on her, I guess, if someone's concerned that she's going to miraculously recover, which isn't going to happen. As you run the nose, being a paraplegic paralyzed, she can't move. Can't get off the bed. She can't walk. She can't even go to the bathroom. She has to have 24/7 medical care. We all know that this woman is, as counsel concedes apparently, a danger to herself. I question whether she would ever make it to a trial. She's vital. She's extremely emotional. However, she's unable and has been unable to express any happiness or sadness, or cry. And in fact, sometime about a month or two ago, she made the climate I just wish that I could feel something. Now, as society fails miserably in treating women with post-partum depression or even post-partum psychosis. It's Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid. Throw the pills at you, and then see how it works. But doesn't work increase the dose or decrease the dose. Then I end up trying another combination of medications. Now, I want to note here that in the arrangement, the defense shifted from just medication-induced psychosis to post-partum psychosis. So it was now time for the forensic psychiatrist to try to determine whether a crime was premeditated, or if this was something else. And they needed to look at the whole picture instead of just one incident. And in this case, in order to see and have visibility to the whole picture, that would include Lindsay's past history with her children. Everything was on the table, and nothing was off limits. According to almost everyone that knew Lindsay personally or even on the surface, she was, by all accounts, just a great mother that loved her children deeply. And also, she absolutely loved being a mom. Even her husband, Patrick, spoke out after these murders, asking the public to forgive Lindsay, since he says that he already had forgiven her. He wrote an absolutely heart-wrenching post on the GoFundMe detailing their family traditions, talking about Kora, Dawson, and Callan, and spoke out in depth about his marriage to Lindsay. In that, he said, nothing matched her intense love for our kids in dedication to being a mother. It was all she ever wanted. Her passion taught me how to be a better father. Now, this is just heartbreaking, because Patrick is, of course, grappling with the loss of his three children. And then on top of that, the added extra layer that your wife is the one responsible for this. And in that moment, you can imagine feeling torn as far as, should I support her? He obviously knows the mental health situation much more than the public. So do I support her, issue a monster, all of the things? And he put that statement out pretty quickly, which again, kind of sparked even more confusion out there with the public, because they now are seeing the parent, the father, and the husband standing by her, being like, maybe things really were different. Maybe this was bad. But any of that empathy took a pretty big turn when more details became public. There was a clear divide out there. People who were standing with Lindsay, who were advocating for her, who were trying to be empathetic, and then the people on the other side say, no, she is a monster, she's a murderer, she needs to be held accountable. And that's really all, many people had to go on for months. We finally learned the details of those horrific murders, some of the extremely haunting methods of the murder. And that's really all we knew at that point. We had a little bit of information to go off of, but things were under lock and key for the most part until so much more of that came to light. On October 26, things took a serious turn for Lindsay, as she was now standing before a judge at the Tukesbury State Hospital where she had been getting treatment since the spring. She pleaded not guilty to the charges against her. However, the judge decided to hold her with out bail and commit her to psychiatric care because they believed that she was a risk of hurting herself. The judge's decision came after Dr. Karen Towers, a forensic psychiatrist, reported that Lindsay was going through severe depression and having a very hard time coping with life. Dr. Towers expressed her professional opinion that Lindsay needed ongoing psychiatric care. During these court proceedings, prosecutor Jennifer Sproug provided more details about the events that occurred on January 24, when all three of those little children were brutally murdered. According to investigative affidavits, Lindsay had cut her wrists and her neck before jumping from the second floor window. Prosecutor Jennifer also mentioned that these injuries were not too deep and didn't even need stitches, raising questions about how serious Lindsay's suicide attempt really was. She also noted that Lindsay seemed to be fully aware of her actions, as there were no signs of hallucinations or delusions in her notes where she wrote about her life and her children. Then you can hear what you find is talent because the team is going to fit in the court. The emergency people come downstairs out of the police, the firefighters, the else she tells them is. Dr. Dow, the A.U., a psychiatrist, retained by the commonwealth for use of medical records, prescription history, her journals, and didn't find anything out of the ordinary in the manner of treatment or in the medications that were prescribed to her by her providers. She testified at Ranger E. that the trial of different medications and different combinations of dosages is routine medical practice when initially treating a patient and trying to find out what works for them. The defendant wrote a note on her phone on October 25, 2022, stating, "I think I sort of resent my younger children because they prevent me from treating Cal like my first baby." She also wrote, "I want to feel love and connection with all of my kids." This would indicate that she did not feel love or connection with at least some of her kids. She then wrote, "She wants to have more kids eventually." Orday is prior to killing her children. The defendant did an internet search on her phone and it was, quote, "can you treat a sociopath?" The children were killed with a liturgy strangulation. Liturgy strangulation causes the victim to be come unconscious anywhere from 10 seconds to a minute and that depends on how much the victim's struggles her fate. The more they struggle her fate, the longer it takes. Dostin had the most kicky eye on his face and neck. According to the medicine seminar, this means Dostin either struggled there, caught for his life more than poor Cal and were able to or that she strangled her partner than the other two, or both. And it takes 10 pounds of pressure at minimum straight. She put a stop at any time, she put a jeep at any time, she put a count of the money. She did not. Instead, she finished strangling the children, returned her husband's phone call, then went up to the bathroom on the second floor. There she used the knife to inflict superficial cuts to the practice through her risk and neck. She took the remaining pills of the Rimmeron Cerebral and then she climbed up to the bedroom window and gripped the window sill while they didn't climb it. She noticed because there's blood on the outside of the window sill where her wrist would be in her hand. She then dropped from the window or slipped down. She did not jump. She did not curl herself up because there was blood on the exterior shingles going down, a exterior of the house. And then on the window, directly below the window she came out of, there's more blood on the top level. Well, you might be trying to grab on to that window. While being treated at Rimmeron's hospital in Boston after killing her children, the defendant spoke to mental staff. On February 6th, she said that she had fears that her inability to walk would make her vulnerable to others and that she was worried about nothing else to walk again. On February 7th, she said she was failing more hopeful about her future. On February 8th, she stated that she is more future oriented and hopeful. And on February 9th, she is visibly engaged, energized and hopeful. Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Reddington, had a different perspective on this, though. This clienty is an Earth, obviously, a white mother, according to anybody that we speak to, right, to this incident. She was nothing less than a marvelous, incredible mother hospital. I've been in that house. There were photographs that showed the love and devotion that both Lindsay and her husband Patrick had these kids. Every single room was covered with her artwork, the embroidery pictures, statements to the kids, tracks and graphs of, you know, how they're doing, what they're doing, as far as learning alphabet numbers, things of that nature. She then, after having her third child, obviously. I understand that the government wants to portray a lack of criminal responsibility as somebody who is crazy, as we would envision somebody being crazy, unable to speak, unable to take care of themselves with hygiene, acting in a very, very irrational fashion. But that's not what happens when you have a situation. You have a woman who is obviously suffering from post-pilot depression, and how do we know that? Well, we know that because in the weeks and months prior, she was in such a state. She was unable to promote. She was unable to feel. She had no ability to love whether it was her husband or her kids, and she told Patrick her husband that. He argued against Jennifer's points, mentioning that he could see the blood from Lindsay's wounds on the floor, the walls, and even the window pane, which suggested a more serious situation than what Jennifer had described as, and I quote, a "dinky cut." I've talked before about just how important financial independence is to me. I just think that everyone should have a bank that does more for you than just told your money. It should actually help your money work harder for you. And that's why I am so beyond excited to tell you about today's sponsor, SoFi. SoFi Plus is a premium membership that is designed to help you get more from your finances, unlocking $1,000 or more in annual value with qualifying activities. That includes things like a highly competitive APY on your savings, investment matches, and even unlimited one-on-one sessions with experienced SoFi wealth financial planners. It's honestly such a smart way to just get more for your money. And getting started is just $10 a month. So if you've been looking for a better way to manage your finances and make your money work a little bit harder for you, head to SoFi.com/10ToLife to learn more. So in the midst of all of this, investigators obtained warrants to search Lindsay's electronic devices. This included a tablet and a blue case that was found in the kitchen, an HP Pavilion laptop recovered from a basement office, a silver Dell laptop located in a first floor closet, and a pink Apple iPhone that was found in a second floor dresser of one of the bedrooms. They also discovered quite a few journals where Lindsay would journal about her mental health and feelings about her children, but also researching ways to kill. So these devices contained Lindsay's digital footprints and her thoughts on mental health all the way to those disturbing searches related to self-harm. So the goal of all of these search warrants was to find any evidence that this was in fact premeditated. So all of this information with the journals, the search history, her husband noticing the self-harm ideations, this all coupled with the fact that Lindsay had voluntarily admitted herself to McLean Hospital from New Year's Day to January 5th, indicated a level of self-awareness for Patrick regarding her struggles, regarding the mental health struggles that she was facing. But Lindsay's struggles took a more mysterious turn when it was revealed that she had confided in a close friend about her thoughts of harming both her children and herself. Now interestingly, just two days before the tragic events unfolded, this friend had hosted the Clancy family over at the house for dinner. During that gathering, though, Lindsay's behavior apparently hadn't raised any alarms, and everything appeared completely normal. Police searched the home extensively, finding crucial pieces of evidence including the murder weapons, knives, and several of those notebooks. and these notebooks contained a comprehensive list of those medications that Lindsay had been prescribed, which was further supporting the defense's argument that she had been overly medicated. It became evident that Lindsay had been dealing with a very complex cocktail of psychiatric drugs. And those notebooks didn't just document her medication regimen. They also contained her innermost thoughts, her struggles, and her confidence in friends, one of whom was cryptically referred to as SU. What's interesting about these journals are that even all these years' laders, we don't really know very much about them. The friends she does name in the journal, she only refers to by their first name. And as for the actual journal entries, there haven't been any made public. And I don't know this for sure, but I would be willing to bet that we will be seeing some of these journal entries during the trial, whether that's from the defense, showing that she really was struggling mentally, that she was struggling for quite some time and trying to get help and seek treatment or possibly even shown from the prosecution, showing that she documented having negative feelings towards her children and negative feelings toward motherhood. Maybe we'll see them from both sides. I don't know, but I would imagine they probably will come into play at some point. Many psychiatrists and psychologists say that one reason someone could be struggling this badly with a postpartum mood disorder or really even mental illness in general, and that they never mention anything to anyone about it, is because of the fear that their children will be taken away from them. However, this wasn't the case with Lindsay, which is what makes this so troubling. She told Patrick, she was also on leave from work, she sought out treatment programs, she was on prescribed medication, she was doing all of the things that she thought were necessary. So why didn't medication work on Lindsay? What are women supposed to do that seek medical treatment, but the medications aren't working? What then? Why wasn't Lindsay diagnosed with postpartum psychosis prior to this? I don't have the answers, and there are still so many questions, but it's important to ask these questions to further the conversation and to distinguish mental health issues that women face after childbirth. And something I also just wanna mention guys, if she had these plans to annihilate her entire family, or her children, not her entire family, but her children, starting back in October when she was journaling, why would she go through the steps of trying to get medication? Why would she go through the steps of trying to get an inpatient treatment? Do the five-day-a-week outpatient treatment? Tell her husband she needed him to work from home, take leave from work. If she wasn't trying to better herself and better her mental stage and her emotions, then why would she do all of those things? If she was just a cold, calculated murder, her no longer wanted to be a mom and just wanted to check out, why would she take all of those steps? It doesn't really add up to me, and I could be wrong. There could be something I'm missing entirely, so let me know in the comments, but that doesn't add up to me. I would think, based on cases we've seen, studies that have been out there, if somebody it wants to just check out as a parent and not have the responsibility of children anymore, it just wants to be rid of all of that, not necessarily Chris Watts. I know that's an easy default to go to, but I believe his motivation was more lust and driven by his mistress, but if somebody just doesn't want to be a parent anymore, I don't believe that they're going to try to seek out treatment to get better. I don't see how that ties together. So the last time that I covered this case was almost three years ago now, and at that time, I truly think that a lot of people were still really torn on how they felt, even after the prosecution was dropping, all of these bombshells left and right, and they were accusing Lindsay of remeditating her children's murders. To be honest, I also totally understand why people are still torn even to this day. Both of the defense and the prosecution have laid out pretty convincing arguments along the way. The judge also ruled that witnesses will not be able to testify about their own experience with postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression, and I think that this was a really big hit to the defense. However, Lindsay's attorney explained why this was so important to them. They said, "For us to believe that somebody is hearing voices, the natural reaction from any of us, I think, in this courtroom would be, come on, you're not hearing voices, what are you talking about? You're making this up, you're trying to avoid responsibility, but it's true, and it happens. A woman who has suffered and has put up with this affliction should be able to testify and say probably in an emotionally charged fashion, but very credibly, I too have heard these command voices. I too acted on the command voices." However, the judge's explanation for this ruling was, it doesn't seem like there's a question of whether postpartum depression or psychosis is real. And I take a little bit of an issue with that. I see both sides of it. I don't think people ever question if postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis is real. I think for the most part, if you have a brain, you understand that this is a real thing. However, personally, I don't think that people understand just how severe it is and how overwhelming it can become and how truly out of control your own mind is. Your brain is working against you. It's like you're fighting within yourself. And that because of the stigma that has gone on for years, that is the reason I don't believe people understand just how truly detrimental it is and how debilitating it is and the severity of it. I don't think it's the people are doubting that it exists. Absolutely, I think people understand that. But I don't think people are either, I don't wanna say willing to accept how serious it is, but maybe just uneducated and don't understand. And so while I understand you can't parade up all these different witnesses, sharing all of their personal experiences just to pull on the heartstrings of the jurors so that the case swings in your favor, I get that. But at the same time, I do think to some extent, it is important to illustrate that this is a very real thing that people have gone through for. I don't even know how many freaking decades or centuries it goes back, but also to share their personal experience because think about it. If you see a defendant who just committed a triple murder and they're saying, I hear voices, the voice has told me to do obviously, you're gonna be like, this person is full of shit. Hello, look at Aiden Fouche. When he was like on that infamous jail call and it was recording, he was like looking around the room pretending he was hearing voices and you're like, okay, it's performative. You're full of shit. You're just trying to like throw a Hail Mary right now to avoid responsibility. But that would happen I think for any defendant. But in a case like this, I think you do at some point need an expert to come in or a witness or someone to illustrate that this is very real. And look, take my friend Cara, for example. She obviously can't testify and she can't be witness because she's no longer here, but she took her own life over it. That's how real it was. And I know there's a very fine line when it comes to familiside and mental health and all the things because it's like once you make an argument for one situation, you make that argument for multiple situations, so I get it. I understand both the defense and the prosecutions stance here, but I also think that just because somebody acknowledges that these illnesses exist doesn't mean they understand or even educated enough to know what that truly means and what those symptoms are and how catastrophic these illnesses can be. That's just my personal opinion. I mentioned in previous episodes that after Lindsay was taken into custody, Patrick spoke out saying that he forgave Lindsay. And he also said that he hoped that the public would forgive her as well. Since then, he's also done some smaller interviews, but for the most part, he's tried to move on with his life as much as possible. He moved out of the house that he shared with Lindsay and the kids and it later sold. And an article that Patrick was interviewed for in 2024, he explained that he was currently renting an apartment in Manhattan and he kept close a few keepsakes from the kids to remind him of how his life used to be. In that same article, he also said, "I wasn't married to a monster. "I was married to someone who got sick." But like I said earlier, people aren't exactly the biggest Patrick Clancy fans. So let's talk about why and also everything that went on in the trial. Now, honestly, as soon as it kicked off, things took a turn that I don't think anybody necessarily expected. Because prosecutors started calling their witnesses, but one of the very first and obviously most important witnesses was Lindsay's husband at the time, Patrick Clancy. And this is really where the conversation surrounding this case completely shifted. Because remember, going into this trial, the question wasn't, did Lindsay kill her children? The defense wasn't arguing that she didn't. They were arguing that when Lindsay killed Korra Dawson and Callan, she was suffering from a severe mental illness, specifically post-partum psychosis, saying she was not criminally responsible for what she did. But once Patrick got on that stand, I mean, suddenly a huge portion of the internet wasn't talking about post-partum psychosis anymore. They were talking about Patrick. And I mean, the rumor mill, it went into absolute overdrive. People started dissecting every single word of his testimony, every timestamp, every piece of surveillance footage, every answer he gave. And before long, there were people all over TikTok, Reddit, Facebook, everywhere saying, wait a second. What if Lindsay didn't do this? What if Patrick did? And I want to be extremely clear here, because this is very important. There is no evidence that has been presented, that Patrick killed these children. He has not been charged with anything, and this was not the defense's theory at trial. In fact, Lindsay's own attorney, Kevin Reddington, never stood in front of that jury and said, Patrick Clancy killed these kids. He never even brought in a alternative third party suspect. But social media, I mean, social media was having an entirely different trial. And there were a few specific things that really poured gasoline on the fire. One was the timeline. That was probably the biggest. Patrick testified that on January 24th, he left the house to go to CVS to pick up the PDLax for Cora. Then he went to 3V to pick up dinner. The prosecution's theory was that Lindsay essentially created this window of opportunity by sending Patrick out on these errands, and that while he was gone, she killed all three children. But then, during Patrick's testimony, Reddington brought up an email. Patrick had sent a work email at 5.24pm, and this immediately became a huge deal because Patrick had estimated he left the house at around 5.15pm. Reddington asked him whether that email had been sent from his Surface Pro, which was his computer in the basement, or if it had maybe been sent from his phone. Patrick said he actually didn't know, it could have been sent from his iPhone. So now prosecutors came back on redirect and they pointed out something very important. This video shows Patrick walking into CVS at approximately 5.32pm, and he had his phone with him. So an email being sent at 5.24, that does not automatically mean that Patrick was sitting inside the home using his Surface Pro in the basement. He definitely could have sent it from his phone after leaving. But that nuance there? That was basically non-existent online, because all people heard was Patrick says he left at 5.15, email goes out at 5.24 Surface Pro. So immediately it became, Patrick was still in the house. He was there. He didn't leave. He couldn't have made it there in time. However, that's not what the evidence established. What the evidence established is that the email was sent at 5.24, and Patrick couldn't remember which device he sent it from. Then, eight minutes later, he's documented on CCTV footage walking into CVS. Still though, as you can imagine, once people started questioning the timeline, they started questioning everything. They started asking about Lindsay's body temperature, because when Lindsay arrived at the hospital after jumping from the second story window, her core body temp was 82.1 degrees, which that is severe hypothermia. But people online immediately started asking, "Well, how does somebody's body temperature get that low if she was only outside for the amount of time that Patrick's timeline would suggest?" So people started using that as evidence that Lindsay, she made actually much to bend outside much longer than that, which then turned into theories that Patrick's entire timeline was wrong, and that it was staged. But again, there was actual medical testimony about this. A defense forensic pathologist testified that Lindsay was lying on frozen ground in wet indoor clothing, and that she was in temperatures around freezing. Also, after sustaining a catastrophic spinal cord injury, that spinal cord injury alone interfered with her body's ability to regulate her temperature. She also had significant blood loss and shock, so basically saying, 82 degrees is an incredibly low body temperature, but the jury also was hearing a medical explanation for why her temperature could have dropped so drastically and quickly. Then there was also the surveillance footage itself. People online started circulating screenshots and clips, claiming Patrick looked different between all of the locations. That is, Jacket looked different, his shoes looked different, even that his hair at one point looked different. Suddenly, then, there were side by side comparisons everywhere, claiming Patrick had changed his clothes, changed his shoes, and it became an entire new conspiracy theory. Where did he change? Why did he change? Did he go somewhere else? Was that even Patrick in the footage? Because people were now saying, "Oh no, his best friend was cosplaying as him trying to help him cover up. His best friend in the footage." Patrick didn't even go to CBS. I mean, these people were analyzing this footage, like it was the zodiac or something just insane. But again, this is where I think we have to separate what actually happened inside the courtroom from what was happening on the internet. Because there was not any evidence at all presented that established that Patrick had secretly changed clothes because he committed a crime. A lot of what people were circulating were just interpretations of different surveillance images and screenshots, some even AI generated. But by this point, honestly, it just didn't even matter, because once people became suspicious of Patrick, everything became evidence of something. And then, people found out about his life after the murders. And we've talked a little bit about this, but Patrick moved to New York approximately four months after the kids died. He eventually divorced Lindsay, and he's now remarried to a woman named Rachel, who is a fraternal, and she's actually a fertility specialist in New York, which that kind of became its own rabbit hole, because people started digging through race results because they both love to run and do marathons, photographs, social media posts, timelines, trying to determine when Patrick and Rachel actually first met. There were claims that they even started an affair before the murders. There were claims that they had run a race together before the murders. There were claims that Patrick had been having an affair with her and that that somehow gave him emotive to kill his family, frame Lindsay, have Lindsay die by suicide, and then go start his new life in New York. The problem with all of that? Those claims have never been established. One particular viral claim is that Patrick and Rachel ran a race and bermuda together shortly before the murders, yet it appears that those race results were completely mixed up from years later. And there's, again, but no evidence presented at Lindsay's trial, establishing that Patrick was having an affair with Rachel before January 24th. So what happened online was basically this massive game of telephone, where confirmed facts and speculation just completely became intertwined. I mean, Patrick moved to New York four months later, that's a fact. He eventually began a relationship with Rachel and married her, fact, but therefore that they were having an affair before the murders and Patrick killed his kids so he could be with her? Not a fact. They're two very different things, and I do think that that distinction matters because regardless of what anyone thinks of Patrick, this is a man whose three children were killed. And even Lindsay's own defense attorney wasn't accusing him of murdering them. Actually, one of the things I found really interesting about Patrick's testimony was that in many ways, he helped the defense. He talked about how dramatically Lindsay's mental health had changed. He described her depression, anxiety, insomnia, suicidal thoughts, and ideations. The constant doctors and medications and the concerns that she had expressed about something happening to the children. He also described Lindsay as a loving mother. So I mean, you have this bizarre dynamic happening where Patrick was a prosecution witness, but people watching online were turning him into a suspect, while his actual testimony was providing the jury with some of the strongest firsthand evidence of Lindsay's mental deterioration before the killings. And that really became the kind of entire backdrop for the rest of the trial, because once Patrick was off the stand, both sides spent weeks fighting over essentially one question. What was happening inside Lindsay Clancy's mind on January 24th, 2023? The defense brought in doctors, mental health providers, family members, experts who all described a woman who had desperately been seeking help. They talked about her insomnia, her anxiety, her depression, her suicidal thoughts, her fear that something was terribly wrong. The medications, I mean, they were numerous psychiatric medications prescribed by multiple providers over a relatively short period of time. And ultimately, the defense's position was that Lindsay had developed postpartum psychosis and she was experiencing command hallucinations. Lindsay said that she heard a male voice telling her this was her last chance. She needed to kill the children, which people online argued that that voice was actually Patrick's voice that she was hearing. Now, one of the defendants' most important experts was actually a forensic psychiatrist who concluded that Lindsay was psychotic and was not criminally responsible when she killed the children. Yet the prosecution saw it totally differently. Their argument was essentially, Lindsay absolutely had mental health problems, nobody is denying that, but mental illness does not automatically equal legal insanity. They argued that Lindsay knew what she was doing, that she understood what she was doing was wrong and deliberately created an opportunity to be alone with the children. They focused heavily on the fact that Lindsay asked Patrick to leave the house. She sent him to CVS, she sent him to pick up dinner, and according to prosecutors, once he was gone, she acted. The Commonwealth also called rebuttal experts who challenged the postpartum psychosis diagnosis and Lindsay's accounts of this mysterious male voice. One doctor, specifically questioned aspects of Lindsay's description of the voice, when it appeared how it operated, how it seemingly disappeared after the killings. Another prosecution expert concluded that Lindsay was criminally responsible, and prosecutors offered a very different explanation for what happened. But Lindsay may have been suicidal and believed killing the children would somehow prevent them from suffering after she was gone, but what was discussed during the testimony as this like, you know, altruistic motive rather than her being commanded to kill them by a psychotic voice. So, by the end of the trial, the jury wasn't choosing between Lindsay did it, or Lindsay didn't do it. They were choosing between two completely different explanations as for why she did it. And legally, whether she was capable of understanding the criminality or wrongfulness of her actions when she did it, which technically, there were five options they could come back with. Straighten on guilty. It was still on the table, even though that isn't what they were arguing, but because there was a lack of an investigation, nobody else, as a suspect, a lot of people thought there was enough reasonable doubt that that could potentially be where the jury goes with it. So, they had straightened on guilty, guilty by reason of insanity, first degree murder, second degree murder, or manslaughter. And then, after more than 80 witnesses, hundreds of exhibits, weeks of testimony, both sides finally rested. Closing arguments happen, the judge insists. instructed the jury and then on August 27th, 2026, they went out to deliberate, but there was nothing, no verdict. So they continued deliberating, deliberating, deliberating, nothing for days. Then after the weekend, they came back on Tuesday, September 1st, after 18 hours of deliberation, but the jury told the judge they were deadlocked. They could not reach a unanimous verdict. However, the judge was not ready to call it. He wanted to make sure there was a verdict coming out of this. They had spent five weeks at trial. So he said, you have to go back, you have to, you have to keep deliberating. So they did. Then they came back Wednesday, more deliberations sent another note, still deadlocked. So at that point, judge Sullivan gave them what's known in Massachusetts as a two-year-old Rodriguez instruction. And basically, it's this last resort instruction that you give a jury when they're telling you, you know, we can't agree where he says, go back, reconsider the evidence, listen to each other's positions, make another sincere attempt to reach a unanimous decision. Don't, you know, abandon your own convictions, though. And simply for the sake of reaching a verdict, but try to work together and see what you can come up with. So then after five days of deliberating and nearly 30 hours behind closed doors, they still did not reach a verdict. Then came Thursday, the next day. They sent a note back out to the judge. And this was now the third time that they were saying they were deadlocked. And you could see Reddington was pissed. He was very angry about this. The judge asked all of them one by one, you know, do you understand my instructions? Do you understand the law? Are you able to try to come to a verdict on your own of what you believe happened to which they all answered? Yes. But then Reddington held a side bar with the judge or held a side bar and then came forward in front of the judge saying that there was one juror who was not willing to consider reasonable doubt. And that that juror apparently seemingly was the holdout and that he wouldn't listen to the law. The judge really in that moment said, well, I just asked them if they all understood the law to which they said, yes, so there's nothing I can do. And he forced them to continue deliberating. And I think a lot of people were shocked by this because at this point, the jury had come back three times saying they were deadlocked, which typically you would think, okay, that is going to mean it's a hung jury call it. It's a mistrial. You can't force a verdict at this point. But then to also hear that it was one juror who was holding out because they wouldn't listen to reasonable doubt. That makes me think and I could totally be wrong that that juror was dead set on either murder, one or murder two while the rest of the jurors either were on manslaughter, not guilty by reason of insanity or I don't know, maybe even who knows of straight not guilty. But that that person really thought that this was premeditated and was unwilling to even allow reasonable doubt to creep into their mind. So the judge on Thursday sent them back to continue deliberating for I don't even know how many times they've come back three times. So out for deliberations multiple times. But then Friday came and Friday was the day where all hell broke loose. The trial ended up finally wrapping up, but not after a ton of roller coasters and twists and turns because Friday was absolutely wild. And I've never seen a trial like this. So many experts have never seen trials like this. It was definitely one for the history books. So when court started on Friday morning, Kevin Reddington was still fighting over that one juror who had become the center of everything the day before. Remember, the four person had sent that note to the judge, indicating that there was one juror who acknowledged that they had some doubt, but that according to the note that juror was refusing to apply the court's instruction on reasonable doubt. So Reddington argued that this wasn't simply a juror disagreeing with everyone else. He believed that this juror was refusing to follow the law. So Friday morning, before things began, Reddington again asked a judge William Sullivan to either further question that juror or remove him. But judge Sullivan said no. Sullivan then said reading the note very carefully that he did not believe that it established that this juror was actually refusing to follow the law. Now, as we know the day before last Thursday, all 12 jurors had individually indicated to the judge that they could follow his instructions. And the judge made it clear that he was not going to essentially choose the position of the other 11 jurors over the position of this one juror simply because they disagreed. So, Judge Sullivan sent those same 12 jurors back to deliberate for the seventh day. And about 90 minutes in, they came back with another note. Now, this was the third time that the jury had told the court that they could not reach a unanimous decision. And this note, it was pretty definitive. The jury told the judge, quote, "It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and we will not be able to." So, at that point, Judge Sullivan said essentially that he had reached, you know, the end of the road and that he was going to declare a mistrial. However, that is when Kevin Reddington, for the defense, made a final hail Mary. He asked the judge not to formally discharge this jury yet. And he said, "Please give the defense time to go directly to the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court, the highest court in the state, and ask a single justice to intervene." Basically saying, "We want to appeal this, we want to stay, don't, you know, let the jury go yet, don't put the, you kind of pause this mistrial." And this Sullivan agreed, saying, "Okay, I will do that, but you only have one hour." Originally, Reddington said that he would file the motion on Friday, then he would follow up and they could resume it on Tuesday because of the holiday weekend, but Sullivan said, "You know, I'll agree to it, but only for one hour." So alongside Reddington, one of his attorneys, Dana Goldblatt, then filed the emergency petition on behalf of Lindsay's defense team. This was around noon on Friday. Then at 1.30 on Friday, there was an emergency zoom hearing between the Supreme Judicial Court associate, justice, and the prosecution, and the defense. And what the defense was asking for is important because they were not asking the Supreme Court justice to decide that Lindsay was not criminally responsible or to acquit her. They were essentially arguing that before this jury was thrown away and a mistrial is declared, Judge Sullivan should be required to more thoroughly investigate what was happening with that one-lone juror. Potentially conduct a more detailed warrior and determine whether this juror was actually refusing to apply the law and therefore should be removed for cause and replaced with an alternate. So, you know, in other words, their argument was, "You have 11 jurors, potentially ready to reach one result. You then have one juror who is, you know, the, as the four person says, acknowledging doubt but won't apply it. So before you blow up this entire five-week trial, we need to determine whether that juror is actually following the law." So, the Supreme Judicial Court justice heard the arguments, but ultimately, once court resumed, she denied the defense's emergency request. So with that, Judge Sullivan's mistrial stands. The jury was then discharged without reaching a unanimous verdict and after more than 36 hours of deliberations across seven days, Lindsey Clancy's first trial is officially over without a verdict. Now, obviously, the next question is, "Okay, well, what happens next?" A mistrial is obviously not an acquittal. Lindsey has not been found guilty, but she also has not been found not guilty or not criminally responsible. Because this was a hung jury, double jeopardy also does not prevent the Commonwealth from trying her again. Meaning, prosecutors now have a pretty major decision to make. They can retry Lindsey before an entirely new jury. They could potentially negotiate some sort of plea deal and resolution with the defense, which could be interesting. I mean, we know that one of the possibilities for the verdict was the lesser charge of manslaughter. So now, with the prosecution seeing that it was an 11/1 split in favor of the defense, will they even put murder one on the table or will they offer a deal of manslaughter or maybe they'll start at murder too and then they'll agree on manslaughter because clearly, they know that it wasn't going in their favor. Or, I mean, they could ultimately decide not to retry the case at all, which I don't think that's going to happen. You have three dead children. You definitely need to do something, but it is an option technically that they could choose. A mistrial gives them the ability to prosecute her again, but it doesn't require them to do so. However, there's also another piece that you may be hearing discussed over the next several days, and that is something called Rule 25. Massachusetts Rule of Criminal Procedure 25 allows a defendant to ask the judge for what is called a required finding of not guilty. So basically, the defense is saying, even viewing the evidence under the legal standard most favorable to the prosecution, you still do not present enough evidence for a legally valid conviction. So the judge, not the jury, should enter a finding of not guilty because of that. Now, Reddington has already raised Rule 25 in this case. It was back in August. It was when the Commonwealth originally rested its case on August 17th. So he had moved for a required finding of not guilty and argued that, among other things, the Commonwealth had failed to sufficiently prove criminal responsibility. However, the judge denied that motion and allowed the trial to continue. Then, after all of the evidence was finished on August 26th, he renewed his required finding motion, yet Sullivan, Judge Sullivan denied it again. But here's why Rule 25 now suddenly matters again, now that there's a mistrial. The rule specifically says that when a jury is discharged without returning a verdict, a previously denied required finding motion may be renewed within five days after the jury is discharged. So the mistrial does not necessarily mean that every legal issue in front of Judge Sullivan is finished, now. The defense now does have the ability to go back to the judge and renew that rule 25 motion and argue. argue that based on the evidence presented throughout the entire trial, that the Commonwealth failed as a matter of the law to prove the case, including its burden of proving Lindsay was criminally responsible beyond a reasonable doubt. Now I will say that is a very, very high bar. I mean, Rule 25 does not mean that Judge Sullivan gets to say, "You know, well, I personally think that the defense had a stronger case, or 11 jurors apparently agreed with Lindsay, so I'm going to find her not guilty." That's not the standard. He would have to determine that the evidence was not legally insufficient to permit a conviction, not just merely that the defense evidence was more persuasive, or that the jury overwhelmingly appeared to lean in one direction rather than the other. So now there are two separate things happening right now. First, the mistrial is standing, there is no verdict, and the Commonwealth has to decide whether they want to put Lindsay Clancy through an entirely new trial. And second, watch what Reddington does with Rule 25, because under Massachusetts law, he has a very short window after the jury is discharged to renew that motion and to ask for Judge Sullivan to find, you know, the required finding of not guilty. So it's definitely been a roller coaster. Friday was a way wild ride. And after five weeks of testimony, more than 80 witnesses, seven days of deliberations and a jury that was reportedly fighting and divided and divided to an 11-1 split, and then an immediate filing emergency trip to the highest court in Massachusetts, I mean, now the trial ends without a verdict, after all that. But obviously, we know that the Lindsay Clancy case is absolutely not over. And if there is a retrial, or when there is a retrial, I should say, assuming there is, we will be there. We won't just be coming to you with these updates. We will be there live and in person. So if you're not following the podcast yet, make sure you're following so that you do not miss any of that. To raise to know your thoughts on all of this, what do you make of the mistrial of everything that went down Friday if you were watching live? And where do you think everything is going to go from here? Will they include murder one on the retrial? Will they try to have a plea deal arranged? I don't know. Where do we go from here? It has definitely been a wild, wild, and very emotional several weeks for everyone involved in the trial, the family, the friends, the prosecutors, the defense team, and so much of the public that has become so emotionally invested in this case. And I also want to say one more thing. If you are a mom, or an expectant mother, or a brand new mom, and you are ever experiencing any of these thoughts, or these delusions, or these fears, or the detachment, you are not alone. It's not you. And nothing to be ashamed of asking for help certainly is nothing to be embarrassed about. And it does get better if you seek treatment and help. Not always. Not always. I wish I could say always. For me, it did. It took me a while to even realize something was going on. But I want you to know you're not alone. If you are a new mom, and you just delivered, and you are thinking to yourself, you know, I should be in baby bliss. Everybody talks about how the moment you deliver baby, how you've never loved anything that much in your entire life, and your heart is so full, and you're doting on them, and you can't stand to be away from them, and I don't feel that way. What's wrong with me? You're not alone. I was there. It took me a long time to figure that out. The numbness. The detachment I felt, just the wall that went up so much so, and I shared it in my postpartum video, that immediately after delivering my son, I even asked a nurse, I was like, "Feel like I'm in a haze right now." I feel like I'm drunk, and that everything around me is gray, and I can't snap out of it. Almost like when you're in a dream, and you're trying to wake yourself up, and I was like, "Is that normal?" I thought I was just like the shock of my body and all of that, which could have obviously been a contributing factor. But my point is, it's something that is very real, and it's not something that should have any sort of shame or stigma around it, and so if you are going through this or have gone through it first and foremost, my heart is with you, I am very, very sorry, and I know how different it is, and how it feels like it is the end of the world and that you just want to be a good mother to your children. But I also would like to take the moment to encourage you to reach out and get help, and talk to your doctor, talk to your family because it is possible to get better. So with that said, if you are pregnant or if you are a new mother and you are in a crisis, the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline provides free, confidential support 24/7 in both English and Spanish, and you can call or text the hotline at 1-833-9-Hell-4-Moms. And if you are in an active self-harm crisis, please call the National Hotline, or if you know someone who is, please call the National Hotline for self-harm. Sorry guys, that got a little bit away from me for a minute. Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of 10 to Life. I will keep you updated if that is what you want, and let's just all collectively pray together that all mothers get the help that they need, so that we never have to talk about a case like this again. Alright, thank you and until then, stay safe, bye. [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]