Lindsay Clancy - Part 1: The Killing of the Clancy Children | #466

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Go to Chime.com forward slash disclosures for details. The story of Lindsay Clancy and what happened in the basement of 47 Summer Street on the 24th of January 2023 is anything but straightforward. At the heart of it, three children, Cora, age five, Dawson, age three, and eight-month-old Callan, were brutally murdered in their own home by the woman they trusted the most, their mother. From the moment of her arrest, Lindsay Clancy has never disputed that fact. And I know there are people out there who question this, and we'll deal with that later in this episode. That was going to be my first question for you because I, you know, haven't written this one. I'm quite glad I haven't written this one, actually. I think it might have had quite a irreversible effect on my mental health. But I can confirm I what I have been served on on the TikToks is quite a lot of people talking about husband. So I want to know where you stand before we even, before we even do anything. Before we even do it, if, I mean, like, yeah, if it wasn't clear from my introduction, Lindsay Clancy killed her children. Patrick Clancy did not kill his children and frame Lindsay Clancy. Like I said, we will deal with that at the end of the episode. And, you know, maybe it's refreshing to get that out there now because all the people who are going to vehemently disagree with me and don't want to hear why that's not the case can just stop listening now if that's what they choose to do. But, like, I just, I don't know. I literally don't know. Well, I do know what to say because it's in this episode, but no. Lindsay Clancy killed her children. Let's get it all out on the table. Let's go for it. Because absolutely, like, Lindsay Clancy has never disputed that fact. And from the police and the prosecution to the defence, Lindsay Clancy's own defence, and everyone who knew Lindsay Clancy and Lindsay Clancy herself, they are all in total agreement that Lindsay killed her children. The question isn't who, the question is why. And why? Hmm. So, is Lindsay Clancy a cold-blooded killer who was sick of her three children? Did she murder them to be free of the burdens of motherhood and to start again? Or was Lindsay Clancy a victim of medical malpractice, struggling with severe postpartum paralysis, and perhaps even undiagnosed bipolar II, desperately and repeatedly seeking help for her deteriorating mental health? Only to be shunted from one pill to another, and seemingly failed by every professional she encountered. And in the end, killing her children in a psychotic break. Or was it something else altogether? This was the quandary at the centre of the trial that has just played out in Plymouth Superior Court in Massachusetts. And with the trial now finished, let's talk about it. But before we do, it's worth mentioning, if we haven't already skirted around that topic, that this case got a lot of attention online. More than I honestly think I have seen for a case in a very, very, very long time. So, I know that people have their opinions, very, very strong ones. All I can say is that I, over the month of August, have watched, every day of this trial, with an open mind. And I have changed my mind repeatedly on certain things. And we're going to talk about it all over the next two weeks. This does have to be a two-parter. There is so much. I've never had so many notes for a case before. I think I had like about 150 pages of notes at one point. Oh, I know. I was monitoring you. It's all going on. And like, literally, I was in bed last night. I felt like I was fizzing. I felt like I was having too much information in my head. I needed like what Dumbledore's got in Harry Potter, where he can just like pull things out of his brain and put it into that like sphere. And that sphere for me was this Google Doc sheet. Like, it's just, it's a lot of information. There's a lot of information. So yes, we're going to talk about it over the next two weeks. And we're not all going to agree at the end. Like, I think that is pretty much evident based on the discourse that's going on online. We're not all going to agree at the end. And also. That's fine. Yes, that's absolutely fine. And it's fine to also change your mind. And all of those other things, we don't have to, you know, plot each other's demises, you know? No. So please, like, you know, don't murder each other in the comments section. Like, don't fight about it. Like, it's just a lot of like, anger and vitriol and like toxicity. And I'm just like, what do people care what I say? They're going to do what they want. I'm just saying, guys, don't do it. Don't do it. But I think the thing that I have thought about with this case, that it really feels like the reason I think it invokes so much like passion, various reasons, but one of them is it kind of feels like the ultimate Rorschach test, like the ultimate Rorschach test. Because to me, I feel like every piece of evidence when examined is like an inkblot that to some looks like insanity, to some looks like cold-blooded murder, and to some looks like a totally unhinged conspiracy theory. But I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed, where this week, it's part one of the Lindsay Clancy case. On Tuesday, the 24th of January 2023, it had seemed like a pleasant day at the Clancy household. Patrick, Lindsay's husband, was working from home in his office down in the basement, and Lindsay had been looking after the kids. She had taken Cora to a doctor's appointment earlier in the day. It was her five-year health checkup. And Cora? Cora was thriving. The only issue was that the little girl had been struggling with a bit of a dodgy tummy, so the doctor prescribed some medication. While Lindsay and Cora were out, three-year-old Dawson had got dressed all by himself for the first time ever, and Patrick had sent Lindsay a picture of their son proudly punching the air. When Lindsay and Cora got home, together with Dawson, they played outside in the snow. The kids built a snowman, and Lindsay sent pictures of them. Beaming next to their very impressive, tall creation, to Patrick, and also to her mum. At 4.02pm, Lindsay did a Google search on her phone for Miralax for kids, the over-the-counter laxative that the doctor had recommended for Cora. Eleven minutes later, at 4.13pm, she Googled a place called 3V. It's a restaurant in nearby Plymouth. Immediately after this, Lindsay went on Apple Maps to check the route from the Clancy family home in Duxbury to the restaurant 3V. And then 30 minutes later, at 4.47pm, Lindsay called the CVS pharmacy in Kingston, not far from 3V, to see if they had Miralax in stock. They did. So six minutes later, at 4.53pm, Lindsay texts Patrick, who, as we said, was working downstairs, saying that she hadn't cooked anything for dinner, as it had been a long day, and was he okay if they just got a takeaway from 3V? Patrick was happy. And the couple text over the next few minutes about the menu and what they each wanted to eat. And at 5.10pm, Lindsay called the restaurant to place their order. Patrick wrapped up work and left the house just before 5.15pm. And as he left, Lindsay asked him if he could also stop off at the nearby CVS to pick up some medicine for Cora. Patrick asked her to text him the details, which Lindsay did, within minutes. And Patrick decided to make this his first stop. CCTV shows that Patrick arrived at the CVS at 5.30pm. From here, Patrick. phoned Lindsay at 5.33pm. At first, she didn't answer, but she called him back a couple of minutes later. This call lasted just 14 seconds. According to Patrick, the CVS didn't have any more of the Miralax, so he was checking with Lindsay if another brand was okay, and Lindsay had told him that it was fine. So, with the medicine in hand, Patrick then drove to 3V, where he picked up their food order just before 6pm, and he arrived back home at around 6.09. But as soon as he was inside, Patrick says he knew that something was wrong. The house was way too quiet. He called out for Lindsay and the kids, but no one replied. Patrick said he then went room by room, and when he got upstairs, he noticed that the door to the master bedroom was locked, which was weird. He forced it open and saw blood on the floor. And a bloody knife on the bedside table. The window was also open, and there was blood on the frame. He ran downstairs and into the garden, and there was Lindsay, lying in the snow, with her wrists and her throat, slashed. But she was still conscious. Patrick says that he asked her, what did you do? To which Lindsay told him she'd tried to kill herself. He immediately called 911 and asked her what she was doing. She said she was trying to kill herself. She said she was asking Lindsay where the children were. She told him, in the basement. Patrick stayed with Lindsay until the first responders got to the scene, which was about four to six minutes after he had placed the emergency call. I want to tell you about a new podcast that has me hooked. It's called Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione. And it's from our friends over at ABC Audio and 2020. If you already know the story, you already know the story. In December, 2024, shots rang out on a Manhattan sidewalk, and UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson was shot dead. Luigi Mangione has pled guilty to federal charges. But there's so much more to this story than what unfolded on the street that day. In the new podcast, Burden of Proof, Luigi Mangione, ABC News legal analyst Brian Buckmeyer goes deep into this case and what it all means. 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And what it all means. Whatever you feel, or think you know about the case of Luigi Mangione and Brian Thompson, this podcast will make you think more critically. Confession. It was only then I realized I was somehow paying for at least five things I literally couldn't even remember signing up for, and loads that basically did the same stuff. With Rocket Money, you can set budgets and goals, get personalized insights, and regular, reports into your spending habits, and get real-time alerts for any upcoming bills or large transactions. And yes, let's talk about this now because I know later this whole scene, this whole situation will become a major point of contention. With people saying, well, Lindsay couldn't speak for weeks after this incident. So how did she supposedly tell Patrick where to go that night? How did Patrick know that the kids were in the basement? And honestly, the 911, has not been released publicly. And at first I was like, good, fucking good. We don't need to hear it. If it was out there publicly and I'm researching this case, I would have listened to it. And I don't need that in my brain right now. I really don't. But having thought about it and seen all of the like shit that's happened on the internet since, I kind of feel like it is a mistake that it's not being made public. If for nothing else than Patrick Clancy's sake. Because some people who have heard it in court, like, you know, podcasters or people who went to court, like reporters and things like that, have said, some of them have said that you could hear Lindsay speaking to Patrick on the 911 call and you can hear her say the word basement. But Kevin Reddington, Lindsay's defense attorney, who you'll meet in much more detail next week, said in court that you can't hear Lindsay at all. And I don't know for sure because I haven't heard the 911 call. So we can only go on like these secondhand sources, right? But I don't know for sure because I haven't heard the 911 call. But just in case you've been living under a rock and you don't know, there is, as we talked about at the start of this episode, a contingent of people online, mainly on TikTok, who think that Patrick is the real killer. And basically that he set this whole thing up, killed his kids and then framed his wife, Lindsay. And they claim that if Lindsay couldn't speak and she couldn't speak for weeks afterwards, how did he know where the kids were? Well, we know that she was definitely at least when the EMTs got there because they back it up. So in my mind, I'm like, so what? Even if she couldn't speak? So what? Even if you can't hear her say the word basement? Are you really telling me that she couldn't have, for example, mouthed the word basement to Patrick when he asked her where are the kids? Because obviously after what's happened here, that's going to be his next question is where are the three fucking kids? One of them is eight months old and he's already searched the whole house, according to him. So he is like, where are the kids? She couldn't have said the word basement. Like, I don't feel like using your words vocally isn't the answer. You can communicate with someone. And also just because Lindsay didn't speak for weeks after this to anyone else, it doesn't mean that she couldn't. Like not speaking is a good way to get out of answering any questions immediately. And I'm not saying that's because I think she's lying about anything. I'm just saying either because you're guilty or because you're coming out of psychosis and you're in a state of shock. Like, yes, she had a spinal injury, but like, I don't know. I if she couldn't speak and she couldn't say the word basement to him, how did he know they were in the basement? He must be lying because he put them in there. She could have literally just mouthed the word basement. And the EMTs were like, she was moaning. She was groaning. She was like responding to things they were saying, even if she wasn't using her words. Yeah. And I feel like you can do all sorts of things when you're in shock. Yeah. I don't know. It's not enough of a like, this is the thing. It's like, I haven't seen anything that's a smoking gun. And I know I keep saying this. We'll talk about it at the end of the episode where I kind of have gone through all of the main points that people bring up from people who are in the Patrick is the real killer camp. But like, this is one of their big ones, right? Is that how did he know they were in the basement? And I really don't think it's that big a stretch to say Lindsay told him or she mouthed it or somehow indicated to him that they were in the basement. And if we believe Patrick that Lindsay was able to communicate with him, she didn't tell him that she had hurt the we have to believe that she was still in a psychotic state at this point. If she had snapped and killed the children, had she not snapped out of it at this point to tell Patrick, oh, I've heard the kids go and help them? Yeah, Patrick never says, and the EMTs never say that there's any urgency from her to go get the kids, go get the kids. So one of the things that people say is if she killed the kids in a psychotic state, are we then to believe that when she's out of the window on the floor, the EMTs are there, she's still in a psychotic state or she's still in that state because she never alerts anybody to the urgency of the situation that's going on in the basement, if you see what I mean. Yeah, yeah, I get you. Again, I really don't want people to jump on individual things we're saying. Please, let's go through it all. As we always say on the show, it's the totality of the evidence. And people can also be like, well, you're interpreting too much here or there. But this is what the jury had to do. Like I said, I watched every day of the trial. These are the bits of information that were given to the jury that they are going to have to do. to make an assessment on. So, you know, this is a thought process. This is a work in progress. Maybe by the end of it, we'll all change our minds. But we have to go on this journey. So let's get back to our timeline. Once EMTs began working on Lindsay, Patrick, who was still on the phone with 911, headed into the house to find the kids. He headed down into the basement, presumably expecting to find his three scared children locked up in his office. I guess thinking that Lindsay had shut them away while she attempted to take her own life. But horrifically, Patrick discovered in the basement, the bodies of Cora, Dawson and Callan. Each of his children had been strangled with a separate exercise band, bands that were still tied around their necks. And I think I don't want people to imagine like those kind of flimsy, rubber, stretchy bands. These are much more substantial. These are much more substantial because the Commonwealth get it out. We show people at trial. So we've seen them. They're pretty hardcore. So Patrick, who was still on the phone with 911 at this point, is heard screaming. That's what we we've heard from people who have had the 911 call. And then he begs the operators to send more help as he unties the exercise bands from around his children's throats. The EMTs who are outside also hear him screaming and head into the house where Patrick tells them she's killed the fucking kids. And another thing. I do want to say here for how Patrick about the whole basement situation is that the EMTs, when they hear screaming, they don't know where it's coming from. And they obviously have radios that are connected to dispatch. And when they're like, where is that screaming coming from? Dispatch tell them he's in the basement. And Patrick says later that he forgot at first that he was even on the phone with 911. So maybe we are to believe the people that said they heard Lindsay say basement on the 911 call. Is that how the dispatcher knew? Again, I don't know. I don't know. Paramedics found that the kids, like Lindsay, weren't actually dead yet, but they were in a very serious state. Five-year-old Cora and three-year-old Dawson were taken to Beth Israel Hospital in Plymouth while eight-month-old Callan was airlifted to Boston Children's Hospital. Tragically, both Cora and Dawson died that evening. Baby Callan held on for three more days. But on the 27th of January, he died too. Meanwhile, Lindsay was being treated at South Shore Hospital. She had a fractured spine and every one of her ribs was broken. The fall from the window had left the 33-year-old permanently paralysed from the sternum down. So, she had to remain in hospital under armed guard and handcuffed to her bed. It would be weeks before she would speak. Communicating in the meantime with the help of a whiteboard. According to hospital staff, her first question was, Do I need an attorney? On the 27th of February, 2023, nearly a month after the killings, Lindsay joined her first arraignment hearing via Zoom from her hospital bed. She was charged with three counts of murder and three counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. Lindsay admitted to killing her children, but pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. And it's important to point out that the laws and regulations in Massachusetts with regards to this defence are different to the majority of other states in the US. And this is obviously very important, but we're going to save that explanation and that comparison for the end of this episode before we get into the trial next week. So, if anyone's listened to like our Andrea Yates episode or is aware of that case, which is probably the most infamous, most sort of similar case, and people are obviously making a lot of comparisons between the two, the way in which the justice system will deal with both of those cases is very different because, Andrea Yates was tried in Texas and Lindsay Clancy was tried in Massachusetts under very different laws. For now, we're going to go through the investigation and the months leading up to the murders. Using CCTV cell phone data and text messages, the police were able to piece together the timeline we just walked you through for the day in question. And investigators' interviews with Patrick and Lindsay's wider family revealed a difficult four-month-long struggle with Lindsay's murder. and Lindsay's mental health following the birth of her youngest child, Callan. Even the couple's friends told the police that Patrick and Lindsay had openly discussed with them how hard things had been for Lindsay and how difficult it had been for them to get her the right help. Lindsay's phone also showed that for months she had been tracking her moods, symptoms, medications, feelings and thoughts. And they seemed to line up with what Patrick, her friends and her family were all saying. Lindsay had been in the throes of a murder. a very difficult postpartum period. And she had also been to see multiple doctors, nurses and psychologists trying to get help for whatever was going on. Lindsay Clancy had even called a suicide hotline on multiple occasions and voluntarily admitted herself to a psychiatric hospital. Over the course of those four months, Lindsay Clancy had been prescribed 13 different medications by a variety of mental health professionals. And her diaries and text messages showed that she had been prescribed a lot of medications. And she had been prescribed a lot of medications. Because it was only after the murders of the children that Lindsay mentioned hearing a voice. And look, that is in itself a bit of a minefield because at trial the defence will claim that Lindsay actually only heard the voice telling her to kill her children and herself at the time of the murders. Never before. So there's a lot of people online saying, well she never told anybody she was hearing voices before. Her whole defence, her whole like story is that she never heard them before. She only heard them that day. That night. That specific moment when she was killing the children. But we're jumping ahead. Before we get into all the ins and outs of Lindsay's treatment, what she disclosed and what she allegedly didn't disclose, the possible conditions she was suffering from and most crucially of all, her state of mind on the 24th of January 2023, let's rewind. Lindsay and Patrick Clancy met in 2013. They'd been introduced by Patrick's cousin and for him, it was love at first sight. Three years later, in December 2016, the pair got married and the next year they had their first child, a little girl they named Cora. In 2019, they welcomed their first son, Dawson. And in May 2022, they had another baby, Callan. During that time, the family had moved to Duxbury, a picturesque little town by the sea, 35 miles southeast of Boston. They bought a big house with a big garden and life looked good. Patrick worked in tech sales for Microsoft and Lindsay was a labour and delivery nurse at Massachusetts General Hospital. When Cora was born, no one was surprised that Lindsay was a loving and committed mum. She had always wanted children, lots of children. And according to those who knew her, she was excited, present and totally engaged. Lindsay had struggled, apparently, after Cora was born with a touch of the baby's skin, the baby blues, or perhaps even a bit of postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety, but it had quickly resolved itself. After the birth of their son, Dawson, again, Lindsay had a difficult postpartum period. This time, she even went to see a psychologist. And those who knew Lindsay noted that she seemed a bit frantic, which wasn't really like her. But Lindsay didn't really get on with the therapy. She didn't find it that helpful. And so instead, she committed to a pretty rigorous exercise program and bounced back. The problem was that after baby Callan was born in 2022, Lindsay had an even worse time postpartum. Again, she threw herself into exercise, but her symptoms began to escalate as the end of her maternity leave approached. Lindsay had had three kids in five years and was seriously worried about how she was going to manage when she went back to work. The anxiety built and she started not sleeping and struggling with racing thoughts. According to Lindsay, these soon snowballed into suicidal thoughts and she knew she needed help. So, in September 2022, Lindsay went to see a psychiatrist, Dr. Jennifer Tufts. Dr. Tufts diagnosed Lindsay with severe depression and prescribed her Zoloft, an SSRI, which is a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor. At first, Lindsay was really, really reluctant to take the medication. She was still breastfeeding Callan, and while Zoloft is considered to be safe for breastfeeding mothers to take, understandably, Lindsay was very cautious. However, after a few more weeks without the situation improving, Lindsay started taking the medication and began the process of weaning Callan off breast milk, something that she writes down saying she feels incredibly guilty about. So again, I really want to make it clear, I have no thoughts at all that Lindsay is a bad mother, that she hates these kids or anything like that. She wants to be a mother, and she always wants to do what's right for them. That's definitely the feeling you get throughout the entirety of when she's having these children. She is just crippled with anxiety and with depression, and it's taking its toll. And I feel like it's one of the things that has never, ever made sense to me. But I think SSRIs are sort of chucked around a lot more freely and easily than they should be. And one of the strongest side effects is suicidal ideation. Like that's the number one. So it's always seemed completely bizarre to me that you can go to a doctor and be like, hi, I think I'm going to kill myself. And then they give you something that's supposed to help you that makes those thoughts stronger. It's really, really terrifying. And look, I really don't want to create a situation or say something that makes it sound like if you're struggling with these things, please be scared. Don't go see your doctor. Don't trust the medication they're giving you. I don't want to say that. If you are struggling, please go and see a mental health professional and get the help because you deserve it. And you don't deserve to feel like that. Like, I want to make that very clear. But at the same time, can we have a conversation around how we can help people? Hardcore pharmaceuticals being handed out, mental health like diagnosis is not easy. That's like one of the clearest things that came out of this for me. Because the other thing was Zoloft, which I really do think is like a real tipping point into like why this goes the way it does, is because at this point, Dr. Jennifer Tufts says that she thinks she has depression and anxiety, not even postpartum, just regular depression and anxiety. Very, very bad, very, very severe. But that's what she diagnoses her with. Later on, multiple doctors who see Lindsay will diagnose her with bipolar 2. And before everyone's like, you can have SSRIs with bipolar 2. Like, you literally, every one of them says, if I had a patient with bipolar 2, I would avoid, avoid, avoid SSRIs. And yes, some people are like, you can give SSRIs as long as you also add in a mood stabilizer. But it would never be your first choice. Again, I'm not a professional. I'm just telling you what the experts are saying. And if she did have undiagnosed bipolar 2, and Zoloft is basically the first thing she's given, that could absolutely have exacerbated her symptoms. And that's not guesswork. Because as we're going to find out, it absolutely did exacerbate her symptoms. That's exactly what happened. Because she starts taking them and everything gets worse. On the 20th of October 2023, Lindsay went back to Dr. Tufts and told her that her anxiety and racing thoughts had severely intensified and that she hadn't slept for days. Another thing that Zoloft will do to you, I know because I've taken it, mad restless legs that you can't sleep because your legs are twitching all the time. And that's, that's like one of the number one things that Lindsay complains about consistently is not being able to sleep, not being able to sleep, not being able to sleep. So whatever was going on with her, her not sleeping on top of that, it's just a recipe for disaster. Like it really is. And again, I really don't want to make it sound like I'm just like, oh, these, these doctors, all these doctors, like I'm not, I'm not there yet. Like we can get there and we can talk about the medical treatment that Lindsay Clancy received. I appreciate it's really difficult to treat mental health conditions. It's not the same as like taking a blood test and figuring out what's wrong with somebody. I get that. Yes, I agree. And I don't want to be sort of, I'm sure like there are loads of people out there who take SSRIs and that helps them. I think the point is that like they so often in lots of anecdotal experiences and also personal experience of mine and my family, like they seem to be always the first thing that gets prescribed. And I think that's what I find quite difficult. Anyway, Dr. Tufts took Lindsay off the Zoloft and now prescribed her with Ativan, or you can call that lorazepam as well, and told her to take Benadryl to help with her sleep. But that didn't help either. Lindsay couldn't sleep and her anxiety was just getting worse and worse. On the 16th of November, Lindsay went to the emergency room at South Shore Hospital. Where she reported having insomnia and extreme anxiety. The physicians there prescribed her with Trazodone, a sleep aid. But again, this didn't help. And Lindsay felt that it made her worse. Four days later, Patrick's mum, Susan, who was also a labour and delivery nurse, called South Shore's perinatal department herself. She was worried about her daughter-in-law. And Patrick was so concerned that he had arranged for his parents and Lindsay's parents to take it in turns to come and stay at their house. He had to keep working. And he knew that Lindsay needed as much support as possible. And that is another thing I want to point out. At no point is there, like, Patrick trying to cut Lindsay off from, like, friends or family. Like, he's constantly, like, to his parents and her parents, please come stay with us. Please come help us. Like, we need this help and this support. And they do. They do. They are an incredibly, like, tight-knit, supportive family. Lindsay writes repeatedly in her journals how much she is grateful for her mother-in-law, how close she is to her mother-in-law, how close she is to her mother-in-law. Like, this isn't like, I just keep thinking about Andrea Yates on that fucking bus. I was just going to say that. It's like quite literally the opposite of what Andrea Yates' husband did. It's really, really not the same thing. It's really not the same thing. So yes, days later, on the recommendation of her mother-in-law, Lindsay went to see Julie Poole, a psychiatric nurse practitioner at South Shore Health's perinatal behavioural health programme. Nurse Poole gave her a postnatal depression test, and she scored a staggering 23 out of 30, which points to severe depression. At this time, Lindsay was prescribed Prozac, another antidepressant and SSRI. But again, it just made Lindsay even worse. Her thoughts were racing, her anxiety was through the roof, and she still wasn't sleeping. So Nurse Poole took her off the drug. And I think they tried Prozac here because it turns out that Lindsay had taken Prozac before, and she was still sleeping. When she was at university, and she had been fine. She had been fine when she had taken it then, and she had obviously said this and was open to taking it again. I think something I've seen a lot of people talk about is, and I don't have this experience necessarily, is a lot of people talking about how a drug taken pre-pregnancy versus post-childbirth can affect a person mentally in a completely different way because of how much brain chemistry and things like that change. So just because she took it in university and was fine, as a 33-year-old woman now who's had three children, it's not guaranteed that it's going to be the same thing. But like I said, Nurse Poole takes her off the drug. She takes her off Prozac. My mum completely lost the ability to eat any spicy food after she had children. It was just like a light switch. She just couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, it's bizarre. It's bizarre. But then also kind of not because like, your brain just like completely rebuilds itself. And like, I think it's something insane, like years before it like, even gets back to like the capacity you had before. Not that you're like you lose like, certain functions because your brain is like, right, we have to hyper focus on like keeping this baby alive. Crucially, after all of these visits to doctors and clinicians, there still was no change to Lindsay's diagnosis. It was still all being put down as severe depression and anxiety. And a lot has been made about the fact that no one took Lindsay's bloods to check if she was metabolising the drugs that she was being prescribed properly, which could have explained why her symptoms kept getting worse. But medical experts who testified at trial have said that these tests wouldn't really have proven much. There were also repeated claims that Lindsay's thyroid was never checked. But again, we found out at trial that that's just not true. Lindsay's thyroid function was checked in November 2022. And it was completely normal. So with things not getting better, the medications kept coming. Next, Lindsay was given Ambien, a sedative hypnotic medication, then Remeron, another antidepressant, and then Klonopin, a benzodiazepine. After Lindsay took the Remeron, she actually reported that she had started to dissociate. She felt like she was disconnecting from herself and the world. The only drug that seemed to make Lindsay feel any better at all was a drug named Ativan. But Lindsay was expressing a lot of concern that she was worried that she was growing addicted to it. Even though she hadn't been taking it for long. And look, Lindsay is a nurse and I'm sure she has witnessed addiction firsthand. So I don't blame her for being cautious. I've seen a lot of people just being like, she finds something that works and then immediately that's a problem. She's already not feeling great. She's severely depressed and severely anxious and she's not sleeping. And also, come on, you only have to take a look at the addiction problems that are rife throughout the US because of other medications. I don't blame her Of course she's going to be concerned, and I would say also that I have definitely experienced similar fears or concerns around medication addiction but Lindsay was told by the prescriber please if it's working keep taking it and she was given assurances that she would be monitored and not to worry about dependency because they had to get her better first well it's a it's a cost-benefit analysis isn't it like yeah it's and I don't want to to sound like I'm being dismissive of like addiction concerns or whatever because like Ativan is fucking delicious i can see why i've also seen like criticism of this doctor online but like i can see why a doctor would be like why don't we just get you a bit more level and then we can deal with other things but the what we need to happen now is we need you to sleep because we're not going to be able to fix anything until that starts happening yeah and i believe the person who prescribed her ativan was actually the person we're going to speak about next who's the nurse practitioner rebecca gelata but you're right that there's been criticism of all of the doctors all of the nurses all of the practitioners and i'm not saying that people didn't make mistakes i'm not saying nothing went wrong we're going to go into that but i also think it's a very very complicated situation and and yes they're like lindsey is worried about addiction i get that i get it but at the same time they're like we're going to watch you please please keep taking it if this is what's going to help it's a really really complicated situation it is a complicated situation i think it also speaks to lindsey's personality which is also something that is worth talking about from everything you understand about lindsey throughout her life she's been a very disciplined person i think she has put in place systems i think she has struggled with her mental health for a long time without talking about it or without maybe even acknowledging it to herself and her workarounds for how she was going to do that was to be incredibly disciplined to be incredibly rigorous she was obsessed with exercise and fitness and i think that's how she managed her symptoms for a very long time and then every time she got pregnant i think it was like another blow like another punch that like completely shook her first two times she'd been able to bounce back and i think the drugs are taking away her control but at the same time her brain is losing control because she's spiraling but it's also her brain standing in the way of maybe her getting better because she's resistant to some of the drugs as we'll see she was also resistant to some of the diagnoses that were maybe suggested to her it's a fucking minefield and this is why mental health care is so difficult as well like oh yeah it's it's a really really difficult thing i think it's you know it's it's very very apparent that she is trying so hard to get it under control she's doing all of the things that you get told to do like exercise and also the tracking your mood it's a very difficult thing to do when you feel like shit because you can't be arsed but she's doing it it is so obvious that she is like giving this everything she has to try and get back a hundred percent i think if there's anything i'm going to say about lindsey clancy is that she tried she tried everything i and i and yes there's obviously people who are like well she was resistant to this that and the other and she didn't help herself and you know we will talk about that in a sec but i think again it's like it's not that simple it's not that simple to like just place the blame on her and she's a nurse she's not a moron like no she's not at all she knows what she's talking about definitely and i think she is trying she she's again she's a nurse she knows i should track my symptoms i should track my mood i should journal she speaks in very therapeutic language she writes down affirmation she's really trying to change her mindset on the 29th of november lindsey saw another professional the one i just mentioned and that's psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner rebecca gelata again at south shore hospital lindsey told gelata that she was terrified because she didn't understand why she was getting worse and worse and i really think again that comes back to this frustration that lindsey felt is how can i be doing everything right i eat healthily i exercise i've stopped drinking i take the medication i go and see the therapist i go and see do everything everyone is telling me why am i getting worse and i can't imagine how terrifying that would be i can't imagine if you feel like you're leaving nothing on the table and you're still getting worse that must be a very very dark place to be and that's where lindsey is now nurse gelata prescribed lindsey saraquil which is an antipsychotic used to treat bipolar schizophrenia and major depressive disorders again lindsey's diagnosis wasn't actually changed and again lindsey's symptoms heightened her appetite disappeared and she lost seven kilos in mere weeks she started having panic attacks and described feeling completely emotionless like a zombie by early december the clancy family was in a state of crisis and on the 6th of december patrick went with lindsey to an appointment with nurse gelata and he told her in no uncertain terms that lindsey had become quote 10 000 times worse since she started taking the saraquil patrick also asked if they could just stop all of the drugs and get it all out of lindsey's system and start again from scratch and gelata said maybe but insisted she increased lindsey's dosage of saraquil and again that didn't help i want to tell you about a new podcast that has me hooked it's called burdened of proof luigi mangione and it's from our friends over at abc audio and 2020 if you already know the story you already know the story in december 2024 shots rang out on a manhattan sidewalk and united healthcare ceo brian thompson was shot dead luigi mangione has pled guilty to federal charges but there's so much more to this story than what unfolded on the street that day in the new podcast burden of proof luigi mangione abc news legal analyst brian buckmeyer goes deep into this case and what it all means he'll unpack the murder itself the two men at the heart of the story and how this case has affected the conversation about health care in america whatever you feel or think you know about the case of luigi mangione and brian thompson this podcast will make you think more critically follow the burden of proof luigi mangione wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on apple podcast by subscribing to 2020 true crime plus again that's burden of proof luigi mangione i have a confession i hannah mcguire am a subscriptions hoarder and i didn't even realize how bad it was until i started using rocket money it was only then i realized i was somehow paying for at least five things i literally couldn't even remember signing up for and loads that basically did the same stuff rocket money helped me finally track those pesky subscriptions and i was able to cancel the unwanted ones in just a few taps and now i can actually focus on saving for the things i do want with rocket money you can set budgets and goals get personalized insights and regular reports into your spending habits and get real-time alerts for any upcoming bills or large transactions the app consolidates all of your savings your loans and investments into one easy to read dashboard so now i can finally see the bigger picture rocket money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings let rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster join at rocket money.com red-handed that's rocketmoney.com slash red-handed rocketmoney.com slash red-handed and in the weeks after patrick called nurse gelata's office repeatedly to tell them that lindsey was deteriorating by now his wife could barely get out of bed most days gelata suggested that perhaps they needed to look at a bipolar diagnosis but both lindsey and patrick were adamant that this wasn't correct and they pushed back and look i don't know if lindsey has bipolar 2 or not still to this day experts are disagreeing on what was actually going on or what is actually going on with lindsey clancy but it is worth saying that the majority of experts who have assessed lindsey since the murders have diagnosed her with bipolar 2 some argue that late onset bipolar is incredibly rare and the vast majority of people with bipolar 2 have diagnosed her with bipolar 2 start showing signs before the age of 25 but of course undiagnosed bipolar disorder can also be severely exacerbated by pregnancy and childbirth and i can understand why this is confusing why were the clancy's unwilling to explore this diagnosis and why did nurse gelata drop the bipolar conversation once she received this like pushback from the clancy's i think resistance to mental health diagnoses is uh not a good thing and i think it's a good thing that the clancy's not particularly uncommon and i can see why you'd be like well if this is going to help you why are you pushing back on it but it's it's there's a huge stigma around it and also like even um i think a big misunderstanding is quite often when someone gets put on antipsychotics they are resistant because they're like i'm but i'm not psychotic lots of people who are depressed are put on antipsychotics and get better on them even though they're not experiencing psychosis i think people get that quite mixed up so i can't really understand why people aren't understanding why lindsey might have just been like no i'm not having that label absolutely i i completely think it's not that bizarre to me that she felt that way i'm not saying it was the best idea but i'm not shocked at all that she felt that way and i think that you know people saying again like oh like you said late onset bipolar 2 is very rare usually it starts to show much earlier and like sure but what we know about lindsey's i like i said i think she always feels like she's in a lot of trouble and i think she's in a lot of trouble with her mental health but because she had such a like a strict and disciplined life i think she was managing without medication and with like managing her symptoms herself until the childbirth and then it pushed it it made it harder it made it harder and each time it made it harder and then i think because she was thinking i've always been fine i've always controlled myself i've always been good now you're telling me i've got bipolar too like fuck off i am not surprised i think lindsey and patrick were convinced that lindsey's plight was only to do with postpartum because it reared its head every time she had a child and i think they didn't want a bipolar diagnosis because yes we can all talk about mental health awareness and acceptance but there is no denying there is still a lot of stigma that makes people scared and uncomfortable with labels that they are just not willing to accept and yeah according to some sources as well lindsey is still today resisting the bipolar diagnosis so i don't know and as for why nurse gelato dropped it because i understand people are like so what she just gets to say or patrick and her just get to say she doesn't have bipolar and is that mental health treatment has a history of forcible treatment on non-consenting patients slash victims and i think a lot of practitioners are therefore very careful to try and avoid that perception like what are they going to do she's saying i don't have bipolar too yeah again another one of the challenges of treating mental health challenges because you can't just be like well i think you do and you're going to take this medication like do you know what i mean like what can she do and also she the last thing that nurse gelato needs to happen is for lindsey to in this situation is lindsey and patrick are going and they are laying it all out on the table because you know a lot of people lie a lot of people lie and don't say you know what's really going on but they're not doing that so i can understand why she is like at least she's talking to me like i can't lose that element of this treatment program or i'm really fucked you know yeah absolutely and mental health treatment these days is heavily based on trial and error because a blood test or an mri can't just provide a clear diagnosis of what the fuck's wrong with you and if you add that to how many of these conditions can be comorbid or overlap in their presentation and symptoms it just really is not that easy diagnosis of mental health conditions also requires trust and willingness from the patient like i was just saying you cannot force people to comply unless you're willing to section them but if you section someone you have changed their life forever like if you're sectioned there are there are countries you cannot go to if you are sectioned like it is a real in the road if you do that to someone it's not something to be done lightly at all but the problem is if lindsey does have bipolar some of the medications that she was being prescribed like zoloft or any of the other sris just would not have been advisable for her to take and could in fact have made her much much worse which is pretty demonstrably what happened and if lindsey does have bipolar too it could absolutely also have made her postpartum experience worse while i was researching this case i remembered years ago years ago east enders actually tackled this in a storyline i don't know if you were an east enders girl i was an east enders girl i did used to watch east enders really and back in 2015 2015 11 years ago stacy slater's character on the show developed postpartum psychosis after giving birth to her son arthur she did yes it was a huge struggle and it was a huge struggle and it was a huge struggle storyline and like i think back to that now and i think how groundbreaking that they actually talked about such a difficult topic and i thought lacey turner did a fantastic job acting in that she did such a good job i love lacey turner oh she's fantastic she did so much research into it she really really understood what she was doing and so did the writers so did the writers and basically in the storyline uh postpartum psychosis was triggered by her existing bipolar disorder which caused her to experience terrifying hallucinations and delusions including the fact that her baby was the son of god and yeah a real like a real moment in british tv history that i remembered katie one of our producers katie you can take this out if you don't want in the show she used to be a storyliner on hollyoaks which is another soap here and in her interview process like one of the like needling questions from us was like but you you haven't done non-fiction and she was like well actually funny you say that on soaps we quite often are given something like you know the topic of postpartum psychosis or eating disorders or whatever and then we have to go away research and we have to go back and think about it and we have to go back and think about it and come back with a storyline and i was like you are hired yeah absolutely i remember like this was the golden age of soaps and tv shows and i actually did when i when i was having a bit of a like crisis at my old old job and i was like oh my god okay like do i want to be doing this do i want to do something else i actually did apply for and was very unsuccessful i didn't even hear back from them in applying for a job as like a a researcher into current affairs topics to feed into like um it was silent witness basically to to be like what's like a current crimey thing going on that you can research and then the scripters can add into the storyline and i was actually drawn to because again silent witness grand fucking dog shit now but used to be so good yeah and i remember they did a whole plot line on the fucking grooming gangs like years and years and years ago when people weren't even talking about it and yeah i just think good work eastenders for all that time ago so let's leave eastenders where it belongs in our hearts in the past in our hearts in our past our hearts right most women i think this is important to preface most women will feel a touch of the baby blues after you've had a baby you're exhausted you're full of fatigue like racing full of hormones and also your entire life has changed that is so difficult even without all of your hormones like going fucking nuts like it's difficult even moving house you're unsettled you're untethered and nothing is more like your life will not change more it's so it's such a transition but most women if they are feeling a bit blue do get better it does go away as you're sleeping more and you're breastfeeding that can improve it too it is hard to imagine how this wouldn't happen post-birth a woman's body goes through a hormonal drop that's unprecedented in the human experience way more than during adolescence or menopause and then there's sleep deprivation on top of that and it's okay to not be okay one in seven women will experience postpartum depression which usually requires therapy or perhaps medication but it can resolve itself one in two thousand women will experience postpartum psychosis and i have seen a lot of people online not differentiating the two things which i think is really dangerous and we need to be very careful in the way we word things because they are different and we need to be very careful in the way we word things because they are different things thank you absolutely postpartum psychosis is incredibly serious and results in mothers having a break with reality sometimes making them a danger to themselves and their children important to say as well with postpartum psychosis it won't get better on its own like you need to go and see a doctor if you are experiencing postpartum psychosis and it's also very very important to say that postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis are not on a continuum can we just repeat this a million times they are not on a continuum they are totally as hannah just said separate conditions and while i have seen a lot of women online talking about their experiences with postpartum depression and yes of course women sharing stories about this condition is something we should all absolutely encourage to destigmatize mothers from seeking help if they need it but i have also seen and agree with a lot of medical and psychiatric professionals and doctors who have been talking about postpartum depression and postpartum depression and doctors who have been talking about postpartum depression and doctors asking people to not say that they relate with lindsey clancy saying that we must not conflate ppd and ppp or whatever was going on with lindsey clancy because like i said we still don't even know that led her to kill her kids because that could just inadvertently lead to more stigma if people think like at any point you're just on the brink of like murdering your children it's it's a very very dangerous precedent to set and look i think that the reaction online to this the over relating to lindsey clancy which like i'm a bit like you can have empathy for her and i have empathy for her i see how hard she worked but like this we are all lindsey clancy making lindsey clancy a martyr it makes me feel really uncomfortable because she murdered her three children i i don't understand and i've also seen a lot and i and i really you know toot and froat about whether to even say it but like i've seen a lot of women like in a very like like positive way like hey who else we're like walking around with their babies and i saw this one where she's like walking past a wood chipper and she's like has anybody just thought about like throwing their baby in a wood chipper because they've been feeling so like you know stressed out and anxious and i'm like maybe that's an inside thought maybe that's not something we put on the internet and again people will be like why that's her experience my point is right is a lot of things suicide included or a lot of mental health conditions can be exacerbated by social we know that's true with eating disorders we know it's true with suicide these things occur in spates because they are socially contagious so is it great that women are talking about their experiences sure but is it good that women are gleefully talking about or jokingly talking about how they've thought about killing their children i'm sure that every mother has felt that way at some point but it really makes me feel very uncomfortable because it's like we're trivializing it and i'm I am. honestly we've been doing this for 10 years next year right and I don't think there's many cases that have like really got to either of us like really got their hooks in but the thought to me of those three children Cora Dawson and Callan who have all been but forgotten in the discourse around this case they were just at home with their mum they were just at home with their mum their dad had just popped out to get some food and then something happens in that house and their mother is killing them with exercise bands not something that would have happened quickly and I'm like why are we trivializing this and making jokes about killing our children it's really deeply disturbing and it's honestly it's also like the discourse around this has also made me come the closest I've come to just hating true crime and being like I don't I don't like this I don't like the way people are speaking about this but yeah I think it's just it's a lot it's a lot yeah no I'm with you I think by conflating PPD and PPP and saying they're continuing and also being flippant when you're talking about the most terrifying thing that can happen to a woman right it can just completely change who you are at a very very fundamental cellular level and that isn't funny it is rare but it can happen to anybody and it's not because you're a bad person or because of anything you've done it can just happen but to conflate it with postpartum depression which is a very very common or even just like I'm a bit tired because I've had a baby yeah absolutely what that means is that somebody who might really really really need help might not go to a doctor because they don't want the like assumption to be that she's going to chuck her baby in a wood chipper you know and then they won't get their help and they will get worse or this sort of normalizing in society of that would be an okay thing to do when because you're having a difficult time which is also clear to me I think it's a very common thing to do and I think it's a very common thing to do kind of what it it feels like and it's the worst thing that can happen to these women and it's the worst thing that can happen to these children that are in these positions so I don't know a lot of it is very strange to me and I've really tried to stay away from it for my own mental health let's just be careful how we're discussing all this I think postpartum psychosis is rare but it is so dangerous and shockingly it's not in the dsm-5 that is shocking I was shocked by that I was like it's not in the dsm-5 like I don't know weird very very very weird dsm-5 is the diagnostic and statistical manual version 5 which is the bible so to speak for mental health clinicians when it comes to diagnosing patients to be clear you can still be diagnosed with postpartum psychosis it just isn't in that book even though we've recognized ppp for thousands of years Hippocrates wrote about it in 400 BC and this is the other thing actually that I wanted to talk about because it's again very dangerous I think to just conflate like oh well you know women women and their hormones they could just go crazy at any point and kill anybody including their own fucking children like hysteria that literally came from like wandering womb saying the womb was making this woman crazy I just think we need to be so careful about how we're talking about because it's it's you know filicide isn't unheard of of course it's not but it is not an everyday occurrence and I think conflating ordinary levels of like anxiety and stress that are naturally going to occur when you have a baby with postpartum psychosis yeah dangerous but anyway I think we've made our point sticking with ppp for a sec though it also sadly seems to be the case it's at least in the US that there is no standardized training and no clean insurance pathway for the condition either which no doubt adds to the fact that ppp is not a ppp is often very hard to get a diagnosis for and because it's rare doctors are probably also going to be quite hesitant to diagnose it and they may not even have much experience with the condition so many of the medical professionals in this they were asked at trial like how many women have you treated with ppp and they're like not many because even in a long career you might just not experience that also the woman suffering from ppp won't necessarily divulge or disclose what's really going on with them one of the symptoms of ppp is obviously paranoia and it can be hearing voices and those voices could absolutely be telling them to not tell anyone and disclosures in therapy obviously take a foundation of trust speaking of disclosures it was around this time that Lindsay made a disturbing revelation at home one day in December 2023 less than a month before the murders Lindsay confessed to Patrick and her mother Paula that she was having thoughts about hurting the kids which is a very brave thing to do absolutely and Paula and Patrick say she came in she looked very scared and then she said it to us can you even imagine saying those words out of your mouth I can't I can't so yes very brave for her to do this it doesn't seem that Patrick or Paula told anyone else about this at the time they just asked Lindsay if she felt she couldn't be around the kids to which she told them no she was just scared and she also kind of says maybe it's not me that's gonna do it but something bad is going to happen to the kids so it kind of like I think people also like reframe and hear what they want to like I don't think anyone wants to believe that she actually would hurt the kids so they're like oh she's just being paranoid that something bad is going to happen to them oh totally yeah nobody wants to believe that and there has been a lot of judgment on Patrick and on Paula for not doing more after this statement from Lindsay and I get it I also understand their fears they would definitely have been scared that something would happen to them and they would have been scared that something like that could have meant that the kids were taken away from them by CPS and they may have been concerned that a revelation like that could have also been detrimental to Lindsay's life and career which it would have been had it ended up on her record because she's literally a labor and delivery nurse and there are plenty of people online who reckon that Lindsay really could have lost her license over something like that I mean are you really going to say that are you really going to take a risk again I know it'd be like stigmatizing mental health but are you really going to take a risk with a woman whose children have been taken away from her after she revealed she was scared about hurting them to be like yeah come on back to your job as a labor and delivery nurse like she would have easily lost her job so I understand why people are scared again I'm not saying that they shouldn't have told the doctors or nurses treating Lindsay about this I'm not saying that I'm just saying that I understand why they were hesitant and we can live in this perfect world of like black and white and white and right or wrong or we can deal with the reality of like people's motivations and people's fears in the real world which is not that clear-cut and I also think all the people saying I would have definitely done this like sure maybe but like you don't really know until you're in that situation and I also get that if they had been honest that practitioners may have escalated the situation and taken Lindsay's case more seriously because at the moment they're just saying you know depression anxiety take these drugs go to the therapy you'll be fine you'll be fine try a different drug had this revelation been made I think it would have been an absolute like game changer in the way that they would have like handled this situation and yes I also I guess my only my my thing here is even if they didn't tell authorities which I can understand the reasons why didn't they do more to separate Lindsay from the kids themselves again I guess they're thinking she wouldn't really do anything but like is that a risk worth taking there are four grandparents involved Patrick's there like they do hire a nanny I don't know I don't know that's me though that's tough man it's very tough and like I think the thing is they really it doesn't really seem like they took Lindsay's confession to them that seriously Lindsay also never told any of her clinicians but again if she's not well can she really be relied upon to be totally honest with them it's a tricky situation and she did tell very bravely tell two people that she loved her husband and her mum and I'm not here to like sit and point fingers or blame or be like they should have done this that and the other everyone can have their opinions on that and they're probably they're definitely never going to forgive themselves for not doing something and it does feel like a really sad missed opportunity in this case where she came forward and made that disclosure to them with things still not improving on the 20th of December Lindsay went to the emergency room at Massachusetts General Hospital here she told them that her suicidal ideation was becoming more intense and she was scared something awful was going to happen Lindsay also reported that she was completely exhausted from just forcing herself to make it through the day every day and she also said that she couldn't feel any emotions at all they assessed Lindsay but decided that she didn't meet the threshold for a higher level of care so they weren't going to admit her for an inpatient psychiatric treatment instead they offered Lindsay two options the women and infants hospital and their postpartum psychiatric program in Rhode Island or McLean and she said she didn't want to go to the hospital a world-renowned psychiatric hospital in Belmont Massachusetts Lindsay chose women and infants for the partial hospitalization program so she would be in hospital all day but she would go home every night and the family must have felt such relief Lindsay was finally going to be in the best possible place to get the care that she so desperately needed but at women and infants Lindsay's condition was evaluated and the clinicians stuck with the original diagnosis of severe depression and anxiety didn't admit her onto their post. postpartum treatment program again they were reluctant to diagnose Lindsay with postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis because according to them she had no history of any such conditions even though she did go and see a therapist after Dawson was born and given the fact that these conditions typically get worse with each successive baby that's very odd that they dismissed it yeah they basically say that one of the key reasons of they're going nowhere near postpartum psychosis because she hasn't told them she's hearing voices she hasn't told them she's worried about hurting the kids like the closest they would have got to I think is postpartum depression but the reason they say that they don't think it's postpartum depression is because they said that the symptoms that Lindsay was experiencing had started much later than they'd expect so four months after the birth of her last child Callan is when she first starts reporting these symptoms and they said typically PPD or PPP start to show signs much sooner than that usually within the first three months of the birth of her last child and they said that the symptoms of PPD or PPP start to show signs much sooner than that usually in the first few weeks of the child being born now there's a lot of controversy over this with people pointing out that the World Health Organization's guidelines say that they can appear much later in line with what happened to Lindsay but the point is again even the major players in this space can't agree and women and infants decided to go with not the World Health Organization's rules or like the guidelines on this and they're like no it's shown up far too late but I do think given that Lindsay's flare-ups with mental health do seem to coincide with the birth of each child and I think it does stand to reason that postpartum is definitely playing a role in this and again if there was an undiagnosed bipolar situation in the mix then she's also missing possibly a much bigger diagnosis if you know what I mean I don't think necessarily if they'd have diagnosed her with postpartum depression put her on to this course that that would have solved all the problems because she still wasn't diagnosed with bipolar 2 at this point which could probably be a much bigger problem I feel like there's quite a lot of like oh well like typically it's actually a lot of X Y Z and like yeah but that doesn't mean every single time world over totally yeah also who knows when the symptoms really started for Lindsay as we'll see she isn't always totally open and honest with her medical providers and I do get the feeling that she likely thought that she could resolve things on her own like she had done before and she only got help when she was completely overwhelmed so just to be clear I don't think that's true I don't think that's true I don't think it's because it was four months after Callan's birth that Lindsay first went to a doctor I really don't think that means that's when her symptoms definitely definitely started people lie to doctors all the time me included it's just it's not a rare thing to like just soften the edges a bit you know I don't think that's unreasonable at all and looking at Lindsay's personality I don't think she'd have been like the first second she felt anxious or everyone she would have gone to a doctor I think from everything we know I think she would have tried everything and then only gone when she was desperate and postpartum psychosis unlike postpartum depression does not resolve on its own without treatment in any case the doctors who assess Lindsay at the specialist women and infant center didn't put Lindsay into their PPD program instead they agreed with Lindsay and Patrick that she was over medicated and told Lindsay that she needed to first be put on a medical stabilization program to taper off the drugs so yeah people are just like they turned her away they turned her they did they didn't accept her onto the program they didn't accept her onto the program they didn't but they don't they're just like fuck off they're like this is what you need to do next and they actually do call Nurse Gelata and then there's all this controversy that Nurse Gelata was like didn't call them back and she's like I never got that call and it's just such a lack of like joined up care which again like how many times do we have to say this is such a common occurrence that leads to leads to really really big problems so after this Lindsay went back to being treated by Nurse Gelata and Dr. Tufts and it seems that at least at first the two practitioners didn't know that Lindsay was seeing both of them at the same time and at this point it seems that she was taking about four pills a day as prescribed but she still wasn't getting any better during this period Lindsay Clancy actually called a suicide hotline twice as well but they didn't recommend her for a higher level of care because Lindsay didn't have a plan as to how she was going to kill herself and that again I just is a big big talking point and one that I do agree with like why is it that it's only if the person has a plan that she would be recommended for higher level care if she's calling the hotline twice and like I am feeling suicidal I am going to kill myself and they're like would you have a plan no oh okay well then we can't really like do much for you we can't really escalate this or give you a higher level of care I'm like firstly she could be lying and secondly why is the plan not being recommended for higher level care and secondly why is the plan such like a big differentiator in whether this person needs desperate urgent help or not I don't think myth is quite the right word I think I agree with you I think there is too much emphasis put on that but you do hear medical practitioners talk about it that like the only time you need to be really really worried is if they've got a plan and I just I don't I don't think so no I don't think so people can lie people can lie and someone who doesn't want you to stop their suicide attempt is not going to do that I don't think so I don't think so I don't think so they're not going to tell you that they've got a plan because they know that you're going to try stop them so I don't know I don't get it it's a really sad part of the story because she reaches out for help again in another way and doesn't get any so Lindsay admitted herself to McLean Hospital on the 1st of January 2023 here it took three days for Lindsay to even see a doctor because they were operating with a skeleton staff over the holiday period when Lindsay was eventually seen the doctor noted that her insight and judgment did seem limited Lindsay was suffering from suicidal ideation hopelessness depression she had no appetite no motivation racing thoughts and inability to organize thoughts and insomnia Lindsay was even kept in a locked unit with 15 minute suicide checks but the doctors ruled out postpartum depression postpartum psychosis and bipolar they had pretty much just told her to stop taking the Seroquel and the benzos and prescribed her trazodone yet another type of sleep on the 4th of January Lindsay asked if she could go home it was Cora's birthday and she wanted to be there and the doctors released her Lindsay had one 10 minute follow-up appointment after that it's just so bad because again she's still seeing Dr Tufts she's still seeing Nurse Shalata she's not getting better she calls a suicide hotline she doesn't tell either of them by the way that she's called the suicide hotline she gets turned down she goes to McLean's they take her off some of the drugs they take her off some of the drugs that she's taking off some of the drugs that she's got on and puts her on something else like it's just and nobody is looking at medical records nobody has any idea who else is treating her what drugs she's taking she also doesn't tell them it's just like what's happening and I get it in the US the system is obviously different they don't have universal health care so it's not like one place you can just check a person's like medical records but in some of these places the units are connected they could have pulled her medical records and they don't and also Lindsay doesn't tell them again I get it she's not like the best person yeah but she's bonkers like you you can't rely yes that's what I mean she's not a reliable narrator on someone who is so unwell that they like she's trying everything yes and to feel that shit to have all of those things going on and to be able to identify them and say this is a problem I'm going to hospital that in itself is fucking admirable because like if you're feeling completely hopeless like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't why would you bother you know like but she does and I think that's it's not to be um dismissed I don't think no absolutely not absolutely not and again I don't know maybe this is just me speculating but a lot of people being like oh Patrick was very abusive and it was an abusive household there's things that people are even saying that I don't even really want to say because they're so unfounded in reality maybe I'll say them but I don't know that they're even saying like he was sexually abusing Cora I'm like where's your evidence for any of this they're like he was sexually abusing Cora that's why she was taking Cora to the doctors because Cora kept getting UTIs because she was being sexually abused by Patrick I'm like the doctor literally says Cora was thriving all of the children were happy all of the children were thriving the biggest problem Cora had was she wasn't going to the toilet like what planet are you living on and again the fact that Lindsay is trying so desperately to get better feels to me she's got something to fight for she is in a happy marriage with happy children she has got something to fight for that's why she's taking herself to hospital I don't buy this thing that she's just like she was always in this horrible situation but anyway on the 10th of January 2023 Lindsay went back to Dr Tufts who now put her on Valium but by the 16th of January Lindsay was still suffering with debilitating depression and intrusive thoughts and she said she felt like a zombie now Lindsay never tells anybody that she had thoughts of hurting the children and she never tells any of like other than Patrick and her mum and she never tells any of the clinicians that she's hearing voices but she does tell them repeatedly that she's suicidal and she has intrusive thoughts she says those two things again and again and again and she tells Tufts that she feels like a zombie so Tufts prescribes her another antidepressant on the 20th of January Lindsay reported feeling numb and emotionless and she googled what is a sociopath and is there a cure which I just think is so sad now a lot of people have jumped on this and I think it's a good thing and been like oh my god she's a psychopath she's a sociopath I'm like no she isn't firstly next week we'll talk about how at the trial one of the experts actually gave her the psychopath test the hair psychopath test and said no, she doesn't have fucking psychopathy. She's not a psychopath. She is like, what is wrong with me? Why do I not have any feelings anymore? And she is like, maybe I'm a sociopath. And again, though, look at the next part of that question. Is there a cure? She wants to get better. On the 23rd of January, Lindsay had another appointment with Dr. Tufts, telling her that she felt more anxious. Tufts noted that Lindsay's general psychiatric condition remained unchanged. And she increased Lindsay's antidepressant dose. That night, Lindsay Clancy did not sleep. And the next day, she killed her three children and tried to kill herself. Following the murders and Lindsay's arrest, she and Patrick divorced quickly. He sold the house and moved to New York, where he had maintained a relatively private life until the start of the trial. Patrick has never spoken against Lindsay. In fact, in the aftermath of the killings, Patrick wrote an open letter. In which he told the world that he had forgiven Lindsay and implored everyone else to do the same. Because yes, when this first happened, I know everyone, like the narrative has changed. But when this first happened, Lindsay Clancy was hated woman number one. She was getting so much hate online for murdering these children. And Patrick defends her, which I think everyone's forgotten. Here's what he said. I want to ask all of you to find it deep within yourselves to forgive Lindsay, as I have. The real Lindsay was generously loving and caring toward everyone. Me, our kids, family, friends, and her patients. The very fibres of her soul are loving. All I wish for her now is that she can somehow find peace. I wasn't married to a monster, but to someone who was sick. He's also filed a civil suit against the professionals who treated Lindsay. And he also filed a civil suit against the professionals who treated Lindsay. He also agreed to testify for the defence at trial. I honestly can't really think of a way in which Patrick Clancy could have been there for Lindsay more than he was after these horrific killings, given the unbelievable grief and devastation that he was also enduring having lost his three children and lost his wife as well. But none of this has saved Patrick from the ire of the internet and the TikTok sleuths who are convinced that he is the one who actually killed Cora Dawson Callan and then tried to kill her. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't to kill Lindsay and frame her for these murders and then also somehow managed to convince her that she did it and get her to confess to these crimes. Honestly it's just like as if this case isn't depressing enough it just made me very miserable to read. I think the whole Patrick Clancy is the real killer started to rear its ugly head I noticed around day eight of this trial and it sort of like popped up and at first I just thought it was going to remain this weird sort of fringe theory that no one really pay any attention to but alas I underestimated the internet because why let something as simple as you know something making a lick of fucking sense stand in the way of a good plot twist why would we do that and I really feel like what it is here is as everybody knows I've talked about this before I love a good trashy thriller book I am not ashamed to say it I'll read them all I devour them and the key staple of any such book like this any self-respecting book like this if you are a reader of them like me you will know is a bizarro twist that nobody saw coming right and it's always some evil person who thought they could get away with it all if it wasn't for those meddling kids and they're always so like dastardly and so evil and there's never any evidence of what they've done and they'll secretly mock their victim like behind closed doors and like ah you know I'll never be caught because I thought of everything and there's never any evidence because they're so so cunning and so good at what they're doing and I really think that this like obsession with fantastical twisty crime fiction is now spilling over into the world of true crime and suddenly everyone's like Occam's razor what who evidence what like what it's it's like they're just so sure that this is what happened and I'm like Lindsay Carty confessed she's never said she didn't do it like I just I find it so strange I find the whole thing very strange but yeah I read because of what I'm writing at the moment I've been thinking a lot about conspiracy theory and what that means and what we mean when we call someone a conspiracy theorist and like and I'm not gonna spunk my load you'll have to wait but I read a really interesting article there's a book coming out called lots of people are saying or something like that and it's about this new conspiracism that we live in where anybody can tweet anything and then the retweets themselves make it the truth and that's absolutely what happened here on TikTok absolutely what happened yes and when we're also living in a world where top level government are telling us not to believe the news it feeds itself you know yep a total breakdown and lack of like trust of institutions so it doesn't matter that the prosecution and the defense and the police and everyone are like Lindsay Clancy did it because all of the evidence matches what she says happened and Lindsay Clancy says it she must have she must have been tricked into this whole thing and I think it's really sad because I have a lot of empathy for Lindsay Clancy I understand why people are filled with rage three children are dead I understand that also but Lindsay Clancy whatever you want to say about her she's doing the right thing now she is taking accountability for what she did she isn't hiding away from it she isn't saying I didn't do it something else happened she could say anything because there's fucking people out there who believe her she's taking accountability right and you can say she's not criminally responsible she's not guilty by reason of insanity okay I hear you but she is trying to do the right thing and then for the internet to be like well no Lindsay you've been tricked and manipulated and that isn't really what happened and you're a victim she can be a victim and also the perpetrator of these murders because that's what she's saying so I got the name of the book wrong it's called a lot of people are saying the new conspiracism and the assault on democracy if you google it there is a really good like summary article that comes up that has interviews with the authors who are both political scientists and I think it's a very succinct and comprehensive explanation I found it really helpful yeah and I think absolutely with that kind of conspiracy mindedness like when this popped up on like you know on the internet I really thought it would just go away but it was like it was just feeding itself and like the more people that were sharing it and talking about it talking about it it's like you said it became the truth because of the number of people that were talking about it and I'm like the number of people that believe something or are talking about something doesn't equate to truth and I was like I'm not gonna lie to you like I I was like I'm I'm worried about doing this episode if I'm honest with you because I'm like people are so convinced they know the truth and yesterday I was looking at other podcasts that I respect and have they covered this what what's been going on on their social media on the comments of if they've covered this I just had a little look last podcast on the left talking about it went into the comments my mouth was on the floor my mouth was on the floor and the number of people were like you need to do your research you don't know what you're talking about Patrick Clancy did this Patrick Clancy did this Patrick Clancy did this and same with crime junkie and basically I was just trying to be like who's a reputable source in the world of true crime and like what what are they saying no no one reputable is saying this no one credible is saying this and I think it was just like it was shocking to me I don't know if that's just the vocal like minority of people screaming about it but it was shocking it was shocking no it's like it's scary it's really scary and they have no evidence this is the thing that I was going to say sorry in the comment no one is like because of these reasons these bits of evidence they're just like you haven't done your research there's so many inconsistencies in his storyline and I'm like there's so many inconsistencies in Lindsay's storyline there's so many fucking inconsistencies because as we've said so many times true crime stories unlike a fucking book or a tv show don't perfectly wrap up into a little bow they just don't people forget things people misremember things and also I think it's this weird thing of like fixating on inconsistencies that don't mean anything but because there was an inconsistency insisting that that means that person is lying and it must mean something bigger and I'm like okay you're saying that about the fucking chicken nuggets but what does that prove anyway we'll talk about that next week um let me let me and also with conspiracy theory sorry just to end on this it makes people feel important it makes people feel powerful right makes people feel like they're looking at the rest of us who are like accepting the the government line that Lindsay Clancy did this and they're like you're stupid you stupid fucking sheeple like you don't know I know something and I've spotted something in the timeline and I know that Patrick actually did it that like it's powerful it's a powerful feeling to feel that way I think it is as you said it is encouraging that it's not true crime content creators that are making these comments that is at least something let's go through it point by point no one not a soul is saying that Lindsay Clancy didn't do it including Lindsay Clancy herself her parents Patrick's parents her friends her colleagues her doctors and her defense attorney Kevin Reddington who we will meet in lots of detail next week and you'll see exactly what a bulldog he is I know we've just been slagging off social media but um I have found it very funny that they are all referring to him as big red I think that's fucking incredible big red big red red with a defense counsel like big red on her her team, it seems obvious if there was a whiff of evidence that Patrick or someone else had killed those kids, he would be all over it. In fact, he started his closing statements at trial firmly stating that Lindsay Clancy killed her kids. Lindsay Clancy also does not report having blackouts or not remembering what happened that night. She says that at some point, but she's also given very, very detailed explanations about what happened that evening in her police interviews and also, very importantly, written down in her civil suit. So, you know, Patrick and her are suing the medical practitioners, right? In that civil suit, you can read in detail Lindsay's own words about what she did that night. More on that next week. But this really flies in the face of the idea that somehow Patrick drugged her into oblivion, killed the kids and then framed her. The idea that. The idea that you could just plant memories in someone's head, in Lindsay's head, of murdering her own children just feels, frankly, like sci-fi-ish. Like, it feels very, very implausible to me. And I've seen online, I literally saw online somebody just saying, well, maybe he gave her scopolamine. And I'm like, sure, maybe, maybe he gave her scopolamine. Where's your fucking evidence? Yes, if someone had given someone scopolamine, it would make them more suggestible. But where. Is your evidence. Lindsay's blood was taken in hospital immediately after she was admitted on that night. They took it straight away for the toxicology report. Guess what? They didn't find any fucking scopolamine. They also didn't find any at the house. They also have no evidence or proof or paper trail or even fucking crack dealer way in which Patrick Clancy got his hands on some. So you just saying, maybe he gave her scopolamine. Well, maybe. But like, you have to have evidence for the things you're saying. got the question of why Patrick would let Lindsay live if this was his plan. Because presumably he wanted to murder his kids and frame his wife so he could be free of them. If that's the case, the best thing would have been to let Lindsay die. Make sure you finish the job on your stage to suicide. Why would he call 911 and save her? She was paralysed and near death thanks to hypothermia when the EMTs got there. It wouldn't have taken much longer. There are even questions at trial about why the cuts on Lindsay's wrists and neck weren't deeper. Why would Patrick not do a better job if he was the one that did it? Then there's the fact that the timelines don't make sense. Patrick left the house at around 5.15pm and he arrived at CVS at 5.32pm where he's seen on CCTV. Now yes, there is a 15 minute-ish gap from when he left the house to when he's seen in the CVS. And that drive from his house to CVS should have only taken about three minutes. But there's an email that was sent by Patrick at around this time. Does it make more sense that Patrick drove to CVS, sat in the car park, checked his emails, replied to one of his emails and then went in rather than he killed his family and lied about what time he left to create a window of doubt? Especially when Lindsay texts him the name of the medicine after he leaves because he's like, text me the name of the medicine and I'm going to leave. Like, it just, it's just so like, yes, you can just, you can just say whatever you want, but like, this is the actual evidence. Now, yes, at trial, he's asked about this and he said, maybe, maybe I sent an email. He can't really remember. But to my point, because people are like, he's lying about the email. He set it up as a timed email to go out. Why would he then sit in trial and be like, I don't remember. Maybe I sent an email. Why wouldn't he say, yes, I did. Yes, I absolutely did. That explains this 15 minute gap that everybody on the internet is saying I used to murder my family. He would say, yes, I absolutely did. But he's like, I don't remember. I don't know. And also Lindsay called Patrick while he was in CVS and she was at home. Presumably while she was still alive. So I'm guessing Lindsay Clancy was still alive when Patrick was seen on CCTV in CVS because she's fucking calling him. And I, I'm so glad she called him because he calls her. She doesn't pick up and she phones him back. And yes, there are. People on the internet saying that he planned that call using her Apple watch to call his phone and set it up like an alibi to try and prove that Lindsay was still alive at home. And like I said, they also tried to say that he set up this timed email to set it up as an alibi. And sure, maybe, but the number of mental hoops you have to jump through to keep finding a way in which Patrick really did this just doesn't make loads of sense in reality. Especially when you have someone else who's like, hey, I did it. I did this. I did this. Me. Also, this is the other thing. Lindsay's Apple watch was recording movement at the house when Lindsay was at home and Patrick was on CCTV at CVS. So someone, presumably Lindsay, given that it's her watch, was walking around at home while he was at CVS. So again, presumably she's still alive if she's doing that. Then there's the question of why Patrick was wearing a different coat and shoes when he was spotted on CCTV. TV at 3V. So like we said, he drives from the house to CVS. He gets out. He's seen on CCTV. He comes back to the car. He gets in the car and then he drives to the restaurant 3V. He goes inside and when he's caught on CCTV, he's wearing a different coat. And people also say he's wearing different shoes. I've seen the CCTV from 3V. I'm not convinced they're different shoes. I'm not convinced there's different shoes. Like the CCTV, like, I don't know. But yes, he is very obviously wearing a bigger coat. But I'm like, what does that mean? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What does that prove? It's January in Massachusetts. Maybe he just had it in the car, as you probably would if you live in a very cold climate like that. Maybe put it on because he was cold. Like, I don't get how that proves anything. No. And also, the great thing about a car is it's just a giant handbag. Exactly. Like, what's the big thing about him wearing a bigger coat? Basically, the drive time from CVS to 3V should have been about eight minutes. It takes him a 15. I'm also like, it's snowing. It's snowing in January in Massachusetts. Like, I don't know. Is it that bizarre? Yeah, that's no joke, man. That he would have driven five minutes more slowly to get to the restaurant 3V. And even if you're like, fine, there's a gap. There's an unaccounted for seven minutes. What are people implying? Are you saying that after he left CVS, because we know Lindsay is most likely still alive because our Apple Watch is moving around and she phoned him, that he then went back, killed the kids, and then came back to 3V? Yeah. And what, changed his clothes because they had blood on him? In seven minutes? Like, it just doesn't make any sense. And this is what I mean. People are just like, well, there are inconsistencies. But so what? They're not necessarily indicative of him lying about murder. And then there's the point that Patrick's DNA and fingerprints were found on the exercise bands used to kill the kids. But Lindsay's weren't. The bands belong to the family, all of them. Everybody used them. And forensics found mixed DNA samples that were difficult to separate. They literally say that at trial. They're like, yeah, there was just DNA from all of them. Like, it was very hard to separate the samples. But people are like, aha! Everything in your house where you live has your shit on it. This drives me nuts, man. It would be more suspicious if it wasn't there. It's just like, if Patrick did it, like, I just. Oh my God. I literally, I can't cope. I can't cope. I'm just like, it's, it's, it's Lindsay's, they're not saying Lindsay's DNA is not on there. They're not saying that. They're saying, oh, we just found mixed samples. We found mixed samples, but we found Patrick's samples on there in, in more of like a primary, you know, it was like the leading DNA sample. But I'm like, there's a very clear reason for why that is, which you're going to explain to us, Hannah. Because, as investigators explained, pulling fingerprints off the exercise bands wasn't an easy thing. But also, Patrick took the bands off the exercise bands. He took the bands off the children's necks. So obviously his fingerprints are going to be the most recent ones on there. Yes, that would make sense for why they're the primary fucking DNA sample that's on there. Because he fucking pulled the bands off his children's necks. Another thing that I forgot to mention here, so I'm going to add it in, is that there's been a lot of conversation online about how there were no fingerprints found on the knife. So if Lindsay Clancy cut her own wrists, and neck before jumping out of the window, how come the knife that they found in the master bedroom had no fingerprints on it? Surely that looks pretty suspicious. Surely that means that Patrick did it and then wiped the knife down. But again, the way that this is being spouted online is so misleading. The forensic expert who processed the knife took the stand at the trial and said that he could not pull any fingerprints off the knife because of the ridges on the handle. Some surfaces make pulling prints very difficult. So he said, I could not get any usable fingerprints off the knife, becomes online, there were no fingerprints on the knife. When in reality, they're two totally different situations. But if we must, let's say he did do it. Why then would Patrick support and defend Lindsay both online and after the killings and at trial? Surely it would be better for him, given that he'd been stupid enough to let her survive, to just let her be the ultimate villain and distance himself and keep his head down. But he doesn't. He does the exact opposite. And all Also, why would Lindsay Clancy be covering for him? Was she so drugged into oblivion that she doesn't know what happened? Well, if that's true, how is she so clear on the details? And also, why doesn't the toxicology report support any of this? That report showed that Lindsay did have seven different medications in her system, all of the ones that she had been prescribed, but only one of them was at an elevated level. None were at a toxic one. And that's important, and we will come back to it next week when we get into the Commonwealth's case. But again, for the Patrick Did It crowd, where is the evidence of him drugging her? I didn't want to bring this up at the beginning until I had a bit more info, but one of the videos I saw, against my will, that was served to me, was someone saying that Patrick Clancy is Chris Watts. And I was like. Like, literally? Well, they were using it as. This is where I think you're kind of. Spot on when you're talking about this, like, search for the plot twist thing, is comparing cases that have happened at some point in history in the world and being like, this is exactly that one. So they're saying, like, Patrick Clancy is another Chris Watts. All of the motives that Chris Watts had for doing the despicable things he did, including concealing bodies, by the way, which Patrick is obviously not doing. You cannot compare, even if, even in a world where, Patrick Clancy did do it, which is not the world that we live in, even if, he's nothing like Chris Watts. To just have these, like, totem pole cases that everyone's like, oh, well, it's exactly like that one, and therefore all of the things happened that happened in the Chris Watts case is completely bizarre. Like, it doesn't make any logical sense. And this is what's making me feel, like, sad, because True Crime, Hannah, you and I have always said that True Crime fans are some of the most discerning fans out there. Like, if you are going to plunge into this world and start talking about cases, you better fucking know your shit. And I'm sure there's thousands of people screaming in the comments that I haven't done my research, like, sure, whatever. Ah, yeah, but they say that every week. Oh, of course. Like, I know that I have. You know, they're a very discerning audience, which is what we've always said. I am hoping that this isn't the downgrading of real True Crime knowledgeable fans who know their fucking shit. They know stuff like this about. Mixed DNA samples and how difficult it can be to pull those things apart, about timelines, about inconsistencies not necessarily being the be-all and end-all. Like, we know this about people. And they wouldn't make comparisons to. If Patrick Clancy had done this, he's not the same profile of killer as Chris Watts. Very fundamentally so. He's a very different type of killer. So even making those comparisons, it just feels like this kind of dumbing down and the lowest common denominator of True Crime entering the conversation in this case. And that is what's making me feel like. That's what's making me feel so, like, despondent about it, because. No, it's really concerning. The level of analysis, the level of critical thinking, the level of, like, ability to understand evidence is really, really. In some places, great, fantastic. And I'm not saying that you're saying, oh, because you agree with them. I'm saying because they're making reasoned arguments. And again, I'm so glad to see that reputable True Crime podcasters, content creators that I follow are not going anywhere near this conspiracy theory. But so many people. People are, and it's really, it's really scary. It's really scary, but that's where we are. And another thing, I know we spoke earlier about the 911 call and how it hasn't been released to the public, but we do get at trial people who heard it talking about it. Because it was played at trial for the jury, but we don't get to hear that, but we have people who come and describe what was said. And I thought one of the really interesting things that was said in this 911 call is how the way Patrick speaks and the things that he says basically, like, are totally the polar opposite to other cases we see where that person. Who makes a 911 call ends up later becoming, like, the main suspect or even actually being convicted of the murder. And one of the things that stood out the most for me in the description is that when he phones 911, the first thing he says is not establishing an alibi, which is, we've heard that so many times. Or he's like, I just got home from CVS. I'm picking up some takeaway and I found my wife on the floor. He straight away, send an ambulance. My wife has tried to kill herself. No, like, trying to mitigate where he was, create like this, oh, look over here. None of that. Straight into it. I need help. Right. Which, again, screams to me of truthfulness. And there are outright lies being hoiked around about Patrick. There's a widely circulated one that Patrick got remarried four months after the murders, and that is just not true. He did get remarried three years later. And you can think that that's too quick. But, like, what is normal after a trauma like this? And it's really not. Statistically speaking, it's not. Is it not also a trauma response? Like, he's alone in the world now. Like, is it that shocking that he would look for another person? No. I don't know. Even men remarry faster than women do. They just do. It's a fact. Three years is not an inconceivable amount of time, I don't think. And there are people who are dragging Patrick's new wife into all of this. And there are people posting pictures of her and people comparing her to Lindsay and asking what sort of woman would marry Patrick after what had happened. So, therefore, she must have been in on the whole thing and they must have been having an affair behind Lindsay. And Lindsay's back and then killed the kids and tried to kill her so they could be together. But there's just no evidence of that. None. Not one single bit of an evidence of anything like that at all. But apparently, Patrick screaming, she's killed the fucking kids, is because he hated his children. What? Apparently, him saying, killed the fucking kids, it shows his contempt for his children. No, I understand. Yeah, sorry. Just disbelieving. Just in case anyone was. Oh, my God. Actually, this happened to be. I've started baking pots and I was making my little pot. And the girl next to me, everyone was talking about what their jobs are. And this one girl was like, oh, my God, I love true crime. And then she started talking about the Idaho student murders, which obviously we've done, but that's really your wheelhouse, that case. You spent so long, like. So, I don't know off the top of my head the details. Sleep paralysis demon. Quite. I didn't have enough retaliation to the situation. To what she said next. But she was saying some. And I was like, hold on, do you think Brian Koberger didn't do it? And she was like, I think he was involved, but I think the girls in the house were in on it. And I was like, how? And she said, well, they were Googling job vacancies in the morning. And who does that when you found a body? And I was like, that. What? Who does that after they've committed a murder? Like, what a ridiculous thing to say. It's exactly what you've been talking about. But hanging on to one thing that you, for some reason, have decided just would be impossible in that scenario and then ignoring literally everything else. I need to go lie down after this. I'm not even exaggerating. The level of discourse on this is just making me sad. It's just like, oh, I just can't. I can't cope. It's really bad. Oh, God. Okay, let's keep going because we just have to plow on. Because then there's the lie that Patrick Clancy showed absolutely no emotion when the 911 call was played at trial. They're like, he just sat there. He didn't show an ounce of emotion. Well, guess what? He wasn't in the room when they played the 911 call. And if you'd have watched the trial, you'd fucking know that. Because he left the room. He testified. And then as soon as he was done, he knew the next thing they were going to do because he would have been told is play the 911 call. And guess what? He fucking. Ran out of there. So that he didn't have to listen to what was undoubtedly the worst moment of his entire fucking life. And then there's people saying, oh, he didn't seem upset enough when he was testifying either. And I'm like, well, I guess that's subjective. Like, what do you mean upset enough? And I do also wonder if people, these people who are saying this were like watching a different man give testimony. Because I watched it. And we're going to watch bits of it next week. To me, Patrick Clancy. Clancy looked like a man who was doing everything in his power to hold it together. Yes, he has a very shallow affect. Yes, he's speaking very like, I don't know, like very like, like, okay, yeah, this I have to get through. Because I think it's a man who looks like he's sedated himself to get through this horrific situation that he's faced with. Yes. I really, really didn't get the impression that it was emotionless. It seemed so sad. And then there are people who, talk about her, Patrick being a shit husband. Apparently he went skiing and out to brunch and on a work trip during the four months that Lindsay was suffering. But let's be clear. Lindsay also went with him to friends' houses and family events. She went to the gym regularly. And she and Patrick even ran a marathon together after Callan was born. Yes, he did go on a two-day work trip. And yes, he went skiing after he dropped Lindsay off at one of her hospital appointments. But he took Cora, their daughter, with him. But, you know, you can slice it however you want. Was this a father trying to give his daughter some semblance of normality while her mother was struggling and disconnected? Or is it a neglectful husband? I think for me, all the evidence I need that Patrick is a supportive husband is that he goes to Lindsay, to the nurse, and he's like, this is not working. And he goes with her and he says it's 10,000 times worse. Also, this is going on over a long period of time. you can't expect somebody somebody who's got three kids to not go to work and to just shut themselves in a windowless turret and rend garments about it like life has to happen he's got children i don't i don't think any of that is no i don't think it is and they had an active life together like like said they ran a marathon they go skiing he took chorus skiing it's like he was just off on a fucking jolly he took his five-year-old daughter like why would you begrudge her that like it's just so strange to me and i also think all of this stuff about him being a neglectful husband ignores everything else patrick tried to do to get lindsey help for example he tells her that she didn't need to go back to work when her anxiety was peaking around the time that she was meant to go back after maternity leave he says don't go back to work he tells her we can make it work on my salary he also says let's get a nanny to help you with the kids and then he even told lindsey if the insurance won't cover a certain treatment because lindsey and we know this from google searches and things she was talking about and writing about she wanted to look into things like ketamine therapy which had been you know she'd done her research and she thought it could really help her but it wasn't covered under insurance and patrick was like that's fine we'll find a way to pay for it but even if let's say none of that's true and even if patrick was a deadbeat husband you still need evidence that he killed the kids you can even blame him for what happened and say that you know he was a deadbeat husband and he was a deadbeat husband and he was a you know he didn't do enough to get the kids away from her or anything like that but that doesn't equate to him actually killing the kids and then trying to kill lindsey and then framing her and those people there are people out there saying that they think patrick should be charged with something because he didn't stop her from killing the kids like manslaughter or something like that i don't think you understand how the law works like that's not how someone would be charged in that case lindsey was seen repeatedly being charged with something like that and she was treated by medical professionals she wasn't kept under lock and key at home and refused treatment or anything like that like this is not an andrew yates situation with that regard she's not even andrew yates or a doctor but you know what i mean she's not isolated in that way lindsey glancy was seeing doctor after doctor after doctor this is not that kind of thing where patrick was standing in the way of her getting medical treatment like it's a very strange thing to say i think there's a lot of anger and a lot of projection that i see in the discourse around this case and sure it's a very strange thing to say i think there's a lot of anger and a lot of projection that i see in but extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and i haven't seen a fucking wink of it and yes there are also many people saying well patrick clancy just needs to be investigated he was investigated the police invested do you think the police wouldn't have investigated of course they fucking investigated him and then they say there are so many inconsistencies in his story yes there are but there are also as i said inconsistencies in lindsey's story there will always be inconsistencies in people's stories when they are talking about highly traumatic events the point is do those inconsistencies actually prove anything to me not really and i haven't seen as i said a single credible person or source make a coherent argument that makes sense regarding patrick's guilt even now in hindsight no one who actually knew the clancy's was like yeah something was a bit off they were an ordinary happy family who pulled together during a crisis and that's what's even more sad and terrifying lindsey clancy didn't slip through the cracks she had access to health care at some of the best hospitals in the world and she didn't slip through the cracks facilities in the u.s and she had insurance she had a husband who clearly loved and supported her and a family who were there for her and remain there for her today even her ex-in-laws testified in her defense yet despite all of this lindsey clancy fell off the deep end and ended up killing her three children i really thought this case would end up being about big pharma over medicalization the mental health system and women's care in general particularly around postpartum i thought it would put all of those topics under the spotlight and that's what we'd be talking about but it's all just been derailed by these crazy conspiracy theories that are rooted in absolutely nothing and also as i said what's also been completely forgotten about this is the three children who were fucking murdered i guess i must have so much contempt for these children sorry these children who were murdered and also i think what i don't think anybody's going to be able to understand is that these children are bar you obviously has taken into account is that having three kids stressful enough having three kids and a wife you're concerned at any moment could top herself is an incredibly high pressure environment to be in and like and he's still working as well he's still working he's not drinking himself to death this period of time would also have been impossibly hard for patrick as well and i don't think that can be just struck from the record you know and you're right there was no signs of any destructive behavior he's spending time with his kids blah blah blah i don't know whatever but before we get into the trial next week let's finish off today's episode by talking about not guilty by reason of insanity in massachusetts where it is actually called lack of criminal responsibility most states in the u.s use the mcnaughton rule for claims of not guilty by reason of insanity god i'd forgotten about that bloody hell the mcnaughton rule our old friend is also called the right wrong test and it requires that the defendant at the time of committing the act of which they are accused was laboring under such a defective reason from disease of the mind that they did not understand the nature and quality of the act they were doing or did or they didn't know what they were doing was wrong richard chase is the best example of that so the questions we have to look at are did the killer know what they were doing full stop or did they know what they were doing was wrong and by wrong under mcnaughton it means legally or morally so did the accused know that what they were doing was illegal so against the law or did they know that what they were doing was something that society views as immoral so morally wrong though there are of course also distinctions in place and there are also distinctions in place and there are also distinctions in place under the mcnaughton rule that would allow for a defendant to argue that while they knew what they did was legally wrong they thought what they were doing was morally right due to the delusions they were suffering under at the time for example andrea gates was eventually found not guilty by reason of insanity after she killed her five children because she believed that she had to kill them to save them from going to hell she knew it was legally wrong but she thought it was morally right crucially with the mcnaughton rule the defendant is presumed to be sane and the burden of proof is on the defense the defense must actively prove that the accused was legally insane at the time of the offense only on the balance of probabilities not beyond a reasonable doubt but still yeah it's very important that under mcnaughton the defense has to prove on the balance of probabilities that the person was insane under the law in massachusetts where lindsey clancy's trial took place it is honestly much softer on the defendant there is no burden of proof at all on the defense to prove insanity they just have to produce some evidence to create some reasonable doubt about lindsey's criminal responsibility the burden of proof in massachusetts is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that lindsey clancy is criminally responsible i.e that she was not insane sane. That is quite tough. Proving a negative is quite tough, but that's the standard. And basically, the way in which the prosecution would do this is either by showing at the time of the crime, the accused did not suffer from a mental defect or disease at all. And bizarrely, the Commonwealth in this case do actually try that a bit. It's very strange. I don't think anyone, even Lindsay's harshest critics, could say that she wasn't mentally ill at the time. I think that's pretty well established. And they do abandon this notion by the end because it's such a wild stretch to ask a jury to believe that she wasn't mentally ill. And they didn't need to anyway, because they could still get a guilty verdict if the state proved beyond a reasonable doubt that despite Lindsay Clancy's mental disease or defect, she nonetheless retained the substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness or criminality of her conduct or the ability to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law. Yeah. And that's like a big, big difference here, other than who has the burden of proof in Massachusetts. So basically, they have to prove that the mental disease or defect that she had didn't stop her knowing that killing her kids was wrong or criminal, so morally wrong or illegal. Or, and this is the added bit in Massachusetts that's also different, that even if she did know it was morally and legally wrong, her mental disease prevented her from being able to stop her from killing her kids. So that's a big, big difference here. Yeah. And that's like a big, big difference here. Other than who has the burden of proof in Massachusetts, she doesn't stop herself from killing them anyway. So she knows it's wrong, but she's still doing it because she cannot stop herself because of the mental defect. And for example, that would be like hearing a voice that is so overpowering and controlling that she couldn't ignore it without acting on it. And there are a lot of people online asking why this even went to trial in the first place, because Lindsay was so obviously suffering from postpartum psychosis. But she doesn't have the diagnosis. That's meaningless. And even if she had been, that only meets the first requirement of the law, which is that she had a mental disorder. It doesn't automatically give her a not guilty. someone can be in psychosis but still appreciate right from wrong morally or legally and someone could still be hearing voices and choose to ignore them i.e conforming their behavior to the law mental illness doesn't remove all agency and it's a really dangerous idea to suggest otherwise and even psychosis doesn't it doesn't automatically mean that you weren't able to control yourself or didn't know it was right or wrong because again that's a very dangerous thing to say for anyone who's suffering with psychosis that oh well you know you can't possibly know what you're doing like it's just not true so next week we will get into the trial and it is an eventful one as you can imagine we'll hear from patrick clancy his parents lindsey's mother the doctors who treated lindsey and experts on both sides and of course we'll also be taking a look at all the notes that lindsey wrote in her own words about what transpired in the months leading up to these brutal killings and we will finish off with what we think happened next week in the second and final episode of our case on lindsey clancy thank you for listening that was a big one we'll see you next week and then we will never talk about this again goodbye goodbye your vehicle doesn't just get you from here to there it's a bridge to the people and places that matter most it's how you show up for your family your community and everyone else that depends on you that's why for 125 years firestone has been building tires with one thing in mind to deliver products that are as reliable as you are firestone always dependable since 1900 picture this you're with your spouse at a seaside botanical garden moss hangs low but your spirits are high and you've never felt more in love this is when it hits you that myrtle moment it's the second everything clicks when you realize myrtle beach is more than a getaway it's right where you belong don't just daydream about it find your own myrtle moment at visit myrtlebeach.com you know that moment when everything lines up when life gives you the green light and you just go that's the 2026 toyota camry no hesitation no friction just a car that's right there with you ready responsive in control the whole way through because when it's your moment you shouldn't have to think twice the 2026 toyota camry go like you mean it test drive at your local toyota dealer or visit toyota.com today toyota let's go places see packages and options at toyota.com for future availability